Guest Bio
Melissa Chiella is the Director of Operations and Creative Services, as well as a Senior Tour Guide at Bindlestiff Tours, an award-winning multi-day adventure travel company. Originally from New York, Melissa transitioned from a corporate legal career to the adventure travel industry after a transformative solo backpacking trip to Puerto Rico in 2010. Over the past decade, she has guided tours across more than 25 of America’s National Parks, including five years exclusively leading wilderness backpacking and packrafting expeditions in Alaska. Melissa is also a certified Wilderness First Responder, California Naturalist, and holds certifications in Swift Water Rescue and Avalanche Rescue.
Show Summary
In this episode, Melissa Chiella discusses her journey from the corporate legal world to becoming a prominent figure in adventure tourism. She shares insights into her experiences guiding in diverse environments, the challenges and rewards of leading backcountry expeditions, and her passion for sustainable and immersive travel. Melissa also reflects on her role in operations and creative services at Bindlestiff Tours, emphasizing the importance of crafting unique and meaningful travel experiences.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Career Transformation: Embracing change can lead to fulfilling and passion-driven careers.
- ✓ Adventure Tourism: Guiding in diverse and challenging environments enhances leadership and adaptability.
- ✓ Sustainable Travel: Promoting responsible tourism practices preserves natural landscapes and supports local communities.
- ✓ Creative Operations: Innovative planning and execution are vital for delivering exceptional travel experiences.
- ✓ Continuous Learning: Pursuing certifications and new skills enriches professional growth and service quality.
What You’ll Find on Bindlestiff Tours’ Platform
- ✓ Multi-Day Adventure Tours: Immersive trips across the Western USA, Canada, and Alaska, led by experienced guides.
- ✓ Custom and Private Tours: Tailored itineraries designed to meet specific interests and group dynamics.
- ✓ National Park Expeditions: Guided visits to iconic parks with opportunities for hiking, wildlife viewing, and photography.
- ✓ Small Group Experiences: Intimate group sizes ensure personalized attention and flexibility.
- ✓ Expert Guides: Knowledgeable professionals provide in-depth insights into destinations, enhancing the travel experience.
👉 Visit Bindlestiff Tours’ Official Website to explore their offerings and learn more about Melissa Chiella’s contributions to adventure travel.
Learn more about Bindlestiff Tours and connect with Melissa at:
https://www.bindlestifftours.com/
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler.
Here, we’re very fortunate today to be here with Melissa Chiella I got it. Okay, Melissa, so happy to have you here today. How are you? I am good. Good, good. And for those of our listeners that don’t know, you work with Bindelstiff Tours. That’s a name that many people I know will know, and if you might not, it might be new to them. So I want, just give us the kind of the quick recap of what is Bindelstiff? What are you guys most known for?
And then we’re gonna dig into a little bit more into you and how you got where you’re at. Sure, we are a company rapidly growing that does small group tours all over the United States, including Alaska and Canada. We started 12 years ago. The owners of the company were former guides, including me, which I started two years ago. And…
Jason Elkins (01:55.458)
started the company with just a couple of guides and has kind of grown it. And we have over 20 guides now. And we do national parks, forests, monuments, cities, geology, ecology, soft adventure travel all over the US, small group road trip based, camping, lodging, lots of different variations to what we do. You do any winter stuff or is this all kind of spring, summer and fall, or what does your season look like? We’re year round.
Um, so we’re based in Las Vegas and the meat of our season is from April one until November one, which was yesterday. So we’re just coming down really a successful season. Um, yeah. So I’d say about 85% of our business and our guide volume is within that seven month stretch.
And then we do have winter tours where just a few of our guides can take the brunt of the winter and they’re not as consistent. But we do a lot of private custom and we have a couple of public itineraries that we do. So yeah, we are year round. Very cool. And as you mentioned today, we’re speaking on November 2nd. So your season, your busy season kind of wrapped up I guess yesterday. Yeah. Right? Yeah.
And I’m not sure that, you know, if you don’t work in the tourism business, you might not realize what the typical life of someone that works in tourism is like. You know, I think people tend to think that if you work in tourism, you’re kind of on vacation all the time because they’re on vacation when they meet you. But the reality of it is sometimes it is in order to provide a good experience for your clients. It is, it is a bit of work.
So what does your season actually look like? You said April through October. What’s your typical day look like? How would you describe your life during that period? Mine specifically or the guys? Both, I think. Okay. I think both, cause I know you’re working well. Yeah, so I was a guy for 12 years. So I can definitely speak on behalf of them cause I know what it feels like and I’m managing the whole team and tours along with the great staff.
Jason Elkins (04:17.906)
from behind the scenes. What my day typically looks like is, I often compare it to being a surgeon. We are on call frequently. There is no set hours for this type of industry. Anything and everything is in real time. So we can get phone calls that something went wrong on a tour.
We’re driving vehicles all over. We’ve got departures, we’ve got arrivals, we’ve got sometimes information that’s a disconnect somewhere. So me and my team are constantly, you know, being operations from behind the scenes, but also fielding all these wonderful reviews that are coming through. We’ve got a sales department that’s booking tours in real time. We have a free sale. So we’re booking sometimes right up until 12 hours before.
Departures, we’ve got vans coming in, vans going out. We’ve got our whole team cleaning, getting oil changes, prepping for trips, studying geology, studying ecology. We’ve got a bunkhouse in our downstairs of our warehouse where guides live and sleep. It is a wild, wild experience from April till May. Yeah. The next question I was gonna ask you is, what would you say to somebody that’s listening to this, that’s thinking about…
or maybe they’re doing something a little bit more traditional and they’re thinking, man, I wish I could work in tourism. I wish I could do what Melissa’s doing or what these guys are doing. And I was going to ask you, what would you say to them that they might not be aware of, or what should they know before they go give it their notice, that type of thing? And what you just said was kind of the answer, I think, was that there’s a lot of stuff going on, probably a lot of opportunities to learn new things, but is there something that really
jumps to the forefront when I ask that question is, what would you say to somebody that’s thinking about getting into this type of tourism? Yeah, I would never discourage anyone from wanting to do it, but when I interview and when I tell people about what we do, I’m incredibly open and raw to my best ability because I tell my guides this all the time and anyone else that asks me, this job is for the 1%.
Jason Elkins (06:39.326)
It is the most in your face, mentally, physically, emotionally draining thing I’ve done in work. I know there’s many jobs like firemen and police and doctors that are on call and saving lives. And sometimes we have to save lives too, literally. Obviously that’s not our focus, but you never know what is thrown at you.
And I think the easiest way to describe it is…
you need to be comfortable being uncomfortable. And yeah, and working where you almost can’t see straight because you’re working 10, 12, 15 hour days. And if you’re on a 10 day trip and you’ve got a two day turnaround for the next trip and cleaning, prepping, doing paperwork, studying geology, studying ecology, going to two new national parks you’ve never been to, getting briefed by us, you’ve got a million things
lying at you at once, but it’s exciting, it’s fun, it’s a lifestyle that most people won’t ever be able to say that they did, especially coming from the United States because it’s so structured with little vacation time. So, I mean, it was the best experience of my life for sure. And watching everyone get out there and find their footing has been really cool and finding out who’s gonna really shine the season
and who needed a little more work and who just took it with stride has been really rewarding for all of us in operations. But the job is hard. This job is hard. You’ve got the actual task, but then on top of it, you have people that are on your tour that will have a lot of unsolicited opinions on how things should be done. And you’ll have the most amazing, grateful, wonderful, kind,
Jason Elkins (08:40.106)
souls on your trip too. So you have to be ready for it all and you’ll learn and you’ll flourish and sometimes you’ll you know just want to cry in a ball you have a it’s a roller coaster of emotions every day. Yeah I as I listened to you I realized how fortunate I am that you agreed to meet with me basically the day after your season and it wraps up because this is all really fresh.
You’ve been doing this for a long time. So it’s not like this is your first season and you’re like, oh my gosh, I can’t believe it was like that. You just know what it is. But at the same time, I can tell that it’s really, really fresh for you right now. So I appreciate that. I’m curious. And maybe you’re not even ready to have this conversation about this group. So just not the group of guides that you had working for you this season, but just in general. I guess the question is, what percentage
There’s a whole different way to ask this, but what percentage of your guides either come back or are invited to come back? That might be two different questions. There might be three or four different questions. Yeah, that’s a good question. And me and the owner already, because we watched throughout a whole season of what’s happening.
there’s a lot of things that are like, oh, okay, like that could be worked out. But then there’s also like, hmm, I don’t know if this job is for them. Or emotionally, a lot of people just are like, I don’t want to work this hard. It’s too hard on me. I’m away from home. And some people get into this and could never imagine doing anything else in life because you have off the whole winter and
You’re in national parks, you’re with people, you’re in the field, it’s really exciting. So I would say the attrition rate with us now because we guide our own trips, but we also white label for high-end brands. So we operate for 10 other brands as well. And I have a senior group of guides that are really dialed in with history and flora, fauna, geology, ecology.
Jason Elkins (10:59.682)
they can guide anything to a high professional level. So we’ve kind of got like a few different sets of guides right now. We’ve got our rookies that came in, then we’ve got like our two to three year guides, and then we’ve got like our senior guides that we send further away with harder branding and harder tours, harder clientele. It’s, I can just imagine there’s, you just did such a great job of like mentioning everything that it’s, I really appreciate you.
working through that. And one of the things that really caught my attention and kind of reminded me of when I was dealing with clients on a daily basis was, yes, people are on vacation. And I think most people listening to this can remember a time that they were on vacation with family, strangers, whatever, in places that maybe were a little uncomfortable, they hadn’t gone camping before or…
They haven’t spent a lot of time around their family members, and then they all get together for this tour. And if anybody that has a family knows that sometimes when you get together, it can be a little bit stressful. So when you talk about the guides being there with their clients, they’re with their clients during a time that, yes, it’s vacation, but at the same time, it can also be incredibly stressful. Traveling can be stressful.
We see the brochures, we see the websites, we think, oh my gosh, I’ve always wanted to go to Yellowstone, I’ve always wanted to go to the Grand Canyon, I’ve wanted to do these things. And then when you pick up and leave your house that you’ve slept in your own bed every day for the last three years, and then all of a sudden you’re on the road or you’re on a bus with a group of people you don’t know or you do know. Yeah, I think that can be a challenge. Do you have any, I don’t wanna put you on the spot because we weren’t gonna discuss this, but I’m curious, do you have any stories?
I was just like, wow, I can’t believe these people brought this with them on vacation or just anything that kind of comes to mind that obviously you won’t, I know you protect the names and protect the innocent, but anything come to mind or anything crazy this summer? Yeah, I mean, we’ve had a few and yeah, I’ll protect names and guide names and branding names. So some other hypothetical tour company.
Jason Elkins (13:18.286)
Yeah, some other companies, but you know, like sometimes people just have idiosyncrasies, I would say that I don’t think they’re totally fully aware of that really heightened all of our guides senses where we’re like, Whoa, this is a liability because maybe they don’t understand etiquette in certain national parks or
people think their knowledge translate because they’re a doctor or a lawyer, that means they’re an expert in a national park and they’re not. So kind of like funny things that we teach our guides on how to be assertive and how to be in charge and how to lead a group. But yeah, no, I mean, we’ve been, and I can speak for myself being on the road. I mean, I’ve been thrown some real doozies.
you know, you get alcohol involved sometimes and, um, who knows what’ll happen. So, um, luckily you mentioned national parks and I don’t want that sort of, but as you said that I started resonating cause I, I guided in some of the national parks and I was fishing guide in Yellowstone. I grew up in Wyoming. So every summer there was a story of somebody. And when you talk about etiquette and parks,
you know, somebody putting their kid on a buffalo to take a picture or, you know, and when you’re with the plans and no matter, I’m not knocking anybody. So anybody who’s listening to this, I love people, I love the groups. And sometimes it’s just so far out of your element that even when your guide says four times the water here is acidic and hot and, you know, you don’t want to fall in. And yet.
they’ll lay down and stick their hand in it over the side of the boardwalk or something in the park or the, not the elephants, but the Buffalo or bison and stuff. It can be funny. And sometimes when you’re leading the group, it’s like, Oh boy, pretend like, Nope, there was some other company. Yeah. And you’re representing a company and a brand and they, they know us, you know, we’re regulated. We’ve got a giant DOT sticker on the side of our van.
Jason Elkins (15:41.683)
So we do a really good job of training and telling them how to deliver this message of respectfully abiding by rules, our rules, the parks rules, driving laws. And we had a really good team this year, but it’s a learning experience. It’s a learning experience for the guides. It’s a learning experience for me as a manager.
how to handle different personalities and being a guide for as long as I was, I was like, oh yeah, I’m dialed in, I got this. And then you jump into the operations world and it’s like, okay, the guides sometimes are also work. Well, no, you’re absolutely, cause people are people, we’re all people and I, myself included.
I remember my very first guide trip that I guided someone. It was, you know, I got my license, I had my boat ready as a fly fishing guide in Montana on the Yellowstone River. And it just happened to show up. I was working in the shop and I showed up and the guide that was supposed to guide these people didn’t make it or whatever. And it’s Jason, you want to take him? And I’m like, oh my gosh. And it was stressful. I mean, anybody that’s listening, you can imagine if you float rivers.
Generally you take your vehicle up with the boat and you put the boat in the water and then you float down the river with your clients. And typically somebody moves your car, it’s a shuttle moves your car from wherever you put in to the takeout so that when you get to the takeout you can load your boat up and take your clients back to their hotel or whatever. And sure enough, I didn’t leave the keys in my vehicle so the driver could move my vehicle down. I was so nervous and so excited. I was just like,
the boat in the water, we got in the boat and started moving down the river, had a great day. But fortunately, I had people like you say operations, I had people looking out for me that when the person got there to move my car and there were no keys, three or four people got involved, they managed to get my wife to bring me. It was a long story and it was embarrassing, but I didn’t even know I did it. I got back, I got to the ramp, my car was there, I didn’t think anything of it, grabbed the keys.
Jason Elkins (18:00.19)
put the clients back to where they needed to go and then check my voicemail and I had 14 people also on my phone. I realized you had two sets of keys too. And you’re like. Yeah, and you know, so it just, it happens. Guides are human too. And it can be incredibly nerve wracking because you want, I guess the thing is, as a guide, we want so badly for people to have a good time. Like it’s like, we’re so want them to have a good time that sometimes we just forget.
things. And there’s a lot to remember. Yeah. So it’s coming from a good place. So even when the guides do funny things, it’s like, okay, well, you know, so do you. So, so we talked a little bit about them, I really, I’m gonna change the subject a little bit. It’s not a huge change. But you last time we spoke, you told me a little bit about your story. And most people that work in this business have some kind of they were doing something before that.
it’s just not quite what they ended up doing. So what were you doing before tourism and how did you get, what did that look like for you? So I grew up in New York and I was on track to be an attorney. I worked in a firm in Long Island and then I transferred and got a new job, moved to Brooklyn and worked at four firms in Brooklyn. I was paralegal legal counsel.
um, for four pretty big name firms that are well known in New York now. Um, and at that point I was, I dunno, it was year like seven or eight that I was in it and I did a solo trip to Puerto Rico along with a bunch of other solo trips abroad and I just realized how much I valued my time.
And I was making a really good salary, you know, at 22, 23, 24, 25. I was making six figures already and I didn’t have any time to spend my money. And that’s when I was like, all right, like I’m making a good salary and I’ll just take off at this time and maybe in my thirties and I’ll do this and I’ll do that. And I was, you know, flying red eye in and out of my firm to like do long weekends to Europe and all this stuff. And I just.
Jason Elkins (20:21.802)
was so sick of meeting people that were on their like five-week leave and their sabbaticals. And I was like, I want to do that. I need to do that. And I took a solo trip down to Puerto Rico just to kind of like reset and reboot and met a bartender there that had some really interesting conversations with and chatted with. And he traveled all over the world. And I was like, you know what? That’s what I’m going to do.
that I’m gonna figure out how I’m gonna do it. And I got back and I figured it out. I’ve never been to a national park in my life, not a big hiker, loved the outdoors, I loved exploring and I traveled a lot, extensively, but within the United States, didn’t really do as much adventure travel, but I definitely had it in me and I wanted to see more. And I got a job as an entry level guide with a company called Intrepid, which is a really well known brand worldwide. And I…
worked for them domestically for my whole first part of my guiding career and quit my job and sold everything I own, put stuff in storage, went out west, you know, with my fancy nails and my pink suitcase coming from New York City. And everybody looks at me like, yeah, right, this girl’s never going to make it. And here we are 14 years later and lots of certifications later, lots of years of guiding. I was a back country guide for five years in Alaska. And here we are.
That is so cool. So then if we go back to the beginning of our conversation, we’re talking about someone’s listening to this, thinking they wanna get out of the more traditional life and into guiding or tourism, obviously it can happen. You’re proof of that. And the other thing that comes up for me is you also said that the guiding and working in this business, I don’t remember the exact words, but it sounded like this is the hardest job I’ve ever done.
That’s what I heard, right? And when I think of being a junior associate at a law firm in New York, I’m thinking that would be the hardest job I could even imagine, but for different reasons, right? It’s a hard job because I have to work a lot or it’s a hard job because it’s soul sucking and it’s just not my thing. So, tourism can be the hardest job you’ve ever had or done.
Jason Elkins (22:47.766)
but it can also be the most rewarding job. And I’m not speaking for you, I’m speaking for me. Yeah, you know, it’s like, okay, yeah, it’s hard. I work a lot of hours, there’s a lot of uncertainty, there’s a lot of just whatever that makes it hard. But boy, sitting in a cubicle in New York, I don’t know, I’m not saying you’re in a cubicle, but looking at, you know, reviewing graphs or doing legal research or whatever to me sounds like that would be the most difficult thing I could ever imagine.
It’s just, but it’s me. And I also recognize that I’m not like everybody. You’re obviously not like everybody. So what did your family think? Or what did the other people at the law firm, your colleagues there think, or friends and family when you’re like, yeah, I’m gonna go out west and be a wilderness guide. I mean, that must have just been mind blowing. Yeah, I mean, my family was probably not impressed when I announced that one, especially my grandmother. She’s like, you don’t even have a car.
She’s like, what are you talking about? And they did ask me that on my interview too when I was a guy, they’re like, do you not drive? Because they seemed like I was coming from New York City and I’d be driving like this, yeah. I got a trailer, take the subway every day, no problem. Yeah, my family.
warmed up to it. It took them a minute. My mom was really proud of me. She’s like, cool. People at my firm were not surprised because I was like the wild traveler. And like, I started planning a lot of the attorney’s honeymoons and anniversaries. So they would just like, trust me. They’re like, oh, Melissa’s really good at organizing and finding the best rates for this. And it was just like a natural progression that I should be in some sort of travel industry. And now I design the tours for, you know.
our company, well, some of them, you know, it’s kind of been fun this past year. There’ve been a couple of points in my life where I kind of stepped away from, you know, the adventure tourism. And as I’ve come back, I’ve always felt like I’m coming home as far as the tribe, right? The tribe is a word that keeps coming up for me. I know a lot of people use it when we’re talking about tourism, adventure tourism. And when I’m around people that
Jason Elkins (25:10.594)
kind of get it or just kind of feel the same way about it as I do. I just always kind of feel, oh yeah, that’s my tribe. And when I’ve been outside of the adventure travel space, it’s like, I just feel like sometimes I don’t even know how to resonate with these people. They may be the same type of people that I would have led on trips or spent time with in the field and I resonated with them just fine when I was in my element. But when I’m working in a different element, it’s always been, it’s been a challenge. Do you, I don’t know, do you have any thoughts on kind of like…
Do you feel like that when you’re around travel people or what’s like, I don’t know. I’m not sure where I’m going with the question. I’m not sure what the question is, but I just wanted to chat with you about that. Yeah, when I first started my first year and we had our training class, I mean, to say that these people are my family is an understatement. I’ll always have my family from work.
back east, but the adventure travel sector is where like my tribe is. And the things we’ve done together, the experiences we’ve all had together, very few groups of friends can say they’ve been and done all of these things collectively together. And, you know, every single one of my friends has been to the Grand Canyon to guide a trip more than a hundred times.
It’s just a thing that we share and we went through training together. And now me in this role, I have two guides working for us that I’ve been friends with for 15 years that are two of my lead guides. So like I seen us all come up like from nothing to this. So it’s, it’s incredible. I mean, we’ve just been like all over the U S Canada, Alaska together. And then a lot of us have traveled.
abroad in the winters and I’ve been in a bunch of weddings. A lot of my friends have gotten married to each other, to guides and now they have all their little babies coming up and so it’s, I mean, it’s quite, and it’s really cool to see in this role now because since I started, I’ve been building up like a bigger training program and how we do things and how to build camaraderie. And I see my baby guides now all like forming this path.
Jason Elkins (27:35.41)
and they’re all in it together and they’re all traveling. I’m like, that’s how we were. Isn’t it? It is, it’s just, it’s super cool. And if you’ve never worked in that space, you know, I mean, even people that have just taken a summer and go do it for summer, it’s a great experience because you just really, yeah, it is. If you’re just doing something, well, one thing that really bonds us with other people is shared experiences. That’s my highest value, is shared experiences. Hands down, I figured that out a long time ago.
That’s my highest value, shared experiences. And you really share experiences with your colleagues when you work in this space, when you work in adventure tourism, because you’re sharing with your clients, you’re sharing it with your colleagues. It’s all about shared experiences. And those shared experiences creates such a strong bond where if you’re working something a little bit more routine, maybe, whether that’s a law firm, medicine, logistics, whatever,
There might be some challenges, obviously. It’s not always routine, but it’s just a totally different thing as opposed to maybe camping out, you know? Cause some of the back country stuff is like, that’s, it’s a really cool bonding experience to sit, you know, sit around the fire with your clients and the other guides and everybody’s just connecting and you just don’t get that in typical workplace. So I get that completely. So thank you so much for sharing all that. It wasn’t necessarily the plan.
to discuss all that, but I think it’s really, really valuable for anybody that’s listening to it that’s trying to, maybe they’re trying to understand why somebody in their family picked up and sold everything and moved out west or, you know, I’ve been traveling full time for two years now and I’ve worked in the tourism industry for quite a while. My family still didn’t get it when I’m like, okay, I’m gone. I’m in South America now and it’s, but you know, it’s pretty powerful.
One of the things I did want to ask you about, because I know you’ve got some expertise and some experience with it, and it’s super, super relevant to what’s going on in tourism, is social media. Obviously, social media is huge and everything, and it really has changed things, because when you got involved, things were, you know. Different. You know, you weren’t posting selfies on Instagram or taking pictures of the campfire and putting them on Instagram or whatever. So tell.
Jason Elkins (29:56.166)
Tell them share with me and anybody that’s listening kind of what your experience has been around social media and Whether you think that’s a good thing bad thing. What is it? What is it done to change the industry? Bring people together whatever just what do you think? Yeah. Yeah, I’ll talk about that and I’ll also talk about how like Generationally the guides have changed because of that And I really see it because I’m like front and center for how it was how it is and where it’s going
Um, and social media, it’s a blessing and a curse. I mean, I can argue it both ways. It’s the bread and butter to how we get our name out, how things go viral so quickly, how we can blast out a million different.
online press releases, stuff like that, and how everything’s shareable. But with that said also, if there’s something negative connected to your company, it can spread out that way. But when we go like pre and post social media too, I know, and I remember what the parks were like before Instagram. And I know what they were like before COVID and during COVID. And
And COVID was just like a whole nother layer of added fun for everything. So it’s definitely increased people’s curiosity, I would say to go out. But on the flip side, I feel like the trend of being outside and Instagramming something that is trending has become a thing. And I…
like as a tour company, we have to be really responsible with our delivery on why we’re bringing people places and talking about them. And that’s why we’re so heavy on geology, ecology, history. We want to make sure they’re educated because we really want to make sure people have the correct information going to places and are respecting our federal lands and respecting our parks and being safe in them as well. So I think social media has definitely
Jason Elkins (32:16.278)
you know, just say they’ve been places and done this. But then also it’s opened a window for the curiosity of like, wow, that’s so cool. I wanna go there and I wanna check it out. So it’s increased profitability into regions that didn’t have that prior. So I think attracting people to the right things for the right reasons is still kind of like, you know, something I think we see both sides of.
But that’s why I really like working for a guiding company because they’re hiring guides, they’re hiring professionals, they’re hiring people to get out there. And it’s increased traffic, it’s increased volume and we’ve done a lot more patients now go into places like certain parks like Yosemite and Zion. It’s just, you have to wait sometimes to get in them. It’s become like Disneyland in a lot of places. Right. And one of the things I think
thought of when you were saying that about respecting the lands and the environment. And you use the word safety. And immediately this image popped into my head of, you know, the Instagram photo op, right? Where there’s the person that will spend a lot of time and effort to get to a spot for the five and realistically the 30 second photo op.
because they stand in line behind a bunch of other people to, and then they’ve got their 30 seconds, they take their photo and it’s all they can see some, not everybody obviously, but you know, it’s all about that one photo. And there’s so much cool stuff going on around them that they’re missing because they wanna be, you know, there’s just, you know, there’s a few key places that everybody’s like, oh, I gotta get my picture at, you know, on a swing in Bali or something, you know? And it’s like, okay.
Um, but also like people pushing the limits to get the picture just a little bit better than the last person, a little closer to the edge, you know, of the canyon, a little closer to the Buffalo as, you know, compared to their friends and go on going for that. So I can see where that could be. Probably a little frustrating for the guides. I would think I would be a little frustrated, honestly, if I had a group and like,
Jason Elkins (34:37.034)
at a bunch of younger folks that is all they cared about was getting a picture in front of some weird, I don’t know what it would be, but yeah, at the same time, it also encourages more people to get out and go do things too, doesn’t it? So there’s a trade off. It is, there’s a trade off. And I’m in no place to judge anyone on why they’re doing something or getting out there because it’s a public space.
We’re happy that people are out there. We’re happy people are paying entrance fees, but you know, RAI said it best, we’re loving our parks to death. And it shows and we see it. And you know, I think a lot of people don’t realize that they don’t nearly have as much free will as they think they do. I mean, we’re all influenced to do something for some reason. And…
I think during COVID, that was the perfect example of like, we were all cooped up and a lot of people wanted to get out and the parks weren’t monitored. So a lot of people were doing stuff. And I think kind of like that two year exhaustion of like going out and doing stuff. And I think a lot of people have kind of like reset and reboot now of like, is that what I really like to do? Is that where I really wanna go? And we’re kind of seeing those like normal booking trends coming back now and more normalized.
inbounds and outbound travel. And the parks are, this year I noticed, busy, but not like they were the year before with the lines and the traffic. So I think a lot of people got out there, checked boxes, seen things, did things. They’re like, okay, I did it. And then there’s gonna be the people that, no matter what, those parks are part of their lifeline, you know, and they wanna get out there. But it became this really, we had this bell curve in trends
being in parks and doing this and getting these photos and doing this. And it was just this like perfect storm of everything. Did you see, did you kind of mentioned about the guides? I’m curious if you saw that, like when you were hiring for guides at some point in the last year or so, did you see guides or guide applicants coming in? Maybe you never spoke with them, but you just kind of got this feeling that, yeah, they saw too much stuff on Instagram.
Jason Elkins (36:58.39)
Like, they just think it’s a really cool thing to go to because all their friends are gonna like, I wanna go be a country guide and take all these amazing pictures. Everybody’s gonna think, wow, I’m living the life. And they have no connection with what the reality might look like. Yeah, I would imagine. Yeah, I’m pretty good now at like, looking at applications come in and being like.
Jason Elkins (37:24.122)
Do you look at their social media?
Generally, not in the first round. Right. If I, and this will start up for me in another, you know, eight weeks, I’ll start looking at who’s coming back and who I’m going to start interviewing. But I will look at their social media. I’ll ask them to make it public for me. And then there’s certain people I just get red flags from and there’s certain people right out of the gates where I’m like, yes, like that is the type of person.
It’s interesting the things certain people write in applications too, because I’m like, it sounds like you wanna be on the vacation. It doesn’t sound like you actually, yeah. So, you know, those are all selling. That’s what I’m thinking, right? For me, it’s a learning experience. I’m getting better at doing my job and hiring the right people. But it is tough because like, okay, you wanna be on the vacation. It’s like, yeah, it’s tough because you wanna like,
You want a guy that’s enthusiastic and excited about being where they’re at. And you want somebody that also understands and realizes that this is not, you know, that you’re there to make sure other people are having a great vacation. So there’s the, there’s the balance. I think for me in fishing, in fly fishing, it was a real clear distinction. Like a good guide was the one that didn’t have to fish. Cause if you’re taking clients fishing.
In my opinion, you’re not fishing. I mean, I’ve been with guides that pick up a rod. I think it’s not, I would not, they would not work for me. Let’s put it that way. But you go out on a fly fishing trap and the guide picks up a rod and is fishing. That’s not guiding. A good guide is the one that can fish through the people, right, that is more excited to watch somebody else catch a fish than they are to catch a fish themselves.
Jason Elkins (39:25.846)
So there’s a lot of people that really like to fly fish that think, oh, I’d love to be a fly fishing guide because I get to go fishing all day every day. But that’s not, no, that’s not it. If you can get excited about watching other people catch fish all day, then you’re probably have, you know, you’re off to a good start for being a guide. So I would think it’s gotta be kind of the same thing in a lot of the tours and stuff that you do. It’s like, if you can get excited about watching someone see the Grand Canyon for the first time.
If that gets you excited, great. If seeing the Grand Canyon yourself is the only reason you’re there, then it’s, yeah, that’s, I can, that must be interesting. I’d love to be a fly on the wall just to watch your interview process. Cause I can just imagine some of the things that you’ve seen and heard and a lot of good stuff too. Cause I know you meet some amazing people doing that obviously. Cause people that want to do this type of work usually are pretty interesting and very, you know, just good people. So.
Yeah. Wow. Okay. So we covered quite a bit. You’re winding down from a long season. Really appreciate you. Appreciate you joining us. What would you, you mentioned a couple things and I wanted that I want to ask you, what is a public itinerary? Cause you mentioned something about some of your trips and I heard you say public itinerary. I also heard you say white label. I don’t want to assume anybody here listening to this knows what those terms mean. So could you just give us a quick education on that?
on that and then a little bit of information about what you suggest people do if they wanna reach out to you, with you either for employment opportunities or to discuss booking trips. So very good. Definitely. So all of our itineraries online have public departures except one, it’s a private departure only just because it’s a day trip and we don’t run it a lot and it doesn’t book a lot. So if people wanna do it, they can only book it private.
But all of our itineraries are bookable in a public setting or a private setting. And the public setting means you book as many seats as you like. If it’s a group of three, a group of one, if you want to be single, if you’re going with your boyfriend, your girlfriend, whatever, and you’re matched up with other single travelers, and it’s a group of up to 13 people usually. And if you want to book the same exact itinerary because you like it, but you have six friends and you want to book it private,
Jason Elkins (41:53.278)
In order to become a private trip for us, you have to book a minimum of six to eight seats for the van. You don’t have to have six to eight people. You have to book six to eight seats to have the private trip. And then we do private custom, which is totally off the cuff. You just tell us what you want, whether it’s camping, lodging, high-end luxury, glamping, and you give us the places you wanna go. And then we plan everything.
based on your budgeting, if you want meals included. So we do a little bit of everything and that’s on the Bindelstiff brand. Then the white label is we are the operator, meaning we are the ground support, we are the guides, we are the permits, we are the operations for the entire trip from A to Z, but it’s not our brands on the bus. It’s say Mountain Travel Soback or Intrepid Travel or Abercrombie and Kent.
and they’re kind of the sales force behind the tours, they’re booking and we operate what the brand wants. So we don’t have as much say in their itineraries, we support it and we give feedback and we tell them what’s good and how we’re gonna run things and we work more, but they’re more the customizable, what they want from us and they hire us. So they’re our client.
and that’s called white labeling. And most companies do that. Yeah, I’d love to hear your thoughts on it. Cause I actually just recorded an interview with another wonderful guest earlier today. And we had this conversation around, you know, booking directly with the tour operator that’s running the trip as opposed to booking through, you know, an outbound tour operator that’s marketing the trip and selling the trip. And, you know, everybody in this business has kind of their own opinions about these different things.
And sometimes I think it’s great, you know, I’d love to know your thoughts. If you’re talking to a family member or a friend that says you mentioned Abercrombie and Kent specifically, so I’m gonna use that name. If you’ve got a friend says, hey, we’re looking at this trip with Abercrombie and Kent, and you know intuitively that, oh, well, there’s somebody like Bindelstiff is doing the management of the trip, the operation of the trip. What do you tell your friend about
Jason Elkins (44:10.326)
What’s the benefit of booking with Abercrombie and Kent? And I know they’re gonna love to hear whatever you say right now. So why should someone book with an Abercrombie Kent when they could potentially figure out who the operator is on the ground and book directly? Because there’s advantages to both sides, right? Yeah, I’ll be really raw about it because people who book with Abercrombie and Kent are on the more wealthy side.
they don’t even understand that there is a different operator for Abercrombie and Ken. And sometimes they never will because we are basically like one machine. Like we pick up and we’re very in tune with Abercrombie and Ken. So we’ve got their branding on the side of the truck. And people of that caliber with money don’t care about
saving a little. They want the branding because the branding is so important to them. It’s a very well-known name. It started in Africa. It’s high on luxury. But if there’s people that are shopping for a tour and they see that, and they can figure out that there’s a different operator, it’s always best to go straight to the source, which would be us. But we’re also really careful about never stepping on toes of
companies that know that there’s a different operator in us trying to regain their business, if they naturally come to us, great, but we never really pitch them to come over because we work with these brands. So we all work as one family together. But direct bookings are obviously great because it’s more profitable for the guests.
more profitable for the guest, meaning just more cost effective for them. They save a little bit of money by doing that. Can you think of. And sometimes there are scenarios where there may be other benefits like Abercrombie and Kent. OK, their typical client may not want to spend a lot of time and effort trying to figure out how they can save a couple hundred bucks. They’re happy with Abercrombie and Kent. They’ve done Abercrombie and Kent trips in the past. They know that Abercrombie and Kent isn’t going to partner with somebody that’s not going to do a good job.
Jason Elkins (46:31.746)
So there’s all kinds of reasons that an Abercrombie and Kent client would want to book with Abercrombie and Kent. And I also realize there are some other times when it might make sense to book through, you know, kind of the larger brand that’s working with an operator like yourself, because they’ve gone on other trips. Sometimes they have relationships with those brands, that type of thing. And just that peace of mind.
It’s just of knowing that like, cause I remember when I worked at, you know, I worked, I’ve been doing this for a while too. And a company like Abercrombie Cat cares an awful lot about, I don’t know, that’s trying to think how I’m trying to describe this. So the relationship between two vendors, two travel businesses, two tour operators is very, very important. And
when a client books through one of them to have an experience with the other one, they’ve got a lot of protection there. Cause they’ve got like both brands really want you to be happy. Like Abercrombie and Kent really wants you to be happy. You want them to be happy because you really rely on your relationship with Abercrombie and Kent. Abercrombie and Kent relies on their relationship with you. So there’s a lot of like influence. It’s like, wow, we dropped the ball.
we’re gonna eat this one because we value the relationships. So we’re gonna eat this, we’re gonna fix this, we’re gonna do whatever we need to do and make it right. Whereas if you’re just a one-off persons, and I’m not talking about Bindelstaff, this is just in general, I’m sharing this with people just that are listening that might wanna consider this. Let’s say there’s a big company and you figure out that they’re using another company, a white label operator to do the trip. And you said, you know what? I’m just gonna go to the white label operator, whoever that company is.
and you go to them and you have a less than stellar experience and you’re not happy about it, and you say, you know what, I’m not happy. I want you guys to make this right. They may respond differently than if you had booked it through the Abercrombie and Kent, because if you booked it through the big company that sends them a lot of business, the big company is going to say, okay, yeah, we’re going to fix this. You know, you just got a little bit more leverage with them. So I don’t know why I wanted to share that. I just…
Jason Elkins (48:53.45)
I think sometimes there is a benefit to stick in with the larger tour operator as well. Especially if it’s out of the country. I mean, that’s the first thing, honestly, that pops into my mind. It’s like, okay, I’ve got a company like Abercrombie Kent that does a lot of stuff in Africa. Do I really want to try and reach out to the Bush camp directly? And, you know, to save a couple hundred bucks, but then I got to pay, you know, 3% surcharge on my credit card because they don’t take credit cards.
and all this stuff as well. So it’s just, I just wanted to mention that because not everybody understands the white label thing and what that means. So thank you so much for getting into that. Yeah, it makes so much sense to us because we do it and people are very brand loyal. So what I’ve seen over the years is there’s itineraries that we as a company, Bindelstiff don’t run because we’re just not there yet in our…
expansive, like we just expanded with seven new trips, but Mountain Travel, Sovac, Intrepid Travel, Sawadee, Abercrombie and Kent, these are like powerhouses that like people know they’re brand loyal to. So they’re giving us guaranteed sales and we have strong relationships with them where like if we were to identically modify or whatever, take one of their itineraries and sell it ourselves, we’re
We don’t have that sales force yet for that specific itinerary, but we are the operator because we have the permits, we’re the professionals, we’re this and we’re that, but with years and years of experience, now we’re like, oh, we can run all these different itineraries because people know BindleStiff, but it takes a long time to get to that point. And that’s why you partner with other brands because they can’t operate it because they’re a sales force and they’re just a branding.
and they do like the IT and the SEO and everything else from back end, but they don’t have permits, they don’t have CDL drivers, they don’t have vehicles, they don’t have guides, they don’t have any of this stuff. And like without that, you can’t guide a trip. I love that you described it the way you did because that’s the point that people have hard times sometimes with is like, well, why would I book it through them because they’re not actually doing it. And there’s sometimes there’s some just like resistance and like, well, why are…
Jason Elkins (51:14.894)
They’re not even doing the trip. They’re just outsourcing it. Well, you could say outsourcing here. You could say leveraging. They’re really good at what they do. They’re still doing a lot. Yeah. We’re really good at what we do. Cause there’s a lot of tour operators, you know, again, set aside Bindlestiff. There’s a lot of tour operators out there that are amazing at the operation end of it. They’re like really good guides, really good equipment, really good experience, but their website is horrible. Or they’re-
They don’t even have a payment portal. You got to mail them a check or you got to fax in your reservation. So it just makes sense. Of course, you know, why would you not want a good planner to take care of the planning portion, collect the money, make sure all the details are set up in advance and then work with a great operator. It makes sense. Nobody’s, you know, in travel industry, we’re not trying to.
get a fastball by you or something. It’s just that’s, you know, we all have different strengths. It’s just the marriage between, yeah, it’s the marriage and we’re really lucky. And I joined Bindelstiff at a really cool time post, you know, COVID and we’re really good at everything is what I can say is we’ve got a good website. We’ve got great relationships. We pump out our own tours. We’re designing.
We just launched our very first mountain biking, fully active trip. So we have our fingers in everything, but that doesn’t mean we still don’t wanna partner with other brands because that’s how we grow as a company. But your first few years, you’re not just like coming out of the gates and competing with all of these other brands to operate your own. No, you partner with them and say, hey, I’ll operate this for you.
And when you do a good job, then they just give you more and more and more stuff. And you don’t have to do a lot of the backend. You just have to operate what they want where when you’re the owner operator, we are designing, contracting, sales, everything for our own stuff. So it’s kind of nice that we’re like, we don’t do the sales for them. They do it on their own and they just send us the.
Jason Elkins (53:21.226)
the ending result of like, you’ve got eight passengers, this one’s got dietary. Here’s their names, here’s what they don’t eat. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, cause I’ve been on both sides of it. And it is, it’s nice when you don’t have to do some of that stuff. Yeah, absolutely. So very cool. And what you said, yes, you’re right. You guys are great. And that’s why I reached out to you to have this conversation. Thank you so much for cutting some time out of your day to share these thoughts, just some great.
things that came out of this conversation, I appreciate you. So what should people know about reaching out to you, connecting with you, looking for jobs, looking for tours, looking, maybe other tour operators, because this is, you know, we’re having conversation with tour operators. You mentioned white label. That’s exactly what we’re talking about, is those relationships. So what would you suggest for people that might want to reach out and connect with you? Anyone that’s looking for any sort of partnership.
for us to operate, please email us at ops, OPS at bind The same thing for hiring. If you go to our website, bind the employment link is there and come December is when we’ll do a big update on everything and I’ll start accepting applications, but you’re more than welcome to send in an application now and I’ll start.
looking at things and we get our guide training program going in April and then it’s from April until October 31st. It’s go time. So yes, and if you’re looking to book a trip, just check out our website. We launched seven new trips September 1st. So we’ve got seven new trips on the docket. We have a really cool eclipse tour that’s going in April for the solar eclipse. So that’s going to be a really cool… Is that something you’re going to be able to access
in the West, I thought that was gonna happen more in the East. Where are you doing that? So it’s in Texas. The trip starts in Austin and it goes out to Hill Country and Fredericksburg. And then we go down to Galveston and San Antonio. And then we go to Louisiana and do the bayous and a swamp tour. And we end in New Orleans and do a cooking class. So it’s 11 days. Sounds super cool. That’s something my son watched do. I was in Phoenix with him just a month or so ago
Jason Elkins (55:44.534)
they had an eclipse. I don’t even remember what they call it. What was the emular? Just two weeks ago. It was the emular. Was it only two weeks? Yeah, it was a couple of weeks ago. And we were in Phoenix, and we drove up to Monument Valley, and we, right outside the gate of Monument Valley, and watched it, and it was really, really cool. And he’s like, okay, dad, you need to come back to the States in April so we can go to this other one. It’s gonna be even better, so. So that’s a- That one’s gonna be wild. Yeah, that one’s really gonna be.
Big. Very cool. Well, so I’ll have a link to your website in the show notes as well. So anybody that’s listening to this should be able to click through to get to your website pretty easily and look forward to more collaboration opportunities with you as well. And Bindelstiff, I’m just really kind of impressed with what I see that you’ve been doing and I look forward to getting more involved with that in the future. So thank you for being on the Big World Made Small podcast. It was great having you here. Thanks, Melissa. Great, thanks Jason.
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