Enjoy early access to Colby’s story here; before it is published to all of the popular platforms on October 31, 2026.
Episode #212: Colby Brokvist
Expedition Leader & Guide Trainer
Waypoint Guide Academy
Guest Bio
Colby Brokvist is an experienced Expedition Leader and Guide Trainer with Waypoint Guide Academy. Since beginning his guiding career in 2004, Colby has led diverse adventure activities including backpacking, rock climbing, wildlife viewing, sea kayaking, nature photography, and sailing expeditions. He is the author of The Professional Guide’s Handbook, a respected manual on leadership in adventure travel. Beyond fieldwork, Colby develops guide training programs focused on leadership and conservation communication. He currently chairs the Board of the Polar Tourism Guides Association, promoting guide skill and safety in polar environments. Colby has also been featured in the short film The Guide by the World Wildlife Fund and serves as an ambassador for Tomorrow’s Air, a nonprofit connecting travelers with climate innovators.
Show Summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins sits down with Colby Brokvist to explore the evolving role of guides in the adventure travel industry. Colby shares insights from his extensive experience leading expeditions across varied landscapes, including the Arctic and polar regions. They discuss the essential human skills that guides need beyond technical expertise, such as group management, decision making, and interpretation to enhance guest experiences.
Colby also touches on the challenges guides face when expectations don’t align with nature’s unpredictability, using examples from polar bear expeditions where guests did not see bears but still had meaningful journeys. The conversation highlights how guiding has grown into a multifaceted profession requiring leadership, communication, and adaptability, as well as the importance of professional development for guides and operators alike.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Effective guiding requires more than technical skills; human and leadership skills are crucial for managing groups and creating meaningful experiences.
- ✓ Guides must calibrate guest expectations early and maintain open communication throughout the trip to build trust and confidence.
- ✓ Unpredictable elements, such as wildlife absence, challenge guides to creatively engage guests and focus on storytelling and local culture.
- ✓ The ability to read a group’s emotional state and respond appropriately is a key part of guiding professionalism.
- ✓ Bartenders and hosts share transferable skills with guides, including customer service, boundary setting, and fostering community.
- ✓ Honesty and authenticity build trust; guides should avoid fabricating information and instead use humor or transparency when unsure.
- ✓ Diverse backgrounds, including outdoor retail or biology, can provide valuable foundations for aspiring guides willing to learn and adapt.
- ✓ Professional development resources like Waypoint Guide Academy help bridge gaps in human skills training often overlooked by operators.
- ✓ Founders and senior leaders benefit from outside perspectives to avoid silos and improve guide training and culture.
- ✓ A successful guide balances operational logistics, guest care, interpretation, and risk management to deliver safe and rewarding adventures.
What You’ll Find on Waypoint Guide Academy
- ✓ Training focused on the human skills essential for professional guides, such as leadership, group management, and communication.
- ✓ Accessible online courses and workshops designed to fit the schedules and budgets of both individual guides and tour operators.
- ✓ Programs that help guides develop expertise in expedition leadership, conservation messaging, and guest engagement.
- ✓ Resources aimed at mentoring and advancing guide teams, supporting career progression within the adventure travel industry.
- ✓ Emphasis on building trust and confidence between guides and guests through practical frameworks and real-world scenarios.
- ✓ Support for operators seeking to enhance their staff’s ability to deliver seamless, safe, and memorable adventure travel experiences.
Learn more about Waypoint Guide Academy and connect with Colby at:
https://www.waypointguideacademy.com
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Jason (00:01)
Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. So happy to have each and every one of you back today to join us. And I’m I’m excited. We got another cool guest for you. We’ve got Colby Brokvist here. Colby is expedition leader and guide trainer with Waypoint Guide Academy. Colby, welcome to the show.
Colby (00:21)
Hey Jason, thanks for having me.
Jason (00:23)
Yeah. This is gonna be a fun one for me. We’re gonna maybe people already figure this out based on the very short introduction, but you’ve spent an awful lot of time guiding. You work with guides, you have really kind of focused your life recently on how do we help make guides better and what do we need to know about guiding. I’ve worked as a guide. You know, I worked as a fly fishing guide. The very first guide trip I ever led was the first guide trip I’d ever been on. And I was the guide. So that was
Pretty intense. That might come up again. I I still remember it vividly. At the end of the day, my clients said, Wow, we’ve never been on a guide trip. you just really set the bar high and I and I avoided the I in hindsight I wish I had looked at them and said, You know what? I’ve never been on a guide trip either. So thank you so much. But
Colby (01:07)
Brilliant. Brilliant.
Jason (01:08)
that’s probably a mistake. And I think we’re gonna get into maybe why a tour operator should not send out their guide with clients having never even been around a guide. I mean I had a guide license, but anyway.
Colby, before we get into that, where I’m I’m physically in Arizona at the moment. We’ve got the wonders of technology. Where are you located?
Colby (01:28)
yeah, ph physically, right now I’m in British Columbia visiting some friends up here.
Jason (01:34)
Very cool. And where do do you have a place to call home?
Colby (01:37)
Yeah, in Colorado, in the Boulder Denver area.
Jason (01:40)
Very cool. Good good place for a person that is a guide and works with guides and and works in that business. That’s a good place to be.
Colby (01:45)
It’s great. It’s
very it’s very central to a lot of different things and yeah, one of the big benefits of being near a major airport and you know, there’s conference centers and outdoor centers and a bunch of guiding services and plenty of places to go play outside. so it’s great for for networking.
Jason (02:02)
Very, very cool. Before we we’re gonna figure out how the heck you got from where you were to where you are now. I know there’s some stories that kind of popped in along the way to influence your life path. But before we do that, let’s give our listeners just, I don’t know, I always say the 60 second elevator pitch. we could be talking for the next 60 minutes with the 60 second pitch. But let’s start with what is Waypoint Guide Academy? How do you help your clients, tour operators? What do you guys do?
Colby (02:30)
Yeah, thanks for asking. so Waypoint is built to service the human skill side of guide training. Yeah, we we often come into the come into the industry with technical skills, hard skills, some of our own personal experience. But the reality is, is, you know, rock climbing skills are great for rock climbing.
You know, canoeing skills are great for canoeing, but you need guiding skills for guiding, and that’s what Waypoint focuses on.
Jason (02:59)
I love that. You you made that super crystal clear because I’m thinking of like, you know, I worked as a fly fishing guide in Montana for a while, and there were some guides on the team that were very good anglers. They knew where the fish were, they knew how to catch them. And they would probably, their clients would probably catch more fish, bigger fish, whatever. But at the end of the day, the the clients would come back in and he didn’t listen to us. He did this. He was kind of grumpy. He da da da. He’s full of himself. And and then you’d get other
Clients that would go out with someone like me first time guiding, you know, and can come back at the end of the and say, I was great. And I think it was just because it was a fun day. We just had a lot of conversations, we engaged, we got to know each other, we connected. I don’t remember anything about any, I don’t even if we caught fish. I’m sure we caught fish, but yeah, right. So, and I know you’ve seen that. So what’s the boy.
There’s so many we there we’ve got so many different directions to go. But I see you you’re ready to say something. Go ahead, jump in.
Colby (03:50)
Sure, I’ve got one. I’ve got one. So I I love that
you said you didn’t even catch fish and it was a great day and everyone was happy and they gave you compliments at the end of the day, right? I was the manager up in Churchill, Canada for years for polar bear trips. And these these are you know
Like your trips, you’re going fishing. It doesn’t mean you’re gonna catch a fish, right? But on a polar bear trip, like the intent is you’re going to go see a polar bear. And this is the best place in the world for it. And I’ve I’ve stood out there, you know, on on the machines out on the land, and you can see 25 bears in one spot, you know. And some some days you have to try harder than others. But what happened a number of years ago was the sea ice formed up early in November by like three weeks, Jason. And
What that meant was all the bears that were waiting on land to go hunt seals suddenly had the ice platform to access those seals. And overnight they all left.
And we had trips that were just starting up. So there was no time to inform the guests that hadn’t flown up yet of what was going on, right? They were, they were there. They were meant to go out on the tundra that day, and we were discovering all the bears were gone. And so those people were there for, you know, five or six days with their guides. And we worked really hard to do all kinds of great stuff for those people. I won’t go into all the details, but I had a team. There is about, I don’t know, like 12, 15 guides or something there that week.
And we got tens across the board on the trips, the guides, the overall trip. And we were like, wow, look at this. Like the it the one thing that this trip advertised we didn’t do. And these people said it was a trip of a lifetime, right?
Jason (05:29)
Okay, I have to ask because I’ve I’ve spent time up north, not quite that far I don’t believe. But yeah, like what do you do on a polar bear trip when there’s no polar bears in the tundra? ‘Cause this is all I’m thinking is there’s only so many pieces of grass you can look at. I don’t know how does that work?
Colby (05:43)
Sure. Yeah, we’re deeply
rooted in the community of Churchill. we brought friends that were from the community, people that had indigenous backgrounds or art backgrounds and things, and we put them out there with the people during the day so they could get something that was a little bit extra, right? That was out there. And of course the guides are very well informed, so they did a lot more
Talking and and the skill of interpretation, right? Connecting people to that place and storytelling. We still have Arctic foxes and ptarmigan out there. You can talk about the tundra landscape. Like there’s a lot going on in the Arctic. And so we started featuring all of these things. We also included evening programs that people could go to. So there was something a little bit special for them when they got into town. But mostly it was just about keeping the energy, the sense of community, the sense of expedition and adventure up during the whole trip.
And everyone saw that, you know, the guides, the you know, vehicle drivers, everyone was trying very hard for the bears. And sometimes nature is not in your favor, but by understanding the place and meeting the people in the community, they saw that it was this novel experience and a very vibrant place. And they were quite happy with what we were able to provide. It’s not to say people weren’t disappointed about the bears or that they forgot about the bears, but
They had an exceptional experience in the Arctic, despite having not seen a bear.
Jason (07:07)
And I suspect, I mean the guests presume this this might be a whole other conversation. Expectations, right? So guests have expectations, and some guests are really good at just accepting the fact that you guys don’t have any control over where the bears decide to go. And then you get some guests that are just kind of grumpy and pissed off. And well, you guys there’s gotta be some bears around here. You’re just too lazy, you don’t want to.
Spend the gas money to go find them, that type of thing. Did that happen on this one? Did you or but I know you’ve seen that type of thing in other scenarios? I don’t I don’t know what the question is, but jump in.
Colby (07:44)
We get challenging guests, Jason. Yeah, we sure do get challenging guests.
And you know, sometimes it’s like, yeah, there maybe in this case people are a little disappointed. They don’t quite understand what’s happening. Maybe they’re not used to wildlife and nature tours. They came as a one-off on this and they don’t understand that. I I I mean, not to be trite, but like you it’s not a zoo, right? You can’t just drive up and see the animal. You they’re you’re out there trying to figure it out. And so they need some help understanding that.
But you know, it comes back to these guide skills that we’re talking about. So these are the human skills, right? And you know, yes, our guides have experience with the wildlife and finding the wildlife and photographing the wildlife. And I would throw those into technical skills, subject knowledge, right? But then the the people side of that and being able to organize that group and what are, you know.
really can be distressing circumstances for some people. Like imagine the school teacher that has saved up for five years and not gone on any vacations because they have this dream of seeing a polar bear in the wild, right? This iconic animal and that it’s a it’s a it l is literally a trip of a lifetime for them. And it was from the minute that they signed up. And then there’s no bears, right? So we you know we need to be there for those people and present our very best for those people but help them through the
But if we come back for a second, you know, like we’re we’re so we’re
I think we got in here because you know, no fish on your trip, no bears on our trips, right? So it’s like, whoa man, like the you’re you’re sort of not achieving the kind of bare minimum of the trips. But what what are the trips all about for people, right? We think of guiding as enabling, like, I’m gonna bring people to the place where they’re gonna fish. I’m gonna give them the fishing equipment. I know what flies, you know,
Jason (09:27)
Mm-hmm.
Colby (09:28)
what the hatch is doing right now. So I’m gonna like keep it, right? You have all this knowledge. Same thing for us with the polar bears, right? And
And that enabling aspect I think is what a lot of people think of when they think of guiding.
But it’s just one small slice of what guides really do, right? We’re we’re there as counselors to help them understand the place, to, you know, to work with their own emotions. Maybe, maybe on some trips, think about guiding, you know, rock climbing trips or river rafting or backpacking. People are up against physical risk and physical challenge, right? So we we can help them through that. There’s interpretation where we’re teaching them about the area, we’re connecting them to the places, we’re we’re
Making relationships with the local people, right? And helping them to understand the story of the place. And then while all this is going on, we’re architecting the trip.
And dealing with all the logistics and the operations and like, we’re gonna be late for dinner and like how’s this gonna work? And you know, whatever. We’ll get a flat tire somewhere. Yeah. So the guides are doing all these different things and and you know, those things are all kind of playing in concert together. Maybe it’s like a mixing board, you’re adjusting sound levels, right? And it’s like, okay, over here, like we need a little bit more attention to the logistics today. Over here we need a little bit more attention to, you know, what’s gonna keep people from getting frustrated. And that’s that’s what
Jason (10:44)
Yeah, or hurt.
Colby (10:45)
Guiding’s all about.
Jason (10:46)
And you know, when you when you mentioned, you know, we some people think, you know, maybe newer guides or people that want to be guides, they’re thinking, yeah, like fishing. My job is to take people out and help them catch fish. And that might be okay for a while, but honestly, what I heard when that came up, what I felt in my body was how friggin’ boring, honestly. Because
Colby (11:10)
That’s right.
Jason (11:11)
If that’s all I’m doing is I’m just rowing the boat down the river and tying flies on for them, like but but you and I both have seen maybe this is not an ageism thing, but we’ve seen guides have been around for a long time that that’s just kind of what they do. And I
Colby (11:28)
Sure.
Jason (11:28)
look at them and I’m like, my gosh, I hope I never get to that point. And those guys would come in at the end of the day.
we’d settle up with the clients because I ran a the outfitting business, you know, that I’ve had done a few things. And and I’d ask them, I’d say, Hey Johnny, how was your day? They caught 32 fish, you know, six of them over twenty inches. yeah, fishing was pretty good. And you’re just like, my god, please
Colby (11:53)
Yeah, it’s just functional.
Jason (11:55)
don’t ever let me get to that point. so I love what you said about the orchestrating and the managing things. yeah.
Colby (12:01)
Yeah. Have you
heard of Adair’s leadership model at all?
Jason (12:05)
No, tell t well, I’m not sure. Tell me about it. I might recognize it, but I’m sure
Colby (12:08)
So so Adair
speaks to this, and this is this is one of I think like the kind of find foundational ideas that new guides in the industry need to become aware of. So I like your your point is really solid, right? A lot of people like, yeah, I want to be a rock climbing guide, I need to know how to rock climb. End of story. Right. But it’s not it’s not that. So Adair’s says that good leadership, you need to, you need to attend to task team and individual. And a lot of guides attend to task really, really well.
But they’re not really paying attention to their whole group and the group needs and all the, you know, dynamic nature of that. And they’re certainly not getting down to the individual level, having personal conversations with people and figuring out how they can personalize the trip experience for them and help them connect emotionally to these places. And in as soon as we unlock that for guides, that that’s useful because it’s like, I can do all of these other things for people. But then we can also teach people how to do those things better. Yeah.
Jason (13:03)
It’s it’s a very simple simple concept. But one thing I used to do differently when I was guiding, not the first guide trip. The first guide trip, that was a total cluster F. I I left the keys and I had the keys in my pocket so that people couldn’t move my car. They had to call my wife. She came over, yeah, all kinds of cr I just wanted to get through the day. It worked out really well, fortunately, fond memory. but a little bit later on in life I realized that I can’t there’s certain things I can’t.
But there are things I can. And I would just, I would do like a really nice lunch. And people sometimes would ask me, why? Why, you know, why do you do all this stuff for lunch? You don’t have to. We came here to go fishing. You don’t have to do all this. But I don’t think, I don’t remember anyone ever actually complaining. And I very clearly was like, well, I can control lunch. I can’t control the fishing. I can control lunch. Meaning not just the what what do we eat? It’s like, where do we stop?
what’s around us when we stop. Can am I likely to find some cool beetles or ants or something in this lunch spot that well, you know, that I can show them some other stuff that honestly they’re not gonna see if they just sitting in the boat eating a a hoagie, you know, at at noon. And it was that that ability to control things and people would rave about the lunch. Yeah, they spent a spent a lot of money come here, go fishing. If the fishing was good, they’d catch fish anyway. Fishing was bad, they’d have a really good lunch.
Colby (14:23)
So we we call those wow factors, right? Just elevating
Jason (14:23)
So I Yeah, exactly.
Colby (14:27)
the experience somehow for people. And like you said, that’s something that you can control that shows a lot of attention to detail and forethought. And it’s just it’s really nice. It’s like, man, we were in the middle of nowhere, and then this guy brought out a picnic blanket and this huge cheese spread and special sausage that was made out of moose up in Montana. You know,
Jason (14:44)
Yeah, yeah.
Colby (14:45)
it’s like, yeah, that’s that’s cool, right? It’s what it’s all about.
Jason (14:49)
It is the wow because it was like, my gosh. Like ’cause usually we just pull up the boat, you know, and I’d set them maybe to fish a little bit while I was getting stuff set up.
Did you get all this stuff? Like, why do you have you have a folding, you have like a little picnic table, you’ve got folding chairs, you’ve got a little Coleman grill. And they didn’t even have a clue. Like, where did you they thought I just had it stashed or I had somebody came and set lunch up? I No, that was all in the boat the whole time. You guys you just didn’t notice it. And yeah,
Colby (15:15)
Yeah, sure.
Jason (15:16)
it it’s fun. Fun for me too, because I don’t know. Here’s my theory. If I’m having fun, they’re probably gonna have fun. And I don’t know if that works for every type of personality, but for me
It works because I’m having fun. If they’re having fun, they’re gonna have fun. If I’m having fun, do you think that’s important for the guy to have fun?
Colby (15:34)
If people aren’t having fun on their own vacation then something’s wrong.
Jason (15:37)
But no, but I’m saying is it important for the guide to have fun? Or is that just my ADD thinks I’m not gonna do anything
Colby (15:43)
Yeah.
Jason (15:44)
unless it’s fun, or is that important?
Colby (15:46)
Well, I mean, it depends on your philosophy in life, but if I for me, if I’m not having fun at my job, that’s I don’t want to be doing that, right? Another n great thing about guiding is like our work life balances are are just it’s very intertwined. You know. So yeah, I think people should be having fun out there enjoying it. Like if you’re enjoying fishing with people and having some laughs and, you know, cruising down the river, you know, hitting some riffles, like that’s great, right? That’s that’s what it’s all about.
Jason (16:12)
Do you think that the guides when you you you talked we talked about the polar bears when there weren’t any polar bears, the polar bear expedition without polar bears? Do you but you also mentioned these were good guides, probably experienced, kind of knew what they were doing. Your reflection of it was was this a nice change? Like, this is kind of good because we get to do some stuff we don’t normally get to do? Or was it like, this sucks?
Colby (16:31)
Okay, here’s
here’s the dirty secret, right? So I like I like to say like a lot of adventure travel these days, like we we kinda build the adventure out of adventure travel, right? The the guests the the
Jason (16:42)
Mm-hmm.
Colby (16:44)
this day and age, the modern adventure travel guest, right, they they want everything to be orchestrated. They want to feel like they’re out there having an adventure, they’re in a new place and things are you know challenging either emotionally or physically for them, right? Or both.
But they want it all kind of orchestrated and like the bus should show up when it’s supposed to show up.
Jason (17:01)
Do you think they let me ask you this though,
before I I hate to interrupt you, but do you think they say they want that? And then the next part that I hope we go with this is do they really want that? What happens when things yeah. Exactly.
Colby (17:13)
What they what they want is the story afterwards. What they don’t want
is any real hardship. And this this is the thing, right? They want it all orchestrated. But for for the for the guests, or maybe they maybe they’re okay with a little bit of hardship, but not a lot of hardship, right? But they but they like the story later, right? And then they it i it’s the feeling, right? It’s this feeling you get and the story is and it’s like, wow, I did it. It’s i it’s exciting and you know, you accomplish something, but too much of it is just a mess. And why did I hire a guide for the mess,
Jason (17:38)
Yeah, yeah.
Colby (17:39)
right?
Jason (17:39)
Mm-hmm.
Colby (17:40)
And so, you know, there’s an expectation that we’re gonna manage things seamlessly. And yes, when you’re in a dynamic expedition environment, things aren’t gonna go exactly as envisioned, right? We have strategies in place to deal with all of the, you know, the scenarios and contingencies. And so for the guides, you know, that day-to-day orchestration, it’s like, okay, here we go, we’re gonna do it, right? And they’re there it’s dangerous. There can be some aspect of business as usual in there, right?
Jason (18:07)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Colby (18:08)
but when things really go wrong, that’s when we get to use all of our skills, right? Like we’ve been trained for like weird scenarios, we’ve built these contingency plans, we have relationships with local people, we can problem solve things, we can help guests through something that’s a little crazy that that was unexpected, but that we’re still prepared for because we’re professionals. And that’s when it’s way more fun for us. And the guests are kinda like, why are all these things happening? And you’re like, I don’t know, but
I’m on today, you know, here I am, I’m gonna shine. And sometimes they recognize that, you know. I I another thing that we talk about sometimes, it’s like you almost need some things to go wrong. So the guests
Jason (18:46)
Yeah.
Colby (18:47)
see just kinda how good you are out there, or how good your team is and what your capacities are. And then they then they like, Well, I would have never known what to do or, you know, whatever it might have been and they see you just smooth it out.
Jason (19:00)
That’s that’s true. I mean, and I I w the example I was gonna I was thinking of was bears and it’s interesting ’cause we’re talking about polar bears. But yeah, it’s kinda like if you do come across a bear, close contact with a bear in Alaska, wherever you’re guiding, or or something that’s kind of that you don’t see every day. And then the guide steps in and keeps you safe and and ha manage this manages the situation in a way that you’re like
as a as the guest, I’m like, man, I’m over here crapping my pants. And this guy just stepped up. He knew exactly what to do. He put us in the right place. We had this amazing experience, this amazing story. We didn’t get eaten. And that’s the that’s the guide you’re gonna look back later on in life and think, man, that guy was good. And the guide knows it, I think.
Colby (19:45)
Yeah, I think so, you know.
But you know, when it comes to those kind of situations, like the great guides have prepared the guest beforehand. And this is one of the big
Jason (19:54)
Right.
Colby (19:54)
things about like the group skills, the people skill side of things, right? It’s not just about if that guide can step forward and manage that, you know, grizzly bear and the alder thickets in Alaska, right? They’re they’re preempting all of the like scenario, like in the they’re bringing the emotions down, they’re increasing people’s kind of analytical brain, giving people the tools of like, hey, if
this unexpected thing happens, here’s what you can expect is actually gonna
Jason (20:21)
Okay.
Colby (20:21)
go on. And here’s how how I want you to behave. Here’s what we’re gonna do. Here’s what you’re not gonna do. Right. And then that gives the guy the ability to to have confidence in the group to where they can step forward and then manage that bear. And it’s a t it’s a big team effort, right? When it’s done right.
Jason (20:36)
But it also
yeah. And it also kind of creates that excitement for the guest whether they see a pair or not, is what I is what I’m hearing when you say that. And
Colby (20:44)
Yeah. And
it’s another example of like, you saw this coming beforehand. Your experience prepared us and I felt better in that scary situation when I feel for my life because the guide had prepared them and then took care of the issue and it was the issue was a non issue. Yeah.
Jason (21:02)
Right. And
and even if the bear doesn’t show up, it kind of creates a a sense of excitement. So here’s where I’m going with this is I remember I went with a guide in southern Alberta and I had been guiding by then. I had been with guides. I’d guided quite a bit. And this guy, as soon as we got out of the truck, he started talking about bears. And it seemed like we walked down into a canyon. It was a good hour, hour and a half walk, and he was doing, Hey bear, hey bear the whole time.
And what I realized after was like I don’t even know if there were bears there, but I had an amazing day with him because he he created this excitement level and this adrenaline rush that that I actually really enjoyed. And I was like, you know, even if he knew he wasn’t gonna see a bear, maybe there’s no reason to be doing that, but I thought it was cool. I I don’t know why. Maybe it’s pr just part of me. I don’t know why I’m sharing that other than
I felt safe with him. I felt like he knew what he was doing. He had a plan. I don’t know if we ever would have saw a bear or not, but it really didn’t matter because the whole day I was excited to be there. Like, you know, just feeling like, ooh, I’m having an adventure, but I’m safe because ’cause this guy seems to know what he’s doing.
Colby (22:11)
inspired the guide was good because they inspired trust and confidence in their ability. But maybe you’re
Jason (22:16)
Right. Yeah.
Colby (22:18)
not even sure why, but you knew that you trusted him. Yeah.
Jason (22:21)
Yeah, yeah, it’s that
and I mean there’s there’s so many stories. You have a bunch of stories. Yeah, please. Yeah.
Colby (22:31)
Well, can I can I comment on that before before we peel off?
So like these are the I I I call these the unseen skills, right? These are the unseen, like nobody nobody really knows like how come how come you had trust and confidence in that guy, right? It’s hard to pin down. And there’s just all these little things that you do, like from the your initial meeting and greeting with people to how you lead your briefings to how serious you take safety to your subject knowledge of the area. We can throw experience in there, like sometimes, you know.
You can like, I’ve been doing this for 20 years. Like, okay, like it’s better than someone that showed up today, right? So there’s, but it doesn’t have to just be I’ve been doing it a long time, right? There are a lot of things where guides can hit their marks and the guests they pick up on that and they’re like, all right, this person is on point and I feel good about this, right? Unseen skills. But but those
Jason (23:21)
Yeah, yeah. I get that. It’s
Colby (23:24)
are systematic, you can systematize those things.
Jason (23:28)
Can build those in. And I remember when because I also had a hot air balloon ride business. I grew up around balloons and I had this balloon
Colby (23:34)
Interesting.
Jason (23:35)
ride business. And I’d meet my my guests in the morning. Obviously, there was a a process beforehand. I own my own business. So oftentimes I spoke with them on the phone before we ever booked anything. And we’d get out there and we’d go through the process and I lots of safety briefing stuff. You’re flying in an aircraft and
almost none of them have ever been in a balloon. So there’s certain things you gotta share with them. And I was shocked by how many times we’d be, you know, ten, fifteen, twenty minutes into the flight. Like they already got in the basket with me. It’s just me and them, like maybe two or three people. And we’d be five thousand feet off the ground and they look over at me and say, So Jason, how long you been doing this? And of course the joke always is I’d look at my watch and
About thirty minutes. You know, or
Colby (24:17)
Sure, yeah.
Jason (24:19)
I got my license three weeks ago. How am I doing? But the point was, because it seemed funny that like why would you wait until this point to ask me? But I know why. It’s because
Colby (24:29)
Yeah. In the end.
Jason (24:31)
I instilled trust and faith that they they felt safe with me. If they didn’t feel safe with me, if I backed my trailer into a car in the parking lot when I picked him up that morning,
Colby (24:43)
Good story.
Jason (24:43)
they wouldn’t have waited till twenty minutes into the flight to be asking me how long I’ve been doing this, right?
So I don’t know. but how do you convey that to how do you convey that to guides that are really good at technical stuff? Like how walk me through how or do you just rule people out? If you’re just like, dude, you’re really good at the technical stuff, but you your personality is like a bag of rocks. or can you actually help these guys get better?
Colby (25:07)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We could help everyone get better. But you know, the you know, if people aren’t the big social driver, like kind of alpha per like that’s fine, right? Like there’s also this misconception that the guy has to be this like charismatic, you know, person that’s up there in the front all the time. And like you can lead from the side, right? Guide from the side or you know, all there’s a lot of different ways for people’s personal style to fit in. But
But yes, you you can systematize like there’s methodologies for instilling that trust and for leading the group and you know getting them to understand your decisions and going along with those decisions. one of the one of the tricks for us is guides is, you know, and this is why guiding is so different than business leadership, is
you know, yeah, we’re kind of in charge and leading them, but also they’re paying us. So like if they don’t like their decisions and things that are doing, then they’ll try to change the game when you might know better. Right. And and so they they have that kind of in influence on us and it’s really tricky. And they can pull that card out almost whenever they want to. So you need to keep that card in their pocket for them. And and by doing that, in order to do that,
You know, like we said, it starts right from the get go. So like when you first meet them, are you dressed like a professional guide or are you dressed like a dirtbag? Right? Like did you give a good handshake or is your body posture good? Like what does that look like? We can teach people how to, you know, command themselves without, you know, taking away from their own personality. When they’re first standing up there in front of people, there’s a way to organize your welcome briefings and do introductions and like build some team.
Build some confidence in what you’re doing, let people understand the logistics, kind of bring them into your little world, let them know that you have a strategy and a plan, that you understand what they’re after. That’s a big thing of like communicating that like what is it that you look that you’re looking for? Like, all right, I want to go see a polar bear. And then you’re like, Okay, I understand that you want to go see a polar bear and I’m the person. Yeah, but like not taking those things for granted, but like vocalizing and having those conversations
Jason (27:00)
Unfortunately, they left last week. Yeah. Yep.
Colby (27:06)
and like kind of building, you know, and and then
You know, there’s expectations and I think you know, I’ve always heard like, set expectations for this and set expectations for that so the guests know what’s going on. And like I use calibrating expectations because that’s that’s two ways, right? Like I’m gonna provide a service for them. There are certain things that everybody signed up for that are kind of non-negotiables on the trip. Like that’s what we that’s what we’re doing, and those are those are the expectations that I’ll set.
But I wanna hear from them what they’re interested in and they can calibrate my own expectations to how I’m gonna personalize that trip and manage that trip for them. And when you start having those conversations early on, it builds trust and confidence very quickly. And then you do similar things through safety briefings, you have personal check-ins with people. You’re not just always speaking to a group, but like, hey, how is this for you? You know, it’s like, it’s you know, like we’re spending a half a day on the river, Jason, you know, like
You feeling good, like you know, like you like this spot, you’re feeling good about your casts, like is there anything I can do for you? You know? Do you want to learn something today? And having those check-ins and people are like, This person’s here for me, right? And then when everything hits the fan and it goes bad because you’re in some kind of expedition environment, right? And those things can be awful, depending on where you’re at, right?
Jason (28:21)
Yeah, yeah.
Colby (28:21)
you know, then they’re like, All right.
Here’s something crazy. And instead of f everybody chiming in and just group chaos of their, you know, lack of perspective and understanding and skill, but they want to solve the problem, they just let it go and they turn to you because they know that you have your like the best interest of the guests in mind, right?
Jason (28:40)
Yeah.
Colby (28:41)
And so you hit your marks all the way and and then you’re good to go. But if you miss those marks, then there’s no trust and confidence and then it’s really hard to manage people and it only gets worse
Jason (28:52)
Yeah. I I hear you because if you’re a twenty two, twenty-three year old guy and you’ve got clients, you know, especially a lot of these expensive trips, these are people that probably run their own companies. You know, they’re there’s CEOs, doctors, we probably have a whole conversation around doctors. I don’t know what you’re taking. But but not knock I’m not my point is that you have people that maybe are a little older, a little bit more
used to making decisions, a little bit more used to being the person in the room that’s kind of directing things and then you’ve got a twenty two, twenty-three year old guy that shows up to to take them fishing or climbing or to go look at polar bears. where am I going with this? Is that yeah, you gotta work a little bit to establish that trust and that I love that you you know, the collaborative type of thing. Because if I just show up and I say, okay, here hey guys, here’s what we’re doing today. We’re gonna jump in the truck, we’re gonna
drive ten, fifteen minutes to a spot we’re gonna put the boat in the river and we’re gonna go fly fishing and we’re gonna catch rainbow trout, that’s not enough. Right? That’s that’s not gonna that just sounds like you practiced your you know what you’re gonna do, but you’re not engaged. You’re not like, so guys, how long you guys been fishing? So, you know, like what do you what do you enjoy most about it? What’s you know that and have that collaborative conversation. I’m thinking is what helps create that. Is that that’s what I’m hearing you say and and okay. All right.
Colby (30:14)
Yeah. Yeah, there
has to be some there has to be some back and forth, right? You’re yeah, it’s not the military, there’s no hierarchy, you’re with people on vacation, right?
Jason (30:24)
Yeah, yeah.
Colby (30:25)
And yeah, there’s gotta be some community and camaraderie built into the whole thing. And that allows you to do your job way better if you if you can tap into that.
Jason (30:34)
Right. If you if you’re a tour operator and you need some guides, I don’t know that matters what type of guides, but you need some guides. And you’re trying to but you’ve got the challenge of you for whatever reason you can’t hire anybody who’s ever been a guide before.
Colby (30:50)
Okay, yeah.
Jason (30:52)
What industry
are you going to? Where do you put your your
where do you focus on? What kind of people let’s just say they’ve got the tech skills. You know, they know how to climb a mountain. They’ve never been a guide and they have a real job or normal job. What kind of industries do you go to to look for people that are generally a more natural fit? Or are there any?
Colby (31:09)
Yeah,
thanks. This is this is good. So I I would say people come into the industry through wildly different pathways these days, right? of course, like you’re saying, like you want to be a fishing guide, you should probably know how to fish, right? Rock climbing guide, but but also like I’ve hired and and trained rock climbing guides in Yosemite that have never been to Yosemite before, but they’re really good rock climbers, right? But I’ve also hired people that, you know
kinda kinda know rock climbing a little bit, but can be a great assistant guide, but they know Yosemite inside and out, right? They
Jason (31:44)
Mm-hmm.
Colby (31:44)
know the area, they’re from there, they can talk about all kinds of stuff. You put those two people together on a team and the guests get everything that they need, right? So but also like a lot of my work, for instance, right now, like I I do a lot of expedition stuff on like sailboats in Antarctica and a remote camp in Greenland and I’ve done big long, you know
multi-week backpacking trips and you know, all of these things around the world. And those guides, I mean, we come from all over the place. Like we have biologists that have come in and then they’ve learned how to do zodiac driving and they’ve learned how to take people on, you know, snowshoeing trips and things like this, right? But they have this biology background and they can talk all about tundra plants and or marine mammals or whatever it is, right? So they add this interesting component. So they’ve kind of come come in because of biology, but now they can do all the things.
Right. Like other people, they come in because it’s like, well, I’m a certified kayaking guide and I’ve been all over the place and you know, work in a polar environment. They come into our camp. It’s like, well, this is great. Like at my company, we need we need qualified kayak guides, but we’re also a nature and wildlife company. So they need to then learn about the environment and start being able to tell people about sea ice and climate and glacier recession and polar bears. Right. So they learn that. as you go.
Into the industry, like or or if you’re in your scenario, you’re looking to hire someone, right? You’re looking for some minimal level of competency that’s gonna complement your team. And you’re looking peep for people that are gonna be trainable, right? That are open to all of the other things that makes your program or your company special that they’re like can move up into. No one’s gonna come
Jason (33:26)
Okay.
Colby (33:26)
with all the skills that are perfect for.
You know, think of how many different adventure travel companies are out there, even operating in one place. But everyone has their own little niche, right? So the guides have
Jason (33:38)
Mm-hmm.
Colby (33:39)
to be mentored up into that.
Jason (33:41)
That makes sense. And I I wanna change the scenario a little bit ’cause I’m ’cause I’m curious. There’s a some I’m working towards a direction here. And let’s imagine that, you know what, we can teach them all the hard skills. Like we can teach them how to run the zodiac. We can teach them the biology. And I’m I’m not minimizing any of this stuff because I know it’s not always that easy. But I I need to go find somebody that’s like never worked in tourism, maybe never even done never even been to the Arctic.
but I gotta go hire someone. So am I what industries am I looking at? Am I going to look for bankers, finance people, school teachers, bartenders? Yeah. That’s where I’m going with this.
Colby (34:18)
Customer service. Yeah, I mean, somebody’s somebody’s
worked at an outdoor gear store doing sales for five years, putting themselves through college. I want that person, right?
Jason (34:29)
Okay.
Colby (34:30)
Yeah. I want people that understand people and relating to people and the the service that the guests are going to to end up needing. If I if I have to teach people every single skill that they need out there, then they better come.
willing to talk with people with a personality. Yeah, you know, like to your earlier point,
Jason (34:45)
With a personality and a ability to connect to people. You gotta bring something to the table.
Colby (34:50)
like they wanna come and they wanna have some fun. They relate really well to people and they wanna just get out there and like and do it, you know?
Jason (34:57)
It’s come up a few times in conversations I’ve had here on the show. similar type of questioning and and conversation around like who do you look for? And but it also comes up sometimes because we always get into, well, where did you come from? So we’ve had a couple other conversations where I say, Well, how did you get started? And we’re gonna have that with you as well. but a common one I keep seeing come up is bartending. Bartending, restaurant servers, and bartending, it came out of a conversation with a guy that’s leading group trips and
And I like the light bulb went on. I’m like, ’cause you have a variety of different people that are there for a variety of different reasons. Some of them are drinking, so it makes well most of them are drinking. And the bartender that’s able to keep keep up with everybody and make everybody in that bar feel like they’re they’re seen and they’re heard and they’re understood, but still being able to set boundaries and all that
Colby (35:46)
Yeah.
Jason (35:47)
stuff. So I don’t know. I just always thought that makes sense for a a good trip later.
Colby (35:50)
The bartender is
perfect and and the host is the other one. And it it I
Jason (35:53)
Mm-hmm.
Colby (35:53)
love that you mentioned that because in the professional guides handbook I write about both of those things when I’m talking about the service aspect, you know,
Jason (35:59)
cool. Mm-hmm.
Colby (36:01)
being being the bartender and like people come in, it’s like all right, now you know what that person’s drinking. You know, and and if they come again, you know, like hey, it’s not like, Hey, can I get you another drink, buddy? You know, it’s like, Can I get you another whatever it is that you’re you’re drinking, right? And then but listening, you know, like you know like I’ll love.
Bartender is like a psychiatrist sometimes too, right? Like, you know, tell me about your problems at home, Bob.
Right. And then
Jason (36:26)
Mm-hmm.
Colby (36:26)
a host. Like, what does a good host do? Right. It’s like, well, you welcome everyone when they come in, you find a place for their coat. If they have any dietary needs, you got, you know, something on the hero d’oeuvre plate that’s special for them and you make sure that they see it, like, these are for you. I thought of you. You know, you make connections between the other people that are at your party, you know, you do some toast. Right. And so bartenders and hosts in in guiding go hand in hand.
Jason (36:53)
Do you think that there’s a ’cause I’m thinking like camp hosts, let’s say a Safari camp in Africa or maybe on an expedition ship or something. I don’t know what they call it. I don’t know if you’d call it a a host, an expedition leader. Where I’m going with is the difference between the guide that goes out with people on the expeditions all day and then the person who’s kind of at camp, maybe the manager running everything. is there a natural progression? And the reason I’m asking is ’cause I remember when I was I was
running a lodge in Belize, fly fishing and scuba diving lodge. And the the guides were all local and they would say things like, I don’t know why we need you here. You don’t need to be here. And and I’m and I would look at them, I’d say, Okay, but do you want my job? You know, so there is a difference. so I’m just wondering Yeah,
Colby (37:37)
Well, when somebody has a complaint though, they’re very happy to have you there.
Jason (37:41)
and they don’t necessarily want to
Sit at the bar serving drinks all night and waking up in the morning to go make sure all the hot water heaters are, you know, lit.
Colby (37:49)
Yeah. But having somebody else to say, How
was your day? Like tell me about that encounter with a crazy wild animal that you saw, you know, like, you know, this and that. It’s
Jason (37:56)
Yeah, yeah.
Colby (37:56)
like great follow up and it allows them to share their experience and get that out and, you know, have some great food while you’re doing it.
I don’t know that there’s
Jason (38:03)
And I don’t.
Colby (38:03)
a natural progression. You know, some people I mean people go different ways in their careers, right? but they you know, the the places where those two roles are possible are very, very complementary. Yeah. And a good guide team and a good like interior team on the ships or like a hosting camp team, you know, when when things are in flow state, why boy, it’s it’s really something special.
Jason (38:28)
And I wonder I think if you’ve got if you’re in flow state, then it it’s pretty obvious. But I it’s I sometimes also wonder like I’m not sure guides understand how valuable the camp staff is or the the camp manager or the host role is as far as I I don’t know if I want to say running interference, but you know, there’s days when people come back and they’re a little bit didn’t
have their expectations weren’t met there and they’re a little bit disappointed with the guides and you gotta have the little pep talk and because you’re like, well, he’s your guide for the week. So I either
Colby (39:02)
Yeah.
Jason (39:03)
I either help make this a more enjoyable experience or I can go to the guide and and you know chew him out, which isn’t gonna help because now the guide’s gonna, you know, it just cr it can create a really bad situation, but I’ve also realized there’s other opportunities where I remember
Actually the first time I visited this lodge in Belize, the guide that was assigned to us, I don’t know. He didn’t have a lot of the the soft skills, the people skills. But but the camp the manager knew it, knew that. So before we ever met the guide, the I got the whole like this guy is the biggest, you know, best known captain in all of Belize and he’s he knows more about
This atoll than anybody else and he talked him up so much that I was able to overlook some of the the
Colby (39:50)
Yeah.
Jason (39:51)
the other things. I don’t know where I’m going with this, but does that resonate?
Colby (39:55)
Sure. I mean we all have things that we’re better at. I mean that sounds like that manager was calibrating everyone’s expectation
Jason (40:03)
Yes, yeah.
Colby (40:04)
and obviously had a guide with high value, but one portion of his skill set exceeded an another portion of the skill set, you know.
Jason (40:14)
What he did is he he intercepted the conversation that was probably inevitable two nights later in
Colby (40:21)
Yeah.
Jason (40:21)
the end of the week when everybody’s sitting down at the dining room table and you’ve got six guides and twelve anglers, and that’s what happens. The anglers sit down, and and by day two, you’re like, I’m not sure about my guide. He’s really quiet. I don’t, I can’t hear him, I can’t understand him. And by getting ahead of that.
I’m less likely to say that because I’m like, well, my guide’s great. He’s like the best boat captain in all of Belize and and it it just changes the nature of the conversations because clients clients talk, especially when
Colby (40:51)
There you
Jason (40:52)
it’s fishing or maybe looking for bears. I don’t know, or anything, I guess.
Colby (40:56)
Yeah.
I mean it’s a great example of this like a bit of a theme that we’ve developed here, right? Like you th this guy proactively calibrated everyone’s expectations. Something fell short, but they can see right past that because of all the other great things and they’ve been, you know, in this case kind of given a narrative that makes good sense and is accurate and works for them. So good on that manager, you know. But that that’s what it
Jason (41:17)
Yeah. Yeah. He was very good.
Colby (41:21)
is. I mean the the end of the day is the the guests expect
so much from their guides, right? And that when you start moving up into luxury travel and those camps and, you know, the higher end stuff, it’s just more and more and more pressure on the guides to be the everything. So it’s great that that camp manager can step in and be and just kind of recognize like not everybody can be amazing at everything, but this guy is the guy that you want to go do the thing that you want to do right now, you know? And it’s like maybe it’s not the most charismatic person that’s out there.
But if you want to do this thing, he’s your guy and he’s gonna keep you safe and the whole time and like there’s so much value in that. But the the trick
Jason (41:58)
Yeah, yeah.
Colby (41:59)
was is that you’re you’re managing those people’s expectations really, really well.
And that’s what I mean why we’re like guides in the camp staff or ship interior. Like everybody can really compliment each other. You don’t always have to be even when in guide teams we talk about this a lot, Jason, right? It’s like we as soon as you have a guide team, it’s like it should be easy. Be like, what are you great at? What are you great at? What are you burnt out on right now? What are you not
Jason (42:21)
Mm-hmm.
Colby (42:22)
right now, right? You have a little briefing, you know, kind of with your with your co-guide and then it’s like, okay, good, like I’m off the hook for having to, you know, talk about frogs in Costa Rica, right? ‘Cause I don’t know
Jason (42:33)
Eric.
Colby (42:33)
much about frogs and I try to fake it. Now you’re the frog person, awesome. Right? And then you can compliment each other that way.
Jason (42:40)
Speaking about faking it. I’m curious how you advise like if you’re training people ’cause I remember I was on a pack trip up in Montana and I grew up in Wyoming. I grew up in the Rockies and I was lead I was I don’t know, I when I say I’m leading, I put together a group. I was basically just one of the members of the group, but I was the guy for more of us who organized it. So I was not guiding. I was just a trip leader, kinda sorta.
What would you what do you call that? What do you what do you
Colby (43:07)
Yeah, great, sure.
Jason (43:08)
think? That yeah, because yeah, so I was there just to kind of keep the people in the group engaged and just maybe run interference or whatever, but obviously we had a head guide, we had a expedition leader’s a four or five day pack trip or whatever. Anyway, where I’m going with this. So at one point we’re riding on the horses and one of my guests asked one of the guides, like, so what mountain range is that? Clearly the guide had no idea.
And just made something up it. And the client’s like,
Colby (43:34)
Yeah.
Jason (43:34)
that’s very cool. And I know better.
Colby (43:37)
Yeah.
Jason (43:38)
And yeah, and there’s been other points in my life where I I know guides sometimes, you know, they catch a fish. what kind of fish is that? I’m like, I don’t know, I’ve never seen it. He’s not gonna say that. that’s a Rocky Mountain snuggered bug. I don’t know. So
Colby (43:51)
Sure, yeah.
Jason (43:52)
what do you advise people on that?
Colby (43:54)
Don’t lie to people. That’s the best way to reduce trust and confidence in your leadership, right?
Jason (43:55)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Colby (44:01)
That’s what I advise. Like, you know, there are high expectations of us, but at at some point we can’t be everything. And people do know that. You know, I I
Jason (44:09)
Mm-hmm.
Colby (44:10)
have a buddy we guided for a long time in the Sierra together and he’s an exceptionally good guide. And he could care less about botany and you know, this and the people would be like, what’s that flower? He’d be like, that’s a monkey flower. You know, he kind of look over and wink. But then
You know, and it
Jason (44:26)
Uh-huh.
Colby (44:26)
but then he’d make a thing out of it. You know, they would you come over here and be like, and look at these purple ones over here. He’s like, Th these ones are also monkey flowers, they’re purple monkey flowers, and look, there’s some red ones over there, you know, and he’d just make a big joke and everybody would like recognize pretty quick, like he has no idea. It’s just like, don’t don’t ask him about the flowers, just appreciate the flowers, right?
It and it’s and it’s great. And he and he made it fun and he acknowledged the guests and you don’t have to know what every single flower is in the forest in order to lead a good trip along the John Muir trail for three weeks, right? And and that’s okay.
Jason (44:58)
And I think I think people
appreciate that, that that honesty. Like if that guide had said, Man, I have no idea, but sure is pretty you know, or whatever.
Colby (45:07)
Yeah, this is it.
Jason (45:08)
It’s a beautiful range. That’s that’s the r that’s the left range. Over the that range over there, that’s the left range. The one over there on the other side, that’s the right range. You know, make a joke, right?
Colby (45:16)
That’s what I’m saying. And but
like we can look to like look at look at like all the river rat guides, right? Like that part of the culture is just like that kind of fun and nonsense. And of course there’s wonderful naturalists that are on those teams, but there’s also a lot of people that, you know, they’re just like kicking back PBRs and having fun on the river with people and and
Jason (45:35)
Mm-hmm.
Colby (45:35)
that’s
the most important part of the experience. And they’re they’re kind of known for making up funny and wild things, right? It’s almost
Jason (45:42)
Mm-hmm.
Colby (45:43)
like a challenge within some of the teams sometimes, right? It’s like, what’s the biggest thing I can get away with? But you know, but it’s also kind of dung tongue tongue in cheek, right? And you’re kind
Jason (45:51)
Yeah, yeah.
Colby (45:52)
of you kind of, you know, wink, wink, nudge, nudge at some of the other people, right? And it’s okay. But
You know, but the prob the problem is is when it’s not obvious and you’re really trying to make it up and then and then something goes wrong or a guest is in you know, maybe a emotionally or physically challenging situation and they are perceiving things differently than maybe is accurate, or just maybe in a negative lens. And you have to try to convince them otherwise you have now eroded everyone’s trust by earlier trying to make things up.
and they’d know that you were making stuff up. And then when it really
Jason (46:28)
That’s that’s a really good
Colby (46:30)
matters, then you don’t have control over your group. And so that’s the big danger. So yeah, if you’re gonna do that stuff, do it in a joking way, make it fun, but just, man, don’t make stuff up.
Jason (46:40)
It’s it’s kinda like the the a worst case scenario. Like you mentioned somebody that’s struggling. So if maybe you’re hiking or climbing or whatever, and you say, How much further do we have to go? and the guy either has no idea or he’s just a smart ass and says, only ten more miles or half yeah, ’cause I was in the
Colby (46:54)
It’s o it’s always a half a mile, Jason. It’s always a mile.
Jason (46:57)
army. Every t every twenty four mile road march we made, no matter what point during the march you ask how much further they’d say, just one more hill
Colby (47:06)
Yeah, just a coup couple more switchbacks, we’ll be there.
Yeah.
Jason (47:08)
So that might be a scenario where you think you’re being funny and they’re and they’re thinking ten more miles, so then they spend the last half mile, ’cause there’s only half mile left, they spend the last half mile stressed out, feeling like, my god, am I not gonna make it? They’re gonna have to pull me out of h here with a helicopter and they might not appreciate that humor once you know, so it’s just
Colby (47:26)
Yeah, well
you need you need to read your room and so then we come back to knowing your guests as individuals, right? Like what what do some people
Jason (47:32)
Yep.
Colby (47:33)
eat in the moment?
Jason (47:34)
Yeah, yeah. It’s you know, like in Belize, you we’d be sitting at the lodge the first night and they’d say, Well, what’s the elevation here? And we’d I’d stand up, look out the window to the ocean and say, About about ten feet
Colby (47:44)
Right, but like six six feet, yeah.
Jason (47:48)
But if you if you trip going down the stairs you’ll get to sea level real quick. So but but again play the room ’cause yeah, that can come off wrong as well.
Colby (47:55)
Yeah.
Jason (47:55)
What it what’s the biggest cause you work
Well, let me ask you this. I don’t know this, so I should ask. Are you working directly with people that want to be better guides or are you working with tour operators to help them train their train and hire guide staff? I guess would be the first question. Okay.
Colby (48:12)
Both, yeah. In in
large part I’m working with operators who want an outside voice and helping to develop their staff. And yeah, I do I I have some programs through Waypoint that are kinda out of the box that that people can do and that’s what Waypoint’s all about. But I also do a lot of bespoke training workshops, either in person, helping develop resources for companies or doing webinars and that.
but I do have a whole public side to Waypoint Guide Academy where guides on their own volition can sign up for anything from like learning photography skills to all of these big like expedition leadership things and a bunch of stuff in between.
Jason (48:49)
Okay. I’m curious with the maybe the more I don’t want to use the word corporate, but the the companies, the tour operators, trip operators that could, would, should hire you, what is their biggest blind spot? What is the like, because I’m sure there’s some operators out like, we’ve got the best guides in the world. Look at our trip advisor reviews. We’ve got this figured out. We don’t need anybody from the outside coming in, but everybody has a blind spot. So I’m wondering, have you noticed?
Patterns of blind spots that we should test
Colby (49:17)
Yeah.
Jason (49:18)
touch on?
Colby (49:19)
For sure. Yeah. it and it became more obvious to me. I I so after I wrote the professional guides handbook, I started h hearing a lot more from operators and doing some more things. And you know, the the problem is that there’s not enough time for all of the different training, right? And so operators tend to be really good at
Teaching people where to find gear in the garage and how to pull permits and, you know, the company kind of branding and mission and culture and all this stuff. they’re great at the technical skills, rescue practice and, you know, first aid and, you know, whatever it is in your particular realm of like getting all that stuff. And then going through all the operational, kind of standard operational procedure stuff and interfer interfering, interacting with the office. Maybe sometimes it is interfering. Yeah, you know, it
Jason (50:01)
Mm-hmm. That was an appropriate slope.
Yeah, I get it.
Colby (50:05)
It I mean by the time you get everybody together, you know, you you you have a budget for that and there’s all this time and plus, you know, accommodations and food. It’s expensive for p right. And so what gets left are these kind of human people skills that we’re talking about. And it it ends up being more trial by fire for the guides. so it ends up being a lot like a lot of just kind of getting out there and hoping that guides have the ability to pay attention and self-reflect. Your senior staff is trying to mentor junior staff while you’re out there really trying to.
attend to the guests and they may not have any training and how to actually mentor someone else, right? and then guests kind of getting upset and telling the guys this, that, and the other thing, right? So you can get ahead of some and then and then managers, operations managers or whoever you right, field team managers. So then it puts a lot of pressure anyway internally on all the other people around to kind of bring those people up.
and that’s that’s why I created waypoint because that’s the biggest gap that exists is some group management stuff and decision making and judgment when things get hard, you know, it’s
Like what you do? And not only how do you make decisions, but how do you how do you get your guests to get on board with those decisions? So that kind of group management, decision making stuff is a big one. And then the other one that that I notice is interpretation is a big one as well. So for those that don’t know, that are listening, interpretation is basically storytelling and you know, kind of subject knowledge sharing, local interactions, like building relationships.
And all the things that deepen people’s understanding and knowledge of a place that they’re traveling to.
Jason (51:38)
You know, I heard someone I love that you use the word interpretation ’cause I was having a conversation around languages, I think, and this person was explaining the difference between translation and interpretation. You know,
Colby (51:49)
Sure, yes, yes, yes.
Jason (51:50)
and I’d never really thought about it ’cause ’cause I think it was like, you know, somebody might have a job as a translator and then you might have someone as a job as an this came up in a tourism conversation. I think it was around her ability to s learning English to work with clients or something.
And she’s and she explained that while you could just translate as just very literal. This is what these words mean. This is this mountain
Colby (52:15)
Yes.
Jason (52:15)
in English is called that. And then interpretation is sharing the story behind the name and how it became that and helping create that connection. So is that is that kind of the same when you use the word interpretation? Yeah.
Colby (52:25)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, deepening
deepening people’s understanding of the place that’s there. Yeah. Bringing bringing meaning to their experience, right? They’re div they’re they’re learning more
About the world, about their place in the world, about the things that happen in other places and why those things happen, right? And so it it’s like
Jason (52:42)
Right. Okay.
Colby (52:44)
it when done really well, then interpretation can be very transformational for people. And it’s a it’s it’s an important guide skill, you know, from you know, interpretation isn’t entertainment, but you know, but it is kind of entertaining for people to hear about that spot. And it’s like, tell me more, that’s really interesting, right? But then when it’s done right, you start building some of these stories together, that’s the real interpretation.
interpretation where they really like deepen that understanding of a place.
Jason (53:08)
Yeah,
brings it together. back on kind of I I think the question was what are the blind spots? And you helped really share a lot of that. And I am also imagining or I think I know that a lot of tour operators, tour operation businesses were started by somebody not all, but were started by somebody that maybe was a really good guide. You know, they started their own business, doing, I don’t know, mountain bike tours or something.
And as they grew, they hired more people, and then they’ve got the marketing team and they’ve got the this and the that. And that person may have the skills to really interact well with people. But then as he a he or she adds guides adds guides to the team, I guess where I’m going with this is just because they had the skills when they were a young guide starting out their business doesn’t necessarily mean that they are the right person to convey those skills.
To their junior team members for one reason, just because, like you said, they’re busy. You know, they’ve got a lot of things on their plate. some people just have really good people skills, but wouldn’t know where to start teaching people skills. so do you is that w and if that senior person thinks they’ve got all those people skills, they just kind of naturally think my whole organization must have those people skills, but that might be a blind spot. So I guess the question is.
Do you have companies where it’s like, yeah, the tour op the guy that started the thing or the woman that started the thing still involved does a great job, but they would still benefit from hiring somebody from outside to come in and and convey those those things to their their guides?
Colby (54:42)
I mean my my
experience coming up as a guide is there’s always a benefit to having someone from the outside interjecting so you don’t get too siloed. But founders you know, yeah, and the other thing is yeah, sure, not everyone’s gonna be a great teacher. You can be great at something, but not great at teaching it, right? And and we see that a lot. But founders I I’ve sat through quite a few like kind of founder talks and it’s so inspirational.
Right. And that that culture that they have set, as maybe in your in this case that you’re putting out, like as a guide that started this company, right? Like the company culture is built kind of around them and their their worldview and what they have provided for guests. And now more and more people are attracted to that. They have this magnetism. And it’s so inspiring. And even if they’re not great teachers of those skills, to listen to a founder talking about what is in
important and what inspires them and what they love about their guests and you know, like it is very instructional and educational and and I find it very inspiring and there’s so much value to that. Now, are they the person to get into the nitty gritty and be like, here’s how to run a welcome dinner? Maybe, maybe not, right? Or like you said, maybe there’s just no bandwidth. So the bigger the organization gets, of course you need to scale and have more resources. Yeah.
Jason (56:00)
I
feel like I feel like the last fifteen seconds or so is just a why you should go on a podcast and share your founder story. ‘Cause and here’s what I’m saying is ’cause I I hear you and I’m like, yeah, I’m fortunate to be able to have those types of conversations
Colby (56:13)
Yeah, yeah.
Jason (56:15)
with with a lot of founders and I’ve had a few of them that say, Look, I shared this with my guide team and they’re like, I had no idea why you started the business or I had no idea what inspires you and it’s so that it’s just cool. I’m not pitching the show. I’m just saying
It is good to hear those stories and
Colby (56:30)
It’s
powerful. I listened to how I built this on MPR for years just for that. It’s it is. It’s very inspiring.
Jason (56:34)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
That’s that’s super cool. I wanna get into your story. I know we’ve been chatting for a while. I wanna get into your story, figure out, you know, and you’ve I you’ve I know you’ve heard the question, how did you get from how the how the heck did you get here? What were you doing before? All that stuff. I wanna touch on that, but but I’m not sure I w I wanna make sure we’re not leaving anything on the table that we need to discuss about the current topic before I start asking you about tell me about
Colby (57:00)
Jay.
Jason (57:01)
your childhood.
Colby (57:01)
I mean I don’t know that we need to discuss anything. Yeah, if you wanna switch if you wanna switch gears, let’s do it.
Jason (57:04)
I know. I know you’re like that. Well,
we can we cause we’ll probably depending on how much you want to go into the details of your childhood, we’ll probably could be back here in about ten minutes and be speaking more about this. But but I’m but we just also talked about the value of a founder story. Like how do they get started? What what inspired them, that type of thing. And I want to go there with you for a few minutes at least. So tell me, how far back do we need to go to understand why you and I are having this conversation today?
Colby (57:31)
always loved the outdoors. I was I was an Eagle Scout, you know, my dad was a scout master. We would always be out fishing and hiking and camping. We spent all our time in the outdoors. But when I went to college I I
went into an environmental science program because I figured you you’ll be outside and I was studying wetlands and getting out there and it was really cool. When I got into the real world of environmental consulting, I realized that it’s a lot of construction, government permitting, red tape, like that’s who’s hiring environmental consultants. And it really wasn’t the kind of outdoor environment I wanted to be in. and at that time, yeah
Jason (58:06)
What was what was it? Let’s let’s reflect. Like so
if I went back when you were I don’t know, let’s say fifteen, sixteen, or when did you get your Eagle Scout? How old were you?
Colby (58:14)
Yeah, right in there. Yeah.
Jason (58:16)
Okay. So I go to that time, I say, Hey Colby, man, congratulations, that’s so cool. You got your Eagle Scout. what do you want to do when you grow up? Do you know what you would have said? I I heard the outside part, but I also heard that you chose environmental consulting. So what did you envision wanting to do at the age of sixteen? Do you remember?
Colby (58:33)
I envision
doing research in the out in the outdoors. Yeah.
Jason (58:36)
okay.
Colby (58:37)
And I really liked like forests and wetlands and lakes and all of this, right? So my Eagle Scout project was like
part of a big a big program at a conservation area and we were putting in wood duck boxes trying to bring wood ducks back. There was a lot of like rewilding and restoration of this old area. So I imagined doing things like this, right? Then that that were more of a conservation oriented thing. And to be honest, I probably could have pursued that harder, but coming out of school there weren’t that many jobs. And so I ended up in this construction industry.
And but I had always wanted to hike the Appalachian Trail. we growing up, going up into the White Mount I grew up in Massachusetts, so going into the White Mountains, you know, was a big thing for us as the family in in New Hampshire. And you’d go to like Zealand Falls Hut or wherever and you know, you’d see all these hairy, dirty, smelly people coming by and like, what is this like this looks awesome, right?
Jason (59:32)
I lived in Vermont, I re I recall
that, yeah.
Colby (59:34)
You know,
and they’d be Yeah, I walked from Georgia and I’m going
Jason (59:36)
Yeah.
Colby (59:37)
up to Maine. We’re almost there, you know? It was so cool. And so I I had always had in the back of my mind that I wanted to do that. And then becoming disenchanted with my job working in the Boston area, environmental consulting, it was like and then they after I was there for about ten months, they gave me a promotion. And that promotion landed me on a computer in a cubicle in the office for a couple of days a week. And then I was like, No. Yeah.
Jason (59:59)
So life was getting worse. They promoted you and it got
worse. That’s what I hear.
Colby (1:00:02)
So two
weeks after my promotion, I gave him my two week notice. So I I only did that job for a month and then I went and I backpacked the trail. so out there on the AT I I did it with a buddy actually and so he had a biology degree. I had a geologic and environmental sciences degree and we knew a thing or two and people would ask, like they figured it out because we were like making salads out of plants as we went along and
Eating mushrooms, you know, like it was great. But people were like, what’s the you know, we’re walking from a national park into a national forest, what’s the difference? Right? Like I knew the answer to that. And so we became known in some circles down there as like these, like the nature guys, right? Like who are the like if you have some questions, like find these guys that are making salad every night, they know what’s up.
And then somewhere like out in Virginia, we’re just hanging out by the fire with these people that we had, you know, kind of been bumping around with for a few weeks. And one of the guys is like, you know, it’s really fun to be out here with you guys. Like w you know, when you’re done, you should go do this. You know, and it was just kind of a casual remark, but I was like, like, you know, nobody’s gonna pay you to just go hiking with people. And he’s like, no, no, there’s plenty of companies like you they’ll hire a backpacking guide and you go like you just gotta go out west.
like, okay. Like I never really heard about that, right? But to me, like guiding was was mountaineering and rock climbing and like whitewater river descent. And like that’s, you know, so it that’s what I heard when he was like, you should think about being a guide. I was like, I can be out in nature doing like stuff that I wanna be doing. Right. With no understanding of the customer service aspect of anything at all.
So anyway, I I decided after the trail that’s what I was gonna do. And I moved out to Boulder, Colorado.
and I earned some medical certificates. I started working at REI. I was volunteering, doing, you know, snowshoe walks and like gear show offs and things like this, like around the area, some of it through REI too, and just trying to like gain a little experience. And I ended up then landing myself a job in Yosemite as a backpacking and rock climbing guide and it changed my whole life.
Jason (1:02:09)
Very cool. Before we because I I want to hear that and what I heard when you’re talking about REI, I I reflected back to the moment when we were discussing about if you were gonna go out and hire guides, where would you go? I think you said I’d go to an outdoor shop and find a guy who’s been
Colby (1:02:21)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jason (1:02:22)
there for five years, you know, hawking equipment or whatever.
Colby (1:02:25)
Just guy.
Jason (1:02:26)
I’m making connections. All right, that’s cool. I get that. All right. So you get
Colby (1:02:30)
Yeah, but I’ve saw
I’ve seen a lot of like, you know, people that have come in and out either casually or seriously from the outdoor industry that that are connected with outdoor gear shops, right? Like just they’re
Jason (1:02:41)
Yeah. I
Colby (1:02:42)
just people that love love the scene and love the lifestyle and they wanna talk to other people about it and help them and they’re great.
Jason (1:02:50)
That was me wanting to work in a fly shop. I just thought that’ll be the most amazing thing. I just wanna be around it. Right. I’m like, I
Colby (1:02:56)
Yeah, totally.
Jason (1:02:57)
don’t know anything, but I’m learning I’m I qu I learn quick and I just wanna be here. I’ll dig holes, whatever. Just let me be around and yeah, I get that. All right. So Yosemite, you how did you get the job? Like just curious. what’s the what’s the story there? Did you were you looking
Colby (1:03:11)
Well, I called them.
Jason (1:03:12)
for a job that you okay, you reached out, all right.
Colby (1:03:14)
Yeah, I called them. I didn’t just just send in the application. I called them and was like, Hey, this is this is me. Like, do you think you’d be interested in someone like me? And I ended up talking to the owner on the phone for quite a while. And yeah, he gave me all the time in the in the day. It was so cool.
And like we hit it off and we’ve become lifelong friends actually. I was literally texting with him this morning. it’s it’s been twenty something years now. Right. yeah, it was great.
Jason (1:03:37)
Wow. That’s so cool.
Colby (1:03:39)
And so yeah, I s I sent him I sent him my application, I took it all pretty seriously and and and then yeah, I was hired, I was put through their little guide training program, which is like what I explained earlier, you know, all the permitting and all the things and
And then yeah, I had yeah I had a couple of legs up coming in because i I had my degree.
So to get put on longer trips, you know, you you needed some filler space. You need you need to make it move forward and you know, and I had a lot of things that I could talk about out there. So people found it interesting to be out there with me. And I learned everything quickly, you know, about the the natural history and the history. Like all I did that that those first two winters was just reading books and trying to learn and I was going to ranger programs in the park and, you know, trying to learn all that stuff.
And then the other thing that it turns out I was just naturally good at is all the logistics and operational organization. so because of those things, pretty early on they started putting me on all these long distance backpack trips. So anywhere from a week to three weeks.
And those those became more and more complicated over the years and that kind of led me into this expedition style stuff. And in the winters then I was I was kayaking, I did some you know, trail rides with horses, I did caving tours, you know, like when you’re young in your twenties, you’re trying to piece together all your seasons, right? And I I started I started
Jason (1:05:02)
Mm-hmm.
Colby (1:05:04)
doing polar bear trips because of I had a some connection with people in the industry and they brought me
to to do that and I’m still with that company now. That started in 2006. yeah, so like a lot of things came together over time.
And now I’m in this realm where, you know, mostly what I do is take people on sailboats to Antarctica and I work at a camp in Greenland and it’s all this like very wilderness expedition, make it up as you go thing, but also multi-sport kind of stuff, right? So like we’re walking with people on the glaciers and we’re going kayaking with sea ice and whales and we’re doing you know long hikes in polar bear country. And so it’s like everything’s come together and it’s really, really fun because it’s engaging for me.
Jason (1:05:45)
So cool. That’s so cool. We’ve
got somebody, somebody’s listening to this right now. Either somebody that’s in your world, in your network, because they know you, because they want to be a guide. I’m I’m specifically, this next question is for the person that’s listening that wants to be a guide. And you could say people that want to be anything. Some people tend to spend a lot of time getting ready to get ready. So like trying to learn everything they possibly need to know before they ever reach out to someone and say, Can I get a job?
And then you’ve got other people that think they don’t need to do anything. They just need to reach out and ask for a job. And someone might listen to you, might be like, well, I don’t have time to go get a degree in environmental sciences or biology or whatever. So that’s not really an option. But you’re also someone that works with people that want to be guides. So I guess I’m just curious. What’s your advice to somebody that’s listening to this right now that’s, I don’t know, in their in their twenties and wants to get a job? Really wants to get a job. What do they really need to focus on?
Colby (1:06:43)
It all works. I’ve seen time and time and time again and over decades I’ve seen it all work. it depends on what the employer needs at that time. Is this a fire drill for them and you’re you’re a you’re a warm body? you know, do they need somebody like right now and you’re just there? or are they looking to build a you know, specific
like fill a specific gap in their team? Do they need someone with specialized knowledge, you know? Like are you applying in California? Like my think of my old company, right? Like are you trying to be a long distance John Muir Trail trip leader? Or are you trying to just be a backpacking guide that can take people out for the weekend, right? B both of those are backpacking guides, but
Jason (1:07:26)
Mm-hmm.
Colby (1:07:26)
But the
level of knowledge and expertise on those two trips is vastly different. But I I do think the mistake that people make well, let’s let’s say th there’s two common mistakes. One is not having any certifications or anything at all, because
There’s a lot of people that are just kind of sick of their life or they need some money right now. It’s like, I want to keep rock climbing and I’m running out of money. So why don’t I work as a rock climbing guide in a cool place where there’s rock climbing, Yosemite, right? As a guide to make money and still be able to climb. Nobody wants to hire that person, right? But if you’re like, I’m a rock climber, I love that that, you know, kind of environment.
And then you go and you get your single pitch instructor course from the AMGA and you get a wilderness first responder course from Knowles Medical. You know, now I see somebody that’s gone and invested themselves in professionalizing
Jason (1:08:19)
Yes.
Colby (1:08:20)
their skill set and they and I’m willing to have a conversation with that person. So that’s that’s the first big thing, yeah.
Jason (1:08:25)
There’s right,
’cause there’s also the other you mentioned people that are just unhappy with their lives. Cause I remember I I you know, I’ve ran a few tourism businesses and they’re the reality is you get a lot of emails or conversations, social media conversations with people that say, I’ve been working in corporate finance for the last twenty years. I’ve got a great personality and I’m ready to I’m ready to go do what you’re doing. Can you please tell me how? Can you please get on a call with me? Can you please
this and that, or can I get an interview? Can I get a job? And what happens over time or happened with me, I shouldn’t say it’s not a generalization, but I kinda realized, yeah, those people haven’t left their 20 year corporate job. They’re probably not really going to. And if they’re gonna need to do something to show that they’re serious about this, because otherwise I’m just talking to another miserable middle aged guy who is dreaming about going and being a a guide somewhere.
So maybe that’s where certifications like, you know, take a leave of absence from your job, go to some sort of outdoor leadership school, prove prove that you’re serious about this. Prove to me that your wife is okay with you taking some time off from work to go to go do some of this training and then maybe we have a conversation. Is that Well, I know
Colby (1:09:39)
think you can ask those questions anymore but yeah but the
okay so this leads very nicely though into the second mistake that people make and and one is is just trying to make the job about you and how it’s going to fit into your lifestyle right because the employers want someone that’s hireable that’s trainable and that’s available on their schedule
So if you’re the person that’s, you know, it’s like, yeah, I want to be hired, but I can’t be bothered to go get this certification and I’ll quit my job as soon as you hire me for this job, that’s my dream job, like I don’t want that. Right. Like I you know, if you’re if your job is you’re an outdoor education instructor and you wanna move into adult tourism on luxury backpacking trips, that’s one thing.
Right. But if you’re an accountant and you want to start working as a guide, like you you need to be in that space, right? So that’s a huge red flag. and yeah, get your story streamlined, right? You want to be somebody that’s hireable. Like you’re not courting them to fit your lifestyle. They’re courting you to solve a problem that they have and you need to figure out what their problem is. And often that problem is having
having guides that they can actually schedule. Yeah. So I help a lot of people though that want to make these transitions. I I have a how to get hired class. And you know, there’s a lot of people that are looking for career changes. And so there, you know, there’s a lot of things that you can do to make yourself more hirable. But also I help people understand what the job is all about and make sure that they’re making the right choice for themselves. So it’s people switching careers, people moving up
you know, from one thing to another and, you know, trying to land the next kind of big role for themselves to, you know, better traps, bigger roles, more wages, whatever it might be, right? Those people moving up and then new people just coming into the industry from scratch.
Jason (1:11:36)
The new people coming into the industry from scratch. we talked a little about blind spots earlier. This isn’t this isn’t a blind spot question, but it’s more of a what surprises what do they not know that they really need to know when they’re just sitting there thinking, my gosh, it’d be great to be a guide.
Colby (1:11:52)
So yeah, and let’s let’s start with the things that they think they know, right? I’ll I’ll we kind of teased into rock climbing guiding, so I’ll just say rock climbing guides, right? rock climbing guide knows that they’re gonna need to have a certification in rock climbing, right? Single pitch or whatever it’s gonna be, top rope certification, and they know that they need a medical certification. So you better come with those, right? If you haven’t done that, it’s nobody’s really caring about you these days, right? Everybody else is walking in with that stuff.
But once that’s said, you know, it’s easy to feel like proud and empowered and like you’re kind of almost drunk on it, right? Like now I have these certifications, I can be a professional guide, right? Well, now, but everybody that’s a qualified candidate has those. Right? So now that’s your problem, right? Is that you’re just like everyone else. So how do you how do you set yourself apart now? And it comes down to the people skills. It comes down to being a sales rep at Rarii.
Jason (1:12:48)
No, I I get that and and there’s also the other part of it though is like, okay, someone goes out, gets all the skills, maybe has great people skills, they get a job and they’re like, I had no idea that it was gonna be very difficult for me to have relationships or family or or whatever and I’m not I’m not saying those are the things, but what are the things that people, you know, causes them to burn out quickly because they got the job but then they realized crap.
Colby (1:13:15)
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
I I I from what I’ve seen, right, people that don’t survive very long in the industry are the ones that don’t like the long hours or that that are doing an activity because they love that activity, but then they’re recognizing that they’re on the dime of the paying guests and it’s it’s not about them, you know.
like mountaineering guides that say, I’m gonna do this so I can go summit Rainier and next year I’m gonna go to Denali so I can summit Denali but then you’re with these guests, right, that can’t do it and you gotta turn around and go down. And then then they’re
Jason (1:13:52)
They can’t do it. What yeah, what are you gonna do? Yeah. Yep.
Colby (1:13:55)
like, what am I even doing this for?
And so we come full circle to what makes a good guide. Well, it’s it’s the people skills and the human skills and the relationships. And if you’re not in it for that, if you’re not in it for helping other people, you’re not gonna survive in the industry very long because when you have challenging guests or needy guests or you’re not achieving your own adventure objectives, there’s nothing in it for you anymore. Yeah.
Jason (1:14:18)
Yeah. Yeah.
I agree. And we go back to fishing real quick, you know, in Montana. people would often ask me, they’re like, Doesn’t this drive you crazy? You you’re out here all day and you don’t even go fishing. ‘Cause I’m never gonna pick up a fly rod unless I’m trying to demonstrate something and they’ve given me permission to
Colby (1:14:34)
Yeah, yeah.
Jason (1:14:35)
demonstrate something. But my point is they would say, You’re not even fishing. How do you how do you do this? You like to fish, right? I’m like, No, I love to fish and like, Well, but you go all day long, you didn’t fish at all.
I’m like, you don’t get it. I’m fishing through you. I’m enjoying
Colby (1:14:48)
Yeah.
Jason (1:14:49)
this. I’m enjoying. I would rather watch you catch a fish than me catch the exact same fish. And that type
Colby (1:14:54)
Yeah, it’s exciting.
Jason (1:14:55)
of thing. Yeah, it’s exciting. And that works. So if you’ve got if you love to fish this in that way, then probably be a pr pretty good fishing guide. Or potentially there’s other things too. But then there’s the other, you know, I’ve been other places where, you know, because I was checking out places, inspecting places, and I’d show up with the in Alaska and the guide would
Pull out his rod and go stand, you know, fifteen feet above you and start fishing. And you’re like, whoa. So
Colby (1:15:20)
Yeah. And making you feel
bad because they’re way better at it, and then you feel bad about yourself. Okay.
Jason (1:15:25)
Well, I don’t know about that. But but but what
but yeah, with a client though, you’re absolutely right. With a I mean, I I was
Colby (1:15:31)
Yeah, that’s what I’m saying.
Jason (1:15:32)
kind of a little full of myself, so I kind of thought, no, he wasn’t any better than me, but but yeah, you there’s only two things really you know, if a client is trying to catch a fish and hands you the broad and says, Show me how to do it, you’re either gonna make him feel bad. You’re gonna make him feel bad. I was gonna say there’s only two things. There’s only one real thing. Either you don’t catch the fish and he thinks you don’t know what you’re talking. That’s where I was going with this.
You you can’t catch a fish and he thinks you don’t know what you’re talking about. Or number two, you do catch a fish and makes him feel bad. So yeah, it’s i it just doesn’t work. I don’t know. That’s something I came across. But
Colby (1:16:04)
Yeah,
I mean I I I’ve seen that a lot too, right? I mean it well it it kinda comes back down to trust and confidence. Sometimes people just need to see that. You know, maybe what they need is for you to pick up a rod and show what you’re doing. And then they’re like, okay. Like now I now I understand it and obviously this guy’s right. Yeah.
Jason (1:16:19)
I just didn’t want to catch the fish. I Yeah, I
I get it. I wanna
Colby (1:16:23)
But like we’ve done that in like sea kayaking,
you know, and like trying to get people to like maneuver their boats better around sea ice or something like this, you know. If like if you guys can figure this out, then we can go do some more challenging things. But if you can’t turn right, you know, correctly. I’m not an amphi turner, I can’t turn right. No, if you can’t turn correctly, right, then
Jason (1:16:41)
Yeah.
Colby (1:16:42)
you’re we can’t take you out into this, you know, more risky environment. And they’re like the boat just doesn’t want to do this.
Jason (1:16:48)
Yeah.
Colby (1:16:49)
So
you gotta get in there, you gotta get in the boat, you gotta execute the maneuver that you’re trying to teach them and show them that that it works. Right. And then they’re like, okay,
Jason (1:16:54)
Show that it show that it can be done and and yeah.
Colby (1:16:58)
like this person knows what they’re doing, like the key the gear is good, right? They have that confidence built up. And then you can encourage them to practice a little bit more with you and now they’ll they’re on board. So it makes sense sometimes. Fish next to your guests, it’s okay.
Jason (1:17:06)
Yeah. Yeah, I like that angle. yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. But yeah, but if exactly. So I love that you brought that up.
Do you what’s the most significant? I mean, how did you get from doing all this guiding? Let’s let’s just talk real quick. Like when did the idea pop for you to we’re gonna do Waypoint Gate Guide Academy? How did that pop? And was there a challenge getting that started that for you as a like
Colby (1:17:34)
Yeah.
Jason (1:17:34)
because it’s a change. It’s a little bit of a change, I think. I don’t know. You tell me.
Colby (1:17:39)
Yeah, it’s a big change. I’m spending some more time, you know, intersecting with technology these days.
Jason (1:17:45)
Mm-hmm.
Colby (1:17:45)
but it’s also really fun to run my own business. you know, at that mountain guiding company I started with in California, I guided for them for seven years. sorry, for six years, but then for seven years I was the general manager of that company. and it was great fun running a business with my with my buddy, you know, and I really like all of that.
And so it’s been really fun and and rewarding. And then I’m intersecting with so many different people in the industry now, right? I’m you know, I’m working with safari companies and polar companies and hiking trekking companies, and you know, it’s really cool to hear from people and all the different things. And but like you said, there’s some themes, right? So one of the themes that came up for me after the book, and the reason I started Waypoint is because bringing everyone together.
is it can be tricky schedule wise and it can be really expensive and there are some must-dos when it comes to the company stuff like we talked about earlier. I won’t rehash that. And there is there there are always and always will be some training and development needs that are left on the table, right? And so what I decided to do is to make it more accessible and affordable.
And that’s what Waypoint’s all about, because you can take online classes from me anytime, and you can do it in piecemeal. Operators can buy products wholesale and they can put their people through it. And and my my vision is that we make this more fun and rewarding for everyone, for the guests, for the guide managers, for the guides themselves, right? It’s like none of the
You know, guiding isn’t magic. There’s some foundational skills. I don’t believe you need to go through a four year university program to learn outdoor leadership to be a guide.
Jason (1:19:28)
Mm-hmm.
Colby (1:19:29)
I I think you need to be a a a fun person that takes their work seriously and loves being around people and have some basic frameworks within which to do your job really, really well. And that’s well.
Jason (1:19:41)
Then then
the the next question I was planning to ask you and then you kind of started to answer it. So I don’t know, this might be sound seem a little redundant. But sometimes when we when we start a business, we go through the exercise, okay, who is my ideal client? Who is this for? And then sometimes the flip side of that, who is this not for? Some people even put it on their websites. You know, this is for this type of person. If you’re that type of person, it’s not for you. You’re in the wrong place. I kind of do that with my podcast. If you’re
If your idea of an adventure is an all inclusive beach resort or a large cruise ship, this is probably not the place for you. So I’m curious, with your business, do you have a this is for type of person and then it’s not for this type of person? And you just kinda started touching about having well yeah.
Colby (1:20:25)
Interesting, yeah. I I don’t
really have a statement like that. but I I like what you’re thinking. Most of what we’ve talked about today, Jason, falls under the the essential guide skills course that we have. But there’s a bunch of different products that so maybe there’s hopefully eventually there’s something for everyone, right? Right now there’s some things. But if we look at that essential guide
Jason (1:20:43)
yeah, b maybe each product would in theory
Colby (1:20:46)
skills course, like to your question, then you know it’s not for everyone. this is for people that
that take the profession seriously and, you know, they want to be a trip leader or expedition leader, you know, and and really be in charge of like bigger, bigger trips, you know, maybe groups of people, you know, fifteen, twenty group you know, people in their group in the wilderness. Maybe you have other guides working under you or trip operators, right? And and you’re really like leading and managing
two different things, right? This whole
Jason (1:21:15)
Mm-hmm.
Colby (1:21:15)
trip. And it’s for that. If you’re very happy, you know, running, you know, running day trips and being an assistant guide on the river, you know, whatever it is, you don’t need this, right? You have someone else that’s gonna handle all the leadership stuff and is gonna help direct, you know, what’s happening on the trip for you and the guests, and that’s fine. But if you’re looking for career progression and bigger trips, better roles, better pay, this is for you.
Jason (1:21:39)
That sounds pretty damn
convincing. I know you weren’t prepared for that question, but you answered it really, really well.
Colby (1:21:44)
Okay.
Jason (1:21:45)
We might you might want to save this clip and use it. But anyway, Colby, we’ve discussed a bunch of things. I also want to be respectful of your time. And there’s fifteen million probably questions I could answer you. Fascinating conversation, but I’m curious at this point, what do you wish I would have asked you or what do you feel like I forgot to ask you that you want to make sure we cover before we wrap up?
Colby (1:22:04)
Cheers, Jason. No, I I I think you have asked some wonderful questions. I’ve really appreciated the conversation. You know, if I I if I were to just to kind of throw one last statement out there to maybe wrap things up for us, as it has kind of been brewing in my head as we’ve moved forward here, right? But you know, the adventure travel industry has changed a lot since it started in the late 60s. In my 20 plus years, I’ve seen it change a lot. expectations of of the, you know.
guest expectations of their guides have been changing very rapidly. And, you know, it it’s almost this like Darwinism survival of the fittest thing where this company has that wow factor and now this company has this great interpretation program and like everybody’s kind of coming and coming. And the guests that are traveling with guides, they see this from place to place. And so our traditional training of permits and where to find stuff in the gear garage and how to read the map to get from point A to point B, you know,
That only covers part of the job these days. And guides need better access to professional development. Their operators benefit from this. And I believe the operators should be helping guides find access to all of this training. It’s in everyone’s best interest. And ultimately it ends up being, you know, trip of a lifetime experiences for those guests. so yeah, better guides create better travel. And that’s that’s what I’m all about.
Jason (1:23:24)
I don’t think I can add anything to that other than I hear you because at some point in the past somebody’s like, I want to get up into this mountain range. Let’s just I I’m familiar I grew up in Wyoming, so my family was into elk hunting. I want to get up into this range to go find an elk. So they’d just hire somebody that knew how to get up into that range and knew where the elk were. And things have changed a lot since then. Now it’s, you know, guides are professionals. Like my grandfather
guided, but he was never a professional guide. He was just the guy that knew how to get up into the mountain and find the elk. so people I think expect a professional now. They expect somebody that’s not just somebody with a Jeep and and ke keys to the gate to get into the Forest Service or whatever.
Colby (1:24:08)
Yeah. Cont contemporary
professionalism looks a lot different than it did in the past. That’s it. That’s it.
Jason (1:24:13)
Yes, it does. And anybody
that’s been around for a while like I have has seen that. You’ve seen some of it, but I’ve seen a little bit more than you have. I got a little bit more gray hair. You don’t have any gray hair. So Colby, fascinating conversation. Thank you so much. I learned a lot. I knew it was gonna I knew it was gonna be a lot of fun and it was. So thank you so much. Let’s do it again sometime soon. And by the way, of course, sometimes I forget to mention this because I think it’s just obvious, but we’re gonna have a link to Colby’s.
you know, website for Waypoint Gate Academy down in the show notes. So make sure to go check that out. I think this is a fascinating conversation for our audience because I know we have people listening to this that are guides, wanna be guides, tour operators that employ guides. There’s probably ninety eight percent of people listen to the show, should have a reason to click on your website. So I would encourage people to do that. And when you reach out or sign up for something, just mention that you heard him on Jason’s show and he’ll tell me and that makes me feel like we’re changing the world. So
Colby, thank you so much. I appreciate you. A lot of fun. All right. Talk
Colby (1:25:08)
Cheers, Jason. Thank you very much for having me.
Jason (1:25:10)
to you soon. All right. Bye bye.
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