Guest Bio
Claire Copeman is the co-founder of Adventure Tours UK, a Denbighshire-based adventure travel company that offers bespoke sustainable adventures across the United Kingdom. With a background in marketing, Claire transitioned into the travel industry to share her passion for the UK’s wild spaces. Her dedication to promoting responsible tourism and creating immersive experiences has positioned Adventure Tours UK as a leader in sustainable travel. In recognition of her entrepreneurial achievements, Claire was named ‘Start-Up Entrepreneur of the Year for Wales’ at the Great British Entrepreneur Awards.
Show Summary
In this episode, Claire Copeman discusses her journey from a successful marketing career to co-founding Adventure Tours UK. She shares insights into the challenges and rewards of establishing a travel company focused on sustainability and authentic experiences. Claire also delves into the importance of connecting travelers with nature and how Adventure Tours UK curates adventures that leave a positive impact on both the environment and local communities.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Passion-Driven Entrepreneurship – Transitioning from a different industry to follow one’s passion can lead to fulfilling and impactful ventures.
- ✓ Sustainable Tourism – Integrating eco-friendly practices is essential for preserving destinations and supporting local communities.
- ✓ Authentic Experiences – Curating genuine interactions with nature and culture enhances traveler satisfaction and promotes responsible travel.
- ✓ Resilience in Business – Navigating challenges, such as the global pandemic, requires adaptability and a strong commitment to core values.
- ✓ Community Engagement – Collaborating with local partners ensures that tourism benefits are shared and cultural heritage is respected.
What You’ll Find on Adventure Tours UK’s Platform
- ✓ Diverse Adventure Packages – A variety of multi-activity vacations, including hiking, cycling, and wellness retreats across the UK.
- ✓ Customized Group Tours – Tailored experiences for corporate groups, families, and solo travelers seeking unique adventures.
- ✓ Responsible Travel Initiatives – Commitment to low carbon holidays and partnerships with local conservation projects.
- ✓ Inspiration Blog – Stories, guides, and tips to help travelers prepare for and make the most of their adventure holidays.
- ✓ Gift Vouchers – Options to gift unforgettable adventure experiences to friends and loved ones.
Learn more about Adventure Tours UK and connect with Claire at:
https://adventuretoursuk.com/
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Jason Elkins (00:01.646)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the big world made small adventure travel podcast. Today we’ve got Claire Copeman. Claire is the co -founder of Adventure Tours UK. This is the second time I’ve spoken with her now and first time was a real joy. So I asked her to come back and record the conversation so everybody else can kind of learn a little bit about Claire and what she’s doing. Claire, welcome to the show.
Claire Copeman (00:26.08)
Hi Jason, thank you for having me, it’s great to be here today.
Jason Elkins (00:30.576)
So happy to have you here. Where are you located right now?
Claire Copeman (00:36.502)
We’re in North Wales in the UK, so just in the hills of North Wales, which is a beautiful place to be.
Jason Elkins (00:45.828)
What’s the weather like there generally? I’ve never been to Wales. I’ve been to the south of England, so I have not been that far north. So I’m just curious. We’re speaking in August. What is the weather doing in Wales in August?
Claire Copeman (00:57.918)
Well, any other year I would probably say it’s quite nice and warm and sunny outside but the UK is not having its best summer so today is not a typical day in fact I think we’re getting the tail end of the hurricane from the US at the moment so today is not a typical August day but normally it’s lovely and if you’ve been to the south of England it’s not that much different yes it does get a little bit cooler as you travel north and we’re up in the hills so
Jason Elkins (01:07.458)
you
Jason Elkins (01:14.955)
wow.
Claire Copeman (01:27.186)
it is that little bit cooler again, but actually it’s generally pretty good.
Jason Elkins (01:34.18)
Do you believe I kind of have a story in my head around the weather in Wales? I think of it as cold and rainy and pretty much all the time. It’s just the story in my head and I know it’s not like that. So if I’ve got that story in my head, maybe there’s someone else listening to this that kind of has that story in their head as well and thinks, well, why would I ever want to go there? So what can you do to help erase that?
Claire Copeman (01:57.302)
Do you know what I think, I mean, we get asked about the weather all the time. And I just had that question from one of our trade clients today saying, should we do a tour in April or August? What will the weather be like in April 25 or August 25? And I thought, I have no idea. If anybody could predict that, we’d make a fortune. I think one of the reasons the weather stands out so much in Wales is because we’re always outdoors. It’s such a…
beautiful place to get out and experience the outdoors, to climb those mountains, to go kayaking, to play in the rivers. You notice the weather because you’re outdoors all the time because it is such a stunning landscape. Who notices the weather in London? You’re generally indoors.
Jason Elkins (02:42.22)
Okay. Gotcha. No, that’s a, that’s, that’s a good point. I’m happy that you said a lot of people ask you that because now I feel like it was a good question. Maybe someone else listening to this was, was kind of thinking the same thing. Do now that being said, are you offering tours year round and what, what changes with the tours, seasonally?
Claire Copeman (03:05.61)
We do, we do tours all year round. We are certainly busiest in the summer. Most people do want to travel here and that was one of the things that I was saying to my client earlier today that actually August is probably more popular. But I think there’s a misconception sometimes about the weather might be better. But I say the first thing I say to everybody is please don’t book a holiday. Please don’t book a
Jason Elkins (03:29.68)
It’s just because there’s a lot of Europeans, right? Maybe it’s because there’s a lot of Europeans that take their vacation in August, right?
Claire Copeman (03:37.29)
There is, yes, but I think there’s also this preconception that the weather will be better in August. And I just say, don’t base booking your holiday on weather. Just bring kit for every season, no matter when you travel. But we also run tours in the autumn. The autumn is beautiful. It’s much quieter everywhere. You get the gorgeous autumn leaves on the trees, so golden reds and browns. And it’s just a lovely.
place to be. Where I am in North Wales we’ve got heather that’s in bloom all over the mountainside at that time of year as well so just get this gorgeous kind of purple glow from the hills. And winter you know if you like to get off the beaten path and go and explore in the snow then you know you can head up to Scotland or head into Snowdonia and there’s great places to explore all year round.
Jason Elkins (04:30.116)
Very cool. You said something that kind of piqued my interest, and I’m going to ask. You said that the heather is blooming in the fall?
Claire Copeman (04:39.774)
Yeah, August through September time. I always think that by, it’s out now. So it’s August now that Heather is out in bloom. But come September, I find that you tend to get, as the days start to shorten, you get some really incredible sunsets and that golden sunset over a purple hill, hillside of Heather is just the most magical thing to see. And I’m very lucky that, you know, my drive, you know, from the supermarket will take me over the Moors.
and I get to see that kind of sunset all the time but it’s a beautiful thing to see and for me I think that kind of early autumn time is just magical.
Jason Elkins (05:19.952)
That’s very interesting. I show my ignorance here. I think of flowers blooming in the spring. So when you’re speaking of kind of that autumn with the flowering heathers, just kind of, I’m sure it happens other places. just thought, so anyway, let’s change the subject. Okay, so as we’re gonna get into the business, I definitely wanna speak a little bit more about whales. Got quite a few things that I’d like to chat with you about.
But first I want to start with I want to help the listeners and myself kind of understand your story Typically when I’m speaking with someone here on the show They’ve got an interesting story of how they got into doing what they’re doing because what you’re doing is not the norm You know, it’s it’s it’s out kind of outside of the norm a little bit So I’d like to go back in the past a little bit as far as you want to go and help me understand How did you get into this type of work?
Claire Copeman (06:16.918)
It’s good question. It’s not. It was never a plan. It wasn’t what I set out to do. And historically, I did not have a career in travel. My career was actually in marketing. I spent 20 years working agency side for marketing and in creative agencies and integrated agencies working with all kinds of clients from.
Bupa, &S Bank, through to British Cycling, Liverpool Football Club, all sorts of big names, certainly big here in the UK. And my last agency was a digital agency and I spent five years there. And I guess I climbed to the top as far as I could. I was on the senior management team and as a woman in a very male dominated environment, I was very proud that I’d…
managed to, I guess, break through that glass ceiling to an extent and I’d reached that point, but the company I was working for was not a particularly nice place to be. It was quite a toxic environment and we had been sold by one big PLC to another big PLC and they proceeded to tear the company down around us, to be honest. So it was a challenging time. On the one hand, I was
really proud that I’d made it to the senior management team and I’d got that level of seniority and responsibility that I’d spent, you know, 16, 18 years at that point working towards. And I got there and my job really turned into probably on every few months being handed a spreadsheet of names of my colleagues and being asked to decide who should lose their job next. And for me, that was, it was really hard and
I think I started to take a long hard look at where I’d ended up and I’d been in such a fun career for so long in marketing. And then now it just turned into something that I couldn’t put my heart and soul into. I didn’t believe in what we were doing. I didn’t believe in the company and I felt that I just needed to get out of there. And the latest round of redundancies was happening around the time of our wedding. So I was trying on the one hand to be excited and get ready for our wedding and
Claire Copeman (08:31.144)
all of my team and a lot of people in my office, they were all invited to the wedding. And then I was having to also sit down with them and have exit interviews about the fact they might lose their job. And it really didn’t sit very well. So I decided to request voluntary redundancy. And I just said, I’m out. I don’t want this to mar my wedding. This is, I’m not a big, I’m not the kind of girl that’s ever dreamt of a big white wedding. You know, never, you know, it was a very…
rustic affair, but it was still my big day and I didn’t want it to be overshadowed by everything that was going on with work. So I decided if I wanted to make sure it didn’t get me down and ruin things, I would take control and leave, take myself out of the situation if I couldn’t change the situation. So I put in for voluntary redundancy and I then we
Jason Elkins (09:17.892)
Good for you. Good for you.
Claire Copeman (09:23.348)
Had some time off, got married, went off on a little mini moon down in Devon and Cornwall. And when I came back, I had three days at work before they confirmed that I would be leaving, which was fantastic. So I took all the Paseco that was left over from the wedding. I went into work. We all got very drunk on the last day. Quite a few of us left that day. And my husband always jokes that he married this high flying career woman and within less than a week I was unemployed.
Jason Elkins (09:49.782)
You quit.
Claire Copeman (09:52.294)
So the world is my oyster really and I had an opportunity to think about what I wanted to do next and I think I’d fallen out of love with the industry I was in in marketing but at the same time some of our friends who we met whilst traveling because we myself and my husband have always loved traveling around the world were really active we’d go scuba diving and on one of our trips to Bonaire in the Caribbean we’d made friends with a couple of Dutch, sorry Danish guys.
stayed in touch with them, became good friends and they came to the wedding. Whilst they were here, we wanted to say thank you for joining us. So we took them out a couple of days after the wedding. We went for a little drive. We went off into Aruri, or Snowdonia National Park and we drove through the mountains of the Ogden Valley and we stopped at a little cafe and we went ziplining and we did all these things. And that night over a few drinks, we got talking and they were…
absolutely blown away by how amazing Wales is. And what really got them was that they had both not only just traveled most of the world, they both lived in England and traveled to Scotland and yet never heard of Wales. And they couldn’t understand how this beautiful part of the world was just so unknown. And so after a few drinks, a slightly crazy idea came about, which was involving basically
bringing Danish people to Wales. And the next morning we all thought, ha ha, that was quite funny, wasn’t it? But there was a little seed planted, I guess, at that point. And obviously I didn’t have much to do at that point. Had time on my hands. So we started to do some research, started looking into it. My husband runs a mountain bike center. So he’s been very well connected with Visit Wales and our local tourism bodies for a long time and worked with a lot of the big adventure.
providers and attractions here in Wales. So we knew that there was actually a real, there’s so much promise here and there’s a lot of day visits to Wales, but multi -day has always been a real challenge for it. And then looking at some of the stats released from Visit Britain, for example, I was looking at the numbers and I could see that in back in 2018, this was pre -COVID.
Claire Copeman (12:13.27)
There was 38 million inbound visitors into the UK and only 2 % went to Wales. And I was just absolutely dumbfounded by the fact that so few people know about this part of the world. I’m not Welsh by the way, I’m actually English. I was born and bred in England and I moved to Wales about 15 years ago when I met my husband.
But I was blown away by the fact that so few people come here. And I was also quite angered by the fact that the top reasons for all of those people visiting the UK were for sightseeing, shopping and football. And they have their place, don’t get me wrong, but there’s far better things to do here in the UK. And so I think that immediately got me quite riled and I found this little fire in my belly and I thought, right, this is what I’m going to do. We’ve got an opportunity here to create.
multi -day holidays here in the UK, getting people from all around the world into the most amazing world spaces that we’ve got to offer across Wales and Scotland and England. So it was not a plan, it just kind of came about.
Jason Elkins (13:27.184)
Wow. So many, so many questions. And before we go any further, I want to ask you from your perspective, what was getting in the way of more multi -day trips in Wales? mean, you mentioned that people weren’t going there. Only 2 % of the people were going to Wales. What do you think it was that was getting in the way? Was it just poor marketing or perceptions about Wales or
What’s the, what was the biggest challenge or what is maybe still the biggest challenge that you need to overcome to get more visitors to Wales.
Claire Copeman (14:01.184)
I would say it’s definitely still a challenge. If anything, since COVID, it’s actually got a little bit tougher, I think. But I think Wales is, so obviously the UK is made of four devolved nations, we count Northern Ireland as well, of course. And each government has its own destination management organisation and its own pot of funding. And Scotland and England have notoriously quite large.
funding pots available and Wales has less, we’re quite a small nation. And I think I work really closely with Visit Wales and the team there are fantastic. They’ve been so supportive of us from the outset and I love working with them, but I also know how stretched they are as a team and they do brilliant stuff, but they’re doing it with a lot less means than some of our counterparts elsewhere in the UK. And I think that is part of it, but also I think, you
England really is, England’s tourism if you like, is carried by London. Actually if you split out the figures, which I don’t have right in front of me, but if you split out the figures the vast majority of those visitors traveling into England are going to London and not necessarily venturing outside of that. And Scotland is I guess a little similar with Edinburgh being such a honeypot, but actually there’s the whole west coast of Scotland which has just become so famous and
There’s so many iconic TV shows as well, I think, that have been filmed in Scotland now. And there’s always been this, from a US point of view, that kind of Celtic connection that people want to go back to their roots. And I think for that, so many people, particularly from North America, have made Scotland a big destination. Same as Ireland is as well, the Republic of Ireland, that has such a big draw for North American guests. you know, actually Wales has obviously very strong Celtic roots as well. But it’s just not had that same…
Jason Elkins (15:46.384)
Mm
Claire Copeman (15:54.994)
exposure over that period of time. I think what’s been really interesting and will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years is the biggest game changer by far is what’s happened with Wrexham Football Club, which was bought a few years ago now by Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney. So obviously two big Hollywood stars very randomly bought the football club that is half an hour’s drive down the road from me that
in a town that is really quite disadvantaged is not a hotspot by any means. I’ve spent 15 years living just outside Wrexham and always saying, yes, I live in Clenon, near Chester. So nobody ever really talks about Wrexham. And yet suddenly this town, well city now, actually it’s now gained city status, has been put on the map and it’s on the Disney channel. can watch it’s Welcome to Wrexham. I think the show is called.
There’s a whole TV show about this takeover by Ryan Reynolds and Rob Mucklehenny and now people are recognising Wales as a nation in its own right with its own cultural identity, its own language, its own history and I think over the next few years we are going to start to see a real ripple effect from that.
Jason Elkins (17:15.46)
Very cool. think that what you’re touching on there is important because when I think of Scotland or Ireland, a lot of, mean, I’ve been to Ireland and, still, I think a lot of people kind of have this picture based on movies that they’ve watched way back to even, I remember there was a John Wayne movie filmed in central Ireland. I don’t even remember it, but I know, I know my parents remember it. but the movies is, you know, Scotland.
you know, Braveheart, things like that that have come out. So what I hear you saying is maybe Wales needs to have a big movie come out as well. Maybe Ryan Reynolds will do a movie about, you know, Wales or something that that would that would be helpful. And I remember.
Claire Copeman (17:59.752)
I haven’t seen it yet, but the latest Deadpool does have one of the players from Wrexham AFC features in it.
So he has brought a little bit of Wales into the latest Deadpool. And actually Wales has been the location for quite a few films, but I think it’s not been, somehow not caught the same wave as the likes of Outlander. And you you’ve got, I’m just looking at a trip for somebody at the moment that’s.
Jason Elkins (18:09.411)
really? Okay, yeah.
Claire Copeman (18:31.463)
got the the Downton Abbey locations in it. I think there’s some big hits out there which have then really put the location on the map and I think Wales has had a number of TV and films based here or certainly filmed here in parts but they’ve not necessarily been the ones that have hit the top of the charts and therefore it’s not quite broken through yet.
Jason Elkins (18:55.022)
curious if someone listening to this right now is like whales is kind of just they’re not really sure they just don’t quite get it they haven’t maybe seen or don’t remember seeing one of these movies is there a particular movie or TV show you mentioned the one about the football team is there anything particular that someone should go to Netflix or onto YouTube and search out to get kind of a feel for for what it’s all about or should they just give you a call and book a trip
Claire Copeman (19:22.346)
Yeah, give me a call and book a trip because my TV and film knowledge is awful and the only thing that’s springing to mind, and this might be quite a British TV programme, but on Netflix there was a brilliant series called Sex Education, which is like set in a high school. Yeah, that’s film. That’s around the South Wales and Wye Valley area. Yeah, if you walk off as Dyke Pass…
Jason Elkins (19:24.229)
Hahaha
Jason Elkins (19:37.953)
yeah, yeah, yeah. That was in Wales,
Jason Elkins (19:45.996)
Okay.
Claire Copeman (19:47.304)
Offers Dyke Path is a really famous long -distance trail that runs the border between England and Wales and at the southern end you’ve got all the filming locations for sex education.
Jason Elkins (19:59.416)
All right, cool. That actually was kind of a kind fun show to watch. I saw that. So yeah. All right. Very cool. I didn’t mean to put you on the spot there. just was I was just curious because movies do people do like to I mean, I know I do. I when I’m getting thinking about going somewhere, I do a lot of YouTube. I’ll just go on YouTube and watch stuff. There’s a documentary about the Andes Mountains, you know, the magical Andes on on Netflix. That’s just like so incredibly inspiring. So
Claire Copeman (20:04.81)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (20:29.346)
So I know some people like to do that. So I appreciate you giving us an answer. But more importantly, you don’t really experience it unless you go. So it sounds like they just need to go. A couple other things.
Claire Copeman (20:38.74)
No, absolutely.
And actually, do you know, one of the things about, I was just going to say one of the things about Wales is that although it’s often not at the top of people’s list because they haven’t heard about it, I have never met anyone that’s been here and not been bowled over by it. And it’s funny how many people want to come back here. Interestingly, I’ve found in the last couple of years, we’ve had quite a few requests from people specifically asking for a tailor -made holiday in Wales.
Jason Elkins (20:47.012)
Go ahead.
Claire Copeman (21:10.442)
which always surprises me because most of our tailor -made requests are for Scotland or maybe North England. But when they come in for Wales, it always pricks my ears and I ask why, how did they know about it, what’s made them want to come here? And it’s funny how so many people maybe came here on a school trip when they were younger. And I’m talking people from elsewhere in Europe, you know, have traveled on an overseas trip and came to Wales and it’s really stuck with them.
and they’ve always wanted to come back. And now that they’re older, they’re married, they’ve got their own children. They want their children to experience Wales. And I think there’s something really lovely about that, that so many of us go on school trips and quite frankly, I wouldn’t want to go back on any of mine. I don’t think they ever left me filled with joy and thinking there’s a place I want to take my family back to. So I think there’s something quite special about Wales that it’s drawing people back in that way.
There’s a lot of us who live here who are not Welsh and it’s because once you start coming to Wales, there is something about it. It pulls you in and it’s really hard to let go of it.
Jason Elkins (22:16.41)
That’s very cool for the listeners that aren’t able to see your face. can see that kind of affinity for where you are and why you’re there. And it really comes through both in your face, but also I’m sure in your voice.
You also said something there. You’d mentioned that you’d take, cause I actually wanted to dig a little bit more into your past, maybe before the marketing and maybe a little bit mixed in. You mentioned that you and your husband had traveled quite a bit. You just mentioned that you took some trips when you were in school. So let’s go back a little further. I’m curious about kind of when you were growing up, were you encouraged to be curious and explore and do all these things or what, was the childhood like and.
What are the things that you experienced then that may be contributed to what you’re doing now?
Claire Copeman (23:03.614)
Good question. guess, going back to my childhood, I’ve always been very outdoorsy. I’ve always been very connected with nature and animals. I grew up initially in a fairly suburban place, a little market town in England. And it was whilst I was at primary school that I discovered I enjoyed horse riding. So I started horse riding each week. And then we moved out to the countryside and we moved to a
the outskirts of a tiny little village. And I was very lucky to live in an area which is all countryside and we had a field and I had my own horse for a few years. And so I think I was always kind of outdoors being active, just taking myself off on my horse, going for three, four hours ride at the weekend and just mooching around in fields really, I think is probably how I spent my time growing up. And in terms of travel with my family.
I do remember some early days camping trips that how I love going camping and particularly wild camping these days, I don’t know because the camping we did back then as kids was definitely, should have put me off, I think. But we would sometimes go camping, not just in the UK, we would head over to France. So we would camp over there and my parents were both part of like a wider group.
I guess, of families. And so sometimes we’d go away and there could be like 30, 40 of us all going away camping together. So again, quite outdoorsy, very connected with nature. And then the holidays with my family were probably quite mainstream as a Brit. You know, I’d go to Tenerife or to Majorca and Ibiza and all those kind of typical sort of Balearic Islands, Canary Islands, France kind of trips. And we’d go skiing in France as well. So I was very lucky.
And, you know, my parents did definitely take me away and I had a lot of opportunities, which I think opened my eyes up to at least part of Europe from a very early age. And I was very fortunate to live, I think, to live in the countryside, which has really, I think, shaped my personality and my beliefs, my values, hugely, because I think that’s, and that comes through now in the business, way that
Claire Copeman (25:21.116)
way that we work, the way that we operate, think has that probably at its roots. And then when I left university, definitely yes and it’s funny as you get older.
Jason Elkins (25:28.708)
We carry that stuff with us, don’t we? Yeah, we carry that stuff with us. I’m curious. Do you even remember back when you were a teenager and your parents are like, okay, we’re going to move out more out in the country, away from town. I know a lot of teenagers, especially like our perception as teenagers today, but I think teenagers have always kind of been teenagers. So I’m curious. Do you remember feeling like.
it’s so quiet out here. I’m bored out here. You had your horse and I heard you say you were doing things, but do you remember feeling like I wish I could live in the city with my friends and everybody else or, or did that come up?
Claire Copeman (26:11.153)
It was a big change for me actually, although where we lived previously was kind of a suburb, it was of a market town, so it was still a very small town, but I lived on what we called the block and it was just like a cul -de -sac with houses there and there was a group of probably 12, 15 of us kids that were all about the same age, we all went to the same school.
And we used to just ride our bikes around the block. then there was a little, like our garden backed onto a big grammar school. And we backed onto their playing fields. So there was a cut through in our hedge where you could like nip through our garden, the hedge and onto their playing fields. And, know, at the weekend and in the summer holidays, there was obviously nobody at the school. So we had this whole playing field that we could get to.
And then we had friends who also, their gardens backed onto these same playing fields. They were huge. So we could all just like crisscross and meet up by cutting across these playing fields. And so I’d grown up all my primary school life with this great group of friends that I’d go and ride my bike with, which sometimes climb over the fence into the tennis courts of the school when it was closed.
go and play tennis and you know we’d just do the kind of things that kids did and then you know was 11 12 years old when we moved out to the countryside and I didn’t have a horse at that point I did ride but I didn’t have my horse until I was about 15 so the first few years were it was a big adjustment because not only did I leave those friends and didn’t have them on the doorstep to play with I moved a couple of towns over so I we all went off to secondary school they all went to the secondary schools
but that backed onto my old house. Whilst I went to a completely different secondary school, I had to start afresh with a whole new group of friends, none of whom lived near me. So there was one other girl my age, she lived down our lane, but she went to boarding school. So I would literally see her at school holidays. So it was a big adjustment actually, it was a big change. And no, I probably didn’t appreciate it at the time.
Jason Elkins (28:21.956)
You know, it’s interesting as I’m listening to your story, I’m kind of reflecting on some of my stories as well. And, and then I’m recognizing a little bit of a trend in the conversations that I’ve had both here on the show and just by working in this industry for a long time is I think maybe when we’re brought up by parents that are kind of open to moving, open to new experiences and all this stuff.
We get exposed to that, but it also can be difficult because as teenagers, lot, well, kids in general, there is a need for connection, right? They’re trying to figure out their place in the world and the connections with other people, their age is very important. Then as you grow older, you kind of naturally want to not be with your parents as much and want to be with your friends more. So you’ve got this mix of being exposed to…
Claire Copeman (28:59.862)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (29:18.318)
maybe travel, adventure, just whatever is different as opposed to living in one house your entire childhood. So you’re exposed to that, but you still have this strong need for connection. And then is it a surprise that so many of us end up in the adventure tourism business or tourism business like we are, because I don’t know about you, but my highest value is shared connections or shared experiences really.
Claire Copeman (29:32.234)
Mm.
Jason Elkins (29:45.82)
Because the shared part is a connection but is shared experiences and it’s I grew up with a very strange childhood going a lot of places doing a lot of things being exposed to a lot of things but I didn’t necessarily have a lot of friends around me because I was always changing schools moving this and that so then later on in life I’ve I’ve discovered all these cool things in the world whether that world is You know locally or the entire world you discover all these cool things and I’m like, I just want to share them
Claire Copeman (29:58.805)
Hmm.
Jason Elkins (30:14.34)
Like that’s my drive in tourism is like I was, you know, I’ve worked as a guide. I’ve worked as a tour operator because I just want to share all these cool places and all these cool things with people. So I don’t know. What do you think? Do you think that maybe played a played an impact in your desire now to share things with people?
Claire Copeman (30:14.549)
Yeah.
Claire Copeman (30:32.214)
Maybe it did. I think as well because, I similar to you, I didn’t have those really deep connections because I’d already changed primary school. So I did nursery school and then we moved. So then I started primary school with no friends and started again. And then I got to the end of primary school and they moved me again to a secondary school and I started again with no friends and so on. So I think for me, this will sound really lonely.
maybe friends became a little bit transient for me. And I’ve always had those kind of, you know, just two or three people that I probably speak to once every few years, literally, but they are my dearest friends. And I know that if I ever needed them, they’re there. And I feel I have the strongest connection with them, probably because we never grew up together. Like, for example, one of my great friends always lived.
Jason Elkins (31:04.559)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (31:24.09)
Mm
Claire Copeman (31:26.198)
100 miles away from me, which when you were a kid, that’s a long way. You can’t travel 100 miles without your parents taking you. So we would meet once a year. Yeah, we would meet once a year on a riding holiday. But she’s since moved to the US. She’s lived in Kentucky for probably best part of 20 years now. And I would still class her as one of my best friends. And we meet maybe every five to eight years.
Jason Elkins (31:31.45)
Yeah. Might as well be a thousand.
Claire Copeman (31:52.47)
And we don’t chat in between, we just don’t. And when we see each other, it’s brilliant. So I think friends became a bit transient and maybe that’s one of the reasons why I do like to share, but I also like the whole small group experience because it’s immediate, get to know people, share something amazing. And I don’t worry if that’s the end of it. If we do click and we stay in touch afterwards, fantastic. And if we don’t, we don’t. For me, I guess it’s perhaps how I’ve just got used to.
Jason Elkins (31:56.484)
Mm
Claire Copeman (32:21.726)
interacting with people but I do agree shared is is absolutely better but for me the less people you share it with the better it is so definitely small groups
Jason Elkins (32:30.48)
Everything you’re saying is just, just resonating. My brain is firing off because I, I get it. You know, I’ve led a lot of group trips and I worked as a fly fishing guide in Montana. Actually that’s, there’s a connection there. Cause I remember somebody, read something somewhere, maybe somebody mentioned to me that, you know, your clients, when they come to Montana and they want to go fishing for a day or two or three, I don’t.
I don’t know if I align completely with what I was told, but I remember being told they’re paying you to be their friend. They don’t have a friend to go fishing with, or maybe they don’t have a friend that can come to Montana that has a boat that knows where to go fishing. So they’re paying you to be their friend as much as they are to, to find fish or help them catch fish. And I thought, you know, that’s pretty cool because I’m doing this work because I enjoy the people.
Claire Copeman (33:05.312)
Mm.
Jason Elkins (33:26.884)
Like I, at the end of a day, if I’m, you know, been out all day with somebody, rowing the boat, having conversations about their kids, their family, their work, their whatever, by the end of the day, I feel like I just had a mini, you use the word transient, but I just had a mini friend experience and I got paid for it. That was great. So I could justify it to my wife. But it really was like, and I looked forward to meeting new people because I was making new friends every day. And when you lead a group trip.
Claire Copeman (33:27.189)
Yeah.
Claire Copeman (33:43.719)
Yeah.
Claire Copeman (33:55.168)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (33:56.944)
You’re with a group of 10, 12 people and by the end of the week, you’re all friends. When you meet them, you don’t know them and then you’ve got friends, but at the same time, you don’t have that responsibility of maintaining friendships. Because I always move, I’m a nomad, I’m living the nomadic lifestyle. It’s a real challenge to make friends when you show up and you’re like, yeah, I’m gonna be here a month, maybe, unless I get bored and leave in two weeks.
Claire Copeman (34:10.728)
I was just going to say that.
Claire Copeman (34:22.784)
Yes.
Jason Elkins (34:26.264)
So making long -term friends is virtually impossible in the traditional sense. But at the same time, every time I go to a new place, I get to make new friends. if I go, if I’m staying at a guest house or something and some other guests are, let’s go do something this weekend. And you have that little mini friend experience that fulfills that need for connection. just remembering a lot of the conversations I’ve had here on the show, I think that maybe that’s a…
Kind of a common thread for a lot of us. So I appreciate you going there with me.
Claire Copeman (34:56.969)
Yeah, guess it is, a tour group is like friends without strings attached, isn’t it? You get the fun bit of getting to know people and there’s none of the pressure. Yeah, maybe. But yeah, I think it’s, that the fun bit is getting to know people, isn’t it? And I think, and sharing something, especially, you know, if I think about some of the group trips that we do.
Jason Elkins (35:05.368)
Yeah, it’s friends with benefits in a different way.
Claire Copeman (35:24.212)
Some of them are quite challenging and they really put people out of their comfort zone. But for me personally, I think there’s so much less pressure when people can’t have an expectation of you if they don’t know you and therefore you can’t put yourself under pressure of whether you’re going to live up to their expectations because there aren’t any. And I think, I think that’s a really big thing for anyone who’s thinking about doing a solo travel on a small group trip and they’re worried about what other people might think.
Jason Elkins (35:43.737)
Mm -hmm.
Claire Copeman (35:50.506)
Don’t worry about it because they’re not thinking about anything other than how they’re going to fare. And then you’ll all meet each other and realize you’re all in exactly the same boat. Have a great time getting to know each other. Go and do stuff that you didn’t know you could do. And you probably let your guard down a little bit more and let yourself dare to do a bit more because you haven’t got the pressure of pre existing relationships and
Jason Elkins (36:01.157)
Yeah.
Claire Copeman (36:17.18)
expectations around you and I think that’s, I guess, life as a tour operator. You get to enjoy that out on the road with the groups that you meet but even sometimes sat at a desk when I’m talking to a new guest and I’m trying to plan their tailor -made trip and I really want to get to know them.
Jason Elkins (36:18.65)
Mm
Claire Copeman (36:36.562)
Some people don’t like to share much and they say, well, I want to go to Wales and I want to do eight days. What do you recommend? I said, well, I’d like to have a video call. So I really want to get to know you and I want to understand what you like and what you don’t like. And I love that bit about getting to know them. And then I can go, go away. And I know that I can craft a brilliant trip that they’re going to love. And I love that satisfaction, that kind of real pleasure of going, I’ve just made their holiday. Like, you know, I’ve made their year because they’ve just had the best trip of their life.
and then we can all go away and carry on with our separate lives. It’s great.
Jason Elkins (37:12.112)
That’s cool. This is a interesting conversation. Thank you. I mean, I see that. And what I heard you say, no, I want to do that. Like maybe the potential client is, we don’t need to do a video call. I just want eight days, just whatever, whatever. And you’re like, no, let’s do the video call. And there’s a little, I’m going to say it if it were me. I’m not putting words in your mouth. But no, I want to do the video call because that’s part of the enjoyment I get out of this is I get to connect with you. get to.
understand you a little bit and have a conversation and come up with something that I can be proud of, that I can feel confident that you’re going to enjoy, that when you come home, you’re going to send me pictures and you’re going to, I get to read your reviews. And, and if you take that part away, then the job is like, I might as well be selling insurance or I might as well be selling something else. Then it’s like, yeah.
Claire Copeman (38:00.931)
Yeah, the job becomes… Yeah. There’s so much…
Jason Elkins (38:05.358)
Like I’m in the tourism business because I like people please give me please let me have a video call with you
Claire Copeman (38:08.758)
Absolutely, absolutely. I want that connection. If I don’t have that connection with somebody, I worry so much about the itinerary that I’m creating because I’m second guessing. I don’t know if they’ll like it. So I start trying to put too much in and then I take it out again because I just don’t know if they might like that or not. Whereas when you’ve had a chat with someone, can really, without them necessarily…
telling you that much explicitly just from speaking to them and hearing about what they’ve done before or little things about, but the younger one’s a bit scared of heights or, my husband’s not a big fan of water or whatever it might be. I can immediately start checking off things in my head that, you know, actually, okay, well, I won’t do that activity, but I think everybody would love this. But maybe actually, and dad could split up for today and they could go and one does that with the kids and one does that one with the other kids because…
I think they’ll both enjoy it. And you know, it’s not a one size fits all. That’s not what we do. So if you want a one size fits all, and you just want to pick something off a list, probably we’re not the right company for you. But if you want to just give us 15 minutes of your time and we can have a great chat, I’m going to create the most wicked tour you’ve ever had. And I’m going to, I’m going to love every minute of creating it for you.
Jason Elkins (39:10.191)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (39:30.542)
I love that. I think that’s the difference between the tour operator like yourself. That’s really into the custom, the tailor made, the, you know, a bunch of different words for it. Bespoke, whatever. And it’s about probably more about their personalities than anything, because you’ve got other tour operators that are like, I just want to put the tours on the website. I want to automate everything. I want to use AI and I want to make it easy for people to book the tour sitting in their underwear on, you know, in bed at three o ‘clock in the morning.
And I think there’s a place for both. I get that a lot of people, that’s how they want to book their experiences. But we as individuals, this is my business. I’m going to do it. I want to do it. And I like people. I want to connect with people. mean, Claire, why do you think I do the podcast? Right. And I do it on video. So those people that are listening, please know that I’m looking at Claire’s face now.
Claire Copeman (40:17.504)
You
Jason Elkins (40:25.432)
So I get to do this, you know, once or twice a week, I have a conversation with somebody interesting like yourself. I’m able to connect and kind of get to know you a bit. I don’t, I don’t make any money on this podcast. don’t, I don’t have any sponsors. This is just my opportunity to connect with people. And it’s because that’s the type of person I am, you know? So I get it. I, you and I are on the same page. I do believe so. Very cool. Hey, and also.
Claire Copeman (40:49.908)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (40:53.988)
because you mentioned video calls specifically, and I find, and I’m curious, you probably find as well, like, it’s so much easier to connect with someone when you can see their face. Because traditionally, phone calls, you know, we haven’t had video calls forever. Traditionally, you might call a travel agent on the telephone, and that was fine. That was better than sending a letter, I guess. But now we’ve got the ability to do video. So when you are asking a person, you know,
Claire Copeman (40:56.448)
Yeah.
Claire Copeman (41:03.925)
Yes.
Claire Copeman (41:08.181)
No.
Claire Copeman (41:15.477)
you
Jason Elkins (41:20.57)
Do you like what kind of this tell me about your last trip what you liked most about it? Whatever questions you ask you’re able to see the micro expressions on their face and Instead of them just going along with whatever you’re suggesting you can see well I can tell you I don’t think you’re very excited about Whitewater rafting I can just something about the look on your face So let’s let’s discuss that a little bit more and then maybe you end up they do sailing or something instead I don’t know but
Right. So yeah. Do you get much? Do you feel like you get resistance from people to get on a video call?
Claire Copeman (41:57.288)
Not generally. what I have found, and this happened recently actually, and we’ve said lesson learned, let’s not do it again. Generally people are very good. And if they’re serious about booking with us, then they will put in, you know, they’ll put aside that little bit of time to speak to us. Because I think also most people who are serious about booking want to know who they’re booking with and who they’re spending their money with. And they want to know that they can trust us and that we understand what they’re looking for. So.
Generally, no, most people are pretty good. Obviously, we have to make ourselves available at strange times of day, quite often to work around people’s working hours or different time zones across the world. Occasionally, we have had some resistance, in which case, in all honesty, we tend to let those inquiries kind of peter out because we don’t feel that we can.
We don’t really feel we can genuinely create a good itinerary for you if we’ve not had that call. So if we can’t have the call, where do we start with the itinerary? But occasionally we’ve had people who’ve
Jason Elkins (42:59.972)
Yeah. And it’s almost a filter because there’s a lot more, there’s a lot more back and forth and there’s a lot more risk, I guess, in the sense of that they’re going to be disappointed. They’re going to have a bad experience. yeah, that’s a challenge. I’m actually working on a, I’m working on a website, kind of a calendar and integration right now for somebody. we.
Claire Copeman (43:03.189)
Yeah.
Claire Copeman (43:13.428)
Yeah, and that’s it.
Jason Elkins (43:23.362)
are using kind of a routing form and it’s like, okay, would you prefer a video call? We are giving them an option of a regular telephone call. Would you prefer a video call, a telephone call, or would you like to go back and forth by email is the word I’m using. And if they select back and forth by email, it’s like, okay, here’s our email address. Good luck. It’s kind of like, if that’s the way you want to do this, then we’re not gonna like, we’re not gonna hound you. We’re not gonna be.
Claire Copeman (43:46.058)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (43:50.778)
calling you, pastoring you, hey, we haven’t heard from you. If you say you want to do email, because I mean, I’m sure there are people that want to,
Claire Copeman (43:55.996)
Exactly. And that’s exactly what we do really is we just don’t push it. we can’t get, mean, if people want a phone call, some, you know, we do get some older guests sometimes who are less comfortable with the video or maybe aren’t that technically savvy, but that is very rare to be honest. And I think because a lot of people, most of our guests come from outside of the UK and so everyone’s often worried about international, you know, dialing fees. So actually a video call is…
Jason Elkins (44:25.498)
Yeah.
Claire Copeman (44:25.598)
is free for everybody. I think most people are so used to it now, it’s fine. But yeah, we recently had someone who just kept saying they were really keen, but they were just too busy for a video call, just too busy. And so we went ahead and we created a trip. It actually wasn’t a completely tailor -made trip. It was one of our kind of FIT standard hiking tours, self -guided hiking trip, which we’ve run.
time and time again, we know it works, we know it’s great. It fitted the bill for what they were asking us for. We put it to them, they said they really liked it and so we went ahead with it without having a video call and yeah, not great overall. But we were, in the run up to the trip, we were getting that vibe that they didn’t really know what they were asking us for, they weren’t really paying attention to what they were booking.
Jason Elkins (45:11.556)
You don’t have to say it.
Claire Copeman (45:22.954)
So we were kind of, I just don’t know if this is the right trip anymore for them, but it was kind of too late. They were booked. They said they wanted to do it, but we were just getting vibes in the background that have they ever been on a hiking holiday before? they know what this involves? So lesson learned in future. No video call, no tour. Sorry. Yeah, they did it. We didn’t really.
Jason Elkins (45:42.48)
Did they do the trip? Did they do the trip?
Jason Elkins (45:50.478)
Yeah, okay, but yeah.
Claire Copeman (45:51.518)
Most of our guests stay in touch throughout the trip. It’s funny because we use an app and a lot of them messages throughout the trip and they’ll be like, my God, it’s amazing. We’ve had a fab day and love this hotel or great, great restaurant recommendation. It’s brilliant because we get all these random messages from people sharing what a fab time they’re having on their trip. And it’s lovely. And we just, we just didn’t hear a peep out of them at all during or after the trip. So yeah.
Jason Elkins (46:20.752)
I get it. remember when I worked for a company called Orvis, we did a lot of fly fishing and stuff and I had a client who I’d booked trips with them before never really had much of a conversation with them. this particular time he just said, I want to go to Ireland. We had a trip on our website. I want to go to Ireland. want to stay at this place and I want to go fishing for 10 days.
I got to be careful what I say because I don’t want to offend anybody in Ireland. But I’m good. I’m also candid. The fishing at this particular place was not the best fishing in the world. I knew it wasn’t the best fishing. I’d been there. I fished there for half a day. I was a fly fishing guide. I went to this place. I fished for half a day. Didn’t see a single fish and just kind of like, OK, it’s cool here. I like it here. There’s a lot of other cool stuff to do.
Claire Copeman (47:07.136)
Mm.
Jason Elkins (47:16.496)
And I didn’t care that I didn’t catch fish. I wasn’t a big deal. But this guy, I want to go there and I want to fish for 10 days. And I was younger and afraid to create any sort of conflict. I just, okay, then we’ll do it. And I booked it all out and didn’t even have a conversation with him about what the fishing was going to be like. He, figured he didn’t ask me. I wasn’t going to bring it up. Not because I was trying to trick him. just, I just went.
Claire Copeman (47:28.235)
Mm.
Jason Elkins (47:43.888)
I just was young. So when people said I want something, I would just say, okay, here it is. And it was a huge, huge, huge lesson for me because he came back and wrote a letter to the CEO of Orvis about Mr. Jason Elkins in the travel department who, let him go on this trip to Ireland to go fishing. Cause I knew he wanted to go fishing because he said he wanted to go fishing and he fished for 10 days and
Claire Copeman (47:48.5)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (48:13.028)
didn’t catch any fish and was very upset and mentioned that he had only a short amount of time left on this planet. And it was probably his last fishing trip and how disappointed and upset he was that, that I didn’t do a better job, you know, that it basically, I didn’t have a conversation with him about what to expect with fishing. And he was right. He was a hundred percent right. And of course my defensiveness kicks kicked in cause I was young, but
Claire Copeman (48:25.425)
Claire Copeman (48:38.496)
in
Jason Elkins (48:41.71)
I recognize he was right. And if I had just picked up the phone and said, Dan, I know you said you wanted to do this, but what are you trying to get out of this? Because if you want to go to Ireland and drink Guinness and sit on a boat for three hours a day and talk to a really interesting fishing guide and do falconry and do all this other stuff, then it’ll be an amazing trip. But I didn’t do that, you know? And I learned that was a big, big lesson for me. And then he passed about six months later and you know, and it was, it sucked, frankly.
Claire Copeman (48:44.384)
Mm.
Claire Copeman (49:02.42)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (49:11.524)
And we had booked some trips for him in the past. It wasn’t the first trip I’d booked for him. I just felt like I totally let him down. So I learned and so I thank him to this day.
Claire Copeman (49:11.659)
But.
Claire Copeman (49:15.851)
Mm.
Claire Copeman (49:21.78)
Yeah, I think what you said there though, you just said the exact same phrase I always say is, what do you want to get out of this trip? And then people will say, well, I’d like a double room and eight days and I want to go mountain biking. You’re like, no, what do you want to get out of the trip? I said, do you want to meet people, do you want to have foodie experiences? Do you want to achieve something? Do you want to feel something? What is it you want to get out of this trip?
Jason Elkins (49:49.966)
Yeah. What do you want to feel? Right? That’s so important. Yeah. And it
Claire Copeman (49:50.386)
not just the functional yeah yeah a trip is much more than just the functional parts of it
Jason Elkins (50:00.068)
Yeah, it is. It’s for me, it’s mostly about connection. I think for a lot of people, it’s about connection. They can say, I want to go see Machu Picchu or whatever. And I get that. And I would probably argue that maybe subconsciously that’s an excuse to go somewhere that you’re going to meet other people that are maybe like you.
Claire Copeman (50:06.165)
Hmm.
Jason Elkins (50:24.652)
or maybe the guides, maybe like the guides that you’re with or other travelers or whatever. But I’ve just come to that conclusion because if you said, Jason, you can go to Machu Picchu by yourself, you’re going to hike for three, four days by yourself, we’re going to give you a map, and you’re not going to talk to or see another person for four days, I’m like, screw it. Why would I want to do that?
I’ve been, I’ve been very fortunate to travel to some amazing places, a mix of by myself. There’s always someone around, but it’s always the people. It’s always, you know, even if it’s just standing there next to someone enjoying the view and saying, wow, isn’t this cool? Or maybe it’s just a look or an expression on the face. It’s like, can you believe we’re here? It’s almost like I’m not there if I don’t have somebody to share it with on some level, but that’s, that’s me. I don’t know. What do you think?
Claire Copeman (51:06.603)
Yeah.
Claire Copeman (51:15.542)
I always felt the same after uni, I went travelling. I did the typical six months backpacking around Southeast Asia and I loved it. And I went with my boyfriend at the time, who was not in my life these days. I remember the two of us travelling.
Jason Elkins (51:27.492)
you
Jason Elkins (51:34.768)
I’m sure your husband, did you say that for your husband’s benefit?
Claire Copeman (51:39.944)
Not in my life. No, we were together for quite a long time. And obviously it was a very big thing for us to like, it probably my first time really leaving home for any period of time. And I went about as far away as I could have possibly gone. But I also remember seeing all of these other solo backpackers and part of me thought,
just not brave enough to have done it on my own? Am I missing out because I haven’t done it on my own? I think as the months went on, I really came to the conclusion that if you, in fact, it was probably post -trip, it really kicked in. For years afterwards, we’d talk about it and that was such a shared memory. If you didn’t share that memory with somebody, did it really even happen? I think you’re just telling…
people, it just sounds like you’re bragging then doesn’t it? You’re just telling people about stuff you’ve done but there’s no context, there’s nobody to share it with, and like said there’s no connection to it.
Jason Elkins (52:39.738)
You know, something that just came up for me recently that drives have point home is, I had met a, I was in another city in Columbia a few weeks ago and had met a friend there and had gone and done some exploring, went and, know, got on a bus, went and visited some of the little pueblos. And I noticed that I took tons of pictures. Like we were taking pictures and sharing pictures and, all this stuff.
Claire Copeman (53:01.728)
Mm.
Jason Elkins (53:04.76)
And then probably a week or so later, I went somewhere by myself. I just got on a bus and went somewhere and it was an interesting place. Didn’t really have any conversations with anybody the entire day. And I got back at the end of the day and my friend said, why don’t you send me a picture? I told her I went somewhere and she’s like, why don’t you send me pictures? I’m like, I didn’t take a single picture. You know, and I think there’s something there. It’s like when I’m by myself and I don’t feel connection and I’m not like.
trying to create a shared memory, then I don’t even bother taking pictures usually. Now, that being said, if I bump into somebody, if that day I had sat down next to somebody and they start a conversation with me, I’ve done this many times, I might say, hey, can I get a picture with you? And I’ll take a picture with a stranger on the street or in a restaurant or in a park or whatever. And it’s just kind of the selfie thing, with my arm around some total stranger.
And I’ll take a picture of that because that’s something I want to remember. That helps me remember. Take a picture of myself standing in front of a statue or a monument or a beach. I just I just don’t do it. It’s like why I don’t I can’t look at that picture and think, I remember that. It’s just a thing. I don’t know. Maybe it’s just me. But anyway.
Claire Copeman (54:07.232)
Mmm.
Claire Copeman (54:25.586)
That is the one point where I think we differ, because I’m thinking about it. I do a lot of hiking on my own. I used to lot of mountain biking on my own as well. There are some things I think are great to do on your own, don’t get me wrong. I just think too long spent on your own is not great. Too many unshared memories isn’t great. But I think when I’m out with other people…
I’m so busy enjoying their company and talking and all those things. I never think to take photos. Whereas if I’m on my own, get a bit fidgety and a bit bored and I think, should take a photo really. Then I can show my husband when I get home and be like, this is what I’ve done today. And I can bore him with my camera roll. So yeah, maybe I do the opposite thing.
Jason Elkins (54:57.049)
Interesting. Okay.
Jason Elkins (55:10.288)
Maybe Maybe it’s because I don’t have anybody in my life that I think really wants to see my pictures That might be part of it if I’m If I’m traveling with somebody then that person’s excited about share the pictures with me, okay, whatever But yeah, what I’m I I enjoy going and doing things by myself on occasion Don’t get me wrong, but I know there’s always this bit inside of me
Claire Copeman (55:18.776)
I don’t think my husband does.
You
Jason Elkins (55:38.596)
that when I’m doing something on my own, I’m kind of scanning the audience. I’m kind of scanning, looking for an opportunity to connect. And not like in a creepy way, but just, I like, you know, if I’m out hiking somewhere and I meet somebody on the trail, I’d love it. I’m the type, I’m going to stop, probably have a conversation if they’re not creeped out. And I’m always looking for that, but it’s, yeah, it’s just kind of interesting.
Claire Copeman (55:49.142)
Okay.
Jason Elkins (56:04.152)
It’s just a thing that came up for me. Why do I take pictures when I’m with people, but not when I don’t know anyway? Hey, there’s something I want to make sure we touch on before before we wrap it up. Maybe there’s some other stuff as well, but you and I, the last time we spoke, we had discussed the B Corp. Kind of does. I don’t even want to try and explain what it is because I’m not clear on it. I’m not embarrassed to admit when I don’t know something. I’m a travel industry, professional adventure tourism guy.
Claire Copeman (56:08.541)
Mm, still.
Claire Copeman (56:21.973)
Mmm.
Jason Elkins (56:33.524)
And I really don’t understand what’s going on with the B Corp. I know it’s a big thing that a lot of reputable tour operators have been discussing. So I’d love to just kind of, if you can give us the B Corp for Dummies version of what is a B Corp and why is it important and whatever you want to share.
Claire Copeman (56:55.136)
Yeah, becoming B Corp certified was something that we wanted to do from really early on actually. And I think this goes back to my whole kind of countryside nature connection, fluffy living, I think, where I’ve just got this longing to always try and do good and to have the least negative impacts and most positive impact I can in every area of my life. you know, particularly now that
I have the opportunity to run my own business. For me, that means more than just running a business and making money. I want that business to do good. I want it to put something back into the communities we visit and to the environment that we enjoy and the planet that we live on. And for me, B Corp really embodied that. Being B Corp essentially means that you commit to working for the benefit of people and planet.
as well as profit. So, you know, their statement still says, you’re still a business, you’re still a commercial entity. At the end of the day, we are all still trying to make a living out of what we’re doing, but we’re doing it by aiming to benefit others around us and certainly not at the detriment of others around us, which I think there’s so many big businesses out there now, unfortunately, who get away with, and for…
Decades and decades have got away with doing pretty awful things, know, in terms of, you know, child labor or, you know, paying people less than a working wage or living wage, polluting our waterways, you know, the kind of harvesting that happens in rainforests. There’s so many companies out there that kind of pillage the land and take advantage of people.
in order to make a profit and B Corp is very much about taking a stance against that and saying no we are here to work for people and planet as well as profit. So everything that we do we consider the impact that we have on the communities that we visit, we consider our carbon footprint for example from a know a climate crisis point of view, we make sure that we pay people, we pay our suppliers fairly, we pay our staff fairly, you know it’s all about
Claire Copeman (59:13.64)
It covers, it’s not any one thing, it’s about the governance of your business to show that you are treating your staff fairly. So for example, part -time workers have the same rights as full -time workers, that it’s, as said, environmental, it’s about community as well. So we get involved with quite a few community projects now that we’re really proud of. So it’s, we are a tour operator and that is our business, but a big part of that is doing things in the right way to only work with.
like -minded suppliers as far as we can do so locally owned independent suppliers you don’t come on holiday with us and find yourself booked into a Hilton sorry if you like a Hilton but that’s an international brand you spend money to come to you know whichever part of the UK it is we believe that your money that you spend should benefit the people in that region you’re visiting it shouldn’t get siphoned off to London or to New York or wherever the headquarters of that hotel is you know it’s about keeping
The economic benefit within the areas that you travel, it’s about lessening our negative impacts on the environment. It’s all of those things. It’s just about trying to do business better.
Jason Elkins (01:00:25.54)
Very cool. What I hear you saying is I’m going to try and summarize and see if I’ve got close certification. They look at how you do your business on many different levels to make sure that it’s in alignment with their vision of supporting local communities, the environment, just doing things. I’m going to say the right way. We all have our own idea what the right is, but I I’m just using that word do that. We’re doing things the right way.
Is this I I’m guessing that at the beginning when you say, I want to be a b -corp Get my b -corp certification There’s probably a process kind of like Accreditation for a school or whatever. It’s like, This is what we do. This is how we do it. Da da da da Okay, good. You’re good. You’ve got the b -corp Now b -corp itself And I know you’re not representing them directly, but we’re discussing them because you’re familiar with it
as a member. What is B Corp? Is it a NGO worldwide? What’s your understanding of like, do they actually do things other than just certify operators? Are they? Do they?
Claire Copeman (01:01:41.6)
that they’re not tourism specific. That’s the first thing to say. So it’s a global company now. they have, so we’re, so there’s B Corp UK. I think it started in the, U S originally. And it did actually come from, so we were doing some work with Untours at the moment. And the founder of Untours was actually, I think the inspiration behind B Corp was my understanding. So it’s got roots in the U S.
Jason Elkins (01:01:46.898)
Claire Copeman (01:02:09.536)
but it is now a global movement and it is growing all the time. But as for their kind of company status, I don’t think they’re an NGO, think they are a, I guess a commercial organization is my understanding, but they are not specific to tourism, which is one of the reasons why we chose to be B Corp certified because it spans all industries. You can be in any industry and go for your B Corp certification, but.
Everyone, anyone who knows me also knows I like a challenge and B Corp is probably one of the toughest certifications to achieve. you know, go big or go home. It’s usually my motto. So that was another reason for it. But we felt that B Corp would over time become much better known because you could be a…
Jason Elkins (01:02:46.745)
Yeah.
Claire Copeman (01:02:58.472)
make -up brand, you could be a tour operator, you could be an insurance provider, you could be from any industry and you have the potential to be B Corp certified if you run your business in the right way and can gain that certification.
Jason Elkins (01:03:13.582)
Let’s address this because there’s a lot of conversation in the tourism business around, will clients put their money where their mouth is? In the sense that oftentimes people, as tour operators, often, okay, I’m B Corp, I’m green, I do carbon credits, I do this, I plant trees, I do all these different things and therefore, you know.
Hopefully my clients will choose me over my competition because I’m giving back and all this stuff. And, and I think that’s great. And I suspect that some people have this perception in their head that, well, I don’t want to pay more. Like, okay, you’re planting 10 trees in the Amazon, but that’s going to cost me money because you’re going to mark up the trip more or whatever, because these it’s expensive to do things the right way.
So I’m just curious what your thoughts are. I’m not asking you to rebuff it or whatever. I’m just curious, like, how do you, how do you as a tour operator address that?
Claire Copeman (01:04:13.578)
see it.
I think the first thing we have to do is dispel that myth because it’s not true. It’s just simply not true. It is not more expensive. I think you’re right, there is a bit of a misconception sometimes. What I will say is I don’t think we’re at a stage right now where consumers come to us or any other B Corp because we’re B Corp certified.
you’ve got to offer a really good quality product at a competitive price. That’s your starting point to be considered. But then once you’re in the field for being considered, do I go with A or do I go with B? Well, B, that’s B Corp Certified, I’ll go with B. You know, but it might be the deciding factor. It’s not necessarily the primary reason for choosing a business. And I don’t know if it ever would be because hopefully so many businesses will become B Corp Certified.
Jason Elkins (01:04:56.176)
BSP Corp.
Claire Copeman (01:05:11.734)
Because I don’t want it to be a rarity. I don’t want to be unique or special because we’re B Corp. I want to be part of a growing movement that encourages every big business to follow our lead and realize that they need to start treating people on our planet better. But as for the cost thing, guess, so for example, we were actually the first inbound operator in the UK to carbon label our tours, which we started doing back in 2020. So for a good
Jason Elkins (01:05:20.334)
Yeah.
Claire Copeman (01:05:40.47)
four years now almost, we’ve been measuring our carbon footprint and reporting back on it. But by measuring our carbon footprint, it meant that we could truly understand, okay, so if we talk simply about planting trees to offset carbon, and by the way, we’re all about carbon reduction. So we try and reduce our carbon as much as possible year on year. And we’ve got goals in place, targets that we have in order to become net zero by 2030. But…
Measuring it means that we can understand what the carbon footprint of the trip is and then we can see, how many trees do we need to plant for that traveller? On average, our trips are so low carbon, to be honest, but on average, even like an eight, 10 day trip, you would need to plant half a tree per person. That’s all. So we commit to plant one tree per person and in its lifetime, it will offset
more than offset the carbon from their trip, will technically doubly offset it. I can tell you that that tree costs us about five pound and we go and plant it ourselves. That’s really not a big expense to pay, it? And I think there are some companies, I was on a call recently and I heard some of the prices that some operators are charging for the trees, but a lot of them are buying carbon credits or they are paying into tree planting projects and that’s…
Jason Elkins (01:06:51.074)
yeah.
Claire Copeman (01:07:06.816)
fine if that’s what works for you but I’m a big believer in it’s not just about planting trees. Planting trees is not our way out of the climate crisis by the way. We can’t plant our way out of this. There is not enough room on the planet for that many trees and there is such a thing as the wrong tree in the wrong place. So we actually work with our local basically like a park rangers.
and we’ve got a dedicated piece of land that we’ve been planting trees in over the last few years. That was identified as a piece of what was previously ancient woodland. So it’s prime for having trees planted on it. And we know what types of trees should be planted there because we work really closely with our local rangers. And each winter we go to the site as a team with our gloves on our shovels and a load of baby trees. And we spend a day out on the hillside.
planting trees and then we go back in summer and we tend to the trees and we make sure that they’ve all got plenty of light and because there’s weeds and things they’re tiny when we plant them so when we go back in the summer the weeds are higher than the trees that we planted in you know six months earlier so we have to go and carefully stomp down all the weeds and make sure that the trees are there to thrive and we’ve been doing this for the last three years now we went back last month and the first round of trees are
so much tall, I’m not very tall by the way, but still I planted a stick and now we’ve got trees that are like six, seven, eight foot high and it’s amazing to see. But there’s, you know, it doesn’t have to be expensive and for us it’s a brilliant team day out and we’re contributing back to our local community because it’s a woodland that’s just the other side of the hill out of my window.
Jason Elkins (01:08:53.112)
Yeah, it’s pretty cool. I’m happy you said this. We can’t plant our way out of this and that you got to plant the right tree in the right place. And cause I’ve planted a lot of stuff in my life. I’m pretty sure most of it’s dead. So me as a tour operator saying, I planted a hundred trees last year.
Claire Copeman (01:09:03.199)
Yes.
We
Jason Elkins (01:09:13.558)
ability to nurture plants, that’s not saying much. So I’m happy you pointed that out. Claire, we’ve discussed quite a few things. That was a really fun conversation. I really, really enjoy you kind of going a little different direction with me and bringing me and our listeners kind of up to speed on what B Corp is all about. And I’m curious, what else should I have asked you? Did I forget to ask you? What else do you want to make sure our listeners know about either you, Claire, or
you know, adventure towards UK or Wales or trees or anything. Is there anything we should discuss?
Claire Copeman (01:09:52.426)
I think we’ve probably touched on most things. think that the key thing for us is that, you know, people understand that we are, we’re a very genuine small business. You know, we’re very committed to what we do. We’re passionate about what we do. You know, we really want to hold the hand of each of our guests. If they’re individuals traveling with us, or if it’s, you know, we work with trade clients as well, and we operate tours in the UK on behalf of
other big outbound operators around the world. Whether you’re a trade client or an individual guest, we really want to kind of hold your hand and lead you through some of the most amazing experiences here in the UK. We just want to get people out into the outdoors and really, you we’ve always said from the start, our mission is to put the UK on the the global adventure travel map. And I think the UK is really starting to take its place in that. But we know we’ve got quite a long way to go, but
We do it in what we feel is the most genuine and authentic way. We are mountain bikers, hikers, trail runners. This is what we live and breathe and we just want to share our experiences of the UK with you. And I think that sets us apart from a lot of people out there, a lot of businesses out there because it is such a genuine experience.
Jason Elkins (01:11:13.754)
Yeah, I can tell. I’m happy that you, that I, that you brought that up because I didn’t do a great job of really figuring out, okay, what is it that you do? Because I think that’s important to know. So what I heard was, the UK, so it’s not just Wales. We spent a lot of time speaking about Wales and tourism and Wales, but I also picked up in the conversation that vast majority of your, leads are coming or your clients, potential clients, or your, the guests are visiting maybe Scotland.
England and Northern Ireland or you do do some stuff in Northern Ireland?
Claire Copeman (01:11:47.346)
We don’t offer Northern Ireland yet, I’d like to at some point in the future but not yet, just logistically it’s a farrier way. at the moment we stick to the mainland UK and of course all the Scottish islands, so one nation at a time.
Jason Elkins (01:11:58.476)
It’s fit. Northern Ireland is very difficult. Anyway, very difficult. Okay. I don’t know if that’ll come across in the podcast, but anyway. Okay. And so you work your DMC. So destination management companies. So you work with other tour operators. You might have somebody in the U S that does tours all around the world that you work with to, take care of your mutual clients.
Claire Copeman (01:12:05.08)
Yeah, nice.
Jason Elkins (01:12:26.842)
should they choose to go to the UK. also, we’ve got your website linked in the show notes. So if somebody is interested in going to the UK and doing some of those fabulous activities that you discussed and going with a B Corp certified company, the website’s right there so they can check in there. And you do, do you do, I’m curious, you, you do group tours, right? So if you’ve got a solo traveler, may be able to hook up with a group of other people as well, it sounds like. Okay, so.
Claire Copeman (01:12:54.474)
We do. Most of our small group tours that we run for ourselves are on the slightly more challenging side. So for all of our trade clients, the DMC work we do, we do a lot of your kind of typical hiking and cycling trips, which are great, but we wanted to set ourselves apart with our own tours. So we tend to focus on the more kind of mountain hiking, like, you know, big multi -day mountain challenges.
trail running challenges, mountain biking. that little, if you’re looking for something that a little bit more strenuous and a bit more of a challenge, then we’ve got the small group tour for you to come and join for Definet. And we did loads of tailor -made.
Jason Elkins (01:13:30.38)
Okay. And, and I’m guessing that if somebody listening to this that is a solo traveler that was inspired by our conversation and you just scared them away with trail running and what the words you said, I would encourage them to connect with you anyway. Cause I suspect that you may have potential openings on other group tours with your partners and stuff like that. So I would encourage.
Anybody that’s listening to this conversation that is interested to reach out to you directly. I know you’re going to take great care of them. And if you’re listening, do the video call. Just a bit of advice. Do the video call. Cause my goodness. Had I been able to do a video call? Here’s the thing. I’m going to wrap it up with this. Had I been able to do a video call with Dan, the guy that I sent to Ireland to go fishing. If that had been a video call, I don’t think I could have possibly not dug deeper because I would have seen to look on his face.
Claire Copeman (01:14:01.396)
Yeah, absolutely.
Jason Elkins (01:14:24.4)
I might not have initially jumped in. Dan, the fishing there is now what you’re going to expect based on the other place you’ve been, but I would have been able to pick up on it. I’m a smart guy. I can pick up on things when I see them or hear them. Problem with them is just written communication, written in communication. Like only 7 % of our communication is the words we use. So don’t do the email route. So Claire, thank you so much. Wonderful, wonderful guests for the show. I appreciate you sharing your time with myself and the listeners and
Claire Copeman (01:14:48.182)
you
Jason Elkins (01:14:54.554)
look forward to collaborating on some projects with you in the future. Thank you.
Claire Copeman (01:14:58.006)
It’s been a pleasure. Thanks, Jason.
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