Guest Bio
Matthew C. Johnson is the president of the Sustainable Ascents Foundation, an organization dedicated to promoting sustainable tourism in the climbing industry. Matthew is an adventure traveler, part-time endurance athlete, and a self-described mosh pit enthusiast. He is also an accidental Fellow at the Royal Geographical Society. His work focuses on creating responsible tourism models that benefit local communities, particularly in the areas surrounding climbing expeditions. Matthew’s personal journey—from a free-range childhood to his advocacy for climbing practices that promote local involvement—drives the foundation’s mission of empowering communities through sustainable tourism.
Show Summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, Jason Elkins interviews Matthew C. Johnson, president of the Sustainable Ascents Foundation. Matthew shares his journey in the adventure travel industry, emphasizing the importance of sustainable tourism practices, especially in climbing. They discuss how responsible climbing can empower local communities, the disparities in privilege seen on expeditions like Kilimanjaro, and how the foundation aims to develop models that prioritize local involvement. The conversation also covers new projects in Bolivia and the Caucasus region, where sustainability and community engagement are key themes in tourism development.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Sustainable tourism can empower local communities – The focus is on involving locals in the tourism process to create economic opportunities.
- ✓ Climbing development should prioritize local involvement – Ensuring that local communities are part of tourism development is crucial for long-term success.
- ✓ Cultural immersion enhances the travel experience – Travelers gain a deeper understanding of the places they visit through authentic cultural exchanges.
- ✓ Tourism creates economic opportunities for locals – When managed responsibly, tourism can be a powerful tool for economic growth in local communities.
- ✓ Community engagement is vital for sustainable practices – Sustainable tourism models must prioritize the input and involvement of local communities.
- ✓ The foundation aims to create a model for responsible tourism – Their focus is on developing best practices for tourism that benefit both travelers and local communities.
- ✓ Volunteers are essential for community projects – Volunteer efforts play a significant role in advancing sustainable tourism projects.
- ✓ Cultural exchange enriches both travelers and locals – Travel offers an opportunity for mutual learning and understanding between cultures.
- ✓ Sustainable tourism should avoid overwhelming local cultures – Careful planning is needed to ensure that tourism doesn’t negatively impact local traditions and lifestyles.
- ✓ Future projects will focus on gradual, responsible growth – The goal is to ensure that tourism in new regions grows in a sustainable manner that respects local cultures and environments.
What You’ll Find at Sustainable Ascents Foundation
- ✓ Responsible tourism models that empower local communities
- ✓ Projects focused on sustainable climbing practices
- ✓ Cultural exchange programs to enrich travel experiences
- ✓ Support for volunteer-driven community projects
- ✓ Commitment to sustainable growth in the adventure tourism industry
👉 Visit Sustainable Ascents Foundation Official Website to learn more about their mission and the projects they’re working on to make adventure travel more sustainable and community-focused.
Learn more about Sustainable Ascents Foundation and connect with Matthew at:
https://www.sustainableascents.org/
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Jason Elkins (00:00.844)
Welcome back everybody to the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. So happy to have each and every one of you back here today. Today we’ve got a special guest and another special guest. But this guy’s pretty interesting. I’ve had a couple of conversations with him now and excited to kind of share what is going on in his world with all the listeners. So we’ve got Matthew Johnson. Matthew is the president of, we were just discussing the he’s the president slash director slash maybe a little bit of everything, I guess.
He’s with the Sustainable Assents Foundation. Matthew, welcome to the show.
Matthew C Johnson (00:34.066)
Thank you.
Jason Elkins (00:35.706)
Happy to happy to have you here. Did I get that right president director? Everything man of many hats
Matthew C Johnson (00:38.704)
Yes, yeah, that’s good. Yeah, that’s what happens with nonprofits getting built up. A lot of people do a lot of jobs.
Jason Elkins (00:49.026)
You know, it’s you mentioned non-profit specifically, but I’ve kind of noticed that in my own business as well. It feels like it’s non-profit most of the time, but definitely, definitely a bunch of different hats. So, but that’s, that’s pretty cool. So Matthew, what we’re going to do, we’re going to jump back into kind of your story. Cause I find that the people I chat with have an interesting story. How did they get from where they were to where they are now? And.
But I also think that before we do that, let’s give our listeners kind of the 30, 60 second elevator pitch for what is the sustainable essence foundation so that then they can, you know, stick around and learn a little bit more about it when we get to that point in your life. So how does that sound? So what’s the elevator pitch?
Matthew C Johnson (01:33.618)
guess the elevator pitch is we’re trying to change the way that climbing development is done around the world into a model where people coming in from the outside partner with the individuals, the locals on the ground from day one. We empower them to make their decisions as to how development is done in the land where they live so that the climbing development money doesn’t go to foreign climbing organizations.
Jason Elkins (01:35.244)
is we’re trying to change the way that climbing.
Jason Elkins (01:55.214)
that climbing the boat in the morning doesn’t go…
Matthew C Johnson (02:01.348)
exclusively. We try to bring all the local people in from day one so that they feel empowered, they’re engaged, and the money stays in the villages to the extent possible.
Jason Elkins (02:08.254)
Perfect. That’s a, it’s a great thing. We’ve had a few guests on the show that we’ve had a couple of conversations around, you know, the different organizations and how to, you know, how do they, as operators ensure that they’re, you know, that the people that are on the ground carrying things up the side of the mountain.
as well as just the other people in the community that support it. So it’s it’s a big thing. So I look forward to circling back to that point and discussing that more. And how the heck did you get from where you were to where you are now? I don’t know how far back we need to go. Sometimes we go back to young childhood. Sometimes it’s high school, whatever. So how far do you think we need to go back? So our listeners could understand what got you into this.
Matthew C Johnson (02:55.826)
I got here very accidentally, so I’ll give the quick version. I grew up in Marquetta on the south shore of Lake Superior, upper Michigan. My childhood was pretty free range. looked like that 1986 movie Stand By Me, with the kids running down the railroad track looking for a body. That was my childhood and never traveled much.
Jason Elkins (03:11.151)
Okay. That’s my favorite movie. That’s my favorite all time movie. I don’t know why, but something about it so that I can relate to that. All right. Very cool.
Matthew C Johnson (03:23.974)
I didn’t start really traveling to my thirties, but my first trip was actually to Kilimanjaro and decided I wanted to bring my own equipment, do my own work because I grew up as like a Midwestern backpacker. And since I had all my own gear, I thought I could do as I pleased on the mountain, which meant instead of setting my tent up in the campsites with all the tourists, I set it up in the campsites with all the workers every night, which made it like a really immersive.
Jason Elkins (03:37.486)
Since I had all my own gear, I thought I could do as I pleased on the move. Which meant instead of putting my tent up in the campsites with all the tourists, I set it up in the campsite.
Yeah
Matthew C Johnson (03:52.882)
You know, travel experience that just really bit me. And from there, it was just a few more trips in the mountains. Ended up in the North caucuses on a private exploratory deal. Drown some beautiful Alpine valleys with, you know, rural pastoral communities that had very little economic activity, but great potential. And from there, just kind of got an idea about trying to set up a model where climbers benefited, the communities benefited.
Jason Elkins (04:21.582)
pine has benefited, the candy has at least that’s what the Alpine Club is doing.
Matthew C Johnson (04:23.25)
I reached out to the Alpine Club and British Mountaineering Council in the UK, the German Alpine Club got some feedback. Ended up talking to Nathaniel J. Menninger, is the man who started the mountain worker initiative at the UIAA, the International Climbing Body. After input from all those people, I decided to start a company to actually do this thing.
Jason Elkins (04:42.497)
All right, we’re gonna Very cool. We’re gonna come back but and touch and go deeper into that but I have a feeling we missed a few things because we jumped from Stand by me to climbing Mount Kilimanjaro with all the guides so there I just imagine that there’s some stuff that happened in between there so
Let’s go back to when you were a kid. You said you kind of free range, you’re out and about doing stuff. Did you have family or people around you that were influencing you to do the hiking and that stuff? mean, just tell us a little bit more about that if you don’t
Matthew C Johnson (05:22.322)
you know, an active outdoor family, but not one that traveled. So I spent a lot of time just on the family property on my grandfather’s farm, trout fishing, you know, running around with friends. And by the time high school and college came, I was backpacking. And the leap from backpacking to climbing was simply my own inherent impatience. had a 10 day
Jason Elkins (05:37.166)
high school.
Jason Elkins (05:40.686)
And the week from back-packing to climbing was simply violent compared to the previous ones. I had a 10-day 100-mile solo route planned for the blog post. And about a month before I was supposed to go, I tore my things. I was on a hunger-ridden road. I remember the only thing that would last was a modern day compared to the previous ones.
Matthew C Johnson (05:50.096)
hundred mile solo loop plan for the Bob Marshall in Montana. And about a month before I was supposed to go, I tore my Achilles. I was unable to go. And I really wanted to get in the mountains, did not want to wait an entire another year before I could go off climbing by myself in the mountains. And so just jumped on Google and it’s like mountain trek, January, February.
Jason Elkins (06:12.366)
So just jumped into Google and I was on a trip getting there very, very hard to find options and came back with killing a jar of oil. So I’ll do my first solo international trip. So that, yeah, that was your first trip outside of the US. I did.
Matthew C Johnson (06:19.088)
I had to find options and came back with Kilimanjaro. was like, I never thought of that. I guess I’ll do my first solo international travel.
Matthew C Johnson (06:33.008)
I did a trip in high school with my German class, but that was my first actual independent travel.
Jason Elkins (06:39.07)
Okay, all right. So you went when you went with the German class presumably to Germany. I don’t want to make too many assumptions, but that’s would be my best guess. Okay, either that or maybe Namibia or something like that. But how long how long were you in Germany?
Matthew C Johnson (06:44.401)
Yes.
Right?
Matthew C Johnson (06:55.058)
It wasn’t three weeks, I think three, three and a half weeks during the summer break.
Jason Elkins (06:58.798)
Okay. Did do you remember thinking, wow, this being traveling stuff is pretty cool or was it, I mean, no? Wow.
Matthew C Johnson (07:06.49)
Not at that time, no. I was homesick, I was used to being able to run around with friends and dogs and the class trip was completely scripted. So I was, and I didn’t see my friends half of the time because we were all in our own individual host families and my host family was way out of the countryside. So for me, it was a bit of a shock. I wasn’t quite ready.
Jason Elkins (07:14.12)
yeah.
Jason Elkins (07:25.198)
way out of the countryside. For me, was a bit of a shock. wasn’t quite ready. And actually, I’ve had a few conversations with people that did the, you know, something in school went for a few weeks and had kind of a not so exciting experience. then it kind of years later, all of a this desire to go travel kind of came back in. So did. So when you were in high school, college, you weren’t really thinking about.
Matthew C Johnson (07:53.713)
Not at all.
Jason Elkins (07:53.868)
International travel just wasn’t just hiking, backpacking, some fishing.
Matthew C Johnson (07:56.786)
None, yeah, nobody in my friend group traveled outside of the U.S. Maybe a few random trips with family didn’t get talked about much. None of my close friends traveled. We were, you know, country boys, deer hunting, fishing.
Jason Elkins (08:10.594)
Okay.
Yep. Well, I can relate to that. grew up in Wyoming. So the fishing and the hunting and all that stuff was a big part of my life as well. Very cool. So tell me this, Matthew, what did you end up studying in school? I’m just trying to get a feel for what kind of interesting. OK. All right. Did that prepare you at all? Did that prepare you? I was trying to figure out how ask this.
Matthew C Johnson (08:31.886)
mechanical engineering.
Matthew C Johnson (08:38.65)
Never enjoyed it.
Jason Elkins (08:43.18)
Cause we have a wide variety of listeners. don’t want to put any words in your mouth. but all right. So I was, I guess the question I was going to ask you is, that help you help prepare you for mountain climbing and charitable work and all that stuff? Or was it totally, do you feel like you’ve gone a totally different direction?
Matthew C Johnson (08:59.298)
It was, it was, let’s see, so nothing I did prior to the travel prepared me for it at all. I didn’t have much exposure to even the concept of charity work or international travel. It was just the random experience of going to Kilimanjaro on a whim and living in the workers camps. And I got to see how different.
Jason Elkins (09:05.27)
I did
Jason Elkins (09:13.614)
you
Jason Elkins (09:17.07)
the random experience of going to a carnival and living in the workers’ camps and we got to see a different lifestyle with the workers’
Matthew C Johnson (09:26.546)
the lifestyles of the workers versus the usually rather affluent Westerners who are there. know when you go to Kila you have to hire a guy legally, the country wants people to get jobs. So I hired a guy just to walk next to me and keep me company essentially. But I paralleled a group.
Jason Elkins (09:36.0)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (09:44.718)
Did you, I’m curious. I’m curious about this Matthew, because I’ve done a fair amount of guiding and I’ve spent a lot of time with guides. And I’ll just share it, share when someone would hire me in Montana to go fishing. You know, when I was a fishing guide there, every once in while you get somebody who would show up and say, look, I know how to fish. I just need you to row the boat. Or like you almost kind of sounded like.
I just need you to walk next to me because I legally have to have you here. And sometimes the guide is like, boy, here we go. Do you have any recollection of what that guide was thinking when you hired him to just walk next to me? You don’t need to do anything. Just follow me up the mountain.
Matthew C Johnson (10:33.158)
He seemed to accept it. I did tell him that I didn’t want to accept any help of any form on the mountain, if possible. I brought all my own food. I brought my own expedition medicine, everything I would need. And he’s probably the first two to three days he kept trying to give me food, which I wouldn’t take. But the fun part came where the
Jason Elkins (10:37.198)
told him that I didn’t want to accept any-
Okay?
Jason Elkins (10:58.67)
One part came where I had some portals to the other companies, so they take interest. I was really weird in this area. I as caring as I could be.
Matthew C Johnson (11:01.232)
Guides and forges for the other companies starting to take interest as really weird, weird Nizumu who was carrying his own bag up the Long Hill emotional route. Cause I want to do the long route to acclimatize and then climb the Western breach and camp on the summit. My thought was I’ve come a long way is to see this mountain. I don’t want to do the standard thing where you leave at midnight, climb all night, spend 15 minutes at sunrise, taking selfies and then go home. I want to climb the breach and I’m going to put my tent up at the crater.
Jason Elkins (11:15.842)
Oh, okay. I honestly didn’t know you could camp on top. that, I guess, I guess you can if if you’ve got your own guide and doing your own thing.
Matthew C Johnson (11:31.418)
You know, hang out and spend some time.
Matthew C Johnson (11:38.331)
You can.
Matthew C Johnson (11:42.588)
They will, you know, can hire them to do that. It’s just not popular. usually try to save money, do the fastest route up, which means they’re not acclimatized.
Jason Elkins (11:44.046)
you can hire them to do that it’s just not popular people usually try to save money doing the fastest, well-produced
huh.
Matthew C Johnson (11:53.968)
And then sleeping at that altitude, if you’ve only been on the mountain for three days, you know, you’re going to probably get sick.
Jason Elkins (11:58.376)
that’s true. And I suspect that, I don’t know, I haven’t done Kilimanjaro. I’ve worked with clients that offer Kilimanjaro trips. So I’ve, you know, a little familiar with it, but I suspect that a lot of people that do it, you know, you get up there, you’ve got the picture with the big sign on top. You take your picture, you’re done. You’ve kind of, know,
Do you think that’s the case? You’ve been around mountain climbers enough. I there are an awful lot of them. Just I want to get to the top, take a picture, prove that I was there, and they’re maybe not able to really fully appreciate the experience or am I off base?
Matthew C Johnson (12:40.964)
It depends on their motivation. think a lot of people, more of the casual climber, they’ll do something like that so they can tell people that they did put it on social media. When you get into people who really enjoy spending time in the mountains, looking for new routes, know, exploring the summit is usually secondary. You’re there for the adventure, for the experience. Yeah. Like for myself and for my friends, you know, we’d rather
Jason Elkins (13:00.59)
Okay. All right. You don’t sound like I shouldn’t say this. Maybe I’ll edit this out later when I think about it, but you don’t sound like an engineer type.
Matthew C Johnson (13:09.348)
make it halfway up a new road and turn around then summit an old road, take a picture and go home.
Jason Elkins (13:27.818)
And I guess I should explain, I see you on the camera, so your face kind of, what do mean, Jason? In the sense that when you mentioned really experience it and, you know, and hanging out with the guides, you know, in the camp. And I think I sometimes I think of the engineer types as like, okay, let’s just, you know,
It’s a little feels a little bit more mechanical. I’m going to regret this. I’m not going to edit this out. I’m just I don’t edit this stuff. But anyway, I love that you’re really about the experience. And do you want to say anything to that or should we just move right on?
Matthew C Johnson (14:00.956)
Ha
Matthew C Johnson (14:11.452)
Well, to clarify, don’t work as an engineer. It never worked for me. I’m now a truck driver.
Jason Elkins (14:17.428)
Okay, well, that’s kind of what I meant when I mean, I, when you said I didn’t really like the engineering and now when you’re describing what you’re doing, I’m like, yeah, I can see where maybe that wouldn’t have been a great fit.
Matthew C Johnson (14:27.826)
But the aptitude comes, it plays a role because the, you know, the organizational bit where, you know, rather than relying on the guide, like I want to research expedition medicine and bring 13 different prescriptions with me and a suture kit and all the different foods. And, my diet for each campsite is planned for the altitude, depending on which oxygen I’ll have to digest different types of food.
Jason Elkins (14:35.31)
That’s true.
Jason Elkins (14:50.702)
All right, there’s the engineer in you. And you’re right, actually, when you mentioned that, you said, I brought all my stuff and you mentioned specifically the medical stuff. I was thinking, yeah, that does sound a little bit more like an engineer. So that’s a good mix and probably pretty important if you’re not going to hire a guide to help you. All right, that’s pretty cool. What I really want to ask you is if Kilimanjaro, if Kili was in Georgia,
Matthew C Johnson (14:52.614)
Yes.
Matthew C Johnson (15:09.564)
Right.
Jason Elkins (15:21.428)
and it was a good thing to do in January or February, go to Georgia and climate. Do you think you ever would have left the country?
Matthew C Johnson (15:28.882)
So you’re thinking Georgia, United States, state Georgia. Yes, because I’ve to the other.
Jason Elkins (15:31.574)
Yeah. yeah. Yeah. That’s an important distinction because we’re going to, we’re going to have a conference. I know, I know we’re going to have a conversation about the caucus caucuses. And so I shouldn’t have said Georgia. I should have said Alabama. Let’s rephrase it.
Matthew C Johnson (15:41.964)
if, if at that height, I, I think I would have considered it because I didn’t have any experience on mountains. And so it’s a natural first dabbling at altitude to see how you respond. it still makes sense as a starter.
Jason Elkins (15:52.462)
And so it’s a natural.
Jason Elkins (16:01.299)
So I guess the question I’m trying to ask is going to Africa was that any any drive it was just like no there’s a big mountain a high mountain I want to go climb a big high mountain that’s a good time of year to do it or was did you even care that it was in Africa I’m just curious
Matthew C Johnson (16:19.707)
It was my Achilles was going to be healed in January enough to climb a mountain and I didn’t want to wait till August to do it in the United States.
Jason Elkins (16:27.47)
I’m just going to go find a mountain. don’t… All right. That’s kind of what I got out of it. And the reason I’m asking is because I sense both in our previous conversations and in this conversation that you kind of enjoyed the cultural aspect and the people. Yeah. Yeah. So…
Matthew C Johnson (16:30.244)
I found one in the southern hemisphere where I didn’t have to wait.
Matthew C Johnson (16:49.832)
that was way better than the climate itself.
Jason Elkins (16:54.998)
I want to get into that because you go up the mountain, you were camping with the guides and the porters and all that stuff. You really had an opportunity to see a unique, you had a, sounds like a very unique experience, the kind of experience I like to have. And in your own words, how did that impact your life and your decisions from that moment?
Matthew C Johnson (17:18.786)
It, one, it taught me that solo international travel was not nearly as scary as I thought it was going to be.
Jason Elkins (17:21.154)
me like solo in
Matthew C Johnson (17:26.962)
was really engaged with the local community on the mountain. it opened my eyes also to the disparities in privilege and wealth in international travel. So a group that I was on a similar schedule with for a few days had 11 white Westerners. They had 84 locals working for them.
Jason Elkins (17:39.502)
I was on a similar schedule with her.
Matthew C Johnson (17:55.002)
And these locals would be carrying hard folding tables on their heads up the mountain ahead of these foreign tourists. And the foreign tourists would have a little child’s school backpack on talking about how their big mountain climbers, you know, as 84 Africans ran up the trail so that there’d be a fresh fruit spread waiting for them at 10 a.m. for morning tea.
Jason Elkins (17:56.07)
And these locals would be carrying hard folding cables on their heads up the mountain ahead of these foreign tourists. And the foreign tourists would have a little child’s school backpack on their heads.
as 84 African ran out the trail. it’s be a fresh spread waiting for them at 10 a.m. And my thought is, I understand there’s a market for that, but that’s not.
Matthew C Johnson (18:20.818)
And my thought was, I understand there’s a market for that, but that’s not what I’m here for. I wanted to see the mountain. I wanted to see this little tiny piece of Africa. luckily for me, all the workers on the mountain thought I was kind of a two-headed mule and got really curious. By the time I got to my, normally it be high camp for people, was my second highest camp below the summit.
Jason Elkins (18:32.773)
and what they for me, all the workers on the mountain thought I was kind of a two-headed mule and got really curious. By time I got to my, normally it would be high camp for people, my second highest camp for the summer, I was invited into a tent with all the senior guides there, or maybe six or seven companies represented in the training room that been in these eight years of parameters, and so a white person, a very blind man.
Matthew C Johnson (18:47.938)
I was invited into a tent with all the senior guides or maybe six or seven companies represented and between them it had been at least eight years apparently since a white person had carried their own bag to the top. Which for me was shocking coming from like a backpacking Midwestern where that’s just what you do on a week off.
Jason Elkins (19:00.916)
wow. For me it’s shocking coming from like a backpack in the Midwestern. Kind of, would it feel really weird for you to let somebody else carry your stuff? I mean that just seems like that would be… No? Okay.
Matthew C Johnson (19:14.642)
No, I wouldn’t feel weird. It’s just for me, I wanted to know if I can do it. So, the trip I have planned to the caucuses in September, you know, we’re actually using horses from the local Karachay community because they’re trying to give employment to the local people there. And, you know, I previously have done twice or traverse of that peak where I carried my own hundred liter bag over the summit. I know I can do it.
Jason Elkins (19:20.696)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (19:28.366)
versus from the local parents.
in a different corner to the local people. So, I’ve done twice the traverse of that deep right-cair man.
Matthew C Johnson (19:43.718)
But this time we’re going to bring camera gear and a little more fun stuff and we’re going to give some jobs to the local community in the process. So I’m fine with that.
Jason Elkins (19:45.486)
this time
Actually, that’s good point I’m happy brought up is giving the jobs to the local community because that’s a big part of what your organization’s all about. And I’m going to go back to when you said there was a group of 11. I’ve spent too much time in South America. I want to say the word gringos. But 11 tourists. And I think you said 80.
Matthew C Johnson (20:13.366)
Right.
Matthew C Johnson (20:17.266)
Yes, the African version of a gringo is Mizungu.
Jason Elkins (20:21.646)
Okay. And you mentioned that.
Matthew C Johnson (20:22.866)
MZUNGU, means traveler, but it’s kind of also hockey.
Jason Elkins (20:27.854)
Yeah, yeah. And I heard you say 84 Africans running up the mountain before them to make sure they had a nice food spread. So there’s two ways to look at that. One is, is this really right? This does this seems a little bit privileged or whatever. But then there’s also the flip side is those are 84 Africans that are probably, I don’t know, presumably happy to have the work. So how do you how do you reconcile that with?
Matthew C Johnson (20:33.297)
Yep.
Matthew C Johnson (20:52.132)
Bye.
Jason Elkins (20:57.26)
you know, encouraging people to go and not be so dependent on other people, but at the same time, you know, support local communities. You’ve thought about this a lot more than I have. So yeah. I would say one higher than directly. Okay.
Matthew C Johnson (21:06.699)
I have, I would say one, hire them directly rather than having the bulk of the money go to the middle man.
Jason Elkins (21:16.462)
Mm-hmm
Matthew C Johnson (21:17.742)
and to include them in the process of the climb as a team member so they feel respected and part of the climbing community. On Kilimanjaro, it’s still very, very segregated. For each of the preset campsites on the different routes, the overwhelmingly white tourists have a nice campsite. And for each location, the overwhelmingly Black workers set up their tents
Jason Elkins (21:43.598)
the overwhelmingly black workers set up their camps nearly as far away as is practical, frequently out of sight lower down. And then they only come to the white people’s camp to do a minstrel style song and dance with people. It was very embarrassing. Okay. Yeah. Let me ask you this. Were they highly encouraged by their bosses to move their
Matthew C Johnson (21:46.436)
literally as far away as is practical, frequently out of sight, lower down in the mountains. And then they only come to the white people’s camp to do a minstrel show song and dance routine in the evening, which for me was very embarrassing.
Jason Elkins (22:11.33)
to go camp out of sight, out of mind type of thing, or because I’m curious, because I remember when I was guiding, sometimes I really wanted to get away from my clients. I didn’t admit that because some of my clients are probably listening to this right now, past clients. But sometimes it’s like, you know what? I’d rather be out of sight, out of mind, because then I can kind of have my own peace and quiet. But I’m guessing that’s not really what you experienced.
Matthew C Johnson (22:36.306)
It did not have that feel at all. It was, you know, there’s, this is where the people with money sleep and the workers don’t intrude.
Jason Elkins (22:39.896)
was, you there’s…
Jason Elkins (22:49.146)
Okay.
Matthew C Johnson (22:50.842)
And I got that feel from them too. The first few days, they were curious, but they kept their distance from me. It was only by day three or four where they recognized that I had been respectful enough to learn some Swahili before I traveled. And that I wanted to do my work and I sit down and eat all of my meals with them and spend all of my time with them on the trail rather than walking with other foreign tourists that
They eventually opened up and felt comfortable. And by the end, it turned into a really wonderful experience because all these other workers from companies that I didn’t hire kept vying for my attention. Like, Hey, we don’t normally show the clients this thing. keep this to ourselves, but come check this out. They each wanted to find out, see who had the coolest thing they could show me. And, I forget the translation there. They wanted to call me in Slaily.
Jason Elkins (23:19.86)
I it.
Matthew C Johnson (23:49.33)
the Lion of the Mountain and I insisted they change it to Mule or Donkey because I was strong and stubborn but not very bright apparently and I absolutely love that.
Jason Elkins (23:49.934)
the lion of the mountain and I insisted they change it to a mule or donkey. Because I was strong and stubborn but not very brave. I absolutely love that. What you’re describing to me is like a really cool experience. And I’m wondering, because I’ve I’ve been I’ve spent some time in Africa, spent some time in a lot of places. And
I really, really like to get close to the locals. I would love to like, and I’ve done it before I’ve gone hang out with the guides and well, the other guests are, you know, sitting down at the dinner table, eating really great. And in my opinion, I’m eating really great with the guides because it’s more interesting the conversations and just being part of that. And I’m wondering if I, if I were to ask you what percentage of the climbers, this is just your guess. I know you don’t know the numbers.
or maybe do, what percentage of the climbers do you think would really prefer to have an experience more connected to the guides? I’m not asking this question very well. I think you know where I’m going with it. But here’s what I imagine, is I imagine the client from North America that’s like, man, I really want to hang out with the guides. I want to get to know them, da da da da da. But everybody else, it’s like, I got to follow the plan because the plan is that
Matthew C Johnson (25:02.162)
Yeah, I think so.
Jason Elkins (25:18.51)
When we get to camp, the guides or the staff is going to take a curves and then they’re going to go away. And I wish they’d stick around, but that’s not the plan. And I don’t want to disrupt the plan, but I’d really like to spend time. So I don’t know. So what you take on, do you think a lot of climbers would like to have more interaction? Or is that a tough sell?
Matthew C Johnson (25:37.862)
I think I’m…
maybe 10 or 20 % of the people that I climbed next to were arguing about the best season for Mallorca. So it wasn’t kind of the immersive travel group. It was, but there’s so many people who go to Kili or like to the south road on Elgars because it’s non-technical and it’s famous in a certain area.
Jason Elkins (25:52.846)
So it wasn’t kind of the immersive travel. But there are so many people who go to Gili or look at the sun.
Matthew C Johnson (26:10.219)
I think the majority of people are looking to check a box for social media.
Jason Elkins (26:11.36)
Okay
Matthew C Johnson (26:16.05)
The people who really are looking for that immersive travel are either kind of shoestring, know, dirtbag climber backpackers who do it just by nature. You know, they’re hitchhiking across seven different countries and stuff here in Africa. Or it would be, you know, your ultra high end tourists that’s looking for a real immersive ecotourism option. That’s going to be.
five figures a week.
Jason Elkins (26:47.114)
Right. Because it sounds like, and you’ve thought this out, it as I’m listening to you and thinking about this, if you said, OK, we’re going to offer a trip up Gilly and the guides and the porters are all going to sleep in the nicer accommodations and the nicer camp, and they’re going to just hang out with this and we’re all going to eat the same food and just have a great time. I suspect there’s an expense involved as a tour operator that does.
Killy Trex would probably say, yeah, well then the cost is going to be twice as much if we’re treating the guides like clients and nobody’s going to pay for that. What do you think? I full price. I paid full price. Okay. But I did it myself even though I paid the full deal. I paid for the orders, I paid for the food, but I just told them not to give it to me once I got there. And you slept with them in their camp.
Matthew C Johnson (27:27.344)
I paid full price. I paid full freight.
But I did it myself, even though I paid the full deal. I paid for the porters, I paid for the food, but I just told them not to give it to me once I got there.
Jason Elkins (27:44.3)
So presumably if you’d wanted to, could have slept. What I hear you saying is if you’d wanted to go sleep next to the other tourists, I’m just throwing that other climbers. You could have went over and slept there at the same level of accommodations that they had. Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. All right. I love it, man. I get it completely. It’s.
Matthew C Johnson (27:57.616)
I had my own tent, my own sleeping bag. I had everything. I could have camped anywhere I wanted.
I think they were shocked when I put my tent down in the workers camp the first night.
Jason Elkins (28:13.236)
That’s very cool. So how do we get more people to do it the way you did it? Or what’s the goal? Because it sounds like that’s what’s the goal of the foundation.
Matthew C Johnson (28:23.826)
So what we’re doing is, okay, so it’s gonna be more of a niche market for like alpine climbers, international climbers, what we’re doing at least initially. So it’s a big mountain, high altitude, the sort of climbers who drop 30 grand climbing in the Himalaya.
Jason Elkins (28:28.334)
Thank
Matthew C Johnson (28:44.37)
That’s just simply an easier lift for me. When you’re going to communities that for households make, you know, two or $3,000 a year, mass tourism isn’t going to work for them. We don’t want five or 10,000 tourists a year in these villages. But, you know, 20 a week, maybe during the climbing season of climbers who are used to the
Jason Elkins (28:56.27)
Tourism isn’t going to work for them either 10,000 tourists a year in these villages. Bye.
2020, a week maybe, during the climbing season, of climbers who are used to the big types of MSL 2020s.
Matthew C Johnson (29:13.99)
big expensive international alpine climbs, those climbers in modest numbers can change lives in these communities. They’re impactful enough individually to make a difference without overwhelming the smaller mountain communities.
Jason Elkins (29:18.99)
those climbers in modest numbers can change one of these things or is it impactful enough individually to make a difference with how overwhelming the smaller numbers are? So how does a not-for-profit organization make that happen?
Matthew C Johnson (29:43.474)
So we have built a team of people from quite a few countries now. We have people from Brazil, the US, the UK, France, Turkey, Jordan, and South Africa. And very connected climbers, parts of the core national climbing clubs. Some of them have their own companies. And they…
Jason Elkins (29:47.182)
team of people.
Jason Elkins (29:54.318)
experience.
Okay.
Jason Elkins (30:06.958)
and they actually talked to basically friends and finding groups and bringing their own native local club organizations together like this. The idea is to build it small and controlled organically where we get the right people in, ready out, as slow as we can so we can build out race management systems.
Matthew C Johnson (30:11.142)
can actually talk to basically friends and climbing groups to begin to bring in their own, you know, native local club organizations to travel like this. then just the idea is to build it small and controlled kind of organically where we get the right people in, where we have a slow enough growth that we can build up waste management systems, housing infrastructure, whether it’s home stays, bunk houses.
know, alpine shelters so that it grows in a sustainable way that the communities can handle. And that begins to give, you know, economic opportunity to them without alienating them by having a big board of foreigners all of a sudden show up, you know, one random June.
Jason Elkins (30:42.834)
So that it grows in a sustainable way that the community is able to handle and that it begins to grow.
Jason Elkins (30:58.558)
Okay, no, that’s cool. I remember I had a conversation with someone here on the show. I think it was Chris from VIP. Something they do. It’s a not-for-profit. And she was explaining some of the challenges as a not-for-profit organizing trips or promoting trips or marketing trips or so when I hear you talk about this, I’m trying to figure out like, okay,
How do you get people that are willing to pay to go do it without marketing it as an adventure, as a tour, as a trip? And what’s the long-term? mean, do you need to find companies, tour operators that are responsible and then involve them in it? I’m just trying to figure out what the plan is.
Matthew C Johnson (31:53.394)
So it’s kind of a difficult nonprofit model because every place we’re going to is its own animal. It’s a completely bespoke operation depending on the location. So in the North Caucasus on the west side of Elbrus, the Karachai community is there. They understand tourism. There’s a lot of tourism on the south and east side of the mountain that they’re aware of. None of that money makes it to the west side.
Jason Elkins (31:59.534)
is
Jason Elkins (32:07.198)
in the of caucuses in the West Side of the
Jason Elkins (32:20.014)
Okay
Matthew C Johnson (32:20.914)
It’s essentially Vail and Breckenridge on the southeast side of the mountain and rural Tennessee from 1910 on the west side of the mountain. So. And they have a really good guest culture as part of their tradition. So. In their old Karachai tradition, there are only two things that a man could do to get. Chaos out of the community. One of that’s an offended guest.
And the further a guest has traveled, the more honored they are to host you. I had read this and knew it intellectually before I went there, but when I showed up on a subsequent trip as my partner from London.
Jason Elkins (32:51.532)
And the further a guest has traveled, the more honored they are to host you. I had read this and knew it before I went there.
Matthew C Johnson (33:05.372)
By the end of day two, we were being told you’re supposed to come to the village on day three. Here up at like a little log cabin in the mountains. And what we didn’t know is they shut down the valley and put on a cultural festival in our honor because an American and a British gentleman had flown thousands of miles to see their land and learn about their culture. And they gave us the VIP treatment of
Jason Elkins (33:06.254)
at the end of day two.
Jason Elkins (33:13.223)
Sounds very cool.
Matthew C Johnson (33:35.177)
You couldn’t imagine.
Matthew C Johnson (33:39.41)
So it’s a great place for alpine clubs to bring people for serious rock climbing and alpine climbing. And it’s rugged and it’s beautiful. It’s absolutely like Switzerland 200 years ago before it was developed for climbing. But small-ish numbers in the hundreds or eventually maybe up to a little over a thousand in a climbing season would be all that would be needed for them.
Jason Elkins (33:39.692)
That might might my kind of thing. Yeah.
And it’s rugged and it’s beautiful. It’s absolutely like, whistling 200 years in the before it is.
Right. So how do you make that happen as the foundation? you promote these areas to Alpine clubs, tour operator? I’m just trying to figure out, do you raise money? mean, like listeners to this show right now.
What do you hope that they will take away from this? it, hey, we’re doing great stuff. Help us do it either by partnering with your time or money or go with us or what would you like to happen?
Matthew C Johnson (34:40.252)
We can give trip data to anybody who’s interested. We have contacts in the Valley. We do organize trips. going this September and we’re going to be filming a climbing documentary to showcase the area for climbing film festivals. between the Alpine Club in the UK, several people that we have involved that have their own tour companies, it’s really…
Jason Elkins (34:53.294)
this area.
Jason Elkins (34:59.63)
think the Alpine Club and the Mute’s, like, several people that we had.
Matthew C Johnson (35:07.25)
more of a niche adventure travel location. one of the, you can bring a family, one of the parents that do alpine climbing. There’s great technical rock climbing routes. can do horse tracking. It’s not a place for 30,000 people a year, like the South side of the mountain. It’s a place for, you know, a couple hundred people a week who are going to immerse themselves in the local community and provide some actual economic activities. This area is,
Jason Elkins (35:19.79)
It’s not a face for 30,000.
Okay.
Jason Elkins (35:35.002)
This area is
Matthew C Johnson (35:37.042)
It’s a Karachay ethnic group. settled these valleys in the late Bronze Age and spent 3000 years fighting off the Ottomans and the Persians, you know, and the Russians. And they were finally conquered by Moscow in the 1860s. Things have gone downhill a lot since then, so we’re trying to provide an economic lifeline to this ethnic group so that, you know, this three, three and a half thousand year old culture, that’s really at risk. Without economic health, that
Jason Elkins (35:43.218)
writing off the Ottomans. They were finally conquered by Moslem.
Jason Elkins (36:05.461)
Okay, is this and I may not be pronouncing right is it Ossieta or Ossetia? Is it in this region or close to that?
Matthew C Johnson (36:06.022)
Culture could be gone in five plus generations. So we’re using kind of high-end climbing to give them a reason to stay and not move off to Russian cities.
Matthew C Johnson (36:25.074)
So it’s not far. That’s a province in Georgia to the south that Russia has occupied. if you look where the Ukraine war is on the north side of the Black Sea, if you go right to the exact east end of the Black Sea and draw a line straight east, you go through land until you hit the Caspian Sea. There’s an east-west moment chain there. That’s the Caucasus.
Jason Elkins (36:46.274)
Right.
Matthew C Johnson (36:51.472)
The North side is Russia. have seven semi-autonomous republics. Now the Southwest is Georgia. The Southeast is Azerbaijan. And then Armenia is like…
Jason Elkins (37:04.29)
Right. And the area that we’re talking about is on the Russian side, right? Correct.
Matthew C Johnson (37:08.814)
So it’s just on the Russian side by five miles, just outside of the controlled technical border zone.
Jason Elkins (37:16.622)
Okay, all right. It’s a very interesting area. It might not sound like it, but I have done a little research and it’s an area that Georgia is on my list. It’s like the next spot, man. I am all about going to Georgia. And actually, this is a little unrelated, there was an Ossetian, I don’t even know how to pronounce it, but restaurant in Quito.
I was walking through Quito not too long ago and I saw this restaurant. I’m like, what the heck? And they had some of the Georgian food and all this stuff. And I was so excited. I went and got my friend. We got to go back. They’ve got Georgian food there. So anyway, it’s a area. about that. We got distracted. But so what I hear you saying is what we’d like is to give some exposure to the area.
so that some responsible operators or Alpine clubs can go in and help out the economy and experience something amazing. That’s right. Did I say that right? That’s kind what you would like to happen.
Matthew C Johnson (38:22.258)
Yeah, and it’s gonna grow. The idea is to grow it slowly over the next five plus years. So both myself and one of my partners, Mark Higdon from London, we’re both fellows at the Royal Geographical Society. So we’re hoping to use the Royal Geographical Society and some of the UK’s university climbing and travel groups to start to bring foreign students.
Jason Elkins (38:31.416)
both myself and one of my partners.
Jason Elkins (38:48.174)
start to bring foreign students into the area for changes, for the future projects that they want to
Matthew C Johnson (38:50.02)
into the area for exchanges to get to do projects with the local communities, bring people back to the UK or the US and kind of slowly grow the interconnections between the local communities and the broader international, mostly Western for us, know, adventure travelers and climbers. And so that it becomes a thing where, you know, instead of going to
Jason Elkins (38:59.854)
and slowly growing interconnect as we feel about the communities and the broader conflict between us and mostly wrestling fans.
Jason Elkins (39:13.902)
it becomes a thing where instead of going to a safari in savannah, this is just a little hot spot to explore. I’m going see this area that I’ve seen up until now. It’s very very nice. If you think of like, mountainous Germany, it really didn’t have a big difference between the 17’s, 1880’s and number one.
Matthew C Johnson (39:18.386)
on a safari in South Africa. Now this is just another option for the more adventurous traveler to go in, you know, see this area that has seen up until now, very, very few foreigners. It’s, if you think of like mountain climbing, it really didn’t become a thing until the 1870s, 1880s. And then, you know, World War I, you know, the Soviet Union formed its
We’re not getting a lot of foreign travelers into there. know, civilian collapses in 91, and then they have the war with Chechnya just to the east. So it’s a very unstable region. They have another war around once in 2000 or so. And so there weren’t any foreign travelers going into these semi-autonomous regions in the North Caucasus, you know, from World War I through 2010. So there’s just no exposure. No one’s been there. It’s from a
Jason Elkins (40:02.934)
Wow
Matthew C Johnson (40:16.74)
European, North American, South American perspective, it’s kind of no man’s land. I assume that one of the valleys that I went in, I was maybe the second or third American who’s ever set foot there, which is wild.
Jason Elkins (40:33.503)
Okay, so I’ve got a pretty clear picture of what you’d like to happen. But I suspect there’s something a few things. One thing you mentioned you would not want to happen is you don’t want the people that live there to have to move to Russian cities and just abandon their, their history and their their culture. But I suspect there’s other things that you’d see as a potential risk of happening that maybe keep you up at night as you’re trying to figure out how do we slowly develop this
Cause I keep hearing you say kind of slowly, sustainably, responsibly. So what’s that thing that keeps you up at night or what’s that thing you might wake up in the middle of the night with a nightmare? Like, my gosh, I can’t believe we, you know, this happened and we were part of it. And, on some level. like talking on a podcast, you know, like, my gosh, what if the wrong person hears this and goes in there and tries to do something that disrupts all of it.
Matthew C Johnson (41:30.236)
They, I had two worries initially, both I think we’ve found a way to operate with now. One was having the foreigners come in, know, would this change this ancient culture? And I had to get, get over the fact that I’m trying to decide for them what’s good for them. You know, it’s not my job to make that decision for them. If we’re going to empower them and give them the decision making authority.
Jason Elkins (41:41.592)
The concern was the business environment in the restaurant.
Matthew C Johnson (41:59.334)
That’s their choice. They can make their own choice, whatever that is. The other concern was the business environment in Russia where corruption is a real thing. Both organized crime and semi-organized through government offices where people like to take a cut of a business.
Jason Elkins (42:11.022)
corruption was a U.S. Both organized crime and civil organized…
Matthew C Johnson (42:22.982)
So what we had to figure out with friends, locals in the Valley was how can we organize a version of tourism that minimizes the option for outside bad actors to come and take a cut like a protection record? And a lot of that is simply using essentially like home, not online booking, but you could book online, but not pay online.
Jason Elkins (42:23.822)
So what we had to figure out with friends, locals, and the boundaries was how can we organize a version of tourism that minimizes the option for outside bad actors to kind of take a cut like a protector? And a lot of that is simply using essentially like, not only the different, but you can book online, but not go online,
Matthew C Johnson (42:51.024)
staying in a guest, a small guest house, paying cash, staying, you know, doing home stays, everything where you’re actually handing, you know, small amounts of cash directly to local individuals. Like when I went, I wanted some meat to make shashlik, which is their version of shish kebab. So I got an older farming couple to take me out into the communal grazing grounds. We raked, we mounted up their sheep. picked one out, picked out a lamb. Now it’s up.
Jason Elkins (42:53.486)
everything where you’re actually handing small amounts of cash directly to local individuals.
Matthew C Johnson (43:19.986)
Muslim community. we just had to take out a hunting knife and halal slaughter, you cut the neck right there in the field, cut it up, bring it back, age it. I didn’t go to a market. I didn’t pay with a credit card. I handed cash to an old man and his wife in a farm field. No one could take a cut of that.
Jason Elkins (43:23.791)
So here we are discussing this on a podcast do
Do you have concerns? And if you do, nobody’s going to hear this because you’re going to say yes, and then I’m going to edit it out. But my question is, do you have concerns about talking about stuff like Russian political issues or corruption and that type of thing? Do you think that the
Matthew C Johnson (44:05.296)
it’s all in the open. It’s not secret.
Jason Elkins (44:09.454)
They don’t care. like, yeah, Matthew, whatever. you’re a smart guy. You figured us out. Ha ha. We’re not going to change. We don’t care. We’re not going to come after you. It’s just kind of the way it is.
Matthew C Johnson (44:11.59)
No, it’s…
Matthew C Johnson (44:19.452)
Well, they came after me. I’ve been interrogated several times over there. My longest interrogation was seven hours.
Jason Elkins (44:30.646)
Okay, so next time they interrogate you and they go to Google and type in, you know, Matthew Johnson and this podcast episode comes up. Are you concerned about that?
Matthew C Johnson (44:39.794)
No, it’s performative. They’re upset. It’s all just checking a box in case someone in Moscow, you know, did you, did you ask the question? I mean, I won’t say who did what when I was there, but one of the, one of the individuals who was involved in the interrogation ended up buying my friends and I drinks after hours. And another person from the Russian court process, who, again, I won’t say.
Jason Elkins (44:43.394)
OK.
Jason Elkins (44:46.638)
Alright.
Matthew C Johnson (45:04.88)
what role they had, but they took us out to lunch at probably the nicest restaurant in town after we got out of our false try. So there’s no hard feelings, it’s all performative.
Jason Elkins (45:12.526)
All right.
All right. That’s fascinating. Yeah. All right. And it makes a great story in the bar after this. Oh yeah. Yeah. I’m, I’m sure. So we’ve, we’ve been talking about Russia, the Northern Caucasus. Um, I know there’s some other areas you have specific interest in as well. Should we touch on any of those?
Matthew C Johnson (45:18.182)
And it makes a great story in the bar afterwards.
Matthew C Johnson (45:37.702)
I would like to briefly talk about our new project in Bolivia. we originally were going to do the Russia as a one-off project. And then we put things on hold for the war and eventually decided, you know, we should maybe take this model and expand it. So the second place we found is the Aymara Ethnic Community in Northwest Bolivia. I ended up going there in July of last year, 24.
Jason Elkins (45:51.906)
So the second place we found
Matthew C Johnson (46:07.666)
with a researcher and our local partners on the ground to look at kind of the living conditions and the climbing opportunities in the area.
really an open door for us. The Bolivian Catholic University in La Paz has started a program in sustainable tourism. There is a regional church, Catholic Church in Peñas on the Altiplano that the priest is actually an Italian alpinist. He’s been there about 15 years and has been teaching the local kids rock climbing and kind of adventure travel. So they’re all open to this kind of concept when I showed up.
Jason Elkins (46:21.016)
So they’re all open to this kind of concept when I showed up.
Matthew C Johnson (46:49.49)
The Aymara people are very, at least the ones out in the villages, the rural villages are very suspicious of outsiders, not foreigners like any outsider. They had been mistreated since the Spanish conquered the area 450 years ago. And it was only the introductions through the church and the university that got us entree to some of the remote villages. And we had to work out.
Jason Elkins (46:51.826)
Yeah.
Matthew C Johnson (47:19.506)
that they were comfortable with that would be sustainable for their communities. And what we really ended up with was resuming open climbing that had been largely stopped. They had been disrespected enough and alienated by travelers that they kept people out for the better part of 25 years by force. So it’s a region that got very little climbing. And we came in and
Jason Elkins (47:21.882)
that would be sustainable for their communities. And what we really wanted to approach was that resuming opening up to the end of the crisis, they had been disrespectful to the most grounded travelers that they kept people out for the better part of 10 years. So there’s a reason that they’re doing it. And we came in, they…
Matthew C Johnson (47:49.264)
gave them the ability to make decisions what they wanted. The initial ask was just, please give us money to rebuild our school and rebuild the road. But our voters know we’re going to give you an ongoing funding stream that you can use to fix the school, fix the roads, feed the old people. And what ended up working was they’re going to create in each of the villages a new elected position to actually manage the tourism.
Jason Elkins (47:50.35)
give them the ability to make decisions like they wanted. The initial ask was just please give us money to rebuild our school and rebuild the room. But our approach is no, we’re going to give you an ongoing funding stream that you can use to the school, fix the roads, and what ended up working was we’re going to create municipal villages and new electric producers so we also manage the kids. We work to build
Matthew C Johnson (48:17.874)
we’re working to build trekking and climbing shelters. The operation will be overseen by the satellite campus of the university that has been set up on the church grounds in Peñas. But the operations will be done by the villagers. All the profits will go to village communal coffers that will be used for the school and the roads and whatever other needs they happen to have. And now, because they are actually
Jason Elkins (48:20.27)
checking and finding sectors. That will be the operation of the overseeing by this satellite campus of the university that has been set up on the church grounds and things. But the operations will be done by the managers, all the profits will be paid to the trade office, the communities, the school.
Jason Elkins (48:45.098)
Because they are actually running the tourism on their own and they feel very happy to bring people in as partners in the tourism industry rather than being a garden business. You know, get that. That makes a lot of sense. You know, I had a conversation with someone in the Amazon in Colombia not too long ago that
Matthew C Johnson (48:46.48)
running the tourism on their own land, they feel very happy to bring people in as equal partners in the tourism industry rather than being ignored and pushed aside. And then for that reason, try to keep people out.
Jason Elkins (49:12.168)
I guess was kind of obvious to me, but it was really interesting to have that conversation with them there because they’re explaining that as they shift more and more towards tourism, they have a tendency to kind of leave some of their own old practices behind or their, know, instead of farming, maybe it’s like, hey, instead of farming, let’s do Amazon tours, or instead of, you know, running a boat up and down the river transporting
products from Leticia to Iquitos or whatever, maybe I’ll do birding tours. So they shift so much into the tourism that then when something happens like COVID, you know, it’s like all of a sudden, wow, they’ve got all, you know, the tourists quit coming and they don’t have the systems in place that they had before. And it was really a struggle. So they learned from COVID that we need to not have so much dependence, like figure out how do we
benefit from the tourism without being overly dependent on it. And I suspect this is something you’ve given a lot of thought to with the organization. I’m just curious, do you have any thoughts or anything on that? Because I think it’s an interesting topic.
Matthew C Johnson (50:27.858)
It is. I would say for both of our first two initial locations, I think it’s less of a challenge because tourism isn’t such a foreign concept in these locations. It’s not that stark of a change. They’ve seen the tourism in communities in the region. They’ve seen the travelers. They’ve seen what they don’t like. But they’ve also seen things that they’re interested in.
Jason Elkins (50:40.506)
It’s never gonna be that okay
Matthew C Johnson (50:57.35)
We’re not starting from scratch like, here’s this thing called tourism. It’s like, here’s a thing you’re fully aware of. How do we do it in a way that works for your community? And again, in the end, you know, choosing not to kind of take a paternalistic approach and say like, maybe you should keep your own culture, keep you pristine and we can come and look at you from a distance and take pictures. Look, look at this ancient culture that
Jason Elkins (51:01.838)
Yeah.
Matthew C Johnson (51:26.256)
hasn’t changed and maybe they want to change in some ways. It’s their community, they get to make the decision.
Jason Elkins (51:33.98)
Well, that was what I was thinking when this conversation came up. It’s like, OK, it’s great to visual to conceptualize that a problem was created. But for for somebody from outside the community to come in and say, well, you know what? We’re going to limit tourism for you so that you don’t get too dependent on it. That’s kind of a screwed up situation, too. You know, like you said, the paternal thing is like we say, well,
We’re going to limit the number of people that can come into your community so that you don’t have a problem down the road. But we’re the ones making that decision on your behalf. And that’s that’s problematic, right? I think that’s really what you’re saying. So my choice is to bring groups in gradually. Hopefully, make it easier for communities. Right.
Matthew C Johnson (52:11.026)
I guess we get to make our own choices too. So, you know, my choice is to bring groups in gradually. Hopefully to make it easier for communities to adjust. You know, that’s just myself and my friends and my connections. If the community wants to advertise and get an Instagram account and a Facebook group and do what they want, that’s, know, I might just say no, you know, that’s
Jason Elkins (52:29.428)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I can imagine too is
Matthew C Johnson (52:40.41)
I just know I’m going to try to, with the part that I do, I’m going to try to do gently, gradually, so that I’m not creating a problem that I can foresee from day one.
Jason Elkins (52:57.986)
you know, as a, as a leader in the tourism industry, if you, you know, go in there and say, well, we, we want to have, you know, filet mignon and lobster in the jungle and, and try and change their own way of doing things. They’re going to quit growing the Manioc. They’re going to quit growing the corn. They’re going to try and figure out how do we ship the stuff in? then, and then it’s like, you’re going in and trying to bring what you left back home with you.
as a tourist, as opposed to just going in and experiencing what they’re already doing anyway. I mean, you know.
Matthew C Johnson (53:31.57)
And that’s the part I didn’t bring up so far. What I was working out with the priest and panacea in Bolivia was where do we go next year and the year after that and the year after that. And the goal that we worked on between myself, my group, the villagers, the university, the church, the regional tourism director for the Bolivian government was to try to kind of broaden
Jason Elkins (53:36.11)
was working with the priest in Canyons, Olivia, where do we go next year in the year?
Jason Elkins (53:58.59)
to kind of broaden the tourism, not like a hyper focus on any one thing, but a real, think about like a wide style of tourism where maybe you go climbing, you spend a few days in the village, you out and you time on the river, out and you all they do.
Matthew C Johnson (54:02.064)
the tourism options, not like a hyper-focus on any one thing, a real, think of it like a wide, shallow tourism field where maybe you go climbing, maybe you spend a few days in a village learning to traditional dishes with the local grandma. If you grew up in, if you spent time in Montana or wherever, you can go out and learn how they do, they are, I’m sorry, Yamas, I got corrected, not Lamas, Yamas.
and try to find a way to get a larger percentage of the community engaged in the tourism process. So it’s not just the 20 something young men who are getting jobs and everybody else is kind of getting sideline.
Jason Elkins (54:38.618)
Yeah, that’s an interesting thing as well. Kultry, when you have an area where you’ve got
Tourism comes in, you’ve got, yeah, I mean, you mentioned the 20 young man and it reminded me of when I lived in Belize and we had other people working around the tourism, but those guys were, you know, the fishing guides. were fly fishing guides in Belize and man, they were just like the gold chains and the cool baseball caps and the Nike shoes. And they were the…
Matthew C Johnson (55:22.866)
They were following.
Jason Elkins (55:23.362)
were the thing. They were the thing. They were ballin’, as my son would say. Yeah, they were, they were ballin’. And it was, but it also created some, some challenges, you know, some, some, some real issues. And if you can kind of help the community get involved where, where you don’t just have the, you know, the, the 20 young men that are, but I guess it’s better than doing some of the other things they could be doing, because there’s other communities where you’ve got the 20 young men that are doing other, I don’t know.
Matthew C Johnson (55:52.85)
That’s also some of the riskiest, your riskiest demographic in almost any community.
Jason Elkins (55:53.71)
Off on a tent. Yeah. And, and I can tell you these guys, I love them to death, but they were fiercely protective of their status. It was a, they were at the top of the status ladder and they were fiercely protective and competitive with each other. And, um, but that, again, I don’t know, I don’t know what the answer is there. It’s just an observation, I guess.
I’m sure you’ve seen it as well. Did you see that with the guides in Africa on your first trip? Did you see the pecking order?
Matthew C Johnson (56:30.938)
there was a deaf, yeah, there was a deaf and a pecking art of senior guides were, you know, minor celebrities on the mountain and, you know, porters and just the kind of the grunt workers. They didn’t even, honestly, they were uncomfortable making conversation with me for the first several days because I think they thought they’d get in trouble.
Jason Elkins (56:34.946)
definite technical issue. Senior guide.
Jason Elkins (56:41.174)
Yeah.
They didn’t even, honestly, they were uncomfortable making conversation with me for the first several days because I think they thought they’d get in trouble. Well, yeah. that’s, and that’s probably, I mean, I don’t know, over analyzing this, but I guess if you’re the top guide, you’re the big deal on the mountain. You kind of want all the porters and all the other guides off in a camp out of sight, out of mind. Cause
they’re interacting with your clients or you know, maybe interfering with your ability to get tips or I don’t know. Do you think that that might be kind of something that they’re creating themselves? Yeah, would imagine.
Matthew C Johnson (57:25.906)
Kilimanjaro is such an established culture, that would be very hard to change. There’s a reason I didn’t try to go into an established place and try to tell people that what they’re doing is wrong.
Jason Elkins (57:41.418)
established place and try to tell people that what they’re doing. Yeah. Nothing, nothing or close to nothing exists. we can work in partnership with the community to say, is going to be good for the local culture, for the local experience. let’s build that thing from day one. Love it.
Matthew C Johnson (57:45.586)
I’m choosing places that essentially nothing or close to nothing exists. And we can work in partnership with the communities and say, is going to be good for the local culture, for the local experience? And let’s build that thing from day one. Let’s work on community involvement from day one. Let’s make sure we have proper waste management from day one. Since we’re kind of
Jason Elkins (58:12.622)
You know, since we’re kind of getting into system issues like those things, we can see what’s been done previously and try to avoid at least some of the worst practices before they’re getting good. Yeah. Yup. There’s one, it’s a little bit off, off of this track, but there’s something I saw recently about some climbers that were using, you know, different chemicals to help them with the
Matthew C Johnson (58:13.03)
creating a new system in each of these locations, we can see what’s been done previously and try to avoid at least some of the worst practices before they get ingrained.
Jason Elkins (58:40.618)
Acclamation and I don’t remember all the details, but it was on Everest. is that something that, yeah, I mean, is that something you want to discuss?
Matthew C Johnson (58:45.617)
that too.
Matthew C Johnson (58:51.954)
So for people doing that, I don’t think weekend worries would try anything that unusual. Most of your classic mountain tourism is going to be people who’ve climbed in groups, but have followed the lead of a guide. Or you’ll have someone who’s very experienced, doesn’t use a guide, knows what they’re doing, and is
Jason Elkins (59:15.916)
or you’ll have someone who’s very experienced, doesn’t use a drive, and knows what they’re doing, and there’s anything they’re going to try like that, they’re trying from a very important place. So, yeah, I don’t see, other than a very small minority of wealthy people who, sort of people who go through into every space, can’t miss it of trekking.
Matthew C Johnson (59:21.986)
anything they’re going to try like that, they’re trying from a very informed base. So yeah, I don’t see, other than a very small minority of wealthy people who, sort of people who will helicopter into every space canvass of tracking, they might pay or cajole or bribe someone to give them
Jason Elkins (59:45.432)
They might pay or cajole or bribe someone to give them access to something like that. think there’s union guys in this case. Yeah, I think so, yeah.
Matthew C Johnson (59:49.09)
access to something like that. I think it was xenon gas in this case. That could be wrong. But it’s a one.
Jason Elkins (59:57.706)
But you don’t see it as a, the climbing world is going to be overrun with all these people now because it’s getting so easy to do it that, you know, you’re going to have four times as many people on the top of Everest next year. You’re not.
Matthew C Johnson (01:00:09.426)
The research is really mixed on it. the bulk of the research says it doesn’t help much. So I think the people who used it, I think the people who used it were already very good climbers. They, I believe, used oxygen deprivation tents. It was supposed to be altitude simulators, but it’s not actually reducing air pressure. It’s just reducing the concentration of oxygen. So it’s not really the same thing for climatization.
Jason Elkins (01:00:16.652)
Yeah, that’s, I had read that as well. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:00:23.788)
Yeah, I heard that.
Matthew C Johnson (01:00:37.202)
but it’s supposed to help if you do it at least 16 hours a day or more. Anything less than the effects must be very minimal. Yeah, it’s more like you’re sleeping in a tent, you’re working in a home office with it. If you’re only doing it eight hours a day, the results are right for on average. I mean, people, the more dangerous thing is people taking like dexamethasone. So when you travel the altitude,
Jason Elkins (01:00:38.35)
Mm That sounds miserable. Sitting in a tent, not being able to breathe very well.
Jason Elkins (01:01:05.696)
Okay.
Matthew C Johnson (01:01:07.248)
You need certain medications. Two of the big killers for climbers are pulmonary edema and cerebral edema. Pulmonary edema is where your body interprets the reduced air pressure as an injury to the lung tissue and increases blood flow and pressure. And you end up leaking fluids through your lungs and you drown on your own fluids. Horrible way to die. You have to carry a specific medication for that that allows you to self evacuate. The other big one is where
Jason Elkins (01:01:34.222)
The other big one is where cerebral edema, where your brain swells, like pain in a hard case, your skull, there’s nowhere for it to go, then the rapid becomes very, you seem like you’re in pain, then you collapse and you die. So the way we take to reduce the effects of that for hopefully enough time to self evacuate through a lower altitude is dexamethasone. Rumors, I carry it on everyone.
Matthew C Johnson (01:01:34.81)
Cerebral edema where your brain swells, but it’s contained in a hard case your skull there’s nowhere for it to go You you rapidly become very You thought you seemed like you’re drunk and you you know collapse and you die so the drug you take to reduce the effects of that for Hopefully enough time to self evacuate to a lower altitude is dexamethasone So climbers I carry it on everyone I carry drugs for both of those on every single one of
Jason Elkins (01:02:03.126)
I carry drugs for both of those every single one. They don’t take them as a performance aid. You can take Dexamethasone as a performance aid before you get pulmonary edema to kind of give you a boost on tone. Some climbers do that. It’s a drug, it’s a steroid, it carries a risk. And then if you do get cerebral edema, you don’t have a backup because you’re already caught. yeah. It’s a performance enhancer that significantly
Matthew C Johnson (01:02:05.81)
They don’t take them as a performance aid. You can take dexamethasone as a performance aid before you get pulmonary edema to kind of give you a boost on the mountain. Some climbers do that. It’s a drug, it’s a steroid, it carries a risk. And then if you do get cerebral edema, you don’t have a backup because you’re already on it. So it’s a performance enhancer that significantly increases your risk if you use it inappropriately.
Jason Elkins (01:02:33.39)
increases your risk if you use it in a program. Well, because it could, it could, I’m just thinking out loud here, it could create a situation where you’re performing better than you should be, almost. So you get into that, dangerous place a lot quicker. And then when you’ve got a problem, you don’t have, you know, you don’t have any way to treat it. It reminds me of when I was young, my, my dad, when I was growing up, he’d always teach me
Matthew C Johnson (01:02:35.772)
So there’s always options like.
Jason Elkins (01:03:02.008)
Try not to use the four wheel drive on your vehicle unless you really need to. You know, wait until you get to that.
Matthew C Johnson (01:03:06.033)
Exactly.
I grew up with the same advice. Four-wheel drives for getting out of the mud, not into the mud.
Jason Elkins (01:03:15.534)
getting out of the mud. Yeah, because if you use it to get into the mud, then you’re screwed. chances, you’re just not going to be able to get out, you know, without a lot of a lot of extra effort and tools. But so anyway, fascinating, fascinating conversation. I feel like you and I could just keep going on and on. I’ve got so many questions. Maybe we need to come back and do this again. I want to ask one more question before I open it up to anything I forgot. But I think I really.
want to make sure we’re clear on anybody that’s listening to this regardless, what would you like them to do if they’re listening to this and man, this guy’s got some cool ideas of cool places. He talked about Bolivia, talked about the caucuses. I’d like to go to one of those places or I’ve got a climbing club or something that they want to connect with you. Your website links going to be in the show notes. But what kind of people are you hoping will reach out to you?
Maybe I just said it, I don’t know.
Matthew C Johnson (01:04:14.13)
So no, that’s part of it is the climbers and travelers. But honestly, we have kind of opportunities for people at different levels. Like if you just want to get involved with a project like this, because we’re growing, we have roles, like we’re going to need a social media person within the next year. We’re eventually going to need someone to help manage donor relations. So we have volunteer roles. have
Jason Elkins (01:04:38.478)
and it’s donor-aligned schools. We have volunteer roles, have places where we can go if you’re interested in doing this type of thing but you’re not an alpinist. You don’t have to be an alpinist, that’s just my personal choice in my body. You can go to these areas, can do trekking, can do horse camping, there’s fishing, beautiful photography. It’s an immersive place where there’s…
Matthew C Johnson (01:04:42.162)
places where we can go if you’re interested in doing this type of thing, but you’re not an alpinist, you don’t have to be an alpinist. That’s just my personal approach and my body’s which got our attention. But you can go to these areas, you can do trekking, can do horse camping, there’s fishing, beautiful photography. It’s an immersive place where there’s options, whatever, as long as you’re into
Jason Elkins (01:05:07.31)
options, whatever you, as long as you’re into the outdoor, you’re not looking for a place where the spot group is included. Okay. So what I hear you saying is the person.
Matthew C Johnson (01:05:08.848)
the outdoors and you’re not looking for a place where the spa treatment comes to your room, no, there’s options, right? And the communities are happy to get work on whatever those are.
Jason Elkins (01:05:27.05)
And it’s, so it’s, the person that’s just pretty adventurous and wants to really get off the beaten path and do something pretty cool. sounds like you’re, you’re at least willing to engage in some sort of conversation. Maybe communities, maybe somebody is going to listen to this. Probably, probably not in a really remote mountainous community that hasn’t seen any Americans for a while. They’re probably not listening. But yeah, very cool. So.
Matthew C Johnson (01:05:32.036)
It is.
Matthew C Johnson (01:05:52.53)
Well, so like we’re not, no, it’s a nonprofit. We’re not trying to make money. We’re trying to just sustain our operations, but I am very happy if someone has tour companies, you know, and they’re looking to get engaged in these areas and, you know, I think they operate responsibly. I’m more than happy to make the connections and help them bring their businesses into these areas. Like we want to bring people in. You know, my group just happens to have the on the ground and all.
Jason Elkins (01:06:02.294)
am very happy if someone has tour companies and they’re looking to get the goods in these areas and they think they operate responsibly. I’m more than happy to make the connections and help them bring their business into these areas. We want to bring people in. My group just happens to have the on the ground knowledge.
Matthew C Johnson (01:06:22.518)
in the local connections. I would be very pleased to be the bridge between some tour operators and some of these more adventurous locations. So if you’ve got a company or your individual, a club, whatever, know, reach out to me. My email is on the website.
Jason Elkins (01:06:25.902)
I’d be very pleased to meet the grid between some peer operators and some of these more adventurous locations. So if you’ve got a company or you’re individual or a club, know, reach out to me and email me.
Matthew C Johnson (01:06:41.616)
Yeah, I’m really happy just to, I find it’s a passion project for me. So if anybody is interested in this sort of thing, you know, just hit me up. was this a week ago, I was at the outside summit in Denver, which is like outdoor retailer was, but now outside magazine took over a year ago for part of it and made a ton of great connections there and trying to advertise this type of work. You know, I’m now
Jason Elkins (01:06:43.653)
I’m really happy just to… I find it’s a passion project for me. I can see the look on your face. interested in this sort of thing. a week ago I was at the…
Jason Elkins (01:07:05.016)
made a ton of great connections there and created advertisers.
Matthew C Johnson (01:07:09.732)
acquaintances with the people at the Global Climbing Initiative. Amazing organization. Globalclimbing.org, I believe is their website. setting up, like they’re helping to fund and equip local climbing clubs around the world. They go on YouTube. They just had a film Climb Malawi about the project they started in Malawi last year. Mario Stanley made the film. He’s now going to be working with me. Super excited about that.
Jason Elkins (01:07:20.728)
Very cool,
Matthew C Johnson (01:07:35.814)
But there are organizations who do this kind of regenerative tours, I think they call it now. And I am super happy to connect people in that space.
Jason Elkins (01:07:48.46)
Well, I appreciate that because I know we’ve got some tour operators listening that that would that are always looking for cool, interesting stuff. Sustainability is a is very popular with the people that I think listen to this show anyway. So encourage anybody that’s listening to go check out your website, get in touch with you. And thank you so much. Is there anything I forgot to ask you? You to make absolutely sure that we that we put out there before we wrap it up or did we do a good job?
Matthew C Johnson (01:08:16.754)
Pretty good, but I would say as our group is kind of growing, have people, we have guides from South America and the Middle East and South Africa. And we have a certain knowledge base because of that. But if any of your listeners are aware of a location where this sort of development would be appropriate, we’re always looking for new places. Like right now, I think our third project
Jason Elkins (01:08:20.27)
See you.
We have people, we have guys and so.
Jason Elkins (01:08:31.926)
have a certain knowledge base to cover that. But if any of your listeners are aware of a location where this sort of development should be appropriate, we’re always looking for new places. I think our third project will be in the Neku region of Northern Georgia. We’re both working on the government side. But we are definitely researching more projects to be able to add.
Matthew C Johnson (01:08:46.31)
probably in the Spaniard region of northern Georgia, close to Elbrus from the Georgian side. But we are definitely researching more projects for the years ahead. So I’m happy to both connect people to the places we know about and would be grateful for people to reach out and give us ideas to research for new locations.
Jason Elkins (01:08:59.662)
So I’m happy to both connect people to the places we know about and it would be great for people to reach out and give us ideas to research the related projects. Very cool. Very cool. Matthew, thank you so much. Really, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.
Matthew C Johnson (01:09:11.78)
I forgot one thing. I’m sorry. Before we go. In Bolivia, we have 200 volunteers lined up to do work. We do have to fund the building material through the church. anybody wants to get into a charity project where you’re working through the Catholic Church in Bolivia and or through us, we literally have 200 people lined up to do the construction. If we can just get the rocks to the right place.
Jason Elkins (01:09:18.958)
We have 200 volunteers willing to do it. We do have to fund the building material for the church. If anybody wants to get into a charity project, we’re working through the Catholic Church in Belinda, or a family through us. We literally have 200 people willing to do the construction if we get to the law. All right. Well, I’m happy we got that in. Thank you so much. Matthew.
A real pleasure, great conversation and I look forward to hopefully our paths will cross in person sometime soon. So thank you so much.
Matthew C Johnson (01:09:53.466)
I would enjoy that. Thank you, Jason.
Jason Elkins (01:09:55.79)
All right, have a great day. Thanks.
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