Guest Bio
Jan Wigsten is a Swedish adventurer and entrepreneur renowned for his pioneering contributions to sustainable tourism in Mongolia. His journey began in 1980 when he led a groundbreaking tour group to Mongolia. In 1993, he co-founded Nomadic Journeys, aiming to introduce eco-friendly tourism to the region. Later, in 2017, he established 360° Mongolia, offering luxury yurt camping experiences that provide guests with immersive views of Mongolia’s pristine landscapes. Jan’s innovative approach has significantly elevated the art of glamorous camping, or ‘glamping,’ in Mongolia.
Show Summary
In this episode, Jan Wigsten shares his extensive experience in adventure tourism, focusing on his efforts to promote sustainable travel in Mongolia. He discusses the inception of Nomadic Journeys and 360° Mongolia, highlighting the challenges and successes encountered while integrating luxury with eco-friendly practices. Jan also reflects on the evolution of Mongolia’s tourism industry and the importance of preserving its unique cultural and natural heritage.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Innovative Tourism: Combining luxury with sustainability can create unique travel experiences.
- ✓ Cultural Preservation: Responsible tourism plays a vital role in maintaining local traditions and environments.
- ✓ Entrepreneurial Vision: Pioneering new tourism models requires adaptability and foresight.
- ✓ Community Engagement: Collaborating with local communities enhances the authenticity of travel experiences.
- ✓ Environmental Stewardship: Implementing eco-friendly practices ensures the preservation of natural landscapes for future generations.
What You’ll Find on 360° Mongolia’s Platform
- ✓ Luxury Yurt Camping: Exclusive accommodations offering panoramic views of Mongolia’s untouched terrains.
- ✓ Customized Expeditions: Tailored journeys that cater to individual interests and preferences.
- ✓ Cultural Immersion: Opportunities to engage deeply with Mongolian nomadic traditions and lifestyles.
- ✓ Adventure Activities: Experiences ranging from horseback riding to exploring the Gobi Desert.
- ✓ Sustainable Practices: Eco-conscious initiatives that minimize environmental impact while maximizing guest comfort.
👉 Visit 360° Mongolia’s Official Website to explore their offerings and learn more about Jan Wigsten’s contributions to sustainable tourism in Mongolia.
Learn more about 360° Mongolia and connect with Jan at:
https://www.360degreesmongolia.com/
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Jason Elkins (01:04.098)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. Today we’ve got Jan Wigsten from 360 degrees Mongolia. I have known Jan for a little while, worked with him when I was at Orvis putting together some fly fishing trips to Mongolia and super excited to have you on the show Jan. How are you? I’m very well, thank you. Very cool. I’m in Sweden. I appreciate you. You’re in Sweden. I was going to ask you that. So what’s…
Let’s see, we’re recording in late November. What is late November in Sweden like? It’s getting dark right now. We are in the late afternoon. It’s about three o’clock afternoon and we had a snowstorm today and very icy roads. Oh, sounds wonderful. Yes. I’m in Columbia. It’s about 75 degrees every day, I think. Yeah. So I personally do not miss the cold. Do you?
I’ve got a lot of questions I want to ask you. So let’s jump right in with the first one. And we were discussing this briefly before I hit the record button was your company name. And I thought, let’s just jump right in with that. 360 degrees Mongolia. What’s behind that? And what were you just telling me a few moments ago about 360? That’s our promise to our customers that we deliver a 360 degrees landscape view around your foldable camp. So we work with mobile.
safaris if you like or pop-up camps and we can move these camps together with the customers while they are walking or riding we can fold the whole room together and load it on the back of camels and then walk for seven kilometers and 12 and change the view again that’s the 360 degrees promise that’s pretty cool and i heard you say walk and i heard you say camels so just real quick i wasn’t going to start with this but i’m fascinated by it
What does that look like for the customer? Are they walking seven kilometers, riding camels? What does the whole experience look like? I know you’ve got a few different experiences you offer. Camel riding is a little bit boring. So people usually walk, you know, they like to sit on a camel for an hour and then they get tired of it. While if you’re a horse rider, you can go for 40 kilometers and meet up with the camp while it moved another seven, 10 or 12 Ks.
Jason Elkins (03:26.71)
It’s quite variable. I mean, we do not follow trails in Mongolia. This huge landscape. So you just walk across it or ride across it. And it’s a five-star camping experience or glamping experience, if you like, where we provide a private chef and a guide because people do not speak much English over there. There’s a lot of nomads, so you wanna talk with them. Yeah, so we’re exposed to the elements.
In the summer it might rain, you know, and in the shoulder season it might be cold because we are in the center of Asia. So it’s very far from the oceans, ocean moderating effects on the climate. So it’s an extreme continental climate. So what is it that the typical, your typical client that makes a decision to go to Mongolia, what are they, generally what do you feel they’re looking for? And then I guess the second part of the question is,
What do they typically find? Yeah, so typically they are looking for, it’s a people-centered place and big landscapes. So I don’t think it is site specific. Some people, they’re looking for monasteries and sand dunes and eagle hunters, but mostly they just wanna go there. And this is basically what they will find. We have a huge space to move on.
And in my case, we restructured our business around 2016. So it’s quite expensive to do these type of adventures. I found that- Just statistically, I can imagine it’s gotta be fairly complicated. What are the biggest challenges? The biggest challenge is the human resource. Because you can imagine Mongolia is the least populated country on earth.
It’s located in the Arctic because it’s 1,400 meters above sea level. And among the few people that live there, very few speak English. And 30% of them are nomads. I mean, really nomads. It’s the biggest nomadic society left on earth. So the experience is really to, you know, immerse with that culture. And if you, you know, move things with the nomads, rent their…
Jason Elkins (05:53.014)
yurts or gears as we call the tents. They have wooden structures and we rent their animals and then we travel with them in their space. Oh, okay. So you mentioned a couple things that I want to make sure I can get my head around so the listeners can as well. I heard you say, first you mentioned least populated. Is it?
Jason Elkins (06:20.914)
Yeah. You know, most sparsely populated is that? Correct. OK, because I’m sure there’s small, there’s small countries that have fewer people, but in Mongolia, they’re really, really sparsely populated. It’s the 18th largest country in the world. Oh, wow. OK. 18th largest. So we have a lot of space and few people and half the population live in the capital. Oh, wow. OK. So what is roughly the population of the country?
3.5 million. Oh yeah, that’s not very many. You know, and Namibia is the second least populated country on earth, Namibia, which is a lot of deserts. It’s in Africa, but they have certain advantages over us. They, the people generally speak English and they have a longer season. They have a better climate than we do. They do not have more water, but they have climate. So we operate in an Arctic environment.
So mostly we’re open in the summers. Now that was the second thing you mentioned that I wanted to make sure I kind of got my head around Arctic environment by the fact of just that it’s so high elevation. It’s not actually in the Arctic, but it’s the climate is kind of Arctic because it’s such a high elevation. Is that right? It depends on the definition you take. I mean, we have permafrost in the same way that you would have above the polar circle. Okay.
but we are very far south. So it’s not considered geographically as an Arctic country, but it’s high. The climate and the, and one of the factors. Yeah, the climate, permafrost. Okay. And for example, north of us is Russia, right? Siberia and Lake Baikal is north of us. It’s the deepest lake in the world. Right. So it’s just on our north. That is, that lake is 1000 meters below us. So it means,
When you travel, as you travel south from Siberia, you travel up. So it becomes colder even though you travel south. So we are colder than Siberia. Got it. Yeah. Oh, that’s a fascinating place that I suspect a lot of our listeners really know. I know more about Mongolia right now than I did 10 minutes ago. So thank you.
Jason Elkins (08:44.286)
And I, and I realized we just literally just kind of touched on the surface there a little bit. And I want to come back to that in a few minutes, but I’m also really want to like figure out, okay, how does this guy from Sweden end up running an operation with nomads and yurts and camels and Mongolia? So I’m really fascinated by your story. I know little bits of it, but I’d love for you to share with our listeners kind of.
Why did you get into this? Go back as far as you want to go back wherever you think it was relevant and kind of walk us through how that all happened. Well, I came to Mongolia in 1980, the first time. So that is 43 years ago. So at that time I was young, I was 25. So I was among the youngest of the tour leaders in the travel company I was working for. So I couldn’t pick my destinations. So I was sent to Cuba.
USSR and Mongolia to begin with. Were those at the time where those considered like kind of, I don’t know, like we used to joke about how you’re going to get sent off to Siberia if you do something wrong or if you mess up or if you’re the new guy. Yeah. You know, it was really easy in communist times because, uh, the, um, before you got into tourism, but. No. Uh-huh.
I got into tourism already in 1978 and I was sent out to Havana to do trips in Cuba. And I got into the travel business because I speak Spanish fluently. I’ve been to Colombia, for example, a lot and all around Latin America. So because I knew Spanish, they hired me for running trips in South America as well. But they really tried me out in the Soviet Union.
And those days it was state-owned tourist companies. The government owned the companies. So they would give you a guide who speak perfectly Swedish and they will monitor you. Nothing could go wrong on these kinds of trips. And they were pretty good local guides, you know, in Moscow and Leningrad and Ulaanbaatar and Havana and so on. You always had somebody with you. So they would send the new tour leaders on these kinds of trips.
Jason Elkins (11:04.254)
And after that, nothing could go wrong. So I’ll watch you make sure nothing went wrong. Yeah. Hey, I get it. They would always send me home. And okay. What was going on before that? Cause I really want to like, what were you doing before tourism? Was there a before tourism in your life or like, well, I, where I’m now in the, in the Island of Gotland in the middle of the Baltic sea, so I’m sorry.
Jason Elkins (11:38.862)
I’m in the middle of the Baltic Sea now, right? And I’m a native of Gotland. So outside our island, we have some, the only bird cliffs in the whole of Baltic.
Jason Elkins (11:52.706)
So I became the, so I applied as a local person and I got the job because I was just local. So I- And that was guiding just tourists to see the bird’s-lifts? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. A two and a half hour walk around the island as a naturalist guide. Okay. Most of the- I don’t know if this is relevant and I don’t know why I’m gonna ask you this, but I’ve seen documentaries
They’re sitting on the tops of these cliffs and I don’t know if they’re puffins or what they were flying over the cliff. They stick up their nets and catch the birds. Is that? Yeah, correct. You know, there are big cliffs with thousands of Gilmots. Okay. They’re like puffins and they jump off the cliffs when the chicks get out. Oh, oh, okay. Yeah. All right. I’ve seen that. That’s the fascinating. So you were living there. You applied to be a local guide.
Was that something like when you’re growing up that you wanted to do, or was that just kind of the local thing and that was the opportunity? No, it’s just one of these nature conservation programs to employ the local people. So I was one of the locals. I mean, the mainlanders would have degrees in biology, but a Gotlander like me would get a job just because I was local. Okay, and you- And then I was trained. And was it a job like you were just like, okay, I need a job?
this is the job that’s there or was like, oh my gosh, I would love to work with tourists and show them my island. I would love to work with tourists. It was a lifestyle decision. Okay. And it went on that way. And were your parents supportive? Yeah. Okay. It’s not far from home, you know? Yeah. Okay. Very cool. So you did that. And then how did you get from that?
through where you were working with this company that shipped you off to Cuba and USSR and all that stuff? At that time, the Swedish Kronor was very, very strong. It was like 450 against the $1. And now it’s like 11 Kronors to $1. So it’s weak. And at that time, our people, they traveled a lot abroad. So I got a job as a… So I traveled myself first, two years to South America and the Caribbean.
and half a year in Asia. And after that I went like, well, they might call it gap year or kind of a just, Europeans I think do it a lot. They take a year or two and they go backpacking somewhere. Was that kind of what that looked like? Yeah, sure. And then I just wanted to understand what I have been experiencing. So I took a course for one semester at the university in development studies to understand what I.
Jason Elkins (16:18.354)
more about the world because I was too young to really figure everything out. It was during analog times. There was no Google, there is no internet. You had to send letters, I mean snail mail, and you had to collect your letters as a general delivery in the post office around the world. So those were the days. So having done all that, I was fluent in Spanish and that is quite rare for Scandinavians in those days.
and the tour company that hired me, they really needed somebody who speaks Spanish. So on these qualifications, I started to work to Cuba.
with Swedish tourists back and forward. Especially for our American listeners, Cuba, USSR, even Mongolia, all of those areas are really kind of mystical, especially if they’re my age. You know, anybody that’s my age, I’m 50. I grew up in a time where I could only imagine going to the USSR. I have been fortunate enough to travel to Cuba once.
And it was fascinating. So I’m curious, like share some stories or something about Cuba, USSR. Um, you mentioned that you kind of always had somebody there. I guess they called it a handler or whatever. That was kind of always there to make sure that people were seeing the things that they, that they wanted them to see. But I’m sure you have some fascinating stories or moments that I don’t know. What comes to mind? Not that much really, you know, Mongolia was not very interesting in those days. Everything was predictable.
You got mostly chicken and fried potatoes. You know, it was very predictable and boring in some ways because we couldn’t really scratch the surface because of my shortcoming in Russian was complete. But in Cuba, of course, I was more fluid. And after a while I learned- Did you feel that Cuba was just more interesting? I mean, I love Latin America. I really enjoyed Cuba.
Jason Elkins (18:29.642)
of socially-induced interactions I had. At the time, did you, I mean, if you were given the choice between spending six months leading trips in Cuba or six months leading trips in Mongolia or USSR, would you lean one way or? Very, very different. Yeah, yeah, very different. I mean, Cubans are so talkative, you know, and if you speak Spanish, it’s completely different than going to Mongolia where no one speaks English or to USSR where they don’t speak, you know, much languages either in those days.
So we were herded around those countries, but in Cuba, I could understand more because I could talk to drivers and taxi drivers and so forth and waitresses and waiters and so forth. And what about other, because it sounds like you also led trips to other parts of Latin America where you didn’t have maybe that structure of, okay, we’re here to tell the story that our host country wants to be told. So
Give us a contrast kind of between maybe Cuba and if you’re leading groups in other places in South America, because there were a lot of stuff going on in a lot of places in Latin America in the 80s, 90s, that type. What really made the deal is that the tour company I was working for was owned by Scandinavian Airlines and they had complaints on South America tours all the time. But they had only one trip going each year. And that year,
as I mentioned, the Swedish corona was very strong. So all the six trips went and I was the one leading them. So I went around South America, you know, Rio de Janeiro, Buenos Aires, Iguazú Falls, Bolivia, Peru, New York, and then home. I did that six times. On the first trip, there was a serious military coup in Bolivia, really violent one. Luis Garcia Mesa, I think it was.
in 1979 and the whole country just closed. And I came back with the group without complaints. We just had a few more days in Buenos Aires and everyone at home, they thought it was my merit, right? That I spoke Spanish. That’s why everyone was happy despite, you know, we lost one country one way.
Jason Elkins (20:54.49)
weren’t able to go to Bolivia or you were in the country? We had to cancel Bolivia for three days landing La Paz. You were able to cancel before you got there then okay. Yeah we had a good at ground agent that’s the reality of the story. So but everybody at home thought I was you know that was fantastic and next trip there was a it was a strike on a Brazilian airline and we couldn’t get into Iguazu Falls.
the widest waterfalls in the world. And we lost that too on the second trip and everybody was happy. And you know, I don’t know, I don’t think it was my, you know, professionalism or anything. It’s just that we had a good agent. We had a better program than the previous years. And when I came home with important, yeah, so we came out of super important. You mentioned, you know, you had a good ground agent.
that was able to do all that for you. And this is like, anybody that’s listening to this that works in the tourism industry, adventure tourism industry relates to that. They probably, all of them have a story of a ground agent making them look like a hero to their clients. And I was in Santiago de Chile when they had a big earthquakes quite a few years ago. And I was there in a hotel in downtown Santiago. And…
Big earthquake, the airport collapsed. It was, it was quite a deal. And I had clients staying in the hotel and we were able to, to do some amazing things and continue on this trip when, you know, the airport was shut down. Our, our ground partners found a little airstrip at an airplane and they got us down to Port-au-Mont and got us onto a boat and we went fishing and exploring and doing all this cool stuff right in the middle of all this. And there were some issues there just feeling a little bit shameful, to be honest with you.
because there were all these things going on and our clients just thought, wow, that was amazing. You guys are amazing and it was thanks to the ground partners. So it’s really important that when you book a trip, book a trip with someone with a reputation that has good partners on the ground, right? That’s super important. And especially now post-COVID, people want more security. And we were lucky, you know, we were in Buenos Aires that extra day, the void, so to speak, in the trip.
Jason Elkins (23:13.746)
It was on the November the 10th. And I was so lucky. It was Dia de la Tradición for the gauchos. So just a full day trip out of, um, Buenos Aires to San Antonio de Areco. There was celebrations and gauchos and, you know, Argentinian cowboys, uh, so to speak for the whole day, you know, and it worked really well that was not programmed, but it was really good, you know, and with the ground agent, they made it happen.
Of course, I didn’t know that because I was on the plane in, right? They knew that already and prepared that for us. Yeah. Fantastic. That’s super cool. And that’s one of the fun things of for me anyway, leading groups or being in these group trips is just the opportunity. It’s usually the surprising things that you didn’t necessarily expect or have planned that leave the mark and usually in a good way. Even I was having a conversation with someone yesterday about, you know, weather, how sometimes really bad weather
time can feel like, oh man, this is, this sucks. Um, but then at the end of the trip, you look back on it and your favorite day is that day when you were all hunkered down in the snowstorm or, you know, doing, or doing whatever, it creates a bonding kind of shared experience type of thing. So, yeah. So I liked the little surprises sometimes. So, um, so in addition to 360 degrees Mongolia and your
history leading trips that we were just discussing South America, former Soviet Union, Cuba, Mongolia. I just happen to know that you were involved in a lot of different things kind of on the financial, governmental, organizational, you know, economical change, stuff like that. So I’d love to hear a little bit about some of the other projects you’re doing. I think the last time we spoke, you said you were working with someone on a possible project to go tag snow leopards.
know, in the Himalayas. So you’ve got all these things going on. I know you do something for you to share with our listeners, some of that other stuff you’re doing as well. Yeah, well, this is the upside of operating in Mongolia because it’s such a short summer season. The winter is consequently long. So I have over the years, I was part of the ecotourism movement in the 1990s globally. And through that, I got a network. And so I’m
Jason Elkins (25:38.866)
sometimes hired by the World Wildlife Fund, Conservation International, the World Bank, the United Nations Development Program and so forth on tourism development. And that is a consulting role, that’s not a tour operating role. And that is to assist, to see how you can connect tourism to rural people who live in areas of great biodiversity, for example.
So I’ve done that a lot in the Guianas, in Peru, even around Russia in recent years in the high Arctic, along the Bering Straits next to Alaska in Russia, yeah, and in India and so forth. And through that, I have learned a lot of different things and also East Africa for many years, coaching safari companies how to strategize and sell more to EU markets.
So I’ve been coaching 50 plus companies in Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Rwanda, Tanzibar, and Suriname and two tiger lodges in India. Wow. So, so this is a totally different part of the coin. So I learned to see things from a different angle, from the angle of the local people who wish to participate in tourism or not.
Jason Elkins (27:08.058)
How to link it more about that. I’m curious to learn about that. I think a lot of people listening and myself included would like to have a first, a better understanding of kind of the other side of the coin, the. The locals, cause we go somewhere and we meet a guide and we probably ask a lot of questions about them, their, their life and all that, but very few of us have the opportunity to really kind of see it from their perspective as
Yeah. They’re getting paid to smile. They’re getting paid to be there and accommodate. This is a conversation that touches me a lot. So for example, in Mongolia, you would think that we, as a one company, we would have one strategy working with locals, but it doesn’t work like that. Because if you are a nomad in the Gobi pasture, it’s a desert, right? They have to move more. They don’t have time to work for us so much as nomads in the North.
So the livelihood strategies of local people are quite variable, even within the same communities. And I think that it’s hard to say that a lot of the community-based tourism projects around the world, you know, it’s a concept that we love. They actually are quite weak on success. So there are a lot of failures in them. And it’s because you deal with communities as one kind of cooperative.
but they do not naturally cooperate well within each other. And it only happens in very traditional societies. So it’s much better to go into community and teach them things and then individually coach each one because they have many choices how to connect. You know, they do not only, it’s not the only choice to connect with Jan’s company.
like my company or yours, they can have other choices. Like if they have a village somewhere, the one way of marketing is put up a sign on the road and you’ll find people passing on the road or you make a Facebook page or you call it a tour operator in your capital and someone will run a restaurant, another one will run a hotel. A lot of the failures of community-based tourism is that they do the same things and offer the same.
Jason Elkins (29:36.11)
kind of service to tourists. And when that happens, and they often copy each other because they don’t understand distant markets very well. So then they offer the same service because if one is very successful, the others will copy it. And that’s not very good. So they need coaching, you see, they need to understand how it works with value chains and how tourists come to them. And there is so many variables in that.
space. And that’s, that’s called market systems development. You build systems from bottom up. Okay. Got it. There, boy, there’s so much stuff. This is a really interesting conversation. I’m not even sure what questions to ask. And the first one that comes to mind is it sounds like you were saying, or like maybe one community is like, okay, we’re going to offer tours X,
whatever, we’ve got these three things that we’re going to offer. And another community next door, you know, maybe 50 kilometers away sees that and says, oh, well it’s working there. So we’re going to just do the same thing and then the same thing and the same thing, then you eliminate the what’s maybe what’s actually interesting about a particular community, because you’re just trying to copy what the neighbors do. And instead of figuring out what’s unique about our situation here, is that part of it? Okay. Yes.
individual choices, you know, they’re not different than you and I. You know, they have different backgrounds, they have different relatives, they have different kind of kids, maybe some of the teenagers speak some English and so forth. So they’re all different and that lends itself for different strategy choices for their marketing and often they have to mix tourism with their traditional livelihood as well.
You know, so they are multi task, tasking entrepreneurs, right? Got it. Got it. So, and to, yeah, too often in tourism, they, they try to teach communities how to make tourism alone, but it is not that, you know, easy. It’s, it’s much more complex. So you have to guide people forward where locals to take informed decisions of how
Jason Elkins (32:04.782)
connect to tourism and their other livelihoods. And that is in Mongolia very different in the desert area compared to where we have the fishing, for example, where the pastures are very rich because they live from livestock and livestock they are grazing, wild grazing without fodder. So the situation in the communities are very, very different and also the distance from the capital where the markets are.
Also, it sounds like if you give, I’m just trying to check in for understanding here, but if you take the individuals in the community, you provide them with some, I don’t want to say general education, but maybe, um, just for example, just, just to make it easy for me to get mad around it. You teach them some marketing skills. You teach them some
some skills that they can use regardless of which tourism business they decide to go into, those skills will translate. So you might have one person in the community that has a piece of property on the river and likes to fish. And then you’ve got somebody else maybe that lives right next door that has a car who wants to create a shuttle service to a Ulaanbaatar or something.
instead of the community leaders and saying, yes, okay, we’re gonna increase more tourism to our town and this is how we’re gonna do it. And you gotta, if you work within the confines that we’ve set for you, then you can participate. And if not, you’re on your own. You got it, Jason. This is how it works. And then you see the discussion becomes who’s gonna take care of the money, right?
within the community and their neighbors and money is involved. You know, it’s, it’s conflictive, you know? So this is now how it works. So I can see, yeah. So imagine the money. I can see. Go ahead. Yeah. So this I call market intelligence. You know, we have to tell them how it works. You know, why are people coming? A tour operator, what does he do? A local guide. You know, what are your options? You know,
Jason Elkins (34:27.306)
No, I don’t want to work with the others. Okay, you can make a Facebook page or I don’t want to be involved in tourism but I want to sell my potatoes. They can be, that’s the advantage of our business. It is not in one way at all. And most of the community-based tourism is kind of developed in one way, thinking that communities are communities and they are like one. Like in Mongolia and Soviet Union.
Yeah, you know, in Mongolia, we had communism for 40 years. Collective things is, you can’t just guess what they think about it, you know. Yeah. But it works, for example, in, I know a place in Uganda, where you have a community that, that have a sharing economy, they share services and goods and work in tandem with each other. And also the Surama Ecology in Surama village of Guyana in South America.
They’re also an Amerindian village. And they’re also used to, you know, if you put a chainsaw outside your house, you know, your neighbor can pick it up and use it. You know, it’s not yours. They share a lot of things. In those type of communities, it works. But that’s a minority. And most of the- Yeah, because otherwise you’ve got somebody who was appointed, probably not elected, but maybe appointed as the community tourism,
Chief, whatever. Supervise the others. Supervise the others. And it’s his job to make sure everybody in the community pitches in to build tourism. And that person’s… And then you’ve got money involved and probably some rivalries and that person’s in charge for two years. And then a new government comes in and yeah, I can see where that would make things challenging. Yes, it’s really… But it’s really easy. It’s not rocket science.
You know, we just have to understand that communities are, you know, they’re not gorillas, they are people. And in the case of Mongolia, they’re nomads, but they can all read and write. They do listen to radio. It’s not like Africa where you have illiterate people because that’s a whole different cup of tea. I was in Madagascar in April for the World Bank for three weeks. So now I can make do in French quite a bit, but it was truly fascinating.
Jason Elkins (36:52.354)
And so many systematic things are very similar to Mongolia. Ethiopia and Madagascar and Mongolia has a lot in common as well when it comes to the business structure in the country.
Yeah, that’s fascinating. I, that whole conversation, I feel like we could just discuss that all day. And let’s get back to that. And before we do that, I’m just curious because you’re so close to so many things you’ve actually, you and I have corresponded a little bit about, Hey, Jason, I’m noticing this shift and this going on and the, you know, kind of in tourism.
I’d love to touch on that in a sense, not necessarily cover everything that’s changed since you first got into tourism, but what are maybe a couple of the biggest changes around COVID, you know, that we’ve seen come out the last few years, where do you see things going, maybe overall business-wise, not too deep into that, but then also just like any emerging areas of the world that you’re excited about that you think that we should kind of be paying attention to.
Yeah, all businesses around us, they have less staff now and they have recruited new people and it takes some two, three years to train people on the product that you’re working with. So in our case, we are half amount of seasonal staff compared to pre-COVID. So our supply side have shrank and it’s the same for everyone in Mongolia. And mostly we lack cooks.
So for next year, we have to be careful. I think we’re gonna book out and we have to make sure that we fill our spaces only. And that- Why do you think that is? I mean, help me understand why would you have less cooks now than you had four years ago? Because many of the cooks have gone into other jobs and they just stay there. And some-
Jason Elkins (39:03.666)
South Korea is giving visas to Mongolians now for 90 days to come there and work so they can get the double salary in South Korea. So that doesn’t touch us so much because we are already seasonal, right? So if they go to South Korea and work abroad, they work whole year on a rotating basis. They don’t need to work with us so we have less cooks. And it means that we have scarce supply
And that is, you know, and set aside then the inflationary pressure we have all over the world because petrol is going up, because of wars and stuff, food stuff is going up. And also we have scarce human resource. So I think that we are seeing that many companies, they want to stay smaller and increase their prices in one way in the long haul travel businesses.
Jason Elkins (40:03.082)
another side where, so the gap of business strategies is widening very quickly. And you have to decide whether you’re going to be the cheapest on the market or the best one and not worry about what the cost is, you see, and work toward quality. This is a very important issue now for most businesses. And I heard on the grapevine that last year, 2022, you know, North Americans that
flew off to Africa and paid a premium, they returned back. Africa and Europe, they returned home and greatly disappointed because they paid more and the service was less than pre-COVID. They had to recapitalize and maybe they overbooked themselves, I’m not really sure. I just heard on the grapevine that this was a big problem for some operators in the high-end space.
interesting because we see it or I saw it. You know, I’ve been traveling for a couple of years. I’ve seen it internationally, but it’s a little harder for me to pick up on it because I’m not living there. You know, I’m not quite as savvy about what’s going on in the local community, but it’s interesting when I go back to the US to visit, you can see just things like Starbucks. I don’t know why I’m using this example, but it’s like pre-COVID, there was an expectation going to Starbucks in a certain way.
Yeah. And going in there since then, like I’ve sat in, cause I work in coffee shops. I’ve for the first time I was sitting in a Starbucks and they’re like, Oh, you know what? You have to leave the lobby. I’m like, what, why are you guys closing? Well, we’re just closing the lobby. I’m like, why? Well, because we’re understaffed, you know, we don’t have enough staff for people to be in the lobby. So they’ll close the doors and put a sign on the door saying drive through only.
And so it’s kind of an example of where the price of the coffee hasn’t gone down. Yeah. But the, yeah, things are changing. And that’s just a very, very micro example of what I hear you saying with some of the other. No, we have more gaps. That’s what it is, isn’t it? Everywhere. Yeah. And we do not serve customers as seamlessly as we used to do. And I guess in Asia, the airlines are recapitalizing themselves.
Jason Elkins (42:25.246)
and so forth. So there’s a lot of, it’s not, it’s not very mature yet. It sounds like an opportunity for the right operator. Yeah, sure. Right. Everywhere where you have gaps, you have opportunities. So for myself, I decided that we’re going to cap our bookings and make sure that the, the number of staff that we have will match the number of people coming. So we will be fully booked this summer. Okay. I think, I mean the next summer.
And other than Mongolia, because we’re going to, we’re going to talk a little bit more about that. And the other question I have for you is, is there a particular part of the world, area, emerging area that you’re excited about that you’re willing to share with our listeners just to kind of plant a seed? Any predictions for what’s going to be the hotspot two years from now, anything like that? Around the world? Yeah.
Well, I loved Madagascar, but it was, you know, I hadn’t traveled a lot, you know. So it was the first really exotic country that I came to and I hadn’t been there before. And I had school French, you know, and I could better my French while becoming paid. And it was beautiful people and easy to understand what was going on really.
It was an easy job, it was not difficult. And since I’m not fluent in French, they didn’t ask me to write any big reports also.
Jason Elkins (43:56.91)
know, so I could write something in English. So I love Madagascar. I didn’t expect that, but I really loved it and I like Africa. I mean, if we’re not talking about Mongolia, I like Africa and also Guyana is changing quickly. It’s a very diverse country to the east of Venezuela with savannas and highlands and tepuis, you know, these tabletop mountains.
and a lot of rainforests and people speak English and Suriname. These are also countries that I like, but I think Suriname is more difficult at the moment business-wise, but I think Guyana is on its feet. It has a lot of economic growth. Okay. Well, very cool. I appreciate sharing those with us.
Madagascar is one that’s definitely I’ve kind of interest in have not visited. I’ve got a friend there right now. I’m seeing his social media. He’s flying. He wanted to fly balloons and they’re doing some balloons, which is pretty new there, I guess. And they’re just, it’s not for a balloon ride business or anything. They’re just, they just went there to fly balloons. And, um, there, I’ve seen some great videos and images of them landing in some of these small towns and all the people coming out and it’s a, yeah, it seems like that’d be a pretty exciting thing to see. So.
So thank you. So, and what would you, what do you want to make sure that our listeners know? Cause we talked a little bit about Mongolia, but I can tell it’s my sense that you’ve got some more stuff that you want to share about Mongolia, your operation. So people can kind of, you know, if Mongolia is on their list or should it be on their list, what would you like them to know? Yeah, they should plan for 2025, perhaps. Okay. We have still, we still have spaces.
And it’s a fantastic place to go off-grid, you know. So it’s really just about landscapes and the people that live on these landscapes. And the landscapes are very diverse. It’s, you know, we have 3,600 rivers in the North and deserts in the South and high mountains with glaciers and a lot of rivers and lakes and so forth and people on horseback. So it’s a really unique place.
Jason Elkins (46:19.682)
And Ethiopia and Madagascar is also unique on their continents. So Mongolia is quite unique in Asia. Let’s talk about the big thing that might be on a few people’s minds. And if it’s not on their minds, it will be now that I’ve mentioned it. Um, you know, there’s things in the world going on Russia, you know, Mongolian neighbors to the North and then you’ve got China to the South and things going on in the world. So what are your, let’s, let’s at least touch on that.
So people can, you know, just, I’d love for them to understand kind of your thoughts on it. You know, what your concerns are or what maybe people have concerns that are not well-founded. What do you think about all that? Yeah. So, so we have a number of Russians in Ulaanbaatar now, and we should know that there is about a half a million Mongols living in Russia with Russian passports. So cultural Mongolia expands into Siberia to the Eastern side of Lake Baikal and they’re called Buriat Mongols.
So many of them, especially men have come across and work in Ulaanbaatar. And China is the other neighbor. And you know why the Great Wall of China was built 2000 years ago? We’ve heard some stories about that. Chinese and Mongols are like oil and vinegar. It’s really different. You know, they’re farmers and nomads are not farmers. They don’t turn the soil upside down, you know, have been plowed.
It’s grazing lands, so that’s an obvious conflict. So in Mongolia, we’re more worried about China because that’s a dominant economic force. And maybe 80% of everything that Mongolia sells goes out to China. So Mongolia is very reliant on China. It’s not so careless about Russia because Ukraine and European part of Russia is very far away.
And Siberia is very, quite, there’s a very few people, you know, the Trans-Siberian Railway, yeah, it has a few cities on the way, but it’s like satellite accounts to European Russia, really. So we don’t worry so much about the Russians. And there was a Russian system in Mongolia for 40 years prior to the democratization in the 1990s.
Jason Elkins (48:43.046)
So we, we make, so would you say the Mongolian, what I’m hearing, the Mongolian people, society, culture, probably more similar to the Russians are more comfortable, more friendly and just like, okay, there are neighbors. Yeah, there’s stuff going on back in Eastern part or the Western part, I guess, Western part of Russia, but not too concerned about what’s going on there because
Yeah. And when you say we’re more worried about China, help me understand that more. Yeah. Well, worried about them in what way? Mongolia is democratic. So it operates, it’s the best kid on the block in a tough neighborhood. So, so power in China is concentrating and Russia under Putin is perhaps more concentrated power than it was during the Soviet times. Oh.
It’s worse now, you see that? That is okay. But we understand these kinds of things and, and we are not worried about Russia that much. It’s just the economic dominance of China. So Mongolia exercise a third neighbor policy. It means that they give, they give trade favors to South Koreans, to Americans, to Japanese, to non Chinese and to non Russians. Yeah.
That is the balancing act of the government of Mongolia. Is that to reduce reliance on Chinese trade? Yes, sure. To diversify. And how does China respond to that? Oh, they’re fine with, you know, it’s so small. Mongolia is the least populated country on earth next to the most populated country on earth. It’s like nothing. Yeah. It’s really like nothing to them.
So Mongolia is very dependent on China and China probably couldn’t care less about Mongolia. Yes, sure. Yeah. We cannot do what the Ukrainians are doing. We cannot shout at them, the neighbors. We cannot raise our voice. We are gentle and polite to that. So you’ve kind of described the situation a little bit, but again, what’s the like
Jason Elkins (51:06.814)
worry part? What’s the worst case scenario? What’s the thing that would keep anybody up at night that’s doing business in Mongolia when it comes to China? It is something, not China, it’s just something called the resource curse. So Mongolia is very rich in natural resources. So it’s quite common among developing countries that corruption takes over because it’s just a few mineral resources and it’s controlled by a few people.
And it’s handling it quite okay because there is a competition within the Mongolian society for power. So it’s not one power structure. So it’s quite balanced, I think. So it’s a mining country. So we’ve got copper and uranium and coal and gold and everything you can think of. So it’s really like…
Mongolia has a potential to become like Kuwait or Qatar or United Arab Emirates to become very rich because it has very few people to feed and rich in resources. So the power of that resource, so the risk is more internal, I would say, than external.
Jason Elkins (52:29.47)
I think I understand where you’re going. Okay. Yeah. So for example, Botswana has a good reputation for being a resource rich country with a proper government. They rely a lot on diamond trade, Botswana in Africa. Okay. So how does this all impact? Because you’re looking at it through the lens, you’re a business man that does business. Your business is very, very tight into this.
What should the typical tourist or maybe one of your guests that’s considering a trip there, what should their concerns be if any about China or Russia or power shifts and struggles and stuff like that? None at all really. The crime rate is really low also in China and Mongolia has a little bit higher, but it’s not at all like Colombia where you’re now.
South America. It’s very safe, I would say. And you’re a reputable company. I would say that any concerns too, when somebody is planning, because you mentioned, oh, you should look at 2025. That’s a long ways out. You look far in advance. Anybody that’s booking a trip to a place where there’s potential future issues,
politics or that type of thing needs to have a little bit of concern. So I would love to hear your thoughts. How do you guys handle advanced deposits? And what would you tell somebody that’s concerned about, geez, I don’t know if I want to send you a deposit for a trip in 2025 to a country that’s surrounded by Russia on the north and China on the south. And these are my concerns. So how do you address that question? Yeah. So we do not take deposits until…
one month ahead. Oh, okay. Because I work only through agents worldwide. So the agents charge the deposits according to the jurisdictions they’re in. So an American consumer law will dictate what you have to pay. I mean, the entrepreneur decides.
Jason Elkins (54:51.294)
And I know in the United States and Canada, you pay more deposits than they do in other parts of the world. And if we charge, for example, European customers, we have to defend the case very much if we want to have anything ahead of time, more than a month. So what I hear you saying is people probably don’t need to worry too much about them. No.
they’re booking with. But anybody that’s listening to this, like, man, I would never book a trip now for 2025 to Mongolia. And that’s why I wanted to bring that up as maybe it’s worth having a conversation with the region. Yeah. So, you know, for example, we could be asked to pay a non-refundable deposit for a room for three nights during a festival. That could be non-refundable ahead of time, like a year or eight months. Or if you charter a caravan, for example, the airline wanted 50%.
deposit that is nonrefundable so that they understand that this business is coming into them. But otherwise, we do not have any pressure on that. Well, yeah, I just thought that was valid since you mentioned 2025 because that’s always the thought that actually pops into my head. It’s like, man, that’s a long ways out to plan, but maybe plan it, start planning it. But the fly fishing is different though. Okay. Because, because why?
Fly fishing is a 50% non-refundable upon booking. And it books out one and a half or two years ahead of time. That’s a big deal for anybody that’s listening to this that’s not familiar with fly fishing in Mongolia. That’s kind of a bucket list item for many, many people. And because of the logistics and everything you just described, there’s not a lot of spots. And actually one of, I interviewed Jeremy K. Ryan from Orbis Travel, one of my former colleagues.
who has been on a couple of your trips now, I think with clients and it’s kind of a big deal. So I’m happy, happy you brought that up. And I understand that. You see, we, we bought boats from Idaho and RS and we fly in three or four Chilean fly fishing guides from Chile and one from New Zealand. And Peter is in Algeria now and someone from America.
Jason Elkins (57:17.634)
We have to buy these tickets ahead of time, right? And we have to fill up the space. So that is a peculiar business because it’s, it’s just have to fill up. Otherwise we can’t make a profit at all. Well, yeah, and those are spots that are- 8% is not held. There’s not very many spots.
And there’s a lot of things riding on it, a lot of people riding on it, and to have a bunch of fishing guides sitting there looking at empty drift boats. Yes, and also because the fishes that we fish on, you know, the Taiman is a red listed species. So it’s a rare species. So the government doesn’t give, you know, any amount of permits on it. So we hold 120 slots out of 200 available.
for all Mongolia on Tamin. And we’re talking about for anybody that’s listening, because they may have just heard you say this. They may have heard it. It’s an endangered species we’re fishing for. And they can only keep, they might hear you say, we can only keep so many of them. And so for anybody listening to this, please help them understand what is this fly fishing, catch and release, fishing, why is this actually a good thing for the time?
that you’re taking anglers there. Yeah, even according to the law, you have to release all of them alive and handle them gently. So the fly fishermen, they fish with a single barbless hook, hooks and release them. And it creates a value around that resource. And- Why? How does that create the value around the resource? I have some ideas in my head based on other areas that have gone similar directions.
But how does having fly fishermen from the US come cat-nimen actually help protect the timing? Yeah, again, it is off-grid travel. So a lot of work is needed during that season. So we employ a lot of young people from the locals to run, operate the whole business on two rivers. So it’s great value locally. And- Now those people that are-
Jason Elkins (59:34.986)
making money from that are incentivized to protect the rivers, take care of the rivers, the local communities. Is that correct? Do you sense that? Yeah. Or what would happen? And then there is a $500 conservation fee that goes into conservation. And part of that, a big chunk of that the government is taking, which shall go to the schools in the community and so on from each angler.
So a time in the river for fly fishermen from the US.
has some value to it as opposed to if the fisherman from the US is not coming, they’re that time and the river could be a meal for a local family could be any number of things or other things that they might want to damn the river, use the resources for something else. My understanding it kind of incentivizes the communities to benefit from the care of the time. And yeah, or maybe that’s just a story I’ve created in my head. I don’t know. What do you think?
No, our Chilean and New Zealand fly fishing guides, they tell us that over there, the trout has been introduced by the British. So there is no apex predator in those rivers. So those trout, they eat everything that’s there and then the population collapses. So the population of trout goes up and down and these are prime fisheries, right?
Chile and New Zealand, but in Mongolia we have an apex natural apex predator. There are no introduced species. So the number of fishes regulates itself perfectly because we have smaller trout as well. What is the apex predator? Timon. That’s the apex predator, right? Because then you’ve got trout in the river as well. Yes, and graylings and pike. Really? Pretty cool.
Jason Elkins (01:01:34.678)
It’s on my bucket list. I remember putting together some trips and never actually led one to Mongolia with you and I look forward to doing that at some point. All right. We’ve discussed a lot of things and I have a feeling like we could discuss many more and I want to give you an opportunity to just address anything I forgot to ask you, should have asked you or anything, anything else you think the listeners really need to understand before we wrap this up. I think we’re fine. Isn’t it? Yeah. A lot of good stuff. Yes. And.
And again, anybody that’s, you know, you know, I’ve, I’ve worked with Yann in the past, one of the most respected people in that part of the world doing tourism and obviously the fact that other places in the world have asked you to come in and consult and work with them as well is, is a great endorsement and just, I will have your website link in the show notes so people can connect with you to just kind of learn more about what you’re doing with 360 degrees Mongolia. And
Yeah. Thank you so much for taking time to be here today on this old afternoon, I guess, or it’s getting into the evening there in Sweden. So appreciate you taking time. It’s pitch dark. Thank you, Jason. It’s pitch dark. It is. How long is the day right now? Or how long is daylight this time of year? Until three o’clock afternoon. It’s now four o’clock. And what is it? Does that start around 11 in the morning until three in the afternoon? Yeah, until 10. 9.30 to 3.30.
I lived in Alaska for a while. I remember some of that. So anyway, Jan, what a pleasure. You just brought so much value and information to myself and to the listeners. So thank you for sharing so much. Appreciate you. Thank you, Jason.
Tags: Adventure travelTravelMongoliaTourismConservationGlobal TourismFishingTaimen
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