Guest Bio
Justin Wateridge is the Managing Director of Steppes Travel, a specialist tour operator known for designing immersive, tailor-made journeys around the world. With decades of experience in the travel industry, including previous leadership as Managing Director of Abercrombie & Kent UK, Justin brings a deep understanding of both luxury travel and meaningful exploration.
Raised in Zambia and educated at Oxford, Justin’s passion for travel was shaped early through exposure to diverse cultures, landscapes, and wildlife. Over the course of his career, he has visited more than 150 countries, working as a tour leader, expedition guide, and pioneer of exploratory journeys. His experiences range from tracking wildlife in remote regions to leading ambitious overland expeditions, all of which continue to influence his perspective on travel today.
Justin is a strong advocate for travel as a force for connection and understanding. He believes that meaningful travel experiences foster empathy, challenge assumptions, and create lasting personal impact. In addition to his work in the field, he has spoken at venues such as the Royal Geographical Society and contributed written insights on global travel. He lives in the Cotswolds with his family and continues to pursue adventurous challenges, often in support of charitable causes.
Show Summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Justin about a life shaped by global exploration and a career dedicated to meaningful travel. From his early years growing up in Zambia to leading expeditions across Asia and Africa, Justin shares how his experiences in the field ultimately led him to a leadership role at Steppes Travel.
The conversation explores how travel has evolved over the past few decades, from navigating the world without modern technology to today’s increasingly connected experience. Justin reflects on the value of human connection in travel, emphasizing the importance of local guides, cultural understanding, and stepping beyond curated itineraries to truly experience a destination.
Justin also offers insight into how Steppes Travel approaches trip design, focusing on personalization, deep expertise, and creating journeys that go beyond surface-level tourism. Throughout the episode, he reinforces a central belief: that travel has the power to break down barriers, broaden perspectives, and bring people closer together in meaningful ways.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Travel experiences are most impactful when they foster genuine human connection
- ✓ Exploring destinations beyond the typical tourist path leads to deeper understanding
- ✓ Local guides play a critical role in shaping meaningful travel experiences
- ✓ Technology has made travel easier, but can sometimes limit authentic discovery
- ✓ Travel can challenge assumptions and reduce cultural biases
- ✓ Personal growth often comes from stepping into unfamiliar environments
- ✓ Well-designed trips balance structure with opportunities for spontaneous discovery
- ✓ Early travel experiences can shape lifelong passions and career paths
- ✓ Conservation and responsible tourism can be integrated into travel planning
- ✓ Shared experiences enhance the emotional impact of travel
What You’ll Find on Steppes Travel
- Tailor-made journeys to over 90 destinations worldwide
- Expert-led expeditions with specialists in history, wildlife, and culture
- Conservation-focused travel experiences that support global initiatives
- Deep destination expertise from experienced travel consultants
- Unique and pioneering itineraries in lesser-traveled regions
- Personalized service designed around each traveler’s interests
Learn more about Steppes Travel and connect with Justin at:
https://www.steppestravel.com/
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Jason Elkins (00:00.95)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. So excited to have each and every one of you back here today and also very excited to have a wonderful guest. We’ve got Justin Wateridge. Justin is the managing director for Steps Travel. Justin, welcome to the show. Good to have you here.
Justin Wateridge (00:19.236)
Jason, thank you very much for having me here. It’s a pleasure.
Jason Elkins (00:22.442)
It’s gonna be a lot of fun. spoke, it was only a week or two ago and chatted a little bit about kind of what you’re doing in the world and I thought, man, we just need to come back and record the conversation, share it with other people. Justin, we’re definitely gonna dig into your background, childhood traumas, stuff like that, figure out what got you doing this crazy stuff. But before we do that, let’s give our listeners a quick idea of what is, for those that haven’t heard of it, what is steps travel? What are you guys doing?
Justin Wateridge (00:51.822)
So Steps Travel was a specialist tour operator that was founded in 1989. As the Soviet Union was beginning to disintegrate and first went into sort of Mongolia, what are now the Stans, and hence the name was originally Steps East. Then it bought a small safari company, it set up destinations in South America, and discovery initiatives that was travel that supports conservation. And we move on sort of 30 odd years to where we are today.
We’re a specialist tour operator, mainly FIT, so telemed tours. We do do some fixed departures that are expert led. Most of our clients are from either the UK, US, or English speaking Europeans. We take them to 90 destinations around the world and we have a team who really, really know their stuff. Our business is predicated on their expertise and their service.
Jason Elkins (01:43.586)
Very cool. It sounds like you’ve got pretty dialed in on what it is you guys do. That was very concise and great. Thank you so much. Hey, I don’t want to make any assumptions, but I’m kind of guessing where the word steps came from. Let’s go a little deeper into that. What is the actual word steps? What does that mean and how did it get incorporated into the name?
Justin Wateridge (02:04.44)
Well, STEPS refers to the geographical feature that is grasslands, that you get in areas such as Mongolia, also Argentina. And it was originally, as I said, they were setting up pioneering trips going into that region towards the end of the Soviet era.
Jason Elkins (02:20.096)
What inspired that? I’m just, we’re gonna get into the background and stuff like that. I don’t wanna go too deep right now, but it seems like an interesting, okay, the Soviet Union’s falling. Let’s start a business sending people to all these former Soviet bloc places. I don’t know, tell me.
Justin Wateridge (02:38.486)
Yeah, I didn’t set it up. So was set up by a wonderful man called Nick Lane, who’s still our chairman. And yeah, he’s always been a pioneering spirit and had this curiosity that takes you to different parts of the world to explore different areas and peoples.
Jason Elkins (02:56.47)
That is very, very cool. All right, let’s get to learn about you, Justin, because people don’t end up in this business by, well, sometimes they end up in it by accident, but there’s usually kind of a journey along the way. So how far back do we need to go to kind of figure out how you got from where you were to where you are now?
Justin Wateridge (03:15.874)
Wow, that’s a big question. I had the privilege of growing up in Zambia, a wonderful country in Africa, a wonderful childhood there. I came to school in the UK and then I came here while I was here at University at Oxford. And then after that, I worked in London for a bit. I loved London. I probably partied far too hard. But after a few years, I realized that I wasn’t enjoying what I was doing.
Jason Elkins (03:17.491)
I know. Yes.
Justin Wateridge (03:43.726)
and I saw a trip with another company leading trips in China. And in my year off, I’d been there very briefly, that was 1989, and I was fascinated by China then, sort of Mao suits with Derrige, sort of bicycles ruled the road, and it was very different from anything that I’d seen before. And so I did it for six months and I just thought it’d be a cathartic experience to work out what I want to do. I loved it so much. I spent longer with different guides, working with different guides. I met a different cross section of people from sort of professors to
to nurses, to doctors, to whatever. And I ended up leading trips for them for several years in different parts of the world. I then went on to do some of own expeditions. I met my new wife and after a while she said, look, if there’s any future between us, you can’t spend all of time overseas. so I looked for…
Jason Elkins (04:34.969)
I’ve heard that before.
Justin Wateridge (04:37.326)
It was probably the only time I listened to it. And I look for jobs in travel and I’m… Yeah.
Jason Elkins (04:43.042)
Justin, do you mind, can we, we glossed over that I grew up in Zambia thing pretty quickly. I’d really like to dig into that a little bit more. How did your family end up in Zambia? Were you born in Zambia? Tell me more about that.
Justin Wateridge (04:49.633)
Okay.
Justin Wateridge (04:59.214)
So yeah, my father was working in newspapers, he was running the Zambia Daily Mail and yeah, both my brother and I were born there and it was, Zambia at the time in the 70s was, everything was wonderful but at the end of the 70s the copper market crashed and Zambia had all its eggs in that one basket and so during the 80s was a very, very difficult time for Zambia. So it was…
I’ve always loved the people, I’ve always loved the country. My sister’s still there. But yeah, was, and I had the best of both worlds because I was lucky enough to come here to the UK for Education Age 8 and then go back for two holidays a year to Zambia.
Jason Elkins (05:43.349)
okay. Were you parents from Zambia?
Justin Wateridge (05:46.38)
No, my father had grown up in what is now Ethiopia, Eritrea around there, Abyssinia at the time, and in Egypt his father had worked in the colonial office. So he’d always had a love of Africa. And he found work in Zambia in the late 60s.
Jason Elkins (06:07.82)
What about your mom? Where is she from?
Justin Wateridge (06:09.954)
So she’s Scottish and whilst in Zambia she worked for the Wildlife Conservation Society, a US organisation. And again, I suppose one of my introductions into wildlife and love of wildlife was through that and through her.
Jason Elkins (06:25.73)
I’m happy we didn’t skip past that. It sounds like an important part. So all right. So you would go you were going to school in the UK from from what age? You mentioned you come back a couple of holidays. Aged eight. So your parents stayed there and sent you sent. don’t want I don’t want to say it in a negative way. Sent you off. Shipped you off to go to school.
Justin Wateridge (06:27.694)
I
Justin Wateridge (06:38.067)
H-8, H-8, Yeah.
Justin Wateridge (06:47.892)
Yeah, send me to boarding school. It’s probably got a lot to answer for in lots of different ways.
Jason Elkins (06:53.058)
Was that pretty common for families in places like Zambia that could send their kids off for boarding school?
Justin Wateridge (06:57.102)
It would.
Justin Wateridge (07:01.642)
It wasn’t, it wasn’t. There were options in South Africa, but my father deplored apartheid, didn’t agree with it at all, didn’t want to send me there because of the apartheid regime at the time. in in the late seventies, there was a war going on in what was then Rhodesia before it became Zimbabwe in 1980. So again, that wasn’t really an option for me. So there were…
there were no good options, should we say, apart from coming from the UK.
Jason Elkins (07:31.242)
Okay, what do you remember of those years before, I know if you were eight, I’m sure you have some memories of when you actually lived in Zambia. You were going to school with local kids or what was that like?
Justin Wateridge (07:46.284)
Yeah, Right, it was great. loved it. of my best friends, there was a couple of Zambian guys and an Ethiopian guy, Kukidian, I remember him very well as well. So, yeah.
Jason Elkins (07:59.574)
What did you guys, what did you guys do? What is a seven or eight year old or six or seven, eight year old kid living in Zambia do for fun with, with your buddies.
Justin Wateridge (08:09.304)
So you live the weekends and going down to either the Kufu River or one of the parks and stuff like that. it is a destination like that is about the wilderness and it’s about being out in the bush. And it’s that love appreciation of the bush.
Jason Elkins (08:25.266)
and presumably you weren’t going by yourself with your buddies, your family. I mean, it sounds like you just go as a family and hang out in the bush. Did you camp?
Justin Wateridge (08:30.402)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the camping, yeah. So,
Jason Elkins (08:38.37)
All right, what does camping look like in Zambia? Because I’ve been to Zambia. I saw a lot of animals, but I stayed in a, it was a camp, I guess, but it wasn’t camping. Can you like just pitch a tent and sleep on the ground or?
Justin Wateridge (08:54.638)
You can’t pitch a tent anyway and certainly not in the national parks. You’re either on the edge of the parks or you go in for the day on various game drives. So yeah, can’t, where the wildlife are, you can’t really pitch a tent. But there were places down on the Lower Zambisi where you could camp before it was gazetted as a national park. And so yeah, there was wildlife around.
Jason Elkins (09:00.578)
All right.
Jason Elkins (09:17.378)
All right, very cool. Do you remember, obviously you’re interested, it sounds like in the wildlife. If I’d gone back, I don’t know if I could answer this question, but I’m gonna ask you. If I could go back in time and find Justin when he was seven years old and say, Justin, what do you wanna do with your life? What do you wanna be when you grow up? Do you remember, do you have any idea what you woulda said?
Justin Wateridge (09:37.038)
You know, I don’t, I’m afraid. I don’t. And I didn’t expect to work in travel. was something that, as I said, was my six months working with Explore Worldwide just really, yeah, just changed my outlook on different things. I realized…
Jason Elkins (09:39.936)
I don’t think I could either. Probably astronaut or something like that.
Justin Wateridge (09:56.674)
by spending longer in countries, by seeing countries, you just learn so much more rather than through the echo chambers of social media or the news or whatever. And I very much believe that when you travel to places that it does break down barriers, changes stereotypes that we have about different places, your perception, your perspective. And that’s why I’m a big, that’s why I am travel. That’s why I’m a big believer in it.
Jason Elkins (10:20.957)
Yeah, I get it. And that resonates through a lot of the conversations, which is part of why I love doing this podcast is, you know, the people that come on or have been exposed to that stuff. And we’re going to discuss that more. But tell me, were you pissed off when you were eight and they shipped you off to the UK? Yeah.
Justin Wateridge (10:37.292)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially as I had to wear leather shoes, which I probably hadn’t worn before. I’m still wearing shorts. In Zambia, that’s fine. But in the UK, it was a lot colder. And there were colds. I never really had a cold before until I came to the UK.
Jason Elkins (10:54.876)
And the other kids in the boarding school, they mostly kids from the UK? mean, how did you fit in? guess it was like, cause you look like you’re from the UK, but obviously you…
Justin Wateridge (11:05.294)
You kind of have to fit in. It’s sort of it’s, you swim or you sink sort of thing. So yeah, you fit in and yeah, most of the kids were from the UK.
Jason Elkins (11:18.912)
was did you get to the point eventually where you were happy with school and had friends and you weren’t so butt hurt with your parents?
Justin Wateridge (11:27.598)
Yeah, definitely so. sort of, I think it was difficult at first. It was lonely, but yeah, you make friends and I’ve got some very good friends, not necessarily from my prep school, but from where I was secondary school, 13 to 18, I got some very, good friends from there.
Jason Elkins (11:45.868)
Okay, what was your thought process during that time? Were you starting to think about what you wanted to do with your life?
Justin Wateridge (11:53.87)
Yeah, wanted to do something of good. I’d always been interested to save the world. And even after I worked with Explore for a while, did an MSc in development studies in SORAS, which is the School of Oriental and African Studies in London. But I was quite…
put off by some of the bureaucracy behind development and the, yeah, it’s not all that it’s cracked out to be. doesn’t necessarily, the small organizations achieve a lot, but some of the bigger ones, become, it becomes all about them rather than about the people, the area that they’re trying to conserve, preserve, whatever it might be.
Jason Elkins (12:41.792)
Right. At that point in time, did you kind of envision yourself considering to live in the UK or were you having thoughts of going back to Africa to live or.
Justin Wateridge (12:51.939)
I’ve always got thoughts about going back to Africa to live there, but I think my wife and children would not be so happy about it.
Jason Elkins (12:59.766)
Well, you can just send them off to boarding school. Bad joke. all right. So fast forward and what did you studied? What was, I don’t know how the education system works. You took boarding school, prep school, all these things, but what was your first like diving into a particular field of study? When did that happen?
Justin Wateridge (13:23.054)
I studied history at university, so I did three years at university doing history because it’s a good all-around degree, it’s about analytical skills and it enabled me to get to good university and then hopefully a good stepping stone to a career after that.
Jason Elkins (13:25.602)
Okay.
Jason Elkins (13:41.858)
All right, so how did the opportunity to go tell me more about the opportunity to go to China?
Justin Wateridge (13:48.3)
So I just saw an advert looking for tour leaders. And so I applied for the job and had a weekend sort of, well, a series of interviews and was successful. And they said, right, you’re off to China for six months. And I got very excited about it.
Jason Elkins (14:03.084)
But were you intentionally looking for opportunities in tourism or was it literally it just kind of came across your desk? that sounds interesting. What was going on?
Justin Wateridge (14:15.453)
Exactly, it sort came across my desk. It looked really interesting. as I said, I’ve been there very briefly for a few weeks before, in about five, six years previously in 1989. And I was just so fascinated by China that I was just interested in the opportunity to go back there. And I was lucky that I did because it was a time that was changing so fast. I think when I went first in 95, there were a lot of cars.
for the first time in Beijing and Guangzhou, there’s still a lot of bicycles and then you come back a year later and the bicycles have almost gone away. You’d see changes in social mores that in 95 there was no public display of affection between men and women. Men would walk around holding hands, but not men and women. Suddenly you see that change the next year. And so you just saw this society just changing so quickly.
Jason Elkins (15:06.7)
curious about, I think I’d heard that before, but you mentioned men holding hands. What was it about the culture that that that made? What can you tell me about that? I’m just curious about that.
Justin Wateridge (15:20.302)
Well, you see it many cultures. I certainly saw it in Africa a lot as well. Throughout Africa, think it’s not a statement. It’s just a friendship thing rather than one of sexuality in any way.
Jason Elkins (15:30.519)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it’s interesting because then I spent a lot of time in Latin America and it’s very common to see women, know, just friends just walking down the street holding hands or adult women holding their there’s their mother’s hand, which and not because their mother needs the help. It’s just it’s super, super common. But you don’t. But yeah, but it doesn’t mean anything about anything that you know what we might carry around in our heads. So you said you went to China. You said 95 was the first time you went.
Who did I get the dates from? 89.
Justin Wateridge (16:03.182)
So I first went in 1989 and then when I was leading trips it was 95, 96, 97.
Jason Elkins (16:08.32)
Okay, so how old were you in 1989?
Justin Wateridge (16:11.438)
In 89 I was just over 18.
Jason Elkins (16:14.92)
okay. And tell me more about that trip because who’d you go with? Was that a school thing? How did you end up there?
Justin Wateridge (16:23.842)
That’s, I was going out to Australia, to Sydney, to work at a school there that had a link with my school. I had been at the UK and I was what they called in Australia a rent-a-pom. So I was sort of like a very junior teacher. And yeah, and that was a lot of fun. And it sort of went there via Hong Kong and then from Hong Kong went into China for to Guangzhou, Guilin and a few other places in Guizhou.
Jason Elkins (16:40.502)
Okay.
Jason Elkins (16:52.374)
So often times when something like this comes up in a conversation, I always want to ask, well, what did your parents think of you off at 18, spending time in China and stuff, but with your parents, maybe it’s totally different because you weren’t living with them anyway, they sent you off to the UK.
Justin Wateridge (17:08.622)
Exactly that kind of of the you were semi independent already and an offer you go and I think that yeah, there were no mobile phones then so the only form of communication was with going to the post restaurant where you pick up your letter and you and then you send your letter and it was like always the decision when you go to the post restaurant do I do I open it straight away now or do I find a cafe or a bar to sit there and read it and yeah, so it’s
Jason Elkins (17:15.232)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (17:32.322)
Huh?
Justin Wateridge (17:33.326)
But the system worked and we were still in contact with parents, with loved ones, whoever it was when we were travelling. And we still met up with friends. I don’t know how, again, we didn’t have phones.
Jason Elkins (17:43.062)
Yeah, yeah, it’s and a lot changed. You mentioned a lot changed in China, but just a lot changed in the world between 1989 and 1995. Cause I remember I graduated high school. 91. I should remember that 91. And I went off to college and there was this guy.
an older guy talking about, oh, there’s this electronic way of sending mail to each other. And a lot of the universities are using this. And I thought he was crazy. was like, yeah, whatever. That sounds ridiculous. But then within a couple of years, email was a real thing. then I don’t, and even probably around 95 was, mean, were you, do you remember using the internet in 95 when you went back?
Justin Wateridge (18:26.414)
Not really. think it was probably first a little bit later than that. But I still remember in 1999, I did a big trip up the Mekong and the friend I was traveling with, I had to set him up a Hotmail account or whatever account it was so that he could… Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So yeah, you have to find a little computer store, and send off your emails. An internet cafe, exactly that.
Jason Elkins (18:40.926)
AOL probably, right? You remember AOL? Yeah.
Jason Elkins (18:54.28)
Internet cafes. Yeah. Yeah, I remember that. And it was and I had done a little bit of traveling before all that technology and it was it was just it was just different. And it’s almost so easy now. But that’s all another conversation. I mean, you know, everybody’s got this phone and a map in their pocket. And for those of our listeners that are listening and not not watching this, you know, you’re sitting in front of a big map right behind you. And.
I don’t know, I’m just curious. The conversation around maps has come up a lot. Maybe it’s because I bring it up like I’m I’m bringing up right now. Do you did maps play? Was that were you interested in maps? I don’t know. It’s a weird question, but I see you sit in front of a map now. Was that something that you were into when you were young?
Justin Wateridge (19:33.134)
I love maps, I love poring over maps and sort of looking at different things and I think that this last weekend I was in the Faroe Islands and I was in somewhere they had a very old map of the Faroe Islands and it was sort of the depiction of Scotland, of Iceland and Norway, the surrounding area around the Faroes was very very different and so I love them for the history, what they say about different places but there’s nothing quite like
being in somewhere, being in situ to really understand and appreciate the topography, the altitude, whatever it might be.
Jason Elkins (20:09.11)
Yeah, yeah. I wonder if, you know, if we were having this conversation, if our kids were having this conversation 20 years from now, if they’d even talk about maps, if that would even be, you know, something that’s on their radar, because, you know, go ahead.
Justin Wateridge (20:26.446)
We use maps, you mentioned the phone, everything is on the phone. So yes, we follow blindly sort of the Google Maps or whatever maps we use on our phone and take this from A to B.
Again last year I was in the Baltics and I was driving around there and and so Google Maps took me from A B to C to wherever and it was really really easy But then you go to someone like Venice and you can always do the same in Venice Yeah, but that always detracts from being in Venice because half the charm of Venice is is wandering around that little side street or going off beat and or getting lost and then you find those little places rather than just going straight there, so
Jason Elkins (20:57.846)
Yeah, yeah.
Jason Elkins (21:03.464)
I, maybe it says something about people’s personalities, but you know, I travel a lot. I’m in Bogota right now. And when you see people, not necessarily tourists, just local people even, they’re just walking, following a map. You know, they’ve got the phone in their hand. Just follow the little blue line.
And you almost want to ask them like, okay, so when you finally get to your destination, what did you see? They saw a blue line the whole way. And I’m so much more likely to, kind of like, you know, cause I can hold my phone and it kind of points which way I’m facing. And I say, okay, it’s roughly that way. And then I just put my pocket, my phone in my pocket and I just walk roughly that way.
And every intersection I’m like, okay, should I go left or right? I, well, whichever way just looks more interesting is generally the way I’m going to go. And then sometimes, you know, 40 minutes into a 20 minute walk, I realize that, I think I got off course somewhere, but I don’t care. It’s like, you know, so what? There’s all the cool things you see.
Justin Wateridge (22:06.702)
I think that’s exactly right, you have those serendipitous moments, you find things, you discover things, and you’re also seeing it through your eyes rather than through Google’s. think that too many people just…
They also listen to what Google tells them about a site or building or a place and it’s like, no, you should ask a local person about that because he or she will tell you far more or they’ll tell you their own story rather than just the little facts about it. A couple of years ago I was traveling from El Salvador to Nicaragua across the Bay of Honduras and whilst I’ve been in El Salvador I hadn’t seen many other sort of foreign travelers at all. But suddenly when we got to the coast there, there were a load of backpackers and again it took me back 30 years ago about the, you’ve got the cool guy and girl on the guitar playing away.
Jason Elkins (22:31.244)
Yeah.
Justin Wateridge (22:48.976)
the very nervous traveler looking around waiting for why is the ferry not going, etc. And there was an El Salvadoran guy going around and look, I speak good English, I can translate for you. And all the young kids put up their phone and said, no, no, we’ve got Google Translate here. it’s like, really? on. And then when we landed in Nicaragua, the luggage had gone separately. So it was all sitting there on this sort of black volcanic beach. And you get out and you go to your luggage and then there’s a guy from customs.
Jason Elkins (23:03.894)
Yeah, yeah, that’s,
Justin Wateridge (23:18.896)
though, he’s looking through bags. And there was one, this backpacker, I remember she had a rucksack and it full of badges from all other Latin American countries. And he simply goes, where’s Nicaragua? Like this. And she just didn’t understand, she wasn’t reading them. She looked at her phone for the answer on her phone. And I had to say to look, he’s making a joke. Where’s your flag for Nicaragua here? You’ve got to just look at people, read them, understand people, not your phone.
Jason Elkins (23:42.974)
It’s, I mean, if every, if, it’s an interesting thing because I think that the technology has opened the world up to an awful lot of people that may not otherwise go, you know, so maybe the young backpackers, it’s like, hey, I’ve got my phone, I’ve got Translate, I’ve got Maps, and I can go anywhere I want.
but they lean so heavily on that that they miss out on so many opportunities. And I look back at maybe the backpackers or the travelers that were traveling back in the 70s, 80s, 90s even. And you wonder, maybe it was a little harder, but I don’t know. Do you think somebody that was traveling in the 80s is more adventurous than the average traveler now? I shouldn’t ask that, but you know.
Justin Wateridge (24:28.334)
I don’t think more adventurous. think travel is easier now, but doesn’t that my children or other young people aren’t as adventurous. I you can still be adventurous. And I think back then 30 years ago that you go to some village in Laos or something like that and they would all the backpackers would be in one small little restaurant despite the fact there’s lots of restaurants and that’s because that was the restaurant featured in the Lonely Planet. And it’s like, well, you know, there is more to Luang Prabang or wherever we are in than
than what the lonely planet tells us, so.
Jason Elkins (24:59.71)
It’s, there have been many times when I’m off ground looking for something and I think, I could pull out my phone. And then I’m like, wait a minute, why am I going to do that? Like, I know it’s easier to say this because I’ve learned enough Spanish now. I spent a lot of time in Latin America. I’ve learned enough Spanish now. It’s probably easy for me to say, just go ask somebody.
But even then sometimes I think, I’m looking for something I think to pull out my phone. And I’m like, wait, why would I do that? I’ll just ask somebody. Because you have such interesting conversations can just pop up when you just ask them. Like they might not even know what you’re looking for. And they might even send you the wrong direction. But half the time they’ll just say, here, come with me. Let’s go. I’ll show you. And they’ll walk with you for two or three blocks. Not because they’re trying to get money out of you, just because they’re like that.
Justin Wateridge (25:43.128)
But if.
Justin Wateridge (25:47.619)
Yeah, yeah. And you mentioned language. think when I used to travel, I used to learn various phrases, at least of the country that I was going to. And now I’m maybe older, lazier. I don’t know. But I think it’s such a good thing to do is just learn some basic phrases. that the people will welcome you much more warmly as a result. And it’ll open doors for you in different ways. So.
Jason Elkins (26:11.946)
Yeah. And literally just a few words because I, you know, I spent a couple of months in the country of Georgia this, this past year.
And when I got there, was like, yeah, I’m going to learn all these Georgian words. And I think after two months, got three of them worked out. Right. And I realized I don’t really need more than that because it’s enough. It’s just, you know, when you see some Komarjuba or whatever, you know, or I learned some, Russian words, cause most people there do some Russian and it was just enough that they would, well, I don’t know if I’d say they’d smile. They’re not the smileiest group of people, but they would at least try and engage and, and, know, and help.
you out a little bit as opposed to if somebody looks like me just shows up and just starts speaking English expecting everybody to just respond to what I say it’s just a different experience isn’t it?
Justin Wateridge (27:06.124)
Yeah, definitely. I suppose it travels about having that empathy with other people, understanding with other people and trying to create that understanding.
Jason Elkins (27:16.736)
Yeah. So how much Chinese did you learn?
Justin Wateridge (27:20.334)
I could get by. I could get by. But I never learnt it formally. when I was in the big trip at the Mekong, we were cycling. And we were in Yunnan, southwest China.
Jason Elkins (27:22.347)
Yeah?
Justin Wateridge (27:33.614)
And I was asking directions for somewhere and this guy had a local dialect and he probably said the same about me. Yeah, I had a crazy dialect, but I couldn’t really understand what he was saying. And then he said, OK, I’ll write it down for you. But I said to him, but I don’t read. And he looked at me and goes, are you stupid? I said, no, no, I’m just not Chinese and I haven’t learned the kanji. I can’t read.
Jason Elkins (27:55.17)
Yeah, I don’t know what you, mean, I remember it had the little dictionaries, know, the phrase books. So I assume you think, I haven’t even seen one of those in a long time. And I guess why would I? I guess I’ve got that in my pocket already, but yeah.
Justin Wateridge (28:02.658)
Yeah, the phrase books and stuff, yeah.
Justin Wateridge (28:14.222)
But there’s words that you learn, there’s a word in Chinese, er bai wu, which is 250. But if you say it, well, it’s also a slang word for you’re crazy. Like, nǐ shè er bai wu, like this. And you say that, and the Chinese look at you, go, wow. And it’s that you create a reaction like that, or…
Jason Elkins (28:25.083)
you
Justin Wateridge (28:30.83)
The Chinese, if they’re being derogative about Lao-I foreigners like us, they say dàubítsà, which means big nose, and some are bigger than others. But you get dàubítsà shòu zhōng wǒ hǎ, like the Chinese, big nose speaks Chinese and they go, again. Especially in a village in the middle of nowhere as well. That’s where I think it’s to speak Putonghua to Mandarin is, yeah, it’s important.
Jason Elkins (28:39.101)
huh,
Jason Elkins (28:52.734)
And you were leading groups. mean, you were a tour guide there, you know.
Justin Wateridge (28:56.684)
I was a tour leader but I worked with local guides as well. they had the expertise in China and I was more the facilitator making sure that people got from ATV to sea.
Jason Elkins (29:07.884)
Let’s talk about that because yeah, there’s facilities, but there’s probably Chinese people that could do it just fine, get from point A to point B, but what do you see in the value of having like a tour leader that maybe looks like, sounds like, thinks like the guests that are going on the trip? What does that add to a trip?
Justin Wateridge (29:32.943)
I think at the time in China, tourism was still very sort of nascent and there weren’t that many good guides. So it was working with guides to help them.
and also to get them to better understand sort of cultural differences and like you can’t call somebody a twitcher if they like birding and until unless you know them very well or whatever and so there are sometimes there’s cultural differences and it’s sort of yeah and trying to
It wasn’t a difficult place, but it wasn’t an easy place to travel. Traveling was quite hard, on trains. Chinese trains now are just incredible. But then it was still from a communist era. there were normally very large men or women who used to run the restaurant cars. And they were just surly aggressive. there was no customer client service, really.
Jason Elkins (30:29.462)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (30:33.27)
Yeah. I mean, I personally, I see the value of lead a lot of group trips and, and been a tour leader as well. And, it is useful. It’s super, super useful. Cause I’ve run into situations where, okay, this guy, it’s really good at what he does, but he’s got a few things that he does that if you’re not there to kind of explain to your guests, well, yeah, I know he does this weird thing, but, and explain the culture behind it and, and all that stuff. Cause otherwise,
Yeah, it can, it can be a totally different experience with, I don’t want to jump to steps quite yet, but let’s go back. Okay. So steps you said started around 89 as well with the fall Soviet Union and you were a tour leader in China in 95. How long, how long did you stay in China doing that?
Justin Wateridge (31:15.938)
Yeah. Yeah.
Justin Wateridge (31:26.84)
So over the next two or three years I was in China for six months period. wasn’t there the whole year. And then whilst I wasn’t in China, I was in Ethiopia, Eritrea, Kenya, Tanzania, Mali, Pakistan. Yeah, just… Yeah. Sorry.
Jason Elkins (31:41.186)
Leading trips year round then? All right. So how far into that process was it before you realized, yep, tourism is my life. This is what I’m gonna do, travel. Did you figure that out pretty quickly?
Justin Wateridge (31:55.567)
I did, but I also realized that tour leading is great, meet wonderful people, but it’s very difficult to make a living out of it. And so that’s why I did a couple of my own expeditions to try and sort of, I don’t know, just do something a little bit differently within travel. yeah, so one of them was following the Mekong from its mouth in Vietnam to its source in Tibet. So five months traveling the Mekong.
Jason Elkins (32:25.89)
Did you do that kind of on your own or were with clients or what was that?
Justin Wateridge (32:28.014)
on a white spoon.
No, just with one friend.
Jason Elkins (32:33.622)
Wow. What was the, probably a lot of big takeaways. Share a few takeaways of that trip.
Justin Wateridge (32:41.166)
Yeah, think just the… So the… We started in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Cambodia then was still… The Khmer Rouge was still operative in the north around Stengtrang, and it was still a very tense place. And then Laos was only just opening up and then into China. And I think the colonial French had an expression for Indochina, that the Vietnamese grow rice, that the Cambodians…
watch rice grow and the Laotians listen to rice grow. And it’s a wonderful phrase that sort of aptly sums up the layback attitude of Laotians. But it also kind of risks stereotyping the Laotians into just being layback people. And that’s one of the tightrope travel faces. You’ve got to try and understand individuals, peoples, nations, different quirks and sort of idiosyncrasies, but not label them as such.
Jason Elkins (33:37.91)
Right. Did you when you started this journey, did you know you were like, was this a, okay, we’re going from the mouth to the source. It’s a sure thing. Or was it just like, let’s ride up the river for a while and see what happens. And you ended up at the source. How did that work?
Justin Wateridge (33:51.823)
Yeah, we were trying to get to the source, but we always knew that getting into Tibet would be not easy and we did so illegally and we were in Tibet maybe some two weeks until we got put on a bus and shipped out.
Jason Elkins (34:12.532)
Okay, tell me more about that. did they find you? They just arrest you on the street? Like, hey, you don’t look like you belong here. What happened?
Justin Wateridge (34:21.366)
Yeah, because we were two foreigners and we were high on the Tibetan Plateau. can’t even remember, is it Zadoi? Maybe, I think it was. And we’ve been cycling for days, whatever you find somewhere where we can have some food and we’re sat there eating away and then in walks some local big rig officer and he looks at us and goes, you shouldn’t be here really, should you? So.
Jason Elkins (34:45.314)
Hmm, were they nice about it when they took you and put you on the bus?
Justin Wateridge (34:46.158)
They were. They were. They were. But they were, well they were they were strict about it, but they were unpleasant.
Jason Elkins (34:53.175)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (34:58.496)
Yeah, but you actually made it to the source then, or did that get in the way?
Justin Wateridge (35:03.286)
No, and we then we then came back in again and we and we were we were close to the source and at that time again this is for digital things that we had old it was that old actually US Air Force maps of the region and trying to find where we thought the source was and it started snowing very heavily and anyway just it was and our bikes are beginning to fail and so we decided to come back and to pull out so
Jason Elkins (35:07.638)
Ha ha!
Jason Elkins (35:16.61)
Mm-hmm.
Justin Wateridge (35:32.078)
So in a sense the expedition was a failure and it’s a great thing I try and teach my kids and others. It’s okay to fail and it’s not necessarily about getting to that end destination. It’s about what happens on route, the laughs, the friendships, the tears, the whatever.
Jason Elkins (35:45.824)
Yeah. Did you have situations along the way where that were, guess, what you would rank very unpleasant with the people that live there?
Justin Wateridge (35:55.951)
No, not at all. think that in all my travels I’ve always been just very taken by the kindness of strangers, the generosity that you have, the hospitality you have, and I think that’s my overriding thing. I’ve sometimes done talks to schools and I’m often asked a sort of similar-ish question, sort of like, have you ever, anybody ever harmed you? And I said, yeah, I’ve been mugged. And they all sit up and look and I said, yeah, it was in London. bye.
Jason Elkins (36:19.996)
Yeah. Yeah, it’s
I think that people that haven’t had the, and that’s a big part of why I’m doing this podcast. That’s, know, we talk about, let’s, let’s go do things. Let’s get out there. Let’s connect with people. Let’s make this world feel smaller by creating connections. I actually started the podcast when I was in my first trip to Asia. Cause it had always seemed so far away. I traveled a lot, but I hadn’t been to Asia because it seemed so far away. And what I realized was once I got there, it’s a long plane flight, but it wasn’t that far away in a sense. These are just, they’re still people.
You know, obviously culturally very different, but they’re still people. We’re closer than we’re different, I think.
Justin Wateridge (36:55.096)
Yeah, but…
Justin Wateridge (37:01.006)
I think that’s so true. think that it was years ago I was in Sudan, I was on a ferry up in the north and when a man found out that I was British he started, he didn’t get aggressive but he was accosting me about the Iraq war. And I had to explain to him and said, okay, I might have been British but I didn’t vote for the then governments and then I also marched in London against the war and said, don’t judge me because of my government. And I think people around the world are the same. They don’t want to judge you because of their governments. And I think that when we travel,
Jason Elkins (37:14.881)
Mm.
Justin Wateridge (37:30.37)
we realized that despite the differences of either location, religion, dress, geography, what it is, that we want for the same things. That we want stability, that we want education for our kids, that we care about the same things, friends and family, and we laugh about the same things. That laughter is such an important part.
Jason Elkins (37:38.263)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (37:48.32)
Yeah, I was on that trip that I actually was in Asia and I remember I stayed at a hostel in Kuala Lumpur and we were up on the top. They had a big patio thing up on the top of this big building and there were, I was the oldest, know, I’m the older digital nomad, but there’s this group of probably 15 people. Every single one of them was from a different country.
and we’re sitting around in a ring of chairs just like you would at a college party, you know, in London or whatever. But it’s like you’ve got the guy from Saudi Arabia right here. You’ve got the guy from Singapore, the woman from Ireland, you know, and then there’s me from the US and it was, and we were all so friendly.
You know, and it was just like the guy from Saudi was up dancing. He wasn’t drinking, but he was up dancing with us. And, you know, he stepped away from him at no moment to go to his prayer came right back in and it was just such a fun experience. And yeah, and it’s like it didn’t really matter where any of us were from. And I enjoy that because, you know, I’m from the US. So talk about.
People may be judging, you know, you know, me on the country I come from or the politics or whatever’s going on in the world. But I hardly ever run into that. I mean, now, you know, and there’s so many people that won’t leave the U.S. because they’re afraid that if they go somewhere, they’re going to be treated poorly or they’re going to be, you know, all these things are going to happen because they’re from the U.S. And I just I haven’t seen that.
Justin Wateridge (39:06.134)
there.
Justin Wateridge (39:21.582)
I’ve never seen that. think the media proud it. The media give us these negative stories. But I don’t know if you’re lucky enough to travel to have traveled to Iran, maybe not now, but the people are just so wonderfully friendly. I remember this guy coming in and said that
Do you want a cup of coffee? says, no, I don’t want to buy anything. So then I just come and just have a cup of coffee. We just sat there, we chatted. And he had links to England and the UK in different ways. And it was just a fascinating hour just chatting away with him. it’s those small little people moments, people moments.
Jason Elkins (39:50.55)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (39:56.15)
Yeah, that if you’re not going out and having those moments, you don’t get it. You’re just living through the lens of whatever the news wants to put in front of you. When I was in Georgia on this last trip, went out, did a day tour thing, and there was a couple from Iran. They lived in Tehran, and they were just so sweet. We had the most fascinating conversation, and they invited me to come down. They wanted me to see it. He sent me…
Justin Wateridge (40:00.961)
Yeah, exactly.
Jason Elkins (40:20.852)
I was like in August, September, and then for Christmas he sent me a note through WhatsApp, Merry Christmas, Jason, I hope you’re doing well. And you you create these connections that you’re never gonna get if you’re sitting in Milwaukee, Wisconsin or Detroit or whatever. I you’ll have experiences there as well, I’m sure, but it’s pretty cool. All right, so you did this big expedition. I wanna figure out, I wanna see how it all ties in with what you’re doing now. So you did that big expedition.
And then did you continue tour leading or what? did you do right after that?
Justin Wateridge (40:56.142)
So after a while, as my now wife, I became a bit frustrated with me spending so much time overseas and I found me that ultimatum.
Jason Elkins (41:02.304)
Okay, we got, okay, yeah. Let’s figure out, let’s start with how you met her before you went straight to the ultimatum thing. And here’s why I ask, because I also realize that working in tourism, especially if you’re tour leader traveling around a lot, you might meet a lot of people, but sometimes it’s hard to meet somebody and create a connection with them. you don’t have to tell us all the details, but I’m intrigued by that.
Justin Wateridge (41:10.937)
I’m not sure we should go there.
Justin Wateridge (41:32.664)
by how we met?
Jason Elkins (41:33.89)
Well, that you, yeah, that you met, you were living that life, you met somebody and then she said, okay, enough. And you’re, it’s kind of what I heard you say.
Justin Wateridge (41:42.478)
So we met through a friend and I just come back from six months in China. I think she just come back from, she’s a teacher, just come back from Mexico and yeah, yeah, so it was great.
Jason Elkins (41:52.417)
Okay.
But so she was traveling and adventurous.
Justin Wateridge (42:00.871)
No, she likes traveling, she is adventurous, she was a teacher for many, years.
Jason Elkins (42:06.518)
Yeah, okay. Yeah, all right. Very, cool. So you guys, so she said, okay, I think you don’t need to be in a different country every few months. And so.
Justin Wateridge (42:17.228)
Yeah, so there was a company called, there were two adverts that I looked for travel jobs. One was with Steps East. I met with Nick in his flat in London and there were wonderful Uzbek carpets on the wall. There were these Yemeni daggers. And I thought, you know what, hell what, if I can’t be Peter Pan, I’ll work for Peter Pan. yeah, so definitely. Nick has that curiosity for travel.
Jason Elkins (42:37.996)
Yeah. All right.
Justin Wateridge (42:46.134)
similar to me, a lot of people and places and yeah, there was a big connection through.
Jason Elkins (42:52.054)
Was he already running tours? Because you mentioned he started steps east around the time of the fall of Soviet Union. Was he doing tours elsewhere, other type of stuff before that? OK.
Justin Wateridge (43:03.534)
No, don’t know. He wasn’t in trouble. It was something a little bit different for me. Maybe the opportunity, just the curiosity to see what it was like.
Jason Elkins (43:14.294)
So what was your first role in the company?
Justin Wateridge (43:17.646)
trying to sell holidays and they realized that I wasn’t very good at that. And they had another small company called Discovery Initiatives whose strap line was travel that supports conservation. And I think they were ahead of the time. We a lot with the Darn Fossi Gorilla Fund, with Global Tiger Patrol, with Galapagos Conservation Trust, with the Rang and Tang Foundation. And so we were sending clients to different parts of the world.
sometimes with conservationists, but there were always monies were going back to those different agencies. And that was, yeah, that was one amazing time working for them. Again, we were very pioneering. We were sort one of the first companies to go back into Rwanda at the time. We went into DRC, into Gabon, the Congo. So yeah, it was.
Jason Elkins (44:05.634)
All right. So what was it about? You said you didn’t really enjoy or weren’t good at the sales part. So what was, what was the hard part for you when it comes to that?
Justin Wateridge (44:16.92)
that I told people how it was really, that I wasn’t there embellished in different places or whatever. I know, I’m a doer rather than a talker I think so.
Jason Elkins (44:28.34)
Yeah. All right. Fair enough. So, so how did that role work out for you and what was the next role?
Justin Wateridge (44:36.386)
So it was quite short, but then they wanted me to go and run the Discovery Initiative, which was very small, but to help them sort of grow and help them set up different trips and tours and ideas and stuff. yeah, and that was, yeah, it was like being in a small travel startup that was a lot of fun.
Jason Elkins (44:37.856)
you
Jason Elkins (44:52.93)
Okay, so like product development operations type of stuff or how would you describe what you’re doing?
Justin Wateridge (44:56.704)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that kind of stuff. So we set up new trips to go and swim with orcas in the fjords in Norway to, yeah, into Central African Republic to Sangat Sangat to see the forest elephant there. was, yeah, it was just, that was a time of looking at maps and going, okay, let’s find out what’s there or what species is over there. What can we do with that? And that was like, yeah, it was just wonderful.
Jason Elkins (45:17.856)
Yeah, that looks cool. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (45:23.72)
And presumably you were still traveling, maybe not to the same level you were when you were a tour leader. But did this new lifestyle work better for you and your family?
Justin Wateridge (45:36.015)
Yeah, well it did because we were all still together. But yeah, have to go and research different areas. So there were sort of recce trips and research trips where you go off and yeah. And sometimes, sometimes it’s quite hard, especially if you’re in the first sort of wave of people, operators going through into an area. So I remember going to Yemen back in 2005, to Socotra in Yemen.
Jason Elkins (45:37.954)
There you go. Congratulations. That’s very cool.
Justin Wateridge (46:04.224)
And that was very difficult then. think that now is not the time to go to Socotra, but earlier this year, Socotra was beginning to change. were more hotels being built,
Jason Elkins (46:18.07)
Say the name of the place again.
Justin Wateridge (46:19.982)
Sokotra. It’s an island off the coast of Yemen in the Red Sea. It has a large amount of endemism, there’s 210 bird species there, none of which are endemic, so only found on the island. There are 900 plant species, of which 300 plants that are found nowhere else in the world, one of which is called the dragon blood tree.
Jason Elkins (46:45.314)
Do you have a favorite? I don’t want to ask you your favorite place in the world that you can tell me if you want, but I it’s a weird. It’s a tough question that I have sometimes. I don’t know if you like that question, but I am curious like the type of trip if. If you. Maybe I’ll ask you this way. If you had to lead, if you had to go back to trip leading. What kind of trips maybe by region or whatever, but what kind of trips would you most want to do?
Justin Wateridge (47:17.294)
Pioneer and trips where you’re going to somewhere new or you… I like breaking ground in different places.
For me it’s not about the property I stay in. I think some camps in Africa have become so… the actual tents… they’ve become so big that you… if there was a hippo outside my tent I wouldn’t know. I’m so far away from it and I don’t like that. I think that the… I like places without walls that are…
raw, so when you hear the other raw, the raw of the lion, it’s far more visceral. I like, that’s what I’m, I’m about. It’s not about hardship necessarily, it’s not that, but I, it’s not about the feathers in the pillow or the paint scheme on the walls, that’s not about it for me.
Jason Elkins (48:08.236)
So what I hear you saying is if you had choice between running an interesting trip but running the same trip week after week after week after week or doing a different trip every time, it sounds like you’re the type, yeah, no, I don’t wanna do the same thing over and over. Am I picking up on that?
Justin Wateridge (48:29.646)
I think that’s very, yeah, very observant of you. I like difference. like difference, But there are places that I’d like to go back to. And there are places that I haven’t been to for a while that I definitely want to go back to. I think Pakistan is one of them. I was there last year, but I…
Jason Elkins (48:31.938)
Well, it’s basically what you said. I’m pretty observant.
Justin Wateridge (48:50.188)
back in the 90s, I was in the northwest frontier province in Pakistan. So that’s still one of my favorite places that I’ve been to. Just because the scenery is so epic, the people are so wonderful, they’re Shmely, they’re very relaxed, very hospitable, generous people. But I’ve got a very, maybe idyllic sort of, halcyonic image of that. I’m sure it’s different now, but was then, it was wonderful.
Jason Elkins (49:16.726)
Yeah, very cool. Is it challenging for, because it steps, you guys have, you have tour leaders working for you. You mentioned you do mostly FITs, kind of that custom stuff. you doing lead trips as well?
Justin Wateridge (49:26.755)
Mm-hmm.
Justin Wateridge (49:32.046)
So we do have some expert led trips, They’re I don’t know, historian, broadcaster, not actually archeologist, if they’ve got expertise on sort of weaving of the culture or textiles or whatever. So they normally have some expertise that he or she brings to the trip. And then they also have local guides who know Tbilisi or Kazbegi, wherever it might be in Georgia.
Jason Elkins (49:56.544)
Right. So if you had somebody that was a historian or I don’t know, somebody with a following, I’m just going to say somebody with a following that has an audience, a phonographer. Yeah. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect example that that you guys knew where they they reached out to you and said, hey, I’d love to start leading some trips, but I don’t want to handle the marketing. I don’t want to handle the operations. I just.
Justin Wateridge (50:08.206)
A photographer, there’s photographers, yeah.
Jason Elkins (50:25.851)
I, you know, I’ve got an audience. I’m happy to put the trip in front of them, but I want you guys to handle all this stuff and set it up. It sounds like you do that type of stuff, right?
Justin Wateridge (50:35.419)
We definitely do that, yeah. The nuts and bolts and the insurance and all of that, yes.
Jason Elkins (50:40.406)
Yeah, because over the years I’ve dealt with that a lot where you’ve got people that just aspire to lead trips. They don’t necessarily want to get a job leading trips. They’ve got people that, you know, I worked in the fly fishing business. was fly fishing travel. So there were a lot of people that owned fly shops or they were local guides that did really well with their business and they wanted to go to Patagonia and, know, in the what is our winter in the north, they want to go to Patagonia, take a group of people with them.
but they weren’t, they didn’t necessarily wanna do all the work and the logistics and manage all that stuff. So we would set up a lot of trips for them. which is, all right. And I just wanted to share, I wanna share that, cause anybody that’s listened to this, that’s in a similar situation, oughta reach out to you guys.
Justin Wateridge (51:20.535)
Yeah.
Justin Wateridge (51:28.165)
We’re more than happy to speak to people and that’s what travel is about. That’s why I work in travel, about the people you meet, not just necessarily in Uruguay or Bolivia or wherever it might be, it’s the fly fishermen, women, etc. The guides we work with, the…
safari guides to cultural guides in in Cusco wherever it might be yeah you meet wonderful people so I gave a talk gave a talk the other day that and somebody came up to me you when you mention your guide you always mention their name and I said because I remember their names he said well you’ve traveled a lot how do you do that and I said because that’s that’s what it’s it’s about it’s about people so
Jason Elkins (52:17.826)
I’ve thought about, you just the importance of connection and the reason that I enjoy traveling and the reason I’ve wanted, I’ve worked in it and I’ve enjoyed it so long is about the connections. Cause I believe you could drop me at probably the most beautiful place on the planet. And if I’m there by myself, I’m going to be pissed off. I shouldn’t say I’m just going to be like, what the, there’s nobody here to share it with. That’s just me. I’m not saying everybody’s like that.
But it’s like if I see something beautiful, I want to either share it with a local guide, another traveler, someone in my family, just somebody. just personally want to share it with people. And that’s what honestly, that’s why I like trip leading. That’s why I like taking groups of people because I’m sharing it with them and I’m sharing it with the guides. And it’s it’s just such a such an important thing that I don’t know.
What about you? Are you able to enjoy stuff by yourself?
Justin Wateridge (53:19.31)
I do. But I think you’re right. think that shared experience is much stronger. And even whether it’s somebody else uses a different word to describe something or… Yeah, I just… So I’m happy either way, I… But yeah, I’m traveling with either friends, family or… But I will normally always travel with a guide. Again, back to that point that…
that he or she will then give me an insight or open a door or whatever that I’m not going to be able to define on my phone or on the internet or whatever.
Jason Elkins (53:57.086)
I remember I met this young lady in Bali. I was out on one of my walkabouts, just generally walk in the direction I thought I should. And there was this little…
Gathering of street vendors and there was this young woman there ordering some food and I had no idea what the food was there and I just She spoke a little English So I was asking her like what are you eating and tell me what this is and help me help me order some food so she Helped me and described what everything was and I ended up basically getting the same thing she was eating which of course because that’s what was good and
And she wanted pictures. took pictures and then I bought it. I bought her dinner and she’s, you don’t have to. said, no, it’s, for guiding me. You’re my guide. You should be a guide. And she just grander to here. And it was just, so just having that, whether it’s an official guide that you’re paying or just creating those, those moments with people, just asking them to help you and explain things to you is so much fun for me. I just, you know, cause I mean, I could probably now with AI, I could probably pull out my phone, take a picture of the
Justin Wateridge (54:54.264)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (55:01.366)
food cart. Jack GPT would tell me what’s on the food cart, what I should order, what it’s called, but my gosh how boring would that be. anyway so what else do you want to share with our listeners about steps, exciting new thing, the next steps that you’re gonna take. Just kidding that’s bad.
Justin Wateridge (55:04.878)
Work out what it is.
Justin Wateridge (55:23.062)
You know, I think that there’s a lot of information out there on the internet, on AI, but it still doesn’t stand up against the expertise that the team have here in terms of their knowledge and also working out and they’ll also tell you what…
They’re not order takers. They’re there to listen to what clients want and what clients think they want and certainly where they want to go. But they’re not order takers and will come back and certainly say, no, I think you should think about this or that or so.
Jason Elkins (55:56.674)
love that. What is the process for you look like for you guys if I go on your website and I think oh I want to take a trip it sounds like it’s much more of a consultative type of approach so do they go ahead
Justin Wateridge (56:09.036)
No, it definitely is. So yes, you can make an inquiry through the website if you want, but we will definitely want to speak to you on the phone. We won’t do everything through email or whatever. We want to speak to somebody and we really want to understand what…
what they want out of their trip. It’s not just going there to sort of tick off different sites. It’s like, how can we add value for you? And that’s what we do. And if it’s a bigger trip, we would try and meet with somebody as well. Again, it’s so much easier when you meet face to face. We can’t do it with all of our clients. But when we do, again, we, I don’t know, you pick up little things that you might not have done on a Zoom call or whatever. It’s sort of, they’re, I don’t six foot five or something rather than five foot five, whatever it might be.
Jason Elkins (56:51.49)
Yeah, you’re absolutely right and The the zoom caller the video call thing has become easier people are more likely You know to have access to that they kind of have done it
But I also know with technology too, some people are less and less likely to want to have direct contact. I mean, I suspect there’s some people that connect with you guys. Oh, I’m really busy. Can we just do this by email? I don’t really have time to do a call and all that stuff. Have you seen more resistance or less resistance to jumping on a call in the last few years?
Justin Wateridge (57:30.222)
I think possibly less. think that people understand the value of it and especially now that you, where the various AI devices, whatever it is, will record the conversation and give you a transcript of it and say, these are the key five things that I took out from my conversation with you. Do you agree that you only want rooms with, I don’t know, white walls or whatever it might be. So yeah, so I think that the clients like it. And also I think that they…
Jason Elkins (57:41.907)
that’s cool. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (57:53.612)
Yeah.
Justin Wateridge (57:57.839)
in a way, in a world that’s increasingly automated in different ways, that you’re actually speaking to somebody rather than to an AI-generated whatever. And I think that also, yeah, they also realize that the team are not speaking, they’re not reading from a brochure or from a screen. They know this stuff, and so it’s coming from here, from the heart. And also that they’re not all…
We’re all individuals here. There’s not one cookie-cutter travel consultant. They all have their little idiosyncrasies, whatever, and that’s, that’s why we’re in travel, that’s why clients come to them, because they’re a little bit quirky and different.
Jason Elkins (58:44.226)
Yeah, I have a story in my head that some people are reluctant to get on a call because in their regular life and their regular business dealings, it might be a lot of sales calls, right? So let’s say they’re a CEO of a company.
And they’re used to getting people reaching out to, hey, let’s get on a call, discuss your website. Hey, let’s get on a call to discuss new light bulbs for your buildings or whatever. So they’ve got this kind of knee jerk reaction of, oh, I don’t want to get on a call. don’t want sales call, sales call, sales call. And then they decide they want to go to Africa and.
maybe they need to kind of shift gears for a minute and say, wait a minute, this is one of those situations where I do want to get on a call because it’s not you guys necessarily trying to quote unquote sell them anything. It’s trying to create a good memorable experience that works for them. Do you think that’s just a story in my head or do think that does happen a little bit?
Justin Wateridge (59:44.015)
I think there are some who probably are, because they do it all the time for work, don’t want to get on the call, but then it’s up to Alona or Chris, whoever it might be upstairs, who again through their personality, look I think it’ll be worthwhile doing this. And as soon as they get on the call, it’s not a sales pitch, they’re not saying, they’re wanting to, it’s a two way thing, they want to find out about the clients, about what makes them tick and then the clients get it and then they’re in.
Jason Elkins (01:00:01.526)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:00:14.07)
Will you flat out refuse to book somebody that won’t get on a call?
Justin Wateridge (01:00:22.062)
No, if they’ve got a lot of money, no. No, we… There are sometimes, yes, where something’s conducted over email or whatever, but it’s so much our preference to not have that because it’s harder for us to add value.
Jason Elkins (01:00:24.706)
Okay, do you make them do you make them sign a waiver or sign some sort of disclaimer that says
Jason Elkins (01:00:41.559)
Yeah.
Justin Wateridge (01:00:47.15)
and to really understand what the clients want. I think that’s why 60 % of our business is repeat and 20 % is referral because it’s that understanding that’s created and it’s not an automated sort of transaction. It’s about personality.
Jason Elkins (01:00:58.412)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:01:06.582)
I love it and I would go as far as to say in my experiences anyway, if…
somebody just absolutely no I don’t need to get on a call I know what I’m doing this is what I want just set it up for me I would think that that person is the one most likely to give you the slightly lower review than what you like if your average is five star reviews and you get the three star review if I didn’t even like if I’d recently dealt with maybe ten groups and one of those groups
Said, no, I don’t want to get on a call, whatever. And then a month later, something pops in and says, oh, you got a three-star review. If I had to guess which one it would be, I would say it’s probably the one that wouldn’t get on a call with me. I don’t know. What do you think?
Justin Wateridge (01:01:58.723)
I think there’s something in that. think also that they’d be the one who’d say, I don’t like Hotel A. it’s, well, hang on, we told you to go for the Hotel B, but you wanted Hotel A, and you wouldn’t listen.
Jason Elkins (01:02:11.33)
Yeah, so it’s I mean I think that most people like yourselves your team and a lot of people that work in this business really do care about people having good experiences so if you don’t work in the business just believe that when somebody says let’s get on a call in my opinion if they say let’s go out cults because they want to be able to see your face when they say you know like hey tell me about an experience a travel experience you had in the past that didn’t go well
What was it that went wrong and if I can see your face as you’re describing that story I can say okay Maybe we need to shift gears and go a slightly different direction here, you know to make a better experience for them. So I Don’t know What about your kids are your kids interested in travel
Justin Wateridge (01:02:52.482)
Yeah. No, I don’t. Yeah, I don’t.
Justin Wateridge (01:03:02.466)
They are. think that they’ve been lucky and they’ve traveled to some of the places they’ve been to. Like a couple of years ago, I suddenly announced we were going to Dominica in the Caribbean. And I got two girls and a boy that got, they were very excited by it. And then my eldest stopped and said, whoa, daddy, you’re not one for sitting on beaches. So what’s this about? I said, I forgot to tell you, we’re going to go swimming with sperm whales in Dominica.
Jason Elkins (01:03:26.514)
okay.
Justin Wateridge (01:03:29.85)
But they did have some time sitting around a pool because you weren’t on the water the whole time. But they also swam with sperm whales, which is one of the most incredible experiences to be swimming alongside the largest predator in the world. Some 15 meters, five tons. It’s just like,
Jason Elkins (01:03:46.796)
That’s very cool. How old were your kids the first time you took them on a trip? Probably different answer for each one of them, I’m sure, but…
Justin Wateridge (01:03:54.031)
Yeah, a little bit. So with my girls, they were about three and a half and 18 months when we went to Sri Lanka. So Sri Lanka is wonderful with children. Sri Lankans are so good with kids. I think my wife regretted it that the younger one didn’t sleep much on the plane and she wasn’t very happy when the plane went.
when the pilot announces a big thunderstorm and she turns around to me, I told her we should have gone to Wales.
Jason Elkins (01:04:24.45)
yeah. So based on your experience, what do you tell a parent that likes to travel, has kids on the way? Like, what do you, do you think there is a right age to start traveling with them and anything before that is just kind of stressful for everybody? Or is there a right age?
Justin Wateridge (01:04:43.79)
Right, so you’ve got good American clients, they travel with a young kid to Guyana and John in the office who looks after Guyana was so excited, he said, look, we don’t do much business there, but I’ve certainly had not somebody with a of an 18 month old kid and they loved it.
You can start from any age. Whether the children will remember it is a different issue. There are some things that I would certainly wait with children. Certainly if you’re going to safari, I wouldn’t do it much before 12 because they haven’t necessarily got the patience just to sit and wait and watch. their attention span’s not long enough to be able to perhaps appreciate the wildlife or wait for the wildlife around them. So there are some things like that.
Jason Elkins (01:05:31.426)
I guess the thought there too is, know, remember situations on Safari where you’re with other people that are not necessarily in your group. It’s one thing if you’ve got a private guide. You know, if you’ve got a private guide and vehicle and your kids are, you know, losing interest, it’s one thing. But it’s also bringing kids on these situations where you’re interacting with other guests or, you know, at the lodge or that type of thing.
Justin Wateridge (01:05:52.994)
video.
Thank you.
Jason Elkins (01:05:59.106)
I’m sure plays into it. you guys, do you do many family trips with young kids?
Justin Wateridge (01:06:07.852)
Yeah, so maybe a quarter of our business is family, but not necessarily the young, kids. I think that for us, it’s more the experience sort of to 12 plus. I think before that kids probably want water, whether it be the sea or swimming pool or something. And we can do it, but it’s like there’s only so much value we can add to that. Whereas ours is designing the right itinerary for the kids when they’re a bit older and they can do fun things, sleep out, either hiking, biking, whatever it might be.
Jason Elkins (01:06:31.159)
Right.
Jason Elkins (01:06:36.758)
Right, right. And you mentioned earlier in the conversation, we discussed how steps kind of came out of the fall of the Soviet Union. Is that still the bread and butter? I know you’ve expanded to do a bunch of other things, but is that still the bread and butter or has it shifted away from that?
Justin Wateridge (01:06:52.25)
it was really nobody’s going to Russia at the moment so for obvious reasons so but the the Stans are a big part of our business so but our biggest destinations are probably India, Kenya, South Africa, Ecuador, the Galapagos of Peru, Argentina, China, Japan.
Jason Elkins (01:06:55.478)
Well, yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:07:13.058)
All right, very cool. Justin, we’ve discussed a bunch of things about your past, about steps, just kind of philosophical stuff, tips, pointers, all that. What did I forget to ask you? What do you wish I would have asked you? So we can cover that before we wrap up. I want our listeners to get a chance to hear whatever you think is important that they hear.
Justin Wateridge (01:07:34.254)
Well, I think we’ve, as you said, we’ve covered a lot and thank you for that. It’s been great speaking, talking with you. I think that it’s for me that…
Don’t be afraid to go outside your comfort zone. I think that’s where the magic happens. think it’s about that and travel is about breaking down barriers and borders and that we are we have so much in common with other people around the world. There are some wonderful differences and the difference cultural differences or maybe genetic in different ways but we’re essentially we are the same people and I think that we
And also just positivity. think it’s so easy in this sometimes negative world, and certainly the one that the media portrays to us, that positivity and smiling make such a difference.
Jason Elkins (01:08:22.786)
Yeah, absolutely. Well said. Justin, thank you so much. This has been a lot of fun conversation. I learned a lot about you and steps and and we’re going to have the link in the show notes. So anybody that’s that feels a connection with Justin and his team through Justin because he’s the one that’s here. Click on the link in the show notes. Go take a look at their website. You’re doing a bunch of cool stuff and you kind of have a better feel for kind of what his philosophy and thought process is. And I like that. So, Justin, thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Justin Wateridge (01:08:53.87)
Jason, thank you very much. Have fun in Bogota and let’s see you travelling or meeting in a bar in Singapore, wherever it is. Yeah, take care.
Jason Elkins (01:09:01.686)
Sounds good. Let’s do it. Thanks Justin. I’ll chat with you soon. Bye bye.
Justin Wateridge (01:09:06.712)
Thank you.
Jason Elkins (01:09:12.054)
Thank you.

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