Guest Bio
Ingeborg Sæbø Oluka is the founder and managing director of Alakara Reiser in Norway and Alakara Travels in Uganda. She creates group and customized, small-scale journeys that connect travelers with Uganda’s incredible landscapes, cultures, and communities. Driven by a deep passion for meaningful travel and a commitment to dignified employment and economic opportunity, Ingeborg has built Alakara on long-term relationships, regional expertise, and a belief in tourism as a tool for local development and cross-cultural understanding.
Her journey began over 25 years ago as a volunteer teacher and church worker in Soroti, Uganda (1999–2004), which formed the foundation of her connection to the country. She later worked on development aid projects across Africa with The Salvation Army (2007–2012), then transitioned to leadership roles in education and integration within Suldal municipality in Norway (2012–2019).
Since 2020, she has worked with the Norwegian Mission Society—first as an advisor for leadership development, and now as Global Study Coordinator for NMS Global Exchange—while continuing to run Alakara. Across her career, a common thread remains: a commitment to people, purpose, and partnership. Through Alakara, she brings meaningful, responsible travel experiences to life for guests and hosts alike.
Show Summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Ingeborg Oluka, managing director of Alakara, a travel company focused on providing immersive experiences in Uganda. Ingeborg shares her journey from Norway to Uganda, detailing her first life-changing trip to the country and how it inspired her to start a tour business.
The conversation explores the importance of community and conservation in tourism, the impact of COVID-19 on travel preferences, and the diverse attractions Uganda offers beyond gorillas. Ingeborg also discusses the significance of gorilla tourism in conservation efforts and provides insights into the cultural richness of the Karamoja region.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Alakara focuses on providing deep cultural experiences in Uganda.
- ✓ Ingeborg’s first trip to Uganda at 19 was life-changing.
- ✓ The importance of community and conservation in tourism.
- ✓ COVID-19 shifted travel preferences towards custom trips.
- ✓ Uganda offers diverse attractions beyond gorillas, including hiking and cultural experiences.
- ✓ Gorilla tourism is a significant part of Uganda’s conservation efforts.
- ✓ Permits for gorilla tracking are essential and must be booked in advance.
- ✓ Traveling in Uganda requires understanding local conditions and safety.
- ✓ Karamoja is a culturally rich region worth exploring.
- ✓ Ingeborg emphasizes the importance of guided tours for safety and experience.
What You’ll Find on Alakara Travels
- ✓ Custom small-group journeys through Uganda
- ✓ Emphasis on cross-cultural exchange and community connections
- ✓ Expert local guides and long-term partnerships with Ugandan communities
- ✓ Trips that support dignified employment and local development
- ✓ Destinations that include wildlife, hiking, and cultural immersion
- ✓ Focus on responsible, sustainable tourism practices
Learn more about Alakara Travels and connect with Ingeborg at:
https://alakaratravels.com/
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Jason Elkins (00:01.006)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. Today we’ve got Ingeborg Oluka here with us. She’s the managing director of Alakara. Ingeborg, so nice to see you again. Happy to have you on the show.
Ingeborg S Oluka (00:17.271)
Thank you, Jason. It’s nice to be here.
Jason Elkins (00:19.886)
Super excited to have a conversation with you today, because I know you’ve got a fascinating story. We’re going to spend most of our time talking about kind of your story, how you got from where you were to where you are now. Excited to hear that. And before we do that, let’s give our listeners kind of the, I don’t know, 60 second elevator pitch about Alakara So they kind of get an idea of what you do, and then we’re going to go figure out how you got to that point.
Ingeborg S Oluka (00:44.653)
Thank you. Alakara is a small travel company that focuses on Uganda. And we help people experience the country in a deeper way. It’s not just about gorillas and safaris. It’s also about hiking, rafting, cultural experiences, human connection. So our goal is to show travelers that Uganda is more than an adventure and more welcoming than they expect.
And also we have a very strong commitment to the local communities and conservation in Uganda so that the trips have positive impact. That might be a little over 40 seconds, but well.
Jason Elkins (01:23.086)
Very cool. I’m ex yeah, no, no, that was, that was perfect. And I’m excited. I definitely want to get back to that in more detail because to be honest with you’re the first person that’s working in Uganda that I, that really specializes in Uganda that we’ve had here on the show. And I don’t know much about the country. I mean, I know gorillas, I know gorillas. That’s pretty much what most people hear. think. so I, I definitely want to learn more about that. You’ve also introduced me to a few other people in the country.
that I’m starting conversations with. I’m excited about that as well. But let’s, you don’t sound or look like you’re from Uganda. don’t know, maybe that’s very, very stereotypical, but I also, and also your name, that type of thing. So let’s figure out how far back do we need to go to kind of understand how you got into this position.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:55.169)
I’m great.
Ingeborg S Oluka (02:04.887)
There it’s not.
Ingeborg S Oluka (02:13.1)
Yeah, think, well, first of all, no, don’t sound, I definitely don’t look like I’m from Uganda. I can speak English like a Ugandan and I probably do, but when I speak to people who non-Ugandans, I try to adjust. I come from Norway. So I usually say that I really love to speak English in Uganda. Of course, I’d learned English in before, but I didn’t really speak it. I didn’t like it at school.
Jason Elkins (02:34.476)
Okay, why is that?
Jason Elkins (02:41.72)
Okay, but you like to speak it in Uganda. I’m just curious about that. Tell me more about that.
Ingeborg S Oluka (02:42.662)
yeah.
Ingeborg S Oluka (02:47.052)
Well, because you know when you learn language at school it’s just a subject. It’s boring. It’s a grammar and filling in the right words in the right spots. But of course the language when you speak it, when you use it for communication, that’s a whole different thing. So anyway…
Jason Elkins (02:51.851)
Okay
Jason Elkins (03:02.218)
I would agree. What, what? Well, hold on though. I, I, I, I’m not afraid to ask questions that make me look like I don’t know what I’m talking about. So I’m going to do it. What language do they typically speak in Uganda?
Ingeborg S Oluka (03:09.516)
Go ahead.
Ingeborg S Oluka (03:14.804)
Well, that is a good question. are more than 50 languages in Uganda. So English is the common, okay, the official language. It’s the language which is taught in schools. And I’ve been mostly in the Northeast and there they are like, okay, you can go to a village and there three different languages from three different language families. So there is a lot of English being spoken also quite far away.
Jason Elkins (03:19.341)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (03:25.207)
Okay.
Jason Elkins (03:41.996)
All right, I just had to ask that. Now let’s go back to, you didn’t like speaking English when you were learning it in school. What else was going on in school?
Ingeborg S Oluka (03:44.181)
It is.
Ingeborg S Oluka (03:48.662)
Great.
Ingeborg S Oluka (03:55.584)
Well, good question.
Well, I was this kind of kid who… a bit nerdy. I liked school, generally. Mostly social sciences, religion, history, those kind of things. Have always interested me. Yeah, but I come from quite a small place in a rural part of southern Norway. And so… We didn’t travel… Okay, we traveled a lot in Norway and a little bit to Denmark and Sweden, Finland.
but I had not really been out of Scandinavia until I was 18. And that’s probably a little bit typical because my first trip elsewhere was to Bosnia in 1998. So the rest of the school went for a school trip to Russia, St. Petersburg, and I went to Bosnia on my own to visit a friend who had been a No. refugee and moved back. So that was interesting. Then the following year I traveled to Uganda.
and I was part of a, I was in a Bible college actually, so we were like five girls traveling together, 19, 20 year olds, and stayed in Uganda for five months and traveled a lot in really, really rural places. It was a lot of fun. was like, for me that was a life changing experience and like since then my life has really been a lot about Uganda. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (05:22.062)
I’m guessing so. It sounds like so you were 19 or 20 then when you went to Uganda the first time. What, so growing up you mentioned you traveled a little bit in Scandinavia. What was your childhood like? you out doing things adventurous or was it mostly, I mean, what did the childhood look like?
Ingeborg S Oluka (05:29.271)
Yeah, I made it.
Ingeborg S Oluka (05:45.268)
Yeah, there was a lot of being outdoors. In Norway we have this thing called friluftsliv, it’s like outdoor living. You go hiking, riding in the mountains, in the forest, canoeing, all those things, and my parents love that, so we do a lot of that.
Jason Elkins (06:01.72)
You called it, what was the phrase she said? In Norway, we have a thing called.
Ingeborg S Oluka (06:06.461)
While in English I think it’s outdoor living. Yeah. So we do a lot of that. yeah. just… Quite a… I think it’s quite a normal following up in the 80s in Norway.
Jason Elkins (06:08.906)
Okay, it’s kind of the outdoor lifestyle. All right. All right.
Jason Elkins (06:19.566)
Did you, so during, yeah, did you have aspirations of doing more overseas travel, living overseas? mean, when was the first moment you thought, geez, maybe someday I’ll live in Uganda and run a tour operation company. I mean, what was.
Ingeborg S Oluka (06:38.789)
Well, not living overseas, but I did want to travel. So when I finished high school, secondary, I applied for this Bible college where we could go and stay abroad for five months. Of course, many schools have this trip for two, three, four weeks, but I really wanted that long term going abroad.
And then Uganda was my first priority when I applied.
Jason Elkins (07:06.572)
What did your parents think about that?
Ingeborg S Oluka (07:11.807)
Well, they didn’t. I think they were okay with it. I think they liked it.
Jason Elkins (07:16.493)
Okay.
Ingeborg S Oluka (07:19.245)
they have this probably this thinking that it’s a good thing to to go out and see new things and experience new places but of course i do believe especially my mom was probably a little bit worried what i learned sometimes not always but yeah
Jason Elkins (07:37.198)
Do you think, you said a lot of the other students went to Russia.
Ingeborg S Oluka (07:42.875)
yeah, that was in secondary school, like we had a school trip. That was like the last year in secondary. And I went to Bosnia.
Jason Elkins (07:45.934)
Oh, okay. Okay. All right. So yeah, well that was, yeah, that was, guess where I was going with that is you chose to go somewhere else. You went, you said you visited a friend. Are there certain like from in your parents’ mind? I was just curious, like in your parents’ mind, because Uganda maybe sounds like it’s a long ways away. I don’t know. I grew up in the States. So growing up in the States, if I said right out of school, I’m going to go to Uganda for five months.
My parents might’ve had a totally different response than if I said, I’m going to go to Canada or Paris or something like that. So I’m just trying to get a feel for did Uganda seem like a reasonable place for you to go for five months or is it just no big deal?
Ingeborg S Oluka (08:31.241)
Well, good question. Well, they didn’t say much. I don’t know exactly what they were thinking, but I think maybe that’s because they wanted me to make the decisions and they didn’t want to hinder me in what I wanted to do. But of course, Uganda, to that generation, when you say Uganda, the first thing they say and probably the only thing they say is, Idyamin.
Jason Elkins (08:44.27)
All right.
It’s just, it’s interesting.
Jason Elkins (08:56.645)
okay.
Ingeborg S Oluka (08:56.735)
And then they might think of the raid on Entebbe somewhere in the 70s, which is like the two big famous things about Uganda apart from gorillas, which wasn’t really famous 25 years ago. So, so yeah, they probably had the worries, but they didn’t really project them on me.
Jason Elkins (09:16.366)
didn’t say much. Well, it’s interesting because I mean, I think that that’s part of why you and I are having this conversation today is because they didn’t project them onto you, whatever they were, I don’t know, but had a lot of conversations. I’ve been around a while and some parents have a really hard time keeping their opinions to themselves. You know, like, well, geez, can’t you just, you know, can’t you just go to Sweden?
Ingeborg S Oluka (09:36.653)
Thank
Jason Elkins (09:42.798)
you know, or they, you know, they say things that make you kind of question yourself and isn’t it great when you’ve got, and then other times on the other end of the spectrum, you’ve got like, Hey, you’re 18. You should probably get out of the house. Now you should go somewhere far away and have it a big adventure and, how can we help you go? And then there’s maybe the parents more like yourself. It’s like, sure. You, if you’re interested in this, we’ll support it, but didn’t say much more than that. It sounds like so.
Ingeborg S Oluka (10:09.106)
Yeah, I think so.
Jason Elkins (10:10.83)
All right, so what happened in Uganda that really, what’s the thing you remember most about that trip that you think influenced you coming back and going that direction?
Ingeborg S Oluka (10:22.295)
Well, that was definitely like the people. The way we were received is like here we are, five really young girls, not knowing a lot about the world and nothing about Uganda. And we were just received in such a beautiful way. We were the first team from our, like, just kind of a pilot. So they had not received any teams like that before, which I think was also a good thing for us.
Yeah, so I mean, we were like, after one week, were singing in a wedding and for Christmas we had so many invitations that we had to kind of go around and spend one hour in so many different places because we couldn’t say no, you know? I mean, yeah, we were really, really included. And up to now, I think that’s the best thing about Uganda. It’s just the people, the culture. It’s a lot of fun. It’s relaxed. It’s a lot of laughing and joking and…
Jason Elkins (11:03.455)
Ingeborg S Oluka (11:23.437)
It’s just a whole different social life.
Jason Elkins (11:26.67)
That’s very, cool. Where did you live? mean, did you stay in the same place the entire five months? What were the accommodations like?
Ingeborg S Oluka (11:35.618)
Yeah, good question. So we had a house in a town called Sorotti, it’s a small town in the northeast. But our work was to… So we working with the local church and they wanted us to help, to join them in showing the Jesus film, which is a movie that was made in the 70s and has been translated into a lot of languages. So they had recently translated it to…
this language, Ahteso. And so every Monday we would go to a village and then we would normally sleep at the home of the priest in that area. So that was really like simple standards. We would bring our mattresses and our mosquito nets and yeah, like showering would be in a bucket outside in the night, you know, just throwing water on yourself. So we’ll stay there from like Monday to…
Thursday or Friday morning and then we go back to town. And I think that’s also what really, know, these memories of sitting outside because you can only show a movie in the night after dark and then sitting outside and you know, the stars and just, you know, that’s all that African night with the sounds and the smells and it’s just so beautiful.
Jason Elkins (12:58.126)
for those of our listeners that are just listening to us and don’t see your face on the screen. I just want to convey that I see your eyes lit up and that your cheek muscles are all tight and you’re smiling so big as you, as you recall these memories. that’s a, just, just watching you makes me think, my gosh, I clearly need to go there. and, I want to hear more about the experience because that’s a unique experience. I could go to Uganda. I’m not going to have the same experience you had.
Ingeborg S Oluka (13:16.799)
you do? You do?
Jason Elkins (13:27.726)
On that trip, that sounds very, unique. One, it was a while ago. And as you mentioned, you were like the first group of not, not necessarily foreigners, but on this type of project, suspect a lot. Well, I don’t know. I’m going to ask you this. I don’t care. I’ll ask. I suspect that five white girls from Norway show up in Uganda. Probably the first opportunity for a lot of the locals that you met to have conversations with.
people of your background. that a fair statement? Okay. Okay. Yeah. did the, so many questions that just roll around in my head.
Ingeborg S Oluka (13:58.126)
Yes, it is.
Jason Elkins (14:12.14)
What, boy, what other than the people, the P I hear the people, I get that. That’s obviously the thing. I know what I don’t want. What I wanted to ask you. You said it was five of you. So were the other four isn’t if I was speaking to the other four right now about their experience in Uganda, would they be all lit up like you are? Do you think I mean, I know you don’t really.
You didn’t have, you didn’t have anybody in the group like, Oh my gosh, I want to go home. This is, this is horrible. Or you were all on board.
Ingeborg S Oluka (14:43.647)
No, we’re all on board. Of course, we were different and like two of us, whenever we had time off, we would always be out and about and visit people and two or three and then some others would probably like to stay more in the house. yeah, if you ask them now, I think all of them would say something similar to me. But of course, not all of them have kind of continued with Uganda the way I have.
Jason Elkins (15:10.478)
Well, that was, that was the second part. And I don’t know if you’re still in touch or how long you were still in touch, but can you, do you, do you know any of, have any of them branched into adventure, travel, tourism, any of that stuff, as far as you know, or you’re, are you just the one that just like totally jumped in with both feet?
Ingeborg S Oluka (15:30.185)
No, not tourism, but a few of them have been back many times. One is a professor of African literature now and she keeps going back to Uganda. And yeah, and at least one more kept going back for quite a while. But of course then life happens and sometimes it’s not always so easy to get the time and money to travel to Uganda.
Jason Elkins (15:38.014)
cool.
Jason Elkins (15:50.712)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (15:54.328)
But what I get out of this conversation so far is that it was a life-changing event for you. And it sounds like at least a few of the other girls. So when you’re talking to, we can talk about your family stuff. I don’t know what’s going on there, but what’s your advice to parents with 18 year old daughters that are getting ready to graduate high school? Do you just kind of let them pick and choose and just kind of…
not really share your thoughts and feelings or are you on that one end of the spectrum? Like, do you need to go do this something somewhere really different or would you approach it differently than your parents did, I guess?
Ingeborg S Oluka (16:36.557)
Of course a little bit different probably but but like I have a son who is now 18 and a daughter is 15 so I would think it’s relevant. Yes, so I would think I I would do some background checks and I mean, it’s not all organizations or all kind of People who send young people to I mean, I think at that young age there should be some kind of system I mean, there should have some kind of
Jason Elkins (16:43.872)
Okay, so that’s relevant.
Ingeborg S Oluka (17:04.013)
framework and not just go completely on their own to places which I I’ve traveled a fair bit and last two years ago I was in Asia for the first time and I went to Bangkok and I was like you know that’s a whole different thing to travel to Bangkok because with kind of with what you know as a Norwegian or European you can get around you can find a way you know but when you come to Uganda or Cameroon or you know some of these countries
you really need something, some kind of safety net, someone who can pick you up in the airport and who kind of knows where to introduce you. Because it’s quite hard for, I would say, a European, Western young person to navigate in some of these places.
Jason Elkins (17:56.302)
Okay, that makes a lot of sense because I think a lot of Europeans will do the, guess we would describe it as the gap year or, you know, the finished school and they go somewhere for, you know, backpacking or whatever. And so what I hear you saying, it’s okay. Yeah. If they’re doing that through Europe, it’s quite common. You know, they’re going to run into a bunch of other backpackers, even really even a lot of places in Latin America, Southeast Asia, they’re going to see that. But what I think I hear you saying is maybe
Ingeborg S Oluka (18:13.954)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (18:25.834)
Africa, I don’t want to put it all in one bucket because it’s a big continent. But I don’t know, help me out here. Is that what you’re saying is maybe some of these countries you need to think ahead a little bit more?
Ingeborg S Oluka (18:35.201)
Well.
I would say so. Not because it’s necessarily more dangerous, but because the society works in such a different way and if you don’t have any experience with navigating in a place like that, may end up with… Maybe nothing bad may happen, it may, but you just won’t have a very nice experience.
Jason Elkins (19:01.038)
you’re just not going to get the same level of depth of experience.
Ingeborg S Oluka (19:02.669)
If you come on your own to Rengsev Airport and then you just find your way to some random place and you you might have a really good time but you might also miss out on a lot of the best.
Jason Elkins (19:15.854)
All right. So here’s, there’s, there’s just a question just popped into my head. If somebody is listening to this and has teenage children and they’re intrigued by this conversation, um, could somebody reach out to you and say, Hey, I want to send my kids to Uganda. Could you make a referral? Could you, are you aware of any of these organizations? I suspect, you know, a lot of people that could probably help with something like that. All right. Very, cool.
Ingeborg S Oluka (19:31.776)
Absolutely.
Ingeborg S Oluka (19:35.436)
Yeah, absolutely. They could reach out. It is a beautiful place to go as a young person. And like I said, people are extremely welcoming, extremely friendly. mean, really, I’ve traveled a lot. I don’t think I’ve been to any other country where people are that friendly and welcoming. is… Yeah.
Jason Elkins (20:00.706)
All right, that’s very cool. So I want to go back to kind of that point you did the five months in Uganda. We know you ended up back there, but what happened in between to kind of shape all that? Because I suspect there were a lot of steps.
Ingeborg S Oluka (20:10.252)
Thank you.
Ingeborg S Oluka (20:15.189)
yes, there many steps. So after I came back to Norway, I just wanted to go back. So I worked and studied for like six, seven months and then I went back for one year. And I was working as a volunteer, of mostly in the primary school. Then I went back to Norway, I continued studies and then I did…
Jason Elkins (20:27.479)
OK, that was quick.
Ingeborg S Oluka (20:42.983)
I got my university to approve a semester abroad in Uganda for me. So I did a semester in a university in Uganda. And so on and so forth, back and forth for the next, like from, yeah, until I finished my master. was about eight years in total because I always traveled. I did a master of development management. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (21:03.32)
What were you studying?
Jason Elkins (21:08.622)
Okay, so what is development management?
Ingeborg S Oluka (21:12.721)
It’s a combination of development studies, which is really political science and with a bit of economy, but focusing on the developing world. And then with the management aspect, there was a bit of management and leadership.
Jason Elkins (21:32.502)
And I, I take it you chose that particular path of majors and stuff like that, because you saw how well that would tie in with Uganda. Cause it sounds like you were already kind of set on Uganda.
Ingeborg S Oluka (21:43.232)
Yeah, and it was really also just because I found it very interesting. Yeah, so but yeah, and also it was an online master, which was quite rare those days. So then of course, I could study from Uganda.
Jason Elkins (22:01.656)
Gosh, okay. So you get your masters and then did you make them? Well, tell us, I don’t want to quite get to where you’re at now, but how’d you get from master’s degree to where you’re at?
Ingeborg S Oluka (22:14.285)
Okay, some years after the first time I went to Uganda, I met my husband. And so just after the mass, I finished the master, we got married and then we moved to Norway. And then kind of life happened. had children, we built a house and you know, we didn’t really travel so much. Then in
Jason Elkins (22:36.738)
Let’s talk about this. I’m curious if you’re willing to share. What was that like for him to adjust to being from Uganda and moving to Norway? Cause I imagine that might be a challenging adjustment for some people.
Ingeborg S Oluka (22:50.157)
Yes, it is. think for almost all people. It is a big adjustment and it has been a journey, I would say. It’s not… What can I say? You know, it’s been a great time. I mean, when you come as a highly educated African with a lot of work experience and then you come to Norway and the only jobs you can get are like…
Jason Elkins (23:04.513)
You don’t have to say anything. I’m just curious.
Ingeborg S Oluka (23:17.887)
assistant or something, you know, in the beginning. That’s really hard. But of course, with time, it picks up. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (23:25.582)
Did he, did he like Norway in the beginning? mean, well, again, tell me as much as you want, I mean, cause it’s kind of cold or there maybe not quite as much sunlight.
Ingeborg S Oluka (23:29.515)
No.
Ingeborg S Oluka (23:35.453)
yes, the day I arrived it was like minus 16 degrees Celsius, so I didn’t like that.
Jason Elkins (23:44.654)
He must really love you. I think Norway is probably a great place. I haven’t been there either, but yeah, yeah.
Ingeborg S Oluka (23:47.086)
Yeah, it is a great place. So now it’s like, okay, we talk about it quite a lot. Okay. In some ways, it’s probably become quite a bit Norwegianized in the way you think, you you get used to things working, you know, a way everything is quite smooth, systems work and it’s just easy. And in Uganda, it’s like, gosh, just opening a bank account is like, it’s a three months process. And like,
Jason Elkins (24:02.67)
Uh-huh.
Ingeborg S Oluka (24:15.949)
I wish you had this login and you just use your electronic ID and things have sorted, you know. So of course, two different worlds.
Jason Elkins (24:23.278)
Two different worlds. Yeah, absolutely. All right, so how did the idea come up to start your business and get involved in tourism?
Ingeborg S Oluka (24:39.829)
Yeah, so actually like you probably heard the first years I was in Uganda I never went to… Okay, the very first time I did go to Martelgun. So me and one of the other girls, we climbed to the top of Martelgun, which is a volcanic mountain on the border between Uganda and Kenya. And the peak is 4,321 meters above sea level. So that was like the only tourist thing I did for the first number of years.
Then in 2015, when our children were like five and seven, we were going to Uganda for the summer and we were like, you know, we need them to like Uganda. We need to do something really nice together. Because, you know, when you just go and visit family and especially with young children, if you stay one week here, one week there, it’s like when they’re just starting to get comfortable in the place, you move on. So it was a bit stressful to travel with young children. So we decided to go for safari.
Until that, my only safari experience was in a big bus in Kruger on tarmac roads. And I was like, I don’t understand why people are so mad about safari because it felt like it just felt like driving around a zoo, to be honest. So I went to Marches and Falls National Park and we had this wonderful game drive with the ranger guide from Uganda Wildlife Authorities was like
Yeah, he was about to retire. He had a lot of experience. He was so good. And you know, he would spot any small and big thing and just just the bird flying by and it tells you all about this bird you’ve hardly seen, you know, but you know, he has seen it and also so it was such a wonderful experience. And and that really was probably the start. And then two years later, we had my parents visiting us, OK, traveling with us and to Uganda. And we were like, OK, let’s go to Merches and Falls.
Jason Elkins (26:21.934)
Mm-hmm.
Ingeborg S Oluka (26:40.013)
We did and then in between there we had also started a farm and we went there with my parents and at that time it was like the house it was just like one house and the compound was extremely muddy when it was raining and you know there was like a pit latrine outside and very very simple but it was interesting they liked it we liked it and and so we said
So when they left, were like, maybe we should start up something. And I was also in the process of, we have always thought that we want to move back to Uganda. And my husband has started some businesses which are doing really well. And he’s like, but what are you going to do? I mean, you can’t just go to Uganda and be a housewife. I’m like, no, I wouldn’t like that. And I was always like, okay, I was first in the development world, if we can say, but at some point I…
Jason Elkins (27:29.358)
you
Ingeborg S Oluka (27:39.758)
I kind of lost faith in this NGO and development projects it creates in the whole way it makes people think, know, there’s that dependency mindset, which I think is really destructive really. So because I was thinking like I could be a consultant, but for development projects and things like that, but I was like, no, I don’t want to do that. And also have this thing that I don’t want a job which in Uganda, which a Ugandan could do much better than me.
Jason Elkins (28:09.166)
Mm-hmm.
Ingeborg S Oluka (28:09.997)
So just because I’m from Aoteu get this job and it’s not nice. So I was like, OK, what I do with my background, with my experience, which no one else really can do. So when my parents had left that time, I had actually gone to the beach in Anteba. Yeah, we’re taking the kids and then I just sat down. I got this idea and I was like, I need to go to a shop and buy a book and a pen so I can sit and write and make some calculations and find out.
Jason Elkins (28:36.087)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ingeborg S Oluka (28:39.928)
So I did that and I was like okay I was just trying to price a tour so if I make this trip like this what will it cost and what can I sell it for? I was like well it can actually make some money. So that’s how the idea came about and then we also decided at the farm that we have when we went back there the same year let’s put up some guest cottages.
Jason Elkins (28:52.376)
Okay.
Ingeborg S Oluka (29:06.177)
This round local style, a little bit improved local style, but with grass-touched roofs. So we did that. And then I started, we came back to Norway, I started a company. I was just advertising on Facebook with my network and we got actually two groups who wanted to travel the next summer, 2018. And so we started. And the guest cottages, well, that was crazy, I think.
I think I finished touching the roof like three hours before we arrived with the visitors. But it worked. did work. yeah, and it was really nice experience. And we did the same in the summer of 19. So in the beginning, it was just that. was like a couple of trips per year. I was the tour leader taking people around the country. And that was fun. And then it was, yeah, no, I’m just telling the whole story. Maybe you want to ask something.
Jason Elkins (29:40.374)
You
Jason Elkins (30:00.11)
You know, when I, well, I do have a question. When you, when I asked you what your parents thought about you going to Uganda the first time, you’re like, well, I’m not really sure. They really didn’t say much. So now the same question, what did your husband think about you starting a tour business and setting up cottages on, at the farm and, and all that.
Ingeborg S Oluka (30:25.709)
Well, no, he’s all in and everything like setting up cottages and things. That’s him. I don’t really have the… Yeah, so the company itself, course, both of its owners, like the tour operations, I do 99 % of that. But when comes to things happening on ground in Uganda, and especially like at the farm, that’s really deep in the village.
Jason Elkins (30:32.084)
Okay, so he was excited. So this is something you guys were doing together. He was excited.
Ingeborg S Oluka (30:54.739)
even if I do speak a bit of the local language and I’m you know I can’t really it would be really really hard for me to do those projects so he is the main person in that.
Jason Elkins (31:07.618)
Now, did he grow up right there near the farm? Is that his, his home area or I mean, other than it’s the same country, but it’s, he didn’t grow up right there.
Ingeborg S Oluka (31:15.757)
No, it’s not his home area, but it’s still in the same area where they speak that language.
Jason Elkins (31:21.388)
Okay. All right. All right. Very, cool. So you started promoting some trips on social media, Facebook. It sounds, think you said, got some groups and, then you started. Yeah. Why does that always come up in every conversation on this show? I don’t know. It kind of, kind of had an impact, didn’t it? all right. So where were you going into COVID?
Ingeborg S Oluka (31:34.977)
And then Covid happened.
Ingeborg S Oluka (31:42.271)
I wonder.
Okay.
Jason Elkins (31:50.722)
What did things look like for you from your perspective?
Ingeborg S Oluka (31:55.766)
Yeah, well that’s a good question. At that time I was trying to develop, like to increase the number of tours per year. But I think that’s also, so it’s hard to say, was it COVID, was it like a natural development?
Well, no one knows. But that’s what I was thinking. Like, okay, I was still having this model that, you know, I take people on trips. What happened after COVID, which I think is quite common when I talk to others, is that this kind of scheduled group tours became really hard to fill up. And more and more people, like I got, but then I also got more requests like, okay, we are going to Uganda.
Jason Elkins (32:39.598)
Yeah, I’m hearing that. Yeah.
Ingeborg S Oluka (32:48.909)
We hear you can make a program. you? So more like tailor-made? Exactly.
Jason Elkins (32:53.378)
more the tailor-made custom departures. Why do you think that, what’s your take on that? Cause this has come up a few times. I’ve been hearing this and I’m curious what your take on it. Why did people not want to go with group departures?
Ingeborg S Oluka (33:01.559)
and
Ingeborg S Oluka (33:08.599)
Honestly, I don’t know. I just know that’s how it is.
Jason Elkins (33:11.662)
That’s just, that’s just what you saw. I mean, I, you know, we’d, we’d had some conversations about maybe just the impact of COVID on people’s thought processes about things. It’s like, I don’t know when I’m going to be able to go some, well, let me, let me back up. Sometimes the group trips in order to fill them and market them, we, we might set them further in advance. So you might say, okay, if I’m going to fill the whole group.
Ingeborg S Oluka (33:20.661)
And then.
Ingeborg S Oluka (33:34.167)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (33:36.748)
I better give myself a year to do it. So I pick a date next year. I start promoting that while at the same time you’ve got customers on the other side of it, looking at it, saying after coming through COVID, I don’t want to wait. If I have an opportunity, I’m going to go now because you don’t know what’s going to come any year from now. So maybe I suspect if you, I suspect that if you looked at the stats, it’d be like people are booking, you know, with less notice. It’s like, okay, I’m ready to go now. I’ve,
Ingeborg S Oluka (34:04.087)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (34:06.572)
Got my family on board, my friends, whatever, they’re all staying there. So we’re going to go in two months instead of wait for a year. Even if waiting for the year meant that I got to join a group, maybe it’s a little less expensive. Maybe there’s other benefits to going with the group, but I don’t know. that, does that sound about right?
Ingeborg S Oluka (34:24.413)
What could be part of it? But also I think maybe it’s part of that whole thing of going in a group that more people would like to go with only their family or only their group of friends or And also when we have this group just like we had before And also last year we’ve had like a family Safari which were kind of marketed and and was made to fit families And that has been popular, but I think that also, you know
Jason Elkins (34:32.61)
Yeah.
Ingeborg S Oluka (34:52.927)
It’s in the summer holiday, obviously. But then some kids are going for this camp and this football tournament. somehow, you know, it’s like, so had quite a number of people that really loved, we would love to go, but this year is not possible because of ABCD. And so of course, that’s also the kind of the downside of scheduled tours is like, OK, you have people who really want to go, but then they’re not able to go to those particular dates. then, yeah, so I’m really I’ve started to move away from.
Jason Elkins (35:16.235)
Mm-hmm.
Ingeborg S Oluka (35:22.029)
that and also of course, what can I say? Yeah, but I think after COVID has been really an interesting time. We are developing in a different way than we expected. So what we did last year was that we registered a company in Uganda. So now we have like our own DMC that we’re developing in Uganda. And also on the Norway side, I’ve gotten some new…
can say partners, people I work with. So I have one guy who is like he is a Norwegian married to Ugandan and he has been a professional safari guide for many many years. has been like a part, was part of developing the gorilla tourism in the beginning. So we do have some group trips with him and he’s a photographer so people are into wildlife photography, birding, all these kind of things.
So we have that. But more and more it’s like the tailor-made custom rips.
Jason Elkins (36:29.358)
I’m curious. I hear that loud and clear and I’m curious if you had somebody call you and said we can go anytime.
Cause there’s some advantages to group trips. That’s what I’m trying to work around too. Is like, what’s the upside of doing a group trip and maybe let’s say a family of four to make it a little bit more closer to the breakeven. I’ve got a family of four or we can go anytime flexible. easy to get along with. should we do a customized one because we see your group tour. looks great. Should we do that or should we do one on our own? what’s that conversation typically look like? Like what are the benefits of going with the group?
Ingeborg S Oluka (37:11.425)
I think especially maybe for families, it’s a big benefit of going with other families because the kids have a lot of fun. At least that has been the experience with the groups we’ve had. And we’ve been kind of lucky that each group has had like kids around the same age, so like different families within same age brackets. So they have really had a lot of fun together. So that is one big advantage. And also for the adults, you know, you don’t, yeah.
Jason Elkins (37:19.758)
Mm-hmm.
Ingeborg S Oluka (37:39.758)
I mean socially it’s a whole different thing. So if you’re someone who really loves to be with people and get to know new people a group trip is great. And of course also for a family, families are often quite price sensitive. of course if you’re in a, I mean when I price a group schedule, a scheduled group tour, maybe I price with 10 people. That means transport and all this. Yes, that’s this goes from bread and crust and the total price goes down.
Jason Elkins (38:00.75)
So they can spread some of those costs out across across the group.
Ingeborg S Oluka (38:09.877)
Yeah, well then of course if you have specific wishes, if you have something you really want to do then a scheduled safari is great. And some people also in a busy, busy life really want that time just to be with the four of them and in time as a family. So it’s really about what they want.
Jason Elkins (38:10.915)
Do you?
Jason Elkins (38:29.55)
How do you, so let’s talk about what they want. So somebody reaches out to you, is not sure if they wanna do a group. Maybe they’re just not sure. I mean, do you encourage people to just fill out a form on a website, communicate by email? Do you just try and set up video calls with them, phone calls? Like somebody listening, because some people listening to this might be like, oh.
Ingeborg S Oluka (38:32.301)
you
Ingeborg S Oluka (38:38.209)
Bye.
Ingeborg S Oluka (38:50.573)
Mm.
Jason Elkins (38:54.658)
I don’t like video calls or can’t we just do this by email? I’m busy, you know, it’s hard for me to schedule stuff, but what’s your advice to somebody? Like what’s the, what do you think is important when planning a trip?
Ingeborg S Oluka (39:04.971)
Like I started the last year to do much more phone calls and video calls. And I think that’s really, it saves us a lot of time on both sides because I get a whole different, I get so much more information about what exactly they want. Cause when people write, they write, okay, maybe we want this. So they have done some research. We want ABCD. But when you talk on phone or on video call, it’s like,
It’s just much easier to gauge exactly where they are, what they want. And they also get much more information that they can.
Jason Elkins (39:38.754)
Right, right, And some of that’s just from facial expressions. if, you know, if they’re like, well.
Ingeborg S Oluka (39:42.285)
I like the 16 year old boy chipping in when I mention rafting. He’s like, yes, you want rafting. It’s like, OK.
Jason Elkins (39:50.322)
Exactly. You’re not going to get that through an email, right? So that’s why I want to bring that up. Cause I think it’s, I think it’s really, really, really helpful to just jump on a video call early on. Cause you can get so much information out of them to end when you’re suggesting ideas, you can see the look on their face and you’re not, you’re not spending a lot of time trying to put together some extension that, that they just mentioned that maybe they’d like.
But when you’re on the phone or the video call and you discuss the extension and you kind of see their forehead kind of wrinkle up and you’re like, well, maybe that’s not the right one.
Ingeborg S Oluka (40:27.469)
And I think maybe especially with a destination which is quite unknown to most people. So like you said, what do I know about Uganda? I gorillas. So I mean, if it was going to Paris, maybe an email would be enough because, I want to see ABC to tick all these boxes. so then so that conversation is really, really useful, I think, both for me and for the clients.
Jason Elkins (40:35.852)
Hmm?
Jason Elkins (40:44.19)
If it’s, if it’s Paris, you can probably book it on.
Jason Elkins (40:54.232)
So if you had to bet, because one way that we measure group satisfaction is by the feedback we get at, not group satisfaction, client satisfaction, it’s by the feedback you get after. And I always felt that the people that I could discuss it with in person.
It hasn’t always been video, but even if it’s just a phone call or a video call, as opposed to the person that was all back and forth by email, if I had to bet how the review is going to look on TripAdvisor afterwards or whatever, it’s like, I’m pretty sure that the one we had the face to face with, it’s going to be five stars. The one that was all by email, you’re always kind I was kind of worried. It’s like, well, I did what I could do, but then, you know, I mean, I remember I had a client that
Ingeborg S Oluka (41:36.171)
Yeah, you don’t know exactly.
Jason Elkins (41:42.798)
I’d booked some trips with us before and he’d always kind of done it not just by email, but through his assistant through email. So we’re doing email stuff with his assistant. And I remember he took a trip. I worked for a business. We did a lot of fly fishing stuff. That was a fairly important part of a lot of the trips we did, but he had taken trips before with us to the more traditional fishing places. And then he chose a place that.
Ingeborg S Oluka (41:50.14)
Jason Elkins (42:09.698)
Wasn’t necessarily a traditional fishing place, but he said, I wanted to go to, he wanted to go to Ireland with his girlfriend, stay 10 days. And he wanted to have a guide for each day. But this was all through his assistant. And, and I remember he went, Ireland’s, I’m not going to say anything negative about Ireland. There’s great fly fishing, but it’s not the same as Montana or Patagonia or some of these other places. And he was ended up being.
quite upset that the fishing wasn’t what he expected. So here I am kind of a fishing expert, but I’m trying to transact this for him, set this up through his assistant who knows nothing about fishing for him. And it’s all by email. And I remember thinking, I learned a big lesson is, you know, if I’d said, okay, let’s get the conversation started with the assistant, but Dan, let’s jump on a call for 10 minutes. That’s just 10 minutes.
Ingeborg S Oluka (43:05.055)
Yep.
Jason Elkins (43:07.214)
Cause I need to understand, this a fishing trip or is this a trip to Ireland? Cause it may not be the same thing. And, I could have saved so much, you know, so much difficulty for him because it, you know, it was a stressful thing for him because it wasn’t what he expected. So, but anyway, thank you for letting me share that story. But I, I hope that people listening to this, if they want to go to Uganda, my point is book a call with you.
Ingeborg S Oluka (43:14.304)
Exactly, exactly.
Ingeborg S Oluka (43:35.136)
Exactly, exactly. It’s so much easier for both sides to get exactly what you want. And you know that most people have like a week, two weeks, three at maximum. And some people, I think a big mistake, and I see it also in a lot of other companies that sell toast to Uganda. And they want to cover everything in two weeks. And I’m like, that’s not possible. mean, okay, if you have a lot of money and you can do like…
Jason Elkins (43:36.91)
Right, right.
Ingeborg S Oluka (44:04.555)
domestic flights which are crazily expensive in One flight can be 500 dollars one way. Yeah, it’s madness. Anyway, of course, yeah, then that could happen. But if you want to do Southwest and the Northeast in one trip, you really need three weeks minimum. And I see a lot of itineraries trying to squeeze so much into a short time. And I’m like…
Jason Elkins (44:10.958)
Wow, okay.
Ingeborg S Oluka (44:34.573)
people won’t like this because there will be so, I mean, okay, there are a few people who will say, know what, I want a very busy, I want a busy program. I want, I don’t care about resting as long as I have a bed at night. But most people need some time. There are a lot of impressions and traveling in a, sometimes if the roads are not good and all these things, it’s tiresome. So if you just, if you have this very squeezed itinerary,
Jason Elkins (44:57.795)
Yeah, yeah.
Ingeborg S Oluka (45:02.709)
you don’t really get to experience what I would say is the biggest, nicest part of Uganda. So you’re jumping from highlight to highlight and…
Jason Elkins (45:13.356)
And it’s when they’re asking for stuff. Yeah. And when they’re asking for stuff like that is when you definitely want to get them on a call. So like, are you sure? And you could look at the look on their face and make sure that you’re communicating. Cause this is a lot of moving around and then if, they look and say, yeah, absolutely. And okay, fine.
Ingeborg S Oluka (45:13.933)
I’m gonna be better this one.
Ingeborg S Oluka (45:21.825)
Thank you.
Ingeborg S Oluka (45:27.232)
Exactly.
Ingeborg S Oluka (45:35.214)
And also I think what many people kind of don’t really get is that, okay, the road network in Uganda is vastly improved the last 10-15 years. So the major roads are really fine, they’re good. However, this is a society and a country where there’s a lot of unpredictability. Okay, the road could be good, but there was an accident. Or now they’re doing roadworks, so it’s not that good for 20 kilometers anyway. And that means that instead of traveling
from A to B, which is a hundred kilometers in one and half hours, you will use three hours. And those kinds of things, if I plan your trip in January 26 and you travel in January 27, I kind of, mean, I can, I don’t know. No one knows where those hitchhikaps are going to be. and I think that’s, yeah, people say, Google maps says it’s three hours. Yeah, that’s Google maps. But if I know compiler traffic,
Jason Elkins (46:09.966)
Mm-hmm.
Ingeborg S Oluka (46:34.443)
And I to go from A to B around Kampala in two hours is extremely unlikely. It may happen in middle of the night or somewhere, you know, very, very early in the morning, but not in daylight.
Jason Elkins (46:47.15)
This kind of goes back to what we were discussing earlier about, you know, people may be traveling outside of, and they get out of college or high school or whatever, and they go travel. Some places are fairly predictable, it’s kind of where the conversation was going, but some of these other countries, things change, it can be a challenge. So, as somebody that is maybe using ChatGPT to plan their Uganda trip,
at or Google maps and they, well, I can go on booking.com and book an Airbnb and, these places and maybe a day tour or something. And they like, I can do all this myself. They’re totally missing this wisdom and advice. They’re not going to get it. And so maybe a first trip, whatever, you know, just another, another reason. Like I’m pretty comfortable. I’m pretty comfortable traveler, but if I was going to Uganda, think.
Ingeborg S Oluka (47:36.525)
Yeah, I was.
Jason Elkins (47:41.166)
And I had only had two or three weeks to do it. My family was with me. I don’t think I would risk it just trying to do it on my own.
Ingeborg S Oluka (47:48.522)
No, it’s… of course, like, I have some people who want to do self-drive and then they reach out to me just for advice and I’m like, if you have traveled a lot in Africa and don’t self-drive, fair enough. I mean, it’s possible to do a self-drive in Uganda, absolutely. But if you’re not that seasoned on the type of roads, the type of traffic, know, the type of country…
I would really recommend to spend an extra $50 or something per day to get a professional driver. A. Because of safety. Because if you don’t know the traffic and how traffic works, you’re quite prone to accidents. And two, also just because of experience. these professional drivers are also guides and they know… I mean, some of them…
most of them, they’re extremely good. They know every corner of the country and they know the stories behind. Sometimes it’s just small detour, 200 meters off the road and there’s a wonderful place that you would have missed. Those kind of things. So I would really for 90 % at least of travelers, I would say definitely use a driver.
Jason Elkins (49:07.31)
I’m going to ask you a question. I know you’ve been asked before. It’s probably an annoying question. Maybe it’s not, but I’m going to try and frame this with. There’s a lot of great things to do. There’s a lot of great things you set up for your clients. But for you personally, based on your interests and what you know and what you enjoy. So I’m not saying this is for everybody. What’s your favorite thing to do in Uganda? And you can.
Ingeborg S Oluka (49:35.831)
Ha
Jason Elkins (49:36.056)
Frame your response however you want, but I mean, is there something you just think is really cool that maybe most of world probably doesn’t know about and you personally just like doesn’t mean it’s for everybody, but.
Ingeborg S Oluka (49:48.82)
Yeah, well that’s a good question. There so many things and I’m not someone who has like one particular thing. But I think I would mention Mont Elgon. Ideally hiking to the top, it’s extremely nice. It’s just so beautiful and that altitude of 4,300 meters, most of us can manage it without altitude sickness. There is a risk but it’s not so high.
Jason Elkins (50:14.829)
Mm-hmm.
Ingeborg S Oluka (50:17.343)
It’s so beautiful. like last time when I was there, February actually this year, we were like, had a group of four people with me and then like four guests and then of course the guides and the porters. And we were in the mountains for four days. And apart from the first and last day when we were kind of met some community people who were in the forest picking things. We didn’t meet.
anyone. So you hike for three, four full days and you’re just alone in the mountains. know, it’s so beautiful. The nature is like, okay, I wouldn’t say untouched, but it’s really, really pristine and so nice. And also like a part of that Mont Elgon, if you don’t go hiking, you can go to Cap Travataan or Sipi Falls, which is like in the slopes of Mont Elgon and spend a few days. It’s extraordinarily beautiful.
Jason Elkins (50:54.542)
Wow.
Jason Elkins (51:17.39)
Very, very cool. Is there general guidelines around when to travel to Canada? Is this a full year round thing or what is that? What should our listeners know about that?
Ingeborg S Oluka (51:27.115)
Yeah, I get that question a lot and some people… It depends a little bit on what you want. If you want to do like game drives in the savanna parks, the dry season would be probably where you would have the best chance of seeing a lot of animals, just because the grass is short and you can actually see. Which would be January, February, December to February. But especially February is like the peak season in Uganda and that’s for good reason because it is relatively dry.
Also hiking Montelgon in February is perfect. If you go and it’s raining, mean, it will be really much harder climbing up because you keep sliding down. But when it comes to gorillas, I keep telling people that’s in the rainforest. So we have a dry season and a rainy season, but it may rain at any time. So for those more like rainforest, primates, gorillas, chimpanzees.
Jason Elkins (52:07.246)
Two steps up, one step down.
Ingeborg S Oluka (52:25.397)
I would say any time of the year. But also July, August is quite relatively dry and good months too.
Jason Elkins (52:33.56)
Do you have a lot of people? I’m trying to think how to ask this.
Is it worth even, I envision a lot of people choose Uganda because of the opportunity to see the gorillas. I’m just guessing. I mean, some of the, yeah, some of the tour operators I work with, I’ve got some clients, I’ve built some websites and some itineraries that involve Uganda. it’s, I’ve just always got the sense that that’s why people go there. And there’s other stuff to do while they’re there as well. But if you take away.
Ingeborg S Oluka (52:52.225)
Mm-hmm. that is true.
Ingeborg S Oluka (52:57.313)
next.
Ingeborg S Oluka (53:07.469)
Mm.
Jason Elkins (53:11.15)
Let’s say they close the reserve, the area where they’re at, they close it for a year. Should people still go to Uganda? Is there still plenty of other stuff to see? I’m assuming so, but I’d like to hear that from you.
Ingeborg S Oluka (53:21.491)
Absolutely. Yeah, and that has kind of been my kind of say my mission because like I said, I’m based in the northeast, gorillas are in the southwest. There is a lot more to see in terms of safari. I would say the best safaris now are in the north, Kidepo, Varchison. There’s also Pianupe, which is a wildlife reserve being close to Montelgondro that I just talked about. We’re actually
preparing to set up a safari lodge there. So it’s a wildlife reserve. It has been decided by the parliament that it will be a national park, but we don’t know exactly when that will happen in real life. And these are places, especially Kideppo and Pianope, a little bit like Montelgon, like very good wildlife, extremely beautiful and almost no other tourists. So it’s really like, it’s much more…
Jason Elkins (53:52.426)
Okay.
Ingeborg S Oluka (54:19.199)
much less crowded, much more personal than if you go to some of those more famous parks like Kenya and Tanzania. And also the chimps, of course, they’re not only in Uganda, but Uganda is one of the best places to see chimpanzees in the rainforest and other primates. And also, of course, if you are interested in birds, I think Uganda is second only to Costa Rica in terms of, you know, the density of bird species. So like…
Jason Elkins (54:43.51)
wow.
Ingeborg S Oluka (54:48.749)
the number of species per square kilometers kind of. Because it’s quite a small country and there are like more than a thousand different species. So for birders it’s really a paradise. I saw a guidebook, like a birding book, think Ethiopia has like four or five hundred and it’s like several of the parks in Uganda have five, six hundred just in one park. So for birders Uganda is really a very, very place to go.
Jason Elkins (54:57.038)
Okay, wow, I didn’t know that.
Jason Elkins (55:10.53)
Just in one part.
Jason Elkins (55:19.182)
So most of the conversation around Uganda has been to kind of what else besides the gorillas. And I know that that’s important to you to help get that word out there. But I feel like we kind of have to talk about the gorillas as well. Like if I have this conversation with you, we don’t talk about gorillas at all. People are to be disappointed because that’s why I clicked on the link. I wanted to hear about the gorillas.
Ingeborg S Oluka (55:23.053)
Thank
Ingeborg S Oluka (55:30.477)
Hmm.
Ingeborg S Oluka (55:35.413)
Yeah, of course.
Ingeborg S Oluka (55:41.527)
Mm-hmm.
Ingeborg S Oluka (55:45.57)
Hmm.
Jason Elkins (55:46.562)
So unless it look, yeah, I saw you raise your finger there. If you want to touch on something else before we move into the gorillas, but I definitely want to get into the gorillas.
Ingeborg S Oluka (55:53.512)
I want to say something about more active holidays. I mentioned hiking. was rafting and running. When I mentioned Cap Chowa, is where Joshua Cheptegay, who has the world record of 10,000 5,000 meters, Jacob Kiplimo, who has the world record at half marathon, and several others. from that small town in the slopes of Montelgun. And if you are into running, I mean…
Jason Elkins (55:58.466)
Mm-hmm.
Grafting. Yep.
Ingeborg S Oluka (56:21.805)
You can go to Eldoret in Kenya, everything is more developed there. But if you come to Kaptchorwa, it’s like, again, it’s more personal. Last time I met Cheptoge, because he came to drink juice in the guest house I was staying in. So it’s like, you can run five kilometers and you pass five homes of five international running jumpings. And again, in that very beautiful area, you have altitude, you have…
Jason Elkins (56:36.568)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (56:45.453)
Okay.
Ingeborg S Oluka (56:51.265)
trails, not a lot of tarmac, but if you’re into running a little bit off-road, there is tarmac of course, but then you just have to go up and down. if you’re into trails, there’s a vast network of running trails. And that’s something I’m kind of working on right now to develop that side of it.
Jason Elkins (57:06.508)
Interesting.
Jason Elkins (57:11.086)
I was going to ask that because it’s, it’s kind of a little niche that I really haven’t given much thought to. Is that like, do people take running vaca- I know some, some people are saying, of course Jason, I can’t believe you don’t know that, but do people take running vacations? Cause that does not sound like fun to me. I understand the biking. know biking is real popular, but-
Ingeborg S Oluka (57:29.747)
Yeah, yeah, that’s what think too. People do, people… we have a… Well, this is like, again, Eastern Uganda is quite in the beginning of developing tourism. There is a half marathon by Joshua Cheptergeist’s Development Foundation. So we started marketing that a little bit late for this year and…
I got a lot of interest, it’s just two months from now, so can we do next year? So there’s a market there. of course, running is like, there’s a running wave, at least in Europe at the moment.
Jason Elkins (58:06.456)
So it’s probably.
Jason Elkins (58:12.652)
Yeah, I know a lot of people run, but I guess that I guess what you just said about kind of marketing around like a half marathon or a specific event. Cause I can envision, it’d be cool. Well, I don’t know if I could envision it, but I can imagine some people envisioning going to Uganda and running a half marathon. Sounds really cool. okay. And all right. Yeah, that makes sense. All right. Gorilla is what, what’s the, what, let’s just start with what should our listeners
Ingeborg S Oluka (58:15.328)
Thank
Ingeborg S Oluka (58:19.499)
Yeah.
Thank
Ingeborg S Oluka (58:30.263)
Yeah, it is. Anyway, now we can go to the toilet.
Jason Elkins (58:42.496)
know about the realities of gorillas and Uganda. Like somebody that’s just seen some pictures and thought, man, I’d really like to go see gorillas, but they haven’t done any research. Where do we start?
Ingeborg S Oluka (58:54.669)
Yeah, so maybe first of all, of course, when we talk of gorillas in Uganda, it is mountain gorillas and not the lowland gorillas. And they… Well, I’m not a gorilla expert, but the lowland gorillas are a little bit smaller and they live in the lowlands. You find them in Cameroon, Congo, yeah, like the Republic of Congo. The mountain gorillas are only found in quite a small area in the border, like Uganda, Rwanda.
Jason Elkins (59:03.618)
What’s the difference?
Jason Elkins (59:10.912)
okay, all right.
Ingeborg S Oluka (59:23.949)
DR Congo. And so there are like three countries but really two forests or two kind of biotope or something. So in Uganda we have Buindi, impenetrable forest, and then you have the Virunga mountains which is shared between the three countries. So realistically at the moment it is Rwanda and Uganda where you can go and see them because Congo is not very safe.
Jason Elkins (59:34.19)
Mm-hmm.
Ingeborg S Oluka (59:53.238)
as we speak, but they are there, the gorillas are there too. So in Uganda most people, so they started in the early 90s to habituate some of the, like gorillas live in families and some of the families have been habituated, which means they have been made used to human beings. So actually we don’t know exactly how many gorillas exist. There might be some gorillas that…
no one has seen yet. But I think now forget the numbers, I just know that half of them are in Uganda. But we talk about a maybe a couple of thousands, that they’re really less. No, I think it’s less. So they’re really few, they’re highly endangered. The biggest threat, of course, is habitat loss, like the forests are being reduced and reduced, but also like human, kind of say human animal transfer of diseases. Like some years ago, there was a
I forget the disease, some outbreak of an infectious disease in a village and that affected gorillas. They don’t have that immune system because they’ve been quite isolated in the forest. In Uganda and Rwanda you have some families that have been habituated and when you go on gorilla tracking those are the families you go to see. They are very well guarded and kept.
Jason Elkins (01:01:19.082)
Is that is that.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:01:21.247)
like someone is keeping an eye on them.
Jason Elkins (01:01:24.302)
Is that why you go to them because they’re habituated and basically the guides know where they’re going to be. And so it’s easier as opposed to trying to go out and find a group of gorillas that don’t want to have anything to do with humans that sounds dangerous and not, and harder and all right. Okay. Okay.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:01:37.022)
Exactly, and you don’t know where they are. You could be wandering the forest for ages without seeing them. so it’s these families that habituated and as I said, they are really well guarded. And I think this is gorilla tourism in Uganda and probably Rwanda. I don’t know so much about Rwanda, but it’s really a very nice example of how tourism can support conservation and how those two go hand in hand because
They bring in lot of income. The gorilla permits are quite expensive. And then of course there’s everything around, accommodation and guides and porters and all this. And so that money enables the government both to have enough guards and rangers in the forest to actually protect these animals and also to work with the communities to avoid these human-animal conflicts that often appear.
with the previous laws to national park.
Jason Elkins (01:02:35.96)
What is it? What is it?
Yeah. What is it typical? Like, let’s go back to before the government saw value and having the gorillas there for tourism. What was the typical conflict look like? I I know in a lot of places in Africa, it could be, for example, the elephants will come in and eat the garden or eat the fruit trees or, or destroy things. But with gorillas historically, what’s the conflict that would cause the people to want to.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:02:46.199)
Yeah.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:02:57.975)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:03:08.898)
hurt the gorillas.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:03:11.211)
Yeah, it’s along the same lines. It’s like eating the gardens, eating the vegetables and things like that. And sometimes there are quite simple things that can be done. For example, they don’t like tea and coffee. So if you plant that on the border of the forest, that reduces it a lot.
Jason Elkins (01:03:13.344)
Same lines.
Okay.
Jason Elkins (01:03:26.381)
Okay.
Jason Elkins (01:03:30.254)
And is there any economic value to the gorillas other than tourism? So for example, rhinos, big problems with rhinos and elephants because they produce something that there’s demand for. But for a gorilla, historically, has there ever been a reason to poach a gorilla?
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:03:38.54)
Yeah.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:03:50.734)
No, I’m not an expert, but I have never heard about that. don’t think so. But this is where you should ask my partner who is a much more grill expert. But no, I don’t think so. And you know, they do look a lot like humans. think tradition has been that kind of, can I say, respect and a of awe maybe? Because I know that they look like us and they always behave in a very…
Jason Elkins (01:03:53.75)
I haven’t either, was just, but there’s a lot of things I haven’t heard about. So I just thought I’d ask in case it was a thing. All right.
Jason Elkins (01:04:12.438)
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:04:21.087)
In many ways, they social animals. When you see them, they are cleaning each other’s fur and feeding their young ones and playing with the babies. As far as I’ve understood, there’s been, at least for many of the people living around the forest, that kind of respect, maybe?
Jason Elkins (01:04:44.296)
Yeah, there’s kind of a synergy between the two. You mentioned transmission of disease.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:04:50.519)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:04:54.318)
is obviously one downside, you know, if you’ve got a bunch of tourists and you’re taking them into the jungle and they’re getting too close to the gorillas, I can see that that would be an issue. I also know like places where there’s coral reefs, scuba divers and snorkelers sometimes stand on the reef. break the reef off. There’s pro you know, the things like sunblock or bug spray or stuff that can get in the water. And you know, there’s, so
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:05:15.661)
.
Jason Elkins (01:05:24.492)
the guides when they’re out with the clients, like what is the thing that clients tend to think they should be able to do with the gorillas? But in reality, it’s like, no, you’re not going to go sit on their lap and take a picture. A good example would be tourists in Yellowstone Park in the United States. You know, they think they want a picture of their kids sitting on the buffalo or the moose or something like that. So, so I know that people have unrealistic expectations of what their
wildlife encounters going to be like. So how do you set the stage for somebody so they’re not disappointed when they get.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:05:58.616)
Yeah, thank you. That’s a good question. I want to just mention that Uganda Wildlife Authorities, they are really serious about how they manage this. So every morning when you go tracking, you start with a kind of a briefing and they’re very clear rules. You are not going closer than seven meters to the gorillas. You have to follow whatever your guide tells you at any time. If you are sick, you are not allowed to go.
Like if you’re coughing or sneezing or like having this kind of… If you need to use the toilet, you know, you have to dig a hole and cover it. So there are quite strict rules and also… But the seven meter rule, of course, it’s that applies to the humans. so it’s just so you will see photos and videos of gorillas coming close. But then that is gorilla coming to you.
And of course you can’t stop that. And that happens. as far as I know, it has always gone well. They’re quite peaceful animals, as long as you don’t provoke them. And quite playful. So you will see sometimes pictures of people being pushed a bit. Or there was one I saw this guy sitting, very quiet. And this big gorilla was basically on his back and touching his hair.
Jason Elkins (01:06:59.95)
Mm-hmm.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:07:27.373)
So I haven’t experienced that myself though. yeah, you go with a small group, maximum eight tourists in one group and at least two guides, like professional guides and reporters. And they all know what to do. And I mean, you have to follow their lead. you don’t, they will return back to you.
Jason Elkins (01:07:47.758)
Let’s go. You’re leaving. You’re out of here. Are they always, you you stay at a lodge, presumably a lodge, maybe a camp, and then these are day trips to go out to look at the gorillas or are people camping out there or is it just the day trip?
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:08:04.813)
No, it is a day trip. So what they usually do, for example in Buindi, when, okay, Buindi has like four sectors. The biggest one is called Buoma. So when you come to the information center at Buoma and you get the briefing, so they already know, okay, this family is far away. This family is really close. So they look at the clients and they talk to the driver guides who have brought them and say, okay, and then they kind of divide you up so that’s.
if you are very fit, you go to the one which is far away and the ones who look a little bit not able to walk so far, are assigned to the family which is closer.
Jason Elkins (01:08:41.23)
So what I, what I hear you saying is if you look fit, but you don’t really want to take the long walk, maybe develop a little bit of limp when you meet your guide.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:08:51.755)
You can also voice your wishes. But the thing is that many people… I see it a lot also in these Facebook groups of people who want to go. It’s like, you know, when you ask someone is the hike difficult? I mean, the answer to that depends on what is your definition of a difficult hike. I live in the West of Norway now. We have a lot of hills. So I would say no, it’s not very hard.
Jason Elkins (01:08:55.15)
Hahaha!
Jason Elkins (01:09:12.248)
Yeah, that’s a…
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:09:20.525)
But if you have grown up in a city and all your life you’ve just been walking on surface roads, it’s really hard. Maybe even the short one would be quite challenging. So that depends a lot. But of course normally when… They have quite the depth at seeing who needs to go where. But of course, and sometimes you have the opposite problem. I had a group once that, okay, they were a family and they had a younger childhood.
Jason Elkins (01:09:31.234)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:09:49.326)
was not going because it’s a 50, you have to be 50 and then about to go. So anyway, so they were going two different days. And then the first group went and they had this long hike and I loved it. was like, being in the rainforest and just the hike for hours and it was so nice. But like, back to your question, yes, it’s a day trip. always come back the same day. Then the next day, it’s like…
Jason Elkins (01:09:52.878)
Oh, that’s a good point. Yeah, okay.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:10:16.001)
They walked for less than 15 minutes and they were the gorillas and they were like, we wanted to walk in the rainforest too, you know? It’s not just about the gorillas, but all in all, yeah, it is.
Jason Elkins (01:10:22.446)
Jason Elkins (01:10:30.232)
So I’m assuming that if somebody thinks, know what, I’m a real do it yourself type of person. I’m just going to go rent a room at one of these lodges or close by or whatever. And then I’ll just go look for gorillas. They’re going to be sadly disappointed. I’m assuming. Yeah.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:10:51.477)
Yeah, they will. So, like I said, there are like only eight permits per family, per gorilla family, per day. And it’s strictly once per day. Like you don’t have two groups to one family in one day. And it’s only registered tour companies in Uganda that can actually purchase the permits from wildlife authorities.
Jason Elkins (01:10:59.715)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:11:16.054)
And it, and one of those companies can’t turn around and sell a permit to somebody that’s going to go do it themselves. You gotta be with a guide. I’m just, I’m just restating things that are probably really obvious, but yeah.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:11:22.817)
Yeah, you got, yes. There’s no way you can go to the forest and eat outside. That’s impossible. And like said again, know, the animals are well guarded. also, like last time I was in Bohoma, I was like in the village outside and I was going to walk from my lodge to… I don’t remember where I was going. I was just taking a walk in the village. And within five minutes…
Jason Elkins (01:11:33.326)
Yeah.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:11:50.062)
two guards came and said, you can’t walk alone, we’re working with you. So there’s no way you can just sneak into the forest as a foreigner to, no, I would say as good as impossible.
Jason Elkins (01:12:04.194)
And I wanted to mention that because I think it’s important because I can not listeners to this show. I’m sure, but I can imagine some people just, there’s gorillas there. I I’m doing the self drive thing. I’m going to go stay in the village. And I’m sure that I’ll figure out some way to see gorillas. And then they get there and somebody says, well, no, you have to have a permit. got to buy the permit through the tour operator. it’s, and there’s no permits because you’re here for two days and you want to go tomorrow. And those things sell.
I assume they sell well in advance. So yeah, I suspect everyone saw there’s somebody.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:12:35.564)
Yeah, they do.
So usually what, but if you’re doing a self drive and you’re just booking on accommodation, many of the lodges in the area do have the license and they can help you secure a permit, but you have to book it in advance. Yeah. You don’t have to buy a package tour. mean, from, you can, it is possible to do it through the lodge or not all lodges, but at least many of them do that.
Jason Elkins (01:12:52.65)
Okay. All right. And it’s proud and it’s okay. No, that’s
Jason Elkins (01:13:04.13)
But again, the permits are probably not super cheap, I’m guessing.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:13:08.045)
No, at the moment they 800 dollars in Uganda and 1500 in Rwanda.
Jason Elkins (01:13:12.27)
Okay, all right.
Jason Elkins (01:13:16.43)
Okay, so that’s important. Cause I just imagine people showing up just thinking they’re just gonna be able to see gorillas and then someone tells them, well, we can set it up for you tomorrow, but it’s $800 a piece. And then them going on social media or TripAdvisor and saying, don’t go to Uganda, they’re gonna scam you because they want $800. And I’m pretty sure it’s not that much. I can just.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:13:21.805)
Yeah.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:13:30.262)
Mm-hmm.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:13:41.198)
I haven’t heard of that problem actually. think most people do quite some research and also like these rates, I mean they are publicly available. so it’s kind of, I this is the rate card from Uganda Wildlife Authority and this is the price. And of course most, of course there’s a markup because it’s…
Jason Elkins (01:13:45.11)
No, okay. It’s just.
Jason Elkins (01:13:52.014)
It’s just a, this is the rate and yeah. Okay. All right. Good. Good deal.
Jason Elkins (01:14:05.144)
Yeah.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:14:05.613)
It’s a bit of a hassle also for the tour operators to actually get the permits. So we pay $800 to the ANAVALIA Authority, but we have more expenses in getting that fixed than just ANAVALIA.
Jason Elkins (01:14:10.752)
Yeah, no, I’m.
Jason Elkins (01:14:19.726)
Yeah, you’re not likely going to sell $800 permits for $800 just to make your hostile guests happy that are paying $20 a night.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:14:25.229)
Thanks, Ike.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:14:29.387)
No, no, you’re not. And not just the market, but these are real costs, you know, actually, like someone has to go to the office in Kampala and make the payment. And then there’s the taxes and there’s VAT and so, so yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:14:35.266)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:14:44.172)
Yeah. All right. It’s not quite the same as, I was trying to think of a good example, but maybe if you go to, if you’re in Bali or somewhere in Southeast Asian, someone says, you know, I’ll take you out and show you some monkeys for a hundred dollars. A little different. All right. Very, cool. we’ve discussed a bunch of different things. know we could just keep going. We should probably come back and do it again at some point.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:15:03.265)
Yeah.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:15:13.997)
That’ll be fun.
Jason Elkins (01:15:14.382)
But before we wrap up, want to ask you, what did I forget to ask you? What do you think it’s important that I should have asked you? Or just generally, what do you want our listeners to know about you, your business, Uganda, life in general before we wrap up?
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:15:20.695)
Thank
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:15:27.949)
well that’s a big question. we’ve talked about a lot of things. I think I would still just kind of… We haven’t really talked of Karamoja, which is the part of the country where our farm is and I would say it’s the most interesting part of the country. Culturally, it’s the only cultural group or ethnic group in Uganda that is kind of…
Jason Elkins (01:15:41.677)
Yes.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:15:56.846)
stick to their traditions throughout colonial time and post-colonial times much more than the others. So people are like pastoralists with lot of cows and goats and the whole culture around that, you know, it’s really interesting. And also the nature, the landscapes, the mountains, everything. It’s really a real, it’s a very hidden gem, but it’s really a gem.
And I think if you get in touch with Theo that Lea gave you its contacts, he will talk more about that. it’s that’s really and I think that is that’s really what even if you want to see Gorillaz. But maybe next time or have enough time to also go to Karamoja because it’s like it’s like out of this world. It’s really unique.
Jason Elkins (01:16:32.782)
So, okay.
Jason Elkins (01:16:47.918)
So Karamoja is the region, the village, help me out the region.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:16:50.657)
Yeah, no, karma is the region, like the far northeast, Bodhrin can’t.
Jason Elkins (01:16:55.094)
Okay. And the name of the farm is the same as your business, Alicata? Or what’s the name of the farm?
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:17:00.989)
yeah, the guest house is a Alakara Guest House
Jason Elkins (01:17:04.132)
yeah, that’s what I, what I had remembered. I just wanted to make sure, because we’re going to have a link right to your website so they can go learn about the farms, the tours, the packages, the groups, all that stuff right there on your website. Right. All right. Cool. Well, we will have that in the notes and thank you so much. It was fast, fascinating conversation for me. And I learned to learn a ton of things and look forward to collaborating with you on some projects in the future. And yeah, thank you so much. Yeah.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:17:15.149)
Great, great.
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:17:20.525)
Thank you,
Ingeborg S Oluka (01:17:31.095)
Thank you. And thank you for having me. That’s really nice. Okay. Bye bye.
Jason Elkins (01:17:34.85)
We’ll chat with you soon. Thanks. Bye bye.
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