Guest Bio
Julian Carnall is the Founder and Managing Director of Large Minority, an adventure travel company specializing in unique and immersive experiences. Born and raised in Kenya, Julian developed a passion for exploration from a young age, leading him to establish Large Minority in 2009. The company offers unconventional adventures, such as tuk-tuk challenges in Sri Lanka, Cambodia, Italy, and Pakistan, as well as sailing expeditions in the Philippines and Amazon jungle explorations in Colombia. Julian’s vision focuses on creating life-changing journeys that challenge participants both mentally and physically, fostering cultural immersion and responsible travel practices.
Show Summary
In this episode, Julian Carnall shares his journey from growing up in Kenya to founding Large Minority. He discusses the inspiration behind creating unconventional travel experiences that push boundaries and promote cultural immersion. Julian delves into the challenges of organizing adventures in remote locations and the importance of responsible tourism. Listeners will gain insight into how Large Minority’s unique trips, such as tuk-tuk challenges and sailing expeditions, offer participants a chance to engage deeply with local communities and environments.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Innovative Adventure Concepts – Creating unique travel experiences like tuk-tuk challenges and sailing expeditions.
- ✓ Cultural Immersion – Emphasizing deep engagement with local communities and traditions.
- ✓ Responsible Tourism – Implementing sustainable practices to minimize environmental impact.
- ✓ Personal Growth – Encouraging participants to challenge themselves mentally and physically.
- ✓ Global Exploration – Offering adventures across diverse destinations worldwide.
What You’ll Find on Large Minority’s Platform
- ✓ Featured Adventures – Tuk-tuk challenges in Sri Lanka, Cambodia, Italy, and Pakistan.
- ✓ Sailing Expeditions – Navigating the pristine islands of the Philippines on traditional vessels.
- ✓ Amazon Jungle Exploration – Immersive journeys through Colombia’s Amazon rainforest.
- ✓ Private Journeys – Customized adventures tailored for private groups and events.
- ✓ Responsible Travel Initiatives – Commitment to giving back to the communities visited.
👉 Visit Large Minority’s Official Website to explore their offerings and learn more about Julian Carnall’s contributions to adventure travel.
Learn more about Large Minority, Ltd and connect with Julian at:
https://www.largeminority.travel/
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Jason Elkins (03:59.375)
Welcome everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. Super excited today. My guest today has got something going on. It’s really, really interesting. It’s intrigued me. We’ve got Julian Carnall. He is the co -founder of Large Minority. They do kind of, I’m going to let him explain it a little bit, but it’s, it’s Tuk Tuk tours combined with some competitive elements and some really, really cool stuff. So Julian, welcome to the show. So happy to have you here.
Julian Carnall (04:28.054)
Thanks for having me, Jason. Yeah, real pleasure. I’ll jump. I will go on. Sorry. I will jump in and help you with the intro on the tuk -tuk side of things quickly. Yeah, we do tuk -tuk adventures around, well, say around the world in South Asia, South, a bit of Central America, Europe now, Italy. So people probably wondering what the hell is a tuk -tuk adventure? Well, we would give you a tuk -tuk. You would.
Jason Elkins (04:30.479)
Yeah, that’s very cool. And we’re speaking.
Julian Carnall (04:57.42)
drive it around that country as the platform for adventure, we would provide you with a bit of good support. And that’s it in a nutshell. So tuk -tuk adventures, yeah, large minority.
Jason Elkins (05:10.671)
I love that you jumped in to correct me because as I was listening to you, not so much correct me, but as I was listening to you, I realized I introduced it as tuk tuk tours and that’s really something different, right? So anybody that’s traveled around to some of these places may be familiar with the idea of a tuk tuk tour. If you’re in Thailand, you can get a tuk tuk tour, but this is really something different. So I love that you added the word adventure to that.
Julian Carnall (05:33.64)
Yeah, people can get a bit precious. I mean, especially we know in the adventure space, you know, people can have a different preconception of tours in particular. We tend to try and avoid it only because we also know what that can mean exactly how you’ve mentioned it. So we try and avoid that. However, you know, there are some key ingredients. There’s a group of people that join together. So, you know, we’re not overly precious over that terminology.
Jason Elkins (06:03.919)
Well, I appreciate that. And we’re going to get back to that because I think that’s super fascinating. Um, and before we jump into that, I really want, you know, myself and our listeners to kind of get to know you a little bit, Julian. So tell us a little bit about your story and where did we can go back as far as you want to go, wherever you think it was relevant in your childhood to, to help kind of shape the journey that you’ve been on and how did you get from where you were to where you are now?
Julian Carnall (06:28.78)
Sure, yeah. I mean, I started, I was born and brought up in Kenya, East Africa. Had an amazing childhood, very lucky to grow up in such a beautiful country and lived in some really fairly remote areas in that time between Kenya and Tanzania. And I, from the very, because it was quite remote, early days was traveling for school, traveling abroad from the very early days. And I got that.
like a travel, definitely a travel bug from, I’d say living in Kenya and growing up there. And then it was reflected in my first kind of industry job. It was travel related, working for a big airline, working in the Middle East, but definitely not my calling. You know, far more corporate focus. And I was always far more interested in getting off the beaten path.
Getting into the bush is one of my favorite things still today. And somehow a bit of serendipity, I guess, tuk -tuks fell into my life. I was traveling myself around Sri Lanka at the time. This is going back 15 years. And anybody who’s probably been in contact with a tuk -tuk will probably have a tuk -tuk related story. Definitely the case for me. I borrowed someone’s tuk -tuk.
in the middle of central Sri Lanka somewhere. We borrowed the tuk tuk for a few days and then thought, wow, this is a great way to travel. This is the best way to travel. Might be a little bit biased, but had such a great time. And that was really when my co -founder at the time, who happens to be Colombian as well, I think you’re in Colombia. We thought it would be a great idea to get a bunch of people together and do this as a trip. And that’s how it all started.
So yeah, I mean, I can carry on talking all the way through, but that was the introduction to travel, my introduction to travel. Started very early, still have the bug. I still love going to airports and visiting new places. And the first time you get there, that kind of, you know, that culture shock that everybody gets, yeah, it’s what it’s all about.
Jason Elkins (08:46.799)
Yeah, very cool. I’m curious, what was your family doing in Kenya?
Julian Carnall (08:54.796)
So my obviously British origin, my parents, my mother was born in Kenya as well. So this is left over from that, obviously the British colonial history where there was a bunch of British people working in Kenya, living in Kenya. And then when independence happened, you know, a bunch left and a bunch stayed.
my parents, my grandparents were on the side that stayed to make just a normal living. They were just, there’s two kinds of the, the families or the colonial occupation that was in Kenya at the time. There was kind of the aristocrat side that had lots of land. And then there was just the workers who just were making a living and was very much of the second.
side of that where my grandfather was just working as a, I think he was a mechanic at the time. And that’s why my mother was born there. And then, yeah, I was born there. I met my dad in Kenya and I was born there too.
Jason Elkins (10:05.295)
And okay, your dad, your dad was born in Kenya.
Julian Carnall (10:09.662)
My dad was born in England. He moved to Kenya and met my mother when he was about 22, I believe. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (10:11.631)
He was okay.
Jason Elkins (10:18.799)
Right, very cool. And the reason I ask is I’m just kind of interested in how parents, kind of their histories and their mindset about exploration and going to different places. So like your dad to pick up and move to Kenya, what drew him to Kenya? And just curious.
Julian Carnall (10:40.14)
My father’s passed away now. My mother will know better. I never really got to know the full reasoning why he left. I knew he was deeply unhappy from a very working class area of middle England. He was from Sheffield, a very industrial part of England. And I knew that he always hated it. I mean, that was the story that we’d always spoken about, that he hated the weather, he hated. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (11:04.911)
Okay. Yeah, I was just, I was just curious because sometimes people that pick up and leave their country and go to another place and, and then their offspring tend to travel and tend to go explore and, and all that type of thing. So I was just wondering if there was a connection.
Julian Carnall (11:15.02)
Yeah, yeah, it’s quite, it’s it’s quite, yeah, it’s quite, it’s quite, quite common, I agree. But no, my dad, he just, he loved, he loved Kenya from, from the moment he set foot there and never, never came back to England. So.
Jason Elkins (11:23.341)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (11:29.935)
Yeah, well that that happens. I get that I’m I’m traveling myself. I’m in Columbia right now. I I’m not. I’ll probably step foot back in the US at some point, but you know it’s there’s there’s special places in the world and it’s fun to explore and find them. So for OK, so for those of our listeners that are still you know, got to this point and they’re still kind of trying to figure out what is it took took? How do you describe a took took on a podcast where we can’t show them?
Julian Carnall (11:56.812)
I like to think of it as a hybrid between a two -wheeled motorbike and a car, a four -wheeled car. So it’s three -wheeled. Think of it as a protected motorbike with three wheels. You’ve got open side doors. You still have the handlebars of a motorbike. And you still have…
Well, you have a horsepower of about a lawnmower, so we’re not talking a huge amount of power. And I also feel like I need to differentiate between that there’s generally two types of tuk tuks that exist. There’s the tuk, the type where you might close your eyes and take yourself back to Bangkok, where there’s, you know, there’s the bang, there’s the uniquely Thai tuk tuks, which are slightly different to what I’m explaining. They’re a lot larger horsepower.
They’re a lot bigger vehicles. The ones that I’m talking about here really are the more traditional Indian versions, also called auto rickshaw. A lot of people get a bit finicky when you say tuk -tuk because Sri Lanka, the locals refer to them as tuk -tuks, but in India, they’re very much like auto or rickshaw or auto rickshaw. So, yeah, the nuances of tuk -tuk names.
But in short, it’s not a very fast or powerful vehicle. It’s a very good utility vehicle. So the access is amazing. You can go over all sorts of terrain, surprisingly. You can go up and down narrow streets. And yeah, it’s a really great utility vehicle as well. Surprisingly, people will probably be motorbikers or bikers will be rolling their eyeballs right now thinking, nah.
Jason Elkins (13:51.087)
You
Julian Carnall (13:51.66)
I prefer the speed, but it does get you access to different kind of places, which is why we love them.
Jason Elkins (14:00.111)
And presumably I’ve been in enough of them. It looks incredibly easy to drive. Are there any challenges at all to learning to drive them?
Julian Carnall (14:09.644)
There’s a little bit of a… Yeah, there’s a knack of getting used to it initially. I mean, if you’ve driven motorbikes in the past, it’s very easy because you’re used to the… You know, they’re not automatic in general. So you do have a gear system where you’d be much more familiar if you’ve driven motorbikes. The difference is the gears are on the handlebar. So you’ve got a foot pedal with the brake, you’ve got the gears on the left with the clutch on the handlebar and you’ve got the accelerator on the right.
So that, if you’ve never driven one before and certainly not a bike, if you’ve never driven a bike, it will take you, you know, an hour to get used to that mental gymnastics of working out how to change the gears and probably involve a bunch of gear grinding as you learn the ropes. But that’s part of the fun, you know, that’s part of the fun.
Jason Elkins (15:02.351)
Yeah, I’m actually visualizing you out there with a group of your clients that just show up and maybe mostly new clients. I don’t know. And they all get there and there’s got to be, I’m sure you have like the first half day as a instructional. I’m, I’m just imagining all of these. I’m going to say the word tourists, but your guests in this, um, in this setting, maybe in Sri Lanka or Columbia or whatever. And you know, driving around grinding gears and some of the locals are just maybe rolling their eyes.
Julian Carnall (15:27.692)
That is exactly the case. That is exactly the case. The locals having a massive entertainment session as they watch a bunch of tourists trying to destroy their vehicle and get to grips with changing the gears. The best look is on their faces, especially the ones that do little research, which is totally acceptable. And they kind of arrive and they realize, shit, what have I signed up for here? I’m actually going to have to drive this thing myself. And then that moment.
Jason Elkins (15:34.191)
You
Julian Carnall (15:57.804)
realization like what have I done what have I maybe signed up for here and then they yeah they get over that within within an hour sometimes a bit longer but yeah you know it is funny it’s a funny picture.
Jason Elkins (16:05.871)
Yeah.
I can imagine the first time you and I spoke, I’d mentioned to you that here in Columbia, at one point I saw some tuk tuks and I thought, man, I would just love to just get one of those and just like drive it all around South America. And, you know, there’s just, I only have like one, one suitcase. Everything I own fits inside a one bag. And I’m like, okay, that can go in the backseat really easy. You know, put a little tent and a sleeping bag in there and just go for it. And.
And you’d mentioned that you’ve got a guy that you know that’s kind of doing something like that. And I’m sure you’ve done an awful lot of exploring. So tell us a little bit more about that.
Julian Carnall (16:43.852)
Yeah, exactly that. It is great way to do that. And you’d be amazed at the access that these kind of vehicles give you just because you become very approachable all of a sudden when you’re in a vehicle that they’re familiar with. And also, it’s a quirky, fun vehicle, right? So the barriers that you break down instantaneous as you drive into a village that people are like, what the hell is this guy doing? Why is he here in the tuk -tuk?
And yeah, you mentioned, he’s gonna kill me because I can’t remember his name, but I had a good chat to him a couple of months ago. He’s driving from the southernmost point in South America, Argentina. And he’s, I think he’s on the way all the way up to Alaska. He’s currently halfway through Chile, maybe. He’s traveling with his beautiful dog, a Doberman. I think it’s a beautiful, so his companion.
Jason Elkins (17:33.551)
Yeah.
Julian Carnall (17:39.564)
And he’s just making adventures pretty much every second of the day, right? He’s going all sorts of remote terrain. The locals are getting him in. He’s getting invited left, right, and center, but just having an amazing, amazing time.
Jason Elkins (17:54.639)
I can imagine the difference like you’ve mentioned just you’re approachable. It’s an interesting thing that you’re doing because or that he’s doing and that you’ve done is in your journeys because the contrast is that the typical person doing the route from North America down through South America all the way to the trip of you know, Tiro Del Fuego or as far south as you can go in Argentina is writing some big you know, BMW cross thing with
Julian Carnall (18:20.588)
GS1100 or…
Jason Elkins (18:24.303)
with all the leathers on and the fancy helmet and the boots. And you can imagine the people that live along that route that just see that day in and day out. And then some guy that looks like me or you shows up driving a tuk -tuk with some bumper stickers on it probably. And I can imagine that, yeah, that’s a different thing. Yeah.
Julian Carnall (18:28.428)
Closed helmets. Yeah.
Julian Carnall (18:36.588)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Julian Carnall (18:47.02)
That’s exactly it. That’s exactly it. And while I love driving, you know, I ride motorbikes as well and I love that, but it’s just, it’s very like, I like to really make it clear how really different the experience is because of the access. Not only the speed, you know, those bikes that we’re talking about there, you’re going to be cruising through towns at like, you know, or certainly between towns, you’re going to be moving at some pace.
Whereas with these tuk tuks, they don’t really go over 50, 60 kilometers an hour downhill with the wind behind you. But uphill, you’re almost in reverse, right? So you just take it.
Jason Elkins (19:24.451)
Yeah, I can imagine some spots especially in extreme South America where it’s really windy. You know in hilly I can imagine. Okay, I think we’re gonna take the day off and yeah.
Julian Carnall (19:37.612)
Well, so we did a trip to Pakistan, which is one of our most recent trips last summer. And it was it was an exploratory trip from our side. So we only invited a few, you know, a few of like we opened it to a few invitation. And we were traveling from the route goes from Islamabad to up the Karakoram Highway to the China Pakistan border right in the north.
So Himalayas. And that border post, I think it’s the highest border in the world, if I’m not mistaken. It’s about 4 ,800 meters. And we were going to be, well, we were the first kind of tuk -tuk group to go up there. And I had put full disclosure to everybody there. Like, I have no idea whether we’re going to make it. Like, because the altitude of these tuk -tuks, you know, and we were going up, you know,
we want to probably about total ascent of, you know, Islamabad is less than a thousand meters, I think. So, you know, three and a half thousand meters up the Karakoram Highway. And people were looking at, you know, at the bottom, you know, the towns kind of close to the bottom saying, where are going? What are you doing? And we’re like, yeah, well, we’re going to the China border, but we don’t know if we’re going to get there. And, you know, obviously, you can see the look on the locals thinking, Jesus, what are these guys doing? Right.
But it was amazing. It was fantastic. And every village, every town, the people were just loving it, like supporting us. And the photos and the selfies that you only get in South Asia is just incredible. And then we made it. So the short story is we made it. We didn’t have a single breakdown. I think one broke a clutch cable or something. But everybody made it. And it was fantastic. It was such a good trip. We’re going to do it again.
Jason Elkins (21:34.479)
I’m imagining like the differences between that experience that you created and enjoyed compared to, you know, a tour bus or a group of motorcycles or what? Yeah, it’s a totally different experience because like you described, people are like, where are you going? What are you doing? And the selfies and the connection that you create there, I’m almost in. I mean, yeah, it’s pretty cool. I can kind of visualize that.
Julian Carnall (22:01.26)
Yeah, just the stopping, you know, you stop at every, you’ll get stopped by, you know, every town or village and they’ll welcome you in. And then because it’s open, because the doors are open, you’re exposed to the same, like, you know, motorbikes, the smells, the taste of basically everything. The main difference is just that speed you’re passing through. It’s really a bit where if you see something, you’re like, and you’re not wearing a helmet, you’re not wearing a helmet. No, no.
Jason Elkins (22:23.247)
And you’re not wearing a helmet typically, right? So no doors, no helmet. Yeah, you’re actually more open to the culture, the elements, in a sense, than you are on some of those larger motorcycles. It sounds like. Yeah. Yeah. OK. That’s pretty cool. Do you? This is I just love this. I think it’s fascinating way to travel. And I’m pretty stoked to do it myself now.
Julian Carnall (22:38.22)
Yeah exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah.
Jason Elkins (22:51.759)
couple things. One is have you ever you or your groups ever had any issues with law enforcement thinking you stole these to toks because you guys don’t look like you should be driving to toks. Does that happen?
Julian Carnall (23:04.492)
No, no, no, you we said, so just for reference, we we we actually so we borrow them. The agreement is like a borrowing almost like we borrow them. We borrow them. We pay we rent from local owners. So they tend to be that’s their business. So they’re either like delivery or taxi drivers in general. Some of them, it’s their it’s their family vehicle. And now they’ll they’ll rent it to us for a duration.
And I mean, God knows what goes on in the law enforcement head when they see us, but it tends to be a big smile and then like, oh, well, maybe I should check your papers just in case. Then there’s a couple of questions about why are you doing this? And then it’s like, okay, see you later. But in general, it’s kind of have a smile and a selfie and then we’re off, as long as you’re not driving like a lunatic.
Jason Elkins (23:53.871)
Okay, because they probably don’t have a lot of issues with tourists coming in and stealing tuk tuks. So it’s not something that they’re on the lookout for per se. It’s more of a curiosity, right? Okay. And.
Julian Carnall (24:01.484)
Yeah, yeah, no, no. Yeah, yeah. Some of the more like seasoned like coppers will maybe be depending on where which country where you are might be, you know, wanting to see registration documents or whatever. But in general, we get we get left alone as long as as long as we’re not racing down the highway or something.
Jason Elkins (24:25.551)
Right. And I know that this probably varies by country, but I guess I’m curious, do your guests typically need to bring along any sort of motorcycle, international driver’s license with a motorcycle endorsement, or is it just, how does that typically work? Is there a?
Julian Carnall (24:44.044)
So one of the beauties of the tuk -tuk is that actually in the countries we operate anyway, there’s only requirement to have an international driving permit with a bit, yeah, it’s a low horsepower and they only require a Cadillac B like car endorsement. Sri Lanka in particular doesn’t even, they have their own licensing system now. So you don’t even need an international driving permit. You just need your local.
Jason Elkins (24:55.695)
because the horsepower is so low.
Julian Carnall (25:13.836)
driving license and then the AA will authorize an independent rank and permit. But in most of the other destinations, you just need an international driving permit if you’re not from that country. I mean, we do, for example, do some trips in Italy now, obviously contrast, you know, Pakistan to Italy, but they’re in slightly different tuk tuks. And there, for example, you just need a
Jason Elkins (25:19.887)
OK.
Julian Carnall (25:40.166)
a European license or an American license, driving license, it’s valid and that works.
Jason Elkins (25:46.223)
Okay, very cool. And if you, and again, this is going to vary by country, but in general, if you just showed up in some place, you, because you’ve got the experience and the knowledge, but if someone were going to show up someplace and wanted to rent a tuk -tuk or get their hands on a tuk -tuk or…
whatever, I mean, what general advice would you give to them? Let’s say, let’s pick a country, I guess, Columbia, Sri Lanka, wherever. I mean, I’m sure it varies, but like, is that something that a person could realistically just go somewhere and start asking around and get their hands on a tuk -tuk?
Julian Carnall (26:20.14)
I would say, yeah, definitely. I mean, that’s how we started, right? I mean, that’s exactly how I started, was convincing a guy to lend me his tuk -tuk. And he worked out what would be a fair deal. So I would say 100 % that’s possible. And anywhere these tuk and then now, tuk -tuk’s are all over Africa, all over, you’re in Colombia, they’re all over Colombia, they’re all over Central America. And it’s growing.
Jason Elkins (26:23.407)
Yeah.
Julian Carnall (26:46.828)
India is still making more tuk tuks every year and exporting them to these places. So there’ll be more of them and you’ll definitely be able to negotiate with the local. A few bits of hard currency and he’s going to give you his tuk tuk. He doesn’t love it that much. He’ll give it to you. There’s even some of the real rich, like say,
Jason Elkins (27:05.775)
Oh, man. That’s so cool.
Julian Carnall (27:15.884)
It’s the tuk -tuk culture, the local vehicle culture where Sri Lanka definitely has some of it. Philippines has a lot of it where they really love that. Like they’ll do up their vehicles. They’ll put speakers in. They’ll put, you know, some real kind of pimp level, you know, in interior where they, you know, beautiful works of art really that they might be slightly more reluctant to give give your average gringo a tuk -tuk for the day.
but in general you’ll always find some.
Jason Elkins (27:45.583)
Yeah, there were a few that I saw in Guatemala that were pretty decked out. And I was like, yeah, I’m sure that they take a lot of pride in it. But other than that, I mean, I see what you’re talking about. Yeah, that’s cool.
Julian Carnall (27:59.436)
Yeah, we’re in the process of actually just setting something up in Nicaragua at the moment. And we’re going through that exact process of finding owners who are willing to part with the tuk -tuks, that negotiation stage of like, OK, what are you going to do? So it’s fun. It’s fun. And normally the next stage is, you know, they’ll realize that, you know, oh, so foreigners are going to drive it as well.
Maybe I should put the price up. So it’s…
Jason Elkins (28:27.459)
Do you wait, you discuss that with them after you negotiate the deal?
Julian Carnall (28:33.616)
We don’t fully say that… No comment. Yeah, yeah.
Jason Elkins (28:42.607)
Let’s change the subject. Let’s change the subject. This is a good time to go a different direction. OK, that all, there’s so many fascinating things. We’re going to move into the type of person. Well, actually, it’s not just about the took dooks here. I mean, that’s an interesting platform that you use. But my understanding, based on our last conversation and some research I’ve done, is you’re doing some other things that are kind of really different that.
could be done on motorcycles or whatever, but the tuk tuks are a great platform. So tell us about the other part, the other, you know, what else, what’s the other part of the business that makes it unique from your perspective?
Julian Carnall (29:21.548)
Yeah, well, so from our side, we’ve always been very passionate about like the day. I mean, we call it like the responsible tourism angle that we were very passionate about, where it’s more of just supporting the destination that we’re visiting and traveling and promoting that, you know, that other people come and visit it as as as, you know, just as travelers and putting that destination like front and center and a way that we saw.
was very beneficial and powerful to do that was adding an element that we call challenges on these events because we’re trying to get people to not only visit, you know, a lot like really dig deep in the destination by, you know, traveling in that way, but then also learning more about the placing, the places they visit, like learning more about the culture, learning more about the food, learning more about the people, not just on the surface, on the surface. And one of the best ways that we found to do that was
You know, humans, we are naturally a little bit competitive, all of us. I mean, it’s in our DNA. And you might not say that you’re competitive, but if I put you in a group, you know, and I say, you know, you’re going to compete, you will. You may not go deep dive, but, you know, there’s always going to be an element of competition that’s interesting. And so we set up these things called challenges. They normally have a theme. We have like four kind of core themes, which is like food, language.
food language culture and then responsible travel which would which could normally is on the social layer really so like getting involved in some community projects and those we will set teams challenges each day not not not like a huge amount but just enough to to get them to you know to taste that destination so as an example normally on the first day of most of our trips we’ll do some sort of exotic food food challenge which will
basically encourage them, not only to say, you know, it’s perfectly fine to eat the food here because you might be nervous, but also try something pretty, you know, really exotic that you wouldn’t, you know, you wouldn’t necessarily find. And that’s just an example that gets people to then realize on the first day that that’s perfectly possible and that I can go and find this and it’s fine to eat. And yeah, so that’s an extra element that we do. It’s totally optional.
Julian Carnall (31:51.562)
We have it as a challenge set each day. You can participate in this if you want to. You can get points and overall you may get some fun, I mean some pretty good winnings actually. But in general it’s done in a way to really just to learn about the destination and feel like you’ve really visited it instead of just being on a tour bus or being a passerby.
Jason Elkins (32:18.927)
Sounds very cool. Does the typical, so let’s say, well, what’s the typical group size? Is it like a dozen?
Julian Carnall (32:24.94)
So, yeah, I would say closer to just under 20. So depending on the trip, I mean, for example, you know, Italy, we’ve at the moment got like eight tuk -tuks. So you’re looking at maximum of 16. And bear in mind, we, we, on our trips, and I’m just talking about our trips, I’ll mention some other tuk -tuk adventures that exist that we know very well and we love. They’re slightly different formats. On our trips, you know,
Jason Elkins (32:32.471)
Okay.
Julian Carnall (32:54.956)
we would say it’s a group, but you’re only really together when you’re in the morning at an accommodation point, sharing a meal. And then in the day, you’re completely free to go anywhere you like. We give a suggested route, but there’s no form of like follow a group leader or follow like a train or a convoy. You’re completely independent in the day. And then you would catch up as a group again in the evening.
where you would then share those stories or catch up from the stories of the day really.
Jason Elkins (33:31.375)
Yeah. So it’s like a mix kind of between solo travel and group travel with all the elements and, and having those, those challenges. I love the challenges because I mean, I do a lot of solo travel and sometimes I’ll just pick out a challenge for myself because I know I’ll have a different result.
Julian Carnall (33:35.276)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (33:49.551)
I’ll just, you know, sometimes I’ll just go on a map and find a weird place on a weird road. And I’ll just like, I’m going there. I don’t know how I’m going to get there. And it’s figuring out how to get there is a lot part of the fun. And it sounds like you guys are going a lot of that as well. It may even sounds very similar. I think I’d love it.
Julian Carnall (34:02.924)
Yeah, it is. We tailor them specifically to the destinations. And I’ll give you another example, Sri Lanka, for example. I there’s some of the, I mean, I would say after all my travels Sri Lanka is one of the friendliest people I’ve ever met in my life. And, you know, I’ve traveled to a lot of places.
Jason Elkins (34:16.303)
I’m sure the ones I haven’t been, but the ones I’ve met in other places. Wow. Yeah. Three people.
Julian Carnall (34:21.484)
Yeah, and we do a challenge there that’s called the Rice and Curry Challenge. So Rice and Curry, anybody that’s been to Sri Lanka will know Rice and Curry is just the Sri Lankan staple. It’s what every Sri Lankan 99 % will eat for lunch every day of the year. And it normally involves one giant pile of rice and then five or six different curries, vegetable normally.
and then topped with either like a piece of fish or a piece of chicken on the top. That’s rice and curry. We set a challenge to participants where we would give them a list of ingredients in Singhalese, which is the area we’re normally in the South, Sri Lanka’s Tamil and Singhalese, but this is normally in the South that we are. And with a budget of something like a thousand rupees, which is probably…
I don’t know, $8 now or something. And they will have to find that ingredients themselves in the market, buy it. They then have to take that ingredients to a local family. And they would have to, friendly enough, invite themselves for lunch to join a family for lunch with these ingredients. Now, if you, you probably got people listening thinking, Jesus, if I do that in my country, I’m either going to get, well, I don’t know.
you know, something’s going to happen and I’m not going to be too welcome. I can assure you that every single person who’s ever done it in Sri Lanka has had the best experience, one of the best experiences of their lives because they’re welcomed into this family and they’ve got a pile of rice and some fish and some vegetables and they say, hey, let’s cook this. And these guys, the Sri Lankan family loves it. They’re like, you know, they’re so happy to show the culture, the food. Some of them…
You see the videos and interactions of that and they don’t even speak English. The other guys obviously don’t speak a word of Singalese, but there’s still that connection where they’re just showing them how to cook, to grind, to grate the coconut. It’s brilliant. Anybody that’s done one of our trips will all have a story related to that because it’s a great way to, a magical way to interact.
Jason Elkins (36:44.175)
Yeah, that sounds so much better than some of the ways people are traveling. What kind of person is attracted? Man, I have so many questions. I guess what kind of person is attracted? Do they generally come as singles or will you get some couples or groups or families that will come do this? I mean, obviously it’s hard. You’ve got probably one person per duke, duke, but how does that look?
Julian Carnall (37:05.836)
Wee.
Julian Carnall (37:10.54)
Yeah, we normally, so we encourage and the way that our collateral and the way that we position ourselves, we encourage people to join as a team. It doesn’t make for great marketing for ourselves. We’re aware of that because it’s quite hard to, you need to sell two tickets instead of one, essentially. But that does make it easier because you’re sharing your room, you’re sharing the driving because the driving can be quite challenging.
Jason Elkins (37:32.013)
Mm -hmm.
Julian Carnall (37:39.532)
some longer distances. So to answer your question there, it tends to be a team of two. You can also do a team of three. And then the kinds of people, I mean, we get kind of two clear cross different types of groups. We get people who have either had kids and they’ve left and then and they’ve got plenty of time and they’re now just traveling around the world and they love a different kind of adventure.
Jason Elkins (37:47.629)
Okay.
Julian Carnall (38:09.324)
that’s one. And then we’ve got the other kind of maybe slightly younger, but, you know, working that maybe has a little bit less time on their hands, but wants a really action packed adventure, does not want to just go and sit on the beach, wants to, you know, just have a really good adventure. Those are the kinds that a lot of mother, you know, mother daughter teams, father son teams, you’ll get a family, you know, a family with grown up kids, then the parents would be one and the
kids will be in the other and they’ll compete against each other, which is really funny. You know, we obviously get, you know, couples and then groups of friends. So real cross -section. I mean, we’ve had, you know, an 80 year old participant driving a tuk -tuk the whole way around Sri Lanka. And we’ve had, you know, families that come, you know, with kind of young teenagers that are happy to join. And then that group dynamic is so much fun when you have such a different…
difference of people from all over the world. And we’ve been lucky enough that we’ve always had participants from quite global. So it’s not just a bunch of Brits cruising around Sri Lanka. We have South Africans, British, Americans, Australians. It tends to be English speaking countries just because we’ve always started with English as a company.
But then we’re starting to see more Scandinavians, Europeans, other Asian countries, Singapore, Hong Kong. So real mix, real mix. And it’s great. It makes for a great group dynamic.
Jason Elkins (39:48.271)
Very cool. From the time you first borrowed that tuk -tuk in Sri Lanka that you’d mentioned to the point where you started selling adventures, tuk -tuk adventures, how much time was in there? I’m trying to get a feel for you developing the business. What did that look like? How long did that take? How long you’ve been doing that?
Julian Carnall (40:09.708)
So I came up with the idea probably in 2006 and I thought I was the first person to have the idea. And I was like, oh, here we go, bingo. Because I’d driven the tuk -tuk and I was like, oh, let’s do this. And I was like, oh, but it’s going to be unique. Turns out just like most ideas, it’s not. And someone has thought of it before you. And there was. And they’re still running.
There’s a company in India that I joined the trip for as for me, it was like a R &D trip to go and discover what this would be like. And I drove. So I drove from Chennai across to Bombay, Mumbai, which is two and a half, about 2200 kilometers. Had obviously an amazing time. It was a really tough trip. It was the middle of the monsoon season. So we got, you know,
Jason Elkins (40:48.077)
Mm -hmm.
Julian Carnall (41:09.164)
up in the gats, the western gats, we got seriously bamboozled with some rain like I’ve never seen in my life. But of course, the adventure of a lifetime. And I was a young, kind of, you know, innocent kind of 22 year old or I can’t even remember how old I was then. But, you know, it was driving anybody that’s been to India, you know, that’s enough to slap you in the face, right? A good Indian adventure.
And then it was 2009 when so I was then building it probably with my co -founder 2008. We had it as a part. We had both full time jobs. This was it was initially as a side gig, a side hustle and a bit of fun. But we had a great network from art from we were living in the Middle East at the time in 2007, living in Dubai. We had a really good network and we.
we managed to pull together like 30 teams in our first one. And I mean, the first adventure, I mean, I can’t even probably say too much about it without someone suing me, but it was chaotic, but it was really fun. At that time, again, very naively, I’d set it up as a race. We’d set it up as a race. So if you can imagine a kind of Formula One -esque starting line where we had five tuk -tuks in a row.
and then like a flag off and a countdown and we had about three accidents before they’d even left the gate. And it, yeah, that was very different to how they run now. We learned very quickly speed and competitive speed doesn’t fly. So we stopped that. But that was the timeline, roughly.
Jason Elkins (42:59.479)
All right, that’s that was one of the questions I was going to ask you is like, what are the big lessons you learn along the way? And that that sounds like a big one. Right, right there. Yeah, I can can imagine that. Anything else that knowing what you know now, so anybody that’s listening to this, you know, is maybe excited to get into tourism, thinking about a tourism business. I’m sure they’re not thinking about a business. We’re not going to coach them on how to start a tuk tuk adventure business, but.
Julian Carnall (43:07.244)
That was one of the big ones, yeah.
Jason Elkins (43:29.039)
I guess the question is, anybody listening to this thinking about going into business, what advice would you give them knowing what you know now?
Julian Carnall (43:37.132)
That’s a really tough question.
Julian Carnall (43:44.276)
Yeah, you’ve caught me off guard a little bit here. I think what I would say is really have a very good idea of what your product is, what your offering is going to be and how you’re going to be really different from other people in the market. And ask as many people about that to validate that as well, to maybe validate that that’s…
you know, that is why you’re different, that it is unique because, you know, there’s so many and I’ve seen especially obviously COVID is a terrible example because, you know, it wasn’t their fault that they went under. But, you know, even COVID aside, the amount of travel businesses that, you know, when you go to a show or where, you know, other travel businesses present themselves, that sometimes the product offering is just so similar.
And especially in some of the big markets where you know that all of them are using the same operators in the end country. And so it’s a marketing spin and whoever’s got the most amount of marketing capital will convince you to go with them. So I think that would be a long -winded way of saying really, really make sure that you’re working with, that you know what you’re offering is different.
And I’m a big fan of this, of going direct myself to the destinations. I guess it’s a little bit ironic that I try and get people to come to me to take them to those destinations. But when it’s myself, I’m definitely a big fan of people going to locally owned and locally operated places in country myself.
Jason Elkins (45:34.031)
Okay. Yeah. Great. No, I think that was, I don’t think you said I caught you off guard, but wow, what a great response. So thank you for, thank you for sharing that. That’s very cool. Is there anything about this business that, well, what do you like most about it? What do you like most about what you’ve created? Um, in general, and that can be anything.
Julian Carnall (45:57.996)
I sometimes forget, have been in it and doing it so long, forget how cool the trips really are. And again, it might sound a bit biased or maybe even a bit arrogant, but like when I speak to people, past participants or clients of mine, when they talk about the trips, the experience they have and how they talk about it to other people, when I’m more like a fly on the wall, to hear the genuine…
excitement and passion that they kind of give from that experience is really the best. There’s nothing better than knowing that validation of that trip that you created or you’ve conceptualized is a winner. That’s probably the most rewarding for sure because when it comes from someone else, yeah, it’s great.
Jason Elkins (46:51.919)
Yeah, no, I get it. I’m sitting here smiling pretty big ear to ear. I mean, I just love that I can I can resonate with that. Yeah. What’s the part that you dislike? I’m just going to say dislike or what’s the yeah, what’s the part of this business that maybe you wouldn’t tell everybody running around and chatting about it, but we’re here in a podcast. So what’s the part that you really don’t care for?
Julian Carnall (47:16.044)
When you’re running your own business and you’re at quite a small scale, if you’re running it properly, there’s a lot of stuff that is really, really dull behind the scenes that has to be done. And you know.
That’s obviously one of the, that’s probably an easy, you know, an easy answer. It’s obvious that nobody really likes to do a bunch of tax work or admin work. That’s obvious. And you could, in most times, pay someone to do that. I think what’s sometimes frustrating is knowing, almost like alluding to the first part of what I really like is sometimes not being able to convince or to capture.
the people that you, a larger audience that you believe should be coming on your trips because you’ve had the validation from one side and the frustration of not being able to really communicate how good that is through the tools that you have. That’s frustrating for sure sometimes. I don’t think I’ve, yeah, anyway.
Jason Elkins (48:28.015)
No. That’s a good point. When you’re excited about your product and what you’re offering, because I don’t necessarily like the word product, but that’s what I’m going to use right now. When you’re excited about your product, you’re excited about the experience that you’ve created with and for other people. And then you just get excited. You’re like, I want to share this. This is amazing. I want to change more lives. I want to impact more people. I want to impact more communities, both the people that are traveling to those communities.
people live in those communities. So yeah, that’s some, I get that. So what, do you have any big exciting announcements or big plans for this? We’re recording this in early 2024. Curious if you have any big exciting plans for anything upcoming. You mentioned Italy, is something you’re, and then Pakistan.
Julian Carnall (49:18.54)
Yeah, we, so Italy, Italy is a fairly new, yeah, I mean, there’s a, there’s a few, I’m really excited about, we’re just about to, it’s not even official, we haven’t really announced anything yet. We, we, we’re in the beginning stages of doing something in Nicaragua, Tuk Tuk based. I, I’m excited because I haven’t been there yet, but I’ve got, you know, a really great team kind of working.
working that out and it looks fantastic. And I’m just really excited to go myself. It’s one of the best parts of these things is that would be that first trip and then meeting a bunch of new people and new destination. Like I said, you know, new country is always really exciting. And then Italy, while it’s very different from our other destinations, you know, we normally tend to be, you know, just a little bit more tropical. And then Italy.
is just a little bit different, but it’s also really cool and it’s quite a new product. A bit of a story on Italy because we launched it as kind of a COVID pivot. We didn’t know what was happening. We were trying to work out which destinations we might be able to operate in sooner rather than later. And because of our geographic location to the UK, we thought somewhere in Europe would be…
quicker to open than the long haul destinations, especially from some of our source market. And we then did some digging about tuk tuks in Italy. Turns out there’s an incredible history with tuk tuks in Italy. And I think, if I’m not mistaken, Italy actually created the tuk tuk. The Italians created the tuk tuk because, and not many people know this, but the Italians were the one that it was between, it’s not quite.
Jason Elkins (50:46.959)
Mm -hmm.
Jason Elkins (51:00.431)
Hmm.
Julian Carnall (51:14.752)
whether it was the Japanese or the Italians that first created the first tuk -tuk, but in most cases it seemed to be agreement that the Italians did it in the, just like at the end of the Second World War. And they were using it in a lot of the, you know, a lot of the small medieval towns to get the, mainly the harvest and the rice, sorry, well, a bit of rice in some areas, but mainly the…
farming equipment and stuff through the medieval towns because all of the narrow streets and the tuk -tuk was perfect for that. So we found that history there with Italy and then turns out they have these tuk -tuks called, we use the Ape Calesino, so Piaggio is the brand and then Calesino. And as with most things Italian, they’re just a little bit sexier than most other places.
Jason Elkins (51:48.559)
Okay.
Julian Carnall (52:07.83)
They’ve got like a cabriolet so it’s got a, you know, it’s got a, you can put the roof down and it’s just Italian, which is great.
Jason Elkins (52:15.727)
Do you think you’ll attract a different, a slightly different crowd clientele for that trip? Yeah.
Julian Carnall (52:21.452)
We’ve definitely noticed a slightly different crowd for that, which we’re totally happy with. It’s just a little bit of a softer adventure just because of what you’re experiencing. The beautiful vineyards of Barolo and Lake Como and all of that kind of stuff is a slight different from some of the South Asian stuff.
Jason Elkins (52:34.351)
Mm -hmm.
Jason Elkins (52:45.167)
And when you set a challenge of go eat something exotic in Italy is a little different than something exotic in Sri Lanka or Columbia or, yeah.
Julian Carnall (52:52.62)
Well, you say that, but there’s some pretty exotic meats in Italy. They do like their offer. And cheeses, very good cheeses. Yeah, very good. And actually, some of their, you know, most Italian wine is fantastic, really, but you do get some proper vinegar in some areas. Like, you kind of get, you get given a glass, you know, glass of rosé that’s made by a local area, and some of it is…
Jason Elkins (52:58.319)
That’s true. Or some cheeses. There’s some cheeses there that I’ve heard of.
Julian Carnall (53:21.204)
undrinkable. But it’s, yeah, it’s surprising, but it’s funny. Most of it is delicious.
Jason Elkins (53:22.511)
Oh, really? Cool. I do want to touch on, yeah, I do want to touch on Pakistan real quick before we wrap up, because I think that that’s an area that a lot of people have some story. Well, I don’t know if I want to say stories around. There’s there’s things going on in the world. But when you described your trip to Pakistan and what you guys were doing, it sounded very, very cool, very, very interesting, something I’d like to go see. But what?
What can you share with listeners about Pakistan right now or just your thoughts in general about visiting places that sometimes have things going on?
Julian Carnall (54:04.012)
Yeah, I mean, I do have some like my thoughts on that is, I mean, Pakistan is a prime example of, you know, they’ve they’ve deeply suffered from the post 9 -11 kind of axis of evil modeling that was positioned in a lot of that part of the world. And there’s no doubt that there’s areas of Pakistan that nobody would be sensible to visit.
But there’s a large part of Pakistan that is totally fine to visit. And I think that I would imagine most of your listeners would be very aware of that. Do some proper research, speak to some people that are on the ground. Just don’t read the front pages of mainstream media is the short answer. Really, really dig deep to what’s going on in the ground. And Pakistan is a prime example of that. I mean…
I was speaking to some old hoteliers and old people in the industry up in the Hunza Valley, which is a valley up the Karakorum Highway. And these are guys that are veterans, old hotel owners and stuff. And they would talk about the kind of glory days. And this was obviously all pre -911, the Axis of Evil, kind of so to speak, where that whole area was, it used to be seen as…
you know, it was part of the hippie trail almost that most people would, a lot of Europeans would spend the summer down in, would spend the summer up in that area and then they would all travel down to Goa and India for the winter. And it was, tourism was booming. You know, it was, that whole area was always really, really popular. I’m talking about the areas that we visit and that’s the areas that I can talk about because, you know, I’ve been there firsthand.
But yeah, to answer your question, we wouldn’t, if there was a genuine threat to our part, if we thought there was a threat to safety for participants, we wouldn’t take people there. So, people, it is, we obviously, we’re aware of the reputation it has because we get those questions. Is it safe? Should we go there?
Jason Elkins (56:23.151)
And do you feel like that’s, is that a big challenge for you? I mean, obviously it’s a challenge to overcome kind of the perception and thoughts and ideas that people have, but do you already have a trip scheduled back to Pakistan?
Julian Carnall (56:39.084)
Yeah, we do. We have one in September. We’ve got about six or seven teams signed up. So we know that there’s a bit of uncertainty right as we speak because they’re having elections. A lot of times elections is a bit of an unstable period. But so we’re hoping that things are totally fine. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (56:41.719)
Thanks.
Okay.
Jason Elkins (57:02.959)
Yeah, but it sounds like you’re making, you’ve got some momentum going, you’ve got some people signed up. Um, and I wanted to bring it up because hopefully some of our listeners, I mean, I. That’s like, I’d love to go to Pakistan and I don’t know much about it. So most of what I know is what I hear. Honestly. And, um, but I also realized that what I hear is not always spot on. So a trip like this sounds like a pretty cool way to go, um, to go see it.
Julian Carnall (57:08.044)
Yeah, and we’re very honest.
Julian Carnall (57:31.564)
Yeah, it is. It is. It is. And yeah, especially the area that we go to. I mean, again, I might be a bit biased, but it is one of the most beautiful. I had been to northern India, so north, right in the far northeast of India, like Ladakh and like on the Kashmir border side. And I’d done a motorbike trip up there. And that was obviously spectacular.
Jason Elkins (57:32.687)
Yeah.
Julian Carnall (58:01.132)
because the Himalayas are spectacular and you’ve got the 8 ,000 meter peaks and things. It’s just wild and rugged and amazing. But then when you go up the Pakistan side, there’s just, the scenery is unreal. Again, because of the level of seven and a half, 8 ,000 meter peaks in the short area, in a short distance from each other, the dramatic scenery is just…
unbelievable and depending on the time of year, you know, the orchard, the kind of cherry orchards and the apricot orchard, the fruit, it’s just incredible. I mean, it really is.
Jason Elkins (58:45.359)
It’s interesting listening to you describe it. And of course, I’ve got the benefit of being able to see your face because we’re doing this video as well. And I’m sitting here listening to you. I’m thinking, man, I wonder if Julian knows how freaking cool these trips are that he’s talking about. And does he have to remind himself sometimes? It’s like, holy, holy shit. This is really cool because you’re so in it. I know you know it’s cool, but somebody else like,
Okay, tuk -tuk, Pakistan, Himalayas, China border, whatever, all this stuff that you’re talking about is like really freaking cool. And do you sometimes have to like remind yourself of that or is it just like you just live that like, yeah, this is really cool stuff all the time.
Julian Carnall (59:35.82)
Yeah, I don’t. Obviously, you’ve reminded me and I can get carried away sometimes. Yeah, there’s definitely times when I’m talking about and I kind of go back to those moments and like live those. But they’re only because they’re just so genuine, as in the places they just it’s such it’s it’s such a good experience to be there. And like like I was just saying that that area, they are you just kind of there’s this place just it’s I think it’s called Sost, which is the the
Jason Elkins (59:41.615)
You
Julian Carnall (01:00:04.844)
last border town before you go up to the China border because you can’t actually cross the China border unless you’ve got all sorts of paperwork and stuff. And you’ve got about I think it’s about a 400 meter buffer zone where you can’t really get to the border, but like most borders, I guess. But there was there was a small like hotel we were staying in. They had it was an orchard full of cherry, like cherry trees. And I mean, they were full of cherries. And I was like, not only did I not know there, I had no idea there was cherries.
Jason Elkins (01:00:12.719)
I’m sure, yeah. That’s, yeah.
Julian Carnall (01:00:34.284)
this area, but you would just pick apricots and cherries while looking at like a 7 ,000, 8 ,000 meter peak in front of you. It’s just amazing. It was just amazing. It’s really good.
Jason Elkins (01:00:35.375)
Mm -hmm.
Jason Elkins (01:00:46.511)
It just, it sounds surreal. Just listening to you describe it sounds surreal. So, um, very cool. Julian, we’ve had quite a conversation. A lot of stuff. I feel like we can continue forever. And I’m curious, are there any, anything that I forgot to ask, should have asked or anything else you want to make sure that our listeners are aware of either about you, the world in general, Pakistan, tuk tuks, anything, anything else we should cover before we wrap up?
Julian Carnall (01:01:12.268)
I don’t think so. I think we’ve had a great, great… No, I think we’ve had a… It’s been great speaking to you. You’ve brought out a lot of things that I haven’t even really thought about too much recently. Getting bogged down in more boring stuff. So it’s been great. Yeah, I mean, I would just say to people, the next time you see a tuk -tuk, have a go. Convince someone to…
to lend it to you or you know, get in the back, get in the front, you know, normally you’ll get a very good response. Yeah, more tuk -tuk love.
Jason Elkins (01:01:51.801)
I’m going to do it. I’m in Columbia. They’re around here. Not in Medellin too much, but I’m going to be out in the hills and I’m going to do it. And I love that. So very cool. Julian, thank you so much. Appreciate you joining me for this conversation and sharing a little bit about your world and helping everybody make this big world feel just a bit smaller. So thank you so much for joining us.
Julian Carnall (01:02:14.636)
My pleasure, Jason. Thanks for having me.
Jason Elkins (01:02:17.615)
Thank you.
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