Guest Bio
Lucinda Rome is the Founder and Managing Director of Ganders Travel, a bespoke travel company specializing in journeys throughout East and Southern Africa and the Indian Ocean. Her deep connection to Africa began nearly twenty years ago when she climbed Mount Kilimanjaro for charity and followed it with a safari in Kenya’s Masai Mara. What started as a single adventure quickly became a defining turning point in her life and career.
Soon after that first trip, Lucinda moved to Zambia to work in remote bush camps. What was meant to be a five-month experience turned into four formative years working with two of the country’s leading safari operators. After an unexpected injury brought her back home, she redirected her expertise into designing tailor-made African journeys. Drawing on extensive firsthand knowledge and continued travel throughout the continent, she now creates highly personalized itineraries that reflect both the diversity of Africa and the individual goals of each traveler.
Show Summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Lucinda about her journey from early guiding roles to becoming a specialist in African travel and the founder of Ganders Travel. She shares how climbing Kilimanjaro and experiencing safari life firsthand shaped her understanding of what makes travel transformative rather than transactional.
Lucinda offers an honest look at the realities of climbing Kilimanjaro, explaining why success on the mountain depends as much on mindset as it does on fitness. She discusses the critical role of acclimatization, the importance of experienced guides, and the team dynamic that develops during high-altitude treks. Drawing from her years managing safari camps in Zambia, she also reflects on the immersive sensory elements of African travel—from the sounds of wildlife after dark to the distinctive scents of the bush.
The conversation also explores the art of bespoke itinerary design. Lucinda explains why understanding a client’s motivations, expectations, and travel style is essential to creating meaningful experiences. Whether focused on wildlife photography, culinary discovery, or cultural connection, she emphasizes that thoughtful planning is what turns a trip into a lasting memory.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Successful bespoke travel begins with understanding a traveler’s personal goals and preferences.
- ✓ Climbing Kilimanjaro is as much a mental challenge as it is a physical one.
- ✓ Proper acclimatization significantly increases safety and summit success.
- ✓ Experienced local guides are essential for both safety and overall experience.
- ✓ Safari travel engages all five senses in ways few destinations can.
- ✓ Respecting and valuing local staff enhances the authenticity of the journey.
- ✓ Africa offers exceptional opportunities for wildlife photography and immersive nature experiences.
- ✓ Culinary experiences across Africa can be diverse, memorable, and surprisingly refined.
- ✓ Transitioning from camp management to entrepreneurship requires resilience and adaptability.
- ✓ Traveling with intention leads to more meaningful and rewarding adventures.
What You’ll Find on Ganders Travel
- ✓ Bespoke itineraries across East and Southern Africa
- ✓ Indian Ocean island escapes and beach extensions
- ✓ Expertly curated safari experiences
- ✓ Kilimanjaro and adventure travel planning
- ✓ Personalized service rooted in firsthand regional knowledge
- ✓ Thoughtfully designed journeys focused on meaningful travel
Learn more about Ganders Travel and connect with Lucinda at:
https://ganderstravel.com/
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Jason Elkins (00:00.502)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. So happy to have each and every one of you here and super excited to have my guest with us today. We’ve got Lucinda Rome. She’s the founding and managing director of Ganders Travel. Lucinda, welcome to the show. Happy to have you here.
Lucinda (00:19.646)
Good afternoon Jason, good to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Jason Elkins (00:22.786)
This is going to be so much fun before we get started. Lucinda, are you? Where are you right now? Where in the world?
Lucinda (00:29.939)
in Hampshire, in the UK, England, yeah.
Jason Elkins (00:33.23)
All right, very cool. as you know, and maybe my listeners know, I’m actually in Mexico at the moment. And so isn’t it wonderful that technology allows us to do that?
Lucinda (00:46.399)
It’s It’s like being in the same room having a cup of coffee, right? Bit warmer where you are.
Jason Elkins (00:49.646)
I wish we were in the same room, it’s the next best thing. Actually, it’s really been cold here. I had heard that Mexico City can get cold in the winter. I didn’t really believe it until I recently started thinking I need to go buy another jacket and maybe another blanket for the bed. It has been a little chilly, but I’m not complaining. What’s the weather like there?
Lucinda (00:58.721)
That’s it.
Lucinda (01:06.671)
wow, okay.
Lucinda (01:12.307)
Actually today is the first day we feel like might spring around the corner. It’s sunny and warm. First day didn’t wear a cape for the dog walk. So we’re going in the right direction and it’s dry.
Jason Elkins (01:17.774)
All right.
Jason Elkins (01:25.282)
Very, very cool. Hey, before we jump in, let’s give our listeners, I already said before we jump in, so this is a second before we jump in, but I want our listeners to get a chance to kind of understand what Ganders Travel is. We’re not gonna go too deep into it right now, but maybe give them like the 30 or 60 second elevator pitch and then we’ll dig into your story.
Lucinda (01:45.993)
Okay, so we’re a tailor-made tour operator and we specialize in holidays to all of Eastern and Southern Africa and the Indian Ocean. So those are the only areas we concentrate on, but we’ve got intimate knowledge of all of them. So it’s quite tailored and bespoke itineraries, safaris, Indian Ocean breaks, Victoria pools, things like that.
Jason Elkins (02:07.512)
So you said tailored and bespoke. think most of our listeners know what that means, but maybe in your own words, what does that mean to you? What is the reality of what you’re doing?
Lucinda (02:09.815)
Mm-hmm.
Lucinda (02:17.719)
In reality, it means it’s a conversation with you, learning about what you might have done before, what you enjoy on holiday, what you don’t enjoy. If there’s something particular you want to see, time of year you want to go, experiences you want to actually incorporate, bit riding safaris, walking safaris, traditional game drives, snorkeling, Cape Town, whatever it is. so getting to know you as an individual, as a family, whoever the group is,
And then using the knowledge and experience we have after too many years in the industry, don’t know if you would openly admit to yes, I suspect I will later in the conversation, but I will go back, to make the recommendations for the client. And then we put an itinerary together, we can change that as much as we need to. And so it’s entirely for you. No two trips are the same because no two people are the same.
Jason Elkins (02:56.302)
It’ll come out.
Lucinda (03:15.607)
You might have an idea that you want to do something similar to your friends because they really enjoyed it. But it may be that that hotel or that camp wasn’t the right one for you because you really like being by water and they wanted to be on top of the hill. So it’s as simple as that. We get to know the nitty gritty, I guess. And we’re no more expensive. So there’s the plus side as well.
Jason Elkins (03:38.328)
love it. And before we even get into the full story, I can already tell you’ve been doing this for a while because you mentioned you mentioned one thing specifically that has come up in a few conversations when we talk about how do you work with clients? And you said we like to ask things like what you didn’t like in the past. That is a game changer that some people don’t think of. We have a tendency. People come to us and say we want to do this and we say, OK, I can help you do that. And you might ask what kind of things do you like to do?
But it’s that question, what has not gone well for you in the past that really tells you what people, it kind of opens up a whole new conversation. So while we stayed, go ahead.
Lucinda (04:18.679)
Well, it does. No, I was gonna say because actually some people have never been to Africa before. And it’s quite a unique part of the world. It’s not necessarily comparable to Europe, for example. And if this is your first sort of big holiday, it’s your honeymoon, it’s important you get it right. And a safari is still expensive. But you don’t know what a bad safari is because you haven’t been before. But you know what you as a couple, as a family, an individual,
do and don’t like, you know that you need indoor plumbing as I sometimes refer to it as, or if actually you want the really wild, raw adventure or a mix of both, you know what you’re like. So you know that this is what you enjoy on holiday and this is what you don’t want.
Jason Elkins (05:05.442)
Maybe you mentioned indoor plumbing and that was the example I kind of had my mind I was gonna ask you about because that’s one, but maybe so maybe a couple has been on a trip to the Rocky Mountain West in the United States, for example, and you’re speaking with one of the two in the couple and you’re like, what do you not like in the past? Tell me about a trip that you did not like and they say, well, my husband drugged me on this.
Lucinda (05:07.575)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (05:34.072)
trip and we were camping outside and I didn’t have access to a shower for a week and I was miserable, then that’s a really good opportunity for you to have a conversation about the realities of Africa. And I’m not saying that everything in Africa is camping and no showers. It’s not the case. I’ve been, I know.
Lucinda (05:38.487)
Yep.
Lucinda (05:50.857)
It’s actually more difficult to find that these days, you know, everything is just so amazing. When you’re in the national parks, you might be in a tent, but it’s not a tent I’m putting up in the back garden.
Jason Elkins (05:59.982)
It’s not a tent like most of us remember growing up when our parents took us camping. Now, and on the other side, it is still a tent. So if maybe someone says, well, we went to this one place and we were in this hotel and the walls were paper thin and we felt like any noises we made, everybody was gonna hear it. Well, that might be a good conversation to have as well because the tents are still tents in that regard.
Lucinda (06:04.711)
No, no, it’s not. No, far from it.
Lucinda (06:26.79)
They’re tense, they’re canvas slides. Yeah. I think luckily in Africa, you’ve always got a something, you know, a hippo or a buffalo or a wildebeest or something sort of making, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Did you hear the buffalo last night? Why not?
Jason Elkins (06:29.888)
So very, very cool.
Jason Elkins (06:38.284)
You can always, so you’re saying you can always blame the noises. No, that was, wow. Did you guys hear the monkeys last night? Those baboons were going nuts, weren’t they? All right. I didn’t think this conversation was going to go that direction, but anyway, that’s okay. All right. So I will ask you real quick because you mentioned Bustow customized.
Lucinda (06:54.633)
No, no, no, no. Wow.
Lucinda (07:02.411)
Mm.
Jason Elkins (07:05.934)
really, you know, there’s a bunch of different words that we use in the industry. But the other side of the spectrum is some tour operators do group trips. So I just thought I would ask, is that something you have done? Is that something you’re thinking about doing? Do you have any thoughts on doing any sort of group trips?
Lucinda (07:21.183)
Yeah, we definitely do group trips, but we do very specific ones. I’m quite fussy when it comes to the group trips we do do. And so we can either do a group trip entirely for you. So you can put a group together, say there are 20 of us and I’ve done it, you we’re a multi-generational family, we’re taking everyone. And that slightly becomes a group trip because there are 20 of you, right? So you’ve got to move 20 people. Or you…
Jason Elkins (07:44.366)
But at least there are 20 people that kind of, well, maybe know each other. Maybe they haven’t traveled together, but yeah, okay.
Lucinda (07:47.923)
know each other. Yeah.
So that’s one side, or you have the small and we tend to do the small group departures and then very specific ones across Africa. So there are countries which I think in Africa work better for small group departures than others. And the reason for that is some small group departures in some countries, say, I’m going to take Kenya, for example, amazing national parks, beautiful national parks, incredibly rich and also incredibly diverse.
But a group departure which tries to take in Savo, Ambecelli, Masai Mara, Nanyuki up into Meru and Samburu in 10 days, you’re going to spend five of those days on the road because the distances are just too big and they don’t flow into each other. Whereas countries like Botswana and Northern Tanzania, all the wildlife areas actually flow into each other. So if we go to Botswana, for example,
you are in the Okavango Delta, but one area of the Okavango Delta is very different to the other area of the Okavango Delta. So when you move as a group from one camp to the other, you spend an all day game drive with your guide, you’re seeing, you’re doing, you’re experiencing, you’re not just on a really bad road for six hours to get to the next national park, you’re actually experiencing the country. And then you go from the Okavango Delta up into Tuchobi in the same thing.
full day drive so the camp goes on ahead of you. Orham, Tanzania, the Angara-Garra crater flows into the Serengeti, and the Serengeti is past. So you’ve got all these different areas you can go and explore on a small group departure. But every day you move, it’s not just a logistics day, it’s actually an experience day.
Jason Elkins (09:35.214)
Help me understand because I’m curious and I suspect maybe someone else listening to this is as well. Because we’re talking about the differences between kind of that customized bespoke trip probably for a couple or a small family compared to group trips. And I heard you say we were talking about some of these areas work better for group trips, but I’m wondering. So the first example you gave was Kenya and you said, well, you might be on a bad road for six hours.
Lucinda (09:38.603)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (10:05.208)
Help me understand what the difference is, whether you’ve got a group of 12 to 20 or you’ve got a couple, because I’m just curious. You brought that up and I got a little lost.
Lucinda (10:15.413)
Yeah, no, that’s fair. If you’re a couple, we’ll tend to fly you.
Jason Elkins (10:19.77)
okay. Okay. Okay.
Lucinda (10:21.675)
So you ignore that road altogether. And actually those little light aircraft flights become part of the experience because you see the country from the air. So it gives you a totally different perspective. But you’re not sitting six hours on a really bad road. You’re a couple of hours in the air connecting national parks and then you’re experiencing it again.
Jason Elkins (10:40.462)
Is that purely a logistical thing because it’s harder to move a group of 12 to 20? You don’t have five small aircraft that you can put everybody in or is it just cost?
Lucinda (10:47.159)
No, I think primarily cost because you can get a 12-seater caravan which would happily do those routes. But a lot of the group trips are designed for, you know, to keep the people who put them together try and keep the cost as low as possible. And so therefore they’re not going to use a flight, they’re going to use a vehicle.
Jason Elkins (11:08.984)
The light bulb just went off in my head. Thank you for helping me turn on the lights. No, I get it now because as someone that used to put together a lot of group trips and do custom trips, I felt like I should have figured that out quicker. But you’re right. If I was putting together group trip, I would look at places that were logistically just a little bit easier and maybe a little less expensive because a lot of people that go on group trips
Lucinda (11:11.287)
Yeah, sorry. Sorry, I took a rather long way around to do it, that’s yeah, just reason.
Lucinda (11:32.203)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (11:37.422)
It’s part of why they go on group trips is because they, you know, because I’m a single or it’s a couple. And if we go with the group, maybe we save a little bit of money. Maybe we have to put up with some crazy other people in the group. I don’t know. That’s one.
Lucinda (11:39.297)
Yeah, exactly.
Lucinda (11:50.775)
But also you get to know your guide, right? It’s a different experience. You get to know your guide, the guide gets to know you, gets to know what you enjoy, what you don’t enjoy again, what you’ve seen. If you go from one camp to another and you haven’t got good camps and good guides to go wherever you come from and have a chat with you before your first game drive, you might go out on your first game drive at the second camp and they stop and show you in parlor and say, well, these are in parlor and they are this, and they go from the basics again, whereas…
When you’ve got a guide who either bothers to ask the question or is traveling with you throughout, knows that you’ve already gone through that and can just point out the different behaviors potentially or different aspects that you might have not seen already.
Jason Elkins (12:35.812)
Right. And it sounds like the way you’re describing the group trips is oftentimes, I mean, in my experience, I don’t want to speak for you, but in my experience, there was some consistency of either a guide, a local guide or a trip leader that’s all that maybe is even the one that put it together and understands it all and can kind of, you know, do that briefing with the guides. You know, when you arrive at the new lodge, hey, this is what we’ve been doing. And they will know to bring that up, even if the guides don’t, you know, say,
Lucinda (12:58.411)
Exactly.
Jason Elkins (13:04.9)
Hey, where were you guys last? So just, okay, that makes a lot of sense. I appreciate you going down that road with me, that bumpy, bumpy road. didn’t last six hours, but it was pleasant. So it’s okay. All right, let’s end that. Let’s now let’s figure out kind of know where you are. Maybe there’s more to learn, but before we do that, let’s go back and figure out how you got from where you were to where you are now. Some people like to go all the way back to.
Lucinda (13:05.28)
Exactly.
Lucinda (13:10.052)
That can’t be related.
Jason Elkins (13:30.382)
where and when they were born and other people say, well, you know, a few years ago I decided to start this business. So let’s pick somewhere in between.
Lucinda (13:37.313)
Somewhere in between. mean, I guess, yeah, it’s, it’s without going back to when I was born, I think I did a charity time with my killer manager. I was sort of the head of a division of the charity. And I thought that we were going to run this as a fundraiser. And I thought it’s my asking other people to do it. I should probably do it myself. I then read it.
Jason Elkins (13:57.998)
Okay, I’m gonna pause you. Listen, we gotta go a little further back. You can’t start with Kilimanjaro.
Lucinda (14:02.154)
No!
Lucinda (14:06.353)
That’s where my Africa starts it. That’s where…
Jason Elkins (14:08.514)
I, well, I understand that, but I suspect you didn’t just wake up one day and say, I’m interested in Africa. So I’m just curious. you grew, where did you grow up? What was, you know, what was going on? What do you like?
Lucinda (14:20.671)
I grew up in the UK in South West England, a country rural upbringing on a horse, most of the time, if it wasn’t, you know, with the animals, so really wonderful upbringing. But generally, had never been to Africa until I did Kilimanjaro. So and I’d taken a very,
Jason Elkins (14:37.776)
Had you traveled at all when you were growing up?
Lucinda (14:42.199)
Yes, we obviously done family holidays and things like that. When I was at university and studying history of art, I did a year out of my degree course. My degree course was three years and I did the at that stage, they called it the European exchange. can’t remember the exact title, but I got the opportunity to apply to go to a European university for one year of my course and extend it to a four year course.
I think partly because of my sonny, but I was lucky and I got invited to go to Rome University. So somebody studying history of art to go to Rome University, that was just fabulous because living and breathing it, know, everywhere you turn, there’s something to look at or investigate or learn about. So yeah, I guess that was the sort of first turn the water in terms of travel.
Jason Elkins (15:22.341)
Right, yeah.
Lucinda (15:41.527)
Because I lived there for a year didn’t speak Italian to begin with all my lectures were in Italian. So that was a steep learning curve back in the day before phones and automatic translate I had a Dictaphone and a dictionary that’s you know a sizable door stop And I used to just go home and and translate each lecture and eventually my Italian got good enough that that took me less and less time
So I needed something to fill my time and I’m student in the city, right? So I got myself a job and my job was being a tour guide in Rome, primarily in the Vatican City.
Jason Elkins (16:18.742)
Okay.
See, and you were gonna skip all over that and go straight to Kilimanjaro. come on. It’s fun. We will get there. But I’m starting to see the connection now. Okay, you’re doing tour guide in Rome, interested in art.
Lucinda (16:26.103)
Climbing Jari is the fun bit, My knee, this is pretty good. This is pretty good. I love it.
Mm-hmm. I’m talking about around the bathroom did six or more walking tours of the Vatican Museums and San Pietro St. Peter’s Basilica, which was fabulous. And then I also did Centro Storico, which is the, you historical center of Rome walking tours or tours of the Colosseum or forum or took tours out to the Villa d’Este or to Tivoli. I mean, it’s just
as it’s just so rich, it’s just fabulous. So I did that until I came back. Yep.
Jason Elkins (17:08.56)
I’m ask you some more questions about that in just a second, but I’m curious, when you were growing up in high school, do you remember where your love of art came from? I mean, was that always what you were gonna do, or did you just scramble to last minute when you were going to college and you, oh geez, need to choose a degree, or how did that all come about?
Lucinda (17:16.853)
Hmm.
Lucinda (17:33.527)
A bit of both. I actually grew up wanting to be a vet. That would be my, that was my thing. I was, I wanted to be a vet, but it’s incredibly competitive, rightly. And my sciences just weren’t strong. So I got after my GCSEs in the UK when you’re 15, 16, and you do nine, 10, 11 of those depending on school and you and everything else, they’ve slightly changed it now.
Jason Elkins (17:37.38)
Okay, you mentioned animals, so yeah, okay.
Lucinda (18:02.227)
you then have you go right down to three or four subjects. And about say after the 1516, when I was 1516, it didn’t look like my sciences were strong enough to get into a good vet school, would university course, I would probably become a veterinary nurse, and I didn’t want to be the nurse, wanted to be the vet. So I basically went to a lot of different lessons to work out what my new A levels were going to be.
Jason Elkins (18:22.448)
Okay.
Lucinda (18:31.571)
And one of them I walked into was history of art. And so that was it. I was bitten. I’ve always loved photography. And maybe that was sort of coming through. But I was completely hooked. That was it from. So I did it from 16 and then it was an obvious route to go and do it at university.
Jason Elkins (18:51.266)
curious I say that a lot I am a curious person I recognize I say that word a lot do you think
when I think of the history of art, you’ve got two things going on. There’s a huge history element involved, obviously, but then there’s also kind of the visual element. You mentioned photography. We’re getting ready to talk more about Africa, which is very visually stunning and maybe even overwhelming at times. So I’m curious, was it more the visual part of the art or like, would you stand like when you were guiding and you’re standing in front of a piece of art, was it a conversation about?
Lucinda (19:10.433)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (19:29.454)
the art or what was going on with the artist during the time when it was created, what was more fascinating to you?
Lucinda (19:35.447)
It’s kind of both because one of my other A levels was, so my two other A levels were history and geography. So you kind of got all of it. I love the history. But I actually what I found with the history and the history of art is that they kind of went like that because my sort of period of art was sort of late Gothic Renaissance Baroque.
Jason Elkins (19:42.18)
OK? OK.
Jason Elkins (19:57.584)
Mm-hmm.
Lucinda (20:04.467)
probably my sort of preferred period. I did some modern sewing.
Jason Elkins (20:09.872)
Is that because of what was going on during that period or just visually, just like the art that came out of that period?
Lucinda (20:16.919)
I think both. think the politics was extraordinary. The culture was extraordinary. The idea that, you you’ve got people burning books, you know, it’s just criminal in my book. But you’ve also got, so you’ve got that background of culture and complete social change. But this is also being represented in art and art became a sort of a form of the power and it was a visual power. But and you could get the artists to paint themselves into the picture.
But then actually the artists lives as well, but not linear. You look at someone like Caravaggio, I mean, he lived quite a life, whereas, which was very different to my Blanche, which was the portrait put upon for artists for me, but also brilliant. And so there was so much development and so much change and so much to get your teeth into, really, you know, it wasn’t, it’s not linear. There’s not one thing that you buy into you, you can’t just look at it. Yes, it’s a pretty picture. But I think
art has you have to emotionally respond to it to really connect with it. And that is the period. You know, I appreciate the brilliance of later artists and their draftsmanship like Picasso, but his art doesn’t speak to me in the same way the Renaissance and the Baroque and particularly people like Bernini and his 3D sculptures did.
Jason Elkins (21:36.452)
of having conversations with people that have passion about something. And that’s what we’re, that’s what I’m experienced right now. I don’t, you know, I don’t know a lot about, you know, the history of art and just, but just listening to you, I’m like drawn into it and I’m imagining. So now I want to get back to when you were guiding, cause I’m imagining you had a wide variety of people that would show up on your tours and you never knew what you were going to get. And you clearly have a passion for history and art.
Lucinda (21:53.504)
Mmm.
Lucinda (21:57.355)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (22:06.34)
And I’m just curious, tell us a little bit more about, you mentioned Vatican and El Centro of the city. What kind of tours did you end up doing mostly? What was most of the focus on architecture, food, culture, art, everything, I’m sure, but.
Lucinda (22:26.699)
I think the architecture and the art and the history, because you can’t look at one without the other. But I think I was primarily on the Batroun tours, which were six, seven hour tours. So we used to go through the museums and obviously you’ve got all the Svelte galleries, you’ve got all the Raphael rooms, of course you’ve got Sistine Chapel, but you’ve also got the Pinot Queteka, which is the painting gallery part of the Batroun museums.
So we used go through there first and you got everything from Joshua and Raphael. So you could really see the development of art through the way they’d arranged it. You could see from Gothic all the way how things changed and how three-dimensionality came in and how the S-curve came in and color and everything else. so we used to do that and I used to love that. But then obviously going into St. Peter’s Basilica is an incredible place.
And you have to respect its history. You have to respect its religious building. But it’s also got some amazing art, because of course it’s got the Pieta and things like that by Michelangelo. But it’s also got this, so its history and the papal history, which was not always linear either, it becomes part of the art. So you can’t have one without the other, because the politics also played a big role.
because if you have a member of the family like the Medici got your next stooge in as Pope, you became even more powerful. So the politics behind the throne almost were as interesting as the art and the architecture. So I did a lot of that. And then I did the ancient stuff as well. But I suppose I probably didn’t do as much of the ancient as I did on the Renaissance era.
Jason Elkins (24:17.776)
Okay, a couple of questions. When you, you mentioned that you got to the point where you didn’t have to spend so much time translating your lectures and so you went out and got a job as a tour guide. I guess the question is, I can imagine some people saying, I want to be a tour guide because I love art and history and culture and I get to go to museums all day and I get to see things and.
Lucinda (24:27.798)
Yep.
Jason Elkins (24:46.51)
And then there’s other people that are like, yeah, that’s great, but I’m passionate about sharing it. It’s not, I’m not doing this job just so I can go to these cool places. I’m doing this job because I really want to share my passion with other people. I don’t want to put you on the spot, but do you remember thinking what was your motivation to go be a tour guide as opposed to just working in a museum? What’s that?
Lucinda (25:04.919)
I think it’s much more basic than that, Jason. I think it’s much more basic than that, Jason. I was a student who needed cash and they wanted an English speaking tour guide and I had knowledge and history. So, you know, I spoke English. I would love to say it was this higher calling, but I think it was much more immediate. You know, I’m a student. I’m 19, 20 years old, right? I need a job.
Jason Elkins (25:10.51)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (25:15.556)
love it. So honest.
Jason Elkins (25:30.64)
It makes sense. And I think the reason I’m coming to the question from that angle is because I remember the very first time I told someone in my family that I wanted to be a it was not because I saw it as an opportunity to make money. I remember I told my now ex-wife for many, many years ago, I said, you know what? I think I want to be a fishing guide. I want to be a fly fishing guide.
And she looked straight at me and said, that’s the dumbest effing idea that I’ve ever heard. So, so I guess that’s why it’s coming to me like, why did you want to do this? But it makes, makes, it makes total sense because, but look where it, look where it led you.
Lucinda (26:10.025)
Yeah No, I would love to say there was a higher calling or I thought about it more but I was Yeah, exactly. I was 19 or 20 in a foreign city, you know, it was a job
Jason Elkins (26:23.984)
All right. So then the next question is, because when I was that age and needed a job, I was working in restaurants and I didn’t like it. I kind of hated it. So did you like this was your opportunity to make money? I get it. It makes sense. Did you actually and well, let me ask you this. What did you enjoy most about it?
Lucinda (26:42.003)
I loved it. I actually turned out to really love it. And I think I loved it for the fact that it got me into the museums and saying stuff, the fact that no two tours were the same, because you get different people, get different people with different interests, different levels of knowledge, different priorities, and love particularly about the Vatican museums. I don’t know if you’ve ever been, but they are vast, absolutely vast. And you walk in and
you know, you’re trying to talk about Leachvin, which is this incredible sculpture from ancient Greece, and you’re chatting about it from the history and what you know about it. And then somebody will ask a question about one of a thousand sculptures in there, but you don’t know the artist because nobody does. You don’t know the era because, it’s in this room, so it’s got to be there. And therefore it always tested me as well, because even if I didn’t know the answer, I didn’t want to just say I don’t know.
because you’re the guide, right? And you’re there to help people and to bring it to life. So even if I couldn’t answer the question directly about that one, I would know about the one next door to it, or I could turn it into something. And it was always challenging. And therefore I had to use my brain. I couldn’t just, I needed to use my brain and I was having to use my brain. But also I got to go through the Raphael rooms every single day.
We’ll see the Sistine Chapel every single day. mean, how can you all have that?
Jason Elkins (28:14.01)
Did you? I’m curious. Hold on one second. Edit, edit, edit. I recognize I lost my camera there all of the sudden.
Lucinda (28:23.087)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (28:26.114)
See if,
Lucinda (28:28.06)
Goodbye.
Jason Elkins (28:29.124)
I’m back, hopefully I’ll stay back. Maybe I better not touch anything. So I’m gonna edit this little part out. Edit, edit, edit. So listen, how big were the groups typically? I’m sure it fluctuated, but are we talking you’re with a small family or do you have the flag waving around so everybody can follow you with 30 people following you? What was that like?
Lucinda (28:35.334)
Okay.
Lucinda (28:52.058)
A bit of both. You could have a private group of two or three who book you privately, or you could have 25, 26, 30 people, which was always a bit more of a challenge. And it always took that much longer to get through. yeah, I never had a flag. wasn’t very good with the flags. And the only two people I ever lost on any tour, it was a bigger tour, it was a Saturday and I see some…
And my sister was living in Florence and my mother had come over to stay with us and they were on the tour and then they weren’t. was like, it only two people. Well, we didn’t listen to you. like, finally. I went when I said I was going.
Jason Elkins (29:29.882)
Really?
Jason Elkins (29:37.648)
That is funny.
Jason Elkins (29:43.204)
Yeah, I’ve been that person recently within the last six months. I was on a kind of a group tour, not a particularly well organized group tour. It wasn’t anything that anybody I’ve ever discussed on the show or anybody set this up. So I’m not pointing any fingers. I actually was in the country of Georgia and I had I’d met a friend and she said, we set up this tour. Do you want to go? So we got on a bus and it was, I don’t know, it was an interesting trip, but it.
It wasn’t the level that I’d normally expect. But anyway, yeah. But anyway, I was that guy that they, we stood there, there were probably a dozen, 15 people, and she said, okay, you wander around the con, the Abbey or the whatever it was and be back at 15 after. And I heard 50 after, which is so random. Why would anybody say 50 after?
Lucinda (30:12.432)
You’re not rushing back.
Lucinda (30:33.864)
you can.
Yeah
Jason Elkins (30:38.48)
And I looked at my phone, I was like, wow, that’s a lot of time to just wander around, I guess, oh well. So I went and wandered and found a place to sit down for a while. was like, well, I guess we’ve got some time to kill. So I’m sitting there and fortunately my friend had my WhatsApp number and called and said, Jason, where are you? You were supposed to be back at 15 after. So I was that guy and I’m sure you’ve had.
Lucinda (30:44.314)
I guess I won’t.
Lucinda (31:03.213)
You know, they weren’t doing that. They thought about water or something and they just decided anyway. the only two people I lost, so it’s fine.
Jason Elkins (31:09.2)
Yeah. I had, I used to joke that the number one rule in the guidebook, like when you learn to be a guide, the number one rule is come back with the same number you left with, right? Come back with the same number. It’s a success. And then of course I was doing some outdoor guiding. So, but I usually only had two or three people, so a little easier to keep track. So what was
Lucinda (31:21.542)
Tant them in, tant them out.
Yeah, exactly. Okay, yeah. Definitely.
Jason Elkins (31:35.256)
What was your least favorite part? Because remember we talked earlier about the question of what did you not like or what, you know, tell me about a bad experience. so what was the part you liked the least about this work?
Lucinda (31:40.852)
Lucinda (31:47.502)
I think sometimes you got, it’s the story of life, you just got unpleasant people. It didn’t happen very often, but sometimes you’d get a couple, let’s for example, on a group, and one just didn’t want to be there. And they were the sort of person whose energy infected everyone else. And then it became really hard work. Because if they’re bringing the whole mood down, it actually doesn’t matter what you’re doing. So those were the most difficult days, because actually,
you’re not doing anything different, you’re not doing anything wrong, you’re doing what you’re trying to do. But you’ve got someone who just doesn’t want to be there. And their wife or their husband or their partner has said you will be there.
Jason Elkins (32:25.52)
How did they?
Jason Elkins (32:29.934)
Are you able to, I mean, as people, just feel things. So this might be a difficult question to answer, but are you able to put your finger on the type of behaviors or describe the type of behaviors that you would see that would give you that? Or is it just a general, like, she’s kind of crabby.
Lucinda (32:46.63)
Just the generals, sometimes it was just unpleasant or unhelpful or snide remarks or just the tension between them. It’s not always what they’re saying or doing. It’s just there’s something going on there and that’s made everyone else stand on edge.
Jason Elkins (32:56.931)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (33:07.446)
And speaking as somebody who has guided a lot of people, been with a lot of guides and just really enjoy shared experiences, that’s my highest value. I figured that out a few years ago. My highest value is shared experiences. And working as a guide, a lot of my energy would kind of come from the group, to be honest. guess it’s maybe they call it kind of that empathic type of person that might want to be a guide. So if at the end of the day,
Lucinda (33:32.732)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (33:37.144)
everybody’s happy and excited, then I’m just like, I’m dopamine hit like crazy. And I’m just like, wow, my life is great. And at the same time you get somebody crabby like that and you, at the end of the day, you feel like, man, why wasn’t I able to do that? That wasn’t very good. That didn’t feel good. And you have to kind of step out and say, it’s not always about you, Jason.
Lucinda (33:57.564)
Yeah.
Yeah, but it also really, really used to bug me. Because I’m like, these other people have also, you’re now affecting the enjoyment of the whole group. And that’s not fair, because they do want to be here. And they pay to be here and I’m doing what I should be doing. But those that shout the loudest, often get the most attention, rightly or wrongly, but you try and shut it down.
Jason Elkins (34:13.072)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lucinda (34:28.42)
And so even if you’re not giving them the most attention, visually or in your communication, your brain is trying to work out how to navigate this to make sure that everyone is happy, which is taking up bandwidth, which you just shouldn’t have to do. And so it did really irritate me, I hope you can understand.
Jason Elkins (34:51.696)
curious would you rather well first off did you figure out any tricks like because there’s people listening to this that are guides or wannabe guides or just people that are interested in the whole topic are you able to put your finger on any tricks that you figured out how to kind of not I don’t know what the word is not disarm them but to integrate them better any little mind tricks that you were able to pull
Lucinda (35:17.69)
not mind tricks, but if I had a moment where say we were walking around the wall of the museum to be able to get into the museum from San Pietro, if I had a moment and I could just chat to them quietly and learn their interests. You know, they say, do you want to be here? Why are you being an idiot? Yeah, exactly. don’t quite that blunt. Yeah, it’s not gonna help. But if you say so, what do you enjoy? What do like?
Jason Elkins (35:33.166)
What’s problem? You’re ruining this for everybody. That’s not going to help, it?
Lucinda (35:43.47)
Yeah, and then you learn that actually what they want, they’re not interested in the papal history, but they are interested in, I don’t know, the painting, or they’re interested in gladiators, or, you know, you try and then go into the sculpture gallery. And when you’re talking about a sculpture, you’ll find one which was represented to the gladiator. And you very subtly, they don’t know you’ve done it, but you’ve kind of tried to bring them in.
because you’re talking about the sport or the Olympics or all of that. But it’s really difficult because if you can’t get them on their own, you can’t have that sort of quick conversation. They might not give you the information anyway. But I think that was one of my things that I used to try.
Jason Elkins (36:30.424)
love that because I’ve heard it said long ago and I think I’m learning it. The thing is not always the thing. So we can look at somebody and say they’re just pissed off. They’re a difficult person. Or we can imagine the fight maybe they had the evening before about are we going on the art tour or are we going on the food tour? And you ended up on the art tour. So maybe when you pull them aside, hey, what are your interests? I
Lucinda (36:51.632)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (36:57.252)
What have you enjoyed most, you know, during your time here in Rome or whatever? And they say, the food. And then maybe this may be a horrible example, but maybe if you can look at a piece of art and say this piece of art inspired so-and-so to make the this type of pasta.
Lucinda (37:14.662)
But you don’t even have to say that you can say, have you tried this bar, go to this bar, go to this restaurant, you know, and you suddenly engage them on that level. And sometimes I think it’s not necessarily that people are grumpy. Sometimes just asking somebody a question and listening to them just totally dissipates anything anyway. Even if you haven’t hit that nugget that it is actually food, or anything else, you just said, how are you? You know, it’s somebody
Jason Elkins (37:18.744)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jason Elkins (37:22.704)
Mm-hmm.
Lucinda (37:43.66)
asking them a question and as a somebody a third party, you’re the guide, the fact that they sort of singled you out to ask you how you are, you don’t know you’re being grumpy because how often are we so self aware that we know sometimes we know but sometimes we don’t realize the effect we’re having on everyone else. So you don’t know that that’s why they’ve done it. But it they singled me out. that makes me feel good. And it just helps.
Jason Elkins (38:10.64)
I love that. And it could be as simple as, well, honestly, I ate something last night that didn’t sit well with me and I’m uncomfortable. And now you’ve got an opportunity. Mary probably would like to know where the nearest bathroom is right now or whatever. And maybe we can take a group, a little break and I can say, hey, Mary, this is your chance and I’ll distract everybody while you’re gone. Nobody will even know you’re gone. I mean, that’s a little.
Lucinda (38:17.19)
Hmm.
Lucinda (38:20.721)
Bye.
Lucinda (38:26.459)
Yes.
Lucinda (38:38.48)
Yeah, it is. think it’s listening to people. It’s travel. It’s a people. mean, it’s a people business. And that sounds really stupid. But it is a relationship business. It’s about and particularly what I’m doing. It’s, it’s about that relationship. And if you’re interested in people, and I am and I like people, then actually
Jason Elkins (38:38.488)
Sounds a little silly the way I’m saying it, but you know what I mean, right?
Jason Elkins (38:50.641)
That doesn’t sound stupid at all. I love it. Yeah.
Lucinda (39:06.364)
It’s fascinating. You meet great people. You hear some extraordinary stories. But getting to know someone and getting to know the nuances, what is actually worked for them, it makes it right for them.
Jason Elkins (39:22.789)
Yeah, I love it. I do remember a similar situation. I used to when I was fly fishing guide, we would get on a drift boat and we’d float down the river all day and we would usually have waders on. So my clients would have, you know, chest waders all the way up to their shoulders and they show up at the boat ramp. And if it was a couple, oftentimes, you know, the spouse, she might not be that happy to be there. She’s like, I can’t believe I’m going to be on a boat with
to my husband and some other guy that I don’t know all day in the sun. I don’t want to drink any water because I don’t want to have to stop and go to the bathroom because I don’t want to have to ask to go to the bathroom and I don’t know what I’m going to do with these waiters and how is there even going to be a place to go? And there was so much anxiety about that in the morning that guys never think of. You know, it’s just fortunate in that regard. And so I quickly learned that if I’ve got a lady in the boat, I pull her aside and I say, here’s the plan.
Lucinda (39:51.996)
All day.
Lucinda (40:12.956)
You don’t have to.
Jason Elkins (40:21.573)
There are outhouses down along the river. We’re going to stop a couple of times and I’ll take your husband. can go fishing. I’ll point out the outhouse, whatever. And just rest assured that you’re not going to be in a situation where you’re like, geez, I got to ask these guys to stop. and then now all of a they would drink more water, which was great because it’s hot out there and yeah, stay hydrated. So just those little things. So I can tell you’ve done this probably a lot more than I have. You’ve picked up a lot of things. That’s cool.
Lucinda (40:37.649)
Yeah.
Lucinda (40:42.598)
Say her traces, yeah.
Jason Elkins (40:51.665)
Okay, how do we, what’s the best way to move this conversation from guiding to Kilimanjaro? Because I know that’s where you wanted to start. We put that off for the last 30 minutes. So now let now let’s talk about Kilimanjaro.
Lucinda (40:59.554)
To kill a mucharo. mean, yeah.
Well, think, I mean, finish frame, came back, got a proper job in London. Nothing to do with travel. Still people, but not travel. And then, no, it was working for a magazine. So it was totally different. And then I sort of fell into becoming an estate agent, which was fine, but it wasn’t a passion.
Jason Elkins (41:16.379)
Was it art? What kind of work was it?
Jason Elkins (41:21.956)
okay.
Jason Elkins (41:33.755)
So a state agent sounds to me like real estate. Is that what we’re talking about? Okay. All right. Yeah.
Lucinda (41:38.372)
Yeah, sorry. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Real estate selling and yeah, selling real estate.
Jason Elkins (41:43.512)
Yeah. Yeah, I did. I did that for a few years too. It was for someone like you and I, it’s kind of like, oh,
Lucinda (41:48.666)
It’s not a passion, right? Yeah. I, as they said, volunteered for this charity, we decided to run a Kilimanjaro clan to raise some funds. And I thought that if I was asking everyone else, I should probably go up myself. And then I read about it, but I’ve already signed up. So I was locked in. So that was that. And as a kind of
carrot to myself. I booked a four day safari in the Mastamara afterwards. That was my treat. Everyone’s now go to the beach. Go to the beach anytime. I’m in Africa. I’m going on a safari. And from the moment I landed in Arusha, for Kilimanjaro, you get off the bus, or get off the plane, and it’s this overwhelming assault on your senses. It’s the sounds, it’s the
smells, it’s the feel, it’s just everything and I was totally hooked. Kilimanjaro did, I had four days in the Masai Mara where I could have quite happily missed my flight home, I wouldn’t have find it at all. Came back to London, really now was a frustrated what I’d like photographer because I realized the opportunity out in Africa was immense. But also
Jason Elkins (43:14.577)
And here you are in London. There’s not as many wildlife photography opportunities. I do want to ask you a little bit more about Kilimanjaro, because you just kind of passed over that like, well, then we made a sandwich and you climbed about Kilimanjaro. Tell us a little bit. I’m just going to ask you, did you summit? Because not everybody does.
Lucinda (43:17.038)
And here I am in London.
Lucinda (43:23.366)
Yeah.
Lucinda (43:27.402)
there we go.
Lucinda (43:37.958)
We did summit. We did take a longer route, which really helps. They built an extra day in to help the acclimatization. When we went up, we went up by Gilman’s Point, and then you go across to Uhuru. So once you get to Gilman’s Point, have, they say that you have summited because you basically go up, I think it’s an extra hundred meters between Gilman’s and Uhuru. But we weren’t allowed to go around to Uhuru.
when we did it, because the weather had been beautiful during the day and incredibly cold at night. But what that meant was that when you go between the two points, you’re walking around the edge of a crater on an ice shelf. And this ice had melted to such an extent, it was now dangerous, and it was melting that morning. It was dangerous. It wasn’t wide enough for two feet to go together. So they had closed the
bit between the two for safety. So I got to Gilman’s I didn’t get to her room.
Jason Elkins (44:38.907)
So it sounds like you made it to. Okay, so you got to the top. You just didn’t get to the place where the sign was that everybody stands in front of and takes the picture and.
Lucinda (44:47.138)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, you still get a certificate saying you submitted and all of that, but you just don’t get exactly that the the sign. So yeah, I did. I submitted. And I promised myself
Jason Elkins (44:55.471)
Uh-huh.
Jason Elkins (45:01.595)
Did you enjoy it or did you hate it?
Lucinda (45:05.926)
Did I enjoy it or did I hate it? There are a number of things I loved, a number of things I hated, and number of things that surprised me. I loved being in Africa. I loved the mountain. I loved speaking to the guides. I loved that a couple of us in our group, because porters take priority on the trails. So for porters coming past, you get out of that way, which is
Jason Elkins (45:15.409)
Okay, let’s give us a couple of each.
Lucinda (45:34.492)
absolutely as it should be. But it meant if you’re walking as a group, and people spread out, they plan out across the whole path. And so if a portion comes along, you stop, you have to find your way into a single file, and then you can start going again. And that rhythm is actually quite difficult when you’re already struggling to breathe. It’s much better, found, just get into a rhythm very slow and just keep going. And so a couple of us sort of let the rest of the group go on ahead and we’d follow.
50 meters behind, mean, 50 yards, not that far behind, but far enough that when the stock happened, we could carry on and then let it go again. But what it meant was that, and we hadn’t found this and it hadn’t been, you know, we hadn’t even thought about it, was that actually, we had a guide with us the entire time, we got to chat to them, we got to learn about how important the mountain is to the local people, and what it means to them and the plants or the actual
plant life that we were seeing or on the lower slopes, some of the wildlife, real bird life that we were seeing. we, I think that is what I loved. I loved learning a bit more about it rather than just walking up the mountain. I loved the group. We became great friends. Loved the fact that I got there because I never had to do it again. And promised myself that I would never eat porridge ever again and I never have.
Jason Elkins (46:55.141)
I get it.
Lucinda (47:01.116)
because I didn’t like porridge before. It’s the texture. It just doesn’t do it for me. And I knew going up that I needed it because you’re burning through the calories. So I was a very good girl and I ate my porridge every morning and I hated everything from my apple. But the last morning when all we were doing was getting
Jason Elkins (47:17.969)
What do you wish, I suspect at times you were thinking, wish instead of porridge, wouldn’t it be great if we got to camp and there was X, or Z, I don’t want to put any words in your mouth. Were you fantasizing about anything?
Lucinda (47:30.332)
The food was really good. No, you just get on and eat it and it’s breakfast and I don’t usually eat breakfast anyway. So therefore, the whole thing is just beyond me and it’s probably six o’clock in the morning and you can’t breathe because you’re too high altitude or you can but everything just is hard to work. So I just said it but I promised myself I was never going to eat it ever again and even the morning that we were just coming downhill.
because we’d summited and we’d come down again and all we had to do was the last bit down. I didn’t have my porridge. I’ve never had it since. It’s a tax tripping.
Jason Elkins (48:05.617)
But for dinner, you, were you, so that was just for breakfast? So like in the evenings, did you have something different than you enjoyed?
Lucinda (48:14.404)
Yeah, no, food was really good. We had really fresh, we have fresh fruit all the time. We had freshly cooked meals. Not, you you’re not talking Michelin star, you’re just talking people efficient meals.
Jason Elkins (48:27.985)
Well, yeah, yeah. I I imagined that you were telling me that you ate porridge for every meal for the, how many days were you on the mountain? Five or six? Seven nights, yeah, okay. All right, so it wasn’t porridge for seven nights, but it still left a mark.
Lucinda (48:35.804)
Bye.
We were there seven nights on the mountain, eight days.
Lucinda (48:44.732)
No, It was just at every breakfast and then I forced it and it’s left a mark. I like no reason to do it again.
Jason Elkins (48:52.433)
All right. OK, so I heard a couple of things you liked. I heard a couple of things you didn’t like on the surprises. Maybe those are the same, but are there a couple of surprises? And this could be relevant because you probably have this conversation with clients that are going to do it.
Lucinda (49:07.588)
Yeah, think the surprise that was that, you know, you know, you’re gonna do it, you do a lot of work in the gym or walking, we had some practice walks. And so, you know, physically you’re fit enough. And actually, it was a friend who said to me, it’s just one night of your life for the final summit. And I think that was a really good thing she said to me, because as I went up and it’s, the surprise was the mental challenge.
I think that Kilimanjaro, yes, it’s a physical challenge, but don’t underestimate the mental challenge as well. I think people who are super fit and super confident are probably the people who are least likely to summit because they take the lower slopes too fast. Because it’s easy. It’s not complicated walking. It’s not dangerous walking. It’s not, you know, uncomfortable walking. It’s not the high gradient. It’s just a nice walk through some forest to begin with. And so they do that to
too quickly, and they don’t give their bodies time to acclimatize. And even though we had had the extra night on the mountain than most people did at that stage, and we did acclimatize pretty well, going up that final night, and you summit overnight was extraordinary, because it’s so I don’t think I’d realized the effect of altitude on the body until I knew I was fit enough.
Jason Elkins (50:34.641)
For those
Lucinda (50:35.758)
It was just the…
Jason Elkins (50:39.875)
I was just going to say for those people that haven’t been at altitude like that, how would you describe that? How would you describe it?
Lucinda (50:45.638)
Mmm.
Lucinda (50:50.998)
I’m like walking through trickles.
Jason Elkins (50:54.095)
Walking through what?
What is that, treacle? I’m hearing you wrong.
Lucinda (50:58.328)
It’s really, really thick syrup.
Jason Elkins (51:02.307)
okay. All right.
Lucinda (51:04.604)
Just the effects on the body is your the same little oxygen, but everything is becomes much harder work. So you think you’re walking at a normal pace and you’re looking at somebody else going slowly and then you realize you’re going that pace as well.
Jason Elkins (51:25.041)
I have heard that on Kilimanjaro.
Lucinda (51:27.32)
It’s extraordinary. And look, that’s why I think a lot of people fail because they underestimate that it’s so important to acclimatize on the lower slopes, almost more important on the lower slopes than it is. By the time you get to certain level, your body has begun to learn that it’s got less oxygen. If you just go up the lower slopes quite quickly, and then you expect your body to deal with the higher slopes, you’re going to have trouble.
Jason Elkins (51:56.721)
So I hear that it’s just hard I hear it’s you know, you’re moving slow you’re working hard. I’m also imagining I’m just imagining because I I’ve been at altitude but not exerted myself like that Does is there kind of an anxiety edge because you mentioned mental and I’m thinking I would imagine there probably times when I’m thinking my gosh, I Cannot get enough air
Lucinda (52:17.532)
Okay.
Jason Elkins (52:24.389)
This sucks and I’m gonna die here on this mountain. Maybe that’s a little extreme. I don’t know. I haven’t done it.
Lucinda (52:29.596)
No, think so the night that we had two nights at the highest altitude camp that we could have done, which is where the extra night was built in. And on that full day, we actually did the climate halification walk. So we walked to over 5000 and then we came back down again. But when we were walking to over 5000, we actually saw somebody being run off the mountain because they were unconscious. And they have four porters and they were just running.
And she was fine because they got her down fast enough and the body started regulating again. She was unconscious, she was breathing, and she was absolutely fine. But seeing that the night before you go up is a slightly startling reminder that this is a mountain that, whilst it’s not a complicated, hard, technical walk, it is still at an altitude that can be dangerous if you underestimate it or if your body just simply decides that it’s.
Jason Elkins (53:13.841)
Yeah.
Lucinda (53:27.948)
much on that particular day. So I think that was the wake up call, but it also means that you have to know that, you know, listen to your guide, go with a good group. Don’t don’t do something cheap, go with a good group, go with somebody who is going to make sure that you’re looked after that you acclimatize properly that you have the fresh food and nutrition to fuel your body the right way. Who will have we had
and all the groups I do. So the final assent, there is at least one guide or porter per person going up. So everybody is one to one. So it means that you don’t have to keep with the group. You have got somebody with you who is going to be looking after you. You don’t have to feel that you’re falling behind. Just get there and get there at your own pace.
Jason Elkins (54:06.955)
okay.
Jason Elkins (54:21.905)
I love that we’re having this conversation and I hope that you’ll take a clip of this conversation and share it with people getting ready to go because or even thinking about going because this is really good stuff. I remember having a conversation with someone here on the show quite a while ago and I won’t mention any names. He’s very capable, very, you know, he’s a mountain type of person. He, you know, he’s done it a lot and he
Lucinda (54:31.452)
Mmm.
Jason Elkins (54:49.807)
My understanding was you have to have a guide. You can’t just go up Kilimanjaro by yourself, I guess. And he was telling me how he hired a guide because he had to hire a guide and basically told the guide, look, you’re just going on a walk. You’re just walking with me. You don’t need to do anything. That’s that’s great. Everybody has their own levels and this and that. But the reason I’m bringing this up is somebody like him. And I’m not saying he would do it, but somebody that is super comfortable with it can go into, you know,
blogs or on to reddit or on to YouTube and talk about yeah, it’s super easy You know, you don’t really need a guide, but they’re gonna make you hire a guide and and if someone is listening to that You know and they believe influencers They and they’ve never climbed a mountain. They’re thinking well if it’s so easy, know, whatever whatever So I think I think it’s important to have this conversation
Lucinda (55:42.614)
Yeah, no, it’s a good point. I think you’re right. I’ve never thought of it that way before. think, you know, you’re at Kilimanjaro’s peak is taller than Everest Base Camp. And people take a couple of weeks to get to Everest Base Camp.
Jason Elkins (55:58.161)
I did not know that. That’s a new, okay. All right.
Lucinda (56:01.854)
It’s there, thereabouts. It might not be quite. It’s yeah, it’s.
Jason Elkins (56:05.391)
Okay, we won’t hold you to that, but it’s a serious endeavor.
Lucinda (56:09.748)
It’s a serious endeavor. That because you can do it in six or seven days, it feels like it shouldn’t is not so significant, it is a significant walk.
Jason Elkins (56:25.145)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I won’t ask you for stats or numbers of people that have gone, but I know not everybody makes it to the top. And, and, and you don’t just, I don’t think most people just show up and start the hike, you know, but I don’t know. You advise people more than I do. Well, I don’t advise them at all on Everest or on, Kilimanjaro. I definitely don’t advise them on Everest. That’s all. That’s a.
Lucinda (56:48.958)
No, no, no.
Jason Elkins (56:51.54)
I’m not going up. I did you know, I think when I was young and you know 1920 and in the army and the infantry I might have thought yeah, that would be cool and I’ve gotten that’s got that out of my system No desire
Lucinda (57:02.37)
you
Yeah, when I got back, I was like, I’m to go into Machu Picchu and I’m to go to effort space camp. then I was like, why? It is like addictive, I think because of that rush that you get. Because you’ve been at altitude and you come back. It’s why athletes train with altitude, isn’t it? Because then when it comes to a lower level, they’ve got so much more oxygen, they’re much they feel better.
Jason Elkins (57:12.209)
The world’s a big place. There’s a lot of cool things to see. Yeah.
Lucinda (57:34.822)
So that you get that endorphine rush, I guess, as well. But, you know, everyone does it differently and everyone acclimatizes differently. And I don’t want to over exaggerate its difficulty, but I equally don’t think that you should underestimate its difficulty as well. I you respect the mountain and you respect the porters and the guides. And I think that one of the things that I’m really, really
Jason Elkins (57:52.849)
Yeah, there’s like
Lucinda (58:04.418)
sort of passionate about if you like, about Kilimanjaro is that if you’re going to go use a company who are certainly in Tanzania who are registered with the Kilimanjaro Porches Association. So the porches are looked after as well because when we went up, not our group, our group were properly clothed, properly booted, but we saw people going up in flip-tops and a sort of rain mac.
you know, we’ve got all this kit on and you’re just like, that’s, that is not acceptable. And they’ve got they’re carrying too much weight. You know why? No, they need to be looked after as well. So don’t skimp on it, do it properly and enjoy it.
Jason Elkins (58:48.229)
Well, you mentioned that the night, guess, I think it was the night before you sounded, you saw them running someone off the mountain, down the mountain. Those guys are kind of important. Guys, gals, whoever’s doing that work, that’s important.
Lucinda (58:55.584)
Yeah, that was the part.
Lucinda (59:03.106)
I mean, at the screen at that point, because it is that last bit of that route is scree. And so one of the reasons you go up overnight is because it’s frozen. So it’s easier to walk on. But of course, then it thaws during the day. So we were up during the day on that sort of, you know, it by station walk. And so you’ll need your these guys knees were sinking up to their knees whilst carrying this this girl and they were running off. So it’s not easy work that they do.
Jason Elkins (59:33.739)
And and a tourist or a tour operator trying to save a few dollars Yeah, I don’t know. Okay. All right. So Thank you for sharing all of that. That’s a that’s just fascinating conversation It sounds like you really fell in love with the safari part afterwards So I don’t want to just skip past that like you just made a sandwich right what was the
Lucinda (59:40.704)
It’s not worth it.
Lucinda (59:49.826)
I
Jason Elkins (01:00:01.157)
Was there an aha aha moment? Could you? It kind of sounded like there was and that’s you know, Africa now is part of you, but the Safari part, what was what was your biggest aha moment there?
Lucinda (01:00:14.274)
think? think just space. You know, I grew up in the country in the UK and whilst that doesn’t have the open spaces that the US or Africa has, it’s quite beautiful out here as well. But the space and the sights and the smells and the fact that you are so connected to
to the earth. You get up when it’s light, you get up when it’s dark, you are much more in tune with it.
Jason Elkins (01:00:51.601)
Tell me about the smells. I’ve been to Southern Africa a couple times and, but you mentioned you’ve, I think you mentioned smells a couple times. I don’t know if you’re just particularly sensitive to smells, but, and it’s really hard to describe, but for somebody, cause I think people that have not been to Africa, they’ve seen, you know, it used to be mutual of Omaha’s wild kingdom. Now it’s YouTube, where they would see these animals so they can kind of imagine the sites. The smells might be a surprise.
Lucinda (01:01:18.978)
Mm hmm. I think that’s what surprised me and the sounds. I think that it’s really difficult to describe, but it is it is a combination that depends if you’re in the city or if you’re on safari. But let’s say you’re on safari. It’s the the combination of the dry. If you’re in the dry season, let’s go with the dry season for the moment. It’s the dry, compacted earth and the heat of the sun that produces a smell straight away.
And then you’ve got, as you’re driving along, you might brush past some wild basil, some wild herb of some description, which is so extraordinarily strong. And then you’re near a herd of buffalo, hippo. Hippo, not necessarily the least smelly creatures in the world, and it’s not necessarily a pleasant smell. But it’s a of whole combination of all of that. And then with the first rains,
We get it here. love that first rain on really dry soil. And you get that chemical. It’s one of my favorite words. It’s petrichor. And I just love that smell. That’s just something amazing.
Jason Elkins (01:02:30.225)
That’s cool. We, having spent a good chunk of my life in Arizona, it’s just, it’s so dry. And then when it does rain, the plants just kind of release their oils and stuff. it’s, it is such a cool thing. But also, you know, I think, I think part of Africa that’s so cool for me was we were always in some sort of open air, safari vehicle so that when you’re driving through doing your safari,
Lucinda (01:02:40.95)
Yeah.
Lucinda (01:02:56.162)
Yep.
Jason Elkins (01:03:00.185)
you’re completely exposed to the air, which allows for those smells. And, and just even like if you drive under a tree, you can just feel that it just, it, the temperatures and the winds and it’s, it’s kind of like, you know, I had a motorcycle at one point I drove across the U S on this motorcycle.
I just, bought the motorcycle three days earlier. I didn’t even have a license. just, that was dumb, but I did it. And I remember the thing I noticed most was like, my gosh, I smell everything.
you know, because I’m out in the open air and whether that’s going through the plains of Kansas or whatever, the smells and they would change as you went by a patch of trees or a creek or something like that. And people that have been exploring out and about like take scenic drives with their windows up or whatever, the air conditioner running, they just don’t get that. it is, the smells are very unique in Africa and the opportunity to connect with it is different, I think. What do you think?
Lucinda (01:03:31.841)
Yeah.
Lucinda (01:03:57.322)
I I think you’re absolutely right. think that if I was to sum it up in one word, it’s it’s unsanitized. You know, it is what it is in a good way. No, it’s it’s it’s real life. It’s and because as you say, you’re in these open vehicles, you feel it, you experience it, you don’t just see it.
Jason Elkins (01:04:04.909)
In a good way. I love that. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:04:19.621)
What about in the city like in Erosha or Nairobi or I mean I’m sure you’ve been to quite a few.
Lucinda (01:04:23.306)
That again, different areas will have different smells. you know, same with any city anywhere in the world. But I think there because again, even though you’re in a city, it’s quite the doors cities, if that makes sense. They’re not all tarmac, they’re not all, you know, infrastructure. There’s a lot of earth and grass and trees.
Jason Elkins (01:04:39.569)
Mm-hmm.
Lucinda (01:04:48.81)
And so you still, and then you have the live markets. So they bring their cattle in or their goats into the market to exchange and barter. So you’ve got still, you know, animals and wildlife and the mix of the different smells and the different trees and the birds. They don’t necessarily smell, but they definitely add color.
Jason Elkins (01:05:04.71)
What do you?
Jason Elkins (01:05:08.645)
I think it’s coming up on lunchtime for me, so I’m thinking about food. So I’m gonna ask you. I know you don’t like porridge, we figured that out. But are there smells, food related smells? Or are you excited about the food in Africa? I mean, what do you tell people about it? When they ask about the food, what do you tell them?
Lucinda (01:05:13.724)
I can’t think.
Sorry.
Lucinda (01:05:23.722)
Happy.
Lucinda (01:05:29.238)
I think if you’re in any safari camp lodge, you’re basically going to be fed extremely well. Generally Western food, Western style food, least, sometimes with a twist. you might have, you know, the sort of the carbohydrate might be their carbohydrate, just to give you a sense of it. There might be potatoes, rice pasta as well, but you get the opportunity to actually try the in different countries. It’s cool.
different things. But it’s essentially maize meal. It’s in Ogarli or in Shima or Satsa. It slightly depends which country you’re in, but it’s maize meal, basically. And they will have… It’s a corn base and they… It’s more like planter.
Jason Elkins (01:06:00.697)
Is it like, ooh, ooh, ooh, golly? Is there one that’s called ooh golly?
Jason Elkins (01:06:12.911)
So corn, corn, it’s a corn base. that?
Jason Elkins (01:06:21.745)
yeah, yeah, okay. Yep, that sounds right.
Lucinda (01:06:22.826)
If you think of polenta, but they’ll make porridge out of it. So that’s where they cook it more loosely or they will make it into that like mashed potato. So that’s when it’s more like the sort of polenta. So in grain, it’s much more like polenta.
Jason Elkins (01:06:38.447)
Are you the type that when you are in town, you like to go out and have street food experiences or yeah. Tell us a little bit about that.
Lucinda (01:06:48.384)
Yeah, no, I will remember one the first times I went to Zanzibar, and I was in Stonetown, was there by myself. was when I was in living in Zambia managing camps. I took a holiday up to Zanzibar. I was staying in Stonetown and I went out to Firogani food market. And it was just amazing because you’ve got all the drinks being freshly made, but it was sort of made out of all the fresh spices, fresh ginger and lemongrass.
and all those sort of actual sugar cane things people now pay a fortune for because it’s turmeric and ginger and things but actually there it’s just a street food drink or loaves on the barbecue which they’ve grilled in some amazing spice and you just go and have a know a bit of that it’s amazing.
Jason Elkins (01:07:24.433)
Just what it is. Hey, I just.
Jason Elkins (01:07:36.421)
You, you called that what I heard loathe some, I don’t think that’s what you said.
Lucinda (01:07:41.044)
No. What did I say? Lobster. Lobster?
Jason Elkins (01:07:43.003)
that they grill you said that they grill it lobster don’t you speak english just kidding i know you you speak english i speak north american english i get that i get the difference lobster okay
Lucinda (01:07:51.074)
I thought I was! Yeah, no, amazing. fresh and vibrant.
Jason Elkins (01:08:04.271)
Hey, you just said something made me realize we’ve missed out on something because we went from, you went back to London after Kilimanjaro and then we need, and then I just heard you say when I was managing camps and was it Zambia? I don’t know, would have been Tanzania, right? It was Zambia. Okay, so get us to that point. How the heck did you end up doing that?
Lucinda (01:08:14.859)
Yep.
Lucinda (01:08:24.33)
No, no, stop it. Yeah.
So I think I said before that I’d Come a jar came back I was an estate agent and I actually got long story short, but I major redundancy I was a I was trying to work out how I get back to Africa, but without having to pay to be on safari the entire time
Jason Elkins (01:08:50.932)
It’s kind of like going to museums without having to pay to get in. You’re smart. You’re a smart woman.
Lucinda (01:08:54.286)
Right. Yeah, so I was like, how do I do this? I know I’ll take a become a photographer, take all these sort of qualifications, and then I can try and my way in that way. But then events have took me I got made redundant. And I spoke to somebody who I knew, who put me in touch with a couple of camps in Zambia. And their season had already started. So I got interviewed by one on the telephone because it’s obviously pre zoom and
routines and all of that sort of thing. And literally flew out 10 days later, packed up the flight in London, go out to Zambia, landed in Zambia as this sort of fresh-faced English girl who had been to Africa once. I got told that I wasn’t going to be at the lodge that they thought I was going to be at because somebody had left so I needed to go to this camp called Machinja in the South of Nalangwa.
And at that stage, when I was there, was sort of the premier camp in that area at the time. Two hours into the National Park, was tented but with baths in the room, on the side, on the banks of the Luangwa River with the most incredible views, open air bathrooms, only five tents. And there I was deposited the next day.
No internet, obviously. It’s long before the likes of Stalin came into being. No mobile signal. our only communication with the outside world was our two-way radio back to base. I just found my place. I have the hippos for company. had an amazing crew that I work with. I was as happy as a, I don’t know, kid in a chocolate factory. I just…
Jason Elkins (01:10:35.835)
before.
Jason Elkins (01:10:46.865)
All right.
Lucinda (01:10:47.528)
It was just amazing. Living in a grass, my room was made of grass. The shower was attached to an ebony tree. It was just bliss.
Jason Elkins (01:10:49.691)
What did your-
Jason Elkins (01:11:02.289)
What did your friends and family think?
Lucinda (01:11:05.1)
think I thought I’ve lost the So when I take it back, when I went to one of the surprising things, I think is how it changed my life. But when I went back to Kilimanjaro, when I started Kilimanjaro, dad looked at me and he said, this could change your life. You know, whatever. And then it had. So when I look back at it, I think I came back to the person I had different priorities, I had different
Jason Elkins (01:11:07.089)
Hahaha!
Lucinda (01:11:34.37)
passions, potentially, although at that stage, I possibly wouldn’t put them as a passion. And largely, I mean, my friends were all incredibly supportive. I miss a lot of weddings. But, you know, I, I was meant to only do it for five months. The problem was that I loved it too much. And the company said, want to stay in? That was not a decision I had to make. That was just yes. So
I think, yeah, it just bit me and it bit me hard.
Jason Elkins (01:12:06.171)
Wow. See you. I don’t want to make any assumptions, but everything I’m hearing sounds like you did this as a solo woman picking up and moving to Africa to manage a camp where presumably I managed a lodge in Belize. It’s not Africa, but there were challenges and I was with a partner and I’m trying to imagine being there by myself where you’ve got.
Either your guests or your staff. Both can be great. Honestly, both are wonderful, but the guests are usually there for a few days, gone. And new group, new group of guests. So constant new group of guests. And then your staff, I’m to try and be very tactful. They are living sometimes in difficult conditions as well, where maybe they’re not as excited to be there as you are because
Lucinda (01:12:37.132)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (01:13:04.677)
Maybe they are. don’t know. You can tell me, but oftentimes in places like that, they’re away from their families for extended periods of time. I’m imagining that they probably share a bunkhouse of some sort, so they don’t necessarily have a lot of, I don’t know. You tell me.
Lucinda (01:13:19.774)
We had
Well, we had big, big shed rooms. So there were two per room. So it wasn’t like a bunk house. It was just two per room. I was the only female in the camp. I was the only sort of on the staff. I was the only white female in camp. But we didn’t have it.
Jason Elkins (01:13:43.557)
and the only probably person from overseas that didn’t grow up in the country. That’s challenging.
Lucinda (01:13:47.458)
I’m the only person from overseas. Everyone else came from the local town. It was one of the most rewarding things I could have done because you are immersed in this life. And I was told before I went that Zambians are incredibly friendly. And my goodness are they. They are just fabulous. And we had a ball. We just had a ball because it’s, I think as long as
doesn’t matter where you are in the world, what you’re doing, what your job is. I think if you meet people, if you’re prepared to do what they’re doing, they will meet you more than halfway. So I’d never want to say something that I wasn’t prepared to do myself, with the exception of getting rid of a snake, because apparently I don’t do those. But so they understood that and they very nice to me. But otherwise, I mean, we used to have fun, because you’re living
Jason Elkins (01:14:33.391)
Hahaha
Lucinda (01:14:44.578)
These guys become your family. So you want to become, oh, well, you know, I’m the only woman and I’m the only white woman. And that’s a very, very stupid thing to do because you’re missing out on chatting to them, learning about them, learning about their life, learning about their culture, learning about what makes them tick, having a laugh, you know, just enjoying being a family in camp. And there was sort of 14, 15 of them at any one time and me, and we just had a great time.
Jason Elkins (01:15:11.525)
I wonder how similar it is to my experience in Belize was I loved getting to know the staff. There’s always a challenge because there’s always a, well, I’m kind of, I don’t want to say the boss. I don’t like that word, but the guy that owns the place is going to ask me why the tractor got broken. I’m just saying. Yes.
Lucinda (01:15:20.194)
Yep.
Lucinda (01:15:28.246)
Thanks.
Lucinda (01:15:32.64)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you have to create that that but I think if they respect you and I think you earn their respect by getting your hands dirty as well. So I’d be in the kitchen helping them cook or be making the beds or be, you know, if that’s what they needed me to do, or they say me send a bus out because we’ve got this can you go and you know, and do whatever you need to do. And I had other roles, you know, I had to get all the
Jason Elkins (01:15:42.437)
Yes. Yes, yes.
Jason Elkins (01:15:47.803)
Mm-hmm.
Lucinda (01:15:59.732)
orders right, and I had to do all the menus and I had to do all the sort of room allocations. So there was, you know, you will have a role within camp, and you don’t step in that role. and of course, families, whoever you’re with, always going to have moments. But never was there a moment where I thought I’m so unhappy here. And I was never unhappy. They were, I just find them incredibly respectful. In fact, when at the end of season, we have have a sort of, you know, end of season party in the village.
Jason Elkins (01:16:05.166)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (01:16:19.633)
Yeah.
Lucinda (01:16:28.352)
I’d meet all their wives and their kids. And that was just lovely because then you don’t get a chance during the season. But they wanted me to meet their families. And so that meant that I’d actually got it right somehow.
Jason Elkins (01:16:43.671)
very I’m not surprised you’ve got that personality. I’m curious if ever happened to you because I got quite close to some of this the staff and they would share things with me that you know after a while I felt like they really accepted me when they started forgetting that I don’t understand Creel like when they when they’d come around the corner and just start talking to me in Creel I was like you think
Lucinda (01:16:46.754)
No.
Lucinda (01:17:03.37)
Yeah.
Lucinda (01:17:08.001)
Yep.
Jason Elkins (01:17:10.063)
You’ve accepted me now because they’re very good at turning it off and on with the guests and with other people that are not from Belize. But one thing that I got a few times is
in Belize and maybe the same in Africa is oftentimes they will hire someone from outside the country to come in and live at a lodge and run a lodge. That was definitely the case where I was at. And a few times somebody on the staff would say, I don’t know why they have to bring somebody in from the US or the UK to run the lodge. They think we can’t do it ourselves. And then I’d look at them, I’d say, would you want my job? Like, no.
Lucinda (01:17:29.462)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (01:17:50.417)
Nobody on the staff wanted it because I had to live on, you know, they got to go home. They got to go home every, you know, seven to 10 days and spend a few days with their family or whatever. And they didn’t have the headaches. And in the afternoon when they were done guiding or done with the landscaping, they’d go hang out in the barracks, call them barracks, bunkhouse, whatever, and drink their rum and listen to their radios and just have a nice time. And I was sitting with the guests until 10, 11 o’clock at night.
Lucinda (01:18:06.667)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:18:20.123)
But anyway, did that? Yeah, does that sound familiar?
Lucinda (01:18:24.906)
Yes and no, think I think they liked having a buffer between the two because you can be the bridge between and actually what I what I’m really pleased to see now is that they taking fewer people from Europe and employing more local people because they brought them up through the system and they they can train them and they’ve got sort of courses specific to it.
But I think at the time, it was still seen as a sort of, you have to be able to relate to the guests. Because particularly in the camps where I worked, and very often across Africa still, dinners are hosted every night. So it’s like having a house party. And if you’ve got people who don’t always get on, if you’ve got people who are talking about something that…
the guide has no knowledge of or interest in, know, it’s actually your role to bring it back to where we are to stop the any friction that there might be but to also include the guides so that the guide isn’t just sitting there. They’re not just taken. They’re actually, you know, so you can let the conversation go wild, but then you just say, so, you know, whatever the guy’s name is, what are we doing tomorrow or
where were the lions today? You know, what were the lions doing today? Because I know he’s already told me. But actually, it’s kind of a let’s bring it back. This is where we are. Let’s enjoy where we are. And so I think having somebody who understood that and could relate on both sides did help a bit for the staff, particularly for the guides, because the guides are the ones who are hosting as well and sitting there and, you know, suddenly being talked about by the
Jason Elkins (01:19:53.435)
Mm-hmm.
Lucinda (01:20:21.73)
politics of you know, UK politics or American politics. They don’t necessarily have the same information that you and I have, which probably a thing. And nor do they have the interest in because they’ve got their own politics and they’ve got their own system and they’ve got their own troubles within the country. So instead of talking about what we’ve talked about in London or America somewhere, why don’t we talk about if you want to talk politics, why don’t you ask the guide about Zambian
system or politics or whatever, to try and bring it back. So I think having that person as the bridge was always a good thing.
Jason Elkins (01:20:51.451)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (01:20:59.611)
Well, yeah, I agree. And probably significantly for the guests that are visiting because, you know, many of them, this is their first time to Africa and they’re not going to figure it all out in the first few days. And if they’ve got potential and that’s obviously Africans can absolutely host these lodges and somebody coming from the UK that shows up, they’re feeling a little bit of an overwhelm and disconnect.
culturally may not open the lodge manager. Maybe she’s from Zambia or he’s from Zambia and he’s amazing, but there’s, it’s going to take them four days before they even realize they can have a conversation with people because they’re a little overwhelmed sometimes. And when there’s someone there with a familiar face, familiar accent and a familiar, you know, common ground, it’s so much easier to walk over to that person like you, Hey, listen to this. Our first time to Africa. We’re not sure how to, you know,
talk to the guide about what we want to see or whatever, right? Yeah. yeah, that’s a tough one. That’s a really good example because…
Lucinda (01:21:57.255)
tip or what should we do about tips? You know, that’s always the big one. What do we do about tips? Yeah. But they feel that they can ask me much more than the guide.
Jason Elkins (01:22:11.281)
Yeah. And if there was, hmm, I think this is a story I have in my head. Like I’ll use the example of Belize. If one of my staff in Belize became the manager and was the one having dinner with the guests every night and was, I think it would be hard for many of our guests to walk up to, I’ll use an example, you know, Michael, maybe he’s, maybe he’s the guy.
I think it’s harder for them to walk up to Michael who looks, sounds like, and has very cultural similarity with all of the guides and the staff. It’s hard to walk up to Michael and say, hey, Michael, how much should we tip? They’d walk up to me, no problem. Like, I look like I’m the odd guy out. They’d walk up to me and say, Jason, help us figure out how much to tip the staff. And they’d have a completely honest conversation with me.
because they didn’t see me as the guy that was gonna go back and drink rum with the staff in the evening and, so-and-so said this and said that, but this is just a perception in their head. I’m not saying that’s what would happen, but I think there’s that perception.
Lucinda (01:23:20.197)
No, I agree. And also, they’re probably not going to tip you, right? So therefore, there’s not this embarrassment that, you know, I can’t ask them because I want to give them a tip. So.
Jason Elkins (01:23:25.381)
Yeah, yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:23:31.503)
Yeah, you don’t want to ask the person you’re going to tip how do I handle tips? It seems weird, right? It’s uncomfortable.
Lucinda (01:23:35.271)
Yeah, so you’re more comfortable asking somebody that you’re not going to tip, which is perfect as well. mean, we all know, it doesn’t matter how much information to offer, for then that you put in the room about that sort of thing, they’re still going to ask. It’s human nature.
Jason Elkins (01:23:52.561)
Yeah, they’re not gonna read it or if they do, they’re not gonna believe it. That’s fine, I get that. That’s human nature. You know, because you could say, you get to be tactful about this as somebody that’s set up a lot of trips and led a lot of trips. They’d say, oh, well, how much should we tip? And in your head, you’re like, didn’t you read the trip planner that I put all that time and effort into putting together? And if it’s a super fun, playful person, they have said that.
Lucinda (01:23:56.393)
Yeah.
Lucinda (01:24:13.569)
New one!
Jason Elkins (01:24:20.121)
you know, just jokingly and they say, well, yeah, I read it. And I’m like, you just didn’t believe me? Well, no, I didn’t. I thought maybe I got outdated or, know, whatever. anyway, so so you were managing camps. How long were you managing camps in Africa?
Lucinda (01:24:21.616)
Yeah.
Yeah, well you just didn’t take it in or, yeah. Yeah.
Lucinda (01:24:34.919)
I did four seasons, but I was there during the rains as well. So it wasn’t quite four years, but in terms of the safari season, it was four safari seasons. But then I did three rainy periods as well. But then I got hit on the wrist by a falling sausage root. That’s just sad.
Jason Elkins (01:25:03.461)
Wait, wait, I heard you say you got hit on the wrist or the head, okay, by a what kind of fruit?
Lucinda (01:25:04.793)
Yeah, so that’s gonna take some unpacking, right?
Mm-hmm.
Lucinda (01:25:14.449)
Stop stitch.
Jason Elkins (01:25:17.169)
which comes from a sausage tree, right? There’s a camp in Zambia called Sausage Tree, isn’t there?
Lucinda (01:25:19.335)
Yeah, it does. yeah, there is. So, sausage trees are Cagalia africanus in Latin. They are, if you can imagine a sort of oak tree, I don’t know what the equivalent is, you know what an oak tree is, right? That sort of, So, big strong tree, quite tall.
Jason Elkins (01:25:41.123)
an oak tree, a big strong tree, oak? Yeah.
Lucinda (01:25:47.591)
and then it has dangling from it on incredibly thin strings really, things that look like salamis, sausages. So you can imagine that salami in its skin.
Jason Elkins (01:25:58.257)
You sound like you’re, sound like when you talk about the very thin strings, it sounded like you were thinking about contacting a lawyer about how these trees are designed. These are not safe. This was poorly designed. It needs to be improved. Go ahead.
Lucinda (01:26:08.711)
Well, really, you know, this is a 15 kilo pod on a really flimsy string. And yeah, that they are ubiquitous in Zambia, they’re known as the supermarket tree because the impala will be they’ve got incredibly pretty red flowers which drop.
But so the impala and the baboons and the monkeys and the puku and the asphalites love that, love them. In fact, if you’ve anyone seen David Attenborough’s kingdom, his latest show that was in Zambia, and that will show you a leopard that had learned how to hunt as one of those trees, all the impala came down and it jumped and landed on an impala. And that’s where I was based.
Jason Elkins (01:26:58.769)
It’s a good thing you got hit by a fruit instead of a leopard. Just looking at the bright side.
Lucinda (01:27:01.319)
Yeah, can you imagine? Yeah, it was, you know, it’s just one of those freakish things. We used to take sausages off any trees in the guest areas. But because we have quite a big back of house, and there were so many trees, we didn’t do that back of the house. And I was, just had a meeting in the afternoon, and I was walking back towards my room, and I had papers in one hand and my right wrist was down.
And I walked under the tree. And the next thing I know, there’s blood everywhere. I squealed and I’m holding my arm and this whole thing is full of blood and it hurts like 15 kilos sausage fruit had hit me. Long story short, the blood was just from where my ring had cut through my skin. The
The guides, to give you an idea of the force of it, the guides had done, so one of the guys who’d had the meeting had seen it come off the branch because they’d seen a little squirrel just above it. And we knew which sausage it was, obviously, so they did a calculation. It was the equivalent of a .357 rifle bullet hitting me. That was the force of this fruit pod hitting my wrist.
So my wrist was down. Luckily, well, if it had been up, it would have broken it. But it wasn’t. It was down. So it did have somewhere to go, which is why it had gone past the ring and cut the skin down to the bone. That’s fine. Incredibly painful. You’re in the middle of a national park. You take arnica and ice, probably some zikafenic, bandaged it, and carry on, which is pretty much what I did for a week. So painful.
And then went off duty, stayed with some friends who were managing another camp. And one of their guests happened to be an orthopedic surgeon on honeymoon. And his wife looked at him and said, don’t you dare. And she then made the mistake, thankfully, of going to the bathroom after dinner, and was sitting at this beautiful table under the stars. And he said, quick, I’ll just go to the bathroom. Let me look. So he ran around.
Lucinda (01:29:26.043)
And ultimately what has happened, and he put it back over a glass of wine, I dislocated my thumb and all the bones in my wrist have been knocked out of alignment. So he put it all right, but it got to the point where I could only move my fingers and my elbow. couldn’t actually move my wrist. So, long story short, I came back to the UK for treatment.
Jason Elkins (01:29:37.84)
oooh
Jason Elkins (01:29:51.109)
Yeah. All right. Then, sorry to hear all that. Thanks for sharing it. That’s, I.
Lucinda (01:29:57.634)
I mean, who gets hit by sausage fruit, right? It’s quite amusing. It’s like being hit by a picnic. It’s just…
Jason Elkins (01:30:02.705)
It’s such a better story than like we in Belize, we had the coconut trees and we were there eight months and I can’t believe nobody got hit by a coconut. You’d be walking through the place and you’d hear one thud, you know, pretty close to you and you’re like, man. Yeah. So it’s, but the sausage tree is like, that’s just a more exotic, cooler story. The coconuts kind of cliche. Yeah.
Lucinda (01:30:19.769)
I have a
Lucinda (01:30:26.471)
It just is funny, isn’t it? I mean, know, sausage hitting you.
Jason Elkins (01:30:31.375)
And here we are laughing about it right before you told me about you couldn’t move your wrist.
Lucinda (01:30:36.903)
Oh, no. I mean, to be honest with you, I was laughing even when it happened because quite frankly, I can’t believe this has happened. all it, you know, since I’m not and I’m absolutely A-OK, fine. But it brought me back to the UK and my friends all love sausage trees because it brought me home. Exactly that. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:30:44.279)
Wow.
Jason Elkins (01:30:55.953)
yeah. All right. Very cool. The gift from above, let’s say. All right. So how did you get from there to Ganders Travels where we started this conversation? Ganders Travel, I should say.
Lucinda (01:31:08.583)
Yeah, I when I got back, I found a job quite quickly working for another tour operator. So I knew that the treatment wasn’t going to be quick. So I needed to find something to keep me occupied. And I said work for another tour operator and did that for 13 years, nearly 13 years.
various things, not one thing in particular, but various things happen that make you sometimes think, sit up and think what you want. And it was a really nice company. It was a small company, there was nowhere else for me to go. I’ve sort of done what I could there. And I was incredibly comfortable. So I left, I knew that I had to make myself uncomfortable to find the next challenge. I think I said earlier in the conversation, I, I need a challenge, I need to be sort of, know, kept busy and make my brain work.
Jason Elkins (01:32:05.81)
And you knew that sitting at the desk there, sausage fruit wasn’t going to fall on you and create the change. So it was going to be up to you to do it. Yeah.
Lucinda (01:32:05.925)
So.
Lucinda (01:32:12.697)
Exactly that. Yeah, I needed a little bit more jeopardy. I left and didn’t know what was next. It slightly felt like him faded my life. So I I didn’t want to go to just another tour operator and do the same thing for them because that would just be stupid. But maybe I could get in the marketing route or I could do something else. And my business partners.
I’ve got business partners heard that I’ve resigned, I’ve known them for years and they approached me and Gantus was born long story short. They did come to me because they’re international fly fishing specialists, they said, well, what are you doing? said, don’t know. don’t know. least we’ll come and chat. And I did say to them that I don’t eat fish and I get seasick in a puddle. Possibly wasn’t the best person to come on board with that.
But it transpired that that’s not what they actually wanted. yeah, and this travel was for
Jason Elkins (01:33:24.069)
What are you-
What are you most excited about with your business right now?
Lucinda (01:33:31.911)
I mean, I love the fact that we launched in the end of September 2023. And so we’re nearly we’re two and half years in there. And I love that every day is different. Every day is challenge. Every day I’m learning something new. I’m doing something on the marketing or the account side. Because, you know, I know when I I know I’ve done a lot of travel and I’ve got a lot of experience in Africa itself and the trips themselves and the areas and what would work and what doesn’t from a client’s perspective.
But what I needed and what I’ve got now is the challenge of actually making this work. But I’ve also got control over imagery and something as basic as the logo. And I can thank my sister for that because she’s an artist and she did the logo for me. So you’ve got all this stuff coming in, which just means it’s quite personal and I have direct control over. So I’m excited to see where we can go.
grow it and maybe expand into different countries eventually. But for the moment, we need to sort of really build on the base that we’ve got. And I don’t go to work every day because I actually enjoy what I do. So you know that I’ll say, yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:34:46.191)
If you were, because I know we’ve got some listeners that are working as planners or different positions with tour operation companies that maybe have thought, I need to get outside of my comfort zone or I’d love to have my own, I’d love to be able to control the logo, for example. So they’re thinking about maybe doing it. What’s the biggest piece of advice either around the type of personality, like,
Like what’s the reality of what someone maybe thinks it’s going to be about, but then is going to find out later. or I don’t know if you know where I’m going with that, but what would you say to them?
Lucinda (01:35:25.467)
I do. I think it’s been suggested to me a few times before that I should do this on my own, by family members by my partner, and I wasn’t ready. And then, as say, various things happen, nothing that you can put your foot in, but it felt the right time to make myself uncomfortable, which is ultimately what I did. And if you are thinking about doing it, do it for the right reasons.
Don’t just do it because you can do it. Do it for the right reasons. Do it for you, but do it because you can think you may be able to do something slightly differently. You know, we’re all in this business because we love travel. We love experiencing new things. We love meeting people. And you definitely, you know, I’m still traveling every year, but I’m not traveling three times a year anymore because I can’t be away from the office as much as that. So don’t think just because you’re going to
own it that you can travel as much as you want. Because actually, the reality is that running a business is very different, but it is really rewarding as well. So I wouldn’t ever say to somebody, don’t do it. But I’d say just do it for the right reasons.
Jason Elkins (01:36:37.137)
For the right reasons is definitely the important part. You mentioned earlier that you worked in real estate sales. I don’t know what your reason for doing that was. Maybe that was money. Maybe you thought, well, I’m good with people. Yeah, I’m good with people. Yeah, whatever.
Lucinda (01:36:44.935)
Mm.
Lucinda (01:36:50.215)
just fell into it.
Jason Elkins (01:36:57.169)
this other than when you do something for the right reason, tends to be enjoyable, tends to be successful. If you do it for somebody else because somebody else is telling you, wow, you’ve got a great personality, you should go be a real estate agent. And you’re like, well, really what I want to do is travel the world with a suitcase. If there’s a conflict there, you know, it took me a while to figure that out.
Lucinda (01:37:20.123)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:37:23.345)
But like you said, what I’ve also noticed in the tourism business, you know, cause I’ve worked for tour operations. I’ve had my own tour operating business. And when you are kind of, I don’t want to say at the bottom, but in the, in the trenches, when you’re leading trips or, you know, a guide, you’ve got a lot of time to go around and see stuff. And, and as you work your way up, I’ve, noticed, you know, I worked for a tour operation company for nine years and I started, I was traveling all the time.
And after nine years I was running the business and I hadn’t traveled in a year or so because it’s just hard to do it. You’re like, well, I really feel like I need to be here. And I’ve got younger junior associates who need to get out and see these places. I’ve already seen a lot of these places. Yeah. So they, I can’t be gone and them, you know, I can’t have one of them in Mongolia, another one in Africa, and then I’m going to be in Iceland. It just doesn’t work. I.
Lucinda (01:37:56.241)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lucinda (01:38:06.927)
I need them to see it, I need them to learn it.
Jason Elkins (01:38:19.993)
I found myself holding down the fort while the junior associates would go out and do it. And then I realized, that’s the way it was when I was one of the junior associates. My boss wasn’t traveling very often. yeah, it’s a, so if you jump, if you’re a travel planner and you jump into owning your own travel business, don’t do it because you think you’re going to travel more probably not that.
Lucinda (01:38:41.291)
Yeah, and I think that’s true. I think in the UK, we’ve got, you know, I don’t know about what it’s like in America. In the UK, we’ve got a lot of regulation around travel, which is as it should be, because people’s money needs to be protected. But that is quite it’s not owners, but it is really important. And it’s not it’s not the sexy side of travel. But it is running the business, that is an important part of that.
actually enjoy because it’s a new challenge for me and I’m how to do that and I’m, you know, working it all out. But if you’re not wanting to do that side of it, do think again, because there is a business side of this as well as the side of it.
Jason Elkins (01:39:24.593)
Absolutely. Listen, I think we could just keep going on and on and on, because there’s so many fascinating, I used to have so many questions left for you, but we’re gonna have to have you come back for that. I wanna be respectful of your time and our listeners, we’ve chatted for a while. Before I hit the record button, I said, oh, we’ll probably chat 45 minutes to an hour. I did go a couple hours once, but.
Lucinda (01:39:41.775)
We have to have it for a while now. Sorry!
Mmm.
Jason Elkins (01:39:51.845)
That guy was real talkative and now I’m looking at the time and thinking, I hope you don’t think there’s no, no judgment. No, it’s, no, it’s me. just keep asking questions. I seriously want to know more. and I’m curious though, what did I forget to ask or what do wish I would have asked, that you’d like to share with our listeners before we do.
Lucinda (01:39:54.663)
Sorry.
Lucinda (01:40:13.511)
You know what? I don’t think there is anything I would say that thank you for this opportunity but also I just really enjoyed chatting about it and actually taking it me back all the way to Rome because somehow I don’t think that was part of this chapter if you like that sort of as a different chapter of my life, but it’s always been there, right? So You bringing that out. It’s quite interesting So thank you for that, but no, I think I think just you know, we work in a really fun
lovely industry and I’m passionate about the areas that we go to because of I think because of the enjoyment you get when you get there but I also think the you know it’s sort of going back to what you were saying about the Leeds and keeping that respect with people and your staff but they’re also family because you’re in a lodge I think that they never resented having me there when I looked at it the average
the average job in Africa, across Africa, across East and Southern Africa, at least, in tourism, supports at least 15 people back in the village. And where we were in Zambia, that was probably a figure of more like 25 people back in the village. So it’s such an important aspect for them, and they welcome you in. But you’re making a difference just by going. And that also, I think, probably feels into
why I love it and why when you get there you get a different feel to just sitting on a beach in Europe, which is lovely and I’ve done and I’ll probably do again. But, you know, there’s a difference to it.
Jason Elkins (01:41:51.537)
I’m so happy. Thank you. Thank you for all of your words. And I’m so happy that we had this conversation because as the name of the show, Big World Made Small, my first trip to Africa was a game changer for me. It was like, you know, the deep dark Africa, you know, for for a lot of people from the United States. That’s a big deal. It’s probably a big deal for people in Europe as well. But maybe I’d argue you guys are a little closer than we are in the U.S. and
Lucinda (01:42:13.275)
Yeah.
Lucinda (01:42:20.475)
Here we are.
Jason Elkins (01:42:21.757)
And in the US, we’re further from a lot of things. Number one, it’s not like we’re Australia. But also just we have a lot of preconceived ideas about the world. I’m just saying we is, I know it’s generalization, not everybody, but I grew up in that culture. We’ve got preconceived ideas about what people are like in other parts of the world because, you know, in Africa is a huge continent. hear of a conflict and I’m not downplaying any conflicts.
But you hear of a conflict in Africa. That means Africa is dangerous. Africa is unsettled and why on earth would anybody want to go there? It’s so far.
Lucinda (01:43:05.425)
I’m so pleased you mentioned that. I’m so pleased you mentioned that. Have you seen the map? There is a map that has the continent of Africa, just the outline, and then it has the entire rest of the world, but it has a large part of the rest of the world fitted into it in La Masse. And I think it’s
Jason Elkins (01:43:14.459)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (01:43:21.563)
I have seen that where they take you out of the landmass and put it all together and show that it’s its own little world.
Lucinda (01:43:27.831)
I think that’s a really visual impact about the size of Africa. And you can be sitting in Botswana, it’s a happy place despite the sausage fruit, and you’re almost away from what that reporter is talking about in Nigeria, Burundi, know, wherever.
Jason Elkins (01:43:56.273)
And you know, I think we can say that and it’s app. think you and I are, I don’t know. going to say drink in the Kool-Aid. I think we’re on the same page. know, and for somebody that hasn’t traveled much, I mean, for somebody in the U S listing that they’re probably not listening to this show. They haven’t traveled much. I’m probably just wasting everybody’s time bringing this up, but it’s a, but the point is, you know, if you’re in, you know, thinking about going to Yellowstone park in Wyoming,
Lucinda (01:44:04.508)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:44:25.847)
And then you hear about, you know, riots in Los Angeles. You’re not going to change your trip. You’re going to go to Wyoming, you know, and that’s like, yeah, because yeah, it feels safe. But if you’re thinking about going to Zambia and you hear about Arab spring happening in Egypt and well, that’s Africa. So probably better not go right now.
Lucinda (01:44:37.863)
But that’s because you know it, and it’s your country.
Jason Elkins (01:44:55.365)
I get it. I’m in Mexico City right now. I don’t know when this episode will be aired, but there was recently a situation with a cartel leader who is, I don’t know how to say this, they got him. And there was some, he unalived him, I think is what you can say on YouTube now. Anyway, and I’m not making any joke of it, because there were other people involved and it was, you know, overall, you know, a lot.
Lucinda (01:45:09.827)
I was going to say, he is no longer.
Jason Elkins (01:45:24.741)
Bad things and, but I’m in Mexico city and then Porto Barato was having some issues. And, know, even my son who’s traveled to Asia with me and to Columbia with me is, dad, I think you should get out of Mexico. And when you and I, before I hit the record button, we were, were discussing that and the reality is life is going on completely as normal here in Mexico city. And, so anybody that’s listening to this, that probably doesn’t need to hear me say it, but I would encourage you to go travel.
Go, you know, test your stories. Test those stories in your head. Yeah.
Lucinda (01:45:55.811)
teeth and if you’re
There’s the stories in your head. And if you’re a tool, I’m sure even if you’re not unsure, I’m going to say use a tool operator. And the reason I say that, particularly someone like Africa is because it’s no more expensive. But as we said at the beginning, it’s expensive to get rolled. But then you’ve got the reassurance as well. And you’ve got you’re slightly more handheld. And so if it is your first trip and you’re worried if it’s your 100th trip, you’re not worried. I still
will obviously say to our operators. I do think that having that, even if you think I want to go to Africa and using your example, Botswana versus Egypt, speak to somebody who knows, you know, we want to go, but is it too close? Is it going to affect it? And they will soon be able to tell you why it won’t and be able to sort of explain it in simpler terms.
Jason Elkins (01:46:32.326)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:46:53.125)
Yeah. And even if you set the safety side apart as some, you know, someone who went to Africa for a first time, I went back a second time as well, but there’s a lot you don’t know and you don’t know what you don’t know. And I’m not talking about security issues. You could probably get on a plane and fly to, is it Lusaka in Zambia? Right. Yep. You could probably fly there. There’s a couple of lodges. You could probably walk down the street and see if they have space. You could probably do it.
Lucinda (01:47:08.667)
Hey!
Lucinda (01:47:13.627)
Yes? Yep.
Jason Elkins (01:47:23.185)
but you don’t know what you don’t know and you’re gonna miss out on some really cool stuff. So if you’re gonna spend a plane ticket to go all, that’s the whole point is you’re not even gonna know it was there if you just, I mean, yeah, there’s Google, there’s ChatGPT, but ChatGPT tells me everything is wonderful. especially me, it’s my best friend. All right, Lucinda.
Lucinda (01:47:27.953)
That’s a really, really good point, yeah.
Lucinda (01:47:39.653)
There he is, but…
You see?
Jason Elkins (01:47:51.365)
Thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on, sharing your stories with us and spending your time with us. And I look forward to having another conversation again soon. Thank you so much.
Lucinda (01:47:52.465)
Thank you very much.
Lucinda (01:48:01.787)
I look forward to it. Thank you very much, Jason. Cheers. Bye bye.

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