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Episode #196: Elinor Fish

Tourism Business Consultant

Open Air Consulting

Episode #196: Elinor Fish
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Guest Bio

Elinor Fish is a Tourism Business Consultant and founder of Open Air Consulting. With over 14 years of experience building and leading an international travel company, Elinor has firsthand insight into the challenges of growing a tourism business and preparing it for sale. After successfully scaling her own company and navigating the complexities of a business exit, she now helps travel industry owners understand the true value of their companies and guides them through the process of scaling, structuring, and ultimately selling their businesses on their own terms.

Show Summary

In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Elinor Fish about her journey from founding and operating a women-only travel company to becoming a trusted consultant in tourism business sales and growth. Elinor shares her experience of building her company from a solo endeavor into an international operation with a dedicated team and explains how the pandemic and post-Covid travel surge impacted her business and contributed to her decision to sell.

Elinor dives into the importance of preparing a business for sale well in advance, focusing on creating systems that allow the company to operate independently of the owner. She discusses the due diligence process, the role of business brokers, and how early planning can greatly improve outcomes for sellers. Additionally, she emphasizes that the steps taken to ready a business for sale can also free entrepreneurs to enjoy their businesses more and avoid burnout.

Throughout the conversation, Elinor offers practical advice on managing employee concerns during ownership transitions, capturing meaningful customer feedback, and aligning business sales with personal life goals. Her insights extend beyond selling to building a sustainable, valuable asset that supports both business success and personal well-being.

Key Takeaways

  • ✓ Preparing a travel business for sale is a multi-year process that involves building strong systems and documenting key operations to reduce owner dependency.
  • ✓ Engaging with a consultant early allows business owners to understand current value and identify steps to increase it, rather than waiting until the sale is urgent.
  • ✓ Due diligence can be an invasive and challenging phase; preparation and having a trusted advisor help ease this process and improve deal outcomes.
  • ✓ Business brokers typically enter the picture when a sale is imminent, while consultants work with owners to grow and position their businesses years before selling.
  • ✓ Employee retention and clear communication about leadership changes are critical factors that influence buyer confidence and deal success.
  • ✓ Collecting and analyzing customer feedback through simple tools like Net Promoter Score surveys helps improve service and demonstrates business health to potential buyers.
  • ✓ Intellectual property in service-based tourism businesses often resides in the owner’s knowledge; transferring this knowledge into documented systems is essential for sale readiness.
  • ✓ Selling a business often involves emotional and identity shifts; planning for personal goals post-sale is as important as financial considerations.
  • ✓ The same strategies that prepare a business for sale also help owners reclaim freedom and reduce burnout by creating an operation that can run without constant owner involvement.
  • ✓ Starting small and taking steady steps, like booking a venue or promoting the first trip, can build momentum toward creating a successful travel business.

What You’ll Find on Open Air Consulting

  • ✓ Expert guidance on understanding and increasing the value of travel and tourism businesses.
  • ✓ Strategic planning support for scaling operations and building effective teams.
  • ✓ Preparation services to ready a business for sale, improving readiness for due diligence and buyer inquiries.
  • ✓ Advice on managing employee transitions and preserving company culture during ownership changes.
  • ✓ Tools and frameworks to collect meaningful customer feedback that informs business improvements.
  • ✓ Personalized consultations to align business sale timing and structure with owners’ personal and financial goals.

Learn more about Open Air Consulting and connect with Elinor at:

https://www.openairconsulting.com

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Podcast Transcript

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Jason (00:01.228)
Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the Adventure Traveler. Super excited to have each and every one of you back today. And I’m also very excited. I’ve got a fascinating guest that, in some ways, a lot of our listeners are gonna be familiar with what she’s done, but she’s she’s doing something a little different that’s very interesting to, I think, a lot of people listening. So, without further ado, we’ve got Elinor Fish here. She is a business consultant in the tourism in the tourism space.

And she owns Open Air Consulting. Elinor, welcome to the show.

Elinor Fish (00:35.736)
Thanks, Jason. I’m excited to be here.

Jason (00:38.04)
It’s gonna be a lot of fun. We spoke actually I guess it was just a week ago and I had so many questions for you and I and I told you on that call, I said don’t I don’t want to ask you too many things because I’ve got all these things in my head and I wanna wait until we come back and record because I like it to be spontaneous and and I I think I think most of our listeners kind of figure that out already. But Elinor, so now I get to ask all these questions. We’re gonna start with what the heck

Not how you got there, because we’re gonna get into how you got to the the s the point of having open air consulting, but just real quick, kind of the 60-90 second elevator pitch. What is open air consulting? What it who do you help and what do you do?

Elinor Fish (01:19.0)
Yeah, I work in the travel industry helping travel industry business owners understand the value of their company in case maybe they want to sell it someday, or they just really want to, you know, increase the value of their company, maybe because they want to take a investment in the future, or they’re just wondering how do I scale up and actually, you know, they might

company bigger, more valuable and you know, build a team and, you know, kind of just evolve my business from where it is today.

Jason (01:56.387)
Very cool. And I know there’s companies out there that you’d probably call business brokers, we’ll probably talk about that type of thing. that maybe do a pretty good job of coming in and helping you figure out what it’s worth and figure out how to sell it. But my interpretation of what you’re doing different even than in that space is really helping people kind of plan for

succession plan. It’s not succession plan. Well maybe it is. I don’t know what it’s called. But you’re helping them actually grow the business and get it ready even if it’s even if they don’t want to do anything for three to five years. You can help them get ready instead of just show up when they say, okay, I’m ready to sell, what do I do? Is that is that right?

Elinor Fish (02:38.348)
Yeah, absolutely. you know, business brokers you wanna engage with kind of in that when you’re getting close to that time that you’re ready to sell, really, because they’re gonna

look at how to take the business that you have currently in that moment and take it to market. And so they’re gonna be looking at what the business is worth today and where the value is and and who the potential buyers could be. Whereas I like engaging with business owners years before they get to that point because at this point we have time to not only understand what the business could be worth today, but how can we make it even more valuable bef long before you

go to put it up for sale. because a lot of times

there’s work to be done there. You know, for me it was a two year process getting my travel company ready to sell before I actually close the deal. And that was, you know, a pretty short timeline in which to take all the steps and really do the work that I needed to do to have a company that that that could be sold. You know, and and I I that’s why I like having these conversations as early as possible with business owners because sometimes it can be really a tough

Jason (03:22.136)
Mm-hmm.

Elinor Fish (03:49.865)
place to be in if you are maybe in like a bit of a urgent situation where you’re like, I need to sell my company now, but then you go and have that meeting with a business broker and maybe they say, Well, you know, this business may not be worth as much as you think it is, or it’s not really ready to sell, but then there’s no time to do anything about it. So I really like having those conversations much earlier, years before you think about selling your company, like let’s just understand what’s working and what

What could work better to really make the business more of an asset rather than just a really big job that you’ve created for yourself?

Jason (04:27.48)
Which a lot of people probably feel like they’ve just created a big job. And we’re gonna g get further into that. But for do I you know, as I was listening to you, I was kind of coming up with the analogy of like a house, because I worked in real estate. And yeah, is it better to have a realtor or somebody that’s gonna help you sell your house come in and look at it and maybe give you some pointers on do this and do that, but that’s all like just a cosmetic stuff.

That’s just like, you know, yeah, you should go ahead and replace the countertops in the kitchen or whatever, or you should throw some new paint on the wall, or maybe you shouldn’t, I don’t know. But those are all things that are just visual. It’s just like, how do we make it look better? But when we’re talking about businesses, it’s not the logo, it’s not necessarily the aesthetics of the website. That might be part of it, but it’s also the books. You know, somebody that’s coming in to buy a company is gonna want to see the books and figure out.

Elinor Fish (05:14.603)
Maybe

Jason (05:25.85)
you know, did you keep records? Do you have a viable email list of past clients and contacts and all this stuff that you probably know way more than I do about it? so it it seems like it is much more valuable to come in much, much earlier and

Elinor Fish (05:26.126)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (05:41.817)
I’m sure you kinda give them some ideas of what to do, but are you able to kind of will you work with them over the course of a few years? Is that the idea? Or you just come in one time deal, here’s here’s some tweaks and things you can do and then let me know when you’re ready to sell it, or what does that look like?

Elinor Fish (05:42.658)
Yeah.

Elinor Fish (05:59.233)
Yeah, well ideally it there there’s a kind of an ongoing relationship that that develops because what really helps for a business owner to see is start to look at the business from the perspective of the way a buyer would potentially see it. And your your real estate analysis is actually really accurate because

You know, when you’re looking at buying a house, you go and see the property, you visually inspect the property, and so you get a real good sense of what needs fixing in the house and maybe you know what looks good, what is superficially patched together and what is really solid underneath underneath the surface of things. And so, you know, when you’re selling a business, there’s this whole process that buyers and sellers go through called due diligence. And honestly

Jason (06:34.434)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Elinor Fish (06:47.824)
Like I’ve been through it a couple times now. It can be quite painful because in a business, it the business becomes so personal, you know, to the owner. Like it’s such a something that you created, it’s your baby, you know every little, you know, every little piece and part of how that business works. And then when you have someone come in from the outside and they start poking around and asking questions and wanting to see all your stuff, and if you’re not prepared to really show them that.

Jason (06:56.812)
Yes, yeah, yeah.

Elinor Fish (07:17.744)
First of all, it feels very invasive, you know, just because you’ve never had to share that much of your business with someone before. And sometimes the questions that you know buyers ask can be very difficult if you’re not quite ready to answer those questions. But the whole point of due diligence is because the buyer wants to understand all those layers of the business, because unlike a real estate deal, you can’t visually see it.

Jason (07:21.57)
Yeah.

Elinor Fish (07:47.627)
Me to kind of go in and s and have those conversations and be shown all the supporting documentation potentially going back years. And this is where a lot of this is why a lot of deals don’t actually close, you know, because one either buyers are like, you know, I don’t have the data that you’re asking me for, so I can’t I can’t support the asking price that I I’m asking for this business, or maybe they just

fe don’t feel comfortable, they don’t feel ready to answer some of these tougher questions about the decisions, the strategic decisions that were made in the business. And so, you know

What I do as a business advisor is we really have those tough conversations because I come from the outside and I look at it from that buyer’s perspective and I say, well, here’s the things that a buyer’s gonna wanna know. Like why do the financials show this, but you say that? These things don’t align, so we need to have some answers for that. You know, and so that that that’s definitely a big, a big part of it.

Jason (08:47.404)
Yeah.

Jason (08:54.136)
And I also suspect it’s probably a little less stressful to have someone like you come in and pardon me go through that with them as opposed to a buyer that has put in some sort of offer that’s contingent on the due diligence process. There’s a lot of pressure when those questions are being asked then. When it’s someone like you that they’ve hired to come in and help them.

it it’s like practice like if you’re gonna go to court you gotta get on the stand. It’s like you wanna practice with somebody that is on your side first before y y they just throw you on the stand, I guess.

Elinor Fish (09:29.878)
Yeah, exactly. Because I’m on I’m on the business owner’s side. I want them to get that best possible outcome. And yeah, it takes preparation and planning to get there. so so it can definitely make when you get to that point of you when you do go to market and you whether you work with a broker or not, but you’re ready to list the business, you know it’s coming, you’ve already got your documentation all in order, you’ve already got your financial story all prepared and ready to go.

And you can go into those conversations feeling so prepared because you know, with business transactions, like there’s so many different ways to structure them, there’s so many different ways the process can go. And it just it’s I think it would be really hard to do if you went into it without kind of having that that prep work done and and just educating yourself about not only

how to close a business deal, but to get really clear on like what you as the seller really want to get out of it. You know, because one of the things I’m so passionate about is having conversations with business owners about what their goals are after selling. What what do they want to get from the this transaction b because it should align with whatever it is they want to do after selling, whether it’s retiring, whether it’s

It’s maybe starting a new venture, maybe it’s making some other kind of investment, or there’s some other thing, but we might as well come up with a plan that meets not just the needs of your your business, but you know, your personal financial needs as well.

Because, you know, building a business takes a lot a lot of time and energy. And there’s usually a lot of sacrifices that business owners make along the way. And I just want them to make sure that they feel those sacrifices made over the years was worth it and actually pays off at the end of the day.

Jason (11:08.044)
Right.

Jason (11:27.404)
Right, ’cause I I’m imagining you mentioned the different way you structure deals and if your plan is to go out and buy another business, but then you structure a deal in a way that the person’s gonna be making payments over the next twenty years, you might not have the cash to go buy the other business and then when you go to the other business and they say, Well, I’ll pay you over you know

over the years because I’ve got this other person paying me over the years, that put that makes it very risky for some people. so is that that’s kinda what you’re talking about when you’re talking about figuring out what you wanna do, right? Yeah.

Elinor Fish (11:59.907)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that kind of a thing and and just the the timing of it, you know, because if you if you if you’re like, well I want to sell in maybe three years or maybe ten years, well the outcome of those two scenarios is completely different. You know, it’ll have a very different impact on your life.

and the value of the business could be drastically different in those two scenarios. So yeah, so it’s it’s worth kind of considering all of those things because most of the times business owners don’t really know when they they want to sell, but they want to start thinking about the options and know that they have options. And so the other thing I love about the work I do is it just it gives business owners more of that freedom back, that freedom to choose when to sell their business.

and and not being forced into selling it out of desperation or urgency because you know like life happens right and and sometimes a lot of small business owners are kind of forced into a situation where they have to think about selling before they thought they would like maybe there’s you know an illness that they have to attend to or aging parents they need to take care of or you know kids that are

getting older and about to leave home and they you know the owner wants to ha suddenly have more time for family or just there’s a a shift in priorities and that’s totally normal, right? Like we we go through different phases of life. Yeah.

Jason (13:33.549)
Yeah, yeah. And I suspect yeah. And I suspect a lot of these scenarios, I mean, these are mostly I’m gonna say small business entrepreneurs working in the tourism space. And I’m sure there’s I I know there are scenarios where somebody’s like, yeah, my son is he’s really involved, he wants to take over the business and and that’s all fine until boom the son or the daughter no longer wants to do that.

You know, and and they go a different direction and then mom and dad are like, What the heck? We you know, we were planning to to move to Tahiti or something and now we can’t because we’re we’re in this tough spot ’cause our kid’s not gonna take over the business. I you I heard you say

When they get ready to sell, whether they want to work with a broker or not, that’s kind of what I heard. So I’m curious, are you able to act as a broker or is that a different role? and do you facilitate that? So what is what does the word broker mean when you said that?

Elinor Fish (14:40.376)
Yeah, well, a business broker kind of functions the way like a a real estate broker might. And actually in the state of Colorado, you need to have a real estate license to be a business broker. and I don’t currently do that role, but what I do is when I’m working with clients, maybe over a long period of time, we’ve been preparing the business to sell, I can then refer that client to a business broker who would actually

work on that final stage of actually putting together the marketing package, posting the the business for sale in some marketplaces, and then negotiating the terms of the transaction and representing the seller in that transaction. So I don’t do that work, but I do collaborate and refer to business brokers when a business owner is ready to do that. And so that that’s

Jason (15:27.808)
And that right.

Jason (15:36.652)
And that makes sense.

Elinor Fish (15:38.423)
Yeah, exactly. And you know, it it definitely makes sense for businesses of a certain size, for real micro businesses.

You know, they may not want to to do that, but they should have a legal advisor absolutely look over at least the terms of the purchase agreement that that’s being presented to them, at the very least, if they don’t work with a broker. But yeah, I mean brokers do cost money too. They take a chunk of the transaction and they they earn it though. so there’s pros and cons to that. But that’s another area in which I I

just have those conversations with my clients to help them decide what it could look like, what their choices are and what’s the best route for them. Yeah.

Jason (16:20.866)
And it makes makes total sense to me. I’ll use kind of the analogy of of real estate homes and stuff. Is a real estate agent is working on a commission. A real estate agent doesn’t really want to talk to you in depth for three years before you finally decide to to list it. You’re not gonna get much out of them. They might be nice enough to come over and and tell you, okay, yeah, your carpet looks fine and you put

clean up your backyard at some point in the next few years, but they’re not gonna continuously walk through all this stuff because you may may or may not ever sell. So it wouldn’t make sense. So I assume the same thing with a business broker is a business broker’s probably, I don’t know, unless he’s able to really he or she’s really able to play the really long game, is gonna be able to sit down and and help you figure out how to grow your business and and get it ready to sell in you know three, five, ten years.

But you can do that, right? So that’s that that makes, yeah, that’s that’s pretty cool. Do when it comes to the sale, because I I understand you’re not the broker, you’re not necessarily handling the transaction, but I’m just curious if it’s similar to with homes, ideally the buyer and the seller don’t actually meet each other.

Because of emotional stuff. Because buyers and sellers have a tendency to piss each other off. You know, so the buyer comes in and says, I’m not gonna buy this this paint in this one bedroom is horrendous. You guys need to change that before I’ll close the deal. And the the seller is like

My daughter wanted that color. That’s her favorite color. And well, screw you, if you d i if you don’t like it, go find a different house. so where I’m going with all that, because we started earlier you mentioned that when when a buyer comes in and starts questioning all these things, it can feel very invasive. So does a good broker keep

Jason (18:27.062)
run interference and stay in the middle of that. Do they let the buyers and sellers talk or is it in business is a little different where they need to talk?

Elinor Fish (18:36.002)
They definitely have to

sort of help manage that interaction a little bit because yeah, it it when there’s a lot of money at stake on both sides and both both sides are feeling a certain amount of pressure and and they’re managing their own personal risk in this transaction, it it does create potentially a stressful situation. But from my experience there’s the there is definitely more interaction directly between the buyers and the sellers in this industry.

And you know, that’s one of the things I love about the travel industry is that it is it’s it’s it’s experiential, it’s about relationships, it’s about people. So unlike a real estate transaction where you’re just buying a physical thing, you know, when you’re buying a business.

Jason (19:23.266)
Mm-hmm.

Elinor Fish (19:26.028)
Most often I think the buyer’s gonna want to actually come on site. Like maybe you’re an outfitter, for example. They’re gonna want to come and and go on some of the the the activities and actually see how the business operates, see it from the customer’s perspective for themselves. So they’ll they’ll go on site and they’ll do the activities and see how the team is operating and and that sort of thing. Or maybe they’ll come to your offices and and get a sense.

Jason (19:38.242)
Yeah.

Elinor Fish (19:55.905)
sense of the atmosphere and the people and the you know how how the place runs, that sort of thing. Sometimes that’s done in an

incognito capacity where the employees are not really let in on what’s going on. so that’s pretty common where only the owner knows who this person is. but they they try to you know the this person will kind of come in in sort of an undercover capacity so as not to let on that they’re actually looking at buying the business, but they are there to want to try to experience it. and yeah and that’s why like

Jason (20:07.052)
That’s I was wondering, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Elinor Fish (20:35.276)
preparing for the sale before you get to that due diligence phase where it is a lot of exchanging documents. That’s where you know the business broker will will try to kind of manage things and they’ll manage the flow of of documentation. They’ll set up what’s commonly called like a data room where you’re uploading documents and then the the buyer is going and retrieving them to examine. so there’s not a lot of

Jason (21:00.472)
Mm-hmm.

Elinor Fish (21:03.682)
you know, emailing directly between the buyer and and the the seller. but also too, there’s really important conversations that need to take place. and you know the the the buyer’s gonna want to understand why things were set up the way they were to really understand what is drive what are the biggest value drivers in this business. why why is it set up the way it is? how crucial is this

you know, this system to creating the economic output that the business creates. because they’re trying to gauge in their minds really, is this business worth what the seller is asking me for? And can I run this business without them? So they’re trying to imagine how the operation will work or won’t work if when the owner, the seller, is absent. And

Jason (21:48.61)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (22:02.358)
Right. Which is a little different than like with a house because

You know what? If if the s seller forgot to tell me where the thermostat is we’ll figure it out. You know, like any anybody can you know, you’ve got your inspector comes through and checks things out just to make sure there’s you know, whatever. But once the seller’s gone, whatever comes up, you can’t find the garage door opener. You can hire somebody to come in and g you know, you can get a garage door opener. Pretty much everything with a house you can get somebody else to step in and

Elinor Fish (22:15.48)
Yeah.

Elinor Fish (22:33.475)
Yeah.

Jason (22:36.676)
that knows what they’re doing. But yeah, in a small business, tour operation business, yeah, that’s like if you start the business and all of a sudden can’t figure out how to get into the database to get the c the client files.

Elinor Fish (22:50.946)
Hey, well and this is where it gets kind of interesting, especially in a service based business. Like so for s service based in businesses that maybe don’t have a lot of physical assets, like a a travel agency or a tour operator, they’re mostly

Their biggest value is in their IP, in their their they’ve got their customer base, they have their their trips, and a lot of fulfillment of those trips is subcontracted to the suppliers in the country. So if a tour operator is selling their business, what are they selling? Well they’re selling their intellectual property or their you know their ways of doing things and

How you put value on that can be very subjective. And so the owner might think, look, I’ve got a great operation here. It all lives in my head. Only I know what our secret sauce is. Well, that is of zero value to a buyer. Like it doesn’t matter that you generate millions of dollars a year if that IP only exists in your mind, or you know, 80% of it is in your mind. And but

Jason (23:44.343)
Yeah.

Elinor Fish (23:57.889)
And you need to tell everyone else how to make it operate on the ground, right? And so that’s that’s often where

Jason (24:03.191)
Yeah, yeah.

Elinor Fish (24:06.582)
a I think a lot of business owners kind of come to the realization like, my gosh, if I really want to sell this someday, it can’t just live in my head. It can’t depend on me to operate. And so once we start to really like uncover the layers of what it is they have built out in their business and what is retained within them, then it really starts to become clear what the work will look like. You know, and that’s why I end up working with people over longer periods of time because you can’t change

Jason (24:27.0)
Yeah.

Elinor Fish (24:36.526)
this stuff overnight. But there is a pathway that we can take to to change that you know that structure and make it something that someone else can actually acquire and then operate. So

Jason (24:51.86)
I’m sure and we’re gonna get into your background and and I know that you were aware of this as well, but working in the tourism space, probably a lot of industries, but I’ve worked in the tourism space most of my life. And I’ve worked for people and I’ve worked in organizations where it’s like you have a question and

answer to the question is you gotta ask so and so and it’s usually the owner of the company and you’re like so you go to the owner and say hey you know I’m trying to get in touch with this operator in Colombia and he’s not getting back to me to confirm this this transfer. I’m just thinking of a scenario. He’s not getting back to me to transfer and the owner says well yeah he responds best by WhatsApp so he’s never gonna he’s never gonna respond by email so you gotta you gotta reach out to

By WhatsApp. And and that’s just an example of this, you know, I think you call it IP intellectual property. It’s all in their head. And if I if I were to come in and take over that business and he were to disappear, I’d be sitting there waiting for emails to come back from this driver in Columbia that’s never gonna respond by email. It’s just an example. And I’m sure anybody that’s listening to this that’s ever worked in a tour operation business knows that there’s a lot of, go ask so and so. But what happens if so and so’s not around? Yeah.

Elinor Fish (25:47.98)
Mm-hmm.

Elinor Fish (26:09.14)
Exactly. Exactly.

Jason (26:10.21)
That’s a that’s a that’s a tough deal. boy, it it’s it’s very fascinating. We’re not gonna get too into the weeds about you know strategies and and accounting and finance and all that stuff. That’s that’s a great conversation for you to have with somebody after this show. And they listen to this and they click on the link. If that’s the conversation they want to have, I trust you’ll have that with them. And

Yeah, we’re gonna now we’re gonna dig back into the the past, figure out how you got from where you were to where you are. I like to go pretty young because I like to kind of hear how people even get into tourism. I don’t know how how far back once I asked somebody is like how far back should we go? And they said, Well, I was born on December sixteenth, you know, in such and such a place. We don’t need to go that far back. But I’d love to kinda hear about your upbringing, your childhood and figure out what the connections are that led you here. So how far back should we go?

Elinor Fish (27:07.0)
Yeah, well, I really think that my love for travel was sparked when I was a teenager.

I was growing up in British Columbia and I had an opportunity to do a student exchange through the the Rotary Club. and so at 17 I went off to France for a year and lived in France and you know lived with host families and got to travel around and meet other students and it like was a life-changing experience. I absolutely loved it. And so that’s when I definitely discovered that

Jason (27:21.202)
cool.

Jason (27:27.064)
Nice.

Elinor Fish (27:42.444)
you know, this whole idea of just traveling and living in different countries is definitely a part of my life.

Jason (27:48.665)
Do you remember, do you remember the moment that you f I either found out that this rotary program existed or that you went through the process of applying for it? Or do you like so what was going on maybe a year or two before that? Were you already thought you wanted to go somewhere, or was this rotary thing just kind of accidentally?

Elinor Fish (28:09.71)
I no idea. Yeah, I I I hadn’t really thought about it.

You know, but lived in a really small town up in the mountains of of the Canadian Rockies and so you know had you know pretty small life, but it was all good. But my father was involved with the Rotary Club and so he knew about the the student exchange program and I didn’t know anything about it, but my parents really encouraged me to check it out. And they said if you were to apply to do this student exchange program in any of these

countries that were listed, which one would you pick? And something in me said France. And sure enough, like I just fell in love with everything French. I love the language, the food, the culture, the history. You know, when I lived there getting to travel around and visit like the Loire Valley and the castles and just see the history living in the landscape.

Jason (29:09.292)
Yeah, but what what but what was it but at the time when you saw France on the list, like had you thought about France before? Were you taking French classes? Were you was it on your radar? yeah, yeah, you probably do. Uh-huh, okay.

Elinor Fish (29:19.734)
Well so as a Canadian yeah, as a Canadian I was learning French. So I ha I felt like I had

basic understanding of French, you know, because it’s a mandatory part of the Canadian school curriculum. But I wasn’t exactly conversational. I wasn’t immersed in the French language. So to get to go to France and actually be immersed in another language and start to become conversational, that that was just to me, that was a really cool process. So it was awesome.

Jason (29:34.549)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (29:52.749)
So tell me about your parents because what I heard you say was your dad basically came home and said, hey, there’s this thing. I’m just curious, if you were to pick, if you were to participate in this, where would you go? And you said, France, and you said that they were very supportive. There are some parents in the world that would never put present that to their teenage daughter, even if they knew about it, and even if they had the ability to make it happen, would just conveniently not mention that.

There’s others that are like, if you don’t shape up, we’re gonna send you off to boarding school somewhere. Maybe they won’t maybe they want you to go somewhere, I don’t know. But looking back, were your parents, had they traveled before? Was that something that was important to them? What tell me a little bit about your parents so I can understand why they took that route.

Elinor Fish (30:28.163)
Yeah.

Elinor Fish (30:44.142)
Gosh, yeah. Well my my parents grew up in like eastern Canada and I’d say more my mom is much more of a a world traveler, you know. She grew up kind of in the

the hippie 60s and you know did like the backpacking around Europe thing and so she was really it was you know easy for her to to see me doing that too and so she was super supportive and I think my dad was comfortable with it because he was already familiar with the Rotary Club program and how it worked and also too like trusted how the the host families are also a part of the Rotary Club. So it felt like a very

Jason (31:04.598)
okay.

Elinor Fish (31:29.424)
Safe option for someone like me to to go live in a foreign country. It’s not like it was just being shipped off into the unknown. so it to me it felt like a very a very safe container in which to have those first experiences traveling in a foreign country without my parents and meeting new people and being in a foreign language. So

Jason (31:37.762)
Yeah.

Jason (31:47.97)
So cool.

Jason (31:53.996)
Had you had you traveled outside of British Columbia up until that point?

Elinor Fish (31:58.603)
Not much, you know, not not a whole lot. So yeah, it was a big step.

Jason (32:03.948)
What what other kinds of things were you interested? Like if I d if I had a time machine and met you when you were fifteen, fourteen or fifteen and I said, Elinor, what do you want to do when you grow up? Do you do you recall what you would have said?

Elinor Fish (32:20.122)
No, but I probably would have said that I wanted to work with horses because when I was a teenager, that’s all I wanted to do. I as a teenager I had had a horse and I competed in our local our local horse shows and was just going around to different horse shows and doing like show jumping and dressage and trail riding and stuff like that. So that was kind of all I cared about at that time.

Jason (32:23.441)
that’s popular.

Jason (32:43.848)
Okay. I I’ve there’s a a few teenage a few women that when they were teenagers were really into horses, so I I get that. And especially in kind of in that part of the world I think. I grew up in the Rockies as well and a little little south of where you were, but did

Elinor Fish (32:52.406)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason (33:03.7)
from the moment your dad first brought this up or your parents first brought this up and said, hey, this there’s this program, here’s a list of countries and you’re like, man, France would be great. So from that moment until you actually got on the plane to go, how much time do you remember? Was that a a short, quick time or did you have a year to plan or what did what did that look like?

Elinor Fish (33:23.744)
You know, I haven’t thought about this in a long time. That’s a I it’s in Yeah. when I look back now, it seemed like it was fairly short period of time. It was probably a few months, you know. so not a lot of planning. I d I didn’t know anything about the family I was going to go live with. and I just thought, you know, we’ll just see what this is all about, you know. It was

Jason (33:26.616)
Yeah. Sorry, I I I tend to ask those kinds of questions to people. Test your memory.

Elinor Fish (33:53.463)
It’s really cool to think back now just how I could just

you know, trust the process and just be like, you know, I don’t know anything about this, but I’m just going to go with it and see what happens. You know, and now as a as an adult, at this phase of life, it’s like, my gosh, I would have done so much like planning and thinking ahead and wanting to work out all the potential scenarios and make sure that I’ve thought everything through. But you know, that’s the that’s the luxury, right, of youth and and that you you kind of just

don’t worry about all the what ifs sometimes and you just go for it and just be like, well, hey, let’s go see how this is gonna work out.

Jason (34:35.884)
You can you can see that kind of in just the way the backpacker, the gap year, the thing that’s it’s the the teenager that before they go to college or on a summer be you know, summer break in school, they just like go do stuff, right? They just go do it. And

Elinor Fish (34:50.828)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason (34:53.448)
When you when you’re talking to maybe a potential new client or something that’s fifty and they wanna know who’s picking me up at the airport, what’s their license plate number, how am I gonna communicate with them? Is i is the room does the room have, you know, different types of it’s like we’re so different. Some of us, I mean it I travel full time, I’m not like that, but but I get it, yeah.

Elinor Fish (35:03.007)
Yeah.

Elinor Fish (35:14.442)
It’s yeah, no, it’s so

No, but it’s true. Like when I I you know, I had a a travel company for fourteen years and yeah, I mean I saw so much of that in in that I n we specialize in just women only group travel and yes

So a lot of the women that came on our trips had not traveled outside the country before or hadn’t traveled alone before. And yes, that they they really wanted that reassurance of knowing every little detail of how it was all going to work. And I I understand that need for security, especially in this crazy world where we hear about all the

you know, potential threats or dangers and and yes you need to be smart and and careful, but the price we pay for that too is just kind of this loss of like spontaneity or like not really knowing what we’re gonna do when we get to a place. Like I remember right after college, I didn’t know w where I was gonna start my career. So I like booked a trip to Maui. I just thought, I don’t know what I’m gonna do in Maui, but just I think I need to go there. And so I just like booked a flight and like

Jason (36:22.06)
Yeah.

Elinor Fish (36:24.629)
stayed in hostels on Maui for a few weeks just to kind of like figure out what I was gonna do next and I had like no plan. I knew nothing about what I was gonna do. It s sounded great. So that’s what I did.

Jason (36:36.396)
Well, one thing I’ve noticed having these conversations, we’ve got almost I’ve had a couple hundred conversations now just as part of this this you know, platform, the the podcast, but

If you ask people that travel that have a handful of experiences what their most memorable moments are, they’re almost always the ones that weren’t planned. Which is kind of ironic considering considering almost every time I’m having a conversation with somebody that worked in the industry and and made a living helping people make plans. But if you ask about their personal experiences, it’s that, you know, I’m going to France, I I know there’s a Rotary family there, but I don’t really know much about them.

Elinor Fish (36:58.604)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jason (37:18.916)
Or I think I’ll go to Maui. I don’t know why, but I think I’ll go. I still do that. I’ve got a little bit of ADHD, so I I have no problem moving forward without plans. But it’s but the most interesting experiences I’ve had are the ones that

Just really for example, just like I’m walking from my Airbnb to the grocery store, so that’s my plan. But then I see something or hear something down a street that I don’t kn I’ve never been down. I’m like, it looks like something interesting is down there. So I divert from my plan and walk down the street, and that’s where I see the cool stuff. You know, it’s almost never the grocery store that’s interesting. It’s the stuff that wasn’t on the agenda.

And it’s it sounds like you’ve had some of that experience as well. Elinor, I do want to ask you, do you remember the moment whether because when I asked you about travel getting inspired, or you brought up that it was this trip to France that really got you going and and hooked on it. But do you remember a moment either on that trip or after when you’re like, yeah, tourism?

I’m gonna work in the tourism business. I’m I wanna do this for a living. Do you remember that moment?

Elinor Fish (38:34.028)
Yeah, yeah, I think so. Cause you know, after college, like I said, I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do though. I got a degree in geography. So I think that was kind of a signal. but I still I’m like, what do you do with a geography degree? I didn’t really have a plan for that. Yeah. Okay.

Jason (38:43.34)
Okay, that yeah.

Jason (38:49.964)
Like geography what let’s pause here for a second.

What does what do people do? I’ve had a few guests that have mentioned geography. What do you do with a geography degree? What’s the traditional typical path with a geography degree? Did you ever figure that out? I mean, because I’m thinking maybe that’s a start to go in to get a master’s in political science or something.

Elinor Fish (38:57.302)
Easy.

Elinor Fish (39:05.474)
I don’t I don’t know how to know. I don’t know. But

Elinor Fish (39:15.212)
Yes, yeah, and I was interested in political science and so there’s a lot of like global economics involved and sociology, so th those were kind of interesting aspects of it. So it was about people and places and economies. so I found all those things very interesting, but still did not know what I was gonna do. So the next thing after that is I find myself living in in the Canadian Rockies on the Alberta side of the border.

So that’s where like Banff National Park is. And I got my first real career job after college was working for the Bamflick Louise Tourism Bureau. And that’s what like totally got me 100% hooked on working in tourism as an industry. I just absolutely fell in love with it because I had I kind of landed like the coolest entry-level job I think you could possibly get at the time, which was working for the Bamflick.

Louise Tourism Bureau in the PR and media department, and it was my job to organize fam trips for journalists and yeah, for like film crews, television crews, and print j journalists and photographers, and put together their itineraries to have them come and experience Banff and Lake Louise. And I got to spend tons of time with these folks and show them around and host them in dinners on amazing.

Jason (40:23.276)
Bam trips and press trips. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Elinor Fish (40:45.012)
It was awesome. It was so much fun. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I did that for about three or four years and and then I went to Australia for a year and worked still worked in media, but I was actually working for

Jason (40:47.682)
That is yeah, ’cause your your job is to find the fun stuff for for them to to go experience. Yeah, that’s very cool. How long did you do that job?

Elinor Fish (41:14.858)
A cruise magazine because you know the cruise industry is huge in Australia, and I was living in Sydney and

And so I did that for a year and then I came back to the Canadian Rockies. And that’s kind of when I I kind of started the consulting side of things, where I was just doing freelance marketing for the province of Alberta, as well as for Bamps like Louise Tourism and some other local organizations doing kind of PR and media related stuff, but still very much in the tourism industry.

Jason (41:50.233)
I don’t wanna skip anything big, but I’m curious how you took the leap from that into starting your own tourism business, not the consulting, the marketing stuff, but I mean you had a t a tour operation business. So what happened that kind of got you from doing the consulting, the stuff for BAMF Lake Louise and all that to the point where you actually launched your own business?

Elinor Fish (42:03.789)
Yeah.

Elinor Fish (42:15.146)
Yeah, well I’ll tell ya, I never would have predicted a path like this, but the way it worked out was from living in the Canadian Rockies, I got an offer to c actually work for a running magazine because I’m also really big ultra-marathon runner or was for a period of time. And I was freelance writing, writing articles for this running magazine, and then they offered me a position on staff.

But that meant moving to Colorado. So I was looking for a life change anyway. So I moved to Colorado, where I still am today, living in the Canadian Rockies, and was working for the Running Magazine. And one of the assignments that I was given, this was in 2007, I was given the assignment to go.

on a running tour with a running company in Torresel Pine National Park in in Chile. And I got to Tima. know I’m like, okay, I’ll take that assignment. I mean this was like the golden age of you know print media and travel media where

Jason (43:16.946)
Okay, yeah, I’ll go. I can do that.

Elinor Fish (43:27.168)
Journalists were paid to go on these kinds of trips, which I think it’s less common these days. But I was teamed up with some of the world’s

best outdoor you know ad active travel photographers, Dan and Shanine Patatucci. And you know, they’ve they shoot a ton of like running, climbing, all kinds of like outdoor sports photography for catalogs and magazines for decades. So I teamed up with them and we spent this like two weeks in Patagonia running around Torres del Pine and and I wrote this big article

About the trip for the magazine. But it was on that trip and having deep conversations with the other people that were in our group, which was, you know, people from all over the world. We were all traveling together and staying in these refugios as we ran day by day around Torres del Pine. and then shooting these photos and having deep conversations with Dan and Shanine Patatucci, who had just

created this incredible life where they traveled the world and did their photography. And to me, that was just mind-blowing. I’m like, I can’t believe that this is your job. Like you are out here doing all this incredible work. And I just realized how much I love this notion of combining running, which was my passion, and travel, which was my other passion. And so it planted the seed like

Jason (44:45.996)
Mm-hmm.

Elinor Fish (45:04.87)
I could create a running travel company too. And of course, you know, Dan Patatucci, he’s the kind of guy who’s just like, you’ve got to follow your dreams. If that’s what you want to do, you just gotta do it. Like, don’t waste time. Like this is this is what life is for. And and so to me, it just seemed like I don’t know how I’m gonna make this happen, but I think this is going to happen. And so

I’ll admit it was a couple more years later before I actually took the first step and created the first trip.

Jason (45:36.898)
Did you I I’m curious if you had other people in your life that were supportive. Obviously this couple was very encouraging, but as far as

job with the magazine? Like did you have the ability to say, hey, this is what I really want to do, were they supportive? Or your family back home? You know? Because sometimes people that go into tourism jobs, you were already working in tourism, but sometimes when people are like, well I want to quit my job as an accountant and go start a a running tourism business, some people might say, What are you crazy? So I’m just curious, what kind of responses were you getting from people around you?

Elinor Fish (46:00.447)
Yeah.

Elinor Fish (46:15.894)
Yeah. Well I was really lucky. I think that the the the the magazine was very supportive because I did start my business as a side hustle. You know, I I was just doing one or two trips a year and they were cool with me doing that. And I even got to mention my running trips, which were just like weekend long.

retreats, all centered around trail running and wellness. and I got to mention them in the magazine. And that kind of what got the whole thing kickstarted is I was able to really get a lot of attention and really start to build my you know my my my customer base pretty quickly because I had access to to that audience. And then also to have all these other connections in the travel industry and in travel media.

Jason (46:46.944)
That’s cool.

Mm-hmm.

Elinor Fish (47:09.088)
It really helped me get that early momentum. So I did have that support for the first couple of years. And also, too, you know, my husband was really supportive as well. And gratefully, a few years into it, once I said, you know, I think I’m gonna quit my full-time job and go just do this travel business, even though it’s not a full-time job yet. And I have no idea how I’m gonna make it one, but I I think I need to do this and

You know, I’m really grateful he was very supportive as I made that transition because yeah, it it you know, it took a little while to kind of build something that was just a part-time business into a full-time business.

Jason (47:50.049)
Do remember the first because there’s you’ve got a couple things. You mentioned you kind of started as I’m gonna say side hustle, whatever. as the side job while you’re working for the magazine, and then there was the moment, okay, I’m gonna quit the magazine and I’m gonna put all my time and effort into into the business. But I guess the question, was there a particular action you took that really you feel like, yep, that was the thing that

started it. Not just inspired you, but was there a so an example might be somebody listening to this might maybe they started their tour business by going online and buying a domain name. They’re like, I just gotta do something. I I don’t know what I’m gonna do, but I’m gonna go buy a domain name or I’m gonna design a logo or whatever before they’ve ever actually done anything else. So was there something like that for you?

Elinor Fish (48:38.302)
Yeah,

Elinor Fish (48:47.0)
I mean there w there was it was just a lot of like t always taking just the next step, you know, except

Jason (48:52.28)
Okay, what was the first step? What would you say the first step was?

Elinor Fish (48:55.736)
First step was I’m like, good question, what was it? It was probably booking the venue for the very first retreat. So I had to just like pick a place get some dates. So, you know, I did that and and and so that I knew w where it was gonna be, I knew when it was gonna be and worked out, you know

what we were gonna do while we were there, went and scouted out the trails, figured out what I was gonna charge and how I was gonna feed people. and yeah and then and then start to talk about it and promote it. But coming from this marketing background, promoting it was kind of the the funnest part for me. That was the easy part. yeah exactly and so once we really

Jason (49:26.337)
Uh-huh.

Jason (49:39.728)
I know how to do this. You probably probably even had some probably even had some friends in the business that maybe would wanna get involved and promote it a little bit. Journalists, writers, stuff like that. I’m curious. Yeah.

Elinor Fish (49:52.065)
I did, I did. Well and that that throughout the whole growth of the business. So over the course of fourteen years

I had a lot of press coverage and it’s because I knew how to do that. I had those connections and I knew how to make those pitches. I hosted writers on on our trips several times throughout the years and like what really helped with a huge step of growth was like about a decade in I hosted a writer from the Washington Post.

Jason (50:03.224)
Mm-hmm.

Elinor Fish (50:23.106)
And that turns out her article was syndicated in newspapers across the country. And I mean, we just the kind you know, our business really blew up after that. And that’s when I started like, I’m like, I need to hire, I need to build a team, and like this is really taking off. And and so at each, you know, period there there there was there would be another thing that would just help facilitate kind of that next level of growth that was just so

Jason (50:51.352)
Yeah.

Elinor Fish (50:52.88)
so exciting and such a thrilling ride. It’s crazy now when I look back at it.

Jason (50:56.128)
If I d I’m sure it is. That very f so the first retreat that you set up, you went out and got got everything set up. You just told us about all that. It was a success because you s kept doing it. Regardless of what happened, it was a success. So I’m I’m reluctant to ask you, was it successful? Yes it was. But was it successful in the way you’d hoped it would be at the time?

Elinor Fish (51:22.294)
think initially I I just wasn’t really sure what to expect. I didn’t have like specific goals or expectations. I just wanted to have enough people there to make it

fun and feel yeah, exactly. And and feel like, my gosh, like I I actually made money on this and I had more people than I was even aiming for. And and you know, it was like just testing a concept in my mind. And and it worked, you know, and so that’s one of the the really

Jason (51:32.118)
Not lose money.

Elinor Fish (51:54.999)
One of the early lessons that I learned that then became kind of a guiding principle throughout the evolution of the whole company from like a one-person operation to, you know, a big multi-million dollars a year, seven people on the team kind of operation, was that at that very first retreat, the reason I thought people were coming ended up not being the reason.

the people were coming because my initial concept was I just want to introduce more women to the sport of trail running and help them like learn the skill and just feel comfortable running on trails in the woods as opposed to on you know roads and stuff like that. and it made sense where I was coming from with the world of working for the running magazine and it was a very male dominated sport at the time. And so but once we got there.

And all the women were together, and we’re in this lodge in the in the Rocky Mountains, and we’re all just hanging out and talking together and like connecting. It made me realize that, like, okay, what really is bringing us together is this shared love of running. But it’s it just as women, we just really wanted to connect with other women who that we felt in alignment with, like we just understood each other, we understood why this is important to us and what running.

does for us mentally and physically and just enjoyed being out in nature and running on beautiful trails. And so the big takeaway from that was for me was always listen to to really what the customer is saying that they value about the experience that you create. And try not to be distracted by what I think it is I’m selling or the reasons why this offering is

what it is. But if I always listen to what the customer says that they care about and why they’re there and what brought them and focus messaging on that and always design the experience around what the customer says that they get out of it, then you you’ll always win. You’ll always have kind of that that right value proposition that makes it so much more easier to

Elinor Fish (54:11.988)
stand out in the marketplace or you know like design a trip that’s going to really appeal to the right market. so that

Jason (54:19.224)
What do you what do you think your superpower is as far as figuring that out so quickly? Even on this f it sounds like on the first retreat. What is what is your yeah, what is your superpower that was able to help you figure that out? Because there’s a lot of people out there that have been in business a long time that if you ask them what their customers want, they have no idea. So so

Elinor Fish (54:39.904)
Yeah. Well I think coming from the world of of like media in storytelling, I I got to see

like the best in the business, how they listen to people, and how they tell those their stories. And so I feel like I was exposed throughout my career to people who are really good at that. And it helped me learn just how important that is in business. How important it is in business to make sure that you’re really listening clearly and understanding the bigger story that they’re trying to tell you about

why this is important to them and and why they’re here and really what they want to get out of it. And so so I I think that really became my superpower. And throughout the whole business, I built it into the business model and it looked so different over the years. Like in the early years of my business, it was about me being there at the retreats, listening to what people were saying. But then later in the business, I’m not the one there interacting directly with the customers. So we had to create

communication systems that allowed our customers to give us feedback in a way that that we could actually receive and then use to either make our services better or to you know improve our customer onboarding process, improve our communication systems, adjust our marketing messages, like

to make sure that we we systematized that process as the business grew so that it it never got lost.

Jason (56:20.28)
You know.

Right. And I I remember a little while ago I said, well, we’re not gonna go into strategies and specifics and da da da da. But I’ll tell you what, here’s an opportunity that anybody listening to this like they’re gonna wish I would have asked. Can so because there are a lot of tour operators that listen to this, and that is a struggle for most of them is a few things.

Elinor Fish (56:28.876)
Ha ha ha.

Jason (56:42.644)
One is feedback systems, right? Especially if they’ve got a team and they’re not actually spending time with their clients. Because the feedback they’re getting might be the guides, but the guides have their own desires and needs and wishes and reasons why they’re guides. And the guide might want to talk about, the transfer driver was late again, da-da-da-da-da. And so is all you’re hearing is we have logistical problems.

Elinor Fish (56:44.44)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Elinor Fish (57:01.656)
Nine people.

Jason (57:09.536)
When in reality, maybe that delay created an opportunity for a group of ladies to go grab some street food and and connect with the local culture, and maybe the guest thought it was amazing and the guide is all frustrated and annoyed because they’re trying to sta stay on a time time schedule. That’s just an example in my mind that popped up. So, a tour operator that’s listening to this. What advice is there a particular strategy that or

Elinor Fish (57:14.678)
Yeah,

Jason (57:38.678)
Tactic that worked really well for you that as far as getting that type of feedback. Any a little nugget you can share?

Elinor Fish (57:47.585)
Yeah, gosh. I mean I think it’s really important that there’s a there’s really good communication at every step of the customer journey, you know, and and so whether it’s in your in the sales process, you know, we we spent a lot of time really refining just what those conversations sounded like, and making sure that you know we we were

It was always very much about like listening first to what the customer had to say, ’cause sometimes they would tell us like their whole like running history and like an or an inventory of their running injuries because they wanna they were saying like, Well, I wanna do this one running trip, but I have all these

you know, old injuries and I these are my limitations and these are my needs. Can I still do this trip? And and so that we could answer those questions you know as accurately and specifically to what they wanted to know as possible so that they could make the right decision for them because you know it’s it’s a pretty big deal to book a big group vacation

And then, you know, and then after a trip took place, kind of having that that feedback system, I was pretty reluctant initially to incorporate things like NPS scores, net promoter score, but it actually does turn out to be a really useful tool. What I like about it is you’re not asking

travelers to fill out like a big questionnaire at the end of every trip, which can feel a little bit cumbersome and transactional and and that’s it really wasn’t the kind of relationship we wanted to have with our with our clients. But a simple NPS survey where they just pick a number from one to ten, how likely are they to recommend that trip to another

Elinor Fish (59:43.263)
friend. And then after they pick that number on the scale of one to ten, they have a space in which to just free write whatever it is is most top of mind. You know, yeah, that’s where I felt like, okay, now we’re just getting really honest comments. And and then we had a system for kind of filtering through those comments and and looking through like, okay, so is this something that we could have done better?

Jason (59:51.266)
Why did you choose that number, right? Yeah.

Elinor Fish (01:00:10.668)
You know, or is it just something that’s more about the traveler and has really nothing to do with anything that we did? so we we kind of had to be able to discern about that. But giving people opportunities to be heard, whether it’s in the context of praise or a review or feedback or a sales question, is absolutely critical.

to to this industry, right? We it’s a service-based industry and and so make giving people that those opportunities is essential and is is so important to building trust. So

Jason (01:00:48.63)
I I think you’re I think you’re that’s spot on because you know, e anybody listening to this has been posed with a big questionnaire after they spend all this money to go on a trip. And then they get, what did you think about the accommodations? What did you think about the bathroom? What did you think about the the transfer vehicle? And it’s just overwhelming. And most people probably only really have one thing that they’re either really happy about or that disappointed them.

Elinor Fish (01:01:02.114)
Yeah.

Jason (01:01:17.366)
that they really want to talk about. And asking them about everything on the trip and then hoping that they’ll fill it out and hoping that you will be bright enough to find the one thing they really wanted to talk about is is is different. Where yeah, it’s just like what’s the one thing? And I remember I worked

travel a lot in the Caribbean and there was a lodge that I’d done some business with in Belize and the guy that ran that place, he would just his only question, they didn’t send out any questionnaires. He was there at the lodge, so every time they left, he’s like, What’s the one thing I could do to make this place better?

Just that was it. You know, and and you felt like he was listening. So it could be like, well, you know, colder beer at the bar or more more rum drinks or you know, the the fishing guide we were with all week was kind of you know, grumpy or whatever, you know, so work with them. And and you it cut down the noise because then you’re only hearing what’s important. So and it that’s what it sounds like you were doing as well.

Elinor Fish (01:01:57.331)
That’s great. That’s awesome.

Elinor Fish (01:02:22.913)
Exactly.

Jason (01:02:24.826)
well. So that’s why I wanted to tie that together. All right. That that’s cool. Somebody’s gonna use that and they’re gonna think of you and then they’re gonna come back hey El Elinor, how many other p what other things can we do be doing? But but also getting feedback like that, I suspect, you know, especially tracking it and you know

Elinor Fish (01:02:27.692)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good. That’s good.

Elinor Fish (01:02:37.846)
I’d be happy to answer.

Jason (01:02:47.586)
Taking some action with it or whatever, it has to help when you go to sell a business too, because you could say, well, our net promoter scores are this and this, and generally this is the type of feedback we get. And when we get that feedback, these are how we implement the changes, and as opposed to, well, I’ve got a bunch of reviews. I mean, that’s great too. Reviews are great. I’m not saying they’re not, but it’s it’s just another layer. All right. That’s very cool. so let’s

got unless you want to touch on something else before we move into it. But I think now we get to say, okay, you’ve got this tour business, you had this tour business, and now you’re a consultant that helps other people build value in their tour businesses. So let’s take the leap. How did we get from one to the other?

Elinor Fish (01:03:32.29)
Yeah, okay. Well I’m like, where do I start with that? But I I think you know, obviously when I think back to COVID times, you know, twenty twenty was brutal on the travel industry. And I was just really relieved that I I made it through with my business intact because that was just such a tough period on a lot of travel business owners. you know, and it kind of led me to do a a

pivot with my company because we were mostly international trips and then we kind of pivoted there for like a little while to mostly domestic trips and then as international travel reopened we

you know, reopened a lot of our international trips and so then I had all these domestic trips and all these international trips and, you know, the demand for travel, there was so much pent up demand, right? And that definitely helped fuel a big period of growth in my company that was really exciting. But it definitely tested me and my

Jason (01:04:24.152)
Yeah, yeah.

Elinor Fish (01:04:33.644)
my capacity as a leader and I learned a ton made a lot of new hires, built up my team of retreat leaders and my my travel operations team and added to my marketing team. And so it was a lot of things going on all at once. And it was kind of in the midst of that. I’m like, okay, I think I think I may have taken this as far as I

Jason (01:04:55.586)
Yeah.

Elinor Fish (01:05:01.018)
n intended to because I was feeling burnt out. I could have taken it further.

Jason (01:05:02.284)
Probably yeah, I was th I think you could’ve taken I think you could’ve taken it further, but I I I heard you wanted to say that as far as I wanna take it. Maybe someone else can take it to the next level, huh?

Elinor Fish (01:05:12.474)
Exactly. Like I knew that there was still a lot. Like this business was growing and I knew it had a a huge future potential. But my personal priorities had kind of shifted. I wanted to focus more on family and I I just was starting to to feel like I feel I felt like I had lost parts of myself in that whole process and that my whole life really had been about running my business and it was paying off and I I felt like

Okay, this is succeeding. This is what I wanted to create, but I don’t have a life outside of this. And and so it really kind of got me thinking. and so like I I said earlier, like I really started to prepare the company for sale two years before I actually did. And when I first started that that process with more intention, it I thought I was gonna sell in maybe like five or more years. But like, but you know, the burnout just kind of

Accelerated and I just kind of felt like, okay, I think this is gonna have to happen sooner rather than later.

Jason (01:06:18.754)
Well, I’m I’m curious, I you’ve experienced it. I’ve experienced it. I’ve I I’m not the most patient person on earth. So I’m gonna try and tie it to the analogy of just somebody working a job. Maybe they love the job. But then as soon as they decide they’re gonna leave, you know. It what they call it short termers short timer syndrome. I remember in the army was when you were getting close to getting out, it was like, just get me out of here. So once you kind of emotionally

Elinor Fish (01:06:45.314)
Yeah.

Jason (01:06:47.592)
start planning your departure, it seems like it speeds up a little bit. It does that resonate or ’cause yeah.

Elinor Fish (01:06:55.286)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When I started to think about you know, and I was working with some advisors and people that were helping me and they were asking me like, Well, what would you do if you sold your business? And I was like, I don’t know. Like what a question.

Jason (01:07:10.774)
I’m going to Maui. I don’t know what else.

Elinor Fish (01:07:12.502)
I know, I was like, my gosh, I was like, I would take a vacation. I’m like, no one could call me and I could just like relax a little bit. And when I started to think about that, it just kind of like the mindset started to shift. I’m like, yeah, this has gotta happen. I really I’m ready to to be open to new and other things. you know, and and also too, like my my son’s at an age.

Jason (01:07:16.5)
Mm-hmm.

Elinor Fish (01:07:42.399)
He’s 17 and he’s got a lot of exciting things happening in his life and I I wanted to be a part of that. He gets to now travel for sports and I wanted to be able to go with him on those trips. And and so

Jason (01:07:54.776)
Yeah, yeah.

Elinor Fish (01:07:57.379)
But I just felt a little too, you know, my business was pretty dependent on me. And and so when I talk about like preparing my business for sale, that was really what I needed to to do was to say, okay, how do I get me out of the center of this thing that I built that has become so all consuming? And so

what that really looked like was was starting to look at the business as a set of systems and then one by one, like how do I make them operate more independently of me? So not to say that I ever stepped out of the business altogether. I was still the CEO, I was definitely driving the ship, but it’s not like every system and part depended on

Jason (01:08:31.0)
Mm-hmm.

Elinor Fish (01:08:45.107)
me every single day ’cause that was the part that was unsustainable. So yeah.

Jason (01:08:49.314)
Yeah. Yeah, that’s I I I get that completely. So you said you started working on it, started preparing to sell about two years before you actually finalize the sale. And you thought it might be five years, but it ended up being two. Is that did I get the math right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Elinor Fish (01:09:02.391)
Yeah.

Elinor Fish (01:09:09.91)
Yeah, yeah, and it’s it’s because once I get my mind on something, I like I’m an executor. I move fast and I execute and so so yeah from twenty twenty two to twenty twenty four I’m yeah focusing on

Taking these right actions, I I developed my my plan. I I learned how to calculate business valuation and I’m working with some advisors on on how to do that. And and so then it was like early 2024. In January 2024, I was like, Okay, you know what? Now’s the time. So I reached out to a business broker who turned out just to be just

like a great fit for me. We just clicked on a personal level. It just and he kind of said, okay, here’s how this is going to go. We’re going to put together a marketing package. We’re going to take it to market. And he really tried to manage my expectations that you know that this can take a while. That that you know, it usually takes maybe 12 to 18 months before you find the right buyer, dah, dah. And I’m like, my gosh, I’m not sure

just so ready for this to this next chapter. I’ve already decided like it’s time for me to move on. But now because I had done kind of all this work in terms of organizing, preparing the business, I’m very proud to say that from when we went live on like live online the business listing is up for sale.

I accepted an offer 30 days later. I got an offer on the business, and then the do the due diligence that usually takes months and months and sometimes a year. I had all my documentation in order, and that was done in 30 days. And then forty forty-five days after that, I was done. I I was able to walk away. And

Jason (01:11:15.08)
Yes.

Jason (01:11:21.878)
So anybody that’s listening to this that owns a business and has spoken with a broker that told them the same thing is gonna is gonna want to get on a call with you, I think. Hey, yeah, let’s get this done. That’s very cool. Did you as far as how was it was as far as how it was structured, did you presumably kept running the company until you handed them I’m gonna say the keys, but

Elinor Fish (01:11:29.921)
Yeah.

Elinor Fish (01:11:33.536)
Yeah. And like how did how did we do that? And and I’ll I’ll yeah, like

Jason (01:11:52.675)
Did you have d was part of the structure for you to stick around for a while or stay on as consultant or like how did you structure that part of it? I mean, we don’t need to go into all the detail. I’m just curious if at the minute it was done, you were done and you could go do whatever you wanted to do, or did you need to stick around a little bit?

Elinor Fish (01:12:00.173)
Yeah.

Elinor Fish (01:12:10.85)
Well, it was really just that forty-five day transition period. And the thing was the reason why I was able to be so short was because I didn’t need to stick around and train the new owner on how to do things because what I had done is made sure to fill or I not just fill, but I had a really strong team of employees that transferred with the business. So everyone had ownership over their

their departments, their roles and responsibilities were super clear. They were all working very independently. And so they all transferred and kept doing their exact same roles after the sale closed. So that and and then the jobs that were still on my plate were minimal in terms of my day-to-day activities. And I had made like how-to videos, documentation for those few remaining

routine tasks, you know, leadership style activities. And so we didn’t even need a full 45 days for me to complete that process with the new owner. They were able to pick up the reins very quickly and continue operations uninterrupted. And that was really my goal because I didn’t want our customers to feel any kind of shift or interruption.

to the services they were receiving. And this all happened like during a pretty busy time of year too. You know, we didn’t wait until the slow season. It was like full-on mid-season. We got trips happening in like four or five different countries. I’ve got, you know

Jason (01:13:37.73)
Mm-hmm.

Elinor Fish (01:13:55.595)
field staff coming and going, traveling to different places with their groups. It was all happening. And I’m really proud of how everyone handled it. and that that everything kind of kept going really, really smoothly throughout that whole transition. So yeah, because I knew I once the new owner took the reins, I knew that I I didn’t really want to have to stay too involved and I didn’t need to. So it worked really well.

Jason (01:14:25.858)
As I was listening to that, I I realized it’s probably a common concern when someone is thinking about selling their business, especially these types of businesses, is what you touched on a little bit was the staff. You know, because in these small businesses, especially I think where it’s about experiences and about human connections, it’s you know, it’s not a a a sandwich shop, it’s a tour business.

so there’s that I can imagine somebody that’s like, Man, I’d really like to get out of this, but I worry about my employees and if I sell the business and you know, and the new owner doesn’t like them or comes in and makes changes or whatever. But then I also imagine there’s buyers that are like, well, geez, what if I buy this business and then the whole staff picks up and and leaves to go work for the competition? So that has to be a big part of this conversation.

So what would you say to the person that’s listening to this, thinking that the the seller, the or not yeah, the seller that’s hearing this that’s like, I would have sold my business four years ago, but I worry about my staff? What would you say to, is there a way to address that? Like what do you say to that person?

Elinor Fish (01:15:40.119)
Yeah, I mean, so it there’s a number of things that that’s so important to that and and and it’s it really depends on kind of what your culture is in the company. but being really clear about what your individual key employees motivations are, like how do they see their future in your company? What do they want to get out of that?

Is like to them is it just a job or is it something where they are hoping to grow with the company? Do they have ambitions to move up?

Jason (01:16:13.366)
Maybe they’re hope maybe they’re hoping to own the company. Maybe they were hoping that they would be offered the opportunity to

Elinor Fish (01:16:16.941)
Yeah.

Elinor Fish (01:16:21.97)
Ex exactly. And so that’s why it’s really important that you as the owner know that about kind of your key employees, so that you can kind of anticipate how they may react to the news if you’re selling, or that there’s going to be some other kind of like leadership change. because you know how like people are gonna first and foremost think, how does this affect me as an employee? And so

And then looking for opportunities to take your existing team, that that maybe the people who are performing well and have, you know, a good handle on how things work, is there an opportunity to to elevate that person to more of a managerial role? Does that person

would they would they be able to step up into higher levels of responsibility with your support for for them to to develop those skills to become a manager so that when the business transfers over to a new owner they have that job security because then the the seller can say to that buyer like hey look I’ve got a really strong management team they know the ins and outs of this business and they’re going to

you know, they’re some of our best assets, basically. So

Jason (01:17:36.969)
So do you do you do that in a way like do you go to Bob? He’s your he’s like he’s super rock star, he could probably run the business if given the opportunity. Do you go to Bob and say, Hey Bob, I’m thinking about I’m planning to sell the business and I want to, you know, work with you to have it work really well for you as well, either in a management role or maybe even you have

conversation with Bob about Bob buying the business before you go put it on online somewhere. but that could also backfire.

Elinor Fish (01:18:13.206)
Well there’s yeah, I mean there’s risk in that. So it really depends on the situation. It may or may not be wise to divulge the fact that you’re thinking of selling. because yeah, you it there’s a number of different ways that could play out. So so in a lot of cases, employees are not informed of the sale beforehand, but then in other instances, yes, maybe you know the the

the p the future owner of the business is someone who’s already working in the business. So yeah, it just kind of depends on the situation for sure.

Jason (01:18:47.99)
Right.

Jason (01:18:51.44)
you know what would ease if I was an employee and I woke up on Tuesday morning and found out, wow, Elinor sold the business. There’s two scenarios. One is go back five years earlier when when it was go ask Elinor. I’m not sure what we need to do. Ask Elinor, ask Elinor, ask Elinor. You sell the business when the business is running that way, that’s scary.

Elinor Fish (01:19:20.866)
yeah, yeah.

Jason (01:19:21.516)
But when the when the business has all these systems in place where everybody knows what they’re supposed to do

And Elinor just shows up for the Christmas party. That’s an exaggeration, of course. But then it’s like, okay, well, Elinor, you know, she’s organized, she’s put systems in place, she’s leveraged herself across the team, so it’s not things are not likely to turn into a train wreck three days after the business sells. So that’s another benefit of coming up with a plan, I guess. Yeah, yeah.

Elinor Fish (01:19:54.093)
Yeah, ex exactly. And and and that’s the thing is is the the last thing any seller would want is for an employee to take an action or to to do something that that causes the deal to collapse, which I mean I guess it could happen, but yeah, you it that’s why that planning and and being really thoughtful about all the different aspects of it is really important and it’s worth investing that that time and energy in the business. So

Jason (01:19:55.85)
All right.

Jason (01:20:18.104)
Yeah yeah.

Jason (01:20:22.936)
It’s a little bit more complicated than selling a house. You said it was a good analogy, but there’s there’s a few different levels there that that all right, so so cool. So you’ve been through it, you’ve had the experience, you’ve done that, and that’s I guess at what point did you decide open air consulting was the path? Did you fit did you already know that before you finished selling the business, or did that come up later when you’re like, you know, I learned a lot, I could help people.

Elinor Fish (01:20:25.677)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Elinor Fish (01:20:46.934)
Yeah, well I I think it if well exactly. I think I definitely knew that pretty early on.

I took a nice long sabbatical right after the sale because I’m like, whoo, don’t need to work for a while. This is nice. And so I just kind of needed that career break, which was great. But yeah, I I as an entrepreneur, I just couldn’t imagine going back to working for someone else. It’s like I did that earlier in my career, but I just don’t, I cannot imagine working for someone else. So

Jason (01:20:56.29)
Good for you. Yeah, yeah.

Jason (01:21:09.548)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (01:21:16.916)
And and I cannot imagine you not working. Just based on the conversation I’ve had with you so far. You’re you’re obviously driven and you like to be involved and like to be part of part of things that are happening. So I I I get that. So

Elinor Fish (01:21:29.526)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely was not ready. If people keep joking, like, so are you retired now? I’m like, my God, are you kidding? I’d go crazy. So yeah, yeah. And then this is fun. Like now I I tr I try to approach business, you know, whereas before, you know, I the reason why I got so burnt out running my company was because it just felt like I could never just stop and coast. It was like there was always kind of a new

Jason (01:21:38.018)
I feel the same way. Yeah, yeah.

Elinor Fish (01:21:56.171)
a new threshold to break through. There was always kind of a new challenge to address. Like there was always something and I just felt like I could never just like enjoy enjoy it. except for that last those that last year there, I actually got to while I still own the business, I actually did get to take a European vacation and go and travel with my son. And I was like, I did it because I’d done the work.

Jason (01:22:17.718)
Be because because you took all the time to set it up to where you didn’t have to be there anymore. You you you and I I know you I know you heard what you just said. I heard what you just said, but what I heard you say is even if you don’t want to sell your business, even if you can’t imagine selling your business, gosh, wouldn’t it be nice if you didn’t have to be there all the time?

Elinor Fish (01:22:24.44)
Exactly. I had I had done the prep work. It it could run without me. So

Elinor Fish (01:22:44.898)
Yeah. You just have the freedom to be like, gee, I need to step away for a while. Yeah.

Jason (01:22:48.216)
So so you don’t just advise people on how to sell their business how to get their business ready to sell. You you can the same exact advice would help them free up their time and their f have freedom to go do things and enjoy, maybe actually enjoy their business, right? Is that an accurate statement?

Elinor Fish (01:23:06.39)
Yeah. Absolutely. It should be enjoyable. It doesn’t have to be all consuming, you know. And now that I can I have that perspective, I can see it like more clearly. And that’s why I love doing the work I do now. You know, I st I see it as more of a creative process. It’s not about

making every business cookie cutter. It’s not trying to say your business sees to fit this model or you we’re going to, you know, shoehorn it into a a certain structure. It’s it definitely should always be a creative expression of the owner, the founder’s kind of values and philosophy and passions. And that never has to go away. But there’s also a way to just make it also more fun, even as it

grows and becomes more complex and there’s more you know, there’s kind of more consequences and risk involved as a business grows, but it can st it can still be fun. It still can be rewarding. and it and so I love kind of going on that journey with business owners that are curious about what that could look like for them.

Jason (01:24:17.496)
Cause you said, well, the last year it wasn’t bad. I was able to go on a European vacation and all that stuff. So I have to ask, was there a point after you did the sale where you’re like, you know, the last year was actually not bad. I maybe I could have maybe I could have just kept the company and and ran it that way for a while. Was there a point where you regretted it?

Elinor Fish (01:24:21.206)
Yeah. Yeah.

Elinor Fish (01:24:43.022)
Yes. And I’ve since learned that I think the statistic is 80 or 90% of business owners post-acquisition say the same thing. They all say, I really wish I had wait waited or done it differently or they have some kind of regret, you know. And so yeah, that’s pretty common. Because it’s you see it differently once you have a little bit of distance from

Jason (01:24:55.37)
well

Jason (01:25:07.702)
I

Elinor Fish (01:25:12.246)
you know, what could be like the biggest transaction of your life for some people, you know, you you look back and see it differently, you know, when it’s all said and done.

Jason (01:25:20.812)
I bet I bet the numbers are similar for people that retire. You know, they maybe they work a career for thirty years and they get offered a early retirement package or whatever and they take it and then they’re like, gee, I kinda

Elinor Fish (01:25:26.328)
Mm.

Jason (01:25:37.689)
kinda miss having gollies or whatever it is. You know, I miss identity is a big thing. Be because like my my mom, she’s not gonna listen to this anyway. I keep trying to get her to listen to these, but she w you know, worked in academia and was the chair of a school of physical therapy, a doctoral program. She had that was her identity. You know, it was her, her dogs and her job, her career.

Elinor Fish (01:25:44.416)
It’s huge. Yeah.

Jason (01:26:06.11)
And when she retired, it’s like, you know, it just it’s like now s her identity is retired. And I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that. A lot of people really look forward to that. But i identity can be a big thing. You know, like I’m a t I’m an adventure tour operator. I lead tours and I take groups and I’ve got these employees that do this amazing jobs and and I get to read reviews from people that are happy, we’ve changed lives.

Elinor Fish (01:26:20.866)
Yes.

Jason (01:26:34.476)
And now I’m retired. And I’m not saying that you went there but ’cause you didn’t, ’cause obviously you’re still working. But yeah, I can I get that. I get I get that.

Elinor Fish (01:26:44.29)
Yeah, yeah. But my work now, my pace of of work is so different now. You know, and part of that is intentional, but also too, like this this work isn’t as all consuming as as running a whole company with a whole team. but yeah, it definitely was kind of this feeling of loss for a little bit. And I think it’s really important to as I kind of help

go on this journey with with business owners is to pr help them prepare for kind of the the identity shifts and the the feelings of of loss that come up because yes you get paid out or at least you you get a agreement that you will be paid over time or whatever the terms are, you know, but then you start to realize just how how big a part of your identity the business was and what that means for you now. So yeah.

Jason (01:27:17.72)
Yeah.

Jason (01:27:34.829)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I I I get that. We could keep I I I’ve got some stories, I know you’ve got stories we could probably keep going on about that all all day. I also want to so somebody’s listening to this that’s like, yeah, that sounds cool, it’s probably something I should think about, but I’m not ready to hire someone. I like I don’t even know what that looks like. And this is not an infomercial, but somebody’s listening to this.

And so I think it would be good for you to share with them what would you suggest if somebody’s just kinda toying around with the idea, would like to have a conversation, but doesn’t feel like they’re ready to actually hire anybody or do anything, would would you still encourage them to reach out on your website or or do you have other resources they should look at or what do you think?

Elinor Fish (01:28:21.858)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I love just having these conversations and helping business owners understand maybe where they are in terms of their business development and and just where to start. And and often that conversation starts with them wanting to know what is what is my business worth today? So I do have a free self-assessment on my website that people can take and that can be just a good starting point because it gives them like a 17 page

analysis of the business based on the data that they can provide. And then they we can set up a a call where we can get on the phone and we can go through that together and and just make sure that we have a mutual understanding of like what this means and and what your path might look like from this point in your business development. So that’s on my website which is openairconsulting.com.

Jason (01:29:17.688)
So that sounds really good for somebody that feels they’re organized and they’re emotionally ready to see numbers that maybe many of them just totally have avoided for twenty years. I don’t I’m not sure I wanna know what my business is worth because it could be depressing, it could be sad or whatever.

Elinor Fish (01:29:29.26)
Yeah, yeah.

Jason (01:29:36.012)
But somebody that’s that’s organized and is really thinking about it and is willing to sit down and do that. Do you also is there other ways for people to connect with you just to hey Ellen or I just have a quick question. Like I have this idea in my head that I can’t sell my business because my because I don’t know of

My f my brother-in-law is the manager, whatever. And they just wanna bounce an idea off somebody, is that is there a way for them to connect with you that way or I just trying to see what options are there?

Elinor Fish (01:30:07.34)
Yep, absolutely. Yeah. I mean I I hang out on LinkedIn, where they could they can find me. And also too, I’m members of a I’m

member of a couple of different communities as well, the Adventure Travel Trade Association. So I chat with people on the community hub there. So when you’re a member of that organization, you’re on the hub. And also Women Travel Leaders online community as well. So if you’re a member of that organization, you can also reach out to me at Women Travel Leaders in their online community.

Jason (01:30:41.112)
All right, very cool. And I suspect just because we’re gonna have your website link right in the show notes. If they click that, they’ll probably be able to figure the re the rest of that out in different ways to connect with you. we discuss we discussed a bunch of things and I told you before I hit the record button that I would give you an opportunity if there’s anything I forgot to ask you or wish that I had asked you, you’d have an opportunity. So is there anything else kinda still lingering that that we didn’t touch on that you wanna touch on before we wrap up?

Elinor Fish (01:30:46.136)
Okay.

Elinor Fish (01:30:52.12)
Slowly.

Elinor Fish (01:31:07.972)
gosh, I think we covered a lot, Jason. this has been really fun. Like you kind of took me on a journey down memory lane. You know. so those are really fun to kind of reflect on, you know, all the things, you know, that have kind of led me to do this work now. So I so I think I think we’re good.

Jason (01:31:10.277)
We’d have that right there.

Jason (01:31:24.97)
It’s so

It’s so much fun for me. I just feel so grateful every time I have a conversation like this. I’m like, that’s pretty cool. I got to, you know, spend an hour, hour and a half having a conversation with somebody that’s really interesting and in a lot of ways very similar. Because we’re all like, we all have our own little paths, but they’re all kind of the same in a in a way. We all just kind of relate to to each other in this in this space and that’s so much fun. So thanks for thanks for taking time to share that with me.

And I look forward to staying connected with you in the future. Thank you so much, Elinor. Appreciate it. All right. Have a great day. Bye.

Elinor Fish (01:32:01.484)
Yeah, thank you. Thanks. Me too.

 

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