Guest Bio
Emma Valahu is the founder of Inbox Journeys, a consultancy that helps experiential travel businesses build high-converting email systems rooted in trust, storytelling, and authentic connection. With a background in education and a global footprint that spans Ecuador, Romania, and beyond, Emma draws on her personal journey to help travel founders transform casual website visitors into warm, qualified leads—without relying on hard sales tactics or constant manual outreach.
Show Summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Emma Valahu, founder of Inbox Journeys, about her global path from teaching English online to becoming a sought-after consultant for experiential travel brands. Emma shares how her experiences living abroad and homeschooling her children shaped her unique perspective on both education and entrepreneurship. Her story is one of reinvention, rooted in curiosity and a love of connection across cultures.
The conversation dives deep into the challenges travel business owners face when trying to grow their audience without burning out. Emma unpacks why email marketing remains the most powerful tool in a founder’s toolkit—and how to use it in a way that feels aligned, intentional, and human. From lead magnets to nurture sequences, Emma offers insights into building trust at scale while staying true to your values.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Travel has the power to reshape how we live, parent, and build businesses
- ✓ Homeschooling gave Emma a front-row seat to how curiosity fuels real learning
- ✓ Your email list is your most valuable asset—if you use it with care
- ✓ Transformational travel marketing starts long before a guest books a trip
- ✓ Automated systems can feel personal when designed with empathy
- ✓ Relying solely on word-of-mouth limits your growth and reach
- ✓ Unsubscribes aren’t rejections—they’re signs you’re refining your audience
- ✓ A great lead magnet speaks to a specific problem your audience actually has
- ✓ Consistent, thoughtful messaging builds trust over time
- ✓ Sustainable marketing lets you nurture leads without constant hustle
What You’ll Find on Inbox Journeys
- ✓ Done-for-you email funnels crafted for adventure travel brands
- ✓ Lead magnet creation that actually converts casual browsers into clients
- ✓ Strategic marketing audits to uncover what’s holding your list back
- ✓ Templates, trainings, and support for soulful email marketing
- ✓ A human-first approach to automation and scale
- ✓ A mission to help travel founders grow without sacrificing authenticity
Learn more about Inbox Journey and connect with Emma at:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-valahu/
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Jason Elkins (00:01.241)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. Today we’ve got Emma, Valahu Valahu? I practiced it 14 times before I hit the record button. And then as soon as I started to say it, had a like, Valahu.
Emma Valahu (00:11.458)
That’s right.
Emma Valahu (00:18.552)
That’s good.
Jason Elkins (00:20.603)
You say it for us.
Emma Valahu (00:23.928)
Valahu
Jason Elkins (00:24.859)
Yeah, that’s exactly perfect. right. Emma, so nice to have you here. Emma’s the founder of Inbox Journeys and we’re going to discuss that a little bit because before I hit the record button, we were discussing the name of her business and how it kind of makes sense. So we’re going to get there in just a second. Emma, so, so appreciative for you being here with us today. Welcome to the show.
Emma Valahu (00:43.854)
Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.
Jason Elkins (00:46.105)
Emma, where are you physically located right now?
Emma Valahu (00:49.662)
I’m in Romania, actually, near the Black Sea, hence the Romanian name, because my husband is from here. But I’m originally from Scotland, from the UK, Scotland.
Jason Elkins (01:01.979)
Okay, that explains the accent a bit. Let’s jump right into inbox journeys. So what is that? When someone hears that name, what should they be thinking? Or what do you hope that they’re thinking?
Emma Valahu (01:15.736)
What I’m hoping they’re thinking is that for businesses, I work with transformational travel businesses, and what I’m hoping that they will understand and feel is that the journey that their customer takes with them starts way before they actually make a booking or an inquiry. And ideally, it should be starting on their website and then going to their inbox.
because you want to be capturing these people who are just not ready yet to be clicking that inquire now button or that book now button. Most people aren’t ready. And so you want to be capturing those people, getting them onto your email list and starting that transformational journey there rather than just kind of bombarding them with marketing on your website, on your social media and…
deciding that the transformation starts once they’ve paid you. To my mind, it starts way, way before that.
Jason Elkins (02:18.117)
Right. I think that’s very wise.
Jason Elkins (02:22.863)
And I think that applies to many different types of business transactions, not just tourism. I know that’s kind of your specialization and obviously that’s kind of what we’re gonna discuss here today, but I think people that are listening to this that maybe they’re not tour operators, they can maybe apply some of this stuff to their own business. And more importantly, this conversation is not all about your business, it’s about you.
Emma Valahu (02:40.439)
Absolutely.
Jason Elkins (02:46.331)
because you’re somebody that I ran across recently, had a nice conversation with, and I was just kind of fascinated by your story and what you’re doing in the world to make this big world feel a little bit smaller. So let’s go into that. We know that you work with tour operators people. You said responsible tour operators. don’t want to put words in your mouth.
Emma Valahu (02:46.574)
You
Emma Valahu (03:07.756)
I am drawn more to tour operators, businesses, kind of the smaller ones, the kind of more boutique size, the, so I’m thinking like, you know, retreats, surf camps, kind of adventure trip organizers who do also have a passion for kind of regenerative tourism, for involving the community within their packages, within…
what it is they’re offering and the experience that they are giving to their guests, their travelers, their customers, however they want to call them. Yeah, so that is something which I do feel quite strongly about, know, not rather than, you know, getting as many people onto the beach in 25 different countries as possible. That’s not what… Yeah.
Jason Elkins (03:49.753)
Which is exactly.
Jason Elkins (03:57.029)
which is exactly why you and I are chatting today. Cause that’s a kind of, kind of, kind of my same, my same little niche, I guess, if you want to call it that, but all right. So we’ve kind of touched on a little bit of what you do. We’re going to come back to it, but let’s go back to the beginning. Let’s try and figure out Emma, how did you get from where you were to where you are now? What kind of, got you into tourism? How far back do you think we should go to start? And then I’m going to push you to go back another five years or so before that.
Emma Valahu (04:24.24)
wow. I think, thinking about my journey, and I was thinking about this a little bit before we started talking. When I was at school, last year of school, and I’m going to challenge you to go any further back than that. When I was at school, it was…
Jason Elkins (04:42.203)
All right. I’m pretty good at this, but okay, go ahead. Let’s start there. So, well, tell me, when you say last year of school, are we talking last year of primary school, secondary school, university? What are we talking about?
Emma Valahu (04:53.204)
no, no, we’re talking high school here. Well, in Scotland it’s called secondary school, not high school. And so I was in my last year of school and thinking, OK, well, now what do I do? University was the accepted route for me. And I took it because my family would have just thrown a fit. But it’s like, what am I going to do? And at that time, there just wasn’t the kind of career advice that I’m hoping.
Jason Elkins (04:56.506)
Okay.
Okay.
Jason Elkins (05:13.179)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Valahu (05:22.656)
young people get today of what you should be studying, what direction you should be going, what options are available to you. And so I thought, well, what am I good at? OK, I was quite good at English. So I went to study English. So, OK, after three years of studying Shakespeare and Philip Marlowe and, you know, all these other, sorry, Christopher Marlowe, not Philip Marlowe, I do like Philip Marlowe.
things. It’s like what on earth do I do with this now? Because now I’m in my last year of university, what do I do next? And the only kind of passion I had ever had in my being of what I wanted to do was I wanted to work abroad. That was the only thing. people say what do you want to do? It’s like I don’t know, but I know I want to work abroad.
Jason Elkins (06:06.894)
Okay.
Jason Elkins (06:12.153)
Okay, so here’s my opportunity to push you five years before you finish school. Because I suspect you were thinking this before. What’s the youngest or when did you first remember thinking I want to work abroad or live abroad?
Emma Valahu (06:17.016)
Go on then.
Emma Valahu (06:27.83)
Hmm. Yeah, I suppose that has just always been there. Certainly throughout my teens.
Jason Elkins (06:32.805)
Yeah.
Okay, where did that come from?
Emma Valahu (06:38.646)
I really don’t know. I don’t know what.
Jason Elkins (06:40.635)
Did you travel much when you were younger? Did you have somebody in your family that was out traveling? I’m just curious what triggered that.
Emma Valahu (06:48.578)
not a great deal. We didn’t have a great deal of money floating around. So we didn’t take like long holidays abroad. didn’t go and, you know, spend two weeks on the beach. My holidays were spent at my grandparents in the north of Scotland on the coast. And my beach was a stony beach on the North Sea. But no, we didn’t do a lot of traveling abroad. had, you know, I’d been to a couple of
Jason Elkins (07:06.629)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Emma Valahu (07:16.6)
places, a couple of countries, but no. But there was just something inside me that said I wanted to get away from where I was and I wanted to kind of explore and work in other countries.
Jason Elkins (07:29.337)
Well, we could probably analyze the heck out of that, but we won’t do that on this episode anyway. So anyway, what I hear you saying is you had this, I want to get away and go do something. So, all right. So you’re finishing up school. You majored in English and where did it go from there?
Emma Valahu (07:32.309)
Yeah.
Emma Valahu (07:39.99)
Yeah, more or less.
Emma Valahu (07:48.366)
English and history of art actually those were the two kind of my two passions. I don’t know they weren’t really passions, interests at that time. So once you’ve finished university and you’ve got, know, okay, that’s great. I can write an essay. Now what do I do? Because that’s not a very useful skill to have when you’re looking in the job market. And I thought, well, until I know what I want to do, until I figure this out, I would quite like to just go to travel.
Jason Elkins (07:57.156)
Hmm?
Emma Valahu (08:17.42)
Okay, how can I do that and survive and live at the same time? So the obvious answer at that time was to teach English. So because I had the English and this was the opportunity to travel, the two seem to go together pretty well. So that’s what I did. I trained to teach English to foreign students, to adults, and off I went. Started off in Poland.
spent a long time there and kind of traveled here and there, growing my teaching career for a long time.
Jason Elkins (08:54.939)
So I’m curious because like right now I’ve been traveling full time. I run into a lot of people that are traveling teaching English, but frankly at this point, a lot of them are doing it online. So they’re sitting in a coffee shop or a coworking space or whatever giving lessons, English lessons. I’m guessing that when you got, I mean, you’re much younger than I am, I’m sure, but I’m guessing you weren’t doing it a lot of remote. So this was in-person teaching.
Emma Valahu (09:16.148)
Hahaha!
Emma Valahu (09:22.146)
Yeah, absolutely, because I’m maybe gonna reveal my age a little bit here. When I started out, the internet was in its very, very early stages. There was not the possibility to do that. It didn’t exist. No. It wasn’t possible.
Jason Elkins (09:34.105)
You didn’t have to say that. I did not say that for you, but I understand. understand. I can relate to that. So were you doing, was it mostly one-on-one? I’m just kind of curious what that was like. Was it one-on-one group classes?
Emma Valahu (09:47.128)
through language schools. got, yeah, group classes, some one-on-ones if I was able to get private work, but mostly it was working with language schools. Eventually the British Council. I worked with the British Council and then I also eventually trained to be a teacher trainer. So I would then teach others to do what I did, which I really, really enjoyed. I really loved that. And that took me to Ecuador.
Jason Elkins (10:15.259)
What is the British Council? I’m sorry. What is the British Council? just, if I don’t know something, I’m going to ask.
Emma Valahu (10:18.231)
I’m sorry?
Emma Valahu (10:23.566)
So the British Council is an organisation that promotes British kind of culture and education, British Britain abroad. It’s separate from like the embassy. It’s a, although they do work closely with the embassy, but it’s just a business that’s or an institution that promotes Britain in other countries.
Jason Elkins (10:48.283)
And maybe that’s why I grew up in the U S so maybe that’s why I never heard of it. I don’t know. I don’t know that they have a big presence there, but, a lot of, a lot of influences in the past, but, all right. So anyway, so you were working with them, and trained to be a trainer of other teachers. All right. And then you started to say you went to Ecuador, which I’m super excited. Ecuador is one of my favorite places on earth. So tell us about that.
Emma Valahu (10:52.479)
Hahaha!
I’m sure I’m-
Possibly, Yes.
Emma Valahu (11:06.552)
teacher treatment. Yeah.
Emma Valahu (11:13.266)
It was amazing. I loved Ecuador. If there’s some place, know, when you kind of, are in a place and it just feels like you could just live there forever. Like it feels like home and you can’t quite say why, but it’s just that feeling that was Ecuador for me. And I spent six months there. I could have lived
Jason Elkins (11:31.045)
Wow, was that your first? I’m curious. Was that your first time in Latin America? Yeah.
Emma Valahu (11:34.646)
Yes, by first and only time in Latin America. And yeah, I could have stayed there forever.
Jason Elkins (11:42.927)
Well, I will ask, why didn’t you? Why didn’t you stay forever?
Emma Valahu (11:48.234)
Various things, the job finished and I had a family who, know, young children and it’s very difficult to work in these kinds of positions and have your family with you. And so that was the point where it was like, that was when I did go online. I thought, okay, I now need to do this job, make an income, make a living.
And I need to be at home to do it. And that was when I then explored the online world of teaching English. And then that was how I then started to make my own business, teaching English online.
Jason Elkins (12:30.491)
So when you say you needed to be home, are we talking back in Scotland at that point or? Okay. All right. Very cool.
Emma Valahu (12:34.316)
Yes, yeah, Scotland. Went back to Scotland and that meant that because up until that point, I was the one kind of doing all the travelling and the working and my husband was having to stay at home with our girls because we were homeschooling at that point, trying to make that work. And that was just not working very well for anybody. So it then just became it became a kind of a real
Jason Elkins (12:50.255)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (12:58.809)
That’s a tough.
Emma Valahu (13:03.736)
crunch of, well, yeah, I would love to stay abroad. I’d love to stay in Ecuador and keep doing this. But to have a family at the same time, it was just impossible.
Jason Elkins (13:15.331)
I get that completely. And I suspect that you probably didn’t have a lot of people in your world or social life that were working online remotely at all at that point, right? Yeah.
Emma Valahu (13:27.83)
I didn’t know anybody. I didn’t know anybody who was doing it because it was only just becoming a certainly in the world of teaching English. It was only just becoming a kind of a thing. At least I thought so. I hadn’t heard about it. But once I started investigating and doing a bit of research, I suddenly realized that actually there are platforms specifically for this for teachers to start to build their own business online. So it had existed. I just wasn’t aware of it.
And so that was what I did. I kind of looked at all of these different platforms and I chose one that I wanted to work through. And that was how I started to get my own students and to build my own business.
Jason Elkins (14:08.655)
I’m going to ask you a personal question. We get to it out later if we need to. But so what I heard you say was you were traveling around, you spent six months in Ecuador away from your family, away from your husband, your daughters, you moved back to Scotland. Now you’re working at home, presumably maybe in coffee shops. I don’t know. You can tell me, but at home. So your husband’s at home, homeschooling the kids. So you went from kind of being off on your own in Ecuador to being
Emma Valahu (14:12.54)
Ha
Emma Valahu (14:28.192)
At home, never on the
Jason Elkins (14:38.059)
all very close together. Anything you want to share with our listeners about making that transition?
Emma Valahu (14:40.942)
Yeah. No, it’s not as drastic as it sounds.
Jason Elkins (14:48.237)
Or maybe it was maybe as amazingly wonderful good. I’m not I’m not implying any positive or negative. just but it is a transition.
Emma Valahu (14:53.166)
you
It was difficult to, how can I say this? It was difficult to not have a plan for the next kind of abroad or the next job abroad. I mean, I hadn’t been, I hadn’t, I’d had jobs in the UK as well. It wasn’t continuously away. I worked in Aberdeen University teaching international students who were preparing to start their.
Jason Elkins (15:10.765)
Yeah, yeah.
Emma Valahu (15:25.838)
masters courses or their undergraduate courses. So I had also worked in the UK, but my love was to work abroad. So I didn’t really think of it too much because I just thought, this is just this part of my life. You this is just a transition or this is just this bit and other opportunities will come up. But from a family perspective, it was great because I, you know, my girls, they did, they suffered a little bit. They didn’t like having mom.
Jason Elkins (15:54.075)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Valahu (15:55.008)
abroad or in a way and didn’t really understand. They were quite small. So it was, you know, that was wonderful to be able to be back home and just to kind of be with them and make them happy again. Because I knew that they were not, you know, they were not happy.
Jason Elkins (16:09.337)
Yeah, I get that completely. I also, you know, I speak with and kind of live in some of those same circles where it’s like, when you’re when you have this thing in you that wants to go travel or live abroad or whatever. It can be tough when you don’t have I don’t want to say a trip plan, but I don’t know else to say it when you don’t have a trip plan when it’s like when you’re like, OK, I’m going to come home for six months and work for this job, and then I’m going to go to the next place.
Emma Valahu (16:34.595)
Done.
Jason Elkins (16:38.523)
there’s kind of that anticipation of going to the next place. And so I’m curious, were you able to travel as a family? How did you fill that void at that time? Or did you even notice it?
Emma Valahu (16:52.43)
Well, after a couple of years, we moved to Romania. So that kind of filled that space, I guess.
Jason Elkins (16:56.069)
you
Jason Elkins (16:59.461)
Why Romania? Why Romania? You said your husband is Romanian?
Emma Valahu (17:03.276)
Yeah, yeah. So the initial move, this is another kind of whole direction that we went into, was we wanted to try and live a more kind of, we were still trying to homeschool at this point, and we wanted to live a more kind of sustainable life, more self-sufficient life. We were able to buy a piece of land out here with,
Jason Elkins (17:27.29)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Valahu (17:32.782)
our house and a substantial piece of ground to do that, to be able to grow vegetables, fruit and have chickens and ducks and whatever. And that was why we initially moved out here, because by that point I could work from anywhere. It didn’t matter where I was. I can do it online. could, you know, I can really work from anywhere. And so that was why we moved out here.
initially was to try and do that because that is also another part of me that or kind of a pattern. Yeah, a passion, if you’d like to say that, you know, I am very drawn to the natural world. I can’t live in cities. I couldn’t live in an apartment. If you paid me, I have to be surrounded by nature. I have to be able to see mountains and trees and forests. And I want to be in it and be able to
Jason Elkins (18:19.589)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Valahu (18:30.648)
participate in it on a daily basis.
Jason Elkins (18:33.451)
I’m curious if you felt, because I think some people might, is I’ve got this desire to go maybe travel, live abroad, but then I’ve got this desire to, I’m going to use the word homestead. Like I’ve got this desire to homestead and have my own place and my own space that I’m surrounded by the nature that I love. Was that a conflict for you or did those, your needs were kind of met either way?
Emma Valahu (18:47.042)
Yeah.
Emma Valahu (19:03.234)
I’ll tell you what it is about me and travel because when people say that they like to travel they generally mean they like to lots of different countries. They want to go and see all these different countries and they will spend a week, two weeks, maybe a month in a country and that hasn’t been something that I have ever really wanted to do. That doesn’t really pull me at all because it’s just too short.
you don’t really get any kind of feeling or transformation if you want from spending two or three weeks in Greece or in Thailand or wherever you want to go. So for me, whenever I have traveled, it has been with the purpose to actually stay and live there for a set amount of time. And that to me is, that is how I travel and how I’ve, because it,
Jason Elkins (19:30.715)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Valahu (20:00.556)
If remember when I was telling you about this kind of the only thing I knew that I wanted to do was to work abroad. It wasn’t to travel to many different countries. It was just to work in another country. So when we came.
Jason Elkins (20:11.643)
Why do you think that is? Have you been able to put your finger on that? That’s a tough one. I haven’t figured myself out. I’m not suggesting you should have.
Emma Valahu (20:17.358)
not really. I need to go to a shrink and work it all out. I’ve probably got some deep trauma.
Jason Elkins (20:26.223)
The shrink is going to say, what exactly are you trying to get away from? I heard you say that. Yeah. But anyway, we won’t go there. That’s not what this, this is not a psychology podcast.
Emma Valahu (20:30.07)
Exactly.
Emma Valahu (20:34.094)
So when you’re saying, know, how do I kind of balance that need to travel and also to homestead because they seem to be opposites. The fact that I am doing it not in my own country fulfills that need because I am not at home, well, I am at home, but it’s not home home. I am in another country and doing it. So I think that is probably the reason why I can
make them work together.
Jason Elkins (21:06.459)
Are you interested in sharing what your family back in Scotland thought about you traveling around and now you’re in Romania? that her? Should we just move on to the next subject? They might listen to this.
Emma Valahu (21:17.358)
No, My father was always encouraging me to be bold, as he said. was always making me be bold. From my earliest memories of being with him was, you he was always going to the adventure playground that we lived near when I was like…
five, six years old. And he would just encourage me to go on the highest rope climbing thing in the tree and do the thing which scares you the most. And so I think maybe that’s kind of stayed with me and everybody else in my family, I think, appreciates that that is just the way that I am.
Jason Elkins (22:15.843)
Are you like that with your daughters?
Emma Valahu (22:18.614)
Yes, but it hasn’t quite rubbed off in the same way. They are very independent and I’ve always encouraged them and continue to encourage them to follow whatever it is that kind of drives them. And even if that means that they think it’s going to go against what they think I want them to do. And this is this is something which I kind of struggled with with my
on my kind of my mother’s side of the family, grandparents, because there was a lot of pressure there to live up to expectations. And that may have been one of the reasons for me wanting to just escape. Can’t live up to if they can’t see you. If you’re not in the country, they don’t know if you’re living up to their expectations. But yeah, so there was a great deal of pressure on that side of my family, not from my father, but on my kind of
Jason Elkins (23:03.248)
Look at us, we’re getting all deep.
Emma Valahu (23:18.318)
or my mother really, but for the pressure from her parents, my grandparents was to do that. And so I really have tried not to pass that on to my children. I, you when I say to them, what is it that you want to do? And don’t answer the answer that you think I want to hear because that’s not the right answer. Exactly.
Jason Elkins (23:39.067)
I don’t know mom, what do you think I should do? Right, yeah.
Emma Valahu (23:42.69)
And I’m happy to give them advice and tell them what I think they should do by saying, but that’s what I think you should do. What do you think you should do?
Jason Elkins (23:49.567)
And I suspect, I don’t know, I shouldn’t suspect anything, but if my child, if my child, cause I’m, I think I come from the same mindset. My father was definitely a push the envelope, get outside your comfort zone. There were things we did when I was young that I’m kind of surprised we survived. I’ve got a brother and I’m kind of surprised we lived through it. Cause there were some packing trips in the mountains in the winter and
Emma Valahu (23:53.873)
Ha
Jason Elkins (24:17.679)
bungee jumping out of balloons and repelling off of cliffs and caving and all this crazy stuff that, but anyway, but when my kids come to me now and, and one advice I tend to my bias is towards the, what’s going to get you outside your comfort zone. You know, what’s going to create the most growth for you, not what’s the easy route. and I, it sounds like you can do it the same. You know, you mentioned a couple of times we tried to homeschool.
Emma Valahu (24:46.124)
Yes.
Jason Elkins (24:46.179)
We tried the homeschooling thing. I think I need to kind of dig a little deeper on that. What, what, what happened there?
Emma Valahu (24:50.626)
Ha!
Emma Valahu (24:57.39)
I had never even thought about homeschooling until my daughter, my first daughter was born. And I can remember the moment when she was about eight or nine months old and just thinking, I really don’t want you to have to go through all that school pressure and crap, if you’ll excuse my language, that I felt that I went through. Again, filling other people’s expectations of my.
Jason Elkins (25:20.933)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Valahu (25:26.72)
educational journey. And once I had kind of made that decision or had that idea, it just kind of grew and grew. And again, I just when I have these kinds of ideas, I just do a massive amount of research and reading. And that was what I did. And the more I looked at kind of the education system and
Jason Elkins (25:29.189)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Valahu (25:55.532)
the alternatives, the more I felt deep down that our education system is actually.
destroying our children and just turning them into automatons almost. And that what I really want is for them to enjoy learning, to enjoy and to love being curious and discovering things. And if they want to spend the entire day, you know,
finding out why frogs are green or whatever, that they should be able to do that rather than, no, now you’ve got to go and do maths. now you’ve got to go and do English. No, now you’re going to go and run around the football pitch for half an hour. It just seemed like a far more natural way to learn and to discover your own talents and to enjoy the process. I did not enjoy the process of school. And I would say that the vast majority of people don’t.
Very few people come out of school and go, wow, great, that was such a great experience. I loved every minute of that. Most people hate it.
Jason Elkins (27:01.967)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (27:08.827)
I think you’re right, I think an awful lot do. I think schools do a pretty good, there’s nothing disparaging on somebody that works a regular normal factory job or anything like that, but the schools, I think do a pretty good job of creating factory workers. And I don’t want to get canceled for saying this, but it’s, but.
For the person that has that personality, maybe we can call it ADD or whatever we want to call it that wants to go look at frogs and spend all day doing different things. It can be a painful experience. And what I resonated with what you said about your daughter, I remember when my daughter was born, the very, very first emotion that I remember after she was born was, will protect her to the ends of the earth.
I don’t want anybody to cause her any pain. And I now realize that that’s not realistic, but that desire was to protect her. And if you had a painful experience going to school, it seems normal that you’re like, well, I’m going to protect her from going through that painful experience. So I don’t know, that’s kind of what came up. How long were you able to, because you said tried. So how long did that mindset work and what came out of it?
Emma Valahu (28:21.152)
Yeah.
Emma Valahu (28:29.738)
It worked for a little while. I would say for maybe kind of like three or four years, five years, maybe more actually. Maybe it was longer. I’m trying to think. Maybe five or six years with my eldest daughter. But there were two things. One was you also have to take into account what your children want.
Jason Elkins (28:39.269)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Valahu (29:00.054)
because otherwise you’re just doing to them exactly what somebody else was doing to you, but in a different context.
Jason Elkins (29:05.699)
And then they grow up and have kids and they’re like, I’m going to make sure my kids don’t get homeschooled because that was horrible. Yeah. Yep.
Emma Valahu (29:10.912)
Yes, exactly. Exactly. So they were then kind of curious. Well, what is it like at school? I want to try school. I do actually want to go to school and see. So I didn’t want to fight that, even though I was fairly sure what the result was going to be. I did feel kind of powerless to stop it. And
That’s kind of what happened is that they went to school and my youngest absolutely loved it. She used to cry when she had to come home at the end of the day.
Jason Elkins (29:54.7)
jeez. Nothing makes a parent feel better. yeah.
Emma Valahu (29:55.98)
when she was really little. I don’t know how to make you feel like a complete, completely inadequate. Yes. You have a good day. Yeah. That’s when she was like five years old because they were just doing, you know, playing in the sand and you know, just she was having a great time. But then as they got older, then, you know, all the things that they didn’t want to do kicked in and, you know, they didn’t want to do home.
Jason Elkins (30:01.281)
So happy to see you, sweetheart. Thank you so much. Yeah.
And it would go…
Emma Valahu (30:24.278)
and they didn’t want the teacher yelling at them and telling them that they were, you know, idiots and they didn’t want to spend their day sitting in, you know, behind desks and whatever. But by that point, it was our kind of careers had moved on. We weren’t in a position then to reverse the situation. So we were just kind of like, it’s like, well, you you decided that you wanted to do this and now we really can’t go back.
Jason Elkins (30:33.892)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (30:44.347)
yeah, yeah.
Emma Valahu (30:53.582)
And all we can do now is kind of support you the best we can in the education system. I’m not going to, you know, get on your back that, you you haven’t done X, Y and Z. You know, I expect you to, you know, do the work that the teacher asks you, but, you know, I’m not going to go ballistic. I tried not to. Obviously, I wanted them, I wanted them to do well.
Jason Elkins (31:15.771)
put that pressure on them that maybe people in your life put on you. Yeah.
Emma Valahu (31:22.86)
because society will judge you, especially in Romania, there is a big pressure to have good grades at school. And that if you don’t, then it really does actually affect what you do afterwards. Whereas in Britain, I think, and possibly in the States and other countries, there isn’t, I think there are other routes available to you, even if you are not academically brilliant.
Whereas in this country, it’s my experience of it anyway, is that there are then kind of limitations. So I did want them and I do, one of them is still at school to do well. Just going back, I just wanted to touch on something that you said earlier about, you know, the education system and what it’s actually producing. You know, there are obviously people who…
do go through the education system and they either don’t think very much about it or they like it. I’d say the vast majority just tolerate it. And people go from school to university and they become brilliant people. What I was, the kind of side that I was coming from is that when in society, because when I was homeschooling, the first question that anybody tells you,
or asks you rather, when you tell them that I homeschool, they tend to get very defensive because they feel that the implication is that because they don’t homeschool that I’m criticizing them in some way. So the very first question everybody says is, well, what about socialization? And this used to bother me for a while, not them asking it. It was like, well, okay, what about socialization? But after doing all the research,
reading whatever, can you think of a situation in real life where you are shot in a room for eight, six to eight hours a day with people who are only the same age as you?
Emma Valahu (33:38.484)
or in that the year that you were born, that 12 month period. Not just occasionally, but for every single day of your life except weekends for 12 years.
Jason Elkins (33:38.703)
Good point.
Jason Elkins (33:42.82)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (33:53.477)
Yeah.
Emma Valahu (33:53.494)
Is that really teaching us how to socialize or is it teaching us how to tolerate being in that situation? Because it’s so unnatural. We never in real life have to spend that much time with people who are only our age doing exactly the same thing together at the same time. How does that prepare somebody for going and working in an office or anything?
functioning outside in the real world. And this was one of the kind of strongest things for me to think that, yes, this is not the way to learn. Sitting behind a desk, teacher at the front talking, and you just sitting there kind of writing things down with 25 other people doing exactly the same thing.
Jason Elkins (34:40.261)
You’re right, because when you see kids engaging in their neighborhoods or just imagine a community that doesn’t have a school, I’m not saying that education is bad. I’m just saying you look at a community that maybe doesn’t have a traditional school, you’ve got everything from the teenagers down to the four-year-olds engaging with each other, playing role modeling and interacting and
maybe not all of it’s appropriate. I’m sure there’s some things like, well, maybe we should keep the 14 years away from 14 years away from the seven year olds, because they’ll teach them bad habits and all this stuff. but you’re you’re absolutely you’re absolutely right about that. And when? Hmm. Well, let me ask you this, if you were to do it over again, because what I heard you say was we kind of
I didn’t want them to have the typical school experience. So we did the homeschooling, made that decision early on and then they wanted to go to school. Makes sense. I mean, in a sense, you could say, I wanna go live overseas. So your kids are like, I wanna go to school. So how do you stand in the way, right? But again, I guess my question is, would you have done it in a different order if like…
Because I’m thinking if you put your kids in school for the first five years and then give them the option of going to homeschooling, would that be a better order?
Emma Valahu (36:03.5)
Yeah, that would have been a better way to do it. Because actually, children generally, generally, I would say, enjoy the first kind of three, four years of school, I think. They don’t mind.
Jason Elkins (36:15.407)
Yeah. Cause that’s the opportunity for them to do a little bit more learning about engagement, socializing and social structures and stuff like that. then, yeah.
Emma Valahu (36:23.66)
Yeah, and it’s also when the fun stuff happens in school, you know, they’re doing all the kind of fun stuff at that point, aren’t they? And they’re learning the kind of the basics. And that is very, that is
I think the most kind of intensive part of homeschooling is when they’re younger, because they require you to actually just provide everything for them, teaching them to write, teaching them to read, telling them what to do, tell them to do this, do this. By the time they get to about 10, 11, 12, they’re developing their own interests and they’re able to be a little bit more autonomous and independent and decide, you
I’m just going to go and read this book about dinosaurs or about Egypt or about quantum physics or whatever it is that they want to read. You don’t have to put the book in front of them.
Jason Elkins (37:13.979)
And I’m imagining that it’s probably easier to juggle and like, you know, if you’ve got a job, especially if it’s online, you know, if you can be at home and you’re working and they’re working. A lot of us saw that during COVID, you know, that was a lot of difficult things in that timeframe. But one of the things was there were a lot of kids, you know, doing schoolwork from home. Some of them thrived in it, others did not, but it was, but there were situations.
Emma Valahu (37:21.676)
Yes, yes, exactly.
Emma Valahu (37:31.362)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Valahu (37:41.772)
Yeah, but that’s the same way with the traditional classroom system. Some people thrive in it and some people don’t. So there is no perfect system, but I think we should have choices.
Jason Elkins (37:46.618)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (37:53.915)
Exactly, because every kid is every kid is different. We’ve got all these different personality styles and types and some some kids thrive in that structure and other kids that just destroys their self esteem and their willingness to live. You know, so I get that, especially probably people that listen to this show or that have been on this show. There’s a I won’t speak for you. I won’t speak for any of my other guests, but I suspect we have.
Emma Valahu (37:57.496)
Hmm.
Emma Valahu (38:00.961)
Yeah, yeah.
Emma Valahu (38:08.11)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (38:20.891)
probably a higher propensity to have been diagnosed with ADD or ADHD when we were younger. People that work in the tourism business. I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong. I think there is, you know, that’s what do I know? But there’s an awful lot of people that just, you know, I just, the, which actually can be a challenge too, because I think a lot of us really enjoy the
Emma Valahu (38:30.03)
You think? You think there’s a correlation?
Is that all?
Jason Elkins (38:47.951)
the new experiences, sharing the new experiences, all the different kind of cool things that come up if we’re leading tours or if we’ve got a tour operation business. And some of us maybe struggle with the structure and the routine and things that you help some of your clients with to help them kind of create a predictable journey through the pipeline or whatever that we’re going to discuss. anyway, I have no idea.
Emma Valahu (39:10.966)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah. Won’t be. I hadn’t thought about that.
Jason Elkins (39:17.179)
Anyway, so you said one of your daughters is still in school. I’m just curious, how did this all translate? You don’t need to tell us what direction you think they’re going, but you just share. just curious, are they going to go live overseas or what are they up to?
Emma Valahu (39:33.592)
Leave it? Well, no. I don’t know what they’re going to do. It’s kind of very open at the moment. My youngest keeps going, I’m not going to university. To, well, maybe I’ll go to university. To, no, don’t think so. Who knows? I don’t know. And I don’t want to be the one who pushes them in a direction that they’re going to hate later.
Jason Elkins (39:37.915)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (39:43.621)
That’s good.
Jason Elkins (40:02.361)
Love it. I think it’s good to be at that point. I mean, I say that I’m 52. How old am I? Yeah, 52. And I’m still not sure what I’m gonna do. So.
Emma Valahu (40:02.72)
It will work itself out.
Emma Valahu (40:13.432)
Well, me too. I have, I still don’t know exactly what it is I want to get. I’m still at that when I was, when I went to study to learn how to teach English, I thought, I’ll do this until I know what I want to do. And here I am. not quite sure what it is though. My purpose in life. Maybe it’s this.
Jason Elkins (40:17.135)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (40:25.371)
I can relate.
I can relate to that. So help us kind of understand where you got kind of from that point, you were doing some homeschooling, teaching English online. And obviously now you’re more involved with, you know, tour operators and helping them do some things. So help us kind of understand how you got to that point and what you enjoy most about it.
Emma Valahu (40:54.126)
Yeah, it was a big pivot. So I was doing kind of okay teaching online, I was getting students through this kind of third party platform, but then there is a limit, there is a cap into how much you can actually make. And it’s fine as a kind of supplementary secondary income in a family, but really I wanted to build a business that was doing a lot better and a lot more. And it’s quite difficult to do that in
Jason Elkins (41:21.093)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Valahu (41:23.566)
in that industry because people just don’t expect to pay hundreds per hour for your time, even though I would argue that it’s actually worth that, but it is just what it is. And so I worked with a coach who kind of helped me to pivot my business into working. Initially, I was working with international companies because I was in Romania.
working with international companies, and this is where my English then started to come in and my love for language and for words. I do have people just get really annoyed with me when I say, I wonder where that word comes from or things like this. And that was how I was able to bring that into my work was in working with international companies to help them to, it started off kind of,
teaching them how to teach their teams to work with international people. So it was like, I was still kind of teaching, but also work more on like the communication, I would say. So then the communication also kind of went into, well, what are you writing on your website that, you know, if you’re in Poland and you’ve got, your customers are coming from the States, is your website actually communicating in the best way for you? So the nice sort of…
Jason Elkins (42:34.746)
Hmm?
Emma Valahu (42:52.118)
moved into that. And eventually, after a series of little mini pivots and steps, I started ghostwriting for businesses, ghostwriting their kind of social media content. And
Jason Elkins (43:08.867)
Okay? Okay.
Emma Valahu (43:13.814)
Then that working with another coach, I then moved into working with them to build out their email systems, their email journey that they are taking their clients on and their customers on. And then the last bit was moving into the travel industry because I thought, I want to be doing something in an area that I actually enjoy, have some kind of passion for.
Jason Elkins (43:40.73)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Valahu (43:40.782)
and have something that I can actually relate to and have my own experiences to bring to this. I thought, yeah, why didn’t I think of this before? I will work with transformational, experiential travel businesses. And that’s what I do. Sorry.
Jason Elkins (43:46.735)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (43:56.987)
And it makes sense because so many of your clients, the operators maybe are an operator in Tanzania and 90 % or probably more of your business is coming from maybe the UK, the US, Canada, Australia, and other places that also communicate in English as well. So.
Emma Valahu (44:19.118)
Mm.
Jason Elkins (44:26.085)
But if you grew up in Tanzania, you might be an amazing tour operator and you may do great with your clients once they get there. But you got to convey that somehow. you know, if I grew up in Tanzania and I sit down and create a website and my English is pretty good and I, maybe it’s perfect English. Maybe I read it through a translator. Maybe grammatically it’s perfect, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s going to resonate.
because of cultural issues as well. that correct? mean, how important is the cultural aspect?
Emma Valahu (44:58.902)
It’s, I think today, but in my own experience of working with these founders, it’s not necessarily that. And what I have noticed, what I’ve found is that they have their passion for their business, for their country, for their retreat, for the experiences that they are providing.
They have these beautiful websites and they are lovely with the pictures and all of the, you know, they can they can employ, you know, copywriters to make their websites really compelling. And they do and they are. What I found is, is that that’s where it kind of finishes, that’s where it stops. And they’ve put up this beautiful website and
They then kind of sit back and kind of think, okay, so where are my bookings? Why are they not coming in? And what they are relying on primarily for 99 % of their business is people who have already been on their trips, referring them to their friends.
Jason Elkins (45:59.577)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (46:15.007)
yeah, yeah, I’ve heard that.
Emma Valahu (46:17.28)
It’s all word of mouth. Whenever, every time I speak to a founder and I ask them, you know, how are you finding your customers? Where are they coming from? You know, what marketing are you using? Their primary marketing channel is word of mouth, which is great when it works, but it’s not something which is scalable. And it’s not something which is sustainable. And it’s not something that you have any control over. It’s not like a lever that you can push or pull when you need to.
because you can’t just, well, you can, but it’s not a good idea just to email all of your previous customers and say, hey, could you please refer me to all your friends?
Jason Elkins (46:55.749)
Things are kind of slow right now. Could you please send us at least one referral? And yeah, yeah, yeah.
Emma Valahu (47:00.814)
And I know that people do do that and they have, you know, referral links and they have all of these kinds of incentives for people to do that and that’s fine. But it is a rather risky basket to put all of your marketing eggs into, let’s say. And so they have this website which is not really bringing them in the inquiries or it’s bringing in the kind of everybody, you know, everybody in his dog and it’s just like.
tire kickers who are coming along and they’re not really the qualified people that they want on the calls who are inquiring. And they’re kind of trying the social media. So they’re trying to post on social media, which is driving the traffic to the website, but then it just disappears because there isn’t a mechanism to keep those people in your world once they’ve landed there. And that is the gap. And that’s why they have to keep relying on word of mouth because they…
The traffic is not the problem. Getting people to the website is not the problem. It’s grasping that curiosity, capturing that curiosity and starting that journey with that customer to the point where they then want to make that inquiry and building up that trust and that, you know, know you like you trust you path.
that people need before they’re going to go and spend two, three, $4,000, euros, pounds, whatever, on a trip. Nobody’s going to land on your website. And then the first five minutes things, oh yeah, I’m going to go, I’m going to spend $3,000 there. Where do I sign up? No, it takes many, many touch points. But unless you are creating those touch points, you are losing out and you just need to either drive much more traffic to your website.
Jason Elkins (48:36.603)
Where do I send my deposit?
Emma Valahu (48:53.326)
to capture, to rely on that 1 % who do do that, who do pull the trigger after one visit, or you rely on word of mouth. So that is what I help people do is to capture that interest while it’s there with a very high value offer. You’re helping them to solve a small problem, answer a nasty question that they’ve got in their mind, overcome their objections with a free offer. And I call it an email course or an email sequence, educational email course.
which then takes, starts them out on that journey. And then you are treating them like a valued customer from the moment they arrive into your world, rather than just saying, here, we’ve got this offer. We’ve also got this offer. Would you like this offer? Why haven’t you bought yet? Here’s a discount. Would you like this? Do you want a book now? That doesn’t work. You want to build the trust. You want to build the relationship. You want to build.
You want them to want to book for you, not because you’ve offered them 50 % off, but because they love what you are offering and they love you.
Jason Elkins (49:55.747)
And it’s surprising because I do a lot of consulting and website design stuff and have these conversations with tour operators. I’ve spent just through doing the podcast, I’ve gone to many, many, many tour operators websites. And sometimes I reach out using a contact us form, whatever, or I just see a sign up for a newsletter.
And I’m always kind of curious what people are doing. So quite often I’ll drop in my email address to sign up for newsletter. I’m pretty sure I never hear from them again. I like, and I don’t think most people will sign up for newsletter in the first place. If it’s just join our mailing list. I don’t, I don’t see that as a really good idea just to do that. But when I do it and I, I don’t get any sort of email, I don’t hear anything. Maybe six months later, I might see one.
Emma Valahu (50:26.153)
Hahaha
Jason Elkins (50:52.493)
newsletter pop in that says, geez, it’s been a while, but we finally published a newsletter and then I don’t hear from them again in a long time. So that’s just a missed opportunity.
Emma Valahu (50:59.146)
Another three months. It’s such a missed opportunity. It’s such a missed opportunity. And that is what I try to convey and to educate my audience on is that you are email, email converts, sorry, email provides the highest ROI of all of the marketing channels.
stats say, and I’m not making this up, it’s out there, you can go and check it, that for every one dollar or whatever that you spend on email marketing, you get back on average either 35, some places will tell you it’s $42 in return. It’s a massive ROI. And people are treating email as a kind of an afterthought. They have their box right at the bottom of their homepage hidden in the footer.
And it says, you know, join our mailing list, stay updated. It’s like, why would I want to stay updated with offers? That’s not really a very, it’s not really a very good incentive. And the first thing I say to people is if you just want to get more people onto your email list, just move that form to the top of your homepage, put it up here so that people actually see it and they find it they think, you know, I’m here. Okay, I’ll put in my email address.
That’s going to give you a massive bump in subscribers right from the start because nobody is going onto your website saying, gosh, I wonder where their email sign up form is and scrolling to the bottom. No, if they see it, they might put in their email. But if you hidden it, I’m not going to.
Jason Elkins (52:34.021)
But I think you’re, yeah, and I think you’re right. What I hear you saying is give them some sort of value. Don’t I, I don’t know. I’m just thinking, Gerald, I don’t want to just ask, Hey, give me your email address. Why? What am I going to get in return?
Emma Valahu (52:46.808)
Well, that’s exactly that’s the second point. So the first thing is make sure people can actually find your form because that is just going to give you a massive bump in subscribers for a start. The second thing is give them something that is worth their email for because we are drowning in emails. We are drowning in newsletters. Nobody wants your newsletter. Nobody really wants your offers, but that’s
you know, they might think, maybe in the future, you know, if you’re offering something good. But if you can offer them something free, really high value in return for their email address and their return for their attention, they’re basically paying you in attention and in their email address, giving you permission to actually send them something. Then that is a far
higher and more kind of premium service that you are offering them than give me your email address and I’m going to randomly send you emails whenever I feel like it. What’s in it for me? Why do I want that?
Jason Elkins (54:00.335)
Who knows what those emails are gonna be about or when you’re gonna get them or.
Emma Valahu (54:03.246)
Yeah, well it’s usually updates and special offers and discounts and you know the latest secret. Yeah, yeah.
Jason Elkins (54:11.801)
Well, I think that’s the implication. The implication would be that you and I can sit here and think that’s what a newsletter is probably gonna look like. But then you and I also had a lot of conversations with tour operators that haven’t sent a newsletter in two and a half years and they’ve got an email list of 7,000 people. they’re frantically looking for somebody to manage their Google ads.
Emma Valahu (54:21.614)
Who knows?
Emma Valahu (54:33.23)
Or sometimes a lot more than that. And I’m thinking, what are you waiting for?
Jason Elkins (54:41.723)
They’re like, hey, we’re not getting good return on our Google ads. We need to do more Google ads and da da da da da. We’re not getting bookings on the website. Well, they’ve got a database with 7,000, 10,000, 15,000 email addresses of people that actually were willing to give them their email address for nothing in return. yeah, there’s a missed opportunity. What kind of resistance do you get when you have conversations like this? mean, why do you think that?
Emma Valahu (54:42.41)
Exactly.
Emma Valahu (54:59.554)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (55:12.507)
tour operators or people in this space sometimes are resistant to follow through and do more email marketing. What’s the thing that gets in the way?
Emma Valahu (55:25.24)
think there are a couple of things. I think the first one is that we have kind of been lied to that if we send people emails, especially if we send more than once a week, heaven forbid, that we are spamming people. This is spam. And I hear this a lot when I try to encourage my clients even, I think, you really need to be sending more than once.
a week. Sometimes they’re only sending once a month. And I’m saying, you want to be sending, well, sometimes less than that. But I’m saying you want to be sending at least once a week and actually more than that. And they’re just like, no, I can’t do that because I don’t want to spam. I don’t want to be coming across as spam. So that’s the first. And the second thing is that I think it’s it’s to do with the the kind of world that we have
Jason Elkins (55:58.063)
Sometimes less than that, yeah.
Emma Valahu (56:24.398)
we’re all exposed to, we’ve all been told that Google ads or Facebook ads or LinkedIn ads or whatever have got a high return and they work. in this kind of digital world, we think, oh, well, that’s what to do. We grew up with advertising. So yeah, if you want to find more customers, you advertise.
No, we it makes a lot of sense to advertise as that’s how you’re going to increase your business. And so email has become this kind of second cousin or kind of like, you know, the one that you just you don’t really want to talk about because it’s not a proven system. It’s not what it’s not the kind of traditional way to build a business.
traditional way is you make ads, you make flyers, you put ads on things. But email is something which I think we’re, we’re still really underusing and we don’t appreciate the value that it has for nurturing and educating and converting subscribers. And convert is a horrible word. I don’t like this word convert. It makes it sound like it’s completely like you’re doing something to somebody. But
conversion or transform, I much prefer the word transform, you are transforming them, you are helping them to do something which they want to do, they need some time to do it, they need to know who to trust, they need the answers, they need more information and that’s what you provide. You provide all of that and that is not more discounts, more offers, it’s part of it but there is so much more to it than that. So I think that is
Those are the two reasons that people have a lot of resistance to it and the spamming thing is a big one.
Jason Elkins (58:23.899)
think you’re right. think this, because we still hear it, but I remember maybe it seemed like it was five, 10 years ago, spam was such a big word. We just heard spam, spam, spam. I’m getting all this spam. I think we still use that word, but so we have a negative connotation. Like, especially when it’s our business and our passion, it’s hard to push the send button to a mailing list of 8,000 people.
Emma Valahu (58:34.23)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (58:52.503)
If you’re afraid that somebody in your database is going to say, this was spam. I didn’t want it. I’m upset. You know, cause these, these email marketing systems, they will tell you, know, you got one spam complaint, two spam complaints or whatever, or equally bad as the opt outs. We, I think, I don’t know, I’ll speak for myself, but you know,
Emma Valahu (59:02.158)
You
Jason Elkins (59:20.187)
I’ve had guests on the show, great conversations. We talk about their kids. We talk about that. And then I send out weekly updates with episode updates. And every once in a while I’ll get, I’ll see in my unsubscribed someone that I’ve had on the show as unsubscribed from my weekly updates. And, Oh my gosh, it’s just like this horrible, pardon me. It’s this emotional thing like.
Emma Valahu (59:39.086)
no, I’m just kidding.
Jason Elkins (59:49.803)
my gosh, they don’t love me anymore. They don’t like me anymore. And I create this whole story in my head about how they’re like, well, I got what I wanted out of being on Jason’s podcast. I don’t need to read his emails anymore. That it added up. I create this whole story in my head that is completely detached from other possible scenarios. Other possible scenarios are they’ve got some sort of software system that if they haven’t read an email in a while, it automatically gets unsubscribed.
Emma Valahu (59:53.858)
Yeah, absolutely.
Jason Elkins (01:00:19.419)
or they’ve got, they hired a virtual assistant that helps them clean out their inbox. And the virtual assistant doesn’t know that they run my show. So the virtual assistant is like, well, Bob is not, hasn’t read one of these emails in a while. So I’m going to go ahead and unsubscribe him from this list and free up his inbox. And so I get all emotional about it. So it makes me want to send fewer updates and I create this whole story in my head. And I suspect as a tour operator and I’ve been a tour operator as well. It’s kind of that same thing. It’s like.
Maybe you did an African safari for a couple, you know, three years ago and they wrote an amazing review and they sent you pictures of their honeymoon data and you’re so excited about it. You put them on their website and then someday you send out an email send and you see that they unsubscribe from your email. That makes it hard to push the next button, the next send button. What do you think? I mean, does this, I think that’s what a lot of it is.
Emma Valahu (01:01:10.74)
Yeah, no, it is a very emotional thing.
Jason Elkins (01:01:17.039)
Where if we’re a big company like Amazon or JetBlue or some big corporate business that sends emails once a week, they don’t care. They’re not emotionally tied. They can look at the numbers and say, you know what? Every time we send an email, we make money. We’re going to keep sending emails. We make money. So that a consultant like you, someone like me comes along and says, you need to send more emails. That’s how you’re to make money. Yeah, but it hurts.
Emma Valahu (01:01:23.297)
Hahaha!
No.
Emma Valahu (01:01:34.316)
Yeah, exactly.
Jason Elkins (01:01:43.545)
Every time I send an email, somebody ops out or unsubscribes. And so it’s hard to get past it, isn’t it?
Emma Valahu (01:01:51.19)
It is an emotional thing. And I think when you are a smaller business and you know these people personally, a lot of them, a lot of them you weren’t, but there will be some people in there who you do know personally, like you said. And it does feel like a rejection that, for sure, Jeff Bezos is not carrying two hoots with 3000 people unsubscribed from their mailing unless they probably don’t even look at those numbers, they don’t care.
Jason Elkins (01:02:04.09)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (01:02:14.639)
Yeah, they don’t care.
Emma Valahu (01:02:20.456)
And that’s the way to look at it, is to detach yourself emotionally from it to a certain extent.
Jason Elkins (01:02:25.957)
Do you think that maybe you do this for your clients, but I’m thinking, because I do some email automations and marketing for some of my clients as well, and I’m starting to think, geez, maybe I should encourage them not to get any sort of unsubscribe notices, not to look at unsubscribes, not even really, just like kind of, this takes a lot of trust, but just give me your list. I’ll send out the emails.
Don’t worry about who’s unsubscribing. Don’t worry about any of this stuff. I’ll look at it through an analytical, non-emotional lens. And then they can relax a little bit and let it, cause then they only see the ones that do book or respond in a positive way or send a referral or something like that. What do you think that would be good advice for a business operator?
Emma Valahu (01:03:16.822)
Yeah, I think part of my job is to actually help people to understand what’s happening when you send out an email and you get some unsubscribes. It’s going to happen. There are lots of reasons why it happens. Taking your African safari couple as an example. So they maybe they came onto your list at the beginning of the year and it took nine months of emails.
for them to actually book that safari. It took that long.
Jason Elkins (01:03:50.696)
Once a week, once a week for nine months, they opened your emails or they at least did unsubscribe, right?
Emma Valahu (01:03:57.046)
And then they bought the Safari and they loved it. And they went home and they told five of their friends. And those five friends, let’s say three of those also joined your mailing list. And it takes them nine months or longer or six months to buy. Let’s say only two of them do, but that’s two people who you wouldn’t have got if it hadn’t been for that person who was on your mailing list for nine months. Now the chances of that
initial couple wanting to go on the same safari with you again are low unless you have different offers and they loved you so much, which they probably do, that they want to buy another offer. But maybe they’re a couple who want to go and do something in another country. basically you
Jason Elkins (01:04:44.931)
Maybe, maybe they got divorced and every time you send them an email that reminds them, they’re like, I don’t like the memories. Right.
Emma Valahu (01:04:47.829)
HA HA!
Emma Valahu (01:04:52.11)
But there is a kind of there is a life cycle to it. You are not going to get people on. mean, some companies, some businesses, you do have people on there for life. But there is going to be a natural kind of life cycle when people have, you know, they have got all the value that they that they need and they no longer need that value from you anymore. And they’re going to leave. But that’s OK, because they’re not going to be your customer anymore. Probably.
And even if they do decide, you know what, actually we do want to go back, they’re going to come back because you’ve already built up that relationship and that rapport and they already trust you. So that’s one thing to think about it. The other way to think about unsubscribes is you said yourself, you go onto a website and you see the little box in the corner and you say, oh, okay, I’ll put in my email address. But really you are not ever.
going to buy from that company. If you’re really honest, think, okay. And that’s what happens. You will get some people, a lot of people maybe, who are on your email list, who are never gonna be your customers. Now, do you want to keep building your list? Do you wanna have 20,000 people on your list, but only 2,000 of those people will ever actually buy from you? That’s just a vanity metric. It means nothing if those people are not your ideal customer. You want those people.
to go. You want them to unsubscribe because you are paying more to convertkit or active campaign because you have got 20,000. That is costing you every month a lot of money. And if 15,000 of them are the wrong people, you want them out so that you can then focus.
Jason Elkins (01:06:39.631)
Well, you’re paying more money, you’re also, every time you send an email, and if you’ve got 15,000 people that don’t even open your emails because they have no interest in what you’re doing, it sends a bad message for deliverability. yeah.
Emma Valahu (01:06:48.878)
That is hurting your deliverability. It does. But also what I, this is where what I do also helps people is if you are offering the right free offer to people who land on your site, you’re going to attract the right person for your business and you’re going to repel the ones who you don’t want.
You don’t want the ones who are not interested in that Safari, let’s say, you know, they hate the heat. They hate sand. They don’t, you know, they’re not your ideal customer or, you know, they just can’t afford it. That’s okay too. But you don’t want them on your email list, but you do want to attract and get the ones on your email list who you really can serve. So this is a mechanism. This is an asset, which will also help you to
Jason Elkins (01:07:30.48)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Valahu (01:07:47.33)
get rid of the tire kickers, to get rid of the people, not to get rid of, that’s a really negative word, but to not even have them there in the first place, because you can’t help them. You can’t serve them. You’re never going to. They’re the wrong people. And you will have a far higher proportion of people who are far more likely to buy from you if given enough value and touch points and you build up that relationship over time. It’s not going to happen in the first five minutes.
Jason Elkins (01:07:54.82)
Yeah.
Emma Valahu (01:08:17.198)
It might not happen in the first five months, but it’s far more likely to happen if you have got that process, that system in place in your email. And that is not the definition of spamming is sending somebody an email every week, which is just saying, here’s another 20 % discount on this offer. To me, that is spam. Yes.
Jason Elkins (01:08:19.801)
I’m thinking, I mean.
Jason Elkins (01:08:38.971)
because it’s just junk as far as so really kind of what we’re speaking about. It’s also known the term is kind of a lead magnet. You know, what do you give somebody in exchange for their email address? And, you know, I’ve got examples that I’ve used in the past and done, but I love what you’re saying about using that lead magnet to kind of preselect or self help people self-select. So maybe I’m thinking of a random example is if you own a backpackers hostel in Bali,
Emma Valahu (01:08:59.052)
Yes, exactly.
Jason Elkins (01:09:09.529)
you probably don’t want to offer a lead magnet that’s like sign up for this and get our list of our top 10 luxury resorts on the north coast of Bali because it’s just not the right audience. And if you’ve got a luxury resort somewhere, you might not want to, it might not be 10 money saving tips for visiting Bali. Is that what you mean when you say, you know, use a lead magnet that helps selects?
Emma Valahu (01:09:18.688)
I’m sorry.
Emma Valahu (01:09:32.298)
Exactly. And this is where knowing your customer really, really well plays such an important role because you, I believe that you should be offering experiences and adventures and whatever you want to call them for a very narrow niche, a very narrow slice of the population.
So that everything, every message that you’re putting out there on your emails, on your social media posts, on your website is speaking directly to that person. So they know who they are and they know that you serve them. So when you are thinking about your lead magnet, the very first thing you’ve got to do is, well, who is it that I want to attract?
Jason Elkins (01:10:11.963)
All
Emma Valahu (01:10:23.33)
And that means knowing which countries do they live in, how old are they, what kind of things do they enjoy, what do they not enjoy, what time of year are they able to travel? If you are offering things and you’re trying to attract families, well, they can’t come through school holidays. So all of this kind of information is vital when you’re creating your lead magnet.
Jason Elkins (01:10:51.663)
Right. Because I…
Emma Valahu (01:10:52.558)
And then you want to think, well, what is the problem that I’m solving with my lead magnet? It’s not just, you know, the 10 top places in Bali. You can Google that. That’s not valuable. At least not valuable enough because people can Google it. Anything which I feel, anything which somebody could go and Google or somebody could just kind of ask chat for, chat GBT or whatever, is not valuable enough. Why would anybody give you their email address for that?
You have got to be real.
Jason Elkins (01:11:21.787)
Unless you do the work of consolidating, it doesn’t mean that everything in the lead magnet has to be super secret, but to consolidate it and bring value in a good way. So I don’t know. I’m just curious what you think. I’m thinking like trip planners. That’s a common one. Give us your email address. We’ll give you our trip planner where we’ve consolidated all this stuff. All that stuff is easily accessible on ChatGBT if you’re willing to take the time and effort.
Emma Valahu (01:11:49.294)
But what would be even more valuable would be, let’s say for example, we’ll stick with the, well, let’s take another country, another kind of trip. Let’s say that you want to go to, I don’t know, to Costa Rica to go surfing, let’s say. Now, if you were thinking about this, you might be thinking, okay, well, do I need to be able to actually kind of like surf before I do this? Is this a prerequisite? Do I have to?
I need previous experience to do this. Is it, I’ve heard that, you know, you’ve got a wet season. Well, I don’t really want to come when it’s raining. Well, if your green season, which is what Costa Rica calls their wet season, is actually wonderful and it’s people are missing out because they’re not coming during that time, then that is something you could educate people on. You could say, well, you know, here are five really good reasons why you should come during these months.
rather than those months. So there are lots of questions and I’d say like inner objections that people have that they kind of put in the way of actually stopping them from booking or inquiring. So that’s one way.
Jason Elkins (01:13:05.292)
It’s a juggling act. It’s a little bit of a juggling act because on one sense you want to answer their questions on your website, both for discoverability, SEO, and AI stuff. So you want to answer your questions on the website. it’s almost like what we’re discussing is hold back a little bit in exchange for the email address. So how do you balance that out?
Emma Valahu (01:13:29.998)
Well, let’s say, think about the last time that you wanted to do, any kind of trip. I don’t know if you’ve booked a trip recently, but if you look at me or even, okay. Let’s say, know, if you, anything where you have more than one vendor, more than one place that you could go to get this.
Jason Elkins (01:13:40.205)
Yep. All the time. Not, not quite the types of trips that we’re talking about, you know, cheap Airbnb and, you know, airplane tickets.
Emma Valahu (01:13:59.982)
Let’s say you’re booking that you want to go to on a safari or a circuitry. You’ve probably got about 25 different browser windows open on your website, your your desktop. Yeah. Because you’re doing your research, you’re doing your homework. You’re trying to find out which one offers the best deals or has the best itineraries or whatever. And then, you know, you look at your watch or you look at the time, I’ve got to go and make dinner, got to walk the dog and whatever.
Jason Elkins (01:14:09.05)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Valahu (01:14:26.636)
Are you going to remember everything that was on all of those websites? Are you going to remember any single one of those? Probably not, because they all look very similar and they’re all offering very similar experiences. And I know there are differences. Yes, I know. But for somebody who’s just spent half an hour looking or an hour or whatever, looking at all of these, it’s all just become a kind of a fuzz, a haze of information.
Jason Elkins (01:14:32.219)
Yeah.
Emma Valahu (01:14:54.744)
So you can have all of this on your website, but you can bet that all your competitors have also got it on their website, but they’re probably person looking at them is not going to actually remember or be able to kind of join the dots of what all of that means. So you can have information that is on your website, but you put it into a free offer, package it up into a free offer and you expand on it and you give them steps or tips or something which they can then.
take that information and then make their own decisions based on that.
Jason Elkins (01:15:29.179)
right and it’ll and it’ll show up in their inbox and they can read it when they’re ready when they’ve got time and they don’t have to remember to go back and look for it right you know one of the things that came up as I was listening to you was you know when I get ready to because I’ve been traveling full-time for four years and when I get ready to go to the next place you know what I do is just about every evening as I lay down and go to bed I I search for YouTube videos and I’ll sit there and watch a YouTube video about the next place I’m going like almost every night
Emma Valahu (01:15:38.232)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (01:15:59.355)
for a week or two or however long it is until I get there. So a good, know, for people like me, it might be the lead magnet is, we’re gonna send you a new video every day. You know, a series of videos about Costa Rica, about surfing in Costa Rica, so that every day you’ll get a little dose of what to expect on your trip to Costa Rica or whatever and you…
So I get a little 10 minute video every day. I don’t have to go to YouTube and search anything. I just get an email and say, this is perfect timing because this is what I do. So if you identify your customer as somebody like that, you mentioned how much research you did about homeschooling. This may be good example. You did so much research about homeschooling. So you go to website that talks about homeschooling and they say, hey, give us your email address and we’re going to send you a series of 12.
Emma Valahu (01:16:31.906)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Valahu (01:16:46.766)
expected.
Jason Elkins (01:16:57.359)
YouTube videos, whatever, about the top 12 things to know about homeschooling before you make a decision or whatever, right?
Emma Valahu (01:17:03.242)
Exactly. what the five top five mistakes that newbie homeschoolers make when they’re first starting on this journey. That would be valuable because you don’t want to make those mistakes.
Jason Elkins (01:17:15.875)
Right. maybe I don’t want to, maybe it’s on your website. Maybe, maybe there’s a link right there. can sit in there, watch it on your website, but maybe I’m busy. I got 28 tabs open and it’s just like, Hey, just give us your email to us. We’re going to send this to you. You can watch it whenever you want type of thing. Right.
Emma Valahu (01:17:26.19)
Yeah.
Emma Valahu (01:17:31.362)
And when you decide you want to go, you’re ready, nine months have passed and you want to actually invest this money in this trip or in this homeschooling or whatever it is, the company or business that’s going to be top of mind that you’re going to go with is the one who took the time and bothered to actually inspire you along the way to help you make this decision, who offered you a lot of value. I know this
Jason Elkins (01:17:43.451)
Where are you gonna go?
Emma Valahu (01:18:01.068)
home gets bandied about a lot, know, this value. value is like something other than
I would say that value is like I’ve learned something from this. It’s not just that I am inspired by, you you’ve sent me your latest offer and it’s, yeah, it’s great. It’s lovely. I would love to do that. But have you actually, you know, in this journey that you’ve taken me on in these last few months or weeks, whatever, how have I actually transformed in any way and have we built a relationship up? And you are the one I’m going to remember when I get my credit card out. The competitors who didn’t do that.
Jason Elkins (01:18:13.893)
Yeah.
Emma Valahu (01:18:40.898)
You’re not going to remember those people. So.
Jason Elkins (01:18:43.429)
You know, the term that comes up when you say all this is influencer. There’s a lot of talk about the word influencer out there. And there’s a couple of ways to be an influencer. One is just to post stuff and help people find it and follow you. Or you just become an influencer by connecting with somebody and influencing them by sending them useful stuff. That’s, that’s going to, so you can be an email influencer. That’s a new term we should call. I maybe that already exists.
Emma Valahu (01:19:04.963)
Yes.
Emma Valahu (01:19:10.372)
I like that.
Jason Elkins (01:19:11.749)
but it’s where it’s like, you know, a proactive influencer, like, Hey, we’re actually going to take active, make it easy for you to get the information. don’t know. Anyway, I’m just rambling, but, all right. So many, so many things, our, listeners that are in tourism and trying to figure out how to get more clients is definitely going to benefit from this big time. Anybody that’s in business, probably going to benefit anybody that’s interested in homeschooling English teaching online.
Emma Valahu (01:19:22.99)
That’s a good term, I like that.
Jason Elkins (01:19:41.423)
We discussed a bunch of different things. I’m curious though, before we wrap it up, because I want to be respectful of your time. I appreciate you coming in and sharing your time with us. But before I wrap up, what did I forget to ask you? Emma, what do you wish I would have asked you? Or what do you want to make sure our listeners know about you, life in general, Romania, emails, before we wrap up?
Emma Valahu (01:19:43.246)
We’ve gone around.
Emma Valahu (01:20:07.49)
I think we’ve quite a lot. We’ve covered more than I thought we were going to, going down the homeschooling education route. I could talk about that all day. I’m not sure that there’s anything that I think we’ve learned.
Jason Elkins (01:20:10.763)
you
I know.
Jason Elkins (01:20:24.187)
All right. You think it’s something we’ll come back and have another conversation. Cause I know there’s a lot left inside of, inside of your brain. And I appreciate you sharing, sharing that with us. we’re going to have a link right in the show notes so people can reach out to you and, connect with you if, you know, if they want to figure out how did they, what do they do with this email list of people that they’ve been afraid to email for the last six months and see how we can.
Emma Valahu (01:20:33.336)
You
Emma Valahu (01:20:39.214)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (01:20:52.483)
turn some of that into money because that’s what it is. mean, we can talk about however we want. Money is value. You know, we can measure a bunch of different ways and see if you can help them figure out how to get more, you know, transform, not convert, transform more lives because that’s why we’re all doing this.
Emma Valahu (01:21:13.966)
transform and not spamming. Not spamming, we’re transforming. Yeah. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:21:16.547)
Yes, absolutely. do me a favor Emma, please don’t opt out of my emails. I just told you how much that hurts.
Emma Valahu (01:21:25.666)
I won’t.
Jason Elkins (01:21:33.835)
I know that and I know that, it also helps me with my clients because I get it when they’re like, I don’t want to send too many emails, too many emails. I get it. It’s because it hurts when people unsubscribe opt out. And if you can remove that from the equation, maybe you have your email person or someone on your team that. You know, can just do that, remove that emotional part.
Because like you said, that couple that was in your, on your mailing list for nine months, you know, you’re upset that they opted out after three years. So you’re focused, you’re focused on them opting out after three years, instead of focusing on. If you had not been sending them emails every week, they may never have booked the trip. may never probably never would have referred other people to you. So that’s there’s like 90, 98 % plus 2 % negative.
Emma Valahu (01:22:08.481)
Ha
Emma Valahu (01:22:11.819)
Exactly.
How long will they move?
Emma Valahu (01:22:24.696)
I’m-
Emma Valahu (01:22:28.814)
In fact, there’s no negative. There is no negative. Yeah, it’s all positive. The only reason you want to be worried about unsubscribed is if you are just sending a load of spam, a load of things which are just not valuable, not helping people, and people are unsubscribing for that reason, then yeah. And if you increase those emails that frequency, then more people will unsubscribe. But I’m on mailing lists where people send me an email every single day.
Jason Elkins (01:22:29.145)
You got to quit focusing on the two per. There’s no negative. That’s not a good word, but you know what I mean? Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:22:48.665)
Yeah. But,
Emma Valahu (01:22:58.796)
And I haven’t unsubscribed because I knew that’s what I was signing up for.
Jason Elkins (01:23:02.917)
Well, there’s that and I remember someone at some point we were having a conversation around kind of email list building and all that stuff. And they said, look, if they’re interested in what you have to say or interested in what you offer, they’re not gonna be upset to see your emails. They’re interested. And if they’re not interested, who cares if they’re not interested in you?
Emma Valahu (01:23:24.942)
They’ll live. Exactly. They’ll live there.
Jason Elkins (01:23:29.497)
Who cares if they unsubscribe? Who cares if they subscribed on Tuesday and they unsubscribed on Thursday? That’s not a reflection of who you are as a person or your value in the world. So interesting, an interesting conversation, yeah.
Emma Valahu (01:23:42.319)
I’ll just leave you with this little story about unsubscribes. had a client I’ve been working with for quite a long time and we took a little break of sending emails because we were changing email service providers and changing some things around and it was about two months where we didn’t send anything. And he got emails from his subscribers saying, what’s happened? Where are your newsletters? And that gave him such a boost of…
Jason Elkins (01:24:04.923)
yeah.
Emma Valahu (01:24:11.2)
wow, people really are sitting there on a Saturday waiting for my newsletter and they notice I stopped. So there you go. People want to hear from you. They’ve given you their email address. They want to hear from you.
Jason Elkins (01:24:24.793)
Yeah, that’s a really, really good example. And actually it reminds me of, I’ve had this happen a few times, but just recently I had got on, I actually had interviewed someone way in the past for a different project I was working on and was really intrigued by what she was doing. She was doing like digital nomad coaching and I was on her list and I would get an email every week and then nothing. It just got super quiet. I didn’t think that much about it.
until all of a sudden, actually fairly recently, I got an email from her and it reminded me, I’d wondered about her. I kind of wondered what had happened. Did I unsubscribe? No. I don’t even know that I’m opening her emails, but I like her. I’m interested in her. Someday I might, I just, so I don’t unsubscribe. I don’t necessarily open them either, but I notice when there’s an absence. So yeah, it’s…
Emma Valahu (01:25:00.526)
anymore
Emma Valahu (01:25:16.098)
when they’re not going in.
Jason Elkins (01:25:20.719)
I’m sure there is such thing as overdoing it, but it also depends on what the context is. So it’s probably why it’s great to work with somebody like you that’s not emotionally tied to it. Because if it’s your business, you’re emotionally tied to it. It’s really easy to think, my gosh, this is too much. I shouldn’t be doing this. I don’t want to offend anybody or whatever.
Emma Valahu (01:25:28.758)
It depends what the content.
Emma Valahu (01:25:42.254)
As long as whatever you’re sending is helping them to take a little step forward or to think about something in a new way, you know, what we call value, you can interpret that in many different ways. There’s no reason why people wouldn’t want to hear from you. If you’re just sending them a load of fluff, yeah, people will unsubscribe. And that’s the trick. It’s making sure that what you are sending them is something that they actually read and take away and think, yeah, that’s…
Jason Elkins (01:26:02.223)
Yeah, because there is a lot of junk.
Emma Valahu (01:26:11.522)
That’s made me think or that’s.
Jason Elkins (01:26:11.983)
I want to do, I really want to get a client that does really the culinary type of stuff. Really want to get a client that does that and do like a really cool, like recipe type of lead magnet, you know, like people, cause I think people that go on culinary trips are interested in food and maybe it’s like, they’re thinking about going to Columbia for example, and it’s every week or two, we send a new recipe of stuff that you can try at home.
Emma Valahu (01:26:20.098)
Mmm.
Jason Elkins (01:26:41.707)
know traditional Colombian food. We help you figure out how to source it and get it and maybe even a video or something like that because if you’re thinking about going to Colombia and you’re into food, what a great laid back, all right? So anyway.
Emma Valahu (01:26:44.536)
Yeah.
Emma Valahu (01:26:49.965)
No.
Emma Valahu (01:26:54.21)
Yeah, but that would be the idea. That’s what I talk about about the niche. If your business is all around culinary trips and culinary experiences, then that would be the perfect…
Jason Elkins (01:27:06.745)
It makes sense. If you do trips, if you do trips that every day on the itinerary, it says meals are on your own, might not work as well. anyway, Emma, really appreciate it. Great conversation. I know we chatted for quite a while. So anybody that’s still listening, and I trust there’s many, just click on the link, connect with Emma, and see what kind of connection you can create with her beyond what we’ve already started today. Thanks, Emma. I appreciate you.
Emma Valahu (01:27:19.31)
I
Yeah.
Emma Valahu (01:27:29.646)
the package.
Great, thank you so much for having me, Jason. Bye.
Jason Elkins (01:27:35.792)
good day.

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