Guest Bio
Lisa Jansen is a writer, adventurer, and digital nomad based in New Zealand. In 2017, at the age of 33, she embarked on a journey to explore alternative lifestyles beyond the traditional path of marriage, children, and a 9-to-5 job. She sold most of her belongings, moved into a campervan, and spent almost five years traveling full-time across New Zealand. During this time, Lisa worked remotely as a marketing consultant and writer, immersing herself in the beauty of the country while pursuing personal growth and new experiences. Her passion for reading and writing has been a constant throughout her life, leading her to author three books and contribute to various magazines. Lisa continues to inspire others through her stories and insights into living life differently.
Show Summary
In this episode, Lisa Jansen shares her transformative journey from a conventional lifestyle to embracing the freedom of life on the road. She discusses the motivations behind her decision to become a digital nomad, the challenges and rewards of living in a campervan, and how this lifestyle change influenced her writing and personal development. Lisa offers insights into the realities of full-time travel, the importance of following one’s passions, and the lessons learned from stepping away from societal expectations. Her story serves as an inspiration for those contemplating alternative ways of living and seeking fulfillment beyond traditional norms.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Embracing Alternative Lifestyles – Choosing a path that aligns with personal values and desires.
- ✓ Digital Nomadism – Balancing remote work with the freedom of full-time travel.
- ✓ Personal Growth Through Adventure – How stepping out of comfort zones fosters self-discovery.
- ✓ Writing as a Creative Outlet – Utilizing writing to process experiences and inspire others.
- ✓ Challenging Societal Norms – Redefining success and happiness on one’s own terms.
What You’ll Find on Lisa’s Website
- ✓ Books – Publications exploring alternative lifestyles, personal development, and life on the road in New Zealand.
- ✓ Life Done Differently Blog – Articles and stories about embracing unconventional living and adventures.
- ✓ Speaking Engagements – Information on Lisa’s talks and workshops on topics like digital nomadism and personal growth.
- ✓ Photography – Visual documentation of her travels and the beauty of New Zealand.
- ✓ Contact Information – Ways to connect with Lisa for collaborations, interviews, or personal insights.
Learn more about Life Done Differently and connect with Lisa at:
https://www.lifedonedifferently.com/
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Jason Elkins (00:05.838)
So welcome, everybody, to another episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast. So excited to have all of you back here. And today, we’re here with Lisa Jansen She’s in New Zealand. She is an author.
a digital nomad and just kind of is re-imagining things for a lot of people and sharing her story as she goes. She’s currently in New Zealand and really has spent quite a bit of time traveling around New Zealand and look forward to hearing more about that. Lisa, welcome to the show. So happy to have you here. Awesome, thanks so much for having me, Jason. Really looking forward to having a chat. Yeah, this is great. So you actually came to my attention. Someone else that I had reached out to said, Oh, I’ve got this lady named Lisa. She’s been-
just doing her own thing in New Zealand. And it has probably more information about New Zealand than I could ever capture in my lifetime. And so New Zealand’s just a fascinating place. I have spent some time there, fell in love with the place. And so I look forward to hearing about that. But honestly, more importantly, I’m more interested in your story just as like, how does people do that? Because I know I’m a digital nomad. I’ve been traveling full-time for two years. And I know that with…
my family and people in my life. I think I’m a little crazy. So I suspect you probably had some of the same feedback. So before you were a digital nomad, what were you doing? Yeah, so I’m actually quite as a normal life. So long story short, I grew up in Germany. I came to New Zealand when I was 22, about 17 years ago now, which tells you how old I am. So came to New Zealand. Nobody’s counting, I’m not counting.
Jason Elkins (02:31.07)
It was supposed to be for just two semesters study abroad, you know, as you do, lots of people go, you know, overseas during their studies. But I ended up staying and originally I sort of ended up extending. So I’m going to do another semester and then I’m going to do another year. And then, you know, before you know it, yeah, you know, New Zealand become home. And so, you know, very much other than that, you know, very normal life. I got a degree in management international business from the University of Auckland.
I had worked part-time in marketing roles throughout my studies. And so when I finished uni, I decided that I was going to pursue a career in marketing. So I got, you know, a typical sort of entry level marketing executive job, and then worked my way up in that company for a few years and then to a different company. And so just, you know, very much on that normal sort of career path. And was doing really well, you know, definitely someone very passionate about my work and
and you know was doing pretty well and then you know all of that led to me being 33 um you know having done really well in my career but kind of just asking myself those big questions you know the um what’s next what am i doing with my life what’s going to make me happy what do i want to achieve and of course you know being 33 um looking around me like all my friends were getting married having kids buying houses you know really focused on
progressing their careers. And even though I sort of, you know, I thought that was beautiful and I loved seeing it happen for them and I love all the kids. But yeah, it just wasn’t, you know, I didn’t feel drawn to that. And at the time it wasn’t that I was like, oh, I definitely don’t want that. It was more like, actually, you know, what else is there? Like, what can you do with your life if you don’t want to follow that path? And so that kind of then sort of snowballed.
And originally I decided to just take a summer off from work. And, and so I made that decision pretty much spilled the moment. I bought a camper van and I said, I’m going to take a summer off and I’m going to travel around New Zealand. And I’m just going to figure out like, who am I when I’m not working, you know, 40, 50 hours a week in an office and that really sort of busy life in the city where you go constantly bombarded with all these messages around, you know, who you should be and what you should want.
Jason Elkins (04:54.522)
And yeah, it’s just, I’m gonna see what happens when I step out of that. And that, you know, it’s summer traveling around in New Zealand has now turned into six years traveling around New Zealand. And yeah, so here we are. I love that it’s kind of a repeat, right? Because when you went to New Zealand the first time is I’ll be here, you know, a few months, whatever. And then it changes. What’s great about that is just being open to the possibilities, right? Totally. Sometimes we think we have to have this
this plan and you kind of touched on it with career, family, owning the right house, the right car that people have their lives all planned out. And there’s something really special to be said for anybody that’s able to say, you know what? I don’t know where this is gonna go, but I’m just feeling, I’m feeling drawn to it. Was there a particular moment, I was just actually speaking with somebody
that was, you know, kind of told me his specific moment of when he’s like, okay, it was kind of same thing. He’s like doing the normal job. And then it’s like, okay, this is not it. I belong. Um, he was describing looking, you know, he’s in a tall, uh, sky rise in Santiago doing banking and finance stuff. And he said he looked out the window and saw some guy down walking on the street with shorts, flip flops, a backpack, and a surfboard strapped to the back. And he’s like,
He said he basically walked right to his boss’s office and gave notice was, do you remember some specific moments like that, that just really like, okay, this is it, I gotta do it now or I’m not gonna do it or anything like that come up for you? It wasn’t that specific moment that sort of made the decision, but there was a very specific moment that sort of kickstarted it all for me. And that was…
We have an amazing group of friends. We’re all into water sports and nature. And so we used to a lot more than we do now, but go away on weekends together and have these awesome fun and adventure and activity weekends. And so for Easter that year, back in 2017, we went away. And it was sort of that weekend where it really hit home for me how much things were changing and how they were all on this specific path in life. And it’s sort of, you know,
Jason Elkins (07:10.846)
it felt a bit like the kids were starting to outnumber us and the energy and feeling around the group was changing. And so that was like, for me, the moment that made me sort of pause and look at it, okay, clearly, things are changing. We’re no longer a bunch of independent singles just doing whatever the hell we want. And what does that mean for me? Do I want to follow that path? And if I do, then…
what does that look like or what else? So I do remember that moment very specifically. And then from there, it really just snowballed. And then the decision to buy the camper van and live and travel in it for a while, it was really, I have no idea where it came from. People ask me this a lot, and a lot of them sort of seem to expect some kind of story of a friend was doing it, or I saw something on Instagram or whatever, but.
I don’t know, I have no idea. It was just like, but it was one of those ideas where, you know, I had the idea and it just felt right. You know, I just like was, it turned from an idea to a plan within like two minutes, you know? It was just right. That was it. I knew that’s what I needed to do. And so from there, you know, everything just kind of fell into place and I was just on a mission. Like nothing was gonna stop me. I was gonna make this happen.
I knew that, you know, that’s what I had to do. Yeah. Did you, sometimes when we have a moment like that, we realize we get to change our group, our tribe, our friends. And sometimes we don’t, sometimes we maintain these relationships. Maybe nobody else understands us, but we still maintain those relationships. I’m curious, were you able to, did you have a desire to find a new tribe, to find-
Like when you’re in your camper van, were you actively like, I need to find other people that have this same thing going on in your heads? What was that like? Yeah, so it was really interesting. So I’m someone who’s very good at doing stuff on her own. I’m just like one of those people who’s like perfectly happy and comfortable to do just about anything on my own. And a lot of the time actually prefers to do things on her own, right? So I didn’t.
Jason Elkins (09:31.638)
didn’t necessarily go looking for that. And also, you know, even though my friends and I were on different paths, they’re still my friends. And you know, they’re still a big part of my life and mean a lot to me. But so I didn’t necessarily go looking for a different tribe with different people. But what happened, what was really cool enough, you know, since hits were similar stories from other people is once I stepped out of that, like, so called normal life and
and did something a bit different. And especially once it sort of became a longer term thing and not just this thing that I do for a summer, I started to connect to people, some that I met in person or you meet online, like things through social media. And I was writing a blog and all that stuff. So you started connecting with people from all over the world. And I started to realize that, hey, I’m not the only one who feels that way because for a while there for me, it was literally felt like
I was the only person who didn’t want to do the settle down, have kids, you know, kind of life. And that was sort of felt really lonely. But then you take yourself out of that and you put yourself in the environment you want to be in and you do the things you want to do. And then I realized actually, you know, there’s this real awesome global community that has, you know, such similar values and goals than I have. And I’ve connected with so many amazing people.
over the years and it’s just been amazing. You know, it just, yeah, it makes you feel more connected and valued. And so yeah, so it’s been a huge part of the journey. Absolutely. I get that completely. It completely resonates. I’m a little older than you are. And I started my full-time journey a couple of years ago, just traveling full-time. And I think the last few years before I started traveling full-time, I was like,
Honestly, I was like, what is wrong with me? You know, I’ll be vulnerable. I was like, what is wrong with me? Why is everybody else around me is like, Jason, what is your problem? Why are you so restless? Why like, can’t you just be happy? Like, you’re not supposed to be happy. It’s a job. It’s not supposed to be enjoyable. You’re just supposed to do it. And why don’t you want to buy a house? Why don’t you want to, you know, live in Arizona for the rest of your life? And, and I honestly, there were moments I was just like, man, something’s wrong.
Jason Elkins (11:52.342)
I’m just like, maybe I need a therapist or something. And then once I did it and I made the move and I started seeing other people that had done the same thing and they seemed like normal people. They didn’t seem like they needed a therapist. They seemed happy. I was like, oh, and then all of a sudden I was happy. And so yeah, I can resonate with that. It’s almost like I didn’t know that I needed that. But as I…
traveled more, especially the full time. Cause there’s, I’ve always traveled. I’ve always, you know, I’ve worked in tourism for a long time and I always knew that was something that really had a strong draw for me. And I would lead a group. I go with the group. I go somewhere, but then I’d come home. And when you start traveling full time, it’s like, okay, this is interesting. And I like it. And I don’t feel weird. And the people I meet don’t think I’m weird cause they’re doing the same thing. And it’s
So definitely kind of that. Okay. I found my tribe and I still run into people. Because as I travel, I run into people that live wherever I’m traveling that. I mean, I can’t tell you how many times I get the question. Well, where do you live? Well, that’s a complicated. That’s a little hard, you know, and for most people that like, it’s just a simple question. Like, where do you live? Yeah. Oh, they think it’s simple. And I’m like, and I’m just struggling. I’m like,
How do I describe this in a way that doesn’t sound like I’m just going to say I’m homeless? Um, actually funny story. I was back visiting, uh, my son lives in Arizona and I spent a lot of time with him. He’s been able to travel with me and I go back and visit him in Arizona periodically. And I was back there at the beginning of the school year and she had a, an event at the school and with, you know, kind of get to know the teachers type of thing. And his mom and I always still get along great and we’re there with him.
And his teachers started chatting with us and asking questions. And somehow we got to the question of, oh, well, where do you live? Because I think my son had said, oh, my dad travels a lot. And she said, well, where do you live? And I just real kind of off the cuff said, oh, I’m pretty much homeless. And my son with like the look of terror on his eyes. And he looked at me, he said, yeah, explain, explain yourself.
Jason Elkins (14:17.486)
I was like, oh yeah, from his perspective, me telling his teacher that I’m homeless probably is not how he wants to start the school year. So we had to have that conversation. And it was a reminder that what I think is cool, maybe not everybody else thinks is cool. So I get that. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. And so you told me last time we spoke, you did the camper for quite a while.
And then you’ve kind of transitioned, you’d mentioned that you’re taking a different approach now. So tell us about that, what prompted you to do that and what is the difference between living in a camper that’s moving around and doing what you’re doing now? Yeah, so last year after four and a half years in the camper van traveling around, I decided to sell the camper. And it was again, a little bit sort of a spur of the moment-ish decision.
I sound like a very spontaneous person now. I’m really not. I just seem to like occasionally make these sort of spontaneous decisions. I’m gonna go live in a van. That’s a big decision. That’s not like, I think I’m gonna have pizza tonight. There were a number of things.
The van was getting old and needed a lot of repairs and that was always really stressful because when it’s your home and your vehicle and then it’s at the workshop for who knows how long, it’s a really stressful situation. And also the pandemic wasn’t easy. New Zealand had a very strict and very hard response to it, including we weren’t allowed to travel even within New Zealand for.
and two very long stints. And so just a few things that have happened that kind of just, yeah, I just got to a point where I felt like, you know what? I think it’s time for change. And at the time I thought I wanted to settle down and looking back now, I think I actually realized that it was other people and other influences sort of telling me, that’s what I should want. And it just sort of,
Jason Elkins (16:28.974)
I want to change and then that just seemed like the logical thing to do. It’s like, okay, yeah, so you’ve done the wild and crazy thing now. Now you settle down and you stay put. But then that didn’t really happen and I sort of didn’t really want to in the end. And so what happened is that house sitting opportunities came up. So I had done a bit of house sitting while I was traveling in the van occasionally, especially over winter, it was nice sometimes to.
get out of the van and have a house for a while. And then when I sold the van, I thought I’ll just house it for a bit around Auckland and just figure out where I maybe want to rent or what I want to do. But then, yeah, housing opportunities just kept coming up. And before I knew it, I had, was booked out for six months. And then another sort of three months. And so now it’s been a year and two months since I sold the van. And I’ve basically been
have sitting full time and initially, you know, stayed close to Auckland, but then was like, Oh, you know, this is actually just another great way to travel. So, so then I started to, you know, look for house, it’s all over the country and have been moving around every, the longest one I’ve done this, this winter. So in New Zealand, so we’re coming into summer and our seasons are the other way around. So just this recent winter I was in Nelson.
for 15 weeks, which is the longest I’ve been anywhere in six years. And so that was a bit of a- Nelson’s pretty great. I have been there. I really like Nelson. Yeah. So it was great. But even at the end of that, I was definitely ready to move on. I love Nelson and it was great to sort of have that stability for 15 months. But by the end of that, I was like, yeah, I think it’s time to move on. And so most of the time I move every four to six weeks. It’s like my sweet spot. That’s sort of perfect for me. Sometimes it’s shorter.
Sometimes it’s longer, but yeah. So that’s what I’m doing now. That’s cool. I get that. When you were saying, sometimes I think, well, maybe I should settle down, but is that really what I want? And what came up for me when I heard you saying that was, just even in the last couple of years, there’s times when I start to think, oh, I really like it here. Maybe I should find a little longer term type of Airbnb, or I could stay here.
Jason Elkins (18:50.57)
And then I will catch myself. I’m like subconsciously, I’ll catch myself looking at my phone, looking at plane tickets. I’m like, oh, wait a minute. There’s something going on here. If I’m still looking at plane tickets, trying to figure out where I wanna go next, why am I also thinking maybe I wanna stop? But you’re right, there is pressure for me anyway. I’ve experienced that with.
Even people back home are like, you should settle down somewhere. Not necessarily that they think I should go back to Arizona, but they are so ingrained in their story that they don’t understand, well, how could you really want to just keep moving around? Or you meet people that maybe you enjoy and you’re like, oh, maybe I want to stay around and spend time getting to know these people more. But then there’s also you realize, well, or are they just kind of projecting their own stories on me? That insecurity around, oh.
I tell people I’m homeless or am I sick of describing, you know, because I’m a single guy, I’m out traveling, I meet people. And there’s some stories, actually, and I think you can relate as well. There’s some stories about what should a man be doing? What should a woman be doing in society? What is the expectation? So the guy, you know, the story I think some people have is the guy that
just picks up and keeps traveling, moving around. What’s he doing? You know, what’s wrong with him? Why does he have a, you know, and I’ll be completely open and honest in this, is, you know, I’ve got a 17 year old son back in the US. So who is that guy that’s out traveling the world when his son’s in the US? Well, there’s the other side of it is that my son also spent a summer with me traveling around Central America. And he spent a summer with me traveling around Southeast Asia.
And I’m on WhatsApp video calls with him almost every day. My relationship with him has never been better because I’m happy. He’s excited. He thinks it’s cool that I’m doing, as long as I don’t tell his teacher I’m homeless. He thinks it’s cool. And then I can imagine the scenario as a woman. It’s like probably even more so with a woman. It’s like, what is wrong with you?
Jason Elkins (21:09.57)
Don’t you like guys? Don’t you like people? Don’t you like relationships? What is up with that? And I wasn’t planning to get into this, but I suspect it’s something that you’ve experienced. You wrote a book, right? And I haven’t had an opportunity to read the book, but I have a feeling there’s probably something in there about being an independent woman that’s doing your own thing and maybe some of the societal resistance you’d picked up along the way. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, lots of things to unpack there. So yeah, so the book.
tells that whole story, you know, starting, basically the book starts with that weekend that I talked about earlier, back in 2017, and, you know, asking myself all those questions and then deciding to travel in the van and sort of, you know, really, and one of the great things for me is that through the journey, sometimes through, you know, just my own thoughts and experiences or people I met, I think I sort of got a really interesting perspective on life and…
and society and a lot of those sort of norms and expectations and, and was kind of like in a unique position to really look at that almost like from the outside because, you know, I wasn’t in it anymore. So it’s definitely a lot, you know, of that going on. And I do have to say I was very lucky in that the people around me were always supportive of what I was doing. So I had, it’s very rare for me that I had to deal with, you know, real sort of criticism.
and or doubts usually is from strangers you know it’s usually like strangers who’d be like you know go what you’re doing and whereas you know my friends and my family have always been very supportive and so that’s great and yeah but i think you know the other thing i wanted to say is i think this isn’t for everyone you know like i think a lot of people you know and i think one of the reasons why some people have a hard time sort of understanding
this lifestyle and what we’re doing is because it wouldn’t work for them. And because, you know, they would feel restless and they do, you know, really value and appreciate having that home and that familiar environment. And I think so important to, you know, I’m really big on, you know, do what’s right for you. Like.
Jason Elkins (23:20.362)
You know, my book is called Life Done Differently and it sells my blog. And obviously, you know, that’s about, you know, living in a van and traveling and hosuiting, but also, you know, I always say like, ultimately for me, like life done differently means do life your way, you know, like get to know yourself, figure out what you want and what makes you happy. And then do that, like regardless of what anyone else is doing. And, you know, if you’re someone who is happiest with
you know, that sort of traditional life and the, you know, the two and a half kits and the picket fence and the golden retriever, you know, then do that, like do that and be happy with it. And, you know, so I think it’s, that I think it’s really important to remember, like we’re all different and different things, you know, for us. I absolutely agree because I think that is an important distinction is when I say, I can’t sit still, I want to go travel.
people don’t understand me, that doesn’t mean that I’m criticizing the person that doesn’t want to do that. I get it. I’ve been surrounded by people that prefer not to do what I’m doing for most of my life. And I have no ill feelings at all. It’s like, that’s awesome. I’m happy that you’re happy. I couldn’t be, you know, I’m not gonna lie. There were times I wished that I could, you know. Yeah, me too. And I do think it changes too, right? Because I do have to say,
I’m loving my lifestyle, but I do think, and I tend to change my mind a lot at the moment about what I’m gonna do next, but I do think that they will come a time for me where I will settle down or stay put somewhere for a while. And the main reason for me would be, and I’ve actually heard a lot of nomads talk about this when you get to the sort of five, six, seven year stage.
And it’s the community piece, right? Like you’re, when you’re constantly on the move, but I’ve met amazing people, but it is really hard to actually form connections and community because by nature, nomads are always on the move, always on the go. And, and you know, little things like I, I’m near Christchurch at the moment, which is New Zealand’s second biggest city. And I’ve gotten, you know, two friends here and I was catching up with them and they were telling me how, you know,
Jason Elkins (25:39.806)
one’s doing a, um, what, like a class, I think it was, um, woodworking or, you know, some like course like that. And the other one was telling me about like, you know, brooks and things, dragon boat racing that, that she’s doing. And, you know, it’s those sort of things where sometimes that things like, Oh, actually, you know, I do miss that. I do miss being in a community and getting involved with these sort of things. You know, I miss having, um,
that coffee shop, you know, where you walk in and they know your name and they know how you like your coffee, you know, just that sort of like feeling. And so I do miss it. And I think that is the biggest downside of the nomadic lifestyle for me anyway. And so that’s, you know, I can definitely see myself get to a point where the desire to have that at least for a while will outweigh the desire to travel and keep moving.
One that’ll be is a different question, but yeah. Well, and we all, you know, it’s different stages of life. Some of us, and that’s not necessarily an aging, it’s not like, oh, well, when you’re older, you’re gonna be responsible because it might work the other way around. I’d say probably in some regards, it worked the other way around for me. Definitely. And I would say the biggest mistake, not the biggest mistake I made, but the biggest mistake that I think I could see people making,
is that selling all your stuff, telling everybody, I’m gonna go travel the world for five years. You sell all your stuff, you just, you know, maybe you not terminate some relationships, but people do, I mean, realistically. And they’re just so convinced that that’s what it is, that they make it very, it’s like they make it very hard to change their mind.
And I personally think that one of the best values of being a nomad and living this lifestyle is the ability to change your mind. So if you can maybe not burn all the bridges, and this is for anybody that’s listening, that’s thinking this way, it’s like, maybe you don’t really have to sell everything. Maybe you can hang onto your car and park it at your parents for a while.
Jason Elkins (27:54.958)
Yeah. Maybe not tell everybody you’re going to go for five years. Just say, you know what, I’m going to go for a few months. Because I’ve met so many people and a lot of conversations with people that were like, yep, I was going to do this forever. And then six months in, I was like crying in my Airbnb because I was so lonely. Couldn’t meet anybody. Um, you know, couldn’t connect because I hadn’t learned language. It’s, you know, it can be stressful. Um,
living out of a suitcase can be incredibly stressful. And you don’t know if it’s for you until you’ve done it a little bit. So I just always tell people, just take a few months, don’t get rid of everything. Definitely. Because then if you wanna go back, you can go back. You don’t have to feel like, oh, I’m so embarrassed. Because if you tell everybody you’re going for a few years and then you come back after six months, some people might feel like they’ve failed on some level. Yeah, totally agree with you. And it’s actually, you know, when
I sometimes get asked, you know, what sort of tips or advice I would give someone who wants to kind of, you know, maybe break free from the traditional life. And, and one of the things I tend to say is you start small. Like one of the best things, cause for me, like even right from the beginning, I sort of had this idea in the back of my mind that it might be more than just the summer. But by just saying it’s just for a summer, you know, it just de-risk the whole thing for myself and for everyone around me.
And so I just kind of say, it’s just for summer. And if I’d hated it, I could have just gone back. And that things really would have been lost much. So that’s definitely agree with that. Like anyone sort of thinking about that. I just like start small, go for a few months and see if you like it. And I think you’ll get less resistance from the people around you as well. Totally. Because that resistance, because if you make the decision, I’m doing this and you’ve got it in your head, you’re gonna do it for five years.
and people around you think you’re crazy, most people are gonna come up with all kinds of validation, all kinds of reasoning and justification for why they’re doing it. So they say all these things, I’ve always wanted to do this, it’s so important to me, da da, to try and justify why they’re doing it. And then, so then six months in or a year in, and they’re like, this is horrible, I’m lonely, what am I doing? But it’s really hard.
Jason Elkins (30:19.858)
if you’ve been trying to convince everybody else and yourself that this is a good choice. It’s really hard to change directions at that point. And I suspect there’s a lot of nomads out there that have been in it two or three years when in reality they knew like a year in that they’d made a mistake, but they’re too proud or they’ve, you know, they don’t want to admit to their families that they don’t want to feel like they were wrong. And if you just say, I’m going for three months and then you come back, there’s, you don’t have to admit you’re wrong. You’re just like, I can’t just leave you for three months.
Yeah, yeah, it’s so true. And the whole lifestyle definitely gets sort of, you know, romanticized quite a bit on, you know, social media and, and other, you know, people only share the best of it. And so it looks like this, you know, endless vacation and fun and beach and parties. And there’s just a lot more to it, right. So I think some people just go into it maybe with the, you know, wrong expectations, or don’t think about like how
you know, that lifestyle fits with their personality and their values. You’re right. And on the flip side, if you just do three months and you go out there and you’re like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. This is incredible. I’m so happy I did this. It’s gonna be much easier to then go to other people and say, you know what? I was only gonna be through like you did. It was only gonna be three months, but I’m having so much fun. Then you don’t have to feel like you need to justify it. It’s like, I’m happy.
Just say I’m happy. I’m doing it. I’m happy. I’m going to keep doing it. And if people care about you and love you, they might not understand, but they’re much more likely to say, well, OK, at least you tried it and you’re not just running away running away. Right. Because that’s the thing I think a lot of people run into is like, I heard it. What are you running away from? I’m like, I don’t think I’m running. It didn’t feel like running away, but.
But then you start to question yourself, well, am I running away from something? So yeah, the short start is probably a good thing too. Had you written any, were you writing before you decided to write your book? Have you written other books? What was that all about? Yeah, so this was actually one of the sort of cool, unexpected things that happened on my journey. So I’ve.
Jason Elkins (32:32.222)
I’ve always written in the sense that I’ve always had journals and writings always sort of been like my way of thinking and processing and you know how I communicate the best. But I hadn’t written any books and it’s always been you know I think a lot of people can sort of relate to this right a lot of people say I would love to write a book one day right. So I used to be like that and they always but it always felt like something I might do when I’m retired or you know like it just didn’t you know seem like.
So I dreamed about it, but I never actually thought I’d actually do it. And then I set off in my van and I had the most amazing first summer. I was just like adventure and travel and it was awesome. And then that summer sort of started to turn into autumn and things slowed down a little bit. And I started to travel a lot slower and I started to really appreciate the having time. So the first time I was all about excitement, but then that…
in autumn, I really started to appreciate what it feels like to have time for things. At the time, I was working 15-ish hours a week, which covered all my bills because living in a van is cheap. So I just had time for things and time to think and time to just sit there and drink coffee and enjoy the view, those sort of things. And just really, really appreciated that. And I still…
say that is the most valuable lesson I’ve learned from Van Life. It’s the value of time and how great it feels to have time and all that stuff. Anyway, so then I was in this really amazing phase where just ideas were flowing and I was feeling really, had this real clarity. In the book, I describe it as it felt like
fog had been lifted from my life that I didn’t even know was there. And so, you know, I’ve before been like, I would have told you, I’m like, focused, and I see things clearly, and I’m productive, right. And then but then I was in this situation where all the stress and that crazy busy city life was removed. And all of a sudden, I was like, man, this is what clarity is like. And like, this is what you know, it’s like to really be in the moment. And, and, and so then that
Jason Elkins (34:53.122)
kind of led to the idea for my first book, which is called, One Size Does Not Fit All. And so talks about the importance of getting to know yourself, understanding your personality and your values and your strengths and weaknesses, and then building a life plan and figuring out what makes you happy rather than listening to the often generic headlines and research that says, people are happier when they’re married or people are happier when they own a dog.
you know, those sort of statements that are true for the majority. But when you look at the studies, you know, it’s often actually a fairly small majority, you know, it’s, um, really more than 60%, right? Which means there’s a huge chunk of people who, you know, might love dogs, but are still happier without a dog. Um, yeah. Yeah. So that was kind of the, the first, you know, the idea for the first book just sort of happened.
And then I was just writing a book, you know, I hadn’t really planned to do that. But it was just one of those things that happened when I had the time and had that clarity. And, and, and then get an opportunity to write another one a couple of years later. And then the newest one, caught life done differently, which is the memoir that tells, you know, the story of the whole journey is the third one now. So yeah. I loved what you were saying about just
Different people, we have different things for whatever reason. And we can look at, I’m going to use the example of dogs. There’s different breeds of dogs out there. And it’s really easy for us to look and say, OK, well, golden retrievers are this way. Rat terriers are this way. Chihuahuas are this way. And we just kind of accept that different types of dogs have different things about them, different traits.
They’re all still dogs. They can all still intermingle and genetically all this stuff. But it’s easy for us to see, oh, well, it’s a gold retriever. So of course, they like to run out and grab things and bring it back to you. But when it comes to people, we just expect everybody to fit in the same box. And so you’ve got some people that just are the types that need to travel. Maybe we can call them ADHD, whatever.
Jason Elkins (37:12.726)
You know, we say, oh, this person’s ADHD, can’t get enough, can’t sit still, needs a lot of stimulation. I’m not talking about you. I might be talking about me, but I’m not talking about you. And instead of just accepting, oh, this person has different needs, different desires, different things they’re looking for. It’s like, how do we figure out how to make this person fit in, you know, to sit in a school classroom for, you know, six to eight hours a day so they can prepare to go work in a factory later on in life.
or whatever. And I’d read some people, you know, just some things about like kind of the hunter gatherers, as opposed to the agricultural type economy. Some people are better farmers, other people are better hunters. And the farmers are typically the types that are more likely to have that consistency and comfort and predictability and staying in one place. And a person that does well.
with staying in one place and doing the same thing every day does well in an agricultural type of economy. But the person that does well in the hunter gatherer where they wanna go out and looking for something in the woods and that uncertainty, it’s really hard for them to sit there and harvest, tend to a crop or domesticated animals or whatever. And I thought that was pretty fascinating looking at it and to just be able to accept that some people just need to kind of keep moving.
And it doesn’t mean that something’s wrong with them. Just means that they’re not a golden retriever. Yeah. So I’m happy you brought that up. I wanna read your books. I just talked to you like yesterday for the first time. Yesterday, day four. So I did not have a chance to prepare for this. And when I spoke with you, I knew immediately, I was like, okay, this is an adventure travel podcast. I’m interviewing a lot of tour operators.
about trips, about specific, you know, go climb Mount Kilimanjaro, go scuba diving in the Pacific, that type of thing. And I think that somebody that, you know, like yourself, that is just traveling full-time, I mean, I suspect there’s a lot of adventure travelers that would love to do what you’re doing. Because that’s like the ultimate adventure travel. You know, you’re not tied to as, you know, you’re not trying to fit it into, you know, your Kilimanjaro track in your…
Jason Elkins (39:37.678)
you know, one month that you got vacation or you’re sabbatical or whatever. So that’s why I really wanted to have you come onto the show. Cause I know there’s people out there that are just like, oh man, love to just go live in a van. Live in a van down by the river, you know? Whatever jokes are around that, but I think it’s cool. And one thing that came up in our conversation as well, cause I asked you, is like, why, why New Zealand? Like, cause some people,
travel worldwide, they put everything in a bag, and you chose to primarily really get to know New Zealand. And I asked you why, and you had a response that I just like, oh, duh, that was pretty obvious. So I’m gonna ask you that again, now that we have the benefit of me pushing the record button here a few minutes ago. So why New Zealand and not in a different country every four or five weeks?
Yeah, good question. I get asked this a lot. There’s a few reasons. The first one really is it’s New Zealand. I mean, anyone who’s ever been here or just look at the pictures, it is the most amazing place in the world. I feel like I should get paid by Tourism New Zealand these days. Yeah, by the way, this episode is sponsored by Tourism New Zealand. I need to reach out to them later and convince them to sponsor it. But thank you for bringing that up. But you’re right. It is an amazing place.
Look, it’s just, and what makes it like, it is an amazing country, full stop. What makes it like amazing for, you know, van life or RV travel specifically, is that you just have so much in a relatively small country. You know, we’ve got the oceans, obviously, we’ve got the mountains, we’ve got lakes, we’ve got forests, you know. So if you’re like me and you love nature and the outdoors, you know, then everything’s here.
and everything’s sort of driving distance. You know, you don’t have to spend days crossing a desert or something, right? You just sort of drive a few hours down the road and then you’ve got the next sort of amazing spot. And, you know, it’s been almost six years for me now and I still haven’t seen everything that I wanna see. You know, there’s still a few places I haven’t been to. There’s a lot of places I wanna go back to. So that’s a big part of it. I just love New Zealand.
Jason Elkins (41:57.406)
And, but then the other part, and we talked about this yesterday when we caught up. So I’m really into sort of just being active in nature. And so even, you know, right now I have a bike with me. I’ve got a stand-up pedal board and a surfboard. I’m a kite surfer. So I’ve got, you know, three kites and a kite board and all of that. And I’ve got my hiking gear and I love having all of that. And I love, you know, being just anywhere in the country and just, you know, having.
having that opportunity to go on a bike ride or, you know, take the pedal board out or go hike up the mountain. And, and, and if I would start to go overseas, I’d have to, you know, leave most of that behind, you know, you can take sort of, you know, maybe one, you know, I could maybe take the, the kites, you know, pack down. So I could take maybe one or two of those, but everything else would have to stay behind. And so, so that’s actually, you know, probably the biggest reason.
It’s just so convenient to travel in New Zealand. Everything fits in my car, and I’ve got all this stuff with me. And I also have to say that the third reason probably is that I do, even though I live this quiet, adventurous life, I guess, for a lot of people, I am actually a creature of habit. And so I quite like, in a way, being in this environment that feels familiar.
Um, so if I would, you know, start to travel overseas a lot, I think I would feel overwhelmed quite quickly. You know, all the, like everything being so different and so new would be exciting for a few weeks. But I think permanently, I’m the sort of person where I would start to feel overwhelmed by that quite easily. Um, but maybe I’ll find out one day. No, you see, very self-aware. I think that’s important. And that’s, I think that’s what you get out of traveling alone. Sometimes it’s like things come up.
that really you’ve got to look at, okay, why am I feeling this way about that? You’re able to work through so much because when you’re with somebody else all the time or you’re in a work environment, that’s, you know, it’s so easy to distract yourself. But when you have time, like you said, I mean, if you feel like you’ve got enough time to sit down and write a book, you’re processing stuff as you write, obviously. And if you don’t write, if you’re just not a writer, guess what? You’re still going to process that stuff.
Jason Elkins (44:19.598)
Yeah, it’s differently. Yeah. And you learn so much about yourself. I, oh my gosh, I’ve learned so much in the last two years about myself, things that I just never would have thought. I like, if somebody had told me two years ago, Jason, you have this particular insecurity or this particular hangup or this whatever. I’d be like, ah, you don’t know what you’re talking about. And now I’m like, yeah, I can sit down and write a whole list. I meet somebody, you know, I’m single, I’m dating. I, it’s actually a problem. I would not suggest this to anybody that’s single trying to date.
you can become so self-aware that you think, oh, I should just share with everybody I meet all of my little things that I’ve figured out the last three years. And most people think that’s weird. Most people are like, hello. Too much too soon. Hello. Like they haven’t had five minutes alone. If they’re not travelers, they haven’t had five minutes alone to really think about their hangups in their whole life.
And then you’ve got somebody like me shows up who’s had an awful lot of time alone to think about stuff. And yeah, you got to you got to balance that know your audience right as a writer, I think you probably are ahead of me on that one. Maybe I should maybe should look at that. Anyway, fascinating stuff. Don’t worry I’m about the last person is going to give anyone dating advice. In a previous life I used to do that.
Jason Elkins (45:44.178)
I don’t do it anymore because I realized I have too much stuff I’ve got to figure out about myself to be trying to help anybody else see their way through it. But I’ve learned a lot. What is this because I have so many fond memories of New Zealand and since you didn’t grow up there you probably still remember when you got there what were those two or three things that you just thought wow that’s really weird coming from Germany. Do you remember anything? Because I remember a couple things but I wasn’t there as long.
So what do you remember about New Zealand when you first got there, you thought that’s weird, that people might not expect? Anything? People go bare feet everywhere, you know, in summer. Like in the supermarket, you can go bare feet in the supermarket. Whereas, you know, I did that in Germany once a few years ago. I was back in Germany in summer and I didn’t think about it. And my sister was so embarrassed. And she said, you can’t do that. So.
Yeah, I get German culture is a little different, right? Yeah, I can see that. That’s probably one thing. People, like lots of little things, you know, people bring food. So if you get invited to, you know, a barbecue or something at a friend’s house in Germany, and you know, that’s really all I can compare it to, right? But in Germany, if you would show up with food, it would sort of be considered a bit of a
a little bit insulting. It’s like, oh, you don’t think my cooking was good enough that you need to bring your own food? It depends on your circle as well. Whereas in New Zealand, you bring food, you can’t show up empty handed. You bring food or you bring beers or something. So yeah, those little things. Some of the accents are quite funny. New Zealand’s definitely got a bit of a unique.
accent and not just accent, but also like language, you know, words like no worries and sweet as and you know, where in the beginning I was like, what the hell? It’s interesting you mentioned that because yesterday you and I had that conversation when you told me you’re from Germany is to me. And I suspect to a lot of our listeners that haven’t spent a lot of time in New Zealand, you sound absolutely Kiwi. Like I’m like anybody listening is like, yeah, she sounds like when you talk about accents, you have that accent.
Jason Elkins (48:07.914)
But you’d mentioned that Kiwis can tell that you’re not necessarily from there. Yeah, they know right away. And I’ve spent maybe a total of a month there and I can’t tell the difference. So you’re anyway. I remember one of the things that I thought was, I don’t know why I remember this, but I went into a convenience store or maybe a little grocery store and they had a bag of chips that was like mint and honey chips, potato chips.
mint and honey flavored potato chips. I thought that was so cool. I bought like three bags. I was driving so many like three bags. I’m driving down the road. It was, uh, I thought that was cool. And the thing I remember just, it was just different as in Nelson, I went to this place. I don’t remember even what the place was, but they had this little creek or something and it was full of, uh, the eels.
Yeah. And you could go and feed the eels and they’d like climb up on the rocks and you can almost, I think we’re feeding them with our hands or something. Yeah. There’s just cool stuff there that Quite a few places around New Zealand. But I just thought it was cool. And then of course the scenery is just my goodness. Do you, if you had to live in one spot for a year in New Zealand, where would it be?
So right now for the first time in like six years, I can actually answer that question. It’ll change again, but I could never answer that question because there’s just so many amazing places. But I was just very lucky. I was house sitting in a place called Port Levy, which is on the Banks Peninsula. So if you look at New Zealand South Island, sort of probably two-thirds down, there’s like a little peninsula that pokes out on the East Coast. And that’s called the Banks
Jason Elkins (49:59.198)
And I was house sitting there in this beautiful bay, you know, Green Hills, and then the ocean, and you know, farming and like a little settlement sort of, you know, probably like two, three handful of houses. And but it was just so beautiful and so peaceful. And and that was I was just like, I just want to stay here. So it’s right now, you know, I had to go somewhere for a year, I, I want to go there and just, you know, spend a year there. But yeah, but
Honestly, there’s so many amazing places and it’s probably one of the reasons why I haven’t settled down yet is because I don’t know where I want to be because there’s just way too many good options to choose from. Got it. If someone was going to fly to New Zealand, rent a car, drive around for a month, first time in New Zealand, what advice would you give them? Yeah, cool. And I know it depends on what they like, but just in general terms.
I’ll just pull out some highlights and then people can just, you know, make up their minds, which they want to do. But most people fly into Auckland. So Auckland’s New Zealand’s biggest city, towards the top of the North Island. So from there, you know, if you’ve got the time, definitely worthwhile going north, just Bay of Islands, and then Cape Renga, which is, you know, the very far north, just really beautiful, lots of beautiful beaches and bays. And, and then you can come down in the West coast and
You can stop at the, we’ve got the ancient trace. He has like massive, Kauri trace. And that, you know, you can like drive through the forest there and visit those. And so that’s sort of like north of- You said it, what was the name of that? You said Kauly trace? Kauri, with an R. K-A-U-R-I. Okay. And what is trace? Help us out. Those that don’t know the word trace. I think I know what it is. Trees.
trees and like the green stuff that grows in a forest. I’ve heard of those. It’s that Kiwi accent. All right. Did you say it with a German accent? OK, I got you. All right. If you Google big trees. Curry trees. Yeah. Right? Yeah. If you Google big tree New Zealand, you’ll see it. OK. All right. Sorry. So that’s like North of Auckland. And then from there, if you, anyone, I think if you come to New Zealand,
Jason Elkins (52:24.022)
to go and learn about the Maori culture. So the Maori’s are the New Zealand and the original people of New Zealand. And we’re actually very good these days in New Zealand to value that and celebrate that. So Rotorua and the North Island is a great place to learn about the culture and experience that. Lots of opportunities around, but Rotorua is sort of the capital of that.
And then through the center of the North Island is Tungarero National Park and the Tungarero Crossing, which is the volcano that Lord of the Rings made famous. So some people might have that as a must see on their list. And then you just keep going south. I would say that if you love nature and beautiful scenery, you’re probably going to enjoy the South Island more. The North
Jason Elkins (53:17.642)
takes it to the next level. And, and so I’m the south island, like Nelson, from Nelson, Abel Tasman National Park, it’s just beautiful. It’s great hiking there. And, and, you know, then you go either down the East Coast or the West Coast, and lots of, you know, tiny little towns and Kaikoura on the East Coast is famous for whale watching and, you know, swimming with dolphins and lots of seals, you know, you got to watch for you step, there’s always so many seals around and
And yeah, and then honestly, you just keep going, keep going south. And the lakes, you know, I really love Lake Tekapo and Lake Kukaki, which is sort of the center, center middle of the South Island. And Lake Kukaki is where Mount Cookers is our biggest mountain. So you’ve got these brazy blue crystal clear lakes and then the snow kept mountains and green hills around it. It’s all just beautiful.
And then you gotta go to Queenstown. Queenstown is so, you know, it’s called the adventure capital of the world. I was going to ask you about that because there’s something specific that when I was there, they said that it’s where it started. It was like the first place that they did it. Do you know what I’m talking about? Bungee jumping. Yeah, right? Yeah. I remember that. So I have bungee jumped before in the past. I did not bungee jump on when I went through there, but I stopped and watched them.
watched them jump for a while and yeah, it’s pretty cool. Have you done it? Now I have an afternoon skydiving. I’m really scared of bungee jumping for some reason. That sort of, that moment where the bungee is pulled and pulls you back, something about that just doesn’t sit right with me at all. It’s actually really, it’s really freaky because if you don’t think about it ahead of time, you jump and you’re like, you expect to feel, you know, when you get to the end of it, you expect to feel yourself stop. In your mind, you expect to feel yourself stop.
What you don’t realize is that as the cord, I guess, retracts and lifts you back up a little bit, you don’t feel like you’re going back up. You just feel like you’ve stopped. And then all of a sudden you feel yourself drop again. So you can imagine what goes through your head. You’re like, okay, the court, it caught me. It caught me. I’m safe. And then all of a sudden you’re dropping again. And I remember the first time I did it, I was like, Oh my goodness, it broke.
Jason Elkins (55:43.078)
You know, so anybody that has not bungee jumped, when you do it, keep in mind that when you bounce, it’s going to feel like you got to the end of the rope and then the rope broke. So just a bit of advice. We used to do it. My father is a hot air balloon pilot. We used to do it out of the balloon. Oh gosh. Jumping and oh, I hated it. But I had to do it because my brother, you know, that competitive thing, he was, he would get up on the side of the basket and do flips and
all kinds of fancy tricks and I was terrified, but I had to do it and I still don’t think I would enjoy doing that again. There’s also the kind of the Milford Sound area there down around Fiordland. Have you, there’s a couple of trucks there. Do you have any experience with those? I haven’t done so there’s the world famous Milford Track, which is I think five days.
I think that seems about right. So I haven’t done that, but I’ve done heaps of day trips. And yeah, it’s one of those places that just feels like it’s out of this world, especially for people who maybe usually live in cities or don’t live in places like New Zealand where we have this abundance of beautiful nature. You kind of just get to somewhere like Milford Sound and Fiordland, and it’s just, yeah, just
blows your mind and the nature and the impact and power nature can have. And that’s really amazing. So yeah, Muffet sound definitely. And yeah, you just honestly, I can keep going. No, I know. I was thinking, yeah, you definitely need to get sponsored by the New Zealand Tourism. For those of you listening to this, you’re not able to see Lisa’s face. Maybe you’re seeing this on YouTube at some point, but if you’re listening to the podcast.
I gotta tell you, she’s all lit up. I can’t help but think you’ve been traveling around, you’ve lived there for a long time, you’ve been traveling around extensively for years now and you’re still so excited about it. So I almost feel silly when I ask that question, why only New Zealand? Because I can tell you, you’ve got the passion and you’re right, there’s so much cool stuff to see. The people are amazing. So I’m really happy that you came on to share that with us.
Jason Elkins (58:01.294)
Where can we find your book or your books? Because are they all still available? Yeah. So the books are just about everywhere. You buy your books, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, whatever. So yeah, just look there. The newest ones called Life Done Differently. The first one is One Size Does Not Fit All.
And the middle one, which is called the Nomads Ultimate Guide to New Zealand is more of a travel guide, but that one was written very much for the domestic market. So I don’t actually know if that’s available internationally. But if you can visit New Zealand, you can go to the store and get it. There we go. And so yeah, one of them wherever you get your books. And my website is just life
And I’m on Facebook and Instagram, always loved connecting with other travelers from all over the world. So, you know, please do get attached, reach out. That’s wonderful. And I will have a link to your website in the show notes. So they can connect with you through there and all your different channels. The last question I have that I can think of at the moment, and I remember my experience actually going to New Zealand and getting a rental car like immediately.
And I know a lot of people that live in the States have an issue with like, oh, it’s driving on the left side of the road. So what can you say to, because I think New Zealand’s an amazing place to go and do your own thing. There’s great tour operators, no doubt. I’m sure you could book a tour. But I think New Zealand just lends itself so well to just showing up and driving from town to town. I never felt like I had to book anything very far ahead of time. But I also realized some people are like, immediately are gonna say,
I can’t do that because they drive on the other side of the road. But presumably when you went there from Germany, you had the same experience. I’m sure you’ve had other experiences around that. So what would you tell people that are worried about that? Yeah, I would say, you know, it’s actually because you sit on the other side of the car as well. Right. So it’s not as it doesn’t feel as weird as you might think it does. And I often find the weirdest thing is the indicator and the windscreen wipers are the other way around. So in the beginning, you might want to use.
Jason Elkins (01:00:15.922)
indicate you turn it on your wish your life is every time you go to make it turn happens to me when i’m back in germany now i can we move hey um but i would say that um the roads in new zealand are a bit different like we have a lot of places where and you know roads are still relatively narrow and windy and um you know if you go really remote gravel roads so um be prepared for things to take longer than you think
Jason Elkins (01:00:48.119)
And then I’m sure it’ll be fine. But yeah, I think it’s, some people like look at the distances and things like, oh, I can drive that in two hours, but because our roads aren’t six way highway, six lane highways, but single road, we still have a lot of single lane bridges, that tells you kind of. Uh-huh, okay. So take your time, take it easy. And I just, I thought of another tip on the driving thing. If you’re the passenger,
I’ve done this a few times now. It’s always really awkward. But if you’re the passenger, if you’re from the US or another place where you drive on the other side, on the right side of the road, on the left side of the road, right? I’m totally confused now. But anyway, if you’re sitting as the passenger and you pull up to stop, or the driver pulls up to stop and you go to get out of the car, I’ve noticed it’s a force of habit for me to reach down and put the car in the park.
And it’s really awkward when you do that and you’re not the driver, especially if it’s an Uber driver. Somebody that you don’t know that well. And you’re sitting there just doing your thing, you get to the place and you’re like, oh, I’m here. And you reach over and you put the car in the parking lot and they’re gonna look at you weird, I guarantee it. Cause I’ve done it a few times now. So you might want to sit on your right hand or something. So you don’t do that. Yeah. Another good one is getting in on the wrong side of the car.
you know, because you’re so used to getting in the other one. Oh, are you driving? There’s a way for steering wheel. I get it. Yeah. Well, I look forward to returning to New Zealand at some point and connecting with you there over a beer and some mint flavored lamb potato chips or blue mussels. I remember that. Actually, you got to go look for that. You should. Now you’re going to see it.
Right? There’s that what they call the reticulated activating system. Once you’re aware of something, all of a sudden, you’re going to see it. But anyway, it was a real pleasure having you on the show. Look forward to connecting with you in the future and working on projects together. Is there anything else that you want to share or that I should have asked you that I didn’t ask or something anything that anything at all that you’d like to share? Now, all good. Thank you so much for having me. It’s really awesome to have a chat. I feel like you know, we could go on for a few more hours, but people probably get tired of me raving.
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