Guest Bio
Jess McGlothlin is a freelance photographer and writer operating under Jess McGlothlin Media. With roots in Montana and a background in equestrian sports, Jess has shaped a career that blends storytelling through both images and words. Her work often explores outdoor adventure, conservation, and the human connections found in remote and rugged environments.
Show Summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Jess McGlothlin about her unique journey from a rodeo and equestrian kid in Montana to an internationally recognized travel photographer and writer. Jess shares how her early experiences living abroad and working in the horse industry led her to pursue a career that would allow her to travel extensively while telling stories through photography and writing.
They discuss the importance of combining compelling visuals with narrative to create impactful storytelling, particularly in adventure and fishing-related media. Jess also offers insights into working with lodges and tour operators, emphasizing the value of authentic human connection in photography to help potential guests imagine themselves in those settings. She highlights the practical challenges of travel photography, including the realities of constant travel, logistics, and maintaining health in demanding environments.
Throughout the conversation, Jess reflects on the lessons learned from her diverse experiences—from shooting wildfires in Montana to scouting new fisheries worldwide—and offers advice to adventure travel businesses on how to better showcase their stories through professional photography and thoughtful guest engagement.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Combining photography and writing strengthens storytelling and delivers a more cohesive narrative for editorial and marketing purposes.
- ✓ Building trust and rapport with lodge guests and staff over time leads to more authentic and relaxed photos.
- ✓ Including human elements in lodge and travel photography helps potential visitors connect emotionally with the experience.
- ✓ Understanding the subject matter deeply improves the quality and relevance of photography for niche markets like fly fishing and adventure travel.
- ✓ Photographers often work in austere or non-guest accommodations to reduce costs and better integrate with local teams.
- ✓ Editorial placements can provide valuable exposure for lodges and destinations while helping cover travel costs for photographers.
- ✓ Drone photography adds perspective but requires careful adherence to local regulations and respect for privacy.
- ✓ Teaching guides and staff how to take better photos can improve guest satisfaction and tips.
- ✓ Travel photography is demanding, involving long hours, logistical challenges, and health considerations like hydration and rest.
- ✓ Collaboration among multiple lodges or operators can help optimize photography projects and reduce costs.
What You’ll Find on Jess McGlothlin Media
- ✓ Professional photography and writing services focused on adventure travel and outdoor lifestyles.
- ✓ In-depth storytelling that combines compelling images with narrative to highlight fisheries, conservation, and remote destinations.
- ✓ Consulting and management support for fishing lodges and adventure travel operations, including destination assessment and marketing strategy.
- ✓ Expertise in capturing genuine human moments and the daily life behind the scenes at lodges and in the field.
- ✓ Instruction and workshops aimed at helping guides and travelers improve their photography skills.
- ✓ Use of drone technology to provide aerial perspectives while prioritizing ethical and legal considerations.
Learn more about Jess McGlothlin Media and connect with Jess at:
https://www.jessmcglothlinmedia.com/
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Jason Elkins (00:01.75)
Welcome everybody to another episode of the big world made small podcast for the adventure traveler. I’m super excited today. I’ve got a former colleague from Orvis here on the show. We’ve got Jess McGlothlin. Jess is a freelance photographer and writer for Jess McGlothlin Media. I think that a lot of our listeners are already going to know your name. One thing I’ll just share because it came out recently. I was on your website and I saw it on some of the social media stuff and just to put this into perspective.
But according to Men’s Journal, your fly fishing’s Michael Jordan as a woman and her name is Jess McGlothlin. That’s pretty cool. So I thought I better throw that out there. Jess, welcome to the show. Happy to have you here. Thanks for having me, Jason. I’m excited to be here. I’m calling in from a very gray Missoula, Montana, this morning. So it looks nice and sunny wherever you are. I’m in, yeah, I’m in Colombia. It’s like 75 degrees every day, year round. And as someone who…
Grew up in Wyoming and lived in Montana for quite a while. I remember what Jan, we’re recording this in January. I remember what that was like. So. You know how it’s like. Yeah, yeah, Missoula is one of my favorite places. And so happy to have you join us from Missoula. Thank you. So we’re gonna discuss kind of what you do, but before we do that, I wanna kind of tap into the why and understand how did you get from wherever you were to where you are now?
We don’t have to cover every detail, but how far back do you want to go? Where’s the furthest point back in your history that’s relevant to why is Jess doing this kind of work? Oh, I mean, we could go. I think my first published piece as a kid was in like Highlights magazine, which I hope still exists. I don’t know if it does. It used to be a kid’s magazine that mailed and you can always find it in doctors offices and things. So I’ve done the writing thing for a long time. How old were you when you did that? Gosh, eight.
So eight or nine, I was very young. That’s impressive. I do remember those magazines. I hope there’s still a little older than you are. They’ve been around for a while, but you’re right. I haven’t seen one in a while. That’s pretty cool. Yeah, so the writing at least for me goes way back. And I grew up in Montana, Northwest Montana, a town called Colombia Falls, and was a rodeo kid and a horse kid as we do out here. You’ve lived in the West, you know how it is. Very blue color family. None of my family traveled.
Jason Elkins (02:18.986)
I think at this point, my brothers left the US to go to the Bahamas to fish once. But my parents, my mom traveled as a child a bit, but my dad, I don’t think has ever left the country. So it did not come from a traveling background. And I wanted to find a career that would allow me to travel and see the world, but obviously did not come from the financial background to do it recreationally.
And for a while for me that was going to be the equestrian thing. I wanted to go get a job in the horse industry Internationally, which I did I took a job at 17 in Calgary. So moved up to Canada, which is not very far Thankfully from where I grew up and then took a job also at 17 in Sweden And so I was able to move abroad at a young age and kind of experience I think my first roundabout, you know my first like driving outside of rural, Montana and experiencing that and
What did your parents think? Since they weren’t avid travelers, what did they think their 17-year-old daughter taking off and go to a different country? They weren’t thrilled. Thankfully, I think Canada’s just across the border here. Sweden’s pretty benign. It was very benign at that point in time. So it was like, okay, it’s first world comfortable travel, but they were not very happy with that. But they let me go, which was great. Did they go with you to either place to check it out, make sure they were comfortable with it, or you just went?
buy the ticket, take the ride, which has been a theme throughout my, I turned 36 tomorrow. So it’s been almost 20 years of this kind of travel. Buy the ticket, take the ride. Which is, it’s still how I operate for better or worse. I think my parents, they’re a bit more at ease with it now. There’s still some trips where they’re just like, we don’t want to know about it until you’re back. You know, it’s, there are some for sure that they’re not thrilled about, but they’re getting over it.
All right. So how did you, so go, let’s go start, pick up the conversation back in Sweden. So where did you go from there? So I came back to the U S and actually had a couple of years of running a, a really successful equestrian business, kind of training horses, importing and horses. I had learned a lot in those jobs overseas. So I was able to bring that back and carve a good kind of niche in the U S horse market and then burned out hard and fast. I got really tired of.
Jason Elkins (04:42.134)
It’s a longer discussion, but, but seeing people without training ruin horses that I had put a lot of training on, you know, it’s, I was that middleman who would invest a lot of time and energy into a horse and then sell it to someone who could, could pay me. It was great, but they might not be at the level of training that I would want to see with that course. And I decided that’s a tough dilemma when you’re, you know, you’ve got this connection to the horse and all the work and time and effort you put into it. But then you also want to make money and yeah, I can see where that.
be. It’s a business. I mean, I, I had my first LLC, I think this business was a functional business with a bank account at age 13. So I had been running this as a business for six years. And then at 19, I burned out and I was just like, okay, my life plan. I’m very type A, I literally had like, every five years of my life, here are my goals. You know, this is the point at which I, I want to go to the Olympics. And at one point, I was apprenticing under two different Olympic riders. So I was on track for that. And
I was left very much with a, oh no, what do I do? Like a midlife crisis at age 19. Which is terrifying. Midlife crisis at 19 and knew I wanted to travel. Travel’s kind of been the three line through all this. So it was a step back to say, okay, what else do I wanna do with my life? What else can I do with my life to allow me to travel? So I started writing again and then I had editors say, hey, I like these stories, but we can’t run it unless you have photos.
And thus we have a visual to go with the written story. And so- What were those first stories like that you were presenting? I mean, travel stories without having gone? They were, no, they were Southwestern Montana. I was living in Bozeman at the time. It’s very, very small world, very niche-y, but investigative stories on fisheries conservation. Okay. Because again, Montana kid, I grew up fly fishing. That’s been a passion of mine for many, many years.
And that was something I knew and could write to. So my first big magazine story was a piece about a hydroelectric dam on Quake Lake, which is a really famous story near West Yellowstone, Montana. Yeah. And this Australian company wanted to put in this dam. They wouldn’t give anyone an interview because they were trying to do it under the table. I kind of went in and played dumb. And I was like, I’m an 18-year-old girl. I just, I’m curious about what you’re doing. Can you talk to me? And I met the guy at a coffee shop in Bozeman, got the story, and then sent it to
Jason Elkins (07:07.026)
American Angler, which is now defunct, sadly, but they were a great magazine with a great editor. And he said, Hey, I like it, but we need photo proof of the site. It was a closed construction site at that point in time. So I, I mean, I was making pennies at this point, working retail in an outdoor shop. I ate rice and beans for many months and saved up and bought my first DSLR camera at Costco. You know, they sell the great kits at Costco and snuck onto the site and took the photos.
The article then ran, caused kind of a hubbub, and years later it was actually used in court to help turn the project down. So for me, that light bulb moment didn’t come until several years later when I saw the impact that piece had, but it was a really cool realization of words plus images when both are executed well are a really powerful thing. They’re a really powerful storytelling package. And as one person, I can get a much more kind of coherent story.
cohesive story, uh, doing both those sides instead of having like a separate writer and a photographer go into the field, trying to match the two together. Yeah. And editors of course like it and, and my travel clients like it because it’s cheaper. Right. You send one body into the field instead of two. So I don’t know. That was a, that was kind of the light bulb moment of like, Hey, this words plus images thing is a thing. It works. All right. Yeah.
Very cool. And that was obviously fishing related, conservation related, Montana related. A lot of things. Were you into fishing already at that point or? I was, I thankfully, my dad’s star, I have a brother who’s a year younger. He started both of us fishing as like toddlers. I think I have very young memories holding a pink Barbie rod, which as soon as I could manage a fly rod became a fly rod. So had started young and at least was exposed to that industry early.
Okay. That’s very cool. And you mentioned you were working at an outdoor shop in Bozeman. Was that a fly shop? Sportsman’s warehouse. For those who are familiar, it’s like a warehouse. I lived in Bozeman for five years. You know that store very well. Oh yeah. So it’s, I guess for those who don’t live where there are sportsman’s warehouses, it’s like a kind of a budget warehouse hunting, fishing store is how I would best describe it. Cool. So yeah, I paid the bills while I was kind of learning what I wanted to do in this world.
Jason Elkins (09:31.466)
So when that light bulb, you mentioned it was a few years after that article published that you kind of saw the connection, so where did that take you? So through those few years, I was still in Bozeman working the day job while I was building out a portfolio. Cause I knew the jobs I wanted to get were the international jobs. So I could get out traveling again and seeing the world, but no one’s gonna send me those places if I don’t have work to show. So I spent that time working the day job and then shooting.
kind of everything I could in the downtime. Luckily Bozeman, as you know, is rife with outdoor opportunities. And I love shooting forest fires. And for better or worse, we have a very long fire season in Montana these days. So I spend a lot of time kind of pitching myself to local newspapers saying, sure, I’ll go put on all the gear and hang out with the wildland firefighters. And they’re just like, we don’t know who this girl is, but she’s willing to go be like hot and sweaty and miserable with these guys. So sure, we’ll pay you pennies essentially to go do that.
But it was a really good way to, I think for me at that young age, to build the portfolio and also start to learn how to manage myself in somewhat austere environments, which is a lot of what I do now in my career is, okay, we think Jess can survive this environment and get a story, let’s cinder it. Which is, I enjoy that work a lot. It gets harder as I get older, but I still really enjoy it. So that was kind of a training ground for that kind of work. What do you think?
about your personality, your upbringing that made it possible or comfortable for you to be uncomfortable.
That’s a good question. I think I was lucky I had parents who were very much the like brush it off and try again. You know, if I was that kid who always was getting injured, I had so many broken bones and medical issues as a kid because I was always out trying things and my parents were always just like, yeah, walk it off. And then if it was a broken bone, eventually they’d be like, okay, several days later, we have to take you to the hospital. So I was I was very well taken care of. My parents are great. But they were also a bit of the tough love of just like, go figure it out.
Jason Elkins (11:38.19)
Um, which I hugely benefits me now. I think there was not a lot of coddling when I was young. Yeah. It’s, it’s interesting because I, I’m not sure I want to go here, but we’re going to go here is when I think of somebody that’s young that grows up around horses and is involved in equestrian stuff, sometimes there’s this kind of stereotype. Absolutely. And I wonder, cause.
I don’t think that, okay, there’s that stereotype. And then there’s hanging out in, you know, the woodland firefighting camps, which is like a different, totally different thing. And I’m curious if it’s the difference between growing up in Missoula, you know, doing equestrian stuff in Missoula as opposed to doing equestrian stuff in Palm Springs or California or…
upstate New York or what do you think? You traveled a lot, you’ve been around a lot of people that were involved with horses, it sounds like. Is there a difference between the Montana horse girl and the, the horse girl from other places? I think yes. And I think it’s even difficult to bucket into that. I was very much the, the blue collar. Like we had a, a business that was a boarding and training center. So we were, we’re boarding other people’s horses and we had no hired help. So it was basically the family.
You know, we have 30 horses and you get up and you muck those stalls and feed those horses 365 days a year, even when it’s 40 below. So it was a really good lab of like we’re the grunt work or the workers and that I’ve seen that really benefit me ironically in the lodge work I do I help manage lodges around the world and consult with lodges and obviously photograph for them. And one of the first things I do is go like hang out in the kitchen.
and go hang out with the mechanical staff and the maintenance guys and just say like, can I hang out with you for a day and learn what you do? And that’s, I think that’s backfired on me once. Most of the time people are just so excited that you want to kind of not come down to their level, but often guests treat it that way. You know, in lodges we’ll have people who are sometimes like, oh, it’s the kitchen staff. And they get so excited when you’re excited about what they do. And I think growing up kind of doing the daily grind.
Jason Elkins (13:55.97)
definitely has helped me just be like, hey, that lodge doesn’t run without that cook. It doesn’t run without, you know, a barn doesn’t run without someone feeding the horses. Everyone’s important all in the way. And those are often the most interesting people with the best stories because they see the day to day, uh, drama or grind or whatever you want to call it. That goes on, you know, this, you spend a lot of time in lodges. It’s like, they know the good stuff. It was, it was always fun when I was traveling to really just connect with everybody.
Absolutely. You know, at the place, not just the camp manager, the lodge manager, not just the fishing guide that I was with, but the driver, the guy that went down and picked up the boats and cleaned the boats, they’re awesome. I just hang out with them and I managed, I managed my wife and I at the time managed turn of flats and you know, hanging out with ladies in the kitchen was a tree, you know, every once in a while we’d go have dinner with the staff because the car, I mean, I loved our clients. I loved our guests and I’m not saying I don’t.
But sometimes it was just so much fun to just go back in the kitchen and eat with the staff and just listen to their conversations. And they just loved it. You know, they, they loved that we’d go back there and, um, just kind of hang out with them and listen to their stories, teasing each other, teasing us. It was, it was a lot of fun. So it’s fun. I think at any work environment, even if you’re working like a, an office job, I’ve had a conversation with someone earlier this week who’s a, uh, engineer for Spotify, which is so far beyond any of my comprehension. Like that’s not my world, but he was talking about just like, if you can meet,
people where they are and have those really human conversations in any work environment. I think it’s beneficial to them and it’s hugely beneficial to you. That’s how you learn. Well, there’s the, this is a recurring theme that comes up in a lot of the conversations that I’m having when we talk about adventure travel, because I believe that adventure travel or you know, what does adventure travel mean? It doesn’t necessarily mean, you know, wingsuiting in the Swiss Alps or, you know, shark diving or whatever.
For me, it’s just anybody that’s willing to step out of their comfort zone. I’m curious. If you can step out of your comfort zone and you have a curious mind, you can pretty, you could probably go on a cruise ship and have an adventure, I don’t know. Yeah, everything can be an adventure. As weird and maybe cheesy as that sounds, it’s like, it’s in your mindset. It’s in your approach. It’s in the mindset and what it tends, in my experience, it always tends to come down to some sort of personal connection. True. Because, you know, we can look at, okay, the Kamchatka Peninsula, you know,
Jason Elkins (16:21.07)
is amazing place. Now I’ve never been there personally, but I’ll tell you what, if you said, Jason, you can go to Kamchaca, we’re gonna drop you off on the side of the river and you’re not gonna see anybody for a week. I’d be like, can I just wait and go and there’s gonna be a few people around? Right. You know, it’s like, I’ve seen some amazing places and I’ve seen a few amazing places by myself. You know, I lived in Montana. I did some amazing little.
walks into some places to go fishing, but it was always better. When I’d rather guide a client into a river than to go there by myself. You know, and it was just, um, so I think that connection’s hugely, hugely important. And, you know, my best memories come down to just people I met on the street, you know, uh, a guy I met in Kuala Lumpur last summer that, um, he was probably 19 or 20. And I sat across from him in this little.
funky little place to get a bowl of soup or something. And, you know, it’s one of those places we all sit together. And he was intrigued by me. So started a conversation and he lived over in Eastern Malaysia, but had been working on a plantation, on an oil plantation for like palm oil as a tractor mechanic and had just done three months’ debt and he was getting ready to go back the next day to see his family.
So we had this great conversation about his experience and this and that, his English was pretty good. That’s so cool. And it was like so cool. And then they got up, him and his buddy got up and I said goodbye, shook their hand and they walked right behind me and paid for my lunch. Oh, that’s awesome. And they weren’t saying anything. The waitress working there had mentioned it to me and I was like, this is so cool. So we took the picture together and I’m a 50 year old guy with a 19 year old.
a tractor mechanic in Malaysia that just bought my lunch. And it was just, you know, those, those little connections are more exciting than, you know, than some of the other more exotic stuff or the fish that I’ve caught here and there or whatever. So I get it. Absolutely. I always remember like the conversations in those places or conversations by the river. It’s the fish are great for me. Like the fish photos are how I make my living. You always need that. But the, the photos I take along the way of like portraits of those people and just the random little things, that’s, that’s what makes me.
Jason Elkins (18:39.766)
do this for 15 years. Like that’s what keeps me fresh and interested, I think. Yeah, that’s, do you, when you’re traveling, if you’re in like just some random city or you’re hanging out somewhere, do you go out on the street and just capture those photos of people? I do. Yeah, and I, it depends. I’m always traveling alone, right? And so I’m a 35 year old, very American girl traveling with expensive camera gear. So I’m…
I’m always cognizant of like, okay, take care of myself. But as you know, most places people are pretty good. There’s as many bad, I’ve had more bad experiences in US cities than I have abroad. You know, just to throw that out there. Like I’ve, I actually had a legit assault with someone trying to take my camera in Austin. I’ve never had that anywhere else in the world. But yeah, absolutely. I’ll take, even if it’s my phone, if I’m not in a place where I’m comfortable carrying a big DSLR, I’ll go out and.
If I don’t speak the language, it’s always I make eye contact and kind of lift the camera and make sure people know I’m taking their photo. I think it’s a good courtesy and just be like, Hey, is this okay? And people usually love it. You know, people are, are flattered that I want to take a photo of them. And if they don’t want it, great. I’d move on and it’s no problem. But yeah, I see that as I travel, you know, I’m in Colombia right now and. It’s like pretty much every day. I.
you know, go for a walk. I’m out walking around and I see something. I’m like, oh my gosh, I really want to get a picture of this person. And my Spanish is pretty good. I can communicate, but I haven’t quite got to that point where I just do it. Sometimes they’ll do it with me. Asia was interesting because I must look like somebody. Actually, somebody here in Colombia the other day said I look like the guy on Pawn Stars, Pawn Stars, the older guy that, anyway, he’s bald, middle-aged guy with the belly.
Just own it and say, yeah, that’s me. Yeah, yeah, that’s me. And I was like, I wasn’t sure at one point, but the woman I was with said, oh no, he’s good looking. I’m like, okay then. There you go, own it for sure. But when I was in Asia, it was really interesting because several times I had strangers just walk up to me and want a photo with me. Or like, I remember I was at this one place and this family came over and asked me if they could take a picture of me with their, I guess, grandfather. The English wasn’t great. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (21:03.442)
And he stood next to me, we put our arms around each other, they took the picture and went along their way. And I had quite a few instances like that and I was starting to think, man, I think it’s just, like, I must look like somebody. That’s amazing. But I just look different. Right. I look different and they’re excited about that and it’s really, really cool. So I think photography is important in connecting people. I’ve connected with so many people that I never would have connected with because of stuff like that. Exactly. Again.
the random little moments on the street that you can’t plan for. I always warn clients, like if I’m going to a location for a client shoot, we have a shot list and they have a list of what they want. And I always warn them like, here, we’ll get the shot list, but you’re probably gonna get some other stuff that’s not on your list that just happens. And I think that’s a beautiful thing. Even if you’re not a photographer, like travel, you can’t plan for everything. Things just happen. And often those are the best parts of the trip because it’s just spontaneous.
I haven’t traveled with you. I haven’t had that opportunity, but I did travel with Val Atkinson a couple of times with Orvus Trips. And one of the things I liked about Val is, we’d be sitting there having a conversation with a group where he’d just sit there with his camera in his lap. Yep. And people would be joking, telling jokes. And then just every once in a while, boom, he just picks it up, captures the moment, puts it right back in his lap. Totally. And he’s just there the whole time observing what’s going on. And he was able to capture just these spontaneous things because that’s so much better than.
Hey everybody, look at the camera. I’m getting ready to take a picture of you. This might be in a magazine. And I suspect you probably kind of do the same type of thing. I can imagine you doing that. Yeah, I’m very documentary in my style. I do go to great lengths to avoid posing people. I just, people look stiff, even if they’re models. I’ve worked with some really good, like high fashion, New York City models. And unless you give them a task or give them something to do, they still get stiff. Cause they’re like, am I doing what you want? They’re obviously very good at what they do, but.
If you give people, especially non-paid models, you give them a task or something. I was teaching a photo workshop in Denver this past Saturday. And we talked a lot about that, of just having your camera ready to kind of snipe. Like if you’re in that situation, obviously people see you have a camera. There’s kind of an inherent permission in that. And if you can get people, especially after dinner, like a couple of drinks in, laughing and having fun.
Jason Elkins (23:21.558)
I’m always careful that there’s a certain point in the night sometimes where the camera gets put away. You don’t want to get photos of incriminating things, but you get those fun, relaxed photos where people are like, they’re genuinely laughing. If I turned around to a guide on the river and say, you know, Hey, we’re having a rough day, but I need you to laugh and make it look like this is fun. I’m probably getting a middle finger in return. Right. So it’s, it’s being ready for those moments. And I do think it’s important to capture the, the non-smiley moments as well, because that’s relatable. I think that’s a part of travel. We often don’t.
market or don’t talk about and it’s hard if you’re your destination or you’re a lodge owner, obviously you’re want to show people having fun, but at least for me with my editorial work the shots of like I have one shot that’s been really famous past years of a friend who was bitten up by uh, Sanfley’s really badly in Belize and he’s holding a bellicombe to his ankles trying to ice it because he’s so miserable and that’s relatable every time that photo gets published somewhere. I get this volley of emails and comments with people being like
I’ve done that. I remember that, you know, being that miserable on the plane home, but I had no cold beer to ice my leg with. And so I think it’s like the bad stuff’s relatable too, for sure. So it’s mixing both. Well, it automatically adds credibility to the photographer that you capture something that so many people can relate to. Yeah. Cause yeah, I, you know, I mentioned I lived in Belize for a while. I think we were on turn off flats for eight months and I think the first three months, my wife went to bed.
crying every night. I believe it. It can be terrible out there. Yeah. And I’m not suggesting anybody avoid Belize. Belize is awesome. It was a unique situation that we were in. And it’s not necessarily turn a flat sing, but it had to do with the staff and the management didn’t always have air conditioning in the rooms. So it was a little different than some of the guest experience. But anyway, no, I think that’s very cool. And actually, let’s touch on this because it’s a very interesting story.
I think we just did touch on it. I want to expand on it because I believe there’s some folks listening to this, to the show right now that are tour operators that have lodges. And I know I spend a lot of time on their websites and I know that if I go to their website, I’m going to see some photos of rooms. I’m going to see some photos of maybe beaches, maybe mountains, maybe rivers, and oftentimes not a lot of people in them. I’m always kind of shocked how many websites are full of
Jason Elkins (25:42.902)
really amazing, like well taken photos, but it’s really hard to connect. I was just saying, I wouldn’t want to go to come talk if I was by myself. Exactly. Yeah. Right. So what do you want to say to these lodge owners or these, uh, these tour operators that are using all these pictures that maybe are great pictures, but they’re not including any human connection. What do you want to say to them? Having a human connection is key. People need to be able to picture themselves and their buddies in that environment. And like you just said, it’s hard to do when you’re staring at
know, probably a gorgeous shot of a nice room that’s beautifully outfitted, but there’s no human element to it. When I’m shooting lodge rooms, I always have, you know, if I’m a person to put in the room, I at least have my luggage there. It’s very tidily set there and it’s, you know, nicely posed, but it shows that someone’s living there for a few days. Maybe your rod tubes laying across the bed or your, you know, your flat’s booties by the door or something. Right. Some life. And I’ve, I’ve seen the most success shooting lodges in two ways. Either the lodge will
give me budget or leeway to bring down a friend or two, which is great, because then I have people who know me and are used to having a camera shoved in their faces. You know, I can pose them and say like, go have a drink at this bar and look nice. You know, that’s an ideal situation. The other way it works out well is if I’m able to go to a lodge and spend time and spend, you know.
A week or two, the guests then kind of get to know me. The first few days are not very productive for shooting because they’re like, there’s this chick running around with a camera, but as I get to hang out with them at the bar, hopefully get on the water with them, fishing, they began to relax around me. Um, often I think if you show up almost as a guest, right? Exactly. I just, I’m envisioning this is Jess. She just joined us today. She’s going to be here for a week doing some fishing and
And, and they just see you around with the camera a lot and you’re having conversations with them about, oh yeah, that’s something I do is I take a lot of pictures, then that changes the dynamic as opposed to, Hey, we’ve got a big shot photographer. We paid a lot of money to come in. In the middle of your vacation, right? Cause I need, I need them to understand that like, Hey, if I’m, if you’re here, you might end up on the cover of a magazine or you might end up in a campaign. And so there’s, there is kind of that talk of like, okay, guys, I’m here to work.
Jason Elkins (27:55.842)
but I hopefully get the time to spend with them often first night at a lodge. Honestly, I’ll bring my camera, sit out on the table, lens pointed across from me at whoever I’m eating with, but with the lens cap on, I don’t take a photo the whole night, but they just kind of subliminally see like Jess and the camera and it’s okay. She’s safe. She’s not ambushing us the first, within the first five minutes of meeting her. I’m not paparazzi. I’m not, you know, try not to be a terrible person. So it’s, it’s just getting them to let
to be comfortable around me and be natural around me, which is almost impossible to do if I’m in there for two or three days. I have a lot of lodges say, hey, you’re coming to this country. Can you swing by and visit us? We’ll pay you a day rate, but we only can do two or three days. And then I have to have the talk with them of like, sure, but here’s what you’re gonna get. And that’s not the ideal situation. And that’s a big part of my business, honestly, is the short trips. I hate it as a photographer. I could show up and we have three days of weather and I’m unable to get shots.
you know, or it’s all interior. So it’s, it’s always a back and forth with the lodges of like, hey, we’re doing an outdoor activity. Um, we don’t know how the guests are going to be. I could show up and they have a bunch of guests booked in who just do not want their picture taken period, which means guess what? I’m there even from there for a week. I don’t have anyone to photograph except for staff. So it’s always a balance of like, Hey, how can we set ourselves up for success? And, um,
Luckily, at least on the fishing industry, I’ve been around long enough where I can reach out to guides. I’ll be in Argentina next month. And I’ve been able to reach out to a few of the guides at the destinations I’m shooting and be like, hey, you know, we know each other from wherever or we’re buddies with this shared person. I’m going to show up, start thinking of some cool stuff we could do or something. And you know how guides are fishing or just outdoor guides, guides talk, because there’s nothing else to do when you’re in a place for several months.
And so I know those guys are talking to their teams of like this scrolls coming with cameras. And typically it becomes a conversation of like, well, what can we do to like impress the photographer, which is great for me, because then they’re invested in it and they’re excited about the idea of maybe being on a cover of magazine. They love that. And so they want to, to kind of see how we can get outside the normal program for guests, like what cool stuff can we go take just to do, which is awesome for me, it’s fun and it results in. Like very unique.
Jason Elkins (30:16.386)
pictures compared to just showing up and being like, Hey, I’m the photographer. I need to shoot my shot list and nothing else. If I can get the guides and the staff invested in wanting to create something cool, that could end up on a magazine cover. It’s just, it’s better. It’s more productive and it’s so much more fun. I think we’ve, I think we’ve, you’ve answered this in touchdown already, but I’m just curious if you were to look at a website for a, let’s say a fishing lodge or they could be anything in eco lodge, whatever, and you know, maybe South America that doesn’t have any.
you know, guests or people that look like guests in their photos, maybe a few people that look like maybe the lodge owners, kids or something. It happens. What is yeah, what’s your assumption? I mean, if you had to make an assumption why they are only using the photos they’re using, do you jump to budgetary lack of understanding? What is generally what’s generally getting in the way of them having photos that create that connection? Both of those, I think budget.
Maybe they’re not willing to hire. I see a lot of large sites where they’re, you can tell they didn’t hire a professional photographer. They might’ve hired a buddy who’s a pretty good shot, but there are, there are differences right between like real estate photographer. You can tell if someone who understands the subject matter, be it like skiing. If someone sent me on a skiing shoot, I could get pretty shots, but I’m not a skier, so I would not be able to capture like the, the inherent things that makes skiing cool.
So you need someone to understand the subject matter. They probably didn’t want to spend the budget for that. Or maybe they’re a new operation. You know, a lot of new operations don’t have the startup capital to hire someone like me to come in. So that always makes me want to go and like click to the about us page and see if there’s a founding date. Cause that’s often the case of like, okay, the program’s a year or two old. They haven’t had the, you know, the time availability or money maybe to get a shooter in.
Yeah, cause I can envision, you know, they, or maybe they just never update the foot, you know, maybe when they open, they’re really, they know they need some photos, but they’ve got a friend who does photos for a hotel or something, you know, and they, they come in and take some pictures. They don’t have any guests staying in the place yet. They’re not a lot of guests and, um, or they.
Jason Elkins (32:31.394)
they do it in the off season when they think, oh, we need to do photos. So they bring in a photographer in the off season. And they have room in the launch to house someone then. That often is in a case I spend most of my time. I had this conversation with someone over the weekend, like, I go to all these cool lodges and it must be really nice to stay in these gorgeous rooms and eat all this nice food. As a photographer, often I am in guide quarters or I’m like, I’m not staying. I am not getting the guest experience, which is fine. I love hanging out with the guides.
prefer that. But I think there’s this assumption on the lodges behalf of like, okay, if we hire a photographer, we need to make sure we allot a guest room, which for them is kind of lost money, right? That’s lost income for a week. So I’d say don’t be afraid to reach out to photographers and think outside the box. I’ve spent I mean, I spent several weeks in Africa staying with guides last year and in Iceland and Bolivia. So like I
it’s not
Jason Elkins (33:55.146)
extremely good destination photographers who will not travel unless they stay in premium rooms. That’s just and nothing against them. They probably like have a very different experience than I do and good for them. But just don’t be afraid to reach out to a photographer and be like hey how do you work? How do you prefer to go about this? Because it’s never a one-size-fits-all. Okay and do you…
I can imagine a scenario where you’re going, you know, you get contracted by a eco tour lodge in Colombia and.
probably better for you and maybe even for them. If you’re able to do multiple clients on one trip. Right. Is that something you generally try and coordinate or how does, like, if I’m sitting here, if I’m sitting in Colombia, listening to you right now, I know I need new photos for my lodge. Right. Should I start reaching out to a few other places around me and say, hey guys, let’s pitch in and work out a deal with Jess? Or should they call you right off the bat? What do you think?
Ideally the first, ideally if folks come to me and say, hey, we’re kind of a consortium or a conglomerate or whatever you want to call it. Me and my buddies need you to come shoot our lodges. That saves me the groundwork of saying, okay, I’m gonna be, the shoot in Argentina next month is a good example. One lodge reached out to me down at Jurassic Lake. So very far apart of the country down south. And I then reached out to a couple other friends and said, hey, what other lodges do you know who might need stuff shot?
And then this same client ended up coming back and saying, oh, wait, we have other properties in Argentina. We kind of would like to hire you to shoot those while you’re down here. Um, so being able, if it comes from the client side, that saves me the trouble of then reaching out and trying to drum up other work, um, but again, and just from a negotiation standpoint, I mean, I’m just guessing if I’m going to reach out to you and say, Jess, what’s it going to cost for you to come down? Right. I’ve got five places I want you to photograph.
Jason Elkins (35:58.09)
As opposed to one place, I can just imagine that might be a better deal. Exactly. It’s a great point of negotiation. It’s, you know, like any business, it’s a back and forth, but the, I typically work on a day rate. And so for me, as a photographer, I can go down to go to Colombia and shoot for 20 days instead of 10. Even if those 20 days are at a reduced rate, I still come out ahead. Um, you know, it’s business basics for sure. Yeah. Okay. I just want to.
Because I know some people are listening to this. I know I’ve interviewed some people on the show that could benefit from, I won’t mention any names, but I know that they could benefit. And I get it because that’s the one thing about adventure travel is there’s a lot of different things involved and a lot of the people that go into this business maybe are really strong in one area. But mostly it’s small businesses. These are not big hotel chains that can figure out how to…
how to do all these things. And, and so having somebody like yourself that, that actually does that here on the show for everybody to listen to, I want to make sure we’re given, bringing some value to, to anybody. Um, and I guess on that, that same regard, I mean,
Why we’ve covered a bunch of things and yeah, I think I want to, um, I’m just curious, what are the, cause you do a lot of just consulting. We were just consulting really anybody that’s listening. Um, what are, do you have two or three other things that are maybe not so obvious to some of these, especially international operators that, um, just right off the bat that you’re willing to share with them, things you’ve seen repeatedly when you visited lodges or, um, worked with operators.
Yeah, I mean, part of my business, I do have an arm of my business where I go in and help manage lodges. So I help to manage the Pinoy, which is a really famous Atlantic salmon lodge in Russia, and then El Pescador, which is a competitor to where you were down in Belize. No, I’m Ali. I’ll be interviewing them on the show as well. They’re fabulous. Yeah, they’re a wonderful crew. So I do quite a bit beyond the photography on just the ops side with lodges as well and helping them position.
Jason Elkins (38:06.934)
And in the past few years, I’ve found myself being brought into new fisheries that existing programs are looking at opening up new water. So basically adding to their programs and they need someone to come in who understands the US market. They can help me or I can help them understand positioning like who and where do they need to market in the US and then actually just go in and assess the water, like spend a week fishing water and say, hey, is it terrible fishing? Is it not worth opening this up to guess?
Or is it epic and worthwhile? And I imagine an additional benefit. I’m curious if that’s how you do it. But like if, if I was a lodge owner wanting to open up a new river for my clients and I wanted to bring somebody in to assess it, I would think it would be beneficial to if that person also was able to take good photos and write a story about it. Yeah. And that’s, that’s actually, thank you for saying that. So I wanted to go next is, uh, most destinations I try and visit, I try and get at least one editorial feature on as well.
And so, you know, the lodge gets the rights to the photos for full commercial use marketing, whatever that’s part of our negotiation. But I asked to maintain editorial rights, which means I can then write a story, send those photos to a magazine and basically get the lodge or the destination some advertising. And that also helps me cover my costs, you know, full transparency. Editorial pays pennies. It’s not as much as people think, but it does pay a little bit. So that often will like cover my.
my tips. I always tip guides, even if I’m working, I’ve been a guide, I know they work their rear ends off. So like, I’m that person who will always tip the guide no matter what. So usually the editorial is honestly my tip money. But it’s worked out really well. I have a couple programs that I visited in like Q3, Q4 of last year, where we were able to get really good editorial placements in non endemic and non phishing magazines. And these are our higher end programs.
more expensive. And so for them, that’s a target audience. I was able to help them identify of like, the fishing world knows who you are, right? They’ve seen this, they’ve seen you on Instagram, they want to go but it’s a small market. How can you reach outside that to sportsmen or just adventure travelers who would want to come do your thing? And for them, that’s a huge benefit that really costs them nothing extra. That’s part of me just being there is I enjoy the editorial side. Like I said, that pays for my tip money for the guys.
Jason Elkins (40:32.814)
And it’s basically free advertising and a target publication for them. Yeah. That sounds like a win-win on many, many different levels. Um, I’m curious about, yeah, I want to, I’m curious because I noticed that you’re also a drone pilot. Yes. Yeah. And I know a little bit about that and I’m, I just want to, I want to hear more about that, um, was it something that you needed to go through the process of getting, you know, your FAA?
certification. What did, what did that look like? Was that beneficial use of your time and energy? I don’t know. I’m just curious about it. It was. Yeah. I was a, to be honest, a very late drone adapter. I think I got mine in 2018 because I see people abuse them enough and do dumb things. Drones just pissed me off. I was, I’m still don’t like drones and I avoid flying mine over groups people at all times. Cause it’s annoying. The last thing you want to be doing is fishing out with buddies and hear this like my friend calls them a big angry mosquito.
coming here and hovering above you, they’re annoying. And people again, do very dumb things with them. It’s been awesome for me for the business because before that, if we needed aerial shots, I had to have the conversation with the client of, okay, you’re hiring a helicopter for a day. Which early on I did many times. We, at one point I was on a shoot in the South Pacific and we had to hire a helicopter to basically island hop out to our island. And it was a big budget commercial shoot. And so they were like, yeah, we don’t like it. It’s a big line item, but we need the shots.
And if I had a little drone to pop up, you know, obviously drone photos, they’re getting pretty good. They’re still not the quality of I would say from a helicopter, but they’re pretty good. And it’s been really good going through the FAA process was not bad. Like I was always an academic kid, I test pretty well. So just tested through and I have to re-cert every two years, which is pretty painless. The piece of advice I’d give to anyone, you know, travelers or operators traveling with
Drone laws are changing constantly internationally. I have seen a lot of drones get confiscated coming into Belize in the past few years as I’ve worked on there. Technically they’re not allowed and if you get caught brain years in, they will grab it and hold it until you pick it up on your way out of the country. Just be cautious, be smart with your drone and always there’s so many good websites and resources of like, can I bring my drone into this country? So just be smart with drones because not a lot of people are.
Jason Elkins (43:00.21)
Yeah. No, I, you know, I think we’ve seen that both in news articles. And if you’re out and about very often, you just get to see it in, in person, you know, some, sometimes what’s your favorite part of your business right now? Your work, your life, just what’s, what’s your favorite thing going on right now? That’s a hard question. I I’m finally to the point in my career and I’m very grateful for this 15 years in, I can pick and choose my clients.
Um, fairly aggressively when I was early on, I mean, I shot a few weddings. It took, it took, I think three weddings for me to be like, never again. I say that I’m shooting a fishing guide friends wedding this summer, which will be great. Um, cause he’s different. He’s been a guy who I’ve known for 10 years and lets me stick my camera in his face every time we’re fishing. So that’s different. Um, but I think right now where I’m at in the business is I am able to kind of sit down and really work with those international clients who I enjoy and who have become friends.
and helping them scout these new waters. That’s something just in the past year, I’ve been able to get more in front of the camera. I’m always notorious for being behind the camera. My editors hate it because they need like a photo of me in the field running with an article and I have a headshot that’s 10 years old. You know, I have no photos of me doing the thing and this past fall I was able to get on a couple of these kind of assessment fishing shoots and actually get…
fish and the guides are so excited to have a photographer. They’re like, well, you caught this nice fish. Can I get a picture of you with it? And so we did photo lessons on the river of like, you know, here’s how they can work with their clients. I love teaching guides when they ask for it. I’m always happy to be like, here’s how you can get better photos. Here’s how you can. Can make your client happy getting a good photo of them in the field. Because that often results in better tips for them. If they hand their client, you know, a couple of killer fish hero shots.
That client might give them a bit more money at the end of the trip. Oh, I know. I can, I can see that completely. You know, I, I was, I’m curious. Have you gone the route of doing any sort of online video courses, freebies, take better fish pictures type of thing. Do you have, you know, something on YouTube that we should mention? So our listeners can go take a look or what do you know? I appreciate it. I have a lot of people ask for it right now. I’m limited to like in-person teaching.
Jason Elkins (45:19.198)
And I actually do a fair bit of that. I teach a lot at fishing clubs. Um, lodges are starting to hire me to come in and teach their staff how to take photos, which is great. Um, but no, I, I had a call Monday with a friend who was like, you have to do this and, and charge, you know, charge like five bucks per video class or something and make that into another part of the business, which I think I will get to eventually. But I’ve got a, my next six months are like passport step after passport step. And I just heard you say that you’re.
thing that you’re happiest with this year in a place where you can pick and choose and do the things that you like the most. So I was just, I was just curious if it was out there and you wanted to promote it. Yeah. No, thank you. Yeah. Um, because I, I agree with you. I think that makes a huge difference. You know, I, I’m not a photographer like you are, but even just knowing a few things about angles and distance can make a huge difference in somebody’s experience.
They’re much more likely to go home and put their photos on Instagram if they’ve got photos that make them look good. Yeah, it’s really cool. This actually had a class on Sunday and it was oversold, overbooked, which to me was exciting. People are excited about the subject matter. And several of the students don’t fish there. It was at a fly fishing trade show. So it was kind of a fishing audience, but it was several people who came in and said, my friend or my partner fishes. And I go along with my camera and want to learn how to take better photos.
And that was kind of interesting for me of like, all right, it’s not always about the hero shot for Instagram. It’s people who want a different way of enjoying their time on the water. Well, and it’s yeah, and it’s a lot of the concepts are the same whether it’s fishing or not. I mean, you can take a kayaking guide and teach him how to take better photos of his clients on the water. You could take a balloon pilot and you know, because that’s I had a balloon ride business for many years and take, you know, I did a lot of proposal flights.
Nice. So basically I was a wedding proposal photographer, not a wedding photographer, but you’re the only one in the basket with them when this is happening. You better take at least one good shot of the engagement. So I think there’s a lot of value in that. So, and also maybe just a good idea for, like I’m happy that we mentioned it because anybody listening to this that might hire you to do something.
Jason Elkins (47:39.606)
that might be part of what they want to negotiate in because, you know, and one of the best things with my balloon ride businesses, I would take photos of every group, good photos of every group, and then I would upload those photos to a special page. My, my reservation system would send out an automated email three days later saying here’s a link to your page. I love that. To see the photos so they could go there, see the photos, share the photos, copy the do whatever they wanted to do with the photos. And, and that was and then
right at the bottom of the page where all their photos are, there’s a TripAdvisor link. Oh, perfect. You get them excited and remembering how good it was. I just look at all these amazing photos. I took a view and put up on this page for you to access them. Wasn’t that fun? And oh, hey, while you’re here, please go over to TripAdvisor and write a review. And I was getting, you know, and I’m sharing this because anybody that’s listening, I want, again, this is all about bringing value
conversation. And, you know, I was getting 60, 70% of people would click through and write a five star review on trip advisor. And this was for a half day trip. It’s not, you didn’t spend a week with me. You spent three or four hours with me. I hope they were three or four great hours. Right. Um, but typically with day trips, it’s a little harder to get reviews like that. So anyway, so I’m planning, I’m just sharing that idea with anybody and it’s since it’s photography related. Oh, it’s a great idea. Somebody to, I don’t know. Um,
Photos get people excited because they remember all those moments of like, Oh yeah, even though I’m jet lagged or tired, wasn’t that fun? And it’s brilliant to tie that to your trip advisor review. I like that. And even if it’s like a picture of, you know, somebody climbing, you know, Kilimanjaro and they’re just, it’s kicking their butt and they’re, they’ve got blisters on their feet and you take a picture of somebody sitting there dealing with their blisters on the way up Kilimanjaro. At some point, that photo is going to be a lot of, have a lot of meaning to them and their families. And
So it was great. I’m happy we did this. I’m curious, Jess, what did I forget to ask you? What should have I, oh wait, one more, I know why. Yeah, go for it. What’s your least favorite part of where you are, either in your business or the work that you’re doing? Because I can’t ask what’s the best without asking what’s the least favorite. I think, and I always try and keep it very real on like mainstream stories, because people always come up and like, oh you.
Jason Elkins (50:05.246)
I’m sure you’ve had this, you travel for a living, how awesome, it must be amazing. And it’s like, no, I’ve had more weird tropical illnesses over the years than you ever wanna learn about. You know, there’s a side to this. I slept on three airport floors in December, just being stuck places. So it’s never as glamorous as it looks, which I think is, it keeps it interesting, right? If it was perfect all the time, it would be boring. And just running a business. Like it’s, I spent this morning invoicing and chasing down people who…
who still have outstanding invoices. And I think a lot of the people who, you know, who run lodges and businesses listening to this can appreciate, it looks really glamorous online and the day to day is it’s still work. It’s still a grind. And there’s always that pressure of because, OK, yeah, you’re at an exotic destination, scouting river, but you’re still working. You still got to you want your client to feel like you’ve delivered what they were expecting. And sometimes that can just managing expectations can be challenging.
Totally. And often on location. I mean, I, at one point this fall, I was in Iceland on a great shoot, dealing with a client that was heading to Bolivia next. I was going to be home for like a day, go to Bolivia, and then dealing with two shoots after that logistics. So there’s always this balance of like, okay, if I need to get a visa processed, while I happen to be in Iceland on a great river, instead of sleeping at night or going to the bar with friends, I’m sitting there typing emails. So it is still, um, I mean my average workweeks,
70 to 80 hours. I don’t have, there is no personal life at this point. And I’m okay with that right now. I’m sure I won’t be at some point, but it is. So what will you, what is the future? Cause sometimes when somebody’s working 70, 80 hours and they say, you know, I’m at the point where I can work with who I want to work with, you know, sometimes the next step is leveraging yourself. Right. Is that in your history, in your, not your history, in your future? Do you see someone else coming in and maybe doing some of this invoicing and
Not really, to be honest. I think if I was smart, yes, but I’m like I said earlier, I’m very type A and I like being in control of my business. And I’m still learning. I’m still learning different ways to kind of run the business side of things, which I enjoy. At some point, if I get bored with that, maybe, but while I’m still learning and improving, I think I’ll keep doing it. Okay. Let’s set aside the next question. Let’s set aside your fishing gear. Maybe it’s, yeah, let’s set aside fishing gear. Sure.
Jason Elkins (52:32.298)
And your photography gear. Okay. What is the one thing that’s always in your luggage that you have learned is important, not the, you know, not toothbrush. You know what I mean? We all figure that out pretty early on, but like through all of your travels, what have you realized? Oh man, I really need to have this. This has made my life so much better when I travel. Can I give two things? Is that allowed? Yeah. Okay. First off is like a little, a battery bank for my phone.
It’s because I travel alone. I always need that phone to be able to check into flights or look at maps. So how, so it’s a battery pack charger. Exactly. Yeah. Having like a little plugin battery and it’s thin and small. Mophie is the brand I’ve got. I have, I’m sure you have. Yeah. Probably with an arms reach here. Yeah. I got one. Okay. Yep. They’re amazing. The Mophies are great. And then electrolytes as boring as that is, I love.
I use several different brands, but just having electrolytes with me, I have fun that really helps with jet lag, really staying hydrated and electrolytes. And then I often end up on shoots. So is that something you just dump into a bottle of water? Yeah, it’s, um, they make different like tabs. I use one called element, which is like in its little stick pack and you just dump it into water. Um, but I’ve had, like when we were in Bolivia, it was 115 every day and you’re on the Amazon, it’s 115 and you’re, we were walking 14 or 16 miles a day, so you can imagine the fluid loss there.
Um, and being able to do a couple of packs of electrolytes today, like I view myself as part of my gear. If I’m not able to take that photo, it’s not worth me being there. So I need to stay healthy on the job. Yeah. Um, and those are two good ones. That’s really good. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much. So now I’m back to where I was a moment ago. I was going to say, is there anything I forgot to ask you?
So is there anything I forgot to ask you? Anything you think I should have asked you or anything you want to wrap up with to make sure our listeners hear it before we, before we go? No, thanks, Jason. I really appreciate it. I would say just for the, the two operators, the lodges listening, um, when you’re talking to photographers, just be sure they understand your, your specialty and what you really want to showcase at your lodge, because every lodge or operation has something unique to them. And I see a lot of photographers show up to places kind of with a shot list and just
Jason Elkins (54:52.51)
automatically run through it and really miss the soul. You know, those quiet moments we were talking about earlier where you’re sitting around the fire with your friends having fun. That for a photographer, it can be kind of frustrating to shoot because like it’s at the end of the day, you’re tired. You just want to like put the camera down and have a break. But if you have someone who can sit and still enjoy themselves, still be part of it, but capture those moments, those are the moments your guests really want to see.
Yeah, they want to see them because they want to experience them. They want to imagine themselves in that, having that experience. So that’s a, that’s a great, great tip and great way to wrap up the conversation. Jess, thank you so much. I’ve, I’ve been watching you for a few years now since, at least since I was at Orvis and I’m just really impressed by the, the name you’ve made for yourself and the quality of the work that you do. And.
is so proud to have you on my show. Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. It’s fun, fun conversation. I really appreciate it. And we’ll have to do it again. Absolutely. And our paths will cross and we’ll work on some stuff in the future. So thanks Jess, appreciate you being here. Thanks Jason.
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