Guest Bio
Eva Westerling is the co-owner of Berber Adventure Tours Morocco. Originally a radiologist, Eva spent many years working in global hospital consulting, which took her to countries such as Iraq, India, and Chile. After deciding to take time off to travel, she returned to Morocco and has remained based there ever since. Her deep connection to the country, especially the desert regions, shapes her approach to life and travel. Eva manages many of the operational aspects of Berber Adventure Tours, including tour design, calculations, marketing, and customer communications.
Show Summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Eva about her unique journey from a medical career to becoming a key figure in Morocco’s adventure tourism scene. They discuss how living in the desert has changed her perspective on life, focusing more on presence and simplicity rather than material concerns. Eva shares stories from her extensive travels throughout Morocco, including favorite spots like Essaouira, Tetouan, and the vast desert around Merzouga.
Eva also talks about the challenges and rewards of designing tours that explore lesser-known areas, offering travelers a chance to experience Morocco beyond the typical tourist paths. She reflects on her partnership with Hassan, whom she met on a desert trek, and how their shared passion for adventure informs the tours they create.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Transitioning from a medical career to travel can open new personal and professional pathways.
- ✓ Living in Morocco’s desert offers a different set of priorities centered on enjoying the moment rather than consumerism.
- ✓ Designing tours off the beaten path provides travelers with more authentic and unique experiences.
- ✓ Personal connections with guides and locals enrich the travel experience and tour offerings.
- ✓ Summers in Morocco can be intensely hot, influencing seasonal travel patterns.
- ✓ Behind-the-scenes work such as tour planning and marketing is crucial to creating successful travel experiences.
- ✓ Communication and responsiveness are key components of excellent customer service in adventure travel.
- ✓ Extensive firsthand knowledge of a country enhances the quality of customized tours.
- ✓ Experiencing Morocco with a local perspective reveals cultural nuances not found in typical guidebooks.
- ✓ Collaborative partnerships in travel businesses can blend different skills and insights for better outcomes.
What You’ll Find on Berber Adventure Tours Morocco
- ✓ Customized adventure tours that explore Morocco’s deserts and lesser-known regions.
- ✓ Itineraries designed to avoid typical tourist routes, focusing on authentic experiences.
- ✓ Expert knowledge of Moroccan landscapes, culture, and practical travel logistics.
- ✓ Personal communication and support throughout the booking and travel process.
- ✓ A balance of adventure and cultural immersion, reflecting the owners’ deep local connections.
- ✓ Opportunities to experience Morocco’s diversity from coastal towns to desert landscapes.
Learn more about Berber Adventure Tours Morocco and connect with Eva at:
https://berberadventuretours.com
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Jason (00:00.84)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. So happy to have each and every one of you back today, and I’m also very excited to have our guest today. We’ve got Eva Westerling. She is the co-owner of Berber Adventure Tours in Morocco. Eva, welcome to the show. Happy to have you here.
Eva Westerling (00:19.308)
Thank you so much, Jason. Happy to be here.
Jason (00:22.038)
This is gonna be a super fascinating conversation. I know a little bit of your story already, but I intentionally did not ask you to share everything with me the first time we spoke because I I want it to be new for me as well as our audience. So thank you so much for that. And before we jump into kind of your story to figure out how you got from where you were to where you are now, let’s just give our listeners kind of a chance to understand what is it that you do at Berber Adventure Tours in Morocco?
Eva Westerling (00:49.246)
so our main focus is on desert tracking, camel tracking, desert hiking for small groups. It’s mostly private groups. every once in a while we do group tours. and we also organise custom trips all around Morocco with a focus of off the beaten path locations. We try to support as many women as possible on the way. so yeah, I guess that sums it up.
Jason (01:17.13)
Very cool. So when you said we try and support as many women as we can along the way, are we talking about the local women that work in the communities, as well as your your guests? I’m sure you’ve got quite a few women that come on the trips as well. But what do you mean by that when you say we try to support the women?
Eva Westerling (01:33.768)
no, I mean locals. we try to work with as many w female owned businesses. sorry, now my anti antivirus is popping up. You will have to edit that out. So sorry. All right. well anyways. so yeah, we we try to work with as many
Jason (01:46.07)
That that happens. It’s it’s a no, it’s a it’s an unscripted call. You just proved to everybody that that we don’t cut things out. It’s no what no no big deal. But so anyway, so yeah, go ahead.
Eva Westerling (02:02.901)
Women along the route, women owned restaurants, hotels, guides that work in Morocco. It’s sometimes hard to find. Like we haven’t really found a female driver yet that speaks either good English or German. so yeah, it’s it’s still a very male dominated yeah, tourism is very male dominated in Morocco, so
Jason (02:13.033)
Yeah.
Eva Westerling (02:31.487)
I’m but I’m trying, I’m always on the lookout, scouting for female businesses everywhere to put them on my list.
Jason (02:39.061)
Very cool. Do you I’m just curious, and I this you know, we’re not here to have a political conversation or ch change cultures and societies, I guess. Well, maybe we are. But do you get pushback from the male operators in the area sometimes if you do have female guides and stuff like that? Do you get some resistance around that or?
Eva Westerling (02:59.049)
No, I don’t think so. I at least I’ve never felt that. I think they are also happy to support that. They n especially the younger ones, they know it’s changing. it’s it’s a bit harder I mean we d we don’t just work with women in like proper businesses, we also support the local nomad families or my friends in Mezuka where where I live. so for example if we have
Jason (03:06.503)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Eva Westerling (03:26.025)
a family coming on a tour with us, we offer them to go for either a cooking experience or just for a couscous family dinner to one of my friends’ houses. And that is only possible if like it’s if it the the woman of the family is there, like our guests. They we once had a a father and son combo. We couldn’t do that with them. Like they are not allowed to enter
Jason (03:43.721)
Mm-hmm.
Eva Westerling (03:52.672)
a female environment without his his wife present. So so it is a bit tricky. It’s no issue at all for for like solo female travelers or mother mothers with their children or like a full family. That’s fine too. At least if I also come along for it. But like solo male guests we cannot put in those spaces. That’s just not done.
Jason (03:56.636)
Okay. okay. All right. That’s interesting.
Jason (04:12.202)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (04:18.961)
Okay, even even if her husband is in the kitchen, I didn’t mean I say her, meaning the Moroccan woman that is giving the class or doing it. So even if her husband’s in there, it doesn’t matter. Your clients can’t be there unless they’re with their female partner or a female female partner. Is that right? Just wanna make that’s in that’s interesting. All right.
Eva Westerling (04:35.169)
Yes. Yeah, exactly. But it’s like it’s so I mean it is still very traditional and conservative. Like even if my partner like comes looking for me, he would never knock on their door. He would call me to come outside and meet him in the street. You know, like it is I mean we w we live in a very rural area where everything is still really, really traditional and
Jason (04:53.333)
okay. interesting.
Eva Westerling (05:01.333)
I think the only like females he talks to that are not from his family would be the nomad women if their husbands are out with the animals. Because then they don’t have a choice and they do wanna accommodate us, they do want the news and of course we we also always carry some sort of gifts, like we we bring some fresh fruit or, you know, things that that are hard to get for them. so yes, they they will come out and speak but
Jason (05:07.751)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (05:15.656)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Eva Westerling (05:28.267)
I think now the ones that know that I speak some of the local language, they will still come and talk to me and not necessarily to him, or at least not at first.
Jason (05:32.405)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (05:36.69)
Okay. All right. No, I I get that. You know, I I do want to ask you because when you when I asked you what it is you do, you mentioned kind of desert hikes, desert walks, desert camelback riding. I don’t want to say it wrong. You’re gonna correct me if I do. But so when I imagine that, okay, walking in the desert, I what’s that like? Because there’s I think a different people can imagine different things. It’s like, well, why would I want to go walk around in the desert, isn’t it?
hot and just a bunch of sand, but I suspect there’s some cool stuff to see along the way. So why don’t you tell our listeners w what what that’s like walking in the desert in Morocco.
Eva Westerling (06:15.213)
So it’s a lot different to what most people imagine. Like most people think they will be in the sand for five days. And that’s just that’s just not what happens. And also nobody wants that. Like that’s the hardest thing to do, to walk an hour in the soft sand. Like i I mean everybody’s done that at the beach I’m sure. so we we have a few kind of standard routes that we do where we do get sand dunes.
Jason (06:22.483)
Yeah, yeah.
Jason (06:32.947)
Yeah.
Eva Westerling (06:44.575)
at some point or another, sometimes even once a day. but most of the hiking happens in what’s called the Hamada. Like it’s like a rocky desert. It’s like flat and there’s stones of different sizes. so it there’s no path. We never like walk on path. So you always have to like find your way over rocks and through the sand and over I mean at the moment it’s pretty green because the last winter was so rainy. So you know like you just walk
Jason (06:44.628)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (06:54.389)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (07:11.893)
Mm-hmm.
Eva Westerling (07:13.789)
over bushes and and grasses and I don’t know. and there’s acacia trees and on one of the routes they re-wilded some ostriches and like big antelopes or gazelles or something with like big horns and it’s so fun to come across those and it’s it almost feels like you’re in the Serengeti. I don’t know. It’s really cool.
Jason (07:29.109)
Okay. huh.
Jason (07:37.981)
Yeah.
Eva Westerling (07:39.578)
and then we have like one place that we go to a lot, especially with smaller kids. it’s like a small well it’s it’s silly to call it a mountain, it’s like a hundred fifty meters high, but it feels like a mountain and and it’s in the middle of of nowhere. and it’s full of fossils. Like the the rocks are full of fossils of like really, really old water underwater creatures.
And half of it is covered by sand, so you can, you know, run down the sandy side and climb up, finding tons of fossils along the way. And it’s really fun and y everybody loves it. And even people who are not interested really get excited once they find them. And it’s it’s really fun. So yeah, that’s kind of wha what we do. We we s we on the camel tracking trips, we hike with camels.
Jason (08:22.888)
okay. Very cool.
Eva Westerling (08:35.253)
You can r you can book an extra riding camel but mostly we walk with them. So they carry all our luggage, the tents, the food, the water. so we just have to carry our own drinking water for the day and maybe a few snacks. And then we’ll walk for, I don’t know, two hours, have a snack break, walk another two or three hours and depending on temperatures, usually we just set up camp h under a tree somewhere, have some lunch and then the afternoon is just relaxing and
reading or journaling or whatever and then for sunset you find a nice little mountain or sand dune or something to enjoy the view and then there’s dinner and a bonfire and the guys will bake bread for the next morning’s breakfast in the sand and it’s just I don’t know, it’s great. There’s no phone reception, you know, nothing goes bing bing bing all day. Everybody’s just really in the moment and
Jason (09:30.158)
how nice.
Eva Westerling (09:32.147)
It’s a proper digital detox, so yeah.
Jason (09:37.757)
Is it is it I’m sure there’s a mix is and I don’t want to overgeneralize, but as far as your groups well, two parts. One is do you do mixed groups or are these all private groups or how d how does that work?
Eva Westerling (09:51.306)
so ninety n ninety five, ninety nine percent is private because people contact us with a date in mind that they want to do. and they are either couples of families or group of friends. we do have a New Year’s Eve hike every every year. It’s a three day trip that includes New Year’s Eve. that is open for anyone to book. so that’s usually
Jason (09:58.911)
Okay.
Eva Westerling (10:19.777)
Yeah, the one group trip of the year. But every now and then we get inquiries from people who are open for other people to join them on their trip because it would reduce the price. and so we put those as group trips on our website as well. So sometimes we we and they get lucky and we’ll find some other people interested in the same dates and then we’ll just throw them together. Yeah.
Jason (10:27.231)
Okay.
Jason (10:39.573)
Okay. Okay. Does your does the typical client well maybe I should just ask you to describe the tick typical client because I’m a yeah, I think I’ll just do that. Or well, here, here’s where I’m going with this. Are these typically people that have done a lot of trekking trips other places? They’re really into walking and trekking and they think, ooh, I want to go to Morocco, so that’s why they book a trip like that? Or are they just people who just want to go to Morocco and are open to
Walking.
Eva Westerling (11:11.735)
I think maybe fifteen to twenty percent are the f the first kind you described, the ones that are into tracking and they wanna they come for the for the fitness aspect or the trekking aspect of it. the other eighty percent are people who just want to experience the desert up away from the mass tourism that we have around Mazoga. Like that’s really gone crazy in the last I would say five years, maybe since COVID. Like before that it was a lot crazy.
Jason (11:18.964)
Okay.
Jason (11:23.144)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (11:34.494)
Mm-hmm.
Eva Westerling (11:41.134)
Quieter, there were a lot less camps. Now it’s just masses of like jeeps and buses arriving every evening and they throw all the people on camels to cross the dunes and sleep in a camp and come back before sunrise to go back to Marrakesh. And th most of our clients are looking for the opposite of that. And we don’t have like there’s not that much of it around, especially not with an English or German website. So
Jason (11:55.18)
okay.
Jason (12:00.883)
Yeah, okay.
Eva Westerling (12:08.941)
in even if it takes them some searching because I mean we do rank well on Google but not necessarily on the other search platforms but they find us in the end. They say, I’ve I’ve searched for weeks and then I found you and I knew that w you would be exactly what I’m looking for and they are so happy and so yeah we we are we we’ve built kind of like a proper niche experience in our area and yeah
Jason (12:24.168)
Okay.
Eva Westerling (12:36.973)
It’s great. L w th we love it, they love it. What more can we ask for?
Jason (12:37.3)
Yeah.
Yeah. You you mentioned with the camel tracks, you mentioned, you know, having the camels carry the tents and and stuff like that and setting up camp. The non camel treks where you it’s just walking. Do you have a team or something that goes ahead? Set are these like camps that are just set up for that night or these regular fixed camps or what does that look like?
Eva Westerling (13:01.641)
for as so when we just go hiking we normally stay in a guest house. so we have like a three day trip that we sell a lot that leaves from Mezuka but involves a car ride for a around an hour to get further away. And then the car just drops us in the middle of nowhere and we have to walk to the guest house while the car brings all our luggage there. So
Jason (13:06.984)
Okay.
Jason (13:22.311)
Okay. Okay.
Eva Westerling (13:25.643)
And then we’ll arrive there for lunch, have lunch. it’s right next to another sand dune field that’s a bit smaller and much less known. so usually people just hang out there for for the afternoon, for sunset, and and you can choose if you want to sleep inside or if you wanna sleep in the dunes, either like just on a mattress or in a tent. we always bring those along.
Jason (13:39.178)
Okay.
Eva Westerling (13:51.348)
And depending on temperatures, it c could be much nicer to actually sleep outside. and then the second day we’ll just do like a r little round hike from there, walk into some like really cool hills with r great views over the whole area and then come back again for lunch and in the afternoon you can, you know, go sandboarding or something. And then on the last day we walk f only for an hour and a half and then
we stay in a small family home for lunch and we can actually w normally they serve us burber pizza. It’s like a filled bread that’s a very local specialty. And so we can watch them bake that in the traditional clay ovens. And a lot of people comment how that’s their favorite part of the whole trip, like getting in touch with the locals there, watching the like interacting with the women and
Jason (14:40.009)
Really? Yeah.
Eva Westerling (14:45.609)
So yeah, even if it’s a short day of hiking people really, really enjoy it as the end of their trip.
Jason (14:52.799)
Now are the guests because you mentioned the guest house where you stay a couple nights, and then the family home where you do the lunch and they make the you said Berber pizza, right? I I’m I’m hungry. That sounds good. I I love Moroccan food, by the way. I’ve had a few tijines in my life and some cookbooks and have not been to Morocco to eat it. So so when I hear you talk about the food, I’m gonna get excited. but anyway, my question was the guest house and this this area, like is the guest house in a sm
Eva Westerling (15:01.237)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Jason (15:21.255)
Small village or is it just a guest house in the middle of the desert? What is what does that look like? Help me understand what that might be like.
Eva Westerling (15:27.089)
so there is a we call them piste, like a gr like it’s just off road. But like an off road that’s a bit I mean after rains and floods it has to be created new but you know, like there’s a path that you can follow. so there’s this piece that goes along a riv dry usually dry riverbed and on one side is the riverbed and the other side are those sand dunes and there’s like th
Jason (15:35.125)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (15:41.884)
okay.
Eva Westerling (15:54.35)
three or four guest houses along that spread over seven kilometers or something. So when you’re there you don’t see or hear anyone else. so it feels very, very in the middle of nowhere, which is great. There’s also no light pollution. Like it’s the darkest place that we we have for proper you know star watching at night.
Jason (15:59.784)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Jason (16:15.539)
Yeah. Do the guests that go do you find a a lot of guests kind of live in the city, they maybe want their kids to experience that kind of isolation. Maybe they want to experience it ’cause they never have, or are these just naturally people that just like quiet places?
Eva Westerling (16:34.409)
I think it’s both. But a lot of people actually ask like is it possible to properly see the night sky? Like we wanna see the Milky Way, we wanna see the stars, we wanna see shooting stars. And of course that’s not possible all year round, like the Milky Way you can see in the fall, but in spring i it comes up at four in the morning and people just usually don’t get up that early or it gets light half an hour later, so that you know, for photographing it
Jason (16:58.176)
okay. Yeah.
Eva Westerling (17:03.211)
That’s just not a good time, so you should come in October if that’s your goal. but yeah, shooting stars I think every time I’m there I see them. Like you just look up for half an hour and you’ll see three shooting stars. It’s really amazing.
Jason (17:11.679)
Yeah.
Jason (17:15.801)
that’s that’s and and you mentioned sleeping I I what I heard you say was sleep on the sand dune. So that creates an image in my head because you know, I grew up hunting and camping and spending time outdoors and it wasn’t unusual for me to just lay down a sleeping bag on the ground and and sleep outside. is that kind of what it’s like? Do you have cots for them or are they literally just laying on the sand dune? Or what is that what does that look like?
Eva Westerling (17:43.31)
So w th we have those foam mattresses, like I don’t know, three, four centimeters thick, that you can just take wherever you want and you wouldn’t sleep on the dune because that’s just not flat enough, but like in between the dunes there’s usually flat areas that are great for that, and a little bit sheltered if it gets a bit windy. if like if it’s too close to summer, we recommend actually sleeping inside the tent because that’s the time of year where you know cr like the
Jason (17:47.082)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (17:56.457)
Right.
Eva Westerling (18:12.877)
Creepy crawlies come out where snakes and scorpions might be around. But like if you
Jason (18:14.847)
Well, that was the question I was g I was that was the question I was gonna ask you ’cause I knew somebody was listening to this, like, wait a bot, there’s there’s it’s the desert. There’s gotta be things that I don’t want climbing in my sleeping bag, but
Eva Westerling (18:25.451)
Yeah, but like November, December, January, February, I’ve never seen one. Like if you see them, it’s gonna be like September, early October, maybe April. But they’re very, very rare. Like in my seven years of spending a lot of time in the desert, I’ve seen I think three or four snakes, and only once man did I manage to get a photo of them. Normally they just they’re gone before you can properly focus on them.
Jason (18:53.257)
They don’t want to have anything to do with you, yeah.
Eva Westerling (18:55.693)
and scorpions like I think we’ve only seen two. Like they’re also they it’s very rare and they just disappear so quickly. I don’t know.
Jason (19:05.685)
Do your guests when given the opportunity, and again I’m sure there’s a variety of there’s a variety of people, but I’m curious, when your guests given the opportunity to sleep on a foam mattress in the desert, under the stars, on the ground, basically, like do most of your guests see that as an exciting opportunity, or is that something only a few people actually want to do?
Eva Westerling (19:29.325)
It’s actually the majority does it. I mean some say it’s too cold, they prefer to stay in the tent. But but no, I would say I mean sleeping in the room is something we do like after lunch for a bit of a lie down, you know. A lot of them actually want to sleep outside.
Jason (19:31.221)
Yeah.
Jason (19:45.556)
Uh-huh.
Jason (19:49.17)
Okay. That’s cool. And I suspect a lot of them have never done it before. I’m just guessing. I d I don’t know, I don’t know what kind of clients you get, but
Eva Westerling (19:50.572)
Yeah.
Eva Westerling (19:55.33)
Yeah, I th I’m sure. Yeah. I mean I don’t always I don’t always ask them that specifically, but yeah, I would I would assume that.
Jason (20:03.497)
Yeah, I would I would think so. Where mm pardon me, where do most of your clients come from? Are these you mentioned specifically German, obvious we haven’t really got to that part of your story yet, but you mentioned Ger German and English websites, so I’m guessing most of your clients probably come from German or English speaking countries, Europe. Do you get a lot a lot of people from North America as well, or where do they come from?
Eva Westerling (20:26.407)
so I think around sixty five percent are German speaking, so Germany, Switzerland and Austria. and then the rest is pretty much all over. Like North America is not a big big focus for some reason. I don’t know what there’s there’s the odd Americans or Canadians. we’ve had people from New Zealand, from lots of small countries in in Europe, so yeah.
Jason (20:32.039)
okay.
Jason (20:42.773)
Okay.
Jason (20:48.841)
Wait, y did you say
Jason (20:53.653)
Okay. I I heard you say the odd American and I thought, What are you talking about? We’re not odd. Maybe we’re a little odd, but I I do find Europeans are maybe a little bit more likely to you know, go spend time in Africa. It’s just easier for one. And it’s it’s just kind of a maybe a mindset thing around it.
Eva Westerling (21:12.883)
I think most Americans that come to Morocco do a way more luxurious experience. Like they hire a driver, they go to the nice hotels and, you know, have a pool every night and air conditioning, very important. we cannot offer air conditioning in our little mobile camps. so yeah. I mean the ones we did have were very adventurous, I have to say. Very outdoorsy people, so yeah.
Jason (21:37.77)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That’s it’s very cool. I guess I should I mean you’ve kind of mentioned the temperature, climate and stuff like that. I guess I w and air conditioning. I guess I need to ask what should people know about the weather? Because like I know when you and I spoke last week you said, Yeah, I’m gonna spend some time in Europe right now because it’s the summer and it’s very hot. So what should like
Do you guys do any business in the summer? I guess would be one question. And number two, when you’re doing business, what what should people typically expect? And we don’t have to go month by month. I just want to give people kind of an idea that might be thinking, there’s no way I could go to Morocco and do a desert trek because it’d be so hot. But I don’t think it’s always that hot, is it?
Eva Westerling (22:23.775)
No, it’s not always that hot. so we don’t do desert hiking or trekking in June, July or August. That’s just a straight up no because that’s like even at night it can be like thirty-five Celsius. Like I’m not sure what that’s in Fahrenheit, but like it’s s it’s hot. so normally we say our season starts mid-September and ends sort of mid-May for the for the desert experiences. in those
Jason (22:29.983)
Okay.
Jason (22:40.531)
Yeah.
Eva Westerling (22:53.855)
Like in the in the hotter parts of of that, we actually caution people. We we say you have to be okay with heat because it can still be hot and we will not cancel because of that. Like that’s on you. so please make sure that you have some experience with that before y you book early September hiking or something. and we did have clients who said, Yeah yeah we’ll we’ll we’ve
Jason (23:07.369)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jason (23:15.583)
Yeah, I think that’s smart. Yeah.
Eva Westerling (23:20.361)
had temperatures like that before in different places and were fine and they were. So, you know, like it’s that’s okay. but we also like we don’t ever promise fixed routes. Like we always keep it flexible and adjustable to the weather. So if it’s hot, you will get up at s like five thirty in the morning and finish your hike by eleven. And then you’ll just rest in the shade for the rest of the day. You know, like the when we’re just
Jason (23:25.566)
Okay.
Jason (23:35.573)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (23:42.868)
Okay.
Okay.
Eva Westerling (23:47.754)
Nobody wants that. Our crew will just stop working for us, I think, if we force them to do that. The camels are not happy to carry heavy loads when it’s that hot. so you know, like we need that sort of flexibility in terms of weather. the opposite would be winter, like from like early December to mid January. Usually it’s it is cold. The the nights can go down to almost freezing. So
Jason (23:53.087)
Yeah.
Eva Westerling (24:14.891)
Sleeping in a camp, you would have to bring a really good sleeping bag. You will you will need to be okay sitting by the fire in the evening feeling a bit cold because we don’t have that much wood, so there won’t be a huge bonfire, you know.
Jason (24:21.855)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (24:28.661)
So but that just makes everybody get a little closer, more connected. Yeah, yeah. That’s good.
Eva Westerling (24:31.541)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean there are people who are happy with that, but I also tell everyone because some people would not enjoy that so much, so they they need to know that, you know. And day temperatures at that time of year are usually nice. Like if you hike in a T shirt you’ll be fine. As soon as the sun’s gone you need your down jacket, basically. You know, like it’s the differences are just really like noticeable in winter. The best time is kind of
October, early November and February and March are usually good f four hour activities.
Jason (25:04.905)
Yeah, okay. And let’s talk a little bit about the I don’t know if you called them non trucking activities, but the other activities ’cause there are a lot of things to do and see in Rocco. So I’m curious, do a lot of the people that come if they come do a three day walk or a three or four day walk with you, are they likely to book other stuff as well? I assume. And and what like I’d love to chat a little bit about what other things there are to do.
Eva Westerling (25:30.43)
so some some of them do. A lot of them are very independent travelers though. So they rent a car and they drive on their own and they’ll just show up in in Mezuga the day of the or the day before the hiking starts. or in a different place if we’re hiking in other places. But we do get people who want like a good
Jason (25:38.804)
No, okay.
Jason (25:47.221)
Mm-hmm.
Eva Westerling (25:53.25)
guided or at least they book a driver wi with us and we book all the hotels for them and guides along the way for different experiences and then they might just have a one day desert experience with us where we do just a day hike or a picnic in an in a small oasis that’s really beautiful or a family day in Mezuka if they are family where we will spend time with my friends.
cooking and baking and shedding and working in the garden. They they just shadow the daily life basically. So it really depends on what they’re interested in and what kind of group they are. So lately we’ve had an increase in people with kids. I think because like I wrote a really like thorough blog post on if it’s safe to take kids into the desert and like just
Jason (26:16.627)
Mm-hmm. cool.
Jason (26:30.154)
Yeah.
Jason (26:42.389)
Mm-hmm.
Eva Westerling (26:44.681)
in April I went hiking with a family with a five year old boy. and they said they they actually researched so much and they ended up booking with us because of this blog post because they felt like I know what I’m talking about and I’m taking this serious seriously. I’m not just saying, yeah yeah no problem. I’m saying that could be a problem. And that’s how we deal with that, you know? So
Jason (27:01.397)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (27:05.713)
well let’s let’s let’s discuss that. You know, we could I mean we can always say, you know, go read the blog post or b but let’s touch on that real quick. What was the gist of your advice when it comes to doing the desert walks with kids?
Eva Westerling (27:20.893)
so first of all with like really small kids like five year olds we don’t do a three day programme. We’ll we’ll do day trips where they where we can be sure that a car is always near. We ca we could leave quickly if we needed to. the biggest issue c would be overheating, I think, like if it’s if it gets warm because kids are like they don’t sweat as much as we do. They don’t drink as much as we do. Like you constantly have to say, please take a sip of water, please take another sip of water
Jason (27:44.341)
Yep, yep.
Eva Westerling (27:48.439)
Please wear your turban. K you know, like don’t let the sun get on your head. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And
Jason (27:52.254)
And they’re s they’re small. They just they’re just small. The heat the heat moisture just leaves their body quick. Or not the heat, but yeah. Yeah.
Eva Westerling (27:57.558)
And they have all that energy, like they run up and down and around and they get so excited and it’s just crazy. And it’s so much fun. I love it. Like I love going on like those experiences with kids. Like they are so curious. They ask a million questions. a lot of the time the parents are apologetic for that and I’m like, No, I love it. I love curious kids. I don’t wanna have to like actively entertain them. I want them to be entertained, but I want them to lead that, you know? So
Jason (28:09.973)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (28:24.595)
Yeah, yeah. It it is it is easier sometimes with kids. I mean, you know, yeah, they’re curious and they they sometimes will just ask questions and sometimes you get a group of adults and they’re you know, adults are fun, but are most so when you look at the guiding aspect. So you’re out with a group walking through the desert, are most of the conversations around
Eva Westerling (28:26.269)
no that’s actually great.
Jason (28:50.517)
Cultural stuff, natural stuff, geology stuff. What kind of conversations are your guides having with your guests? I I kinda figured. All right. So you but I also heard you say you don’t see a lot of snakes and you’re not too worried about scorpions and stuff most of the year. Are there other little animals? You did mention the antelope. are there other little animals or a lot of interesting plants or as far as the
Eva Westerling (28:57.547)
All of the above.
Jason (29:17.983)
kind of the natural side of it, what’s the what’s what should people kind of expect or know about that?
Eva Westerling (29:24.287)
So that changes a bit with the weather conditions. So we’ve had a really long drought in the south of Morocco, so there were not many plants left and no plants means also a lot of the times no animals. But the last two winters have been very rainy, like comparatively, not compared to Germany or something, but you know, have been plenty rainy and so everything turned green and like last year in spring I went on a hike where there
Jason (29:27.124)
Sure, yeah.
Jason (29:36.501)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (29:41.267)
Yeah, yeah.
Eva Westerling (29:53.698)
were just mice, like desert mice, like different kinds. And they had like highways. You could see them like you would cross a I don’t know twenty centimeters wide road of mice tracks running in and out of their little house they have there. And just everywhere. Like you wouldn’t really see them because they are active at night. So if you sleep outside you will you will s be able to see them. But like during the day you mostly see their tracks. Then there’s lots of
Jason (29:56.405)
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jason (30:08.207)
wow.
Eva Westerling (30:22.881)
De different kind of lizards, there’s ants of all different sizes, silver ants that are really cool to see. There’s birds, like beetles. sometimes we see the tracks of snakes and also of the desert foxes that are also very elusive. But everybody would love to see a desert fox. So every now and then we get lucky, but it’s fairly rare because there’s now so many quads and cars in
Jason (30:27.569)
really?
Jason (30:40.341)
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Eva Westerling (30:51.873)
in lots of areas where they normally live and so they just hide in more remote places or only come out in like in the dark or something. So it’s getting a a bit harder. But yeah, every now and then we get lucky and get to see them.
Jason (31:00.853)
Yeah.
Jason (31:05.843)
All right. Let’s touch on the culture part. And I think the best way to do that is just I’m just gonna ask you, Berber Adventure Tours. For those of us that don’t know, what is what does the word Berber even mean? And what should we know about the Berber I’m just gonna say Berber. What does Berber mean? Tell tell us more.
Eva Westerling (31:23.565)
Yeah, so actually it’s it’s starting to feel a little bit inappropriate to call us that because the the people that we’re talking about, the Berber people, call themselves Amazir. And that in their language it means the free people. And they are the original inhabitants of Northern Africa. They like they spread all over. They are very closely related to like Egyptians and the Levantine.
And they’ve so they’ve been there way before the like i Islamic invasion of Northern Africa and they’ve been suppressed ever since. So their language was a purely spoken one for centuries basically. and it’s only I think become the official language or one of the official languages of Morocco in two thousand eleven. and they are a very proud people. Like they are they love their heritage and their culture and
Jason (31:57.577)
Mm-hmm.
Eva Westerling (32:22.151)
So they prefer to be called Amazir and not Burba, but nobody outside of Morocco knows that. So so yeah, maybe sooner or later we’ll we’ll have to do a rebrand and call ourselves Amazir Adventure Tourists, which also has a nice sound to it, so I wouldn’t mind. but yeah, so it’s the name of the people that are basically the n like the original inhabitants of Morocco and they are distinct
Jason (32:26.869)
Okay. That’s harder that’s hard for marketing, isn’t it?
Eva Westerling (32:50.945)
groups inside that. Like there’s the Rythian that live in the northern part. And then there’s I’m not sure if I can pronounce the others, but there’s a group that’s like the mountains and the deserts and then there’s a different group, I think closer to the coast, and they have different dialects in the language. So I can only effectively communicate with the ones close by because otherwise half the words will be different and I’m completely lost again.
Jason (33:09.364)
And I
Jason (33:16.959)
Yep, I get that. And did you say I can’t remember if you said are they traditionally migratory tripe type of people?
Eva Westerling (33:24.565)
Mhm. Yes, they are there used to be nomads all over the n northern African part of the continent because they followed th they had goats and camels and they followed the rain and the grass and you know, all the green stuff. So I don’t know, everybody’s heard of the Tuareg, which are not Moroccan. They they are from
Jason (33:41.149)
Okay.
Eva Westerling (33:50.358)
an area that is part Algerian and part Mali and I think maybe part Mauritania or something. And so when they cut those borders, they just separated them from each other. Like it’s crazy. Those borders are totally artificial, you know. and so a lot of Moroccans have relatives in Algeria because before that there was no border, you know, like they just lived on the other side of the river. So now they have a different nationality.
Jason (34:02.27)
Okay.
Jason (34:13.439)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (34:17.437)
And I was listen yeah, and I was listening to a a podcast or something. I saw something on YouTube they’re talking about the Saharawi, which is maybe in southern Morocco, which is kind of a it’s a disputed area or something like that. And it was kind of a fascinating conversation. I don’t know if if if that’s relevant to what we’re discussing today, but it’s it’s it yeah, when you take a place with people that were traditionally nomadic.
Eva Westerling (34:20.63)
It’s a bit crazy.
Eva Westerling (34:29.024)
Yeah, mhm. Yeah, exactly. Yes.
Jason (34:46.749)
And then start creating borders and deciding, well, who traditionally, you know, settled in that area. That’s pretty hard when they’re moving around a lot, I would imagine. So yeah. I guess the question I I have to ask, ’cause I don’t know the answer to it. So I’m gonna ask, what is a Bedouin and how does Bedouin compare to Berber? Is it kinda the same thing? I just I don’t know. And I don’t know if it’s something that you’re
Eva Westerling (35:09.014)
Mm.
I think the the term Bedouin is used for the nomads of the Arabian Peninsula. So the what we would call a nomad in in Morocco, I think they would call a Bedouin in like Jordan and Saudi Arabia, Oman. yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. No, but it’s it’s a question that I also had before. So I you know, I I actually read up on that. But like the the Berber equivalent
Jason (35:18.345)
Okay, okay, that makes sense.
Mm-hmm.
Jason (35:26.651)
Okay. And that’s far that’s a long ways away. I shouldn’t ask you that. I just didn’t know. So yeah. Yeah.
Eva Westerling (35:41.206)
would just be the I guess the Arabs you would call them in on the Ara Arabian Peninsula, right? Like that’s their like blood basically and not their form of living.
Jason (35:45.589)
Yeah, okay.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Jason (35:55.177)
Got it. Got it. No, absolutely.
So for somebody that’s never been there we’ve we’ve talked about well I’m trying to think where to you know what I really wanna do is I really want to get into how the heck you got there. Because I know that it’s a fascinating story and I I wanna make sure we have time to dig into that. So if you don’t mind, let’s shift gears. And I don’t wanna just go back to
when you fell in love with Morocco. I wanna go back to l like your childhood, you know, traumas, whatever’s going on early on in life and f and connect some dots so our listeners really kind of understand how you got there instead of just, you know, what happened when you went there the first time, that type of thing. So how far back do you think we need to go to kind of get an idea of what happened?
Eva Westerling (36:43.212)
Yeah, I actually wrote a blog post about that on my blog Not Scared of the Jetlag years ago about how I got to become a solo traveller or like an independent t traveller with this adventure focus of places nobody else goes to. and I think it started when I was really small with a book my father had about the wonders of the world and it had the original seven old world wonders in there, but also lots of other places and I always looked at that and I
Jason (36:59.466)
Mm-hmm.
Eva Westerling (37:13.12)
I was dreaming of going everywhere. I was maybe five or seven or something. And so that was always kind of a dream. And then during my well kind of high school years, my mom got like was sick. She died when I was 17. So, you know, like those years we didn’t really travel much. There wasn’t any like space for that in our life. and then after I graduated, I
Jason (37:30.429)
Jason.
Jason (37:35.732)
Yeah, yeah.
Eva Westerling (37:41.945)
took a year to live in the US as a au pair, living with a family and really like diving into the culture. So I think that was kind of like the first real formative travel experience. That that I’m not traveling with like packing and unpacking, but actually immersing myself in a culture, living somewhere for for a long time. It’s it’s totally different. So then I went back to Germany, went to university to study med medicine.
Jason (38:02.879)
Yeah, it’s different, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah.
Jason (38:09.769)
Well let me ask you if you d if you don’t mind, let me ask you real quick. so first of all, I guess what part of Germany w was this that you were growing up in? Were you just
Eva Westerling (38:21.112)
Sort of the northern middle Hanover and surroundings. I grew up in Hildesheim, but nobody knows that. Hanover most people know if they watch football soccer Hildesheim.
Jason (38:28.711)
Okay. But you said hill des hildesign, so that’s a small I you said nobody knows it, so I assume we’re talking small town.
Eva Westerling (38:35.276)
Well, it’s c yeah, it’s it’s a city, it’s like a hundred thousand people I think, but it’s like not on the tourist track. It’s not big in terms of American cities, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s that’s what I’m saying. It’s not that it’s not that small, but it’s just not it’s just doesn’t seem relevant to people traveling, you know, like th i there’s nothing really there. Yeah, exactly.
Jason (38:39.675)
okay. It’s it’s much bigger than the small town I grew up in.
Jason (38:54.739)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. It’s not on their radar. Why did why did your dad why do you think your dad, or maybe you know this, but why do you think he had a book about the wonders of the world and how did it get into your hands? Was was he encouraging that, do you think? I know it was a long time ago. Or it was a while ago. I shouldn’t say it was a long time ago. It was a few years ago.
Eva Westerling (39:10.456)
yeah. he he is like a huge fan of ancient Egypt. So that that was always like going to the Egyptian Museum and stuff like that. And I think, you know, because they are one of the original World Wonders, the pyramids, that book was there, you know, like yeah, probably I’m not sure, but yeah. I guess so. And so yeah, that’s
Jason (39:30.847)
is I just envisioned that. Probably the the cover of the book had a pyramid on it, I’m assuming.
Eva Westerling (39:41.281)
Even though l like when I was little we never travelled like ne we n we left Germany but never more than the neighbouring country. Like we went to Denmark or to Austria or to I don’t know, the Netherlands or something. But like we I had never flown until I got on that plane to go to the US as an opair
Jason (39:59.35)
okay. and and when you say we, we’re talking about, you know, your mom, dad and siblings. Do you have some siblings as well? Okay. Is younger or older?
Eva Westerling (40:06.282)
Mm, I have one brother. Yeah, one brother. Who who travels he’s two years younger and he travels with his motor home with his wife and dog just in Europe. Like they just they used to fly to the Caribbean or this you know, Mel molodives or something. But like they are not they are not doing the type of travelling that I do. They’re like the opposite. So yeah, I don’t know how that happens.
Jason (40:22.73)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (40:30.741)
Did do you happen to know if your if your parents traveled much before they had a family? Was that or was that something ’cause it sounds like your dad might have kind of been interested in that stuff. Do you know if he’d traveled
Eva Westerling (40:43.87)
Mm, well, he he was sent to the US as a child to live with his grandma for a year when he was like eight or nine. and then he travelled to like Italy once to because his sister married an Italian guy and they visited the family there, but not that much. But they were also still pretty young when I was born, so
Jason (41:01.481)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (41:06.229)
yeah. That happens. I can relate. did if I if I had a time machine and I was able to go back and and have a conversation with twelve or thirteen year old Eva and I said, Eva, what do you want to do when you grow up? Do you remember, do you have any idea what you would have said?
Eva Westerling (41:25.074)
I w s I I always wanted to be a doctor. well, actually not really. I always wanted to study medicine. I d never wanted to
Jason (41:28.265)
Jason (41:31.765)
Okay. Why do you think that was? Did that have anything to do with your mom’s sickness?
Eva Westerling (41:37.133)
I don’t I’m not sure but I remember even before she got sick that you know, we found we found a bird that had been slit in half by a cable, like an electricity cable, on the field or something. And it was lying there and we would get sticks and pull all the organs out. You know, like I was interested in that stuff when I was like way young.
Jason (41:56.118)
I th I I I thought you I thought you were gonna say you tried to save it. So you figured, well, we might as well do some scientific study here. Yeah, yeah, I get it. Yeah.
Eva Westerling (42:01.758)
no no no, it was well dead. Like it was literally cut in half in its belly. But like
Eva Westerling (42:11.276)
Yeah, like super interesting. So I’ve always been so curious about stuff like that. So I studied medicine because I was curious about how the body works, how I work. N not because I wanted to be a doctor to help people. That was just like a stupid necessity kind of coming with that, you know? But in the beginning I thought I would work in a lab and do science research, whatever. but then once I’ve had a few like internships with that, I that was out of the question.
Jason (42:19.666)
Uh-huh. All right.
Jason (42:28.359)
Sure.
Jason (42:38.921)
Well yeah. Let’s let’s let’s because ’cause I know you were just starting to talk about going to school and I kind of we I regressed a a little bit. So let’s pick up so in high school you’re into biology, it sounds like, anatomy, dissecting things, and you went to school for what was your what was your major or what was it medicine? How did that work?
Eva Westerling (43:01.762)
We don’t have we don’t have that kind of thing. Like high school high school is high school. Like every like we don’t really after that b th straight to med school. Like Germany doesn’t have like anything in between. If you qualify, if you like if your grades are good enough you can go straight to med school. So I did the year in the US and then went straight to med school. and yeah, so you know, studied and like every year I just eliminated more specialties that I didn’t want to do.
Jason (43:06.239)
Well, I meant like after maybe after high school, yeah.
Wow.
Eva Westerling (43:29.334)
You know, like in the beginning I was fairly open and then I was like, No, I’m not I’m not gonna do that. No, that’s crazy, like those people are weird or this is boring or you know. And and then we were like last the last year in Germany is like a practical year. You have to do four months each in three different specialties. You have to do some surgical like a surgical rotation, you have to do an internal medicine thing, and you can choose one.
Jason (43:30.336)
Okay.
Jason (43:43.593)
Uh-huh.
Eva Westerling (43:56.199)
And so we were all my friends and I were all discussing like what are you gonna do for your chosen rotation? And I was like, I don’t know, maybe anesthesia or pediatrics, I don’t know, I don’t know. And three of them said, You’re crazy, you need to do radiology. I’m like, What? Why? And they’re like, because every time they put an X ray or something in front of us, you look at it and you’re like, it’s right there. And we still don’t see it. You have talent. And I was like
Jason (43:56.307)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (44:12.654)
Yeah.
Jason (44:20.75)
Yeah, okay.
Eva Westerling (44:24.95)
Okay, never thought about that this way, but I’ve actually been secretly training for that since I was three. My grandma had this television program magazine that had the little find the mouse in a random like drawn picture. Yeah, I was always fastest with that. So I I think I was meant to I was meant to become a radiologist. And so I finished med school and then
Jason (44:38.755)
yeah, huh.
Jason (44:43.913)
I that’s that sounds familiar.
Eva Westerling (44:53.516)
Went to Australia for a year. No, actually let’s go let’s move one back because you asked about how I got to travel that the way I travel. For med school we had to do internships in our school summer breaks. And a friend and I actually went to do one on Zanzibar. It’s an island off the coast of Tanzania. Very beautiful. I had never heard of it, but she was set on going there for her honeymoon. And this was a great way to go and check it out. So
Jason (45:04.863)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (45:10.569)
Mm-hmm.
Eva Westerling (45:22.996)
ran random ways found us somebody who has a relative who lives there who got us in touch with the relevant people and we went for five weeks in the in summer like in our third year of med school or something and again we lived in an apartment in a house where there were other locals living there we couldn’t really communicate much but the the girl living downstairs was pregnant they do have
Polygamy, so her husband had two other wives in other places. And she would bring us like little portions of food she cooked for us to try, and we bought her some fresh veggies because she always complained that she doesn’t have the money for that. and you know, like we had a real cultural exchange, like a real connection with locals, and like working in the hospital was amazing just to see how different things can be. And I think like it
Jason (46:16.254)
yeah.
Eva Westerling (46:20.736)
a lot of people there are super poor. Like it’s r it was really hard coming back from that. Like going there, no issue at all. But coming home was a proper culture shock because everybody here has so much. Even and they still complain about everything. And so that really, really influenced the following years for me. You know
Jason (46:40.053)
Let me ask you this, because you mentioned that pretty much all the students needed to go somewhere and do something like that. did you call it an internship or when you went to Zan okay. Did they I guess the question is, did the typical student choose a place like Zanzibar or were you one of the crazy ones? I thought so. Or they want to go back where they live where they’re from or something like that, probably, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eva Westerling (46:59.424)
no. Yeah, yeah, definitely. No, most people stay in the same city. Like some of them
Yeah, like that or in the c in the city they’re studying because they’re already paying for rent there, or you know, like they might go to France or Italy. Yeah. But but going somewhere like that I think in our year we were the only ones who did something like that.
Jason (47:24.469)
Do you think that you learned a lot about medicine? Like was it if it if you just look at the okay, for the use of our time, I learned more about medicine being in Zanzibar or was it a w the same as what you would have learned about medicine somewhere else? But obviously you learn more about life and culture and yourself, I think, right? I
Eva Westerling (47:45.507)
No, actually both. we did they they let us do so much more than they would have let us do in Germany in an internship. Like they you know, I learned skills. I learned things that like even five years into my radiology specialization the the doctors wouldn’t let us do. And I was I like, but I know how to do that. Like I’ve done that w even without imaging. Like I know how to do that. I know that probably better than you because, you know, I’ve done that blind
Jason (47:50.805)
okay. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah.
Jason (48:06.298)
okay.
Jason (48:15.421)
Yeah, right. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. All right.
Eva Westerling (48:16.11)
So yeah, no, I mean I I learned about both. But I think that was a again a very, very like formative experience. And I kept saying after that, like, I wish I could travel in a way that I could just move across the world and staying everywhere for three to six months. Because I don’t wanna just r run around and see things. I wanna meet locals, I wanna live there, I wanna have that experience. But
Jason (48:39.923)
Yeah, yeah.
Eva Westerling (48:43.618)
That doesn’t work if you don’t have money lying around or you know, like growing on trees. Yeah. Yeah, and I mean back then back then digital nomading wasn’t a thing, you know? I mean we’re talking like twenty years ago. And so yeah, that that kind of that was a bit hard, but I still planned my travels.
Jason (48:47.669)
It’s it’s it’s hard, trust me. I’ve been doing it for four and a half years. It’s really hard. You couldn’t work online remotely, yeah, that was hard. Yeah, yeah.
Eva Westerling (49:11.062)
Like for example, years later I went to Jordan, small country, Highlandsy. and I stayed three weeks. And everybody who had been to Jordan was like, Are you crazy? The country is tiny. What do you want to do there for three weeks? Well I went three weeks and I could go back for three months and I still wouldn’t be finished with it. Right? Like there’s so much to do. And I dunno. It I d I don’t get people who like go to Europe for two weeks and see
Jason (49:18.036)
Yeah.
Jason (49:28.575)
Yep. Yep.
Eva Westerling (49:40.79)
like C three count five countries in you know, like that’s crazy to me. Like why would you want to do that? You don’t even get a proper impression of any of them.
Jason (49:52.138)
Yeah, well you and I are not necessarily the typical person out there. but but but also like I gotta give them credit. Like, okay, well if they only have two weeks’ vacation and that’s the life they’ve chosen, at least they’re gonna go somewhere and see something. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, yep, I get that.
Eva Westerling (49:57.247)
I know.
Eva Westerling (50:06.39)
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah no definitely at l if as long as they’re leaving the country they’re already good. But yeah, it’s just not my style, I guess. So I also don’t wanna design that those tiny type of trips for other people, right? Like it all comes back to I people always say you shouldn’t your client shouldn’t be you. You you shouldn’t design for yourself. But actually I think it’s the best I can do because that’s what I know. Like I cannot I cannot sell
Jason (50:19.294)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (50:32.051)
Yeah. Yeah.
Eva Westerling (50:36.35)
luxury trips with fancy restaurants and whatever because I don’t stay in those places, I don’t eat in those places. Like that’s like that would totally b not be authentic, right? Like
Jason (50:44.308)
Yeah.
It Eva, it it would be like me doing a finance podcast or or something like that. Yeah, people like, you know, Jason, there’s there’s a lot of other genres that you could do podcasting in that might be better. And I’m like, Yeah, no. No, thank you. So, yeah, all right. So how did you so how did you figure it out? What was your what was your aha moment to help you do that type of lifestyle, or did you just have to totally change gears?
Eva Westerling (50:52.354)
Yeah. Or medicine.
Eva Westerling (51:02.358)
Ha ha ha
Yeah, so
Eva Westerling (51:14.234)
just it well, it kinda just happens. I mean, it’s it’s mostly like that, right? You you don’t really plan for things like that. So I the f my f well where should we go go next? So in 2011 I went to Egypt with my parents. I actually invited my father on a tr like twelve day trip to Egypt.
Jason (51:29.063)
Mm-hmm. wow. Nice.
Eva Westerling (51:33.459)
And so we saw the pyramids. My stepmom mother came along too. We saw the pyramids, we saw all the temples and then we went to the desert because I said, I don’t wanna just do culture, I want some nature too. So we stayed overnight in an oasis in the middle of nowhere. but in a hotel. And when we were there, we we learned that you could also like stay in a tent outside in the desert. But we didn’t have time. Like we needed to leave the next day, right? So I thought, that’s something I need to figure out, like that’s what I wanna do. So
Jason (51:37.012)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (51:55.647)
Mm-hmm.
Eva Westerling (52:01.398)
When I came back I started searching for desert trips. Like desert mostly I wanted something with camels. Like I wanted to ride a camel across the desert and couldn’t find that. But what I did find was a German agency that offers desert hiking and you can book a riding camel. So I thought, that that actually sounds good. It took four years for that to happen because I could never make the dates work w with my work, with j with my job. but in
Jason (52:05.749)
Mm-hmm.
Eva Westerling (52:30.478)
2015 I actually went to Morocco on like with that company, but they outsourced it to a local agency, which was great. We had a great Moroccan guide and four women in the group. it you know, like tourism was very l slow at that time, so groups wo wouldn’t fill up so much. and we hiked nine days through the desert. And I w like on the flight home, I was think thinking this was the best holiday I’ve
ever had. I’ve never been so relaxed. Just because there was no phone, there was no noise, like you could just meditate for the six hours you were walking and just you know, be with yourself. Or spend it talking. I mean, you know, you had every option.
Jason (53:14.869)
Do you do you do you know how do you know how painful that sounds to some people? Not the people listening to this show. Be with yourself? my gosh. No s no cell phone. I do want to ask you, I do want to ask you this though. Was it the fact that it was in Morocco? Was that just kind of, well, that’s just where they’re doing this trip? Or like if it had been
Eva Westerling (53:20.3)
Yeah I know but but I I loved it. And Yeah Hmm No, it was amazing. And so
Eva Westerling (53:40.856)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jason (53:43.561)
ride camels in Tunisia or Algeria or Egypt or Jordan or something like that, would would you have cared? I mean it was you so in a sense you kinda ended up in Morocco on accident because that’s just where they did it. Okay.
Eva Westerling (53:54.029)
Yeah. Exactly. And then the year after I went with the same company on a hiking trip in the desert in Oman in the empty quarter. That was much harder. It was hotter. The desert is more boring. It it’s just sand. And you know, that like didn’t enjoy that so much. still met great people on that trip, so you know, and Oman is an amazing country. I went back there a few years later with a friend.
Jason (54:05.205)
Okay.
Jason (54:10.823)
Okay. Yeah.
Jason (54:17.418)
Mm-hmm.
Eva Westerling (54:23.214)
and then the year after that, I was always in November, that was always my time to to go. I went to Jordan. went f like spent five days in the in the Wadiram Desert doing hiking and camera riding and you know like climbing on mountains and stuff. and during that year that when I went was in Oman, I kind of had like a little midlife crisis or quarterlife crisis or something in between that.
And I I thought I’ve gotta change my life. Like I don’t wanna go back to the to by that time I wasn’t in the hospital anymore. When I finished my specialization I switched jobs and went to work for a big medical equipment company to work as a healthcare consulting internationally. So I tr I started travelling a lot for work, which was great but also exhausting. And it was always like a mix of burnout during the projects and then kind of bore out in between because when
Jason (55:10.867)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (55:20.341)
Yeah.
Eva Westerling (55:20.958)
you know, sometimes there were gaps that were a bit longer than necessary for relaxation and then it just got a bit boring. So that was also clear that’s not gonna be f my forever thing. But yeah, so I was an Oman and I figured I’ve gotta change things. Like I don’t wanna go back to this corporate life forever. Like I still have way too many years of work in front of me. So I w I came back home and I figured I I need to figure out what I can do and what I wanna do and where. And so the first step was I started a travel block. and
Over the next years kind of figure out that tha I’m not really that ambitious to really make money with that. Like and also like I don’t I always feel like the ones that really made money are the ones that just sold whatever the mainstream wants. And that’s just not me. Again, you know, like that’s not what I do. Like I cannot do that. so I kind of figured that wouldn’t be very successful, but I kept it going just for fun because it gave me something to do. and
Jason (55:57.718)
Yeah.
Jason (56:07.765)
Same same conversation. Yeah, I get that.
Eva Westerling (56:20.416)
And also I started saving money. Like I the year before I had basically spent everything I made. And I made good money in that consulting job, right? But I just went on shopping spree and bought all the nice fancy cameras and whatever equipment. and I just
Jason (56:36.403)
Was that do you think do you think that’s because you were bored? Sometimes when people are bored and they’re not doing what they really want to do, they kind of distract themselves with other stuff. Do you think? Yeah, yeah.
Eva Westerling (56:40.556)
Yeah.
Eva Westerling (56:44.268)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m sure. And also I mean there was always a reason to have another dress, some wedding or like you know, I but totally unnecessary. So I I put that on a h like hard stop. I just stopped spending money. For one year I own like I didn’t stop spending on food, like I still went out for dinner and stuff and lunch every day and whatever. But I didn’t go shopping for clothes, I didn’t go shopping for any electronics, I didn’t buy DVDs, which were still a thing back then.
Jason (56:48.981)
Yeah.
Jason (57:13.713)
Mm-hmm. So someone listening to this says, What is she talking about? DVDs? But anyway, okay.
Eva Westerling (57:14.053)
I just
Yeah, maybe I don’t know your demographics, but but yeah, and then so and then I went to Jordan, kind of thinking that maybe when I come back I will quit because I felt like maybe now I have enough money to go traveling for two years and figure out what I’m gonna do next. But b also like at that during that time my boss wasn’t really great. Like my former boss had left and his boss became my
Jason (57:33.205)
Mm-hmm.
Eva Westerling (57:45.891)
boss because they couldn’t find anything to replace him for a while and it was just a very un like unhappy situation in a way. But I came back from Jordan and my boss had changed. Like there was a guy who sounded like he really knew what we wanted to do. And you know like and I figured okay maybe it’s gonna be fun again. Maybe he can find enough work in interesting places to make this actually worth it. So I stayed and I saved. And
Jason (58:01.108)
Yeah.
Eva Westerling (58:13.056)
And went to Morocco again, at the end of two thousand eighteen, with an Australian lady that I had met through another p travel podcast actually. And she had set up a desert hiking trip. Originally, I think she planned to go for four weeks, and I said, I might join you for two of those. I don’t think I wanna do four weeks, but you know, two weeks I can do. And so we had one phone call month before the trip actually happened to figure out if we get along in
along enough to to make this work and it sounded okay. We didn’t become friends. she was really weird. but like she travelled really I don’t care so much but like she travelled with a huge hard shell suitcase.
Jason (58:50.165)
Hope she doesn’t hear this.
Jason (59:01.429)
For a four week for a four week hiking trip? Yeah.
Eva Westerling (59:04.332)
Well, on a camel. Like the guy the the camel crew was so upset because it took half an hour longer to pack the camels every day just because that suitcase couldn’t be fixed in a way that it wouldn’t slide off. Like and they had told her before to not do that and she still showed up with it because she wanted to take photos for the guy who sold her that suitcase as a promotion or whatever. Well anyway, so yeah, that you know. I but again, not my type of person, not my type of travel.
Jason (59:28.575)
Okay. Yep.
Eva Westerling (59:34.028)
But yeah, the trip was great, and my now partner, Hassan, was our guide on the trip and translator and whatever. So that’s how we met. and so I went home after four weeks in Morocco, 16 days of those hiking through the Sahara, the last five days alone, because she had to go back to Marrakesh early. and then
Jason (59:39.709)
Yeah.
Jason (59:54.996)
Wait, wait, were you alone or w son, yeah. Okay.
Eva Westerling (59:57.687)
Well with the with with Hassan and our camelman Omar. Yeah yeah. and so because we the plan was to hike from Zagora to Mezuga and she like they had t told her the guy she bought the trip with had told her no problem, you can do that in ten to twelve days, no problem. And I looked at the map and I was like, Never. Like not happening. Like we’re not hiking that much. And of course we didn’t. So she had to be picked up on day eleven because she had to return to Marrakesh and I like, But I I would actually I wouldn’t mind.
going all the way to Mezuka. I don’t have any plans. So I n renegotiated with him the for the last few days and kept walking. And then after that trip I went home and my boss said, You need to come into my office and told me that they’re restructuring the whole department and everything that I thought would be w was so fun and I w I loved doing wouldn’t be a priority anymore. And so he he said, I need to really think what I wanna do in the future, like where I can
put myself in the department and so that was just before Christmas. So after New Year’s, like we all had a long break over Christmas and New Year’s, I came back and I just handed him my resignation. And he I think he he was kind of surprised, but not so much. Like he just didn’t know what what I would do. But you know, I he didn’t really see it coming, but yeah.
Jason (01:01:15.349)
Let me let me ask you this. Yeah. If was there anything that hap I’m gonna go there. was there anything that happened on that last trip in Morocco that kind of just cemented the deal like otherwise you may not have quit your job? Cause sometimes it’s like, wow, I think I found myself. I think I found my place or where I really want to be. And then you go back home and your boss throws your curveball and you’re like,
This is meant to be. This is I was already thinking that.
Eva Westerling (01:01:46.029)
Well, no. I mean, it’s for those two years that I had been saving, I had also been saying to all my friends, I’m just waiting for the sign of the universe to tell me now is the time to quit, right? And I’ve I had been kind of just waiting, waiting, waiting. But it wasn’t the trip in Morocco, it was the talk with my boss that actually said, Now is the time to quit because I don’t wanna do this the strategic talks with the C suite in you know, like that’s again, just not me.
Jason (01:01:55.485)
so there you go.
Jason (01:02:05.694)
It was.
Jason (01:02:12.307)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We’re getting a good feel for your personality in this conversation. I love it. It’s so cool.
Eva Westerling (01:02:16.13)
and yeah I I I need to I need to enjoy my work. If I spend eight hours or ten hours a day doing it, I need to have some fun doing it. You know, like people don’t understand that sometimes, neither in the hospital world nor in corporate business. But I’m just not doing that. Like I’m not made to suffer. so yeah, I quit.
Jason (01:02:27.625)
with ya. I’m with ya, yeah, yeah. Uhhuh.
Eva Westerling (01:02:39.798)
and sold as much of my things as I could because I figured I would go travel, depending on how much I would spend, it w the money would last for I don’t know, two to five years. You know, like I just didn’t have a clue how how much I would spend, like what type of experiences I wanted to do. And so I’ve you know, I thought, where am I gonna start? And I was like, maybe I’ll just go back to Mazooka where I ended the last trip and sit down in
Jason (01:02:46.792)
Mm-hmm.
Nice. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jason (01:03:02.663)
Mm-hmm. I know this guy I know this guy there.
Eva Westerling (01:03:06.808)
S I I just I’ll just sit down in the desert where it’s quiet and figure out what I wanna do, where I wanna go next, what I’ll do with my money and leave when it starts getting too hot. So I I c I left Germany in the first week of March in two thousand nineteen and I figured I’ll have like five weeks in Morocco before I wanna go somewhere else because it’s starting to get too hot and so yeah, I went back there and we were kinda like of course
you know, her son f like found me an apartment and stuff. because that’s kinda hard to organize when you’re not there. And also I I wasn’t sure if it’s possible to just arrive and rent something right away. But it actually is. It’s like it’s so different. and yeah so I We started talking about like how much we enjoyed that hiking trip and I was like I wanna do that again. Like I need to find people who go go with me because it was just so expensive.
Jason (01:03:42.885)
yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m sure.
Jason (01:04:04.842)
Yeah.
Eva Westerling (01:04:04.926)
And so I started putting it out on like in some Facebook groups and in my circle of friends and relatives and whatever and got a got quite a bit of interest. But of course, you know, like people on Facebook always say, yeah, I’m interested and then when it’s happening they don’t show up. But we I actually had one of my best friends and her colleague that said they will definitely come. So I let them pick the date because they are teachers and they needed this to happen in the school holidays.
And then another woman from the UK wanted to come along who knew me through the other travel podcast. and she ended up cancelling a week or ten days before because her boss took back her holiday request. Which in Germany you are not allowed to, but in the UK apparently you can because like they had some too many people on sick leave or something and she couldn’t go. So in the end we went with my friend and her colleague on a five like it was a
five day hike but I actually met them in Marrakesh. We had spent two days on Marrakesh and then drove down into the desert with one stop on the way, to see some more sights and have a bit of a relaxed time because it is a long drive and then we hiked for five days and then they stayed one more night in Mezuga and left the next morning I think.
Jason (01:05:22.021)
sensing as you tell this I’m picking up on the ooh ding ding ding idea idea idea that maybe I can just promote trips and extend my travels or what did that come up it ’cause I
Eva Westerling (01:05:36.801)
Yeah, so I mean the summer I spent travelling. I went to Italy and the Balkans and Indonesia and Australia and then back to Morocco for this trip and and they they actually said after the hike, like you’ve gotta turn this into a business. This was amazing, like this was the best holiday ever. Like what I said after mine, right? Like they had the exact same reaction and and my partner was always like, Yeah, no problem, just put it again on Facebook and I’m like, People don’t do that though. Like they don’t trust that. We need a website, we need to like
Jason (01:05:51.303)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jason (01:05:55.487)
Yep. Mm-hmm.
Eva Westerling (01:06:06.698)
register the business, like this has to be properly set up for that to work. And so I started building a website and, you know, like putting all that together like steep learning curve. but I did all that myself. And then I went to Oman again with my friend that following January in twenty twenty. And then of course the pandemic happened. So tr like tourism was on hold. So I didn’t even get to travel anymore. Like we were just stuck in
Jason (01:06:29.691)
yeah. Yep.
Eva Westerling (01:06:35.84)
in Mazooga and Greater Morocco for quite a while because they kept closing the borders and and by the time that calmed down, we actually had our first clients that found us on Google or one of them actually found me in a Facebook group, which was fun. but yeah, they started finding us when they Googled for hiking and or whatever stuff in Mezuga and we got the first good reviews and then it just
Slowly grew. I mean the first two years there wasn’t much, but I still had enough savings and and after that we made enough to live off. last year we actually had money left over, which was amazing. So I’m slowly refilling my my bank account again. but yeah, I mean it’s I last summer I to I took on a summer project and actually rede r redesigned our whole website and
Jason (01:07:06.325)
Yeah.
Jason (01:07:17.597)
Yeah, that’s good job.
Eva Westerling (01:07:34.422)
made it a bit smoother, and yeah, so
Jason (01:07:34.493)
That’s cool.
Jason (01:07:39.007)
Do you ever do you ever look back at the medical consulting or radiology type stuff, and regret leaving that? I didn’t think you would
Eva Westerling (01:07:48.991)
no, never. Every time I talk to somebody I used to work with, everything they say makes me so happy I left. I mean half of them are th thinking about quitting if they haven’t quit yet. Like most of them changed jobs too because it was just like it it’s just not a life that’s sustainable in the long term, I think.
Jason (01:07:57.181)
Yeah.
Jason (01:08:04.543)
There is
Yeah. Th I was gonna say I think there is something about the type of person that likes to travel and go explore. I I wonder sometimes if that desire helps them quit miserable jobs. Because if you d right, ’cause if you don’t exactly. And it’s like if you live in some
Eva Westerling (01:08:22.114)
I think so. We are not afraid of change, but
Jason (01:08:31.451)
city that you’re not that happy and you’ve got a job that you’re not that happy and you’ve got a relationship that you’re not that happy. You’re like, well, I might as well just keep my job because I’m not that you know, whatever. But if you’re the type that I was always like, Ooh, I wanna go see this, I wanna go do that, and my job’s getting in the way. So it’s much easier to say, Well, screw that. I’ll figure something out. I don’t know if that’s that’s I’ve been through that. Yeah, yeah.
Eva Westerling (01:08:52.354)
Yes, I I think so. I mean I’m always up for a challenge and I I like change. Like I o I’m always the first to try try things. Like even in my work e in my work environment before. If there was a new software I would volunteer to test it out before it was rolled out or w you know, stuff like that. Like everybody else was like, Are you crazy? That’s even more work. I’m like, Yeah, but that’s the fun work
Jason (01:09:14.249)
Yeah, yeah.
Or even even like even I I’m sensing from you probably learning how to build a website. Learning how to do some of that stuff. It’s it’s not necessarily tourism. Some tour operators want to have nothing to do with building a website. But, you know, there’s others that are if you’re curious enough to want to go travel the world, you might want, I may hey, you know, it’s it’s slow season or whatever. We’re not getting a lot of bookings right now, but I can build a website, that’d be cool. That’d be fun. I I I’m I’m on the same
Eva Westerling (01:09:23.458)
Yeah. Exactly.
Eva Westerling (01:09:42.914)
Yeah, exactly.
Jason (01:09:45.491)
Same on the same page here. I do want to ask you one thing about
Jason (01:09:52.19)
You know, you talked about the wonders of the world book when you were young, that probably had a pyramid on the front of it. Probably had a lot of pages inside with photos of things in the desert. Jordan, you know, wadi round places like that. W have you figured out why you’re so tied to the desert? Because I’ve heard you say several times, like I just like being in the desert. I want to go sleep in a tent in the desert. There’s a lot of beautiful places. Yeah.
Eva Westerling (01:10:18.156)
Yeah, that’s a good question. I think I mean every time I’m I’m at a beach, I’m like, why why did I end up in the desert? Like why am I not living here? You know, like the I do love the ocean. but it’s just I think in a way it’s the one place that really calms me down and quiets me. You know, like it there it’s a bit like a s sensory deep
Jason (01:10:29.556)
Yeah, huh.
Jason (01:10:43.421)
Yeah.
Eva Westerling (01:10:45.71)
depression tank or so deprivation tank or whatever, you know like it’s kind of like I mean there’s stuff to see and whatever, it’s really beautiful, but it’s everything there is like the small things. You know, like it’s it’s you can look at the animals. You can s you you see patterns in the sand after the wind or whatever. Like it’s and in a lot of places you have like really wide horizons. Like you can see very far. You’re not like crowded in or whatever. And
Jason (01:10:47.229)
Mm-hmm. Deprivation tank. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jason (01:11:04.636)
Yeah.
Eva Westerling (01:11:15.168)
I think like it’s just the combination of all of those things that I just really like. I don’t know, I n but even like in even in back in high school I I kept saying I’m born in the wrong place, like Germany is too cold for me. I wish I was born in a hotter place. So you know like I mean it does it at at least for like ten months of the year. Like I I d do go away for July and August because it’s just that’s just too much. But even the locals just don’t do anything in those months.
Jason (01:11:19.231)
Do you th
Jason (01:11:28.281)
okay. So North Africa sounds like a good spot. Yeah.
Eva Westerling (01:11:44.769)
Like they just spend the whole day basically lying around and live at night just because it’s just unbearably hot. Like it’s not something you can be born being okay with or enjoy or get used to, I think. Everybody suffers.
Jason (01:11:59.902)
Interesting. Right. Yeah, yeah. No, I I I get it. And I’d lived in Arizona. I lived in Phoenix, Arizona, which in the middle of the desert. But yeah, it’s also a city. So there’s it’s not a lot of quiet and solitude, which you can get if you go outside the city. But the desert is an interesting place. we’ve discussed a bunch a bunch of things. you’ve got a fascinating story, and I know we missed some spots. We either come back, but I’m curious right now, like
Eva, what do you wish that I would have asked you or what do you feel like we we missed that we might want to touch on before we wrap up?
Eva Westerling (01:12:36.684)
I don’t know. I think we covered probably pretty much everything. I mean
Eva Westerling (01:12:47.712)
Maybe I mean it maybe I made it sound too easy. Like working in Morocco is really hard. It’s not like it’s it’s it’s not like it’s not the easy peasy dream job because like Moroccan people tick so differently, like especially as a German. We we are very punctual, we are very reliable. Like if we say yes, okay, you know, that’s like having a contract.
Jason (01:12:53.597)
yeah, let’s touch let’s touch on that ’cause you and I had a brief conversation about that. Yeah.
Jason (01:13:10.697)
I think I think it might be hard for Germans to work in any part of the world. Just my take on it. I don’t know. Yeah, yeah.
Eva Westerling (01:13:14.922)
Maybe, maybe. But there are places where it’s a lot easier. Like I’ve I mean I worked in a lot of places and like Sweden and the Netherlands were really easy with that kind of thing, you know, like but but yeah, so in Morocco that’s really hard. Like we like like I said, we try to work with as many locals as possible to, you know, sp spread the spread the money around a bit because I don’t I’m not doing this to be rich, but you know, we are trying to support the community as widely as we can.
Jason (01:13:21.843)
Well yeah those yeah, those places.
Jason (01:13:32.541)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Eva Westerling (01:13:42.829)
But people are unreliable. Like you ask for a price for a driver for six days, they give you price, and then when you want to pay, all of a sudden it now got more expensive. And you’re like, yeah, well you should have said that before, you know? Like that’s really not okay going back on on that offer. Or you know, they just show up late or whatever. Like it’s just sometimes it’s a bit unreliable. So that that’s a bit hard. And I mean living there is so hard to like we we need to get something fixed and
the f the handy guys, you know, like they they’re always like, yeah, yeah, we’ll we’ll come tomorrow, we’ll come tomorrow and they keep saying that for a week and like for a week we don’t have water in the kitchen and you know like
Jason (01:14:24.597)
Do you do you find yourself having to remind yourself you’re like, Yes, this is frustrating and in in a sense it’s also part of what I I love about the place. Like like or not. You don’t love that at all.
Eva Westerling (01:14:35.032)
Well no, I do not love that about a place. But I but I did get used to other p things. Like f if I wanna go into the next sort of bigger town for shopping, I’ll have to take a taxi. We don’t have a car. Like I I I’m not I don’t have a car. so I take the shared taxi and that leaves when it’s full. So they need six people. So if it if it’s market day, the taxis will all be full. There will be a line of twenty people waiting, right? But on other days, sometimes you will wait for an hour
Jason (01:14:56.74)
yeah yeah.
Jason (01:15:02.229)
Mm-hmm.
Eva Westerling (01:15:05.184)
And that drove me crazy in the beginning, like not knowing when I’ll go and w when I’ll be back and when I can have lunch and you know, like I get hangry. So now it’s just like, I’ll tell them I wanna go, I leave my money, then I’ll sit in the cafe and the ka the taxi will come by and honk and I will just have to pay my coffee really quickly and get in, you know. And then I now know where to find pla like food in Rhissani as well in the town to, you know, have lunch there if it’s, you know, too late to go back and cook at home.
Jason (01:15:07.731)
Yeah, I bet
Jason (01:15:14.007)
huh.
Jason (01:15:21.786)
that’s there you go. huh.
Eva Westerling (01:15:35.227)
and those kind of things I got really relaxed around and it’s kinda hard sometimes, at least for a two day full for a day or two to come back to Germany where everything other than the German Deutsche Bahn is on time. They are never, but like everything else is running on time. And yeah, but I just I close and open the drawers and adapt very fa very quickly these days.
Jason (01:15:44.809)
Yeah.
Jason (01:15:48.735)
Yep, yep. Eva, Eva, let me a let me ask you this.
Yeah. Let me ask you this. If I was sitting here having a conversation with Hassan, your partner right now, and I said, What’s it like dealing with a German woman? What’s he gonna say? From just like from his cultural perspective, yeah.
Eva Westerling (01:16:12.192)
I’m sure he’ll I’m sure he’ll see good and bad parts in it. Like he knows like I’m very good at organizing things, you know, if he asks me how much will this cost, I will tell him and it will not change. I I remind him of things that are important, you know. at the same time of course the exact same things drive him crazy, but in in different situations. But yeah, good question.
Jason (01:16:35.317)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it’s it’s funny.
Jason (01:16:42.037)
Well, maybe we’ll have to have have him come and join me for a conversation as well. We can hear the complete other side of it. it’s been fascinating. I guess before we wrap up, I will ask you, do you have anything you’re super excited about on the horizon? Any new routes you’re gonna you’re working on, or or I guess I would even want to ask you, have you considered, you know, organizing trips to other places in North Africa, the Middle East? Because it seems like you’re pretty interested in those places.
Eva Westerling (01:17:11.858)
so I would be interested, but I think it’s not really feasible. Like having a business or have like doing that cross country, like from Morocco. I’m not sure how that like that would be a nightmare tax wise and all those kind of things. Like we are registered in Morocco, like all our business happens there, the money stays there, you know, like and yeah, it’s in a way, but like I’m not sure if you could just
Jason (01:17:30.559)
Kinda have your kinda have your hands full.
Eva Westerling (01:17:37.952)
start running trips in Tunisia or if you would have to have a business there. Like how w you know, how would that work? And
Jason (01:17:43.765)
Well if you c if you maybe if you contract with somebody on the ground in Tunisia and then you maybe just lead lead the trips, you know. Yeah, yeah.
Eva Westerling (01:17:48.291)
Yeah, but I would have to spend significant time there to meet them and figure it out and you know, and then I would have to fly there, that would make the trips infinitely more expensive and I’m not quite sure that’s worth it. I also try not to fly so much, like I’m very conscious about my CO two emissions, so I’m actually quite okay.
With like we I mean we’re trying to add other places in Morocco. We try to travel once or twice a year to places where we go hiking and meet guides that we can th then sell. like they will guide the trip, but we sell it through our website and make a bit of money on top. which worked really well in one place and not so well in another. So, you know, we it’s like I said, it’s hard. The people are unreliable. Like
Jason (01:18:19.221)
Mm-hmm.
Jason (01:18:22.697)
Yeah.
Jason (01:18:31.795)
Yeah. Well we were we were just discussing some of those some of those challenges.
Eva Westerling (01:18:36.436)
If if we if we tell them three months in advance we will have clients on that day and you need to be there, like there are not many where that will work. They will send their cousin who then doesn’t speak English and it’s just that’s just not what I wanna do, you know? So
Jason (01:18:47.497)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So many of our listeners work in the tourism industry and are absolutely like, Yep, I get that. They’ve been there, been there, done that. But that’s also, you know, yeah. So Eva, thank you so much. This was fascinating conversation. Super excited to to hear your story and
Eva Westerling (01:18:57.718)
Mm, mm-hmm, I’m sure.
Jason (01:19:08.455)
I’ve been wanting to go to Morocco for a long time and when I have conversations like this it just makes me want to go more and more. So I suspect I’ll see you there before very long ’cause it’s it’s high on my list. So thank you so much for sharing.
Eva Westerling (01:19:19.714)
That would be amazing. We would be so happy to host you.
Jason (01:19:23.755)
well okay then we should I’ll just make that happen. Yes, it’s it’s a super cool place. So thank you so much. Appreciate you and look forward to seeing you in person next time. All right. Thanks, Eva. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Have a great day. Thanks.
Eva Westerling (01:19:34.412)
All right, great. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks you too, bye.
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