Guest Bio
Hayley Wright is the co-founder of Black Mountain, an adventure travel company based in Montenegro. With a background in media and marketing, Hayley transitioned into adventure tourism, leveraging her passion for exploration and diverse cultural experiences. Her extensive travels include a ski expedition to the North Pole, a winter spent living in Siberia, and visits to Everest base camp, Alaska, and Kilimanjaro. Fluent in Russian and Montenegrin, Hayley is also a Leave No Trace trainer and holds certifications in Expedition Management, Biodiversity Research, and Sustainable Tourism.
Show Summary
In this episode, Hayley Wright discusses her journey from a corporate career in media and marketing to co-founding Black Mountain. She shares insights into the challenges and rewards of establishing an adventure travel company in the Western Balkans, the importance of sustainable tourism practices, and her experiences in some of the world’s most remote and coldest regions. Hayley also reflects on balancing her professional endeavors with raising a family in Montenegro.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Career Transition: Leveraging previous professional skills can lead to successful ventures in new industries.
- ✓ Adventure and Exploration: Embracing challenging environments fosters personal growth and resilience.
- ✓ Sustainable Tourism: Implementing responsible travel practices is crucial for environmental conservation and community well-being.
- ✓ Cultural Immersion: Learning local languages and customs enhances the authenticity of travel experiences.
- ✓ Work-Life Balance: Balancing professional ambitions with family life requires adaptability and support.
What You’ll Find on Black Mountain’s Platform
- ✓ Active Experiences: Guided hiking, mountain biking, and rafting tours showcasing Montenegro’s diverse landscapes.
- ✓ Cultural Journeys: Immersive experiences that delve into the region’s rich history, traditions, and cuisine.
- ✓ Tailor-Made Travel: Customized itineraries designed to meet individual interests and preferences.
- ✓ Sustainable Practices: Commitment to eco-friendly tourism that benefits local communities and preserves natural habitats.
- ✓ Expert Guidance: Access to knowledgeable guides and consultants with extensive regional experience.
👉 Visit Black Mountain’s Official Website to explore their offerings and learn more about Hayley Wright’s contributions to adventure tourism in Montenegro.
Learn more about Black Mountain Montenegro and connect with Hayley at:
https://www.montenegroholiday.com/
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Welcome everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. Happy to have each and every one of you back here today to listen to another wonderful guest speaker that’s come in and agreed to share all of their personal childhood details and stories for how they got to doing this crazy thing that we call adventure tourism. And today we’ve got Hayley Wright with Black Mountain Montenegro. Hayley, so happy to have you here on the show, welcome.
Jason, thank you so much. I’m really, really happy to be here. I really appreciate the invitation to join you. Well, it’s a real pleasure. And should we just jump in and I’ll ask you your first memory of your childhood? Or should we start somewhere else? No, I’m joking. And, you know, what I found after having conversations like this with so many fascinating people, is the people that end up in adventure travel or adventure tourism, or, you know, whichever words you want to use to describe it.
They always have some interesting twist, turn, or story family lineage. Sometimes it’s like in the blood, other times it’s like, no, everybody else in my family thought I was crazy. So what is your story as far as, you know, how did you get from where you were? Where were you? And how did you get from where you were to where you are now? Well, I guess, I mean, I’ve always loved travel. I’ve always been fascinated by the countries, by languages, my parents were big travelers.
My father spent many years working in Africa in some quite difficult places, actually challenging places, as you can imagine, back in the 70s and 80s. He always seemed to be escaping from another coup or civil war, you know, but his adventures and the cultures and the people that he met, the stories were fascinating. And my mom, when she was 19 years old, she emigrated from the UK to Canada. That was a big adventure back in the 60s as well.
you know, the stories she used to tell about living on a ranch and, you know, you know, dating cowboys and going to drive in movies, which we didn’t have in the UK, even when I was a kid. It just all seemed fascinating. And I just, through my parents, I got a love for mountains. I mean, I grew up in the southern UK, which is pretty flat. So, you know, I used to look at photographs of mountains and dream of going to mountainous places and
Jason Elkins (02:37.226)
I don’t know, I just always fascinated by travel and other cultures. So I followed that, you know, always looking to travel to as many places as I could on vacation. But my actual job, I mean, I worked in the oil industry for 10 years. That’s not really particularly because what did you do in the oil industry? Because I’ve I’m noticing a trend with some of the people I speak with, I’m curious if you fit into that trend. So what did you do in the oil industry?
Well, I kind of fell into it because I actually I went and lived in Russia for a while. I studied Russian language. Oh, in the early 90s. Yeah. Again, which was probably an interesting time to be there. A very interesting time. The Soviet Union had just collapsed. And I was absolutely fascinated always had been with what was behind this iron curtain, you know.
So long story short, I ended up living in Russia. I learned the language. And then in Russia, they had an economic collapse. I was basically being paid in rubles. And it got to the point where the inflation was so rampant, you needed a pile of rubles this thick, like half a million rubles just to buy a Big Mac in McDonald’s in Moscow. So my paycheck- So for those of you that are listening to this on, you know,
that didn’t see what she was doing. I’d say you kind of held up your fingers. You set a stack of rubles that was much thicker than the Big Mac. Yeah, much thicker. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Two times. Two times thicker than the Big Mac. So basically I wound up back in the UK because Russia was in turmoil. And I got a job in the oil industry because I spoke Russian. And at the time, obviously Russia was opening up a lot of businesses and a lot of oil.
And that’s more or less how I ended up working in the oil industry. And I was basically responsible. Was it as a translator? Or I’m sorry, what were you said? Yeah, I was working on the Russian desk. I was translating. I was also responsible for moving cargoes of oil around the world. Not very sustainable in today’s environment, but that was what I did. I moved oil around the world. So I was dealing with other countries.
Jason Elkins (04:49.95)
other nationalities talking to people all over the world every day. And I found that part of it fascinating. I can see where that would be a good skill set. I can see where that would be a good skill set for somebody that wanted to go into more of the tourism end of it. Logistics, moving clients from point A to point B and, and staying organized because frankly, a lot of people in tourism are people that are drawn into tourism. Maybe don’t always have the best organizational skills.
And I am speaking about myself sometimes. But yeah, OK, so I get that. So then how did you get from there into tourism? So I mean, basically, all of my vacations, as you say in America, or my holiday time, when I wasn’t working in the oil industry, I would look for the next adventure, climb Kilimanjaro, trek to Everest Base Camp, climb the Halt Route in Switzerland across the glaciers.
traveled across Alaska for a summer. I mean, I just like none of my, none of my vacations were beach, like I never, I couldn’t sit on a beach. And then I realized, around about the time I met my husband, I was thinking, well, I really, and I traveled with some adventure travel companies, you know, run by couples or run by people who had a passion. And I thought, you know, I think I could do this. But I’m not sure where to do it or how to start.
And in fact, what happened was I was working through the oil industry, I was working a lot with the Balkans, with Croatia, with Montenegro, with Serbia, with Bosnia, because of a contract we had in the business. And that’s how I got to know this region, I got to know Montenegro. And that was kind of opened the door, if you like, to setting up here. I’m curious. So it sounds like it made sense. I can see where it makes sense. I’m
doing a lot of work in this region. I like to travel. Was it strictly just convenience or would you say that Montenegro had some other deeper meaning or deeper calling for you? Or was it just fortuitous that it just happened to be an area that you were already making connections with, you knew something about, I’m just curious, like how much of that was, you know.
Jason Elkins (07:13.546)
Yeah, I would say it was kind of 50-50. So as I said, mentioned I met my husband around that time. He’s also a lifelong adventurer. He worked in marketing. He was all of his adventures, a lot of scuba diving, yacht sailing. And he was also ready to kind of leave London and office life and the rat race and have a new adventure.
And I actually brought him out to Montenegro for a short holiday. Some colleagues of mine from my business were here and called me and said, hey, come down. Haven’t seen you for a while. And we came out here and it was actually wasn’t through my eyes, but it was through my then partner. Now my husband, it was through his eyes. He just looked around here in Montenegro and he said, where are all the yachts? Where are all the boats? Where are the people? Where are the hikers? Like there was it was a blank canvas. There was really.
very limited tourism here. They’ve been through a very tough period with the Balkans conflict in the nineties and hadn’t really recovered. So it was like, you know, starting from scratch. And he just looked at it and said, wow, the potential of this place to develop adventure tourism is huge. And so suddenly I started to see it, not from the, through the eyes of a place that I worked in, but a place that I could actually live in and start a business. Ah, it’s sometimes it’s really helpful to look through somebody else’s eyes, isn’t it?
Because we get so like, because our stories in our head, whatever our story is in our head is just generally what we kind of walk through life with. And when somebody else says something that causes us to question it or see it in a new light, all of a sudden it’s like, OK. Or sometimes it’s just if somebody, like you could be thinking, I know I’ve had this experience. Like, I think this is a pretty cool idea. I think it’s pretty cool. Pretty cool, pretty cool. But until somebody else actually says the words outside of their head, because that’s in my head.
But then when I hear the words coming from somebody else, hey, this place is pretty cool. You think? Oh, you think so too? And it’s like it gives you permission to all of a sudden open up to the possibilities. So it sounds like you guys are a great fit for each other. Yes. Yeah. OK. And before we go any further, if you hadn’t already mentioned the Balkans specifically, I’m curious how many people that are listening to this.
Jason Elkins (09:40.582)
If you had not mentioned the Balkans, and if it was all we’d said was, Black Mountain, Montenegro, I’m just curious how many people would get that. You probably have more experience with people having this conversation than I do. What’s your best guess? Let’s take the average. Cause you work with American clients as well. Yes. I get my head around that a little easier. On average, what do you think the typical American person sitting somewhere in the States, what percentage of them?
could get maybe even the right continent, but get really close to where Montenegro is. I mean, I think now, I think nowadays a lot more, but talking 10, 15, 17 years ago, when we set up very few, maybe 10%. 10% back then or now? Back then, back then. Now I would say probably maybe 40, 50%, maybe 60, I’m not sure. Oh, I think you’re very, I think you’re so nice.
I think you don’t want to offend anybody listening to this. And I’m not trying to offend anybody either, but I actually think it’s, and the reason I wanted to go this direction and have this conversation is because I know there’s people listening. And this is an adventure travel podcast. These people like to travel. I love to travel. I’ve been to 30 some countries. And I mean, it’s a little bit of a, I just kindly.
finally kind of figured out where Macedonia is. I’m not gonna, I’m complete, complete open. You know, I met somebody last summer, I think in South America or something that said they’re from Macedonia. I’m like, wow, just couldn’t even get, just honestly it was kind of clueless. And I worked in the tourism business. So tell us, tell us where is Montenegro? How big is it? What can you share with us to help us get our head around the country of Montenegro before we go any further?
Okay, for sure. Well, just going back to what you said about where, you know, how many people would know where it is, the most common misconception is that we’re in South America. We’re not in South America. If people think, oh, Montenegro, the most common question is, is that South America? We’re not. We’re actually in what’s called the Western Balkans. And a lot of
Jason Elkins (11:55.186)
older generation people that I speak to from around the world, if I then say, well, Montenegro was part of the former Yugoslavia, then they say, oh, of course, I know where it is. And many people will say, yes, well, I’ve been, I went to Yugoslavia. But obviously, Yugoslavia broke apart. It was comprised of Montenegro, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Slovenia, you know, all formed together and it broke apart. So a lot of people
be familiar with Yugoslavia maybe from the 70s or 80s, but they won’t be so familiar with maybe Montenegro which was the smallest of the sort of republics within the kingdom of Yugoslavia. Okay, and how small is small or how big is small? Small, so how big is small? Well, so we’re both… This is the Big World Made Small podcast, so we got to figure out some way to get your definition to fit that, okay?
Right. Well, if I can just play with the words, I think Montenegro is probably a small world made big. And I’ll tell you why. Ooh, okay. Love it. Small world made big. We’re only 5,000 square meters. That’s approximately the size of Northern Ireland. Okay. So if you think of Northern Ireland, that’s how big Montenegro is, with only 180 miles coastline. However, we are actually- So would you say Northern Ireland?
Would you say Northern Ireland? Yeah, because I think there’s not a whole lot of, maybe some people don’t, can’t get their head around that. I think in Northern Ireland, it’s gotta be like the size of what, Connecticut? Or do you have a frame of reference for in the US? It’s probably, I’m gonna say that. I might be wrong. Small. Yeah, 5,000 square meters. However, we are the fifth most mountainous country in the world. That is…
the fifth most mountainous by percentage area covered by mountains, not by height. But we do have some high mountains. We have over 200 mountains that are higher than 2000 meters, which is your what, 6000 feet. So we are a very mountainous country. And there is a joke that if you ironed the country flat, we’d be bigger than Russia because of all our mountains. Actually, I love that. That’s, that’s good. I’ve never.
Jason Elkins (14:17.25)
heard that about any country. That puts it into perspective. Especially if you flatten it out. So wow, okay. So what’s the largest city in Montenegro? So the largest city is the capital city, Podgorica, and that city sits in a kind of basin. It’s not by the sea. It’s surrounded by mountains. It’s some of really very limited area of actually flat land that we have in Montenegro.
Another fun fact is that Montenegroan people are very tall, genetically, historically, I don’t know how you call it. They make great basketball players. Basketball is the national sport. We also have a joke that it’s a national sport because the basketball court is quite small and we don’t have enough flat space to put football pitches. So. Okay, all right. I’m starting to get the picture.
How big is the city? What’s the population? Yeah, 200,000 people. And Montenegro in total has 650,000 people. We do not even have a million people. So we’re a country which is the size of a small city. What do you like most about the people? I mean, you mentioned a few characteristics. You mentioned one is they like basketball and they’re tall. But I’m guessing that’s not what you like most about them.
if you if you were to describe you know you will love the people from Montenegro because don’t like because of their hospitality because of their genuine warmth because of their pride in their culture because of their pride in their food because of their pride in their country and they have a great sarcastic sense of humor which really fits with the British sense of humor I love it and
Jason Elkins (16:13.138)
And the people here are just really genuine, really go out of their way to help you. And they really, they appreciate life and what’s important. They love family. They really look after each other. It’s a really nice society to live in. Is it a…
Is there still some religious influence there? Is, I mean, do you tell us a little about the cultural aspect of it around religion? Are there big churches there? Is it, or does that kind of go away for a while and not really come back or? Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, during the Yugoslav times under communism, you know, the church wasn’t very predominant. It has had a resurgence, predominantly Christian here. That’s the Slavic Orthodox Church.
so similar to the Slavic Russian Church or Greek Orthodox, that kind of type of religion. But we also have in some areas of Montenegro, you know, Muslim populations, it’s quite common in a town to have a Catholic Church, an Orthodox Church, and a mosque, all within sight of one another. And would you say that within… Yeah, I’m sorry to interrupt. I was…
Because I know that part of the whole Balkan conflict, there was some religious underpinnings, or maybe it was all religious underpinnings. I’m not sure. So I guess that’s where I wanted to go with that question. And when I heard you say there’s churches, maybe mosques, Christian Catholic, I mean, do they all get along now? How would you describe that? Right? OK. Yeah, they do. Yeah, I kind of gathered that. Nowadays, nowadays, in Montenegro, certainly,
they do. It’s a more modern society now, tourism plays a huge part, tourism is the biggest gross national revenue in Montenegro anyway. And church is important to a lot of people. And there are some issues around that, but it doesn’t kind of, you know, overbearing society generally, I don’t feel so. Okay. It’s a very tolerant society.
Jason Elkins (18:28.246)
So I asked you, you’re gonna love the Montenegrin people because, and you filled in the blank. So now the other, I guess the flip side of that question is, I love the Montenegrin people and fill in the blank was difficult for me when I started my business because I didn’t know how to handle it. I don’t know if I asked that question very well, but what maybe what were some surprises that I hear that you love the people there, the culture, and with any place there’s always a surprise curve ball like.
there. So for example, there’s dead fast family connections and the significance on family makes it hard to hire somebody because of XR. I have no idea what your answer is going to be. But you know what I’m saying? I understand what you’re saying. I mean, luckily, luckily for I mean, one of the big things that I think people would struggle here with setting up a business is the bureaucracy, the amount of paperwork. It’s quite insane. I was kind of used to it because I’d lived in Russia and I was used to
Eastern European mentality and having the piece of paper is more important than what’s on the piece of paper. And there’s 14 different carbon copies of each one, right? Yes. Okay.
Jason Elkins (19:56.829)
Um, I
Jason Elkins (20:13.482)
But back then it wasn’t really a thing. It was just beach tourism. And local people would say, what, you want to, you know, cycle up that mountain and kayak across that bay and then do this? No, no one will come. Nobody wants to do that. Why would somebody pay money for that? Yeah. Exactly. So I think we were a bit ahead of the time and people were quite negative, wishing to be nasty, but just thinking we were a bit crazy really.
They’re just kind of pragmatic. No, that’s not the way we’ve done it in the past. And why would anybody do it? I’ve had some interesting conversations with some tour operators that were kind of like that where they brought something new to an area and everybody thought they were crazy. And now the government has given them grants to continue and to develop even more. I love it. Okay, so that was a very insightful answer as far as you as a tour operator or somebody coming in to do business there.
And I’m curious about the tourists. So like, I’m living the digital known in my lifestyle. I can live and work anywhere. So if I wanted to just book a ticket, get an Airbnb, and hang out there for a few weeks, maybe I either maybe I see some bureaucracy when I get the customs or something, but realistically I’m probably not gonna engage with anybody that’s in that regards. But I will be engaging with the local, just the local people. So what would…
what would maybe I be surprised with or frustrated by, or what would I need to adjust my expectations? Because that’s a better way to put it. Because I personally just want to see it the way it is. But I also realize we need to adjust our expectations. For example, I’m in Columbia right now. And when you’re done eating, they do not bring you the check unless you ask for it. So you could sit there for half an hour thinking, oh, this place, the service is horrible.
But it’s just the way it is. So unless you learn that, that hey, if you want something, you got to raise your hand and ask for it. So that’s an example. So what’s in Montenegro? What is there like that? I think it’s just, I mean, if you’re coming here as a tourist, as a traveler, people love the laid back way of life. Nothing is a hurry. So it’s like you say, well, in Colombia, you wait for the check. Well, here, you’ll probably wait for your food because it’s just slow.
Jason Elkins (22:38.11)
everybody has time, everybody has all the time in the world. And I mean, you know, and I know running a business, we don’t have all the time in the world, we have clients who need to get places and planes to catch and itineraries to deliver and, you know, experiences to be had. But then it’s just very, very laid back when it comes to time here, it doesn’t really mean a lot. And it’s just more important to be relaxed and go with the flow. Like, you know, if they see, you know, you running around, why, why are you running, you know,
One phrase is, Sve Polarko, it means slowly, just, just slow down. So if you’re coming here and you coming here, because you need to get things done, you just have to put yourself in a different mindset that not everything will be achieved at the first try. And just relax, because life is to be enjoyed. And so we’ve had to balance that trying to run a business. But we also embrace that lifestyle as well. So
Cause it’s so funny cause your clients are coming there to experience the culture. And you know, you’re kind of stuck in the middle, like, okay, I’m going to spend half my time explaining to my clients that you’re here for the culture and this is the culture and the other half of the time trying to convince my partners, my vendors, by, you know, restaurants, hotels, that these people over here expect something totally different. So can we try and meet somewhere in the middle, please? And I really like what you said though. I love that you brought the example back around.
food because as you were explaining that I was like yeah that’s so kind of probably easy to explain because if you’re in a culture that’s really in touch with connection, social hospitality, actually good hospitality in a lot of cultures good hospitality is a three hour meal. That’s good hospitality. Right? It’s like look at all the time that you have to spend with your hosts or your family.
What’s the hurry? Like a three hour meal is better than a 30 minute meal. A 30 minute meal might even feel lazy to them. Like we’re not lazy. We’re not gonna rush you out of here in 30 minutes. We’re gonna give you all, you guys can just stay as long as you want and we’ll make it easier by bringing the food real slow. Exactly, yeah, yeah.
Jason Elkins (24:53.694)
That’s, that’s, that’s it. Yeah. And it is it is all about that people are so proud they have grow their own food and, you know, they want you to enjoy the best of it. And so it has to be done properly. And so, you know, a lot of times people will sit down to a meal and they’ll be served a huge amount of food and, you know, myself or my colleagues who are guiding them always have to remember to say, guys, this is not the only course, there is more coming. More coming. And then they have to let them they feel bad because they cut there’s no way they
can eat just what the first course is, let alone the second and the third. So we have done a lot of work with our local suppliers to manage expectations and say, you know, especially, you know, Westerners don’t like to leave food on the plate and they feel bad if there’s waste, you know, and, you know, with our drive in sustainability as well. So we’ve had to kind of say, could you, you know, hospitality is all about making sure nobody ever goes hungry. So of course they put a lot of food out.
Just to make sure. We’re gonna make sure nobody goes hungry. Exactly. And afterwards the family and the cousins, everyone will come and eat the leftovers. But of course people don’t understand that and then they think it’s waste. So we’ve had to work quite hard with suppliers to say maybe just, you know, a bit less food so that people, they won’t leave hungry, we promise. You know, but it’s just, if I can say that we get complaints, like it’s not a complaint, but the thing is…
Oh, we felt so bad. There was so much food. And I mean, here we are running an adventure travel business. And one of the biggest things that surprised us over the years is how people have come to love the food that makes up this culture or in this region because it’s such a
fusion of East meets West and you know so many different you know the Ottomans were here, the Austro-Hungarians were here, the Venetians were here, so you name it, you want great Italian coffee and pasta, you want baklava or you want goulash, it’s all here. So, you know, food has become a big part of our adventure tours. I think it is. I’m sitting here, I haven’t, I have not eaten today yet, so thank you Hayley.
Jason Elkins (27:05.811)
I Was like, oh man, where do I sign up? Because especially when you said baklava, I mean I just immediately Just started watering. That’s like by far my favorite treat actually made it for my team You know in the day I was that guy making baklava for Christmas so I could take it to all the team and I’d give them all these Big boxes of baklava. And of course that meant I got to eat a lot of it as well and feel like you know
That’s a fun memory. I’m sure the food there is, yeah, I can just imagine. Yeah. All right. So we could talk about that. I’m not going to ask you anymore about food. I promise. No. Get away from food. Yeah, so let’s jump into, I want to learn definitely a little bit about specifically what kind of trips you’re offering, what kind of trips you’re the most excited about, what’s coming up this next season.
any new stuff, and then we’re going to shift to kind of more of a general, what’s going on in the guiding world around you and how some programs that you’ve been working on, especially during the time of COVID, when you had the foresight to sit down and say, okay, we’re not spending a lot of time doing this right now. So let’s, let’s actually do something that’s going to work for, you know, the future and sustainability and tourism in general. So let’s start with just specifically Black Mountain, Montenegro.
What are your kind of key experiences that you like to share?
Yep, great. So well, Montenegro being as I mentioned, the fifth most mountainous country in the world, we do a lot of hiking tours. It’s also a great place for biking. And there’s a lot of biking going around now. eBiking is becoming popular here as it is in other places. Clearly up until, you know, fairly recently, we didn’t have eBiking. So if you wanted to come on a biking holiday here, you tended to be French or Dutch and very fit.
Jason Elkins (29:03.494)
because it’s a lot of ascent and then descent. E-biking is a big game changer because obviously it brings biking in the mountains to people like myself who might not be quite so fit to actually pedal myself up, you know, 3000 feet in one go. Yeah, I said our principle is hiking. We do a lot of kayaking in the summer.
kayaking, stand-up paddle boarding, rafting. Montenegro has the Tara Canyon, which is one of the world’s deepest canyons. And we have fantastic whitewater rafting on that canyon. We also do a lot of wild swimming in the lakes, the rivers and the sea. And pretty much- Tell me more about that before we, I heard you say wild swimming. Is that what you said? Yeah, wild swimming. Tell me more about that.
That sounds wild. You know, it’s wild. It’s also a marketing term, isn’t it really? I mean, it’s basically swimming in lakes and rivers and canyons and in the sea. It’s basically not swimming in a swimming pool where you go up and down the rows. And we might be doing a tour that’s pure hiking, but if it’s summertime, like pack your bathing costume because at the end of this tour or halfway through this hike today,
going to come across a mountain lake, you know, and you can just jump in and it’s wonderful, you know. And actually, I think that’s something that a lot of people have not done. I mean, there’s people probably listen to those podcasts that have been kayaking, they’ve been whitewater rafting, whitewater rafting, there’s a chance you’re going to do some swimming if it’s good. Right. But other than that, like, I don’t think there’s that many people that really fully, you know, have had the opportunity to jump into a river and do some sort of.
descent type thing where you’re just kind of swimming down the river. I know I was a fishing guide in Montana for a while, had a drift boat. Right. And especially on some of those hot days, you know, especially if we had younger, younger folks that maybe the fishing was part of it, but not the whole thing, I’d say, you know, it’s a lot of fun is just, you know, strip down to your shorts, whatever you got and just jump in. And I’ll basically just follow you down the river and you just float down the river and it’s so, it’s relaxing. It’s a different experience because.
Jason Elkins (31:25.75)
you get the benefit, you get to see the scenery go by and you’re swimming. And it’s not a lot of effort. So it’s like drift, drift swimming, I guess we could call it that. Drift swimming. Yeah, that’s cool. I’m happy that we mentioned that because I would go do that. Yeah. All right. Yeah. So I mean, I think, you know, we just try we just try and combine interesting activities. And as I say, Montenegro
you know, he’s really grown into a huge adventure destination. And with the mountains, the sea, the canyons, the rivers, the forests, there is the type of terrain here for anybody to do anything. You know, there’s paragliding and there’s climbing, there’s ice climbing, there’s ski touring in winter. You know, we have really a lot to offer for such a small country. Yeah. Do you think there’s one thing in particular that you offer or get involved with that just surprises people more than anything else? So you like, for example, you mentioned
paragliding. I have some experience with that. I think that’s pretty cool. I’m not sure why I’m mentioning that, but is there something like people are like, oh, no way, I would never do that. I have no interest in that. And then once they do it, if they do it, they’re just like, like maybe stand up paddle boarding, it would be an example. I don’t know. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, I, we find quite a lot of people, the people who come, you know, kayaking with us, maybe they’ve kayaked on a, on a
on a slow river or a lake, they really enjoy going sea kayaking. We have a big, big bay area. So we’re kind of like, we’re the sea, but we’re protected, because we’ve got this peninsula that forms part of the bay. So people can get kind of experience of sea kayaking without being too far out at sea. And you’ve got tall mountains all the way around you. We can actually kayak into these former Cold War submarine tunnels.
It’s where the Yugoslav Navy kept their submarines during the Cold War. And tunnels dug into the mountainside. And of course, now they’re derelict, they’re full of graffiti. They look fantastic. And you can paddle into them. And people are absolutely fascinated with that. And they don’t know they’re there. You’ll just we just paddle along and we go for coffee, a little fishing village. And then you just you lead them off and they’re like, where are we going? You kind of disappeared into the mountainside.
Jason Elkins (33:42.854)
on your car in your kayak and, and they follow you in and they’re just blown away by it. You know, that’s cool. I’m happy. I’m happy to ask that question. That’s a, that’s pretty cool. Actually, I would be the same way because that’s all right. Yeah. Very neat. And then you tell them Cold War submarines and then they feel like James Bond’s, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it’s because yeah, that’s pretty cool. So as far and let’s touch real quick on the seasonal.
I didn’t, maybe you did, but I didn’t hear anything in there that I thought sounded specifically like a winter type time activity is that is what it tell me about seasonal stuff. Yeah, summer, European summer, Northern Hemisphere summer is when it all happens when the weather is hot. But we do in Montenegro because we have the mountains, we have four full seasons, we do get generally speaking, a lot of snow in winter.
We do have some skiing, alpine skiing, fairly limited, great for us locals because we can go ski for a weekend, but you wouldn’t fly here from the States for the alpine skiing. However, you might come for the ski touring because going off back country ski touring is becoming incredibly popular. We’ve got some great guides who are very experienced and you can just go really into the back country and experience.
you know, Montenegro and hospitality at its best in a mountain hut in the snow in the middle of winter with the fire burning. And it’s just, yeah, it’s a very special experience and you really get to meet local people that way. So that’s becoming very popular ski touring, yeah, for the winter. Right. So you’ve got me to, you’ve got me where I want to ask a question that I don’t ask everybody because this doesn’t always come up, but okay. So for someone, I think I mentioned earlier if I just wanted to show up there.
Or I don’t remember how I asked it but like if somebody just flew in got an air baby With or without a car what would they like Is it an easy place to get around kind of a do-it-yourself thing? Obviously, they’re not gonna probably go find the submarine caves, you know on Their their day with their rental scooter or whatever I get that But is it like could somebody come there and spend two weeks a month? I just kind of
Jason Elkins (36:07.054)
cruising around doing the, maybe the back, what they traditionally would have called the backpacker thing? Yeah, definitely, definitely. I mean, you know, we’ve got a fairly good bus system. We don’t really have many trains. Like we only have one limited train network. And so it’s generally gonna be buses if you don’t have a rental car or if you’re not going with an agency who’s gonna guide you. Once you get up into the high mountains, then the communities are not so well served by public transport. And then that is when you either need to pedal
or hike or go with a company that can show you the way because or you have to book a private taxi and the local people in the villages are happy to, give people a ride for in exchange for some money, from one village to the next and a lot of accommodation hosts, if you’re staying with them for a few nights, they’ll happily sort you out how to get to the next village. Hook you up with their friends down in the next village or their family members. Absolutely, yeah. And as far as like renting a car, do they or scooters, motorcycles,
just if you would touch on that real quick, all that probably, huh? Oh, yeah. I mean, everybody’s here, Avis and Europe Car and everybody. So in the airport. So it’s yeah. I mean, you know, everything the I mean, I think the only thing we don’t have, I was talking to someone today about it, we don’t have Uber. So we don’t really know what Uber is. We don’t have Uber.
We don’t have Uber and we don’t have McDonald’s. But it sounds like you’ve got, that’s not a knock. That’s actually a draw. That’s fine. I know, I know. Because, you know, I’ve traveled quite a bit and I do use Uber quite a bit because it’s very, very convenient. But honestly, like the places where I find myself where the Uber doesn’t work usually is also the more interesting places. I don’t know how that works like that, but it’s.
If the if the Uber if you open your phone and Uber says we don’t currently have any drivers in this area, you’re probably in a pretty cool area. So I love that. I’ll have to come check that out real quick. What about language issues? Is, you know, English, English speaking person likely to have any challenges, struggles or what should they know? No, generally on the coast where most of the tourism takes place. You know, a lot of a lot of, you know, people who work in tourism know English very, very well.
Jason Elkins (38:25.098)
Also German, French, Italian as well. They speak well. If you go up into the more remote communities in the mountains, more younger generations, they all know English. English is taught in schools from age six, from grade one, to a very high standard. But the older generations, yeah, they might not speak another foreign language. But you know what? Through the medium of food, culture.
pear brandy or grape brandy or homemade wine, language barriers don’t exist. Those are some of the best conversations I’ve ever had where I’m pretty sure there wasn’t a single word that came out of my mouth. They had a clue what I was talking about and vice versa. But you know, that look on that face. And if you try and connect with people like that, in my experience, I find they connect back and you can have an amazing conversation without saying a single word. So.
That’s pretty cool. All right, OK, I’m hooked. That sounds like a place I want to go for sure. And also, you did something pretty fascinating during COVID, because I’ve talked to quite a few operators that did a variety of different things. Some of them really took advantage of the opportunity to say, OK, what can we work on now that we haven’t had time to work on, that we’ve been thinking about, or what opportunities do we see as things open back up?
What do we want to be ready for? And I thought what you did is really cool. So please share some of that with us. Yeah, I mean, so basically I’m involved with a voluntary group, a governance board called the Adventure Travel Guide Standard. Now the Adventure Travel Guide Standard came about long before the pandemic.
it was a collaboration between adventure travel guides and adventure travel business owners to try to create just a point of reference, a framework for adventure travel guides. Obviously the adventure travel industry is one of the fastest growing sectors of tourism both prior to and since the pandemic, you know adventure travel is booming everybody
Jason Elkins (40:38.39)
wants to do now something more, you know, you’ve got transformational travel and, you know, people want to have experiences. So naturally the need for adventure travel guides is also growing. And whilst in some countries you have very well established certification systems for guides like in France and Switzerland, in other countries like Montenegro and many places around the world there’s really no kind of like established
certification or framework for adventure travel guides to kind of feel that what we’re doing a professional job and what skills do we need. So this particular adventure travel guide standard is a resource that was developed as I say by the adventure travel industry with the support of the adventure travel trade association of which I’m a member and really I became involved with them.
on a voluntary basis. And during the pandemic, we actually revised the guide standard, the original one that had been published in 2016. We revised it, updated it, made it more relevant to today’s world because just in five years, the adventure travel industry has just changed and so many new countries coming online as Montenegro did, becoming more well-known, people wanting to travel to new places.
and seek new experiences. So that kind of pause in business for all of us gave us a chance, myself and the other people who were on the governance board to work on this document. And since then really try to do a lot of outreach and look at areas where the adventure travel guides maybe don’t have enough support by the age.
who employ them who don’t understand what an adventure travel guide has to do. Because it’s not just as you know a case of showing people the way from A to B, you have to ensure their safety. So you’re doing risk management, you’re making sure that they’re fed properly. So you might even be cooking for them yourself if you’re up in the mountains, you know, as a guide. You know, you could end up being a marriage counselor if, you know, an apple on your foot falls out. It’s funny you said that because
Jason Elkins (42:56.342)
part-time psychologist or yeah. A nurse, a doctor, a teacher, an educator because you’re also telling about the culture, the history, the environment. You’ve got to be a biologist, know which plant is which. Like the amount of skills that you need to be an all-round adventure travel guide is quite you know something. So I’ve been very
privileged and honored to be involved with this group of great companies from around the world and great guides from around the world, people who’ve got a huge amount of experience. And I just found this is a passion now for me, I just really, you know, having, you know, I work obviously with guides here in the Balkan region, having seen some of the pitfalls for guides, a lot of guides are self-employed, seeing how maybe they don’t get fair wages or they don’t get good support from the agencies they’re working for.
It’s just really made me want to be involved more and to help kind of develop this global standard and let people know about it. It’s all completely free. The resource can be downloaded by anybody from the Adventure Travel Trade Association’s website. If you go to the education tab on their website, you can find the link to the Adventure Travel Guide standard. And it’s just something that I’m involved with now on outreach, letting people know about it. We have an Instagram page
just trying to create a future for adventure travel guides as a serious profession. And I will say here in the Balkans, some of the guides I work with, it’s great young guys and women, their parents will kind of say to them, well, when are you gonna stop messing around and get a real job? I think that’s universal. I think that’s everywhere. Because I definitely, yeah, I’ve heard that. I’m 50 and I’m still hearing that, so yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, so it’s important to support the profession because without the guides, it’s very hard to have adventure tourism done safely, done well. You know, the guide really, you know, I can be at my desk sorting out the admin, the itineraries, I go out and guide when I can, but I don’t get out as much as I would like to and really everything is in their hands, so it’s really great to be able to support them.
Jason Elkins (45:11.194)
Oh, and you mentioned so many of so many of those things are so critical and there’s so many like being a guide is one of the hardest jobs that anybody will ever do. I also personally think it’s one of the most rewarding things a person could ever do. But yes, it’s everything from you know, just even a one man show with a you know, drift boat enough, you know, some fly rods. It’s like, you know, the lunches, the boat transfers, the logistics, the collecting money that
The time on the water, the marriage counseling, oh my gosh, that’s a huge one right there, especially in some things, because you gotta make it fun for everybody, or you have a mixed group of people, and you’re playing kind of like mom, leave your brother alone, get on your side of that chair. You get on yours, because it’s a lot, also very rewarding, and it’s a job.
You know, it is. So, and, oh, and really, I guess where I was going with that was you said, if you don’t have the adventure guides, you know, you don’t have the tours, but realistically like adventure guides are the representative of their home, their country, because the typical person goes, you know, maybe they go on a trip with you. The one person depending on the group dynamics and how many guides are with them, but the person that they’re going to have the most.
interaction with and they’re going to base their opinion of Montenegro on is that guide. You know because it’s with them all the time they’re sharing it anytime you share any sort of experience with people you bond and it’s either you’re either going to walk away from it thinking oh my gosh the people in Montenegro which means give me a name of a guide give me a random a Montenegrin name. Neo, Neo. Oh my gosh the Montenegrin people are amazing.
We spent three days kayaking, bike riding, and Mio was amazing, right? So you see what I’m doing there is it’s like, that Mio is the face and the name of everybody in that country. So that’s why it’s so frigging important because, I’m not gonna use the name Mio again, I’m just some other random name that’s like, oh my gosh, he was grumpy, irritable.
Jason Elkins (47:32.598)
late, all this stuff, they go home and say, you know, Montenegro, it was beautiful, but the people there are just like really not very motivated. They’re grumpy, irritable. And when the tourism boards, they know this. I’m not, you know, I’m not, I’m speaking to the choir, but they know how important it is. So that’s, I love that what you’re doing. And ATTA is all about that. I’m, you know, have participated with them in the past. We’ve got a lot of ATTA members.
I’m going to throw a good plug out there for the adventure travel trade association association. Expect to have a couple of the leadership from the organization here to discuss this stuff as well. So I love that you wanted to have this conversation and when I chat with them, we’ll continue that. And for anybody that’s listening to this, I want to share it because I have the opportunity to see you on my screen and people listening don’t.
And you were excited early on, you were excited when we were talking about Montenegro. But like the energy level just went up four or five levels or more. When we started talking about this and that’s pretty noble because it can be fun and exciting. Talk about tourism and places you like and the country you love. But when you, when you get that excited about something that is really, it’s helping other people. Um, other.
not just other guides, other tour operators, but other customers that you will never see. You know, these are, you are working hard to help adventure travelers that may never visit Montenegro, certainly will never send you a deposit and you’re just as excited or more excited about that. That’s pretty cool. So I’m gonna give you some big kudos for that. Thanks for, you got me excited. I’m like.
I’m sitting here, you’re just watching and listening to you. So I wanted to share that for anybody that can’t see your face. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much. I think I think the adventure travel community is a hugely inspiring place to be. Both both the travelers, the people who work in the industry, the guides. And other things you were saying, you know, the guides are the representative of their country and their culture. They’re also very important stewards of the destination in terms of sustainability and environment. And that’s a.
Jason Elkins (49:52.598)
big thing right now that we’re all facing globally. So yeah, I’m just passionate about it all. I work with some absolutely amazing guides and yeah, we all have a great energy when we get together and the people on the adventure travel, you know, guides down a governance board with people in Argentina, Brazil, Africa, Asia, North America, and we all get together on a call and there’s just great energy and we’re all.
just, you know, we feel like a family and a community because we have this thing in common called adventure travel where we go and just do like crazy things and take people along for joy. I love it. I want to join the board. Can you, can you help someone make that sounds? It just sounds right up my alley. I love that. I just as listening to you, I’m sitting there. I’ve got all kinds of ideas rolling in my head. Oh, well, maybe we can use, you know, I, you.
You all are way ahead of me, but I’m like, oh, let’s figure out how to have more conversations on Zoom and stuff like that. I know you’ve already like figured this all out. You don’t need me to help, but I just got excited listening to you. So thank you for sharing that. Hayley, it’s been a real treat. And before we wrap it up here, what did I forget to ask you? What should I have asked you that I didn’t ask you? Or what is there that you just wanna make sure that everybody listening to this hears before we wrap?
I think you asked me a great spread of questions really, honestly, I don’t think you forgot anything. I’m just, you know, so happy to be here today and to share a little bit about Montenegro. And I would just say to anybody who hasn’t visited the Western Balkans, Montenegro, Croatia, Albania, Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, which Jason has just found out where it is. Jason Blige Now I know where it is. That’s embarrassing.
destination. There
Jason Elkins (52:13.182)
take you up on that. I look forward to it. And if your team is as energetic as you are, and just passionate about what you do. I’m like, I can’t imagine having a bad exam. I feel like I could probably go with your team to Iowa. And I’m not knocking Iowa, but I should not have said that because somebody is going to put note in the comments or give me a bad review on the podcast. But I feel like I could go to Iowa and have an amazing time with anybody on your team, which
which is why you’re doing the guide standard thing, right? Because that’s the thing. If we can create wonderful experiences in many, many places around the world, then we’re making a big world feel just a bit smaller, right? So I’m gonna end on that note. Yeah, thank you so much. Hailey, thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you. Appreciate you taking the time to share with all of us. You have a great day and I’ll see you soon. Thank you so much. Take care. Thanks.
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