Guest Bio
Lindsay Nieminen is the co-founder and owner of Amman Food Tours, a culinary experience company based in Jordan’s capital, and the travel writer behind the blog Carpe Diem OUR Way. She has been exploring and documenting Jordan since 2016. After repeatedly returning to the same local cafés, bakeries, and family-run restaurants in Amman, she began envisioning a way for visitors to experience the city through its food and the people who make it. That vision became reality in 2022 when she and her Jordanian partner launched Amman Food Tours, creating immersive culinary experiences that introduce travelers to the stories and traditions behind Jordanian cuisine.
Through her work, Lindsay focuses on fostering meaningful cultural exchange while supporting greater opportunities for women within Jordan’s tourism industry. Her partnership with local guide Jumana helps bring this mission to life, giving guests an authentic look at Amman’s vibrant food culture while amplifying voices that are often underrepresented in the sector.
Show Summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Lindsay about her journey from a traditional corporate career into the world of travel writing and tourism entrepreneurship in Jordan. What began as a passion for exploring local restaurants and sharing stories online eventually evolved into building a food tour company dedicated to connecting travelers with the culture and communities of Amman.
Lindsay reflects on how travel reshaped her personal and professional life, opening the door to new opportunities and relationships while inspiring her to create experiences that go beyond typical sightseeing. She also shares the personal stories behind launching Amman Food Tours and the lessons she learned while building a business in a foreign country.
The conversation also explores the broader cultural context of travel in Jordan, including gender dynamics within the tourism industry, how local communities navigate global and regional challenges, and what travelers should know about visiting the Middle East today. Through food, storytelling, and community partnerships, Lindsay’s work highlights the powerful role travel can play in fostering connection and understanding.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Building relationships with local communities can transform travel experiences into meaningful cultural exchanges.
- ✓ Food tours offer travelers a powerful gateway into understanding everyday life and traditions.
- ✓ Transitioning from corporate life to entrepreneurship often begins with a passion that grows over time.
- ✓ Travel can significantly influence personal growth, perspective, and career direction.
- ✓ Women are playing an increasingly important role in Jordan’s evolving tourism industry.
- ✓ Partnerships with local guides help create more authentic and community-centered travel experiences.
- ✓ Jordan remains a welcoming destination despite regional geopolitical tensions.
- ✓ Storytelling is a key element in connecting visitors to the culture behind the food they experience.
- ✓ Resilient local businesses continue to adapt and thrive despite global travel disruptions.
What You’ll Find on Amman Food Tours
- Small-group guided food tours through Amman’s neighborhoods
- Authentic tastings at beloved local restaurants, cafés, and street food spots
- Cultural insights into Jordanian cuisine and culinary traditions
- Stories from local chefs, vendors, and community members
- A focus on supporting women and underrepresented voices in tourism
- Immersive experiences that connect travelers with everyday life in Amman
Learn more about Amman Food Tours and connect with Lindsay at:
https://ammanfoodtours.com
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Jason Elkins (00:01.015)
Welcome back everybody to another episode at the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. So happy to have each and every one of you back today and super excited to have my guest. We’ve got Lindsay Nieminen. She’s the owner of Amman Food Tours. Lindsay, welcome to the show.
Lindsay Nieminen (00:17.164)
Hello Jason, thanks for having me.
Jason Elkins (00:19.459)
I’m so excited to have you on. had a conversation recently. The world has changed a little bit since our first conversation. We’re going to we’ve decided that we’re going to go ahead and just full disclosure. Lindsay, we’re recording this in early March. As I mentioned, you’re with you’re the owner of Amman Food Tours and anybody making the connection as to what was going on in Amman and and other parts nearby parts of the world in early March. We’re just going to acknowledge that. So.
Appreciate you taking time to come on and have a conversation with, we’ll talk a little bit about that, but really wanna dig into your story, figure out how the heck you got from where you were to where you are now. should we, Annie, I don’t wanna put you on the spot and I didn’t intend to do this, but what’s going on in Amman and how’s it impacting your business right now?
Lindsay Nieminen (01:09.406)
Well for most people who don’t understand the Middle East geography I don’t expect anyone to understand the Middle East geography because I didn’t understand it before I went there as someone who lives in Canada we just think of the Middle East as a bit of a you know mesh of War and instability and you know for most of my lifetime there has been something going on over there now Jordan is a teeny tiny little country
It has Israel on one side Iraq on the other and then on the other side of Iraq. We have Iran so with the current issues that are a lot bigger than any Recent issues between Israel and Iran Jordan is right in the middle So despite not getting involved in making it very very cleared that the country has no interest in Joining any issues Rockets do fire
over Jordan in order to get to Israel and vice versa. Jordan does shoot down rockets that enter its territory. So there is some effects for the people and the visitors in Jordan. There is also a US military base there, just like in almost all of the Middle East countries. it’s really, really unfortunate.
right now for the people of this little tiny country that just want peace and stability and they are in a really tough neighborhood.
Jason Elkins (02:38.562)
Yeah, absolutely. It’s maybe a little off topic, but I’m curious. I’m just a curious person. When you say they shoot down rockets that enter their airspace, is that coming from both directions or do they tend to only shoot down the ones that are going east, west or west to east? Do you know?
Lindsay Nieminen (02:55.79)
So from what I know, they are shooting the rockets headed from Iran to Israel. And Jordan and Israel officially have a peace agreement. They get along politically. And so whether or not that’s helping the Israeli air defense or whether or not it’s just…
some air sovereignty issues, that part I’m not sure. I do not believe that they intercept any missiles that would be going in the other direction.
Jason Elkins (03:23.17)
Right.
Jason Elkins (03:30.969)
I won’t hold you to that. Nobody’s, this is not an intel. This is information that is out there. So we’re not sharing any secrets I trust. Anyway, I did speak with someone, actually had someone on the show here early on, probably, you know, almost a couple of years now. And he was explaining to me how Jordan is actually kind of the peaceful spot.
Like what historically has been the spot, you know, that maybe people from the U S or Canada maybe have issues or concerns about going to the middle East, but he was like, no, Jordan’s the one place to go. It’s we’ve got all kinds of cool stuff going on and, and it’s, it’s historically been very safe and all that. And I suspect that’s been your experience as well.
Lindsay Nieminen (04:13.474)
Yeah, absolutely. mean, once you get to Jordan, you will recognize the hospitality of the people there. And it is a country built on immigrants. mean, before the 1950s, most of the population of Jordan were Bedouins. And with the mass migration of people leaving Palestine when Israel was created, millions came to Jordan at that time, and they were given citizenship.
In the more recent decades, millions of refugees are housed in Jordan, whether they be Syrian. There’s a really interesting mural in Amman, and it shows 10 faces of people of all different backgrounds, showing how diverse the people of Jordan really are. They’re very welcoming to people fleeing violence, and they’re very proud of that hospitality that they provide.
Jason Elkins (05:11.288)
What’s very cool. And I see the connection now because now we’re we’re going to touch on your business a little bit, which is in my opinion, very much a culturally connecting and hospitality type of thing. I’m on food tours, obvious from the name. I’m still going to ask you to share with our listeners the 30 to 60 second elevator pitch on a Mon tour on a Mon food tours. And then we’re going to go back and figure out how how it got there. So what do want people to know about it right off the bat?
Lindsay Nieminen (05:41.006)
Absolutely. So one of the things I’m most proud of is that we are female owned and we employ local female guides. Women are definitely underrepresented in tourism and in the workforce in general. So I’m very proud to be able to provide meaningful employment for these women. And you’re going to get a very different experience spending three hours with a local woman in her town than you may get with a local man from Amman.
Jason Elkins (06:09.236)
Okay, two questions. First, when you said women are underrepresented in tourism, were you speaking specifically about Jordan, the Middle East, the world as a whole? What was your intention of saying that? Help me understand.
Lindsay Nieminen (06:28.206)
So specifically for Jordan, culturally women leave the workforce when they get married and have kids. There’s still a strong cultural understanding that the men are going to be the breadwinners. They’re going to make the money. The women are going to stay home and take care of the kids. And I think that kind of speaks to our old ways of thinking.
There’s still a large proportion of people who want to live like that, but then there’s also these inflationary pressures that not all families are able to provide on a single income. Same as the Western world, know. In my grandparents’ generation, maybe that was possible, but currently, you know, you need a dual income family. So that’s happening in Jordan as well. Also, some women want to work, and some men are very happy to have their wives go to work.
They have multi-generational families where grandparents are able to take care of the kids. But that doesn’t mean that Jordan has an equal pay for equal work type of system set up for women. So they are paid less than men at this point.
Jason Elkins (07:43.705)
Okay. Do men want to work in tourism in Jordan? Is there a, is there like, no, that’s fine. The women can go do this because I don’t want to do it anyway. I don’t want to sound whatever. I’m just going to say what I say and I sound however I sound. But the question is, is that like, that’s a pretty good job for a woman to go do because it’s relative. I don’t know if it’s safe. I don’t know. But what are your thoughts on that? Or are men feeling like, these women should be doing something else because traditionally
Tourism is a guy’s job or is there any of that at all? Am I just making stuff up?
Lindsay Nieminen (08:18.958)
I think the biggest issue is much bigger than tourism. Jordan has a very high unemployment rate. I believe it’s somewhere between 15 and 17 percent. And as a Westerner going there, the type of people that you come across in the service industry are very different than what you see in many Western countries. For example, your cashiers in Jordan are typically men.
The people packing the bag are typically men. The people cleaning your hotel rooms are typically men. And with this high unemployment, I mean, there are men and women out there that are looking for work. So there’s some incredible tour guides in Jordan, but most of them are men. Tourism is a great job for people and tour guiding in general.
But it’s really hard to get into for women because of the cultural nuances of why do you want to work or you’re going to leave the workforce as soon as you get married. We don’t want to train you. The Ministry of Tourism has a long process to get licensed as a national tour guide. And I believe that it is biased towards men because they don’t want to train women who may leave the workforce a few years later.
Jason Elkins (09:38.805)
Interesting. So what I kind of hear you saying is if a man and a woman apply for the same job, probably across quite a few different industries, it sounds like it’s there’s a little bit of a, well, we should hire the guy one because he’ll probably stick around longer because.
or two, well he’s a guy so he has a family to support and that’s his job is to go to work and support his family so regardless, you know, so there’s probably a little bit of a leaning towards feeling like they should give the job to the guy. Does that sound about right? Okay.
Lindsay Nieminen (10:10.306)
Absolutely. No, you are not wrong. And I mean, I’m happy to give an example of Jumana, who is one of our local guides. She is 42 years old. And when she applies to the Ministry of Tourism for a national guiding license, which would mean she could go into all of the historical sites, she could be on a bus with multi-day tours, they say, you’re 42 years old. Why do you want to work?
You know, typically Jordan has a very young retirement age and I believe for women it was either 45 or 50 years old. So they just think she’s on the end of her working life. So they don’t understand why she would want to get certified for just a few years of work.
Jason Elkins (10:45.74)
Wow.
Jason Elkins (10:56.086)
That’s interesting because it sounds very counterintuitive to what I was thinking because the very next question I was going to ask you, does it change once they’re a little older and they’re not maybe raising a family? They don’t have young babies or they might not, you know, they’ve already gotten married or they just didn’t or whatever. So I was thinking, so if they show up at 40, then that whole objection goes away. But it sounds like it doesn’t really. Then it shifts. So women have a kind of a narrow window to work with, don’t they?
Lindsay Nieminen (11:23.637)
Absolutely.
Jason Elkins (11:23.756)
That’s that’s tough. OK, all right. I understand that. The other question that came up when you were discreet, you you mentioned women, women owned women, guides, women operated. And you said people have a diff will have a different experience with a woman food tour guide or probably. Well, that’s what you were talking about. So help me understand what is the difference? What what would somebody expect the difference to be whether they’re with a guy or a lady leading the tour?
Lindsay Nieminen (11:54.682)
So some of it comes down to traditional practices of women in the kitchen. And so some of the stories that our guides tell talk about watching their grandmothers cook or cooking for their own families where men and boys may just be doing different things. those stories that you’re going to get from women guides may be different than what you’re going to get from a man.
Jason Elkins (12:15.49)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (12:23.904)
if I were to boil down what you just said in my own head to help me get my head around, not that it was hard to get my head around it, was that maybe the women really get to share the making and the preparation and the significance, where maybe the guys get to share the consumption. Because they’ve grew up in a culture where great food was put in front of them, they enjoy eating it, they know what they like. But it is, it’s a different perspective, I get that.
Lindsay Nieminen (12:41.417)
Yeah.
Lindsay Nieminen (12:51.726)
It is absolutely. And I mean, not to say that there aren’t incredible men who are cooking and who are chefs in the country, but it’s…
Jason Elkins (12:56.418)
sure. Yeah.
Lindsay Nieminen (13:01.022)
One of the things that I noticed when I went to Jordan for the first time was where are all the women? And you know after going again and again over the last 10 years I have learned that they are in the homes for the most part. So I think just getting access to a woman for a few hours during your trip if you don’t happen to have a female tour guide is a really special part about visiting Jordan.
Jason Elkins (13:21.512)
Yeah
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because they can share something that the guys just can’t share and it’s part of their culture and that’s great. So if I go to a restaurant and I’m on, am I most likely to see men in the kitchen as well?
Lindsay Nieminen (13:41.046)
You are going to see men waiters, you are going to see men hosts, you are going to see men in the kitchen for sure. You are very unlikely to see women at all unless you come to our market tour and cooking class where we have an incredible female chef and a whole female team in her restaurant.
Jason Elkins (14:02.232)
That’s awesome. We’re going to get back to this. I’m just fascinated. I’m kind of a consider myself a foodie and I just I love the topic and I’m ready to go to Amman right now. I know there’s a lot of stuff going on but I mean there is are the tourism activities still operating right now? you I don’t know if you’re I mean you obviously know what’s going on there. So tell me about that.
Lindsay Nieminen (14:14.127)
Thank
Lindsay Nieminen (14:28.078)
Yeah, so unfortunately my inbox is full of cancellations this week.
We are currently in Ramadan in the Middle East, which is typically a bit of a quieter time for tourism. But March is getting into high season in Jordan. We have a big hiking culture that it’s just the best time of year weather wise to be in the country. so unfortunately, I’m having cancellations into April already, where people have just decided we’re going to cancel and we’re going to visit somewhere else. So unfortunately for Jordan, it’s not like the tourism
dollars are being delayed. People are actually taking their tourism dollars elsewhere.
Jason Elkins (15:10.294)
Yeah. Is it a choice that these people can make? So the people that are emailing you saying, Hey, we want to cancel our trip. Do they really have a choice? mean, if they said, you know what, we’re, we’re open. We’re just, we’ll go look, you know, or are you trying to convince people? This is a touchy subject, but are you trying to encourage them to reconsider and actually go? Or is it just like, yeah, nobody’s going in and it would be foolish to go. What’s your take on it?
Lindsay Nieminen (15:39.11)
So I definitely default to follow your own country’s travel advice and I personally read Canada, US and the UK, sometimes even Australia just to get a more balanced perspective on what each government is saying. So right now those governments are all saying avoid anything but essential travel to the country. Most airlines unfortunately are cancelled through this week so tourists can’t
even get to Jordan if they wanted to come. I just had an email come across to me today that Intrepid Tours has cancelled all of its tours for the entire month of March. it’s definitely more, unfortunately, stay away for now, but hopefully it’s see you soon and that we can still have some spring visitors.
Jason Elkins (16:20.098)
now.
Jason Elkins (16:33.624)
Let’s touch on insurance your experience with insurance because I suspect maybe some people have insurance that are Reimburseing them because of the State Department warnings and no flights and stuff like that other people maybe didn’t get insurance Or if they do have insurance and they go anyway, and there’s an issue then the insurance isn’t gonna help them I mean what what should people know about I? Never wanted this podcast to be about trip insurance, but let’s spend two minutes
on it.
Lindsay Nieminen (17:04.661)
Yeah, I’m definitely no expert, but from reading dozens and dozens of Facebook forums, not just about Jordan, but I mean about the violence that hit Mexico. I I live in Vancouver, so we have thousands and thousands of people that go to Puerto Vallarta every winter. And there were thousands of Canadians in Mexico when the cartel violence erupted there. Now, I do believe there is an insurance exclusion for acts of war, which basically says, sorry, we’re not going to
pay out, which is silly to me. The whole point of insurance is for a massive disaster. Me personally, we have a no refund policy on our website, but I’m giving people their money back. At this point, they don’t have a choice. They are not able to come unless they bend over backwards to buy new flights and come on Royal Jordanian, which is basically the only airline operating. And I just hope that they do come back in the future and spend their money.
Jason Elkins (17:40.429)
Yeah.
Lindsay Nieminen (18:02.734)
here in Jordan, I did learn actually during COVID when countries were sending rescue flights for stranded citizens all over the world, those flights were not free. They paid a pretty penny to get evacuated back home, but at least there was flights available. From what I understand right now, most countries are not really sending any kind of rescue flights. They’re telling people to get on commercial flights.
all over the Middle East to get out while they can.
Jason Elkins (18:36.588)
Wow, it’s cause just a few weeks ago, again, we’re recording this early March. I’m actually in Mexico right now and I was here during, you know, the, all of the activity in Puerto Vallarta and I don’t know. It’s.
We’re talking about Jordan is a small country. I’m talking about Mexico is a big country because I’ll tell you when this stuff started, you know, my friends, family, specifically my son, I that’s how I heard about it. He was messaging me, Dad, you need to leave Mexico like right now. And you need he said, I think you should go to Colombia, which was an interesting thing to hear him say. He’s been to Colombia with me a couple of times. He knows that I enjoy Colombia. He’s like, you need to leave Mexico. And the reality is here in Mexico City.
there was no perceptible change in anything as far as I could see. I mean, am I a little naive and my Spanish isn’t great enough to pick up on everything everybody’s saying. But I guess the whole reason I’ve been bringing this up is it’s sometimes hard to tell what’s going on when you see the news of things. Obviously what’s going on in the Middle East is much bigger than what was, wow.
I don’t know. Yeah, it is. It’s much bigger than what we experienced here in Mexico. So I don’t know why even why I shared that. But anyway, Lindsey.
Lindsay Nieminen (19:55.438)
I mean, I have a little bit of perspective on that similarly because most people in Jordan, they live there. They can’t leave, right? So I found it really interesting that a lot of the commentary about Mexico in mainstream media is fear mongering. And so all we see is bombs and fires and
Jason Elkins (20:05.848)
Yes, right.
Lindsay Nieminen (20:21.334)
I mean, a hotel on fire in Dubai is pretty big news, but the people that live in Dubai, you know, they’re not really leaving. They live there. So they are, you know, trying to live their lives and it’s the same for Jordan. And unfortunately, when the tourists are all evacuating, there’s no way for them to make their livelihood. So the Facebook forums are like, business as usual, Jordan is safe.
Jason Elkins (20:25.121)
Yeah.
Lindsay Nieminen (20:49.152)
And for the most part, it is very safe. But it doesn’t mean that today is the right time to be going to Jordan.
Jason Elkins (20:57.794)
Yeah. You touched on some about how people live in these places. You know, there’s, I don’t know. It, seems a little unsettling for me when I see politicians in the States or news agencies. Mexico, this and everybody’s trying to get out and they need to get out. seems, it seems kind of,
I don’t know the word, but isn’t that great for the, you know, all of the poor Canadians who are stuck in Mexico. Well, what about all the Mexicans that live here? You know, they can’t go anywhere. And it’s like, but all the news is about, the, the poor Canadians are the poor.
Lindsay Nieminen (21:34.861)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (21:41.773)
people from the United States have quit using the term America because America is a big friggin continent. So the people from the United States that you know were inconvenienced and delayed at the airport or you know they had to stay in their hotel for a couple extra days until their flights opened up and the Mexicans don’t know it’s just always kind of feels a little bit strange. So.
Lindsay Nieminen (21:47.978)
Agreed.
Lindsay Nieminen (22:04.502)
It’s definitely Western centric and I think those of us who do travel the world do look beyond the mainstream media, but most people that watch that media are not traveling. And that’s the worst. The thing that drives me absolutely insane is when somebody says, be safe. And I’m like, I’m going somewhere safe. Like, why are you telling me to be safe? You’ve never been there. But…
You know, the people that have never been to places are typically the ones who are telling you, don’t go, it’s unsafe. And I definitely believe that showing people the world is the best way to get to know the rest of the people around the world.
Jason Elkins (22:45.208)
And isn’t it great that you and I can have such an honest conversation because those people that don’t travel aren’t listening. I wish they would, I, yeah. And it is, it is a thing. mean, you and I can sit here and talk about, you crazy? You should travel the world and you should go see things. And that’s what it is. But you know, one of the, I saw a few threads in social media specifically about Mexico and it was like 90 % of the comments were like,
Lindsay Nieminen (22:51.284)
Yeah, I hope they find us though
Jason Elkins (23:12.364)
Well, you’re a dumbass. shouldn’t have went there. Why would you go? Why would you go to a place like that? And it was it was kind of like it’s your fault that this is happening to you because you’re dumbass and and you basically left the United States.
Lindsay Nieminen (23:25.838)
Yeah, I saw, I mean, I don’t know how true this is, but it was a carousel that came through my Instagram that 40 % of people from the United States don’t have passports. So they are not leaving their country.
Jason Elkins (23:36.376)
Yeah.
which is sad and frustrating, you know, because…
I think if more people did, I just think it would change the nature of the world, which is why I started this podcast. You know, it’s big world made small. This is to get people out there, get them out there, exploring the world. And once they do that, the world feels a lot smaller. The people that live in the middle East feel more human to us and, vice versa. goes both ways and not just the middle East everywhere. I mean, I started the park. went to Southeast Asia. I went to Asia for the first time. And that’s where I started the podcast. Cause I’d always wanted to go to Asia.
of it. my gosh, it’s so far away. And then I got there and I was like, now that I’m here, it doesn’t feel so far away. And it’s just changed my perspective. And I was like, so when I was like, what am I going to name the podcast? it just made sense. So, yeah, I get that. It’s. But again, you know, sitting here saying, people should travel. But if they don’t want to travel, if they’re not inclined to travel. I remember at one point I was running a travel business for a company named Orvis and one of and.
We focused on international stuff around the world. And one of the employees at Orbis that didn’t work in the travel business per se, he approached me once and said, you know, we should, we, meaning the company, should design trips for people that are afraid to travel. And he was so, he was so good natured. was so like, I appreciated what he was saying.
Lindsay Nieminen (25:00.652)
Yeah.
How do you get their money?
Jason Elkins (25:09.89)
But at the same time, that’s a really tough business plan. I don’t know how you make that work because he’s like, I would like to travel, but my wife doesn’t want to travel. She’s afraid to go to Europe and this and that and da da da da da. And it’s like, yeah, how do you develop a trip for somebody that kind of really doesn’t want to travel? It’s a really tough thing. So sometimes we’re just.
Lindsay Nieminen (25:30.966)
Yeah, that’s tough.
Jason Elkins (25:36.697)
preaching to the choir to each other, but then there’s other people that are never going to hear it that’s okay. The world is, you know, has space for everybody. It’s okay. Um, do Jordanians have a culture of traveling? Those that have money. mean, is that, is there a culture there to do that? Cause I haven’t run into many Jordanians traveling girl, but it’s also a small country.
Lindsay Nieminen (25:57.272)
So there’s definitely, yeah, so I mean, Jordan has about 9 million people, so it is a small country.
I do believe a lot of them have passports. Now, the Jordanian passport is not very powerful. It is very difficult for them, even though it’s just a few hours away, to travel to Europe. Unfortunately, because Jordan isn’t a Western country, there is a lot of fear of migration and illegal migration. And you definitely have to have a lot of ties to Jordan to be able to get a visa.
to go to Europe, which I have a friend, he’s a young guy and he managed to get a visa to the UK, which then has opened up Europe to him because he’s proved himself a worthy traveller and he is going home and he’s not planning to stay. So typically Jordanians that do have the means to travel are travelling to places like Egypt.
Syria and weekends in Damascus used to be a very popular thing for Jordanians to do. So unfortunately, they do have the desire and a lot of them actually are able to be educated in Europe. They are a very, very educated population, one of the most educated in the world. The public university is accessible to all in Jordan and so they study hard.
because they know that getting those opportunities in Europe can be life-changing for them.
Jason Elkins (27:30.946)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (27:35.447)
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like it. You know, as you were saying that I realized that some of what I was just talking about traveling was kind of Western centric. It’s very easy for me with a US passport to talk about, yeah, people should get out and travel more. And I don’t understand why people don’t travel. And but I’m also in Mexico City, you know, right now. And I’ve spent a lot of time in Latin America and and and other places. And it’s very easy for me to say.
yeah, you should go travel. It expands the world in both ways, but it’s not so easy, you know, for some people just based on the passport they have.
Lindsay Nieminen (28:11.712)
and the passport and the color of our skin. I am a middle-aged white woman, and I typically pass through the world quite invisibly. And I’m really starting to recognize that privilege with our current US-Canada relations, because I have a friend in the travel industry who is a Black man, and his experience crossing from Canada to the US was very different.
Jason Elkins (28:15.607)
Yeah.
Lindsay Nieminen (28:40.45)
than mine and we were both attending the same travel conference and his experience matters and so does mine and it’s unfortunate that you I you look at my face and I’m very low risk just because of the colour of my skin.
Jason Elkins (28:57.27)
Yes. And sometimes we don’t realize it is white people with passports from Canada or the US. We just kind of oblivious to it until you meet somebody else. You know, somebody else that should have the same experience. So recently, you know, again, I’m in Mexico. And when I flew into Mexico, I was coming to meet a friend. We were going to spend some time together there. She was coming for an art fair, like Art Week in Mexico City.
I flew in, I did not even have to talk to anybody. There’s like, here’s the line, you go scan your passport, you just walk right in.
She has a U.S. visa, so her entry into Mexico is supposed to be easier because she has a visa. She can go visit the U.S. if she wants to. She flew in from Ecuador and landed. What are you doing here? Why are you here? And she said, I’m here, you know, I’m going to spend a couple of months in Mexico. well, why? Well, because I really like the culture. She’s a cultural manager. She managed an art museum.
a very well-known art museum in Ecuador for 30 years. That’s her thing. I’m here for the culture. And they’re like, well, what do you mean? And well, can you, you know, could you have a business card? Do you this and that? They made her like, they looked at her LinkedIn profile to see that she was a cultural manager, cultural, you know, worked in that business. And then like, okay, you can come in, you know, and she had to have proof of where she was staying and a return flight. And like, I didn’t need any of that stuff. And it’s just like, man.
So I’m not saying the government’s wrong in the way they process things, but the world just is not always a fair place. So yeah. And you’ve seen, you’ve seen a lot of that as well. All right. Fascinating conversation. Now let’s get really interesting and figure out how the heck did you get here? I’d like to go back. if you’re okay with it, I’d like to go back to like, what were you doing when you’re kind of younger? Did you ever imagine yourself doing this? What were you thinking? And like, what’d you want to do when you were in high school? Let’s start there.
Lindsay Nieminen (30:39.362)
Absolutely.
Lindsay Nieminen (31:01.198)
Well, when I was 12 years old, I wanted to be a veterinarian. And then, you know, by the time I graduated high school, I wanted to be a history teacher. And I went to university and got an arts degree. And by the time I graduated university, I had a job working for a lighting wholesaler, know, very, very typical, you know.
Jason Elkins (31:05.944)
All right, yep.
Lindsay Nieminen (31:24.428)
management job and so I I never you know never pursued teaching and planned on staying there You know lead in my very middle class by the house by the car get the white picket fence have the family You know, that was the lane that I was in I’ve always loved travel. I was fortunate that my parents did take me around the world, I mean
not around the world, but we vacationed every year in foreign countries. You I went to Australia as a child. I got to go to the Cook Islands as a child. So I always loved travel.
Jason Elkins (31:49.813)
Okay
Jason Elkins (31:57.955)
How did you go from wanting to be a veterinarian to being a history teacher in presumably about six years?
Lindsay Nieminen (32:05.966)
You know what, really don’t know. And I think that’s partly, I have a 12 and 14 year old boys that, you we just need to expose them to as many different things as possible. I was an animal lover as a child. So, you know, that just leads to working with animals. And then I had an incredible history teacher in high school and yeah, it always is.
Jason Elkins (32:29.64)
I knew you were going to say that. knew it was a history teacher. How did I know that?
Lindsay Nieminen (32:35.724)
I mean, part of it is as you get older, you get more choice in what you study. And I was less interested in what we call social studies in the younger grades. And as I got into 11th and 12th grade, we really dialed into things that interested me. And that made me want to pursue it more.
Jason Elkins (32:57.762)
This history teacher, I appreciate the value of just somebody being an inspiring person that you’re like, ooh, that opens up things for you. And I’m also curious, was there a particular type of history? Because in…
the US, presumably a lot of places you spend some time learning about your local history and then maybe your country’s history and then world history. And at the same time, you mentioned that you were fortunate you were able to travel to different countries. So I see a lot of connection between geography, travel and history. It all makes sense. But did you think that that was part of it was that you were traveling to these other places? And was it the world history stuff you were most interested in or some other type of history?
Lindsay Nieminen (33:40.97)
It was definitely the world history. I went to school in an era where Canadian history was taught after the British arrived. It was as if our history is only 250 years old. Now my children, are learning that Canada has history thousands of years old. And I’ve always enjoyed
the foreign aspects of things. Still, if you offered me a trip in Canada or a trip to the other side of the world, I am gonna choose the other side of the world because I want to experience things as foreign as possible. My history teacher in grade 12, it was World War II history, which was not, you know, it was recent history and it was a history that I could connect to versus 250 years.
prior our British-French history here in Canada. And I had grandparents that had fought in the war and I was really interested in learning about that aspect. At that point, I don’t think I had ever been to Europe, but again, it was something that really interested me at the time.
Jason Elkins (34:53.122)
Did it make you want to go to Europe? Like when you’re learning about this stuff, sounds like you’re interested in it. Did you think, I want to go to the Cliffs of Dover or to Calais or to Germany, those places, did that come up for you? Or was it, were you okay just learning about it from a distance or I’m just curious if it inspired you to go? I suspect it did.
Lindsay Nieminen (35:11.758)
Yeah, absolutely. It’s, I, and as crazy as that is, you know, I have been to France three times and have not visited any of the World War II sites. And I think that that’s because I had really young children and so we were prioritizing, you know, what’s fun for kids. And I’m a travel blogger, so I was writing those kinds of articles.
Jason Elkins (35:23.755)
interesting.
Lindsay Nieminen (35:35.628)
I’ve always been the kind of person that would rather see it. I love photography. And my partner said to me one time, why don’t you just download that picture from Google? And I’m like, you don’t understand. I want to take that picture. But he had no desire to do the same thing, so he couldn’t understand why I just didn’t download it from Google.
Jason Elkins (35:48.536)
Hehehehehe
Jason Elkins (36:02.2)
Why do you think that is either about you or just in general? Like, because someone could go to, I’m using maybe not a great example, the Eiffel Tower, and you could buy a postcard, you could obviously go to Google. If you wanted to post something on social media, say I’m at the Eiffel Tower, there’s a bunch of different ways you could do that, or you can take a picture. It sounds like you want to take the picture. Even though there’s thousands and thousands and thousands of pictures of the Eiffel Tower, why do you think it’s important to you to capture it that way?
Lindsay Nieminen (36:31.822)
I mean, partially for me, it’s the… I want to be proud that I took that picture. I want to practice with incredible lighting and just be able to do that myself. I’ve always been a doer rather than a watcher.
Jason Elkins (36:54.594)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Nieminen (36:54.722)
Per se, I’m typically the first one to jump in when something’s not working. I’m not afraid to screw it up. So I think that speaks a lot to my personality. And I also think that that comes with some privilege is I grew up in an average middle-class existence. We didn’t have excess, but we always had enough. And I think for some people, the focus on what
we were raised with this American dream mentality doesn’t leave any time to divert from that because it’s always make the money and then make more money and then get the bigger house. And I thought that’s what I wanted.
Jason Elkins (37:34.009)
And then buy stuff and then buy stuff to put in it. And then you realize, and then the dogs and the cats, and then you want to, you think you want to travel, but we’ve got all this stuff and yeah, it’s tricky. Did you, I guess where I wanted to go with this. Well, let me ask you this. Do you have siblings? I’m curious how they turned out or how they had probably some similar influences in the family. Were there any siblings?
Lindsay Nieminen (37:44.536)
Well, exactly. Yeah.
Lindsay Nieminen (38:04.392)
I have a half brother who’s 10 years younger than me, also fortunate to travel with my dad and my stepmom as we were kids. And he’s living a pretty typical middle class existence. He’s a fireman, has a young baby. He did live for a year in a trailer with his wife and their two dogs. So yeah, exactly. But I mean, there’s nothing in the Western world that
Jason Elkins (38:25.058)
Well, that’s adventurous. I’ve done that.
Lindsay Nieminen (38:34.768)
leads to this kind of life.
Jason Elkins (38:37.1)
I know, yeah, because that was the question I was gonna ask you. In high school, you had some opportunities to travel, you got turned on to history. I’m curious, other people around you, maybe, did you feel like you had the passion for travel early on? I guess here’s the question. When did you realize, holy crap, I’m a traveler?
Lindsay Nieminen (39:02.762)
always. I was never not a traveler, but I didn’t realize until I went to Jordan that I wanted more than a vacation. When I was in high school, I went to Malaysia during spring break with my school. So I had a lot of cultural travel versus laying on the beach, beach vacation.
Jason Elkins (39:05.396)
Okay.
Lindsay Nieminen (39:27.758)
But I met my now ex-husband when I was 19 and I was happy to go along with the get married, buy a house, have the kids and travel later. And that switch really flipped when my neighbor turned 65. Her husband bought them Mediterranean cruise that summer and she died a month later of stomach cancer.
Jason Elkins (39:54.328)
Yeah.
Lindsay Nieminen (39:55.454)
the just the realization that that you know retirement that were sold it’s it’s not guaranteed.
Jason Elkins (40:03.872)
Yeah, it’s it’s surprising how many conversations I’ve had here with guests on the show that involved a death of somebody.
that really shifted things and it was either a parent or somebody that they’re very close to. For example, they listen to their parents talk about, someday, someday, we’re gonna go to Italy or we’re gonna do this or whatever and then someday never came and then maybe one of them has left, well, I can’t go by myself and it does make an impact. Was there ever a point?
when you got turned on to, this is the life I wanna live, where you had other people in your life that kinda thought you were a little bit crazy, or why don’t you want the normal things? Did that ever come up for you?
Lindsay Nieminen (40:50.126)
I mean, that’s probably why I ended up divorced. I was so happy the lane that I was in until I wasn’t. everyone, I said, let’s sell it all and travel the world. My ex-husband had some mental health struggles for a few years and I’m like, why are we working so hard?
Jason Elkins (40:53.496)
I had a feeling you might say that.
Lindsay Nieminen (41:17.762)
just to have one or two vacations with our kids. This is stupid. I had also discovered travel blogging at that point. And I saw these people with young families traveling the world and I just wanted to do it. And I wanted to sell my house. I wanted to leave and just go see the world. And everyone thought I was absolutely crazy.
Jason Elkins (41:38.197)
it resonates just listening. I was like, wow, that sounds like my story. mean, there’s, yeah, it’s, get that. Cause I remember the last three years of my marriage, we were together 19 years and I always knew I wanted to travel. was working in the travel business, but I wanted her to go with me, you know, and, and once, once we got the good travel job with insurance, you know, we had a baby. So that job that we were going to travel together with ended up me being traveling a lot.
And yeah, the last few years it was really tough and she’s a wonderful woman. And I spent the last three years sitting there on the couch watching travel videos and watching YouTube channels. And every once in a while I’d say, hey, you know what? We should buy a sailboat and you, me and Jackson can go travel the world on a sailboat. And she looked at like, you’re…
freaking crazy. There’s no way I would get on a boat with you and Jackson. I mean, she loves him. I think she loved me at the time, but the idea of selling everything and getting a sailboat was just outside of her world. And it was where I really started to realize not everybody’s the same. We don’t all have the same wiring and, and, and
Then when I sold all my stuff, you know, couple of years after the divorce, I finally said, well, you know, there’s really no reason I can’t go. So, and everybody’s like, what are you doing? This is crazy. Especially her, you know, cause we still had split custody of a kid and he just traveled with me in the summers. It actually worked out really well, but wow. yeah. So tell me about, cause did you already have kids? I don’t know where they came around in the story. because you said you saw other people doing it with families.
Lindsay Nieminen (43:09.07)
So
Yeah, I mean, I took, we were going to England for a wedding. So me and my husband and my nine month old baby. And while working, I, you know, got onto the Google and how to survive a nine hour flight with the baby. And that’s how I discovered travel blogs. And so that was 2014. And I was like, I’m gonna do this. Came home, figured out WordPress, wrote one blog post and then never.
touched it again, because again, I got a nine month old baby, I’ve got a full time job, and it was still one of those just pipe dreams for me. Most of my friends were living this middle class normal existence, we were all working hard, getting married, raising families, and so it just went to the back burner again for a couple of years and…
Jason Elkins (43:42.519)
Hmm.
Lindsay Nieminen (44:03.374)
Then in 2015, I now have a one and a three year old and you know, a husband with some mental health struggles. He took some time off work and he said, well, and I was like, well, if you’re going to take some time off work and do all the things that you need to do to get yourself healthy, I’m going to do what I need to do to get healthy, which is to go on vacation.
And I packed up the boys and we went down to San Diego and went to Legoland and you know just did a very typical Vancouver family vacation. And then I did the same thing in Hawaii and I was I was very lucky that I had an understanding boss that let me take these trips. But I still had a mortgage. I still had daycare bills to pay. So came back home and you know went back to work while blogging. So I finally started the blog in 2015 and we just
write about those kind of adventures.
Jason Elkins (44:54.092)
That’s awesome. Did you what what type of work were you doing at that point?
Lindsay Nieminen (44:58.574)
So out of university, I was with this lighting wholesaler. And when I graduated, they just said, we don’t ever want you to leave. And they paid me well enough to stay. And I was happy there. I had helped them build the company from just a couple employees to quite a few. And it provided a meaningful income for me. And it was a stable, good job.
Jason Elkins (45:24.94)
dead.
Jason Elkins (45:28.844)
We can always look back and say, well, if that had happened, then this would have happened. you know, we can talk about regrets. I don’t know how helpful it is to list, to talk about regrets for you and I to talk about regrets, but it might be helpful for somebody else to listen to us talk about regrets or choices or advice you would give to your younger self. And this doesn’t discount your kids or, you know, relationships or whatever, but I’m just curious. Like.
Do you kind of wish you would have figured this out a little earlier? was there a point there that maybe you would have made a different decision looking back on it that somebody else might need to hear?
Lindsay Nieminen (46:10.126)
I’m not the kind of person that lives with a lot of regrets. I’m a pretty big risk taker and I have been living this life for 11 years. I call it freedom 31. That was when I left my job to blog full-time with no income and just knew I was gonna figure it out. But the one thing that I come back to is my 19 year old self.
decided not to do a semester abroad because my boyfriend who became my husband said he didn’t want me to be away. And now I don’t regret doing it. It wasn’t a hard decision for me, but that was something I had always planned on doing. And I hear people now talk about how impactful that semester away at university was for their lives. But I was happy with where my life was going at that time. So I had no regrets, but
I really, that’s the only thing that I didn’t really have that young backpacker experience because, you know, I was 19 and we moved in together relatively quickly and I was just living that life and that was okay. But now I’m almost 42, now I’m living that travel life and it’s a little bit different.
in your 30s and 40s than when you’re 22, 24, 25. But a lot of my friends and my travel peers are those people under 30 because they are doing it now.
Jason Elkins (47:45.337)
Yeah, I’ve noticed that I’m 52 and been traveling full time for four and a half years and the vast majority of the travelers I meet on the road are much younger. And, you know, I wish I’d had that, you know, there’s, there’s, they tend to travel in groups or they tend to travel with their boyfriends and their girlfriends. And there’s, you know, I’m not going to lie. There’s some jealousy. kind of wish I would have had that. I think I wanted that from early on, but
kept getting sucked into other people’s plans. Yeah. So tell me about that moment when you decided to, I’m just, I’m going to jump out of the security of having a normal job with a paycheck and I’m going to do this full time. What, what was, what was going through your head? What was the biggest surprise or the fears or just tell me everything you can about that.
Lindsay Nieminen (48:41.646)
So it’s actually how I ended up in Jordan in the first place. I won a trip to Jordan, which was a country that I didn’t even know existed. I was at the dentist actually scrolling my phone and I got this email saying, you won a trip to Jordan. And I was like, that’s not true.
Jason Elkins (49:04.694)
That sounds like a scam. I would have thought, that’s a scam delete. How the heck did that happen?
Lindsay Nieminen (49:08.042)
Yes, but I mean 2016, you know, we’re going back 10 years. There was a little bit less scammy emails, but Jordan was hosting the under 17 Women’s World Cup and I’m a soccer player and so I had been travel blogging, vacations and travel close to home and a family travel blogger in my circle had done a sponsor post about Jordan and it was enter this contest.
And I didn’t even really think about it. I just filled it out to help her out. Because she’s like, hey, can you read my article? There’s a lot of support in the family travel community. And so I got out of the dentist chair, walking to my car, and I phoned the number at the bottom. And it was a travel agency in Florida that said, yes, you’ve won a trip to Jordan. It’s next Wednesday. And I was like, cool. I’ll figure out where Jordan is. Count me in. I’ll figure it out.
Jason Elkins (49:43.402)
the algorithm.
Lindsay Nieminen (50:08.602)
And as a new travel blogger, getting invited to the other side of the world is pretty exciting. We spend a lot of time pitching destinations and get a lot of nos. So when an international destination is like, yes, we want you to come, it’s pretty exciting. And I didn’t win because I was a travel blogger.
Jason Elkins (50:27.53)
And you didn’t, and you didn’t have to pitch it. And was this, was this your first trip to the middle East as well? Yeah. Wow.
Lindsay Nieminen (50:30.646)
No!
Lindsay Nieminen (50:34.39)
Yes, so I had no plans to ever go to the Middle East. As a kid, I always wanted to see the pyramids, but beyond that, I wanted to travel Western Europe. A very typical Canadian travel itinerary was the kind of thing that I wanted to do. And it was a real pivoting moment for me because the first thing I did was call my husband and say, my God, I just want to trip to the Middle East and you can come too.
My brain was thinking, this will be great for our marriage. We’ll be able to get away from the kids. I’ll ask my mom to take the kids. It’ll be six days, just us. My brain was just spiraling. His reply was, there is no way in hell I am going to the Middle East.
And that was it. And he also would not be able to get holidays with one week’s notice. I mean, I wasn’t worried about those semantics at the time. I was just thinking, holy cow, this is what we need. This is what our relationship needs. And I’m kind of that person that jumps at things before worrying about all the options. I’ll figure out the options later.
So as the days kind of tick on, I’m like, OK, my husband doesn’t want to come, but can I bring my five-year-old? Like, is Jordan safe? I had no clue. And by that, I’m talking to the actual tourism board US office. And they said, well, why don’t you bring your whole family now that they knew I was a travel blogger? Well, my husband doesn’t want to come. So I ended up bringing my mom and my five and three-year-old. And five days later, we are on a plane to Jordan.
And I texted my boss and said, I’m not coming into work. Because he had told me I could not go. And so he forced my hand. I came home a week later and I was fired. And he fired me with a generous severance. And he said, Lindsay, go live your dreams and come back when you’re done. And that was the…
Lindsay Nieminen (52:38.85)
gift, like the most incredible gift he could have given me was his support and also forcing, I mean he had to fire me. You know, just, you know, not show up to work for a week when you are told you can’t have holidays. But that was the catalyst to, you know, how I was going to figure out how to make money blogging.
Jason Elkins (52:54.86)
But
I’m curious when you asked like he he gave you a gift right because if you had said can I have the vacation and he said well it’s a really tough time but okay come back to work in a week you wouldn’t have maybe it happened later I don’t know but like and then he it kind of forced him because maybe he knew like she’s gonna go and I’ll fire her and then she can go live her life and won’t that be great but I can’t say it that way
I don’t know, what do you think? Was there any ulterior thing going on there?
Lindsay Nieminen (53:30.914)
You know what, I really don’t know. I had been, I don’t want to say unhappy, but very unsettled there for a while. And you we were a small company. He knew me well. He knew I had two young kids and a husband who was getting over his mental health challenges and was always very supportive. But I spent months just sitting in front of the computer, just existing. You I was not at my best and…
You know, I don’t know. I’m grateful he fired me now. I don’t know how I would have got to full-time blogging otherwise. I don’t know if I would have been brave enough to jump into it without making any money. I’m really not sure.
Jason Elkins (54:15.458)
Did you feel like would you maybe you mentioned that sorry, but I’m gonna touch on or I want to dig a little deep into how did you feel like when you got back and you got fired, maybe as soon as you said I’m not coming in, maybe already knew that that was a foregone conclusion. But when you got back, you said you’re fired, here’s a check, go live your life. What was the feeling? What was the feeling?
Lindsay Nieminen (54:40.942)
I was excited, honestly. I knew people made money blogging and now I had the time to actually dedicate hours and hours and hours behind my computer because what most people don’t know about travel writers is they do spend most of their time writing and not traveling. And when you have two kids, there’s maybe an hour a day at home after work for me to focus on that. I now had all day.
And I was excited and I said to my husband, I am going to do this. You may need to give me two years, but I’m gonna make so much money, you’re not even gonna have to work.
Jason Elkins (55:18.73)
Okay, and how supportive, how did that go over with him?
Lindsay Nieminen (55:20.814)
He didn’t believe me. And I mean, I don’t blame him. It was a crazy thought, right? It was not the normal middle-class existence. He was afraid. I was the breadwinner in our family. And I just went down to no income. And that is scary for a family with two car payments and two kids in daycare and a mortgage. I’m not normal. And…
Jason Elkins (55:24.32)
Yeah. Yep.
Lindsay Nieminen (55:48.086)
It didn’t scare me. I knew I would figure it out, but not everyone operates that way.
Jason Elkins (55:53.249)
Yeah, most people don’t operate that way. Definitely would say you’re in the minority. I do, I want to jump back just a little bit. When you said, I won this trip, let’s go to Jordan, it’ll be good for our relationship. And he said, I’m not going. We’re not going to dig, unless you want to, we’re not going to dig too much into what that might’ve meant for your relationship and for your, how that must’ve felt because I’ve.
been in similar situations and I know it was difficult for me. But I guess the question is, did he resist you going or did he even care? I mean, was he like, you can go, but there’s no way I’m going or was there some resistance there as well?
Lindsay Nieminen (56:36.494)
So I actually have a tattoo on my arm that says, Alice Volat Proprie, which means she flies with her own wings. And he used to always joke that it should say, good luck telling Lindsay no. So he knew that, I mean, at 19, he told me not to go overseas and to go to school and I listened, but.
you know, after being together for over 10 years, you know, he knew I do what I want when I want and I figure it out. So there was never a you can’t go, you can’t take the kids. That wasn’t, was never a, an issue.
Jason Elkins (57:18.56)
you feel it if I’m having there’s so many layers we’re not gonna go we don’t need to go into all of them but if if my partner says there’s no way I’m going there that’s dangerous that’s crazy dadada
Lindsay Nieminen (57:25.811)
you
Jason Elkins (57:36.14)
but then they don’t try and stop me from going. There might be a little bit of thought process. If you think it’s so dangerous, when you’re just gonna sit back and let me go, which I actually would appreciate that, because I’m gonna go anyway. I’m like you, but maybe there might be a moment of like, why aren’t you trying to stop me if you think it’s so dangerous? But.
Lindsay Nieminen (57:53.934)
There was definitely none of that. He wasn’t a traveler. I was a traveler. So anywhere we went, it was me taking him. He would put up sitting in a plane for five hours to go to Hawaii because he liked it when he got there. But he six foot two, airplanes are not made for tall men. He was a smoker. So just knowing he can’t have a cigarette was, he he wasn’t a traveler. And…
Jason Elkins (57:56.428)
No.
Jason Elkins (58:21.517)
Yeah.
Lindsay Nieminen (58:22.176)
And I mean, opposites attract, right? So.
Jason Elkins (58:26.184)
we’re here to dig into your personal life. So I guess I can ask, you, have you had, because he’s your ex husband now. Okay. have you had opportunities to find somebody that’s a little bit more open to traveling a little bit more like you? I don’t know what your relationship status is. We could discuss it now or, but what I want to dig into is like, what’s the other side of that? You know, have you had that other side of that where you find somebody that is on the same page?
Lindsay Nieminen (58:56.334)
I am currently single. Never found or really looked for someone who had that type of mentality, but most of my closest friends, whether men are or women are travelers. And I think, you know, travel people just get each other. I, you know, my story of why Jordan and how I ended up going back.
for the last 10 years was about a man. I went back to Jordan four months after my first trip. I decided that’s where the catalyst to my travel blog was gonna start. I had been there on a tour, I had loved it, my mom had loved it. We were blown away by the hospitality of the people and just the region in general.
I booked a ticket for me and my boys who were five and three at the time. We went to spend a month in Jordan. And I ended up falling in love with my tour guide.
Jason Elkins (01:00:05.226)
Okay.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:00:06.402)
So that turns into coming home to a divorce and selling the house and all of the things that go from there. But that’s kind of how my Jordan story started was over him.
Jason Elkins (01:00:19.628)
Wow, okay.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:00:23.958)
I just took the conversation sideways, didn’t I?
Jason Elkins (01:00:23.96)
Here’s that awkward, here’s that awkward pause. There’s so many questions. I, wow. Okay. and the, what did you like, I’m a Matt, here’s what I’m imagining and you can chime in if it makes, if there’s, if it resonates, but if you really want to go explore and travel and, and your partner clearly doesn’t enjoy it on the same level.
I can imagine a scenario where you’re like, I’m going to go do it. And then, wow, I meet somebody who’s also kind of, I’m not saying he was a traveler. don’t know the whole story, but tour guides tend to be pretty attractive, not necessarily physically maybe as well, but tour guides are generally people that are pretty outgoing, pretty open-minded, pretty curious and pretty good at connecting with people. Does that resonate? Is that kind of what happened?
Lindsay Nieminen (01:01:18.706)
That, yep, 100 % resonates. And I will tell you that that’s probably over 80 % of the Jordanian population. They are incredibly friendly and outgoing and hospitable. nobody goes to Jordan for the people. They go to go see Petra. And they leave saying, wow, I never imagined loving a country for its people so much. But just the genuine
Jason Elkins (01:01:20.856)
You
Jason Elkins (01:01:27.524)
Lindsay Nieminen (01:01:46.99)
hospitality and friendliness that people encounter every hour of every day is so surprising.
Jason Elkins (01:01:54.371)
Okay, so let me ask you this. If 80 % of the people there are like that, because I’m single, I’ve been traveling and I’m drawn to people that are interested in travel, open-minded, cultural, that type of thing. And if I show up in a place that 80 % of them are, maybe not exactly like that, but you know what mean, they’re outgoing, they’re friendly, hospitable.
And I meet the first one and I think, my God, I found my person. This is my person. And you fall in love with that person. And then at some point maybe realize, did I fall in love with that person or did I fall in love with the culture behind that person? I don’t know. You were with him quite a while, it sounds like, and obviously made some huge life changes as a result. But does any of that resonate? Have you seen that type of scenario happen?
Lindsay Nieminen (01:02:45.502)
I mean, I don’t know personally, but I can let you know there are a lot of Jordanians that have European wives. So I’m not the only one falling for the charm of the Jordanians.
Jason Elkins (01:02:57.376)
Okay. All right. That’s interesting and it makes sense. I mean, I’ve spent a lot of time in Latin America and there’s a lot of different reasons people go to Columbia and regardless of what that reason is, can tell you the Colombian people are very outgoing, friendly and passionate and energetic and I remember when I started my travels, my full-time travels four and a half years ago.
I started in Columbia and I fell in love immediately and wonderful woman. still are in contact. Wonderful woman. And I also realized at some point, I’m not sure if it was her so much. Like, I feel weird saying that, but for me, it was like, wow, the culture is so fascinating. You just cannot feel connected.
when you go there. after, know, two years after divorce and living in Arizona, waiting for, hoping to meet somebody that would go travel with me, I picked up and left and went to Columbia and immediately fell in love with both the country and her. And sometimes I’m not sure in what order and, yeah. So.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:03:50.103)
Yeah.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:04:05.646)
can can 100 % relate to that is I don’t know if it was the country or the person but there’s a really great book for those who like to read it’s called Married to a Bedouin and it is a woman from New Zealand who in the 80s comes to Jordan on a holiday and then
Jason Elkins (01:04:17.176)
Mmm.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:04:24.418)
falls, well, she comes to Jordan and then leaves and then basically is drawn back because of the person that she met there. And it’s an incredible story of a Westerner because our culture is so different. again, it is hard to say is it the culture or the people, but there’s just something about being in Jordan that’s really special.
Jason Elkins (01:04:47.842)
Yeah, I sense that I can see that for those that are just listening, I get to see you on the screen and I can see the look, the look on your face. so maybe you mentioned this, I apologize if I missed it. I was so excited about the, you fell in love with tour guide. it was 10 years in that relationship, but more importantly, what I want to get to is did you end up, then did you end up moving there or splitting your time there? Or what did, what did that look like for that for the first few years or so that after the divorce?
Lindsay Nieminen (01:05:01.23)
No.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:05:18.52)
So, you know, we managed to maintain a very successful long distance relationship thanks to technology. I never moved there. I would never take my children away from their dad. That was something that was very important to me. But I was still able to travel for what a vacationer considers a long period of time, three or four weeks, because they were young.
Jason Elkins (01:05:46.264)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:05:47.722)
you know and so we traveled together to Europe you know I was like okay we’re gonna meet in France and he was like yeah sure whatever just you know happy to follow me where I wanted to go would come to Canada.
Jason Elkins (01:06:02.248)
And not just you, but you and your kids. That’s pretty impressive, actually.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:06:06.486)
Yes, I mean, he loved my kids and they were young kids, right? Can you imagine, you know, falling in love with someone and then they come with a three and a five year old? He was very, very patient.
Jason Elkins (01:06:17.974)
Yeah, I’ve, I’ve done that a handful of times and it’s a challenge. seems, it seems it didn’t last 10 years. Let’s put it that way. So yeah, I do get the challenge, but also it’s one thing if you fall in love with someone in the same town and they’ve got a couple of young children, right? Cause you, can get a sitter, you go out and you see them enough that it kind of offsets some of those things. But I’m thinking if I only get to see my, my partner,
you know, for a few weeks every three, four months. And then when I see her, she shows up with her kids. It’s a little bit more challenging. I love kids. I love every, you know, I’m not saying that, but that takes a special man, I guess is really what I’m saying. So, man, a better one, I guess. Was he a better one? that? No, okay. But all right. So I’m not sure what the.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:06:54.556)
Yep.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:07:03.734)
Absolutely.
No.
Jason Elkins (01:07:15.05)
Next big milestone is for you, but you’re doing this long distance thing, meeting up in different places, maintaining the relationship for, for quite a while. You’re doing the blogging, apparently doing pretty well with it. If you’re able to afford all these plane tickets to go beat your boyfriend, if I’m going to say it that with your kids, cause that’s not just one ticket, that’s three tickets. That’s like, Whoa, that’s a, so you’re doing well with the blogging. I’m curious. did you touch on the.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:07:30.894)
Yep.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:07:35.113)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:07:43.5)
guess intercultural dating dynamics and relationship stuff in your blogging at all or did that stay completely on the side?
Lindsay Nieminen (01:07:51.054)
He mostly stayed on the sidelines with my writing. Most of my writing was for Westerners on how to travel with your kids. And I then was taking my kids to Egypt. And we road trip for three weeks through France and Switzerland. We went to Greece and Turkey. So we were now moving beyond your typical vacation destinations to much more culturally diverse trips.
Jason Elkins (01:08:19.958)
light bulb just went off over my head and I’m just curious if your job is to travel to write blogs about traveling with your kids it sounds like all this traveling with your kids is a business expense
Lindsay Nieminen (01:08:35.774)
absolutely. My children and, you know, I actually have a trip next week with my 14 year old and he is a paid model. So yes, I am writing off that plane ticket.
Jason Elkins (01:08:47.576)
Okay, you’re a smart woman. I have to listen to you to come up with ideas. I never would have figured that out on my own. So, okay. All right.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:08:49.624)
Yeah.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:08:57.174)
I mean, try and convince the government that it’s not a business expense to bring my child when they would any destination that wants to bring in a model, they’re going to be paying that model. So yes, I’m going to write off my child. If I’m writing about traveling with kids, we’re actually going on a small ship cruise. I can’t write about traveling on a small ship cruise with teens without my teen.
Jason Elkins (01:09:14.188)
Hmm.
Jason Elkins (01:09:20.888)
I’m thinking, mean, start writing some blog posts about traveling with my 19 year old son.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:09:28.082)
I mean, I will tell you, you are three years too late. The blogging bubble burst in 2023 with the addition of AI to the internet, but it was a great way to make money.
Jason Elkins (01:09:33.388)
I know, I know.
Jason Elkins (01:09:43.735)
That’s a good subject. Let’s talk about that transition. I love how you worked that in. All right, so the travel blogging thing first. But wait, you just said you’re getting ready to take another trip with your son, right? And you’re gonna pay him as a model. So what are you doing now?
Lindsay Nieminen (01:09:57.228)
Yeah, so I am still a travel writer. So I’m on food tours. Basically, that’s it. And honestly, the revenue aspect of things have changed because most bloggers made a lot of their money through ad networks and affiliate income. So I would recommend a certain suitcase, packing cubes. You would buy it on Amazon. I would make a commission.
Jason Elkins (01:10:02.89)
just don’t make as much money doing it. Okay.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:10:26.198)
traffic drops so does that revenue and then as your traffic drops to your website in general because of AI snippets you’re getting less ad revenue so my own personal revenue structure has moved to destinations paying us to come in as sponsored content to reach my audience and to write articles about their destination
Jason Elkins (01:10:53.528)
to reach your audience through email sends, your email list because you’re not getting the organic traffic as much anymore. You still get something.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:11:00.43)
Yes, mean organic traffic still exists to a lesser extent, but yeah, I have an email list. I have a large social following. You know, I’ve been doing this for 10 years, so there are people that have been following me around the world for a long time.
Jason Elkins (01:11:17.368)
Do you think that those followers, like when you send this out to your list and say, hey, I was on Jason’s podcast, go take a listen, do you think there’ll be some new stuff? Because it sounds like you didn’t write a lot about some of these personal things with dating, international, all this stuff. Are there going to be some surprises to the people that have been listening to you or reading you for quite a while? What do you think?
Lindsay Nieminen (01:11:41.428)
honestly, so probably about two months ago, I told my story on my website for the first time. it’s 9,000 words and it goes back from 2015 to today. And, and there’s definitely some surprises in there. And it took me a really long time to want to share those.
pieces because obviously there are people that I hurt along the way. You know, I ended up divorced. I mean my kids can read this. It’s on the internet. So I was always very cognizant of it’s a lot bigger than me. And so my boyfriend was never a huge part of my social media presence. It was it was just not it wasn’t hidden, but it wasn’t
shared as this new pivot in my life.
Jason Elkins (01:12:41.272)
What made you decide to start sharing?
Lindsay Nieminen (01:12:46.238)
honestly, the only reason I own a food tour in the Middle East is because he died.
and this was his tour company. We talked about it during COVID. It was a great retirement plan. As a traveler, I knew there was huge untapped potential with food tours and there was no one doing it in Jordan. And because of our access to Canada and my expertise with websites, we had a huge leg up on everybody else. So, yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:13:23.02)
And you had an audience. And you had an audience as well.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:13:25.678)
I mean, and I never even sold it to my audience, but I mean, May 2022, we launched a Monfoo Tours and he did one tour before he ended up being so sick, he came back to Canada and six months later he died of stomach cancer.
Jason Elkins (01:13:43.042)
Help me understand. I don’t know if we missed something. She just came back to Canada. So did we miss something from the long distance relationship to him being in Canada?
Lindsay Nieminen (01:13:48.832)
So, I mean, so he had a Canadian passport. So he immigrated to Canada in his 30s, had his kids here, and then his family chose back, chose to go back to Jordan for the lifestyle. So he was one of those lucky people that was able to travel with his Canadian passport. So he came here during COVID, he’s able to work here being a citizen.
and came back for the healthcare.
Jason Elkins (01:14:22.464)
I’m sorry to hear that. It must be very difficult. I can’t say I can imagine it’s difficult because I can’t. I can’t really imagine what that’s like.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:14:28.174)
It’s, you know, it’s really changed my outlook on life. Again, we touched before on my 65 year old neighbor dying. I mean, he was 54 years old. And it really made me embrace each chapter, that it was a great chapter. And I think maybe the reason that I was ready to tell the story now is that
The chapter that I’m in with Amman Food Tours and with Jumana in Jordan is because of him. And my relationship with her and supporting women in tourism would have never happened if we hadn’t found ourselves here. And so I’m very grateful for that chapter. And I can just enjoy it for what it was. And it did end. And that’s unfortunate.
Now I’m in my I’m on food tours chapter where I’m supporting women in tourism and I’m very proud of that.
Jason Elkins (01:15:32.195)
Very cool. I wonder if almost in a sense, it’s like, OK, this is my chapter is among food tours. But if you go from my chapter of blogging with my kids to among food tours, it’s like there’s a chapter missing. And if you don’t share that chapter. Right. And so what I hear you saying is you shared the chapter of your time with him.
your story around how things progressed there and turned into a Mon food tours. Is there anything? Am I even closer? Am I way off in the understanding of this?
Lindsay Nieminen (01:16:05.77)
No, no, I mean, so our relationship was always long distance. He would come here for a month when the tourist season was slow. I would go there sometimes with my kids, sometimes without, you know, as they got older, they got easier to leave behind. And we just managed to make that connection work. It worked for us. And
We launched him on food tours to be an easy retirement plan for him. mean, tour guides work hard. They work 12 to 14 hours a day. you know, this food tour is three hours. So, you know, in my mind, I’m like, look, you can do a lunchtime food tour for three hours. You can go home. You can do an evening food tour for three hours. And that’s a great way for you to be able to make money and continue guiding and not to have to be so exhausting. And
know, the plan was for him to be the guide. And I provided the website backend side of things. And then when he came back to Canada, he found Jumana, who was a friend of his. He asked quite a few people if they wanted to take it on, and they said no. And she said yes. And…
Jason Elkins (01:17:20.396)
Where did he find her? Because I heard you say when he came back to Canada, he found her. So was she in Canada?
Lindsay Nieminen (01:17:27.188)
No, no. So before he left, I mean, we had tours booked. The third day after our website went live, we had a booking. There’s just such high demand for this product that didn’t exist. And I knew that as a travel writer. And being able to just pop that website up on the Internet was easy for me, but we needed that infrastructure with him there and we needed a route. And so he was able to very quickly.
Jason Elkins (01:17:31.873)
Okay, right.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:17:56.11)
I mean, as horrible as this sounds, he had a twisted bowel and needed to have emergency surgery in Jordan before he came back and was able to manage, you know, to tell her, here’s all the foodstuffs, here’s what you do, and, you know, we’ll get the money to you. And she took it on and ran with it. And the reviews were incredible. Again, like you’ve got this spicy 42-year-old…
Jordanian woman who is, you know, not what you would expect to get from your tour guide. And so he, while he was here in Canada, was kind of managing it and she was doing the tours and I didn’t talk to her until two weeks before he died. He was managing all those things and I said to her, Jumana, like,
Do we shut this down? Like again, this was Christmas time, so a slow season and we were only booking out one season at a time. We didn’t have 12 month booking open. You know, there wasn’t really any bookings in the future. I’m like, look, like I can just take the website off the internet. And, but if you like what you’re doing, you know, it, I don’t mind, you know, like I, it was never meant to be a business plan for me, but she said she loved it and she had never found something she loved doing so much.
And so that’s how my relationship with Amman Food Tours and with Jumana came about.
Jason Elkins (01:19:22.328)
Wow. Do you, first of all, I know you talked about new chapters, but I can’t hear your story without feeling in some way, if it were me, I would feel like this business is a connection to a very important part of my life. That, you know, and like.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:19:44.238)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:19:47.115)
If I went through what you went through, imagine I would want to maintain that connection. There’s yes, there’s moving on with life, but there’s also, I don’t know how I could get rid of the business. Like I think it’d be difficult. And, I know you offered that you had that conversation, but then especially when she’s like, no, I’m, I’m enjoying this. I want to keep doing this. I would have felt a little better relief. Thank goodness. I’ve got somebody that will keep doing it. So I don’t just have to take the website down and pretend like it never happened.
But that’s those are my words. I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, but
Lindsay Nieminen (01:20:19.118)
Right, well, I mean at that time I was still a travel blogger. I was, that was my lane and I was happy to support this on the side because you know I can do it from Canada, you know I’m sitting here in my kitchen. I went back October 10th, 2023 for the first time since he had died and I was scared. I honestly, I didn’t know if I loved Jordan without him in it.
Jason Elkins (01:20:29.75)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:20:46.614)
and that kind of comes to is it the people or the place? And I really didn’t know. So I went back for a travel conference and I didn’t go alone. I brought a friend because I didn’t know how I was gonna feel. And there definitely was some emotional moments. I mean, I was there just three months ago and that…
Jason Elkins (01:20:51.383)
Yeah.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:21:10.306)
to me was one of those even more emotional moments. I I saw the old neighborhood where I had rented an apartment and then, you know, not only grieving him, but just like grieving that life. You know, we all look back at things like with that nostalgic, you know, feeling. So, you know, it was him, it was missing him, but it was also missing that freedom that I had with a three and a five-year-old that we had spent a month living in that apartment and just playing in the parking lot. So I…
I really didn’t know how I was gonna feel and if I loved Jordan and if I ever wanted to go again. And I’m grateful that I did love Jordan for Jordan and for people like Jumana.
Jason Elkins (01:21:48.546)
Did writing that 9,000 word blog post help you process that? Is that part of why you did that?
Lindsay Nieminen (01:21:56.342)
it, it felt good to get out there. what are the biggest… I don’t, I don’t want to say problem, but the surprise of when I tell people how I got here was that I have to start with, he died. And I feel bad for the person I’m telling it to because there’s shock and there’s emotion and they’re feeling sorry for me and…
I think being able to explain it all, because I always get, how’d you start a business in the Middle East? mean, you know, nobody really has that desire to open a business in one of the toughest neighborhoods in the world. You know, I was in Madrid last week and somebody said to me, why don’t you open a food tour in Mexico?
And I’m like, well, maybe I will one day, but there’s something really special about Jordan and why I mean, literally this week has been nothing but cancellations, which is it’s it’s more than just about me. It’s it’s about my guide and it’s about the restaurants and it’s about the staff there. And, you know, these people do live here. It’s not just about us visitors that get to go there on holiday.
Jason Elkins (01:23:13.76)
Yeah, there are some tour operators in the world or guides in the world that maybe they, I don’t know if Jordan’s a good example because of the licensing and stuff like that, but you know, it’s tour operators that they make all their money doing tours in, I’m going to pick a random country, India. have no idea. They make all their money doing tours in India.
And they go and they lead the tours or maybe they’re tour, you know, they kind of do the tour guide thing and business wraps up and, and they just leave and go back to Canada. But the boots on the ground are Jordanians that we’ve discussed and you’re in more of a supporting role. You’ve got other things going on. so when you see something like this happen, where all of sudden the.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:23:48.91)
us.
Jason Elkins (01:24:00.93)
people are canceling the people. I’m not going to say I’m sure you’ve got some financial stuff going on as well as part of this, but you’re really focused on the people on the ground because you know that you’re doing this business kind of for them. Not not not because you’re trying to make get rich doing tours and Oman. You know, you’re kind of doing this to because they were inspired to keep doing it because of your partner and you’ve got other reasons for doing this as opposed to just make it a bunch of money. So I appreciate that.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:24:14.702)
Yep.
Jason Elkins (01:24:31.936)
I guess that’s all I got to say on that. It’s, yeah.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:24:33.742)
Yeah, mean, timing is so unfortunate because this is the spring we decided to expand. I I interviewed five women two weeks ago to come on part time because our march was so busy. Our tours are sold out and I want to be able to increase availability. know, tourism in the Middle East has been slow since 2023 and, you know, unfortunately for the last 25 years, that region has never got a break.
Jason Elkins (01:24:46.744)
Yeah.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:25:04.04)
and these people are just, so resilient. They’re not like me that can just leave and close up shop. That’s their home. And they, despite all of these issues around them, they still, I had to cancel a cooking class for three days from now. And she’s like, it’s okay, Lindsay, it’s not your fault.
No, it’s not my fault, but you know, like I was just about to pay you a whole bunch of money that now you’re not getting to feed your own family, you know, and so it’s, it’s really, it’s, it’s hard. And I mean, I am the lucky one. I am the one sitting here in Canada with other opportunities, but
Jason Elkins (01:25:33.304)
That’s hard. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:25:43.639)
Yeah, you can’t really, and I know you weren’t complaining, but it’s like the Canadians at the airport in Puerto Vallarta that are upset that the flights have been canceled and they have to hang out in their hotel for a few more days. It’s like the person that’s, if their complaint is, I got a lot of cancellation emails. And I know you weren’t complaining. were telling, we were discussing the situation, but like, okay, you’re in Canada dealing with cancellation emails. Jumana, is that, did I pronounce her name right? Jumana?
Lindsay Nieminen (01:26:12.021)
Jumana with a J.
Jason Elkins (01:26:13.376)
Yeah, know, Jumana and her colleagues and family have missiles flying overhead and no income.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:26:19.852)
Yeah, we really get caught up in our own, you know, own selves. you know, nobody’s concerned about the people that live in Puerto Vallarta. They’re concerned about their loved ones who may be there on vacation. And it’s really, really crazy world that we live in.
Jason Elkins (01:26:25.292)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:26:38.668)
Yeah. And I guess it’s normal human nature. You know, I.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:26:44.247)
and the mainstream media that’s focusing on the tourists, right?
Jason Elkins (01:26:48.408)
Yeah. To the point where it’s like, my son was like, they’re doing this. They’re doing that. And, and it’s dangerous and you’re in danger and you need to get out of there. And the unfortunate reality is if there had been a Canadian killed, we would have heard about it non stop. So Jackson’s like, they’re killing tourists. I’m like, no, if they were killing tourists, we’d be hearing about it. And that’s kind of a sad statement because those people live here.
that are dying, they’re just, okay, 25 National Guard people killed, whatever, whatever, but I’ll tell you what, one Canadian tourist and the world’s gonna come to an end and tourism in Mexico’s gonna stop for years and it’s just, the world is a tough place to kind of figure out sometimes.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:27:35.776)
It And
Jason Elkins (01:27:50.157)
Yeah.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:28:00.888)
horrible war going on and people are being killed every day and it doesn’t hit our news cycle because there’s no Western tourists impacted.
Jason Elkins (01:28:08.726)
Yeah, and it’s, I guess I shouldn’t say it’s not a news story, but I don’t know that it’s really a news story that flights have been delayed or flights been canceled. That happens every day, all year long, especially in the winter in Canada and the U S and yeah, you’ll hear news stories about that as well. But if you look at really what’s happening and what’s happening in parts of world to what’s happening in the middle East, the fact that people’s flights are getting delayed and canceled is just kind of like, really that’s the best you got.
But anyway, that sounds critical in judgemental, doesn’t it?
Lindsay Nieminen (01:28:37.464)
Yeah.
No, mean, it’s hard. We are Westerners and we do come at it from a Western lens. I have a friend who is, she’s from the US and she was in Jordan this week and had a trip plan to Egypt. And yesterday she was able to get on a flight out of Jordan and flew to Amsterdam. And today the US State Department has lowered its threat level to Egypt. Yesterday they said, get out of Egypt. So instead of flying to Egypt as scheduled, she chose
to go to Europe. And now she’s mad because of course she listened to her government’s advice, but at the same time, she’s not only missing out on a vacation, but those people are missing out on her tourism dollars, which are now being sold elsewhere. So it’s just a really, really unfortunate situation.
Jason Elkins (01:29:32.748)
Yes, it is. I did want to ask you, when was the decision to make this and a woman owned and operated and women guides and all this stuff? Did that happen immediately after your partner’s passing or was it just kind of obvious because that’s the way it was set up and you just ran with it? Or I’m just curious how that decision came about.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:29:56.11)
I mean, it was purely accidental because I would had found Jumana to take over the tours. And then when it basically landed in my lap, it was kind of a natural lane to feed in. And we worked so well together and I saw the opportunity that meaningful employment. mean, Jordan has really, really low meaning.
Jason Elkins (01:30:11.49)
Just seemed like that’s the way it is.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:30:26.07)
low minimum wage. It’s not livable. Like most places in the world, I minimum wage in Canada is also not livable. But I’ve never really been in that feminist lane personally. But I do get a lot of fulfillment. I mean one of the ladies that we wanted to hire is a single mom with two kids. And you know she may have not been the most qualified or the best most well spoken.
But her story spoke to me the most that of all the women I wanted to hire her because I knew that that money matters to her. And if I can change her life and make it just a little bit better by providing her with meaningful employment, that, like it feels good.
Jason Elkins (01:31:11.094)
And the stories are so important in this business, you know, if we say tourism, the stories. So if her story resonates with you, she’s probably going to be amazing with the clients. Not that she’s talking about her financial situation with them, but something about when people have stories, it creates connections.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:31:29.173)
Absolutely.
Jason Elkins (01:31:29.686)
which is why we come on and have these conversations about stories on the podcast is because it’s such an important part of this. And people that do this type of work always have a story. Always. I haven’t had one conversation with someone that like, my gosh, this person boring. They have no story.
They got up, they went to school for tourism and then they got a job and they were just a tour guide for 30 years and don’t have any stories. That never happens. I’m not sure if anybody’s out there like that. If there is, let me know.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:32:00.952)
Yeah.
It’s a great business. I mean, so I have a friend who also was in the family travel blogging lane and he used to sell medical supplies and sold his business, you know, about a decade ago. And he said, you know, as he’s winding down his family travel blog, his kids are, you know, are late teens and off in college. And he said, you know how many people in the medical supply business I still talk to? Zero. But you know how many people like we travel the world together because, you know, we just, it’s a great
people. It’s a great industry and yeah, I don’t want to be anywhere else.
Jason Elkins (01:32:37.784)
I did real estate for a while, residential real estate, because my wife at the time thought that I should make more money than flying hot air balloons, which I can appreciate that. So I sold my balloon ride business, sold houses for a while. And after I got a, and I’m not knocking anybody I worked with. But honestly, when that ended, that ended, the relationships ended, con, you know, the people I used to sit and open houses with every weekend.
just drifted apart like really fast and I had, you know, been started full time traveling and part of, part of like my, my, um, I guess kind of part of my reason for doing the podcast was I was traveling alone and I was like, it’d be really nice to have conversations with people that are like-minded as opposed to, as opposed to the 19, you know, as opposed to staying in a hostel so I could talk to some 19 and 20 year olds, which are great. They’re, wonderful.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:33:26.274)
Yep, absolutely.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:33:32.108)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:33:33.922)
But I was like, man, if I had an excuse to have a conversation with somebody once a week, that would probably make things more interesting. And it never once occurred to me to do a real estate podcast. I mean, there’s, I could potentially build one up and get a following and get sponsors and actually make money from it, but that’s not me. So I’ll stick with adventure travel.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:33:45.011)
Right?
Lindsay Nieminen (01:33:55.34)
Yeah, no, mean, yeah, I think there’s very few of us that go into travel to get rich. The lifestyle is such a huge, you know, like if I wanted to make money, I tell all the young people, become a nurse here in Canada. You know, like you can take that job around the world with you. You have a job the second you’re out of university. You have a pension in 25 years. I mean, for me, the lifestyle is so much more important than how much money I can make.
Jason Elkins (01:34:22.872)
When I was doing the ballooning, my wife, part of, and I understand her position. She was a middle manager at Amazon and would go into one of the fulfillment centers every day, long days, stressful days.
And I would go out and fly my balloon in the morning. Maybe we’d do a proposal flight. know, my passengers would get engaged. It was like me and them 10,000 feet up. And I’m taking pictures of them doing a champagne toast with the new ring. And I’m like, this is amazing. Oh my God, my life is great. And then by noon I’d be done. And by the time she’d get home, I’d be sitting out in the pool with a beer. I’m like, oh, we had this amazing flight today. This guy engaged to his girlfriend and da da da da da. It was so cool. Da da da. And she just walked in the door from spending.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:34:54.658)
Bye.
Jason Elkins (01:35:04.758)
you know, nine, 10 hours in a fulfillment center for Amazon so she could pay the rent at her place. And so her first response, yeah, well, how much money did you make? Well, you know, after expenses, I think I probably cleared about 90 bucks, but I had fun. Yeah. So I, know,
Lindsay Nieminen (01:35:10.487)
Yep.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:35:15.374)
Right.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:35:22.314)
Exactly. So we may drive old cars and, you know, not spend that money on a new car. I mean, I drive a 2011 Honda Pilot and I will drive that car until it dies because it’s an incredible people mover for my kids. But the last thing I want to do is spend, you know, vacation and travel money on a car.
Jason Elkins (01:35:36.679)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:35:44.253)
are like yeah I mean I’m constantly thinking okay where am I going next and do I have enough money for the ticket and and am I gonna get a slightly nicer and be next there being be next week those are the choices I have to make I I don’t buy anything I mean I have like everything I own is in a suitcase which means anything I buy I got a carry so I’m pretty much it’s great I love it it’s forced minimalism in us in a sense not forced because it’s a choice but anyway
Lindsay, we discussed a bunch of different things, a bunch of things I didn’t think we would talk about. I told you we might chat for 45 minutes to an hour. I see that we’ve gone a little over that. But I also, I promised you that I’d give you a chance to, if there’s anything else in your mind. So I’m curious, what did I forget to ask you? What do you wish I would have asked you? Or what else do you want our listeners to know about your story, global politics, some on food tours, or just life in general?
Lindsay Nieminen (01:36:41.258)
yeah, I mean, we definitely went sideways and that’s, that’s great. You told me I would just have to talk and that it would be easy and it wasn’t a hard sell on like come to Jordan and take my food tour. I, I, I honestly, for me, I think the biggest takeaway, from my travels is learning that how you spend your money does matter. And you know, we’re currently in a
Jason Elkins (01:36:47.37)
It was, wasn’t it?
Lindsay Nieminen (01:37:08.206)
Canada, US, economic, tariff, economic warfare, whatever you want to call it, and the bi-Canadian mentality has never been stronger. But that speaks to travel in general. You can spend your money on a high-end vacation that doesn’t even really bring you close to the people in that country you’re visiting, or…
You can choose a still beautiful boutique hotel at high-end services and multiple touch points of local people. that, I don’t wanna force people to travel a certain way, but especially in Jordan, it’s really easy to see the difference that your travel dollars.
make and you know as a western traveler I’m grateful that I’m able to make those choices and spend my money where it matters.
Jason Elkins (01:38:07.892)
I love that. And just when I when I yeah, when I hear you say that and everything, this conversation, like if I found myself in a month, I’m not going to say tomorrow because I’m not likely to go there tomorrow. But at some point in the future, like I’m a foodie and I love the food thing. And we talk about connecting with the local people. mean, a food tour is like.
You’re there with people sharing food. You’ve got your guide. You’ve got the people working in the restaurants. You’ve, you know, I suspect that some of your tours have plenty of opportunities for people to really connect with people they wouldn’t otherwise connect with as opposed to I love history. History is great. But just following your guide around, looking at different buildings or pieces of artwork or whatever. I’m not knocking them at all, but
I love what you’re saying about, know, make sure your money connects with those people. A food tour is a great way to do that because there’s multiple people involved. It’s not just the guide and it’s not the person that set up the tour. There’s a lot of different moving parts. So very, very cool. I really appreciate you. I appreciate you spending so much time with us today and look forward to working on some projects with you in the future. Also looking forward to.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:39:00.181)
Absolutely.
Jason Elkins (01:39:17.448)
that situation in the Middle East, you mentioned, you know, they’ve had 20 some years of challenging times. And hopefully it’s not a political statement, but hopefully whatever’s happening now will eventually be resolved, hopefully soon, and maybe open up some opportunities for some peace in the Middle East. So I would love to see that happen. I wish I could make it happen, but I love that you’re involved in helping.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:39:24.174)
Yep.
Jason Elkins (01:39:42.892)
connect people with the Middle East to make things better. That’s pretty cool. So thanks, Lindsay.
Lindsay Nieminen (01:39:48.206)
Absolutely, thanks for having me.
Jason Elkins (01:39:49.569)
I’ll chat with you soon.
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