Guest Bio
Keren Mikva is the Director of Alpengirl, an outdoor adventure program dedicated to empowering young women through immersive experiences in nature. Originally from Chicago, Keren discovered her love for the outdoors during summers spent at sleepaway camp in the Berkshires of Massachusetts. After earning a B.A. in Political Science from Stanford University, she realized her path lay far beyond the world of politics. She booked a one-way ticket to New Zealand, setting off on a journey that ultimately led her into a career in outdoor guiding.
Over the past decade, Keren has built a diverse resume leading whitewater rafting expeditions, hiking and biking tours, and multi-adventure trips around the globe. She has guided on the Snake River in Wyoming and the Rio Grande in New Mexico, led cycling adventures through Croatia and New Zealand, and coordinated trips across Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks. Now based in Bozeman, Montana, she continues to explore the Mountain West while shaping meaningful outdoor experiences for the next generation.
With a Master’s Degree in Sustainability in the Outdoor Industry from the University of Colorado Boulder, Keren brings both passion and purpose to her leadership at Alpengirl. She is deeply committed to mentorship, environmental stewardship, and creating supportive spaces where girls can build confidence, resilience, and a lifelong connection to the outdoors.
Show Summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Keren about her journey from suburban Chicago to directing one of the country’s most inspiring outdoor programs for girls. She shares how early camp experiences shaped her love of adventure and how years of guiding around the world prepared her to lead and mentor young women in the outdoors.
The conversation dives into what makes Alpengirl unique — from skill-building backcountry trips to thoughtfully designed mother-daughter adventures that strengthen family bonds. Keren explains how the program focuses on empowerment rather than competition, creating a supportive environment where girls can challenge themselves, learn practical outdoor skills, and discover their own strength.
Jason and Keren also discuss the realities of guiding, the importance of communication with families, and why outdoor education plays such a critical role in personal growth. At its core, Alpengirl is about building confidence, community, and connection — all through the transformative power of adventure.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Alpengirl creates outdoor experiences designed specifically to build confidence in young women.
- ✓ Early exposure to adventure can shape lifelong passions and career paths.
- ✓ Mother-daughter trips provide meaningful opportunities for connection outside everyday routines.
- ✓ Skilled, compassionate guides are essential to fostering a positive camp culture.
- ✓ Learning practical outdoor skills helps girls develop independence and resilience.
- ✓ Group adventure travel comes with challenges that ultimately strengthen teamwork and leadership.
- ✓ Clear communication with parents supports camper success and trust.
- ✓ Outdoor programs can be empowering without being wilderness therapy.
- ✓ A supportive, fun environment makes the outdoors more accessible to all experience levels.
- ✓ Adventure travel can be a powerful catalyst for personal growth at any age.
What You’ll Find on Alpengirl
- ✓ Multi-day summer adventure camps for girls
- ✓ Mother-daughter outdoor trips designed to deepen connection
- ✓ Backpacking, hiking, rafting, and multi-sport experiences
- ✓ Skill-building programs focused on leadership and confidence
- ✓ A mentorship-driven approach led by experienced female guides
- ✓ Programs rooted in sustainability and environmental stewardship
Learn more about Alpengirl, USA and connect with Keren at:
https://alpengirlcamp.com
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Jason Elkins (00:00.928)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. So excited to have each and every one of you back today and also super excited because we’ve got a great guest. Today we’ve got Keren Mikva. Keren is the director of Alpengirl, which we’re gonna figure out what is that here in just a moment. But Keren, welcome to the show. So excited to have you here.
Keren Mikva (00:21.73)
Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here.
Jason Elkins (00:24.736)
Yeah, Alpengirl, you know what a heck of a lot better than I do, so I’m not even gonna try and say what it is. I just thought it was really cool when you and I first connected and I kind of got to learn a little bit about it. But I specifically said don’t tell me too much because I like surprises. I’m just that way. So now you can surprise me and our listeners with what is Alpengirl? What should we know?
Keren Mikva (00:46.136)
Yeah, so Alpen Girl started as an outdoor adventure summer camp for teen girls. We’ve now expanded to also mother-daughter trips and trips for adult women. But teen camps are still at the heart of what we do. So we run one to two week multi-adventure camping, backpacking, and trips all over the US and also now in Europe. So teaching girls outdoor living skills and having a lot of fun along the way.
Jason Elkins (01:14.326)
This is so cool. It’s a little different than, you know, some of the conversations we’ve had on the show. We’ve had quite a few guests that do women’s travel, you know, so there’s some crossover. But what I love about this is you’re them when they’re younger. You’re not waiting until they’re midlife trying to figure out what to do. I don’t want to say anything that makes it sound like women that…
Keren Mikva (01:31.47)
We started at the age of 10.
Jason Elkins (01:34.196)
Yeah, exactly. And that’s the part that I think is super cool, because there’s women of all ages and men of all ages that are different parts of life and choosing to do things. I just have always believed that getting kids to go do stuff is really, really cool, because as I’m sure we’ll discuss, there’s a lot of things out there right now that they could be putting their attention towards that’s probably not as good. So we’ll discuss that a bit. Where are you, I guess, two-part question, where are you?
Located where do you live and then is Alp and girl in the same place or what is that like?
Keren Mikva (02:08.514)
Yeah, so I am based in Bozeman, Montana, and that is where Alpen Girl’s headquarters are. And we run our trips in the Northern Rockies, so out of the Montana, Wyoming, Idaho area. We also have a lot of trips in the Pacific Northwest, in Washington and Oregon, in New England on the East Coast, and now in Europe, we are in Iceland and Slovenia.
Jason Elkins (02:30.516)
I have so many questions already I’m trying to like okay slow down Jason. Let’s bet but I we’re gonna come back to that because that’s kind of the idea is I want to go first I want to go back to figure out you know kind of who you are how did you get from where you were to where you are now and then I know that along the way I’m gonna have a lot of questions but then when we get back to Alp and girl and all the cool things you guys are doing I already have some questions saved up so let’s Keren how far back do we need to go sometimes I ask that and people go all the way back to
Keren Mikva (02:54.478)
Totally.
Jason Elkins (02:59.478)
was born on such and such a day in such and such a town and other people try and say well a few years ago there’s always it’s always more than a few years so how far can I get you to go back with me
Keren Mikva (03:01.934)
you
Keren Mikva (03:09.838)
I’d say it makes the most sense to start at what I call my big left turn, which was in, I guess, 2014. So not too far back, a decade plus.
Jason Elkins (03:18.294)
Okay.
But because of the nature of this conversation, I’ve found myself in an awkward spot that you gave me a year and I really kind of because of the nature of this conversation, I kind of want to know how old you were as well, but I don’t want to ask you how old you were. So let’s pretend you didn’t give me the year.
Keren Mikva (03:29.142)
Mm.
Keren Mikva (03:35.95)
You know what, it’s okay, I’ll allow it. I was 24.
Jason Elkins (03:42.508)
Okay, all right. I, I, I just, yeah. Can we, can we go further? Here’s, here’s, here’s the thing though. I want to get to 24, but we’re talking about young girls, life-changing experiences, things like that. I feel like in this particular case, we need to go back to how young you said 12 year old girls is where you start with the girls in camp.
Keren Mikva (03:46.222)
You’re like, I don’t want to dig a hole.
Keren Mikva (04:05.579)
We start at 10 now.
Jason Elkins (04:07.541)
So let’s go back to 10. Just because of the nature of this conversation. I wouldn’t push that otherwise. But what was going on in your world at 10?
Keren Mikva (04:09.901)
All right.
Keren Mikva (04:13.515)
No, it’s totally fair. Well, it’s funny, I don’t have a big, you know, childhood in the outdoors story really. I grew up primarily between Chicago and Westchester, New York. So definitely not exactly mountain adjacent. And yeah, you know, grew up doing like the normal suburban things, played basketball, went to the playground, never backpacked or camped day in my life.
Jason Elkins (04:30.828)
Mm-hmm.
Keren Mikva (04:42.445)
and ended up going to college in California. I remember trying to like schedule a camping trip in national in Yosemite with some friends and being shocked that like you needed reservations to backpack or camp there. I’d never been introduced to any of that. So I had very little experience in any of this. So I left college, sorry.
Jason Elkins (04:56.108)
Okay.
Jason Elkins (05:04.245)
But how closely does that match your typical camper?
Keren Mikva (05:11.157)
You know, it’s pretty typical. think, you know, we have the whole spectrum of campers. We have the campers who are from Bozeman and, you know, this is their backyard. And so they’re in the mountains every day. And then we have campers who come from New York City and have never slept in a tent a day in their life. So we definitely have the whole spectrum. I, you know, as a late bloomer in the outdoor industry, I definitely resonate with those who are like trying to figure it out for the first time. And it was harder to learn as a
Jason Elkins (05:14.144)
Yeah, it the console.
Keren Mikva (05:41.653)
old dogs. It’s fun to get the girls started young.
Jason Elkins (05:43.735)
Hey, we don’t have to talk about old. I’m the old one here. But I get what you’re, I’m still trying to figure things out. So do you think that, I mean, because yeah, when you said between Chicago and New York, what part of New York?
Keren Mikva (05:47.615)
Okay, I’ll you back.
Keren Mikva (06:00.779)
Westchester, so it’s like 45 minutes from our city.
Jason Elkins (06:02.252)
Okay, that’s pretty close to the city. Yeah, yeah. So, and I’m just was imagining a lot of the campers that come out are probably kind of live in, you know, kind of similar backgrounds. Do you think that part has helped you? you think like, like when you meet the girls and you’re like, oh yeah, you know, they’re like, wow, this is kind of interesting. And you can say, well, yeah, I grew up in Chicago as well or something like, does that, I suspect that comes up, doesn’t it? Is like, that’s helpful or not? mean, I.
Keren Mikva (06:13.261)
total.
Keren Mikva (06:27.063)
Totally, I think something that has definitely helped me in my guiding career and that I try to make sure it stays top of mind for our guides who are in the field every summer is, you know, this might be old hat for you, but this is the first time for everybody else. And I think the more recently you’ve learned something, more easily you remember that. And so I think it increases your patience and your understanding of where your campers and where your participants are coming from.
Jason Elkins (06:56.652)
Because if you grew up in Bozeman, I mean, I know Bozeman. If you grew up in Bozeman and your parents were just into the hiking and fishing and camping and all that stuff that Bozeman has to offer, it might be a little harder to kind of understand what your, I don’t want to say your target audience, but your campers. Is that what you call them, campers? Right? Or is there a better phrase?
Keren Mikva (06:56.715)
You know, I think, yeah, it’s a lot.
Totally.
Keren Mikva (07:16.697)
Yeah, I mean when they’re in program we’re campers and then we have our adults so participants, know, kind of the structure. You know, we do have one of our programs that we built as an adult summer camp so those ones we can call campers.
Jason Elkins (07:23.154)
The adults don’t like being called campers, do you think? Have you tested that?
Jason Elkins (07:30.442)
Yeah, I’d like to go to camp. I didn’t get to go when I was young. I’d go. I can’t go to your camp. anyway, all right. So, OK, so I just wanted to touch on that because I felt like there’s probably some connection between you and the typical camper that comes out. I thought that might be interesting. And it was.
So let’s go back to you went to college in California. You wanted to go camping in Yosemite because that apparently was your first like attempt to go and how did that even come up? Do you remember the details? Like were you the one driving that train or someone else?
Keren Mikva (08:01.036)
It was like…
I honestly couldn’t tell you whose idea it was. Some friends and I wanted to do that for our senior year spring break. Because we were in Palo Alto, and none of us had ever been to Yosemite. And we figured that we should probably go before we left California. And yep, didn’t work. Couldn’t get a reservation, so we scrapped it.
Jason Elkins (08:22.262)
Well, wait, there’s other places to go camping in California, aren’t there? You didn’t know that though, did you?
Keren Mikva (08:26.047)
Yeah, well, okay, it got downgraded. It went from Yosemite to, okay, we’ll camp somewhere nearby, more closer than Yosemite, couldn’t get a reservation anywhere. And then we said, we’ll camp on campus somewhere. We’ll set up a tent like in a, on the quad or something. And then it rained. So then we said, okay, we’ll set up a tent in the living room and we’ll just watch movies in the house. And then we got too tired to set up the tent. So that was the de-evolution of our camping trip.
Jason Elkins (08:46.54)
Ha
Jason Elkins (08:53.804)
That’s so funny. I get it. I can relate to that. Yeah, you tried and that’s funny. Turned into the staycation, but yeah, that’s pretty funny. All right. But you got to go through the whole process of thinking about it and exploring. so did that. Do you think that that inspired you to try again? Apparently, I mean, you’re…
Keren Mikva (08:55.693)
We tried.
Keren Mikva (09:04.669)
Exactly. All we did was watch movies and go to bed.
Keren Mikva (09:23.484)
Potentially. So I guess the the pristine events would be I you know I took a job in New York City after college and it was a job at the Maracourt. I’ve worked in tenant advocacy for public housing residents and it’s a one-year contract and they say you know by the end of your year like maybe your organization
gives you a full-time offer. towards the end of that year, my organization made me an offer to stay and I told them I’d think about it. And while I was thinking about it, I realized how much I hated living in New York City and everything that had to do with my job. So on a whim, I bought a one-way ticket to New Zealand and gave my regrets that I couldn’t take the full-time job and just moved to New Zealand. So that was my left turn in 2014.
Jason Elkins (10:15.03)
That’s the left turn.
Keren Mikva (10:15.303)
And I don’t know how I picked New Zealand. I have no idea where that came from except for the fact that you could get a working there.
Jason Elkins (10:19.5)
Apparently because it’s like the farthest place you can go And there’s mountains
Keren Mikva (10:25.261)
But at the time, I think they still have this program. They have a working holiday visa program if you’re between 18 and 30 35 or something. So it gives you working privileges. And so I said, OK, great. I’ll just save up some money and I’ll go work in New Zealand, which feels like the polar opposite of New York City.
Jason Elkins (10:29.132)
I
Jason Elkins (10:44.3)
Okay, before we hear about what you did in New Zealand, a couple questions. What did you go to school for? What were you studying in school?
Keren Mikva (10:52.215)
I have an undergrad degree in political science.
Jason Elkins (10:56.076)
Okay, I was gonna guess political science or sociology or something like that. Yeah, just because of the job you described that you went into. So when you were going to school for political science, know some people go into school for political science. If you ask them what are you gonna do after you get out?
They’re like, I’m just going to get a degree. And then others want to be politicians or journalists or something like that. Did you have a plan around that or was that just because it would be a fascinating thing to study, I think.
Keren Mikva (11:28.341)
Yeah, I think I really loved the, I loved the studying part of it. I liked having, basically you just learn how to argue and I love having spirited conversations. And you learn how to think and I think that’s kind of the point of college in my mind. But I also, I ran the campus chapter for Habitat for Humanity.
And so I got really interested in housing policy. And so that’s kind of what led me to this job afterwards. But then I realized that you spend a lot of time in front of a computer when you work in that field. And that didn’t really resonate with me.
Jason Elkins (12:05.296)
okay. That’s interesting. Did you spend any time dealing with the actual clients, residents? I’m not sure really what you would call the niche that you were serving.
Keren Mikva (12:16.351)
Yeah, so AmeriCorps is an interesting program. I was with the AmeriCorps VISTA program and there were some limitations where you were meant to be serving in a capacity building role and so they wanted to prevent you from doing direct service. And I think the intent was to keep their AmeriCorps volunteers from being, you know, given all the grunt work that an organization didn’t want to do because they have these essentially free.
workers, but it actually really tied my hands in my role so I couldn’t do any one-on-one counseling with tenants. They allowed me to run workshops, so as long as it wasn’t one-on-one I could run tenant advocacy workshops, but then if somebody needed support on like their specific case, I couldn’t help. So there wasn’t as much hands-on work as I had wanted there to be.
Jason Elkins (13:03.542)
So I heard you said, I really did not like living in New York and it doesn’t sound like you were super excited about the job. If you’d gotten a similar job in Bozeman, I don’t know if there’s an AmeriCorps project in Bozeman, but if you’d gotten a similar job in a different place that you were, you know, between the mountains or whatever, you meant something like that, do you think things would have gone differently or would you still been like, no, I hate this, gotta, I’m going to New Zealand?
Keren Mikva (13:32.941)
I don’t know. think that’s a really good question. I guess we’ll never know, will we?
Jason Elkins (13:40.682)
Well, that’s the challenge of it, right? Like you can answer anything because there’s no right or wrong answer. I just curious because I actually like I’ve learned that I like cities. I grew up in Wyoming. You know, I’ve lived in Bozeman. I’m kind of a country boy back, you know, mountains hunting, fishing and all that stuff. But I’m actually at the point in my life where I for some reason really like cities. But I don’t know I’m going with this other than I recognize if you just like not in that mood to be in cities, that can suck.
Keren Mikva (13:45.291)
Right.
Jason Elkins (14:08.81)
Right, but if you put if you’re in Bozeman and you think my god, look how lucky I am I get to live in Bozeman I sit behind a computer all day and I don’t get to talk to any clients, but I’m in Bozeman So maybe I’ll just gonna ride this train for a while So like at the end of that first year when they said hey, do you want to stick around? You’re like, hey Bozeman’s a pretty great place I just if you ever even thought about it
Keren Mikva (14:27.755)
I never actually thought about that. I think it was definitely a combination of like, I’ve been on the track of you go to school, then you get a job, then you do that till you retire. And I was like, what if I didn’t do that? What if I just probably booked? I made it, I made it 16 months, Jason.
Jason Elkins (14:38.7)
For a year? but you were on, yeah, okay, gotcha. You did it for a year, good job.
Jason Elkins (14:48.62)
okay so you know the next question is gonna be I don’t know if you know what the next question is gonna be but I know the next question like a couple things your parents were they so okay so you were long ways away you’re in California presumably they were either in Chicago New York or a combination of the two how did they feel about you going to California would be the first question
Keren Mikva (14:49.527)
Thank you.
Keren Mikva (15:11.949)
I went to my mom’s alma mater. So that one was in-house, so it was allowed.
Jason Elkins (15:14.665)
Okay.
So you got some support there, okay. All right. How did they feel when you chose political science without saying I want to be a lawyer?
Keren Mikva (15:28.205)
So I come from a large extended family of politicians and lawyers. that kind of felt like, all right, you’re going by the playbook.
Jason Elkins (15:33.374)
Okay, all right. Okay. Ooh, I see this. see something. I don’t know how. Okay. So then move into New York and working in housing policy stuff probably felt like a pretty good fit. And then bam, I bought a one way ticket to New Zealand. Presumed me. I don’t know if you still owed money. I don’t know if your parents paid for your school. We don’t need to go into all the details, but what the hell did they think when you did that?
Keren Mikva (15:50.806)
Yeah, absolutely.
Keren Mikva (16:03.607)
whatever they actually thought, they did a really good job of making it feel supported. Right, well, to be fair, I think that they probably thought, okay, I should do this for a month or two and then we’ll like get back on track. And then I think maybe when I said, now after a year, I’m going to Australia for a year, they’re like, okay, now what’s happening?
Jason Elkins (16:05.74)
God.
I love that. Some parents have a really hard time doing that. So good. That’s awesome.
Jason Elkins (16:20.876)
It’s a gap year. It’s an afterschool gap year.
Jason Elkins (16:30.252)
Alright, what did you do in New Zealand?
Keren Mikva (16:32.993)
So on working holiday visa, you can kind of just bop around. So I picked up a bunch of odd jobs. I bartended mostly and wound up in Queenstown for least half the year. And so I did a snowboarding season on the mountain in Queenstown, fell in love with snowboarding and kind of the mountain town community at that point.
Jason Elkins (16:46.902)
love it there.
Jason Elkins (16:57.258)
Yeah, I think that’s kind of the Bozeman of New Zealand, isn’t it? mean, it’s, I’m, right? Yeah, I mean, I’ve spent time in Greenstown as well. It’s pretty cool. I get it, yeah. All right.
Keren Mikva (17:00.533)
It’s exactly what that is, yeah.
Keren Mikva (17:06.357)
Yeah. Yeah, it was a great time. I lived in a 36-person share house, had the time of my life.
Jason Elkins (17:14.476)
Wow that’s probably a whole other podcast episode there on a different show we won’t party in the New Zealand but that’s very very cool and so
Keren Mikva (17:19.765)
Hahaha.
you
Jason Elkins (17:27.084)
It sounded like you said you thought maybe you’d go for a while or maybe you said your parents thought maybe you’d go for a while and get it out of your system. Did you kind of think that as well when you originally went to New Zealand? Did you think, nope, I’m completely leaving that life behind. I’m going to New Zealand for right now and then maybe some other, I’m just going to go bop around because I think you used the term bop around. Or was it just going to be a temporary thing?
Keren Mikva (17:47.022)
Yeah, my goal was I’m going to try to last as long as I can until I run out of money. And so that was kind of just going to be whatever determined when I had to give up. I was like, have to leave enough in your account to buy a plane ticket home, and then the rest of it you can go. But you can pick up work pretty easily on that visa. So I managed to last. And when I first left, I went with my cousin.
Jason Elkins (17:55.081)
You
Jason Elkins (18:04.044)
Uh-huh.
Jason Elkins (18:10.71)
All right.
Keren Mikva (18:14.121)
and that was super fun. She had a ton more experience in the outdoors. She grew up going to like a tripping summer camp type program and so first time I ever went backpacking was with her in the South Island of New Zealand which is like a pretty phenomenal way to start your backpacking career if you’re ever wondering.
Jason Elkins (18:28.396)
Yeah, you think? Did you do that right around Queenstown? Because there’s some really cool tracks right there. I was just curious if you did one of those. Yeah.
Keren Mikva (18:36.705)
Yeah, we did the Kepler track, which is not too far away from Queenstown.
Jason Elkins (18:42.25)
That was your first, so that was that your first backpacking trip? You mentioned you did your first backpacking trip, but it was on the Kepler, right? Wow, yeah, you’re right. For anybody that doesn’t know what that means, that’s pretty damn cool. And did you like it? Yeah.
Keren Mikva (18:48.053)
Mm-hmm. With the Kepler track. Yeah, I I remember it’s…
Keren Mikva (18:55.699)
It was amazing, but I remember, you know, like you’re seeing you, there’s a learning curve. So I remember the first day we, it was like seven miles all uphill to our first hut for the night. And we get up there and I was like, Sarah, I don’t know how you do this. My shoulders about to fall off. And she’s like, why isn’t your hip belt buckled? And I was like, what’s a hip belt? That’s for nerds. Why would I buckle that?
Jason Elkins (19:18.636)
Yeah, that looks like wearing a fanny pack doesn’t it? I’m not gonna wear a fanny pack.
Keren Mikva (19:22.141)
Exactly, yeah. So I just about died the first day and then she helped me fit and adjust my backpack and you know I would like try to set up our camp stove upside down and there was
Jason Elkins (19:30.7)
Did she know about your first camping trip? All right, anyway.
Keren Mikva (19:38.293)
I may have left out some details.
Keren Mikva (19:45.153)
We’re related, she has to help save me. Those are the rules.
Jason Elkins (19:47.948)
Yeah, that’s a good point. Yeah, because she’s going to have to explain to her parents and your parents and yeah, that would be.
Keren Mikva (19:51.219)
Hahaha
Keren Mikva (19:55.166)
Exactly, yeah. So she had vested interests in helping me succeed there, which was awesome.
Jason Elkins (20:03.616)
So what, so, you mentioned also the snowboarding. Did you, you mentioned Bartan, you mentioned some of the other jobs you were doing, and maybe you mentioned it, but were any of them directly tourist related at that point? Because Queenstown, there’s pretty much everything there’s tourist related, but you know what I mean.
Keren Mikva (20:03.662)
Keren Mikva (20:21.229)
Yeah, no kidding. No, I mostly in terms of work was bartending and then falling in love with all of the hobbies. And then it wasn’t until I ran out my visa in New Zealand and hopped over to Australia for a year that I thought, well, why don’t I start working in the things that I want to do that I can’t afford to do? And so I picked up a job as a water sports instructor on the Gold Coast.
And I really wanted to go flyboarding, where you have like a wakeboard looking thing with cannons on the bottom, it’s connected to a jet ski and you get to fly in the air above the ocean. And I really wanted to try it. So I thought, okay, great, I’ll get a job there. And then I can do it and train for free in the morning. And so that’s what I started working kind of in the customer facing tourism side of things. And then realized that you can do a whole career in that.
Jason Elkins (21:00.076)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (21:07.756)
huh.
Jason Elkins (21:18.068)
So this is fascinating because I’ve seen those. mean, most people have seen them. And I think you described it well enough that anybody that’s listening to this can kind of imagine what we’re talking about. But was the company you were water sports instructor. But you also there were that wasn’t the only activity that the tour operator had, right? You were doing other things as well.
Keren Mikva (21:42.094)
They, he’s mostly, mostly like jet ski tours. So they did jet ski tours, flyboarding. They had some other like boat rentals. So, you know, I, you know, you put on charming face, you get the job, they ask for your boat license. You say, me 24 hours, your next day off, you go get your boat license. Then you turn it back in. Hope they don’t notice the date was yesterday.
Jason Elkins (22:04.364)
and now you’re now you’re trusted to take out people on the ocean yeah it’s interesting how that works but okay the flyboard though I have to ask you some questions about that because it looks super super cool but I can’t imagine a scenario where I show up and there’s a tour opera and they say we do flyboarding give us a hundred bucks and we’ll do a
Keren Mikva (22:07.691)
And here we are. Exactly.
Jason Elkins (22:30.544)
long flyboarding course I can’t imagine anything other than me just flopping around in the water like like a porpoise or like some can they can like a beginner actually like enjoy that
Keren Mikva (22:43.169)
Yeah, I mean, you’re not wrong. There’s a lot of flapping around in the water. But to get up and to hover like a couple feet above the ocean is actually attainable in an hour lesson for the average person.
Jason Elkins (22:52.971)
Yeah.
Keren Mikva (22:58.697)
if they listen to instructions.
Jason Elkins (22:59.308)
Well there you go. So that’s not the average person then. The average person is not going to listen. What was that?
Keren Mikva (23:03.821)
I mean, to be honest, was a snowboard instructor for many years also. Yeah, that’s fair. I’d say I was a snowboard instructor for many years also, and I’d say it’s like a somewhat equal success rate for a first day of snowboarding, for a first day of liveboarding.
Jason Elkins (23:19.744)
Well, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And I remember when I was pretty young, we did.
I wish I wouldn’t have started this because now I can’t. Just a surfboard with a sail on it. Sailboarding probably? Right? I know it’s not, it’s kind of old school. It’s just like a surfboard with a, with a, know, it looks like a little sailboat but it’s a surfboard. It’s a surf, a sailboard, right? Windsor, of course Windsor.
Keren Mikva (23:36.163)
wait. Picture game?
Keren Mikva (23:46.143)
Yeah, yeah, windsurfing. Isn’t it windsurfing?
Jason Elkins (23:52.95)
Geez, maybe I can go get my boat license and be a water sports instructor. can take a windsurfing. But not to to knock that. think it’s in a good way because people go do things that they might otherwise have barriers and they might not. Anyway. And I remember we went out to try to do that. I never ever got it to the point where I could actually stand up and hold the sail. so the flyboarding sound.
you know, I’m pretty adventurous, know, I’ve kinda done the paramotor thing and paratrooper, you know, I’m not afraid of stuff and I’m not afraid to do it other than I just can imagine people watching me just like, oh wow. So, but if you have, but you were a snowboard instructor, so I guess the other part of the question was, if you’re a snowboard instructor and you’ve spent a lot of time, you’re probably a little bit more agile and comfortable standing on something that moves unexpectedly, was it easier for you?
Keren Mikva (24:47.757)
I mean, preferred snowboarding came later, or the instructing came later, but I did not have snowboard. And I wouldn’t say that I was phenomenal at flyboarding by any means. And I think the thing that helped me the most was that I was 25. I was a little bit more limber.
Jason Elkins (24:52.626)
Okay, okay, but you knew how to snowboard at least
Jason Elkins (25:06.24)
Well, yeah, what are you saying? That was the other thing I was thinking about is how sore I’d probably be at end of the day. Yeah, okay. So the people that can do it well, like when you watch a TikTok or YouTube or something and you see somebody like flipping around doing all kinds of cool stuff that looks like it’s AI generated, how much work does it take to get to the point?
Keren Mikva (25:14.679)
Yeah.
Keren Mikva (25:34.817)
be a fair bit. We would go in the morning before work to quote unquote train, which really just meant flying each other because it was fun until we got in trouble for using too much petrol in the jet skis. you know, training most mornings for like four months, I got a backflip one time and many, many, faceplants.
Jason Elkins (25:56.852)
Okay, all right. That’s, cause that’s what I envision. I just look at those guys and I’m like, wow, that’s a lot of time and commitment. And then of course I, I, well, if you’re good at it, do you make more money? Do you, can you make money just being good at flyboarding?
Keren Mikva (26:03.564)
Yeah.
Keren Mikva (26:12.833)
I think maybe four people in the world can make money from being good at flyboarding.
Jason Elkins (26:14.986)
Yes, not that not that making money has ever been a concern of mine, but. All right. Anyway, I know you didn’t come here to talk. No, well, I guess I better pick something else. I’ll just do a pod. I’ll do a podcast instead. It works at the same numbers, maybe four people in the world make money. So in that sense, I’m pretty adventurous, kind of like a wing border. Anyway.
Keren Mikva (26:20.973)
But yeah, if that’s your angle, this may not be the path.
Yeah.
Keren Mikva (26:32.939)
There you go.
Keren Mikva (26:40.916)
Absolutely.
Jason Elkins (26:44.576)
Let’s get back on track here. So that’s what you’re doing in Australia. You presumably were on a year long visa. Did you spend pretty much that whole year doing water sports instructing and learning how to flyboard and face plant?
Keren Mikva (26:54.719)
No, I bartended for the first half of the year again. Spent a couple months down in Melbourne, went over to Perth for a couple months, and then landed in the Gold Coast up until my visa ran out. And then came back to the US and was like, well, let do the equivalent of a working holiday in the US because that’s been so fun for the last two years. So bought a car, started driving around. And then at one point, was somewhere in the Southwest and I
I searched fun in Craigslist jobs, which I don’t recommend. Some weird stuff comes up, but one of the things that came up was a fun guide school for a whitewater rafting company in New Mexico. So then I found guiding and I thought, great. I can keep doing that thing I was talking about where I do a hobby for money.
Jason Elkins (27:27.212)
I can only imagine what might show up, but we won’t talk about it. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (27:44.661)
So.
Jason Elkins (27:49.514)
Yeah. And was it like fun was just part of the title of the ad or was it like the company was named for? that’s cool.
Keren Mikva (27:53.901)
Yeah, it was just in the description. It was New Mexico River Adventures. Shout out Matt and Wendy Gontrom at NMRA. They’re the greatest. They ran a guide school for new guides that had no experience whitewater rafting and who just needed to be mildly athletic and good with people. And they’re like, we can teach you the rest. So then I got into guiding.
Jason Elkins (28:03.507)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (28:14.359)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the good with people part is pretty important. Yeah, all right. So was it right off like in the rafts, it’s a rafting thing. That sounds so like, I sound like I’ve never seen a raft either. It’s kind of like sailboarding or kitesurfing or whatever you call it. But anyway, do you like, what did you like most about it?
Keren Mikva (28:27.115)
Yeah.
Hahaha.
Keren Mikva (28:41.13)
I love the water. I’ve always loved the water and I feel very comfortable in the water. And I think, you know, coming from a water sports instructor job, I thought, great, I can keep doing this. Right, well, of course it’s eligible in every country except for the US. Yeah, US has a different one than the entire rest of the world. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (28:52.31)
You had your boat license already? I know. really? Okay. Well that’s because you know. Yeah go ahead.
Keren Mikva (29:07.808)
Well, I think that’s how I got hired. As I said, I had, you water sports instructing experience. but, yeah, I mean, I fell in love with it. We, we all camped out in the Arroyo of the Boathouse and I loved living in a tent and communally living with all the, all the other guides and, Northern New Mexico is just this weird, gorgeous, like section of New Mexico that doesn’t fit with the rest of the state, but it’s awesome.
And then…
Jason Elkins (29:37.866)
What river, what river were you on? Okay, I get you probably said that, but okay, I’m just trying to look at the geography, but yeah, that makes sense. Okay.
Keren Mikva (29:40.202)
on the Rio Grande.
Keren Mikva (29:47.253)
Yeah, so just like an hour and half from the Colorado border, where there’s actually water because it does run out further south. But I I definitely took the job as just, great, this can be like another adventure and then kind of fell in love with the river through that job.
Jason Elkins (29:55.052)
Well, yes.
Jason Elkins (30:05.74)
All right, Rick, do you still spend time on the river up in Bozeman, over on the Yellowstone or Madison? It’s probably not as exciting as the river and I’m not sure, but.
Keren Mikva (30:11.018)
I do as much as I can.
Yeah, you know, I am a little busy in the summers these days, but whenever I have the chance, definitely get out on the river as much as possible.
Jason Elkins (30:19.712)
Yeah, that’s true. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (30:25.652)
So what happened after New Mexico rafting and guiding?
Keren Mikva (30:30.572)
I actually was like, okay, I’m hooked. I want to keep raft guiding. So I went down to Argentina for a season to raft guide down there. think I maybe ended up working for like a month and then it’s like, well, I’m not making much money anyway. I might as well just go travel. So then traveled for like four months. And a little bit of a river back.
Jason Elkins (30:51.116)
All right, now let’s do the check in with your parents right now. You’re in Argentina doing this. So what’s going on with the relationship with the parents and are they still being supportive or pretending they’re supportive? What do you think was going on?
Keren Mikva (30:56.711)
yeah.
Keren Mikva (31:05.098)
Yeah, you know, they came out and visited me my rookie season in New Mexico and I took them down the river, which was definitely very intimidating because there’s a theory that, you know, if you haven’t ever flipped a boat, you’ll flip your parents. That’s the rule of the river. So I was terrified. I was going to flip my parents in a rapid, but they survived. We didn’t flip. And I think.
Jason Elkins (31:11.852)
Yeah, that helps.
Jason Elkins (31:22.988)
Ha
Keren Mikva (31:32.907)
That kind of helped them put into perspective, okay, like this is a real job. She hasn’t asked us for money, so this is all good. And yeah, and this is a pretty incredible office. Like I took them down the Rio Chama, which is a tributary of the Rio Grande, and it’s just absolutely breathtaking. So I think getting to show them that, they’re like, okay, I get it. This makes sense.
Jason Elkins (31:41.365)
That part helps, that’s a big part of your parents supporting you. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (32:01.034)
So then what all did you, you said Argentina, month into it, you kind of realized I’m not making any money anyway, I might as well go look around a little bit. Where all’d you go in those four months? Mm-hmm.
Keren Mikva (32:10.54)
Yeah, I primarily was, I spent most of it in Patagonia on the Argentinian and the Chilean side. Picked up a couple like work away gigs where you volunteer for room and board. So you kind of just poke around. So I hitchhiked kind of the whole Southern area. What I learned was if you try to get picked up by mothers, they’re always really concerned for you. And then they lecture you on the dangers of hitchhiking.
but then you feel safe because…
Jason Elkins (32:41.484)
You get a ride. You get a ride, they’re probably going to take care of you. They’re not going to drop you off at some dirt road intersection somewhere. They’re going to take you all the way into town, aren’t they? Yeah.
Keren Mikva (32:46.601)
Exactly.
Keren Mikva (32:50.676)
Exactly. And my Spanish, I was working on my Spanish at the time and I realized that my fluency level was usually equal to like their young children. So I could have like a great conversation with like a five year old and be like, what’s your favorite color? Mine’s green. And we’d get along great in the back seat.
Jason Elkins (33:07.476)
so-called do and when mom’s lecturing you you can almost legitimately just
No puedo entender. Like nada. Puedo aprender aproximadamente diez por ciento. It’s just like I can extend, I can understand about ten percent. That’s the extent of my Spanish right there is I’m just really good at explaining to people how poorly I’m understanding what they’re saying to me. That’s the most important thing to know. Is how do you tell people you don’t know what they’re talking about so they will either slow down or the worst part is when you have two or three people trying to speak to you because I spent a lot of time in South and Latin America.
Keren Mikva (33:14.89)
Yeah, exactly.
Keren Mikva (33:29.984)
Honestly, that’s pretty important.
Jason Elkins (33:43.346)
city right now and you you ask one person for directions and then if anybody overhears you asking for directions they all want to chime in and they’ve all got a different route and they all have to talk at the same time and I’m like I have a really hard time understanding one person you get three Mexicans talking to me really fast about yeah it’s a challenge so did you had you learned any Spanish before that trip or you just learned it on that
Keren Mikva (34:03.884)
Totally.
Keren Mikva (34:08.972)
Yeah, I had, you know, four years of high school Spanish that was years old at that point. And I mean, everyone was so I just was amazed at how patient people were to let me try to sound out, you know, the most basic sentence and, you know, understanding when I did everything in present tense because I couldn’t conjugate.
Jason Elkins (34:12.332)
And it got you prepared to talk to five-year-olds.
Jason Elkins (34:31.82)
Did you get I’m curious because I’m at the point right now where I am conjugating
but not correctly. I just know that there’s a few different versions of the word, ser. So I just, just to change things up every once in a while, I’ll throw in some sort of conjugation. I don’t know if it’s past tense, present tense, past, know, eventually you’re right. And they at least, in my mind, I think that they’ll think that it’s cool that I know the past tense of ser, even if I’m using it for future tense, they’re like, oh, well, at least he knows another word. And the more you try, the more…
Keren Mikva (34:41.214)
Exactly.
Keren Mikva (34:51.756)
Okay, but eventually you’ll be right.
Keren Mikva (35:04.918)
He’s crying. Exactly.
Jason Elkins (35:08.526)
patient they are and the more they want to help you so yeah as you as you learned
Keren Mikva (35:11.564)
Exactly. Yeah, I got decently fluent. I was down there for I think five months altogether. And so I got pretty fluent by the end. I could do a great safety talk in Spanish because I had to do my boat safety talks. And then I could talk very specifically about the flora and fauna of the Rio A12. As soon as somebody wanted to go past that, I was like, oh, let’s bring it back to the rocks.
Jason Elkins (35:36.524)
Did you so presumably then what I hear you saying is you had clients that were Spanish only speakers or Spanish
Keren Mikva (35:44.107)
Yeah, so the valley that I worked in was primarily all Spanish speaking. They had very few English speaking tourists. And when there were, there was maybe a dozen or so companies in this valley. It was called Valle Grande, about three hours south of Mendoza. My nickname, of course, was La Gringa. And so if any company had an English speaking client, they would drive over to the company I was working for and pick me up and I’d go over to their company and run that trip for them in English.
Jason Elkins (36:12.313)
okay, interesting.
Keren Mikva (36:12.94)
So I got the occasionally guide in English, but it was primarily Spanish speaking customers.
Jason Elkins (36:17.516)
I suspect actually, I don’t know, I’m curious. Did you feel nervous about, because it’s one thing when you’re giving your briefing that you’ve rehearsed a bunch of times, or pointing out an eagle or something like that, a condor or whatever. But did you ever worry, there’s moments sometimes when you’re in a boat where you really need to get people’s attention quickly, in my limited experience.
Or it’s just like, you know, just something as simple as somebody stands up for some reason to take a picture of something and then you’re like, you got them, you need them to sit down quick. But I’ve noticed with my Spanish, the more of a rush, the more I feel like I need to say it quickly, the quicker the words just leave my head. Did you have that experience? Or did you worry about that? did, you know? I’m just curious. Okay.
Keren Mikva (36:52.64)
Mm-hmm.
Keren Mikva (37:06.152)
Luckily it was a class two river, so it was like low consequence. But my go-to was whenever something was about to happen that I wasn’t quite ready for it to say, piso, which means floor. And then they would just, you know, it basically, they get down. And so you say, al piso, and everybody kind of ducks in and you’re like, okay, if we hit the wall, you’ll be fine.
Jason Elkins (37:20.832)
Hit the floor.
Jason Elkins (37:26.688)
That’s pretty good. you got one, yeah, that’s probably, and that was part of the briefing was, yeah, that.
Keren Mikva (37:28.64)
You have have like a go-to and then even if you’re panicked, you still remember Al Piso. I did occasionally mix up forward and back paddle, so that was an issue once or twice, but you know, we live and we learn.
Jason Elkins (37:34.294)
Yeah, okay, that makes a lot of sense.
Jason Elkins (37:40.332)
yeah because because yeah I could sometimes even like I know left and right in Spanish but I get in a taxi and he’s pulling up to an intersection asked me which way to go real quick and I’m you know they’re simple words but you know when you’re on the spot it’s like you know yeah that’s that’s tough did you
Keren Mikva (37:57.45)
Yeah.
Keren Mikva (38:02.826)
I definitely did call an Adelante straight into a wall, but, you know, I’ll be so.
Jason Elkins (38:08.172)
Uh huh. Yeah, that’s very cool. Whether it’s in Argentina, in Patagonia, or when you’re in New Mexico and we haven’t even got to what’s next. I don’t know if you were doing river rafting after that or river guiding, but.
Keren Mikva (38:14.442)
you
Jason Elkins (38:26.164)
I know you have some stories, just weird. I shouldn’t say weird things because if you don’t know, don’t know. So it’s first time and someone’s been in a boat. give our listeners just, what are those questions that you should not ask your river guide unless you want to be embarrassed? I know you’ve heard some. Or other stuff.
Keren Mikva (38:40.172)
my favorite was, do we finish where we start? That’s always my favorite. Yeah, but it came up like once a week and you’re like, I’ve never seen a circular river, have you? I don’t think we’re gonna finish where we start. I’d be surprised. The other, especially working on the Rio Grande was which side of the river is Mexico? And like I said, we were an hour and a half from the Colorado border.
Jason Elkins (38:44.98)
Yeah, yeah, that’s the I knew you were gonna say that one
Jason Elkins (38:58.453)
It’s.
Jason Elkins (39:04.14)
yeah, okay.
Keren Mikva (39:09.994)
We were a ways.
Jason Elkins (39:10.92)
huh. Yeah. Did you get the, is this fresh water or salt water? Did you remember ever hearing that one? That was when I used to hear it
Keren Mikva (39:18.54)
We got those, it was always questions about animals, then you come up with all of the legends of the freshwater caiman that live in the Rio Grande. They’re only attracted to the color red and yellow, which of course were the colors of our PFDs. Yep, exactly. You can’t help but have a little bit of fun.
Jason Elkins (39:28.544)
You
of all the life jackets, yeah, yeah.
You know, I remember…
Yes, and the funny thing is, I think that people should always lean towards honesty, but I’ve heard some guides say some really weird stuff. And one that I recall is I was in the Bob Marshall in Montana, the Bob Marshall Wilderness Area, and we were on horses and one of the guests, I was leading a group, but I wasn’t guiding there, I just happened to be kind of like the trip leader, but we had guides that knew the area or…
Presumably should have known the area and I remember one of the clients had asked the guy like which mountain range is this over here I don’t remember what he said, but I knew it wasn’t I it was like I Think he mentioned a mountain range that I was familiar with in southern Montana. I was like, yeah It just but he said it was so much confidence and the clients like okay cool So I think
Keren Mikva (40:26.608)
Nice new-out guide is you never have, ideally, your clients don’t have service. They can’t necessarily fact check you. It’s always great. My goal was I never wanted to to lie or to make anybody feel stupid, but I love a joke. So I would start a story and then it would get progressively more and more ridiculous until hopefully they caught on and they knew I was messing with them. And then if they didn’t catch on, I would have to find a way out of it.
Jason Elkins (40:33.772)
yeah.
Jason Elkins (40:47.744)
Somebody.
Jason Elkins (40:54.283)
You know, I was, yeah, I had a hot air balloon ride business in Arizona for a while. We used to go out in the desert and I had some clients in my vehicle and we’re driving out there and we went by what they call a solar farm. I’m sure you know what a solar farm is. I’m sure most of our listeners do, but it’s basically where they just have a bunch of solar panels out in the desert and making energy. And we drove by this solar farm and this…
Lady kind of asked about, what is that? And I said, that’s a solar farm. What they do is they raise them out here. And then when they get big enough, they harvest them and put them on the roofs in town in Phoenix. And she’s like, OK. And I felt horrible because I like, I thought for sure she would realize I was just joking. But she didn’t seem to notice that I was joking. And then I felt bad because I didn’t know where to go with it. So I just like, change the subject. But yeah.
Keren Mikva (41:39.88)
I’m pretty sick. Like, what’d have for breakfast? Just anyway out of it.
Jason Elkins (41:45.268)
Yeah, it’s it’s yeah, yeah, exactly. So it’s it is a lot of fun. All right, so walk us from you got out of South. I shouldn’t say got out of South America. That sounds weird, but you left South America. I’m sure heartbroken that you had to leave. But what happened then?
Keren Mikva (41:59.436)
Yeah, while I was down there, I interviewed for a position with Backroads. They’re an adventure travel company. And I ended up getting that position. So a couple of months later, I started working for them. So I led hiking, biking, multi-adventure tours for them kind of all over the world for, I I ended up in total doing six seasons with them. So that was a big chunk of my guiding career. And I got the chance to, I first worked in Croatia.
Czech Republic and Austria, they came back stateside and worked Yellowstone and Tetons, New Mexico, Kentucky, Bourbon Trail biking tours, and then back to New Zealand for a winter season, guiding in the South Island for them.
Jason Elkins (42:38.236)
Ooh, okay.
Jason Elkins (42:47.02)
Nice. Did you have a preference for working outside of the US, working internationally or in the US? I’m trying not to ask you where your favorite place is, because that’s always a tough question for most people like us. But I kind of want to ask it, but I’m trying to ask it in different way. you know, what are like, maybe what was the most challenging place that you worked or what was the most enjoyable that you wish you could have stayed longer?
Keren Mikva (42:58.572)
totally.
Keren Mikva (43:08.596)
Yeah, well, so when I first started working for them, can, you you put your preferences of where you want to go, and then they kind of ignore it and send you wherever they want. So I said, I want to work the national parks in the US. And so they said, great, you’re going to Croatia on Monday. And Croatia is an absolutely beautiful country, and it was a stunning trip. And it was the most logistically challenging, most complex.
operations from the guide side, so I was like, please, please let me come back to the U.S. and run trips where we don’t have to take six ferries on every single week-long excursion. So I fell in love with the Tetons when I was working for Backroads.
I ended up living in Jackson for a long time after that. And yeah, something about the Tetons just kind of got my heart. So I got to lead some camping trips also in Yellowstone and Tetons, and those are my favorite to lead. They were a little bit more relaxed. know, I think to me, it’s just easier to talk to somebody when you’re sitting around a campfire than when you’re at, you know, a…
Jason Elkins (44:14.081)
Yeah.
Keren Mikva (44:15.499)
table in a restaurant. I just think people open up more and I mean obviously it’s why I do what I do. I think that’s like that’s my happy place. So I loved working those camping trips for them. And then very close second is getting the chance to go back to New Zealand. So because I had already expired all my working visas but I got another little uh
door opening through running those trips in the South Islands. We were based in Wanaka for those. So the growing up Queenstown is what we called it. Those were, I led both hiking and biking tours in the South Island.
Jason Elkins (44:43.948)
yeah.
What kind of trips were you doing in New Zealand?
Jason Elkins (44:57.644)
And were most of the tours, it sounded like most of the tours you were doing were multi-day tours. I mean, I think that’s mostly what Backroads would be doing, Okay, so you’ve got a group of guests for a week.
Keren Mikva (45:04.883)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. when we, in Europe and the States, yeah, most of the trips are a week. The New Zealand trips are, you the ones that were farther away were usually longer. So I think those were 10 days or so. Just because, you know, if you’ve got a full day of travel on either end, should make it worth it. But yeah, you get to know folks really well over the course of that.
Jason Elkins (45:26.636)
Yes, you do. What’s there might be people listening to this that have never been part of a group trip and they have probably some stories in their head about well don’t want to get stuck with somebody who’s a noxious annoying or I don’t want to or I don’t want to be the obnoxious annoying one or usually the people that most people don’t say they don’t want to be because if they are they don’t know it and whatever but what would you say to somebody that has never been on a group trip and is
thinking about it. I’ll leave that pretty open-ended.
Keren Mikva (46:00.268)
That’s a great question. I think researching the company and really deciding what type of experience you want, some companies are much more luxurious, some are much more rustic, so kind of where on that spectrum you wanna be. And I think when you decide that, you kind of will start to self-select who’s gonna be on that type of adventure. I also say a lot of companies will…
division their types of trips to kind of, again, help participants self-select. So when I worked for Backroads, they had, you know, family trips or couples trips or I think now they run trips specifically for like 30s and 40s, et cetera. So finding ways to kind of partition to hopefully find your people, especially if you’re traveling solo in a group travel. I think that’s the important part is hoping to find your people that way.
Jason Elkins (46:56.97)
Yeah, solo and group trail. And I’m sure, I suspect you’ve had the experience where people just totally lied during the intake process and ended up on a trip that, and I’m just curious if you had that come up where you like had the opportunity to dig a little deeper and figure out why would somebody lie about this stuff, or maybe it just never happened for you. I’m just curious, like.
What are the misconceptions of people? Like when they talk to the, I’m gonna say a salesperson, let’s call it travel ranger, whatever it is, right? When they talk to that person the first time, they’re afraid to admit some things or like why do people lie and find themselves on the wrong trip?
Keren Mikva (47:23.275)
Mm-hmm.
Keren Mikva (47:34.828)
Yeah, think part of it, no, that’s fine. I think part of it, you know, there’s a couple different reasons. Maybe it’s they’re part of a couple or a family and the other folks are really into this activity. know, for backroads, it was biking trips. And so maybe one half of a couple is a huge biker and the other goes to spin class. And those are very different things. But wanting to support that way, or it’s a…
Jason Elkins (47:35.808)
I didn’t plan that question. just, I don’t know. I’m just curious.
Keren Mikva (48:00.83)
Yeah, I used to bike. It should be fine. But used to bike was I pedaled around the neighborhood when I was 10, not I consistently bike 40 miles a day for a week. So I think those are probably bits and pieces of it. And then one other thing, I’ve led a lot in high altitude environments. And folks coming from low altitude don’t always know how it’s going to impact them.
Jason Elkins (48:10.732)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (48:25.92)
And they don’t listen to that. You can tell them arrive in Quito a few days early before you get, you know, go up in the mountains and, no, I’m good.
Keren Mikva (48:35.409)
Exactly. It’s just the air is thinner, you need more water, the sun is stronger and walking up a flight of steps is going to wind you. So coming on an active travel trip from there can definitely be challenging.
Jason Elkins (48:50.892)
How do you guys do the, I don’t know if onboarding is the right term or just the process with Alpengirl because like we discussed earlier, you’ve got people coming from a wide variety of backgrounds, climates, stuff like that. Is it a video call onboarding or how do you guys handle that to try and make sure that you end up with the right people in the right place at the right time?
Keren Mikva (49:13.935)
Yeah, so we talk to every single new camper family before they apply. And so part of that is to answer questions, share more about our program. But really we want to make sure that we’re matching campers to the right program. If they’re experienced hikers, they’re not going to have a ton of fun on our introductory level trip. So we want to make sure that they’re going somewhere appropriate that’s going to challenge them and push them outside their comfort zone.
So we ask for like a 10 or 15 minute conversation with every family before they applied. We also ask for references for new campers, like any non-family members, teachers, coaches, family, friends. Because, know, vast majority of parents are honest and, you know, straightforward about their kids.
Jason Elkins (50:01.484)
Sure they are.
Keren Mikva (50:04.393)
Parents love their kids and sometimes we have rose colored glasses. So we ask for just an outsider to also say that the kid, that their kids are, you
Jason Elkins (50:06.444)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (50:12.076)
Well, and also, yeah, and also if the parents have a really strong desire to go on their own vacation in the summer and send the kids off to camp.
Keren Mikva (50:21.003)
That’s the huge one. The very first question we ask is, you know, is your child involved in the process? Have they seen the website? Are they excited about this trip? We are a camp for campers who want to come on an adventure with us. This is not daycare while you go on your vacation.
Jason Elkins (50:28.79)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (50:38.282)
So the kid is the kid on the call then is that like a requirement. OK.
Keren Mikva (50:41.107)
Not on the first call, we try to do touchstones with the campers closer to summer. But that first call is just with families to usually answer all of the safety and logistics questions and then try to suss out if they’re involved.
Jason Elkins (50:50.476)
Okay. So what I, yeah. So what I hear you saying is you don’t see the kids until, see could be on video when you get to that process, but you don’t engage or interact with the kids until they’ve already been approved and mom and dad have paid the deposit.
Keren Mikva (51:10.803)
Yeah, so a lot of campers, know, unless they have extra questions, we don’t really meet them until they show up at camp on day one. We’ve got all their paperwork.
Jason Elkins (51:18.156)
I’m gonna ask you a tough question. Right? I’m gonna ask you a tough question. You might ask me to edit this out later, but I’ll give you a chance to answer it. Because I recognize, you know, these are your clients. These are people you work with. These are these young ladies and these women that you get to share these amazing experiences with. And now I can’t remember where it is. We added out because I can’t remember what the question was. But I guess the question is like, okay, you haven’t met the kids at all.
Keren Mikva (51:40.511)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (51:46.508)
Kids are tough. Kids are really tough. I don’t know, in my world, maybe not in the camp world, but I’ve had kids. I was a kid once. I remember school. You get kind of meanness sometimes, a little bit of bullying, little bit of, you know, you’ve got 10 campers and you got one that’s just consistently left out for some reason. How do you?
deal with that? How do you prepare for that? Does that happen? If I’m a parent with a child that maybe has some special needs as far as, you know, social interactions, stuff like that, like, what do you, how do you manage all that? Because I think that would be kind of hard.
Keren Mikva (52:21.899)
Definitely. I mean, it’s a huge part of our staff training. We have a three-step behavior report process where if we have a camper who’s starting to bully or not listen or is starting to make risky choices that can put themselves or the rest of the group in danger. Or if somebody is extremely homesick, somebody who’s crying every day, it’s also, it’s hard to be happy and have fun when the person next to you really doesn’t want to be there. So we have a pretty robust behavior process.
process that as soon as those start, our guides are in contact with camp leadership. Once it gets to the second stage, we’re in contact with the parents, we’re looping them in, and then we do send campers home. We have an essential eligibility contract that our campers sign before they come to a session.
And it says, you know, I’m going to be a positive influence in the group. I’m going to participate in group activities. I’m going to be a team player, be flexible and, you know, work with the diverse physical abilities and desires of 12 different people. And if they aren’t abiding by the contract, then we have the right to send them home. And so.
Jason Elkins (53:27.98)
Are people surprised? mean, do you find that when you when you get to that point, that unfortunate point where someone needs to go home, do you find that they’re usually surprised or is it kind of like, thank goodness, I didn’t really want to be here anyway. So yeah, get me out of here. What’s your experience been?
Keren Mikva (53:47.463)
So I should also mention this is very rare. think at most we send one to two campers home for behavior in summer. We sent zero home last summer. We were very proud. We had a great batch of campers last year.
Jason Elkins (53:51.722)
I suspect, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, nice.
Keren Mikva (54:01.395)
You know, our goal is that it’s never a surprise. That’s why we have like a multi-step process. So we’re working with them through every step. You know, we’re setting goals at every level. So these are the goals that we’re working for. And if we’re not meeting those goals, then we’re going to have to move to the next step. And here’s what’s going to happen in the next step. So, you know, really laying out the whole path forward. So there are no surprises. And that’s why we loop in the parents super early also. So we’re not calling them and saying, I need you to book a flight.
the next 20 minutes, we’ve been walking alongside them for the whole process.
Jason Elkins (54:34.464)
What is your goal, overall goal, and I told you I wouldn’t, there’s no trick questions on this, are no planned questions anyway, but what’s kind of your goal for the girls that come to camp? I’m sure I could go on your website and read, this is our vision, da da da da da, I don’t need a verbatim, but what are you, what do you really hope that these girls are gonna accomplish when they go?
Keren Mikva (54:55.496)
You know, there’s a couple levels of that. think a very high level, we want to help develop the next generation of badass women who want to play outside. And that’s really at the core of what we do. And then beyond that, you know, we’re kind of…
Jason Elkins (55:06.655)
Yeah, I love it.
Keren Mikva (55:13.034)
positioned in that bridge between a traditional summer camp and a more extreme outdoor adventure program. And so we really want them to take away some outdoor skills. We want them to know how to set up a tent, how to cook outside, how to feel confident on trail. And then we also just really want them to have fun. We have a lot of campy elements in our program. I am very pro glitter. I have a line item in my annual budget that is glitter. We have dance parties, we play a lot of games, we’ll do friendship bracelets.
Jason Elkins (55:30.582)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (55:36.193)
Yeah?
Keren Mikva (55:42.961)
those can’t be elements. And I think, you we really want to make the outdoors feel more accessible and more inviting. And you don’t have to be a hard-o and some at every peak. You can just have a good time doing it. And that’s like just as admirable and fantastic a goal as setting the fastest known time up the Grand Teton
Jason Elkins (55:54.101)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (56:05.036)
Yeah, no, it’s super, super cool. And I also, I do want to ask you this because there are organizations out there that what they propose to do is we take your troubled child and bring them out and expose them to the wilderness and basically straighten, I’m just making up words, straighten them out, you know, get them sorted out, get them through their.
Withdrawals or their whatever is going on in their world and then we’re gonna send it back. Hopefully a functioning member of society I don’t hear that in your voice anywhere attached to helping girl But I think it’s worth asking because if people are listening to this I want them to understand is this that type of place or not?
Keren Mikva (56:40.371)
No. You’re not.
Keren Mikva (56:45.972)
Totally, we are not a wilderness therapy program. So that’s also part of, in those conversations that we’re having with new families, making sure that they understand who we are and what type of camper really flourishes in our program. We make it very clear our guides have wilderness first aid and first responder certifications, are not. Mental health counselors have no training in those areas. And so we’re limited in our ability to accommodate those types of situations.
Jason Elkins (57:15.628)
Real quick question and then I’m gonna ask you what I forgot. But before I ask you what I forgot to ask, your guides on staff. If I were to poll them a secret ballot or just sitting there having a beer, a glass of wine with them and I said, do you prefer to work with the young girls or the adult ladies? Is there a consensus? What kind of answers do think I would get?
Keren Mikva (57:42.603)
I think the vast, vast majority of our guides come to us because they love working with youth. So they are so excited to work with the campers. And I remember having a mid-season check-in with one of my guides last summer who was running our mother-daughter programs. And she was like, it’s incredible. And I love the experience. And I’m also terrified every minute of every day because I feel like I’m being watched. And I said, yes, you are being watched.
Jason Elkins (58:05.298)
that’s true.
Keren Mikva (58:09.61)
The moms are more absorbent than their kids.
Jason Elkins (58:13.652)
Ooh, yeah, actually, actually, it’s really hard to because you know, when I was a river guide, I was doing the fly fishing guide. We’d get groups and sometimes we’d have kids and their parents. Dad didn’t care if their kid was hanging off the front of the drift boat or whatever, going through the waves, you know, that dad didn’t care. But mom was sometimes it was her first time on the river on the drift boat or whatever. And yeah, there was kind of like, you know, you’re like, and you just felt like, man, boy, what am I going to do now? Because you feel like you kind of have to parent the kid. And this was a totally different thing. This is just day trips.
Keren Mikva (58:31.178)
Thank
Jason Elkins (58:43.498)
with no real, you guys are focused on the young girls. That’s very cool. Keren, we’ve discussed so many things and I want to be respectful of your time and listeners. But I really want to ask you, is there anything I forgot to ask, anything you wish I would have asked or anything else that you want to make sure that we get out there before we wrap up?
Keren Mikva (58:43.794)
Mm-hmm.
Keren Mikva (59:04.086)
I think the only thing I’d mention is, you know, I think Alpen Girl’s journey of like the different programs that we’ve started offering over the last couple years really kind of mimics some of like my own journeys of leading family trips and then seeing that connection of
the whole families and specifically moms and daughters getting the chance to experience the outdoors together and then, you know, having those realizations that so many adults haven’t been introduced to the outdoors and want kind of the safety net of, you know, program that does all the planning and has all the gear and all you have to do is show up and follow along.
Jason Elkins (59:48.364)
so they don’t end up in the dorm room watching movies during spring break because nobody remembered that we needed to get a permit or reservation.
Keren Mikva (59:51.335)
Exactly.
Right, on their Yosemite campaign. Exactly. And so I think just making those types of programs accessible for women of all ages has been such a special part of Album Girl’s journey, and I’ve been really excited to help design and think up and imagine what all these new trips and programs can look like.
Jason Elkins (01:00:21.43)
Keren, I really, really appreciate you coming and I will share with our listeners because you know, they’re probably listening to this and instead of watching it, I’ve had the pleasure of watching your face the entire conversation and everything you’re saying, it just comes across as so authentic and energized. Like I can see the joy in your face and I can see how much you sure seem to enjoy what you do and I have no reason to believe you don’t. And it’s just, it’s energizing. So yeah.
We’re going to have a link to the website in the show notes. So anybody that’s listening to this, it feels that connection with Keren and what she’s doing and wants to learn more, click on the click on the link or the website. When you book your call with them, just tell them this is not an ad because I were just doing this, but it makes me feel good. If you tell Keren’s team, hey, I heard Keren on the podcast or whatever. And then next time I chat with her, she’s like, yeah, a few, few people. changed some lives and people came out there. They sent their daughters out because they, you
they heard us on the podcast it just makes my heart feel warm so please do that. Keren thank you this was so much fun let’s do it again sometime
Keren Mikva (01:01:26.388)
Absolutely, thanks so much Jason.
Jason Elkins (01:01:28.588)
All right, we’ll chat with you real soon. Bye bye.
Jason Elkins (01:01:35.67)
told you not.
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