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Episode #182: Nuno Santos Fernandes

Mentor and Partner

Walking Mentorship

Episode #182: Nuno Santos Fernandes
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Guest Bio

Nuno Santos Fernandes is a mentor and partner at Walking Mentorship, a company that combines walking in nature with personal and team development programs. Nuno brings a diverse background that includes founding a dog hotel, running an environmental NGO, managing veterinary clinics, and overseeing development and construction projects. His journey into walking mentorship began unexpectedly during a Camino de Santiago pilgrimage, an experience that profoundly influenced his approach to self-reflection and growth.

Show Summary

In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Nuno Santos Fernandes about his unique approach to personal development through walking. Nuno explains how Walking Mentorship uses nature and walking as intentional tools to facilitate inner reflection and transformation rather than focusing on trekking or physical challenge alone. He emphasizes the importance of slowing down and reconnecting with oneself in the natural environment to gain clarity and create actionable plans for life changes.

Throughout their conversation, Nuno shares insights on how walking in nature naturally encourages a reflective mindset, helping participants explore deeper questions about their lives, relationships, and futures. He also discusses how the programs accommodate different fitness levels and personal needs, making sure the experience remains accessible and meaningful. The episode touches on the value of both solo reflection and group interaction, highlighting how dialogue during these walks can reveal blind spots and foster personal growth.

Nuno reflects on his own journey, from a curious and introverted child to an entrepreneur and mentor dedicated to helping others find balance and intentionality. He shares how his experience on the Camino de Santiago shifted his perspective, allowing him to make peace with difficult decisions and move toward a life chosen consciously. The episode closes with a look at the community and connections formed through these programs and the ongoing work of Walking Mentorship.

Key Takeaways

  • ✓ Walking in nature serves as a co-facilitator for personal and team development, creating space for reflection and insight.
  • ✓ The programs focus on internal journeys rather than just physical endurance or hiking achievements.
  • ✓ Slowing down during walks is encouraged to help participants reconnect with their pace and surroundings.
  • ✓ Walking naturally supports mental clarity by shifting the brain into a more relaxed, wide-focus state.
  • ✓ Reflection during walking is structured with prompts and opportunities to capture insights for future action planning.
  • ✓ Group conversations during walks help participants organize their thoughts, uncover blind spots, and gain new perspectives.
  • ✓ The programs are designed to be accessible and adjustable to different physical abilities and life stages.
  • ✓ Personal growth is supported through incremental changes rather than drastic overnight transformations.
  • ✓ Participants often experience meaningful connections and friendships through shared experiences in the programs.
  • ✓ Walking Mentorship emphasizes voluntary participation and creating a safe, supportive environment for individual journeys.

What You’ll Find on Walking Mentorship

  • ✓ Personal and team development programs that integrate walking in nature as a central tool for growth.
  • ✓ Immersive week-long and shorter programs across Europe, the US, Asia, and Africa.
  • ✓ A focus on reflection, mindfulness, and intentional life planning rather than extreme physical challenges.
  • ✓ Guided prompts and structured reflection exercises during walks to help participants gain clarity.
  • ✓ Opportunities for both solitary reflection and meaningful group interactions.
  • ✓ A welcoming space for individuals at different stages of life seeking to reconnect with themselves and nature.
  • ✓ Access to the Keep Walking With Me Podcast hosted by Nuno and his colleagues.

Learn more about Walking Mentorship and connect with Nuno at:

https://walkingmentorship.com

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Podcast Transcript

This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.

Jason Elkins (00:01.049)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. So happy to have each and every one of you back here with us today and also very excited to have my guest today. We’ve got Nuno Santos Fernandez. He is my mentor and partner with Walking Mentorship. Nuno, welcome to the show. Happy to have you here.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (00:20.696)
Thank you, Jason. Happy to be here. Really an honor.

Jason Elkins (00:24.081)
It’s gonna be a fascinating conversation for me, hopefully for you as well, because I get to hear your story and kind of figure out how you got from where you were to where you are now. Before we do that, I want to give our listeners kind of an opportunity to understand, you know, what is walking mentorship? We’re gonna get into it quite a bit later in the conversation, but for now, kind of what’s the 30, 60 second elevator pitch on what is walking mentorship? What do you guys do?

Nuno Santos Fernandes (00:33.784)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (00:44.622)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (00:49.72)
Well, very shortly we do personal or team development programs that are elevated by walking in nature. So basically we take people to walk in nature and use that as co-facilitator for whatever we’re working on.

Jason Elkins (01:06.467)
Okay, it sounds like you’ve practiced that a few times or you’ve just got it really clear in your head what you do, so that’s very cool.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:13.134)
I think it’s just clear, but yes, I have said that a few times.

Jason Elkins (01:16.881)
I Because seriously like I didn’t just ask that question for the listeners I was you know I mean you and I spoke a couple weeks ago But when we spoke I said don’t tell me too much now because when we come back and record I want it to be spontaneous and I want to be learning just as much as our listeners at the same time So thank you for that. We’re gonna get more into the details of what that’s all about. Well, let me ask you this though I think where is sometimes an important question because I speak with people

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:24.59)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (01:44.995)
around the world. Where are you located? Where do you guys work? And what should our listeners know about that?

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:47.214)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:51.17)
Well, so both me and my business partner and the founder of Walking Mentorship, we are based in Portugal around Lisbon, but actually we work throughout Europe, a bit in the US and now we’re also working in Asia, in Japan. And actually this year we’ll have for the first time a program in Africa. So we’re kind of moving around.

Jason Elkins (02:14.637)
very cool. Now, are your typical guests people that live locally and go on these trips with you? Or do you like if you do something in Africa, we get people from all over the world or in Japan as well? Yeah.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (02:27.75)
Yeah, mostly they come from several different places. I would say a large percentage from Europe and the US, I would say, but then South America, Asia, Australia, Africa, everywhere, really.

Jason Elkins (02:43.857)
Okay, all right, very cool. Help me understand the difference between, like, you didn’t show up and say, Jason, we’re a trekking company. So help me understand the difference between a trekking company and walking mentorship.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (02:57.24)
Well, that’s fundamental for us. Actually, one of the things we sometimes struggle to make clear to our potential clients. We don’t organize walks. We don’t organize tracking expeditions. We organize self-development or team development programs. The fact that they are, as I mentioned, elevated or facilitated while walking in nature, it’s

by design, it’s intentional and it is fundamental to the process. But the goal is not to take you on a nice hike or a nice trek. It’s to take you on an inner travel, an inner voyage, let’s say, where the outside is helping you to go through that transformation process. But it’s about your internal trip, your internal flight, let’s say.

more than your external walk.

Jason Elkins (03:57.841)
I love that concept. And as I listen to you say that, I think of things like, climbing Mount Kilimanjaro is a personal thing that’s about overcoming things and pushing yourself and all that. So I think that some of those things can just happen by just people doing big physical activities. But I’m curious with what you’re doing, is there an element of

Nuno Santos Fernandes (04:20.268)
Definitely.

Jason Elkins (04:27.729)
pushing themselves like so somebody listening to this is like, okay, I’m to go work on my internal demons because new nose going to have me hiking, you know, 25 miles a day in the sleet and the rain and all that stuff. Or is it not quite that hardcore? How would you describe it?

Nuno Santos Fernandes (04:43.342)
So, maybe starting by the end, we don’t see the walking or the nature as extreme. We see them as help, as facilitators, as I mentioned. So we don’t really go for very extreme things and we try to adjust always to the participants level. So, you know, it’s good to go a bit off your comfort zone.

Jason Elkins (04:58.021)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (05:11.138)
but not into survival mode because then it kind of makes it hard to reflect. I would say the big difference and let’s say what we try to do really in a deliberate way is to create the conditions that that process, which naturally I think will happen whenever you go on a kind of a pilgrimage or a long walk or climbing Kilimanjaro, whatever that is.

Jason Elkins (05:12.955)
Okay.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (05:38.762)
naturally you will go into a reflective mode. mean, the fact there are a lot of studies these days about the impacts of walking in nature. Probably that’s very much related to our own nature. I mean, we’ve been in this planet for 300,000 years and we’ve been walking the vast majority of that time. We’ve domesticated horses 10,000 years ago. So the majority of the time we were walking, not doing anything else, not driving, not writing, not

you know, not anything, just walking. So walking and walking in nature, obviously, which is our natural environment, would be the typical behavior of a human for the vast majority of our existence. So just being there in that natural environment kind of creates the ideal conditions for a good reflective mode, a good moment to really think deeply.

And what we try to do is to create a structure of prompts and also of, let’s say, a medium, a support where you are kind of guided in that reflection so that you create a structure, a flow, and also that you have the opportunity to register, you know, to take note of what are the highlights, the insights, the clarities that you gain throughout that walk. And that way, you really…

take the best out of that process. Whereas if you just do the walk, you will probably get clarity on many things, but most likely it will be either scattered or might in the end be lost because you just, you know, you go back home, back to your day-to-day life and everything is left behind. Whereas we always try to help you create an action plan to actually bring the decisions, the clarity, the…

insight that you have and the decisions that you’ve made into your future, bring them to an action plan and bring them to your life the next day. So when you go back home, take it with you and start at least moving, even if it’s just a little step a day in the direction that you want to go.

Jason Elkins (07:53.041)
I love it. And as I was listening to you, you said, well, we’ve been walking forever. And yes, I get the point you’re saying. And it also came up to me that, but we’ve kind of gotten away from that as a society. So yes, we still have the ability to walk. There’s still benefits of walking. But I suspect that maybe our listeners are a little bit more active than the average person out there. But yeah, there’s…

Nuno Santos Fernandes (08:07.63)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (08:22.627)
I suspect a lot of your clients haven’t really gone on a walk in a while or at least, know, or they’re being purposeful about joining one of your programs because they know that they haven’t been either on a walk or in nature for quite a while. Is that is that accurate? Do you feel like you get a lot of people that are like, I know I need to get out and start moving. I know that I need to get out and connect with myself and nature as opposed to doom scrolling on my phone, that type of thing. I don’t want to make it right.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (08:48.694)
We, yeah, that does happen quite a lot. And especially in our immersive programs, which are, let’s say our flagship program, a week long program, or we go on this pilgrimage or long hikes, typically people, which are group programs where people join. So the groups are just naturally formed. People just join the random group. And those people are usually quite intentional and quite deliberate about that.

let’s say they help, it kind of joins the several benefits. So you go to a beautiful destination that you like, you go for a walk, which probably you know it’s good for you, and you’re gonna reflect on your life and probably come up with a better action plan to improve your life. So it builds on the three, let’s say the three levels. But when we do corporate programs where people…

Although we are very clear that it should always be a voluntary activity, you should never mandate your employees to join. But you know, there are many ways it never happens, ever, ever.

Jason Elkins (09:53.597)
Yeah, that never that never happens. I’ve worked in the corporate world. remember, volunteer, volun-told, think they call it. You’re volunteering to do it, but you’re told that you’re going to volunteer. Yeah, I remember.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (10:01.235)
Yeah.

Yeah. Well, we have a joke in Portuguese, which is the father who tells to his son, my dear son, whether you like it or not, you’re going to be a volunteer firefighter. So it’s kind of, you know, but well, we are still insistent and we really try to make that clear that it should be a volunteer activity, but still.

Jason Elkins (10:20.081)
Okay.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (10:31.778)
There are many ways where people will not feel comfortable to say, no, I’m not joining a team building activity. And of course we understand that. And so it’s.

Jason Elkins (10:40.709)
Well, let me ask this while we’re there because this is kind of a fascinating, I’m envisioning it. I spent four and a half years in the Army, so I got voluntold a lot and I didn’t have a choice. But if somebody shows up on a corporate group, have you had people kind of pull you aside or is it just obvious that they didn’t really want to be there?

Nuno Santos Fernandes (10:51.512)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (11:03.761)
And what is, I don’t want you to necessarily give away your secrets, but like what do you do in that situation where someone shows up a corporate group, I don’t really want to be here, I don’t know, I just want to know how you handle that.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (11:16.174)
Well, let’s say that we’ve never had anyone as far as I remember saying they don’t want to be here. Usually they come up with a sudden disease or sprain or something. But I would say the most challenging situation we’ve had was on a day corporate program, we specifically told, well, have weather gear with you, have rain protection because it’s going to rain the full day.

Jason Elkins (11:25.418)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (11:43.717)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (11:45.438)
And a lady came with high heels and totally unprepared. So she got soaked on the first five minutes and basically she had to go back into the car because obviously it was impossible for her to walk with us. So, well, think she, yeah, well, if you want, you find a way. If you don’t want to find an excuse. So in the end, there’s

Jason Elkins (12:00.667)
She planned that very well, didn’t she? If that’s what she wanted, you know.

Jason Elkins (12:12.005)
Yeah, And we don’t want to make this sound like it’s torture, because I’m sure maybe some of your future clients might be listening to this. So someone in a corporate HR department thinking about doing a team building activity, we don’t want to make it sound like it’s horrible. I suspect you’ve also had people at the end of the experience that either you just kind of intuitively knew maybe didn’t really want to do it or weren’t that excited about it. But then you saw a shift in them and you and.

because that’s the idea of doing this stuff, right?

Nuno Santos Fernandes (12:42.004)
Yes, well, I would say, I think in everything, some people will enjoy it more than others, and some people take more benefit than others. And it’s always a very personal journey. Even if it’s a team building process, then each person is a person. But usually people in the end, they

Well, they get the kick from the all the endorphins and all the natural processes that go inside. So usually people get happy with that. That’s a natural process. Our bodies are designed to generate. So that always helps. But also in most cases, I can remember as you were asking the question, I can remember a case of a participant.

Jason Elkins (13:13.424)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (13:16.847)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (13:37.934)
He was, I mean, if you ask me, I would say he was hating the program the whole week. thought, honestly, I was sorry for the guy. I thought this guy is having the worst week of his life. I mean, he got into a fist fight with some random guy that had nothing to do with the group. He got lost. He got sick. He got a cold and was, he was having…

Jason Elkins (13:44.914)
Okay

Nuno Santos Fernandes (14:08.534)
a horrible, in my opinion, a horrible time. And interestingly enough, spontaneously without any prompts from our side, he reached out after two years saying, I want to say thank you because you gave me one of the best weeks of my life. So I don’t, in his case, I actually thought it was a bit of a torture for most people, our problem.

Jason Elkins (14:11.024)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (14:27.748)
wow.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (14:37.368)
programs are really very enjoyable. And I mean, we don’t walk 25 miles a day. We don’t like to talk about miles. Actually, we don’t like to put the focus there because what we try to do very honestly is to adjust, to give you sufficient challenge physically to make it, you know, kick in, to make it be impactful, but not really make it so hard that it’s, you know, suffering that you’re already, you know,

Jason Elkins (15:03.867)
that you’re thankful you lived through the week.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (15:07.276)
Like for instance, we strongly encourage people to bring their own backpacks. Actually, we use that as a metaphor for life. If you put too little inside, you will miss things, but if you put too many things inside, you will probably be overburdened. So it’s kind of a good way to think about life and to understand that we need far less than we usually think. But then if people have a back problem or for some reason they’re suffering, of course we find

Jason Elkins (15:15.014)
Mmm.

Jason Elkins (15:28.549)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (15:35.982)
alternatives and we find, you know, a luggage transfer, whatever. So this is always to create conditions that you are in the best possible situation to reflect about your life, to gain clarity about where you are, your reality map, what you want to really improve into your future. So when you look into the future, you gain perspective into that future and you can really think where you want to have

a better life in the doesn’t matter if it’s six months one year three years we we usually say well don’t go beyond one year because that’s usually science fiction because we don’t know what’s going to happen but anyway if you start planning if you start at least thinking well i i want to you know be feeder sleeping better having a better relationship with my kids having a better work-life balance whatever that is and if you start you know

Jason Elkins (16:16.952)
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Elkins (16:29.329)
Hmm?

Nuno Santos Fernandes (16:34.254)
You gain clarity on that. You are very specific. You create an action plan, whatever that might be, you need to be creative there. And then when you look back and you see where you were and then you see where you got and you see how much life can change by little incremental changes, just like walking, you just give a little exactly.

Jason Elkins (16:55.986)
One step at a time, right? One step at a time. All right.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (16:59.352)
So it’s all there. It’s all there. It kind of flows naturally into it.

Jason Elkins (17:04.773)
I think I want to address one thing that I’ve heard from a lot of operators that do tracks and, you know, things that are kind of more physically challenged, whether that’s bicycling or skiing or whatever. A common thing that I hear is people and even from guests, you know, I’ve worked with a lot of guests in the past and there’s that concern about, well, what if I’m the slowest one? Right. I think a lot of people don’t want to be the one slowing down the group.

And I think that comes up a lot. think you get a group of 12 people, 10 of them are coming into this thinking, I don’t want to slow down the group. And obviously, you know, so how do you manage that? How do you address that with either with a corporate person that’s thinking about setting something up or a client, potential client that’s thinking about, I don’t even like client, a potential participant, whatever you would. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (17:41.783)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (17:54.638)
Participant, yeah, that’s how we call them. Well, that’s a very interesting question actually, Jason, and thank you. Our programs, all our programs, from two hour programs to a full week or three months programs, they all go through four major moments. And interestingly enough, the first one is slow down. So…

the first thing we ask of people is really to slow down. So whenever you say, I don’t want to be the slowest. Well, the first thing we’re going to ask of you is to be the slowest, please slow down. You know, because, you know, because we are overly obsessed with efficiency and productivity. and many of the most important things in life are not about being fast or productive or efficient, but

Jason Elkins (18:27.729)
I love that. I’m happy I asked this question. People need to hear this.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (18:50.082)
going deep, fully, being present, and that requires you to slow down. And we were not designed to drive cars at 200 kilometers per hour or flying planes at whatever. We were designed to walk at, I mean, two or three miles per hour. That’s it. That’s our natural.

Jason Elkins (19:11.663)
Right, because you were out looking for berries or nuts or game or something like that. And if you walk too fast, you probably just miss everything, right? You just, yeah, I’m starting to see how this is a good idea.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (19:16.299)
Exactly.

You’d miss all that. Yeah, exactly. So we really don’t encourage people to try to be fast. On the contrary, and we even do the deliberate exercise, which is now try to walk as slow as you can over there. people really struggle with that. But it kind of changes the focus from how can I not be the slowest to, am I being the fastest? So I need to slow down. I need to pace myself.

Jason Elkins (19:38.105)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (19:47.697)
Okay.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (19:50.136)
So, but anyway, I will take just the opportunity to say, so we always go through these four moments. And the first one is slow down. And the second one is reconnect. And again, reconnect, reconnect with yourself, with your speed, with whatever feels right for you. We always say the right pace is your pace. So don’t force yourself into a different pace. And when you invite people to reflect and actually you invite them either to have

individual reflection, so walking on their own and reflecting about whatever the prompt is there. Or you invite them to have a conversation with another participant about or one of the mentors. It rotates, it goes through everyone. When you start thinking deeply, usually you don’t walk very fast. You start slowing down naturally. So again, you kind of take the focus out of that.

Third moment is gain perspective. So look into the future, look into the future you would like to have, not just any future or not what’s going to happen, but actually if I can think about my future, if I can think of myself in one year, where do I want to be? What are the meaningful things that I really want to make sure are going to be there in one year? So how I want the relationship with my kids to be, how I want the relationship with my wife or my parents or…

my boss, my colleagues, the people working with me, how do I want my health to be? Where do I want to live? My planning. And by looking into the future again, you stop thinking about moving very fast because you’re just trying to gain perspective. So you want to be clear about where you’re looking. You’re not getting there yet. So only the last moment, which is take action, invites you to actually design an action plan.

Jason Elkins (21:41.979)
Hmm?

Nuno Santos Fernandes (21:48.558)
to move from where you are from your reality map today to that desired future. Now, in order to do that, again, you cannot be rushing. You need to start step by step from where you are now. And then you need to move really in incremental. And we are very clear about this. need to, usually the big changes don’t come from huge things you’re gonna change in your life. They come from the small things you change every day and you keep going.

Jason Elkins (22:16.677)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (22:18.124)
And so it’s always about this consistency, this more endurance than intensity. And this kind of flows naturally. Of course, for some people, this is extremely challenging. And for many people these days, this is a big challenge, but it is the design of our program. it’s maybe that’s, actually interesting insight you’re giving me that probably because we’re going a bit against the current.

it might be one of the things that really helps people to gain clarity because it kind of shifts the way you’re looking at life, right? Not the usual rush rush.

Jason Elkins (22:58.959)
love that response because you nailed it like almost to the point I’m imagining saying okay look the problem isn’t there’s not gonna be no problem with you being the slowest we’re gonna work on making sure you’re not the fastest and that’s gonna ease a lot of people’s concerns because they’re like okay I don’t have to worry about being you know the guy you know three miles behind everybody else you know

Nuno Santos Fernandes (23:09.078)
No. Yeah, exactly.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (23:22.655)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (23:23.375)
with blisters on my feet thinking, my gosh, I’m gonna miss dinner and everybody’s gonna be upset with me. It’s not that.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (23:27.47)
Never happened. Never happened. Actually, with many groups, we’ve had people walking very slow. And it’s actually an interesting also awareness, which is walking slower in the end uses more energy than walking faster because you end up having more time active. Because if you’re walking the same distance,

Jason Elkins (23:56.273)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (23:56.32)
If you take longer, you’re going to be up carrying your backpack or at the very least your own weight for longer if you’re walking slower. So if you’re walking at your natural steady pace, you’re going to get there faster and it’s actually less demanding. But for some people it’s really important to take longer because they really need to go through the process. And so we just allow for that. We don’t fight against that. And if for some reason someone is really struggling and you mentioned blisters.

Jason Elkins (24:16.592)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (24:21.264)
It’s.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (24:26.132)
Usually with good preparation, well, and preparation, it’s not nothing extreme. You don’t need to prepare months in advance. It’s just that you need to take care about your gear and you need to do a little bit of preparation before you go. A few weeks, make sure are comfortable and worn so they’re not brand new. It’s not a good idea to bring brand new and make sure your socks are good and you keep changing your socks not to get your feet soggy and wet and hot because that’s usually where blisters.

Jason Elkins (24:37.753)
Make sure the shoes that you got are comfortable. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (24:56.11)
happen. So you prevent blisters most of the time and they don’t happen for most people. But then, mean, again, it’s a process of the main thing is the reflection process. So then we always have also alternatives. This is not about punishing people or getting them suffering, you know, and going through pain. It’s about sometimes the internal pains, those are

Jason Elkins (24:56.155)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (25:02.673)
All

Jason Elkins (25:16.101)
Yeah.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (25:25.612)
the ones you really have to go through. And those can be tough, but…

Jason Elkins (25:25.969)
Yeah.

because we spent so much time avoiding things with phones or alcohol or really anything, I could list off so many things. when you just, I’m not oversimplifying it, but what comes to my mind, when you’re just kind of out having a walk and you don’t have those things and you just kind of have your thoughts, especially if you guys are prompting and providing, you know.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (25:33.262)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (25:38.904)
So many things,

Jason Elkins (25:57.937)
I guess prompting, I’m just going to say that. said something else interesting though, when I was listening to you, was like, it occurs to me that when I walk a lot, I travel alone, I don’t even have a car, everything I own is in my suitcase. So I tend to just walk around cities a lot, whether it’s to go to the bank or a coffee shop or whatever. But what I’ve noticed is I tend to walk pretty quick. And then in those moments where I’ve got a lot of things in my mind, I actually tend to like if it’s important, I’ve noticed that I do slow down.

It’s like, you know, something like if I if I need to work something out, if I’m thinking about something, I just find myself just kind of just wandering aimlessly with no like, you know, and slowing down and it feels like it works better for me. But I suspect I but I’ve never thought about it. It just kind of happens. So you probably need to help people do that. It sounds like to slow down a little bit. You know, you said another thing that came up is.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (26:37.614)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (26:46.488)
Here we go.

Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (26:58.085)
I know that like in acting where people need to learn scripts or not even necessarily learn the words but actually internalize the scripts, know, whether they’re a salesperson trying to internalize scripts or an actor or whatever, it’s really important to move the body. You know, I’ve been through a few things where they say, you know, don’t just sit on the couch and read the script over and over, you know, get up.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (27:08.302)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (27:21.998)
Move around.

Jason Elkins (27:23.939)
walk around, move around and that movement helps, somehow helps the body and the brain just kind of internalize those things and I’ve noticed I can learn things so much faster if I’m just walking around doing them. So it sounds like it’s basically the same what you guys have figured out.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (27:31.165)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (27:41.518)
Definitely. mean, yeah, well, we didn’t figure it out. We were using it. it’s, I you know, there’s the expression solvitura ambulando. So solve it by walking. And many, many thinkers, philosophers use walking to think and to make and to gain clarity. And actually, it’s these days you have a lot of

Jason Elkins (27:54.897)
okay.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (28:10.254)
science that can demonstrate the benefits of and actually just standing up and walking improves your attention. I think it’s staggering, but I’m going to say 30%, but I actually think it’s much more than that. But even 30%, it’s huge, right? So very simple things really have a huge impact in the way our brain functions. And for me, this is not science now. This is my opinion. Okay. But for me, that’s because that was our natural

Jason Elkins (28:23.077)
Yeah

Jason Elkins (28:31.748)
Yeah.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (28:39.86)
behavior as a species. So this thing of sitting at desks, it’s very new. It’s very new. mean, even if you just go to our grandparents’ generation, for most people, they would have active jobs. They would be moving around. They wouldn’t be sitting at a desk. For most people, there would be already a few, well, maybe 20, 30 % would be sitting at desks, but the majority would be walking. So this idea that everyone is sitting

Jason Elkins (28:51.803)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (28:55.825)
Hmm?

Nuno Santos Fernandes (29:07.638)
in front of a computer working. This is just, you know, we’re learning how to do this. I have doubts it is the best for us, at least for now. I don’t know about the future.

Jason Elkins (29:17.009)
I hear what you’re saying and you know, it’s not, it all kind of just makes sense if you think about it, because I’m thinking of like, well if I want to connect with my kid, what’s the best way to connect with my kid? It’s to go for a walk. It’s like, I think most people listening to this would be like, yeah, that makes sense. even, you know.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (29:34.318)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (29:40.697)
playing video games, yeah, does that, does your kid wanna play video games with you? Yeah, there’s a good chance they probably do. But it’s when you set aside all that stuff and go for a walk. That’s when, like I know with my son, cause he’s traveled with me quite a bit, we’ve spent a lot of time walking around in interesting places. And that’s where he starts sharing stories that I’ve never heard.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (29:48.494)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (29:55.726)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (30:01.669)
He’s like, dad, do remember that one time? And I’m like, yeah. And he said, well, I didn’t tell you, but this is what I did. I did something bad. Yeah. You know, and I’m like, but I feel like I want to tell you. I’m like, okay, great. Let’s go. And those things come up generally when we’re walking. And, and I know like relationship therapists will say, go for a walk with your spouse. Like one of the best things you could probably do is go for a, you know, half hour walk after dinner with your spouse every evening to.

Yeah, makes sense.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (30:31.554)
does wonders, I can testify to that. I don’t have the science to back this up, but actually, well, here’s the challenge if some researcher wants to pick this up. think that just as an hypothesis, the fact that whenever you’re walking with someone else, you already agreed on something, which is walking in the same direction at the same speed, you’re already agreeing on something.

Jason Elkins (30:55.633)
Nuno Santos Fernandes (31:00.034)
kind of, don’t know, I don’t know what it is, but it’s much easier to get in sync when you’re walking with someone and sync mentally to get into the same thought process, the same rhythm and the same openness. are a number of, again, science does have a lot of information to give us about that, that when we are walking with

with a wide horizon, our focus turns from the closed focus, so the focused on a specific target to a more wide awareness of reality. And that helps us feel much more relaxed because that means we’re safe. Everything is good. I can see my horizon and there isn’t a threat and I’m relaxed because if a threat comes up, I will immediately focus. And so that will tell my brain I need to be attentive and ready to react.

Jason Elkins (31:37.552)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (31:55.291)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (32:00.313)
which is not a good state for problem solving or futurizing or creativity, figuring out what you want to do with your life.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (32:00.653)
This is.

No, for creativity and by the way for well-being and for your health system because we’re not supposed to be stressed 24-7. Stress is a response, healthy response to a threat, to real or potential threat. So if you need to react to a challenge,

Jason Elkins (32:10.129)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (32:30.734)
then stress can be helpful, but we were not designed to have stress on a permanent basis. And the fact that we are permanently focusing is telling your brain, be on the alert. is something important here. And the interesting thing is that when you go into that more relaxed, more open, wide vision state of mind, it’s not that you’re less productive or less able to think.

You just think in a more relaxed and more open way. It’s actually when most of the most productive and most innovative thinking comes from. It’s not from the focus driven. Well, you know, the writer’s block, if the writer comes to the computer and just stares at the computer, nothing seems to come up. And then he just goes out for a walk and suddenly all these ideas come into his mind.

Jason Elkins (33:28.037)
Yeah.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (33:31.134)
We know all these things and just going back a bit to what you mentioned before, well, we didn’t find anything out. didn’t create anything new. Actually, people have been going on pilgrimages on long walks or on initial walks, walkabouts. I mean, this is something that exists in human cultures throughout the globe.

Jason Elkins (33:54.417)
Right, and though I want to acknowledge, when I say you figured it out, you figured out a way to help people, or to support people in their journeys and do it as something meaningful, as opposed to just sitting in a room thinking about it. yep, it’s pretty normal. That’s how things should be, but not doing anything with it. You guys did something with it. You created an interesting program. Yeah, it’s super cool.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (34:11.744)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (34:18.456)
Well, thank you, yes, I do think it’s, yeah.

Jason Elkins (34:23.727)
I also, because I’d heard at some point in the past how it’s like better to like if you’re having a conflict, not a, shouldn’t say conflict. Let’s say you want to have an important conversation with your partner. They say, you know, you shouldn’t sit across the table from each other. Face to face is not necessarily a good way to work things out. And I’ve heard, you know, if it’s got to be go for a walk would be obviously the appropriate thing to discuss. But even if it’s even

Nuno Santos Fernandes (34:44.814)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (34:53.457)
They say like in a car sometimes you can have more meaningful conversations in a car because you’re sitting side by side as opposed to, you know, face to face. It’s a little, you feel a little safer because it’s not maybe as intimidating and pressure filled. Whereas obviously taking a walk is a side by side thing. But also I’m just curious, like I just got this other idea in my head. I suspect that if you go back in time, you know, we talked about people walking around.

And I suspect if you’re walking through the savanna in Africa by yourself, you’re probably on a little bit more heightened state of alert because you’re completely responsible for catching and seeing everything that might be a danger. Whereas I imagine if you’re walking with a group of people or maybe at least even one other person, it probably provides a sense of safety subconsciously. Do you think? Is this something you’ve thought of probably or you think I’m crazy?

Nuno Santos Fernandes (35:46.022)
I’m sure it does. course, are. No, no, no, I think you’re right. I think we are a social species. mean, if you really think about human beings, the one thing that has allowed us to prosper and to develop is our capacity to cooperate and to actually be with each other and collaborate with each other. So definitely the fact that we are really a group of people gives us safety.

The fact that we are even just another person, it will also help us to feel safe and to feel more relaxed. And I think actually that when you just to connect to that idea, when you go to that open view, so that wide view, more relaxed, it is not less attentive. It is scanning for potential dangers. It’s just that it’s telling us.

I’m scanning and I’m not finding dangers. you know, so that that feels safe because you’re aware you’re attentive. You’re not disconnected. You were actually paying attention, but you’re just paying attention and you’re letting your, let’s say the the back office is working on making sure everything is fine. And he’s just telling you it’s fine. There is no problem coming. And if some problem will come, then it will tell you and then you will.

Jason Elkins (37:09.275)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (37:12.891)
Be attentive and pay attention. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (37:12.977)
time to shift and shift into a different different mindset. Do you guys take because I suspect and I think I even kind of heard you say it there’s moments for contemplation where maybe somebody in maybe your prompt is to walk alone I don’t know to walk alone to be with yourself and then there’s other moments where it makes sense to

Nuno Santos Fernandes (37:29.592)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (37:35.875)
to maybe connect with somebody else, whether it’s a mentor or somebody else in the group. So is that right? It sounds like you guys are conscious about there’s alone time and then there’s together time and because there’s benefits to both, right?

Nuno Santos Fernandes (37:42.25)
Exactly. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Definitely. so essentially we have group moments where the whole group is together and that can be where we give a briefing which covers basic things like, we will start walking in five minutes and we will be walking on a longer, let’s say we will have to walk for 10 minutes along the road. So please be attentive of cars and you know, but then it invites you for a prompt and

Jason Elkins (38:12.549)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (38:16.522)
Usually at the slow down step, as I already referred to the beginning, we might ask you to connect to very simple things. So try to pay attention to what you can hear or pay attention to what you can see, what you can smell, how the ground beneath your feet feels. And connecting you to your body and asking you to be attentive to that really helps you to slow down, obviously, which is the goal. But also to be present, to be fully

aware of your body and of where you are and kind of take the attention a little bit away from the usual worries, problems, concerns, stresses of life and just focus on that moment being present there, being aware. And that just by itself gives you a huge relief if you really go into that. That is something that you will do alone. Of course, it doesn’t make sense to do in pairs.

Jason Elkins (39:00.549)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (39:16.012)
But then let’s say, okay, if you think a little bit about, let’s say by the end of the program, you’re thinking of your action plan. And one of the things we invite people to do is when they decide on some actions to identify what are challenges and solutions, because typically our greatest enemies are ourselves. So when you look back at your life, if you look, there will be patterns and usually the sabotager

Jason Elkins (39:44.717)
And you’re there. You’re there for every one of them. I remember.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (39:46.336)
You know, you were always there. You can try to point the finger, but probably you need to point it in to you.

Jason Elkins (39:53.967)
I remember a phrase, it’s like, wherever you go, there you are. So, you know, for people that tend to run away from things, their problems tend to follow them. Yeah, okay.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (39:57.684)
Exactly. So as we invite people to do this, you think about, imagine for me, I hate going to the gym. I want to be fit. want to be to, you know, preserve my physical capacity and all that, but I hate going to the gym. It’s just horrible. So, and I know I’ve been one of those perfect gym clients which pay every month and never goes there.

Jason Elkins (40:27.089)
and won’t withdraw their plan. They’ll keep paying monthly because if I cancel my plan, then I’m bad person and I can’t follow through. So I’m just gonna keep paying next month.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (40:27.5)
So I don’t want to be that one.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (40:33.428)
Yeah, in the belief that. Yeah. Yeah, but so, so that wasn’t helping me. That was not working for me. imagine if I’m going through, I’m having this, I’m aware of this challenge. I know myself, I know I can enroll and then, sorry, there’s a cat jumping here on the table. So it was not supposed to be here, but it’s okay. So.

Jason Elkins (40:58.426)
you

Nuno Santos Fernandes (41:02.922)
Imagine I’m going through this and I’m saying, I’m really, I don’t know what to do because I’ve enrolled the gym. I’ve, I’ve tried to do it. I put it in my agenda, but then, you know, I just don’t do it. And if I have this conversation with someone else, very likely that’s that person will give, will give me something obvious and say, well, why don’t you get a personal trainer that goes to your home? It might feel more expensive, but actually.

Jason Elkins (41:22.42)
huh.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (41:31.168)
If you actually do the sports, do the activity, it’s much cheaper than paying for not doing. you know, so having a conversation with someone else can be very helpful. And I’m giving you kind of this anecdotal example, but in reality, it’s more than that, because whenever you put your thoughts into words, you are forced to organize them. So if I have to formulate something to

convey to you, need to organize it and put it out in a clear, perceivable way. And that will force me to organize. And you can hear yourself. So yeah, and sometimes it’s already there and you’re speaking it out and you’re, I see it. But then there is this magic thing, which is if the other person is listening deeply.

Jason Elkins (42:07.011)
and then you hear it, you can even hear it, right? You can hear yourself. You’re like, shoot.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (42:28.12)
Two things can happen. One thing is the person is listening to me, but actually will be seeing herself in what I’m saying because many things we’re all humans. We all have the same weaknesses or similar ones at least. But then there’s something else which I can just mirror it back to you. And I can say, well, did you say you’re paying to the gym for two years and you haven’t set your foot there and you…

You think that’s okay. So, you know, again, I’m coming with this very basic example, but it’s the kind of thing where sometimes just listening to someone saying, well, did you, was this what you told me? Forces you to gain awareness and to say, And, and do I want to do something about it? And then it’s up to me. I might say, no, I’m just going to keep paying the gym and that’s fine.

Jason Elkins (43:00.347)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (43:15.127)
Ooh, yes, that is what I’ve been doing. You’re right. And yeah.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (43:26.858)
Or I can say, no, well, I really want to change this. can you help me? And I’m having someone by your side, even if that person is not going to give you the solution, because most solutions we have inside ourselves, it can help you to find the way to the solution. And that is.

Jason Elkins (43:43.845)
Well, and just the questions, right? I think the power of questions is so maybe I’m having that conversation with you or out on a walk and you’re, yeah, I’ve been paying for the gym for two years. you know, so maybe I, what is it, you know, what is it that you like? I mean, I don’t know. When you signed up for the gym, what did you imagine? Or what is it you dislike the most about the gym? And it could, you know, you might realize, my gosh, maybe it’s just cause.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (43:46.666)
Yeah, definitely.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (44:10.862)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (44:11.535)
I keep thinking I should go in the afternoon or maybe I need a buddy. Maybe I need a workout buddy. You know, maybe I’m lonely at the gym and I feel, you know, like there’s all these younger people around me that have amazing bodies. And so maybe I just need a workout partner, you know, and you might not even understand. Yeah. So that’s

Nuno Santos Fernandes (44:20.27)
Yeah, it should be. Of course.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (44:26.604)
Yeah, all this, yeah. all those and many times what a conversation with someone else can give you is show you your blind spots because sometimes it’s just there in front of you but you’re actually not seeing it. And it’s not because you don’t want to, it’s because it’s your blind spot. That’s it. You’re not just aware of it. And suddenly someone just tells you something that reminded me of an interesting situation with a…

a top executive, he was really frustrated because he kept moving away from budgeting and they keep giving him budgeting. And he said, but what’s wrong with this guys? Why do they keep giving me this? I hate because I always fail. And someone said, well, but if they keep giving it to you, probably you don’t fail that much. You’re probably pretty good because that’s why they give you that.

Jason Elkins (45:16.581)
Hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (45:25.078)
And he was like, boom. I’m bad. But the reality was the reverse. He was obviously good. Otherwise, he wouldn’t keep getting the job. So yeah.

Jason Elkins (45:28.625)
Because his story in his head is, I’m bad at that. And somebody’s, but how, yeah.

Jason Elkins (45:42.097)
Well, it’s that it creates a, I guess they call it cognitive dissonance where it’s like, there’s the reality and then there’s the story in your head. sometimes when you’re faced to, when you’re forced to face it, geez, either my story is wrong or the reality is wrong. They can’t be both wrong. And I’ve learned that it’s usually the story I’ve learned to when I’m, when I’m really,

Nuno Santos Fernandes (45:46.902)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (45:56.078)
What do you think?

Jason Elkins (46:05.443)
you know, like in a conversation with someone like I have this story in my head. I just want to put it out. This is a story in my head that this is what’s going on. Can you help me edit that story? Or is it or is it right? You know, it’s kind of good way to approach approach those things, I think, but.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (46:22.572)
Yeah, well, definitely that reminds me of an interesting expression that is, well, allegedly something goes like, that guy lies like an eyewitness, meaning that eyewitnesses lie a lot. And they actually do because usually if you ask, did you see that car crash? And people say, yes, I did.

Jason Elkins (46:40.145)
Mm-hmm

Nuno Santos Fernandes (46:51.256)
So when did you start looking at it? Well, I heard the crash and I looked. So you didn’t actually see the crash, but naturally you created a narrative inside your mind that made sense out of what you saw. that’s exactly, we’re wired for that. Yeah. We’re not lying. We’re not deliberately lying, but actually our brain just creates this narrative that makes sense.

Jason Elkins (46:55.579)
So you didn’t see it.

Jason Elkins (47:03.127)
Mm-hmm, because we got if we got to fill in the gaps to you know, they’re our brain can’t deal with gaps So we fill in the gaps. I think it was Malcolm. Yeah

Nuno Santos Fernandes (47:20.714)
And it makes reality fit into that narrative now.

Jason Elkins (47:25.295)
I saw, I don’t know in Portugal if you have the tooth fairy, but we have the tooth fairy when I was growing up. And I saw the tooth fairy. was nine, probably nine or so. I saw the tooth fairy and I was, I had like seen her wings. I saw it all. And I told everybody that I saw the tooth fairy described what she looked like and, and just believed it 110%.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (47:30.884)
Yeah

Of course you did.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (47:41.614)
You

Jason Elkins (47:52.537)
And then at some point a little later on life when I learned some, not everything is what you think it is. I remember when I learned some other people, other figures weren’t quite what I thought they were. The first thing I said was, well, what about the tooth fairy? Because the tooth fairy is real. Because I saw the tooth fairy. And it was a good lesson actually for me. You know, it took me a few years to really learn it, but it was a good lesson for me like,

Nuno Santos Fernandes (48:06.03)
Because that one I saw.

Jason Elkins (48:19.169)
is really interesting because you know and then yeah it’s it’s pretty cool. Okay now we I got to figure out how the heck did you get into this because I hear a lot of personal development maybe I’d use words like coaching, meditation, whatever I just those are just words the story in my head so help me edit that story you know how

Nuno Santos Fernandes (48:21.089)
It is fascinating.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (48:36.43)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (48:41.125)
Like, let’s go back, not just to when you join walking mentorship, but like, let’s go back to your childhood a little bit and just try and figure out a little bit about you that kind of, I get that, aha, now I understand why he’s doing this type of thing. So what was going on when you were a kid?

Nuno Santos Fernandes (48:47.768)
Hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (48:52.567)
You

Well, thank you for that question. That is actually, I think, even insightful for me, as you were mentioning it. So I was a very introvert kid, very turned into my own thoughts. You could say reflective, yes, but but definitely very introvert. I so I had

several people, close people, family people who were very intelligent, very bright people who were very unsuccessful at being happy. people that you would say should have the intellectual skills to be very successful and lead happy lives, but some of them were even, you know, formally successful, but were unhappy, the same. And that

was always something that stayed inside my mind and I couldn’t figure it out. I couldn’t make sense out of it. How come intelligent people are not successful and happy? Well, I grew up, of course, and as you learned about the tooth fairy, I’ve learned that these things are not necessarily connected. so I’m…

As I grew up, I was always curious and interested in different things, but I had no clue what I wanted to do. So when I was deciding what to go to the university, had basically no clue what I wanted to do. So a colleague of mine told me she was going to study advertising. And I thought, advertising, yeah, working with models, that must be cool.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (50:43.822)
I went for advertising. It was as simple as that. yeah, well, yeah, 17. Yeah. So that made sense back then. And of course, then I actually went through the learnings and it was very useful, but I definitely didn’t want to do that. I came out and it was, well, it wasn’t, I think what I imagined. So basically I

Jason Elkins (50:48.381)
I can understand that. That’s a reasonable decision when you’re 19, 18, whatever.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (51:14.794)
I started, I still started a marketing business during my, my university course, great failure. So great learning. And then I came out and I was kind of upset, upset or angry at people somehow. And I decided, no, I love dogs much more than people. So I started a dog hotel and I said, I’m going to turn my back on people and just focus on the dogs, which is going to be much better.

And of course, a dog hotel depends on clients that are willing to pay for putting their dogs at the hotel. So yeah, people are not so easy. So well, but they still need to pay, know, and dogs don’t have a lot of money. so quickly enough, I had to, you know, figure it out and, and, and really realize, as much as I could find people.

Jason Elkins (51:50.885)
dogs are easy. It’s the people. There’s still a people part. If the dogs could just walk themselves there and check in, it would have been a perfect plan.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (52:13.262)
upsetting and sometimes frustrating. And I can still find that, but also fascinating and deeply lovable. So that kind of helped me move. well, then I’m going to jump a little bit because otherwise I would be here for the next four hours, which doesn’t make much sense and would be very interesting for the people. then while I worked through several different areas, still actually, I still have that business at Dog Hotel.

And I still love dogs, but I also love people. And I then worked at a non-governmental agency, environmental non-governmental agency. worked, I had some veterinary things. I worked in many different things. Essentially as an entrepreneur, very few stints working for other people. I did some

real estate development, which was something very, I found fascinating, very interesting, but not really my, you know, not where I was happy. And I’m just gonna make sense to, just to make sense of the question.

Jason Elkins (53:19.985)
Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this though. Okay, well, before we move on, I want to, I heard you say entrepreneurial stuff, very self, you know, didn’t really like people, entrepreneur, like probably didn’t want to work for people. Kind of like to have that, that, you know, depending on yourself type of thing. I guess what I want to ask is when you were younger, if you were to look back and I know we can’t change anything and I know you’ve got stories in your head that you’ve created.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (53:35.978)
definitely not.

Jason Elkins (53:49.051)
But when you were younger, if you were surrounded by people that were a little bit more, I don’t know, maybe outgoing or encouraging, I don’t want to put words in your mouth because you didn’t say anything about them not being outgoing. You just said that they weren’t happy. And I heard you say that intelligent people, and I think this is, I think a lot of people would agree on this. A lot of people that are pretty smart have a really hard time figuring out.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (54:05.326)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (54:14.671)
life. So where I’m going with this is if you’d had people when you were younger that were happy, do you think that that would have made your earlier years much easier? Do you think you would have went a different direction? What impact do think that would have had on you?

Nuno Santos Fernandes (54:15.65)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (54:34.862)
speculation, calls for speculation as they would say in court, but I will speculate. will indulge. Well, probably yes, but I don’t think my life would be more interesting because of that. It would probably be different. But the thing is that the experiences I had and certainly the challenges I went through and some of them were with very close people.

Jason Elkins (54:36.142)
It is. It’s complete speculation.

Jason Elkins (54:49.817)
Yeah.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (55:05.322)
family members very close, specifically my parents and my father specifically. Those were very impactful, of course, and they made me very aware of certain aspects of the human experience. as you were saying, how intelligent and capable people can be and successful and very unhappy. Not only not happy, but actually very unhappy.

And that always stuck with me. So jumping a few years ahead, one day a friend of mine gave me a book. Well, he had read it and he thought, I think you’re going to like this book. And it was Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goldman. Because there are two Daniels in this area. So I think I’m giving the right one. anyway.

Jason Elkins (55:54.558)
I’ve read the book, but I think, yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (56:02.254)
And Emotional Intelligence, it’s a very simple, relatively small book, but I recommend anyone to read it, especially if you ever feel this questioning that I have, how come intelligent people are not that successful or that happy? And it really helped me to make sense of some things. And of course, there are, if you look at it today, the book has been surpassed by many.

more knowledge that has been developed, a lot of research, a lot of new things. But let’s say that the fundamentals there make full sense, which is we don’t need only, let’s say, the rational, the Carthesian intelligence, we need a number of other competencies, social, relational, self-management, awareness of others, empathy, all these things that are as important or even more important to your happiness than actually

being very intelligent. And that made me think back there and then that it would be really interesting if we could help people develop those capacities, because it’s a shame that people that would have huge potential are not being able to express that potential, are not being, are not enjoying their lives fully, because if maybe they could be helped to find that. And

Jason Elkins (57:26.449)
Well, maybe just even just being a because a lot of really smart people, I believe, are brought up being told you’re smart. That’s like probably the worst thing you can say to a kid, I think, you know, is, my God, you’re so smart. You can figure it out. You’re so smart. You’re going to you can do anything you’re going to be. You could be an astronaut. You could be a lawyer or whatever. Oh, so then you’ve got this kid grows up thinking my entire identity is around my.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (57:34.862)
Yeah, of course. Yeah.

You can do anything you want. That’s the biggest lie you can, yeah.

Jason Elkins (57:53.521)
intelligence, my, you know, not emotional intelligence, but my, how smart I am. So the first time I run into something hard and I fail at it, it’s a total identity disaster. It’s like, oh my gosh, I’m not as smart as my parents thought I was. And, oh, I’m going to fail in life. What do you think?

Nuno Santos Fernandes (57:54.274)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

No, my intellect, yes.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (58:05.55)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (58:12.75)
I think it’s worse than that. It’s not, I’m not as smart as I’m not, despite being smart, I fail. that I think it’s even, so yeah, so why, how come? And again, if I’m so smart, things should be easy and then you need to deal with challenges and difficulties and then you need to be resilient and you need to persevere.

Jason Elkins (58:25.573)
Yeah. So what else do I have?

Nuno Santos Fernandes (58:41.718)
And you need to keep going. I mean, there are so many things. This is obviously a very, I think, very meaningful conversation to have, especially these days where we have this, I would say, the pandemic of kids with anxiety and feeling miserable. And, well, I’m not even going to go into the ugliest side of that, which really needs to concern us. And so to connect to your original question,

what led me to be attentive and to be open to this, let’s say, issues of personal development was this questioning, how can we create conditions so that people, and actually at the beginning I thought, how can we create conditions so that kids can work on that early on so that, you know, in their future lives they will be in better, much more happy circumstances. And

Jason Elkins (59:37.915)
save them a lot of time and pain and effort and misery.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (59:41.206)
Well, and the whole society, would say, because then we all improve with that. And as I was going through this awareness, it happened that my wife invited me to go walk the Camino de Santiago. So she arrived home one day and she just said, look, I have good and bad news. I’m going to walk the Camino de Santiago and you’re coming with me. And I said, yeah, and what’s the bad news? I thought…

Jason Elkins (01:00:09.712)
Good for you,

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:00:10.584)
fine, that’s gonna be fun. And so I went on this walk, not aware it was a mentorship program. It was actually one of the pilot programs from Walking Mentorship that the founder, as well, my business partner was hosting and guiding and facilitating. I had no clue, I just thought I’m gonna walk the Camino. Okay, that’s fun, that’s gonna be great.

Jason Elkins (01:00:32.049)
She didn’t bother to tell you about all the introspection and personal development work. She’s smart. Because there’s a lot of guys that as soon as I said, there’s going to be mentors and you’re going to work, figure out what you want to do with your life and connect with your deepest, darkest secrets and emotions. You’d be like, yeah, have a fun trip sweetheart.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:00:36.648)
No, no, no, no, she kept it simple. Yeah, she knows how to play me and yeah. no, no, no, no, no, I’m out. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. So I think she was, she’s very smart emotionally and not only, but emotionally definitely. And so she invited me for that and we went on that walk and it really allowed me to make decisions, important, relevant, impactful decisions that I had been postponing for

decades. And not only making the decisions, but actually feeling okay, feeling comfortable, absolutely at peace with my decisions. And that allowed me to… yeah. And I really, I was struggling with that. That meant disappointing people I love and people I respect.

Jason Elkins (01:01:39.048)
That’s a hard spot to get to.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:01:53.122)
And that was a threshold to cross, but then it was such a huge, a powerful change in my life. So it really allowed me to move from kind of, let’s say, the life that had happened to me to the life I was choosing for myself. And that is, you know, fundamental and really deeply impactful.

And just to be clear, not to say that my life ended and then they lived happily ever after. It’s not like that. Of course not. Life keeps going and the challenges keep coming and everything. But you are more intentional. are, at least you are, I won’t say at the driver’s seat, but you are at the helm, which again, you go with the current, you don’t really control exactly where you’re going. The sea still has a lot to do with…

Jason Elkins (01:02:31.034)
Right.

Jason Elkins (01:02:44.913)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:02:53.014)
what you’re doing, but at least you are at the helm and you can at least try to steer something in the direction that you want. And so that was like my entrance into or my awareness of walking mentorship. And then, well, I just kept coming for programs because I had so much enjoyed it, I mean, I wouldn’t go.

to every program, obviously it wouldn’t make sense, but I kept coming year after year. so eventually I naturally joined. mean, then actually it was interesting in 2000. So this was beginning of 2016. And then in 2000, the end of 2017, think João invited me to co-create a program specifically for parents and kids.

We always have this discussion. He says, I suggested it. I think he suggested it. So, well, again, our brains are creating narratives. We don’t know. Yeah, just, yeah, it just came up. So, and we created a program for parents and kids, which we will be running again this year. We have been running every year ever since. And…

Jason Elkins (01:03:53.681)
You

Jason Elkins (01:03:57.723)
You guys run a walk and it just happened.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:04:17.742)
The collaboration and the work was so natural, so easy that then in 2020, Jero invited me to actually join as a partner at Walking Mentorship. My other businesses allowed for that, so I was not at an operational level. So I could really step out of that. And it was kind of…

Okay, finally I know what I want to do when I grow up, you know, so it was, I was almost 50 so easy.

Jason Elkins (01:04:52.401)
That is so cool. Nuno, Nuno, you mind?

I’m still trying to figure it out myself, honestly. Maybe I need to go on one of your programs. I guess, I don’t know, but I’m thinking some of the listeners might want me to ask you this, and I think I definitely want to ask you this, and we can figure out, we can navigate how you want to respond, because I don’t want to get too personal, but you, early on in the conversation, you kind of mentioned the four stages, and the third stage, I’m going to call it the vision stage, I don’t remember exactly what you called it, but what is the vision?

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:04:59.926)
Yeah.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:05:16.366)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:05:21.07)
Gain perspective.

Jason Elkins (01:05:23.217)
Yeah, and then there’s the, okay, here’s the game plan. So even without telling us what your vision was or what your game plan was, if you went back to that time and remembered, hopefully if you do remember what your vision was, what you came out, what the plan was, does it align with what you ended up doing miraculously? Or was it something totally different that then kind of shifted around? I would just love to know. Or was that first walk was like,

anybody that could get inside your head, but you’re like, yeah, he’s going to be a a few years now. He’s going to be a partner. what, what can you tell us about that?

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:06:00.686)
Well, first I will share an expression, a friend of mine, a coach, whom I love, she always says, when you set yourself clear goals, then the universe conspires with you to make them happen. So I really believe there is some, I’m not going to go into the mystical aspect of it. I just feel that when you have clear goals, generally things tend to align. Doesn’t mean you get exactly what you wanted.

Jason Elkins (01:06:17.841)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:06:29.292)
But you’re probably going to get closer to there than if you just have no clue. But back then, my main vision about the future or my vision exercise, as you called it, essentially had to do with taking a lot of burdens and a lot of weight off my shoulders.

A lot of responsibility I had taken on for other people that I shouldn’t be taking on. Let’s say I don’t blame them at all. I blame myself and I know it has to do with the way I behave. It is still something I am working on. So although I did solve a significant number of situations there back then,

Jason Elkins (01:07:25.754)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:07:27.096)
this characteristic of mine did not change. So I keep working on it. So this is something I think we need to be honest about, which is, I don’t think there is a magical one that solves problems. You just become more aware and you become more competent at dealing with your characteristics, which, you know, we like, people like to talk about strengths and weaknesses. I believe we have characteristics that can

Jason Elkins (01:07:30.235)
Yeah.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:07:56.608)
appear as strengths or weaknesses depending on context, on intensity, on how you have control or not over them.

Jason Elkins (01:08:07.217)
Right, I remember hearing kind of along the lines of these things, you know, are they serving you? You know, is it okay, I am, you know, I like to sleep in, just an example, I like to sleep in the morning, okay, great, is that serving you? If it’s serving you, fine. If it’s not, then maybe we need to figure out, you know, find something else that serves you better as opposed to, you know, strengths and weaknesses, because you’re right, because one person’s weakness.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:08:13.908)
Exactly.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:08:21.838)
Fine. Yeah, why not? Exactly.

Jason Elkins (01:08:36.227)
I mean, maybe also their strength, just depending on like you said, like context and stuff like that.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:08:41.516)
look, a driven person can be a workaholic, can be seen as a bully, be, you know, can be like narrow focused or narrow minded. But but then also a driven person can get a lot of work done can be really, you know, so we really need to look at characteristics and understand how they

if they are working for you, if they are really producing good results into your life, or if they are causing you damage. And then work with that and understand if you need to, you this thing I was sharing about myself. what I try to do is to be more conscientious about it. So I try to make decisions about it. So yes, I do. I am willing to take certain responsibilities for my kids, certainly.

Jason Elkins (01:09:37.499)
Mm-hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:09:38.378)
shared with my wife, for sure. My mother is aging. Yes, of course, I’m willing to take some responsibilities, but am I fully responsible for any of these persons? I’m not. Even if I wanted to be, I couldn’t. And so the balance is there. How can you share the burden? Yes, be helpful, be there, but then keep in mind that you are responsible for yourself.

Jason Elkins (01:10:05.669)
also live your life. Yeah, you’ve got to live your life. And if you’re if you’re so busy taking care of and being responsible for everybody else and ignoring yourself, it’s actually kind of messed up because then they get a version of you that’s pissed off and grouchy and or, you know, passive aggressive. And have you read the book? No, no more Mr. Nice guy.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:10:07.872)
and then everyone else.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:10:22.006)
Well…

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:10:29.1)
I haven’t. I haven’t.

Jason Elkins (01:10:29.265)
I think it’s more about dating, about how men interact in relationships and all this stuff. It’s not about being a jerk, but anyway, for some reason the thought came to my head.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:10:38.84)
You

But I will share this from my, and that didn’t came up in that first walk, but one of the questions we ask is what is most important? And we invite you to create kind of this podium of, you know, hierarchical. So one thing is most important than anything else. And I used to put my family up there and now I put taking care of myself because if I don’t take care of myself, I’m not there to take care of anyone else. So.

Jason Elkins (01:11:06.372)
Yeah. You’re not taking care of them. huh.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:11:12.174)
The answer is very easy, but it’s always a challenge for myself. I always find it challenging to say no, I need to take care of myself first so I can put on your oxygen mask before helping other passengers. Otherwise you’re gonna pass out and you’re not gonna help anyone.

Jason Elkins (01:11:27.057)
Yeah.

I think I think you and I have read a lot of books in common and have been exposed to some of these things I’m not gonna say that I’m doing a well a great job incorporating them into my life because there’s still a lot of things that don’t serve me that I that I continue to to accept right but anyway what a a fascinating conversation we’ve discussed a bunch of different I know we could probably do five or six more like episodes on

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:11:45.058)
me too.

Jason Elkins (01:11:59.557)
personal development, psychology, and all this stuff, but I love the way you’re approaching it. Because I’ve been involved in some…

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:12:01.42)
Definitely.

Jason Elkins (01:12:07.629)
know, programs in the past or personal development programs and have been through, it sounds like maybe some similar processes about, you know, the vision, getting clear on the vision and, you know, to where you can taste it and smell it and feel it and really, really get it built into your body. But I love that you guys are doing some of that stuff. I’m not saying that’s exactly what you’re doing, but that you’re incorporating this into.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:12:17.422)
Hmm.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:12:23.534)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (01:12:31.473)
a walk in the nature. mean, how cool is that? As opposed to a conference room somewhere or a group zoom call or whatever, you know, there’s a lot of different ways to go through programs.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:12:38.286)
I will not judge, but I definitely prefer to be out walking than sitting in a conference room. Actually, I will tell you something. If it was technically possible, I would prefer to be walking while recording this podcast. Unfortunately, that wouldn’t probably work very well on the end result, so people wouldn’t understand anything. we’ve tried it. Yeah, we’ve tried it. It doesn’t work.

Jason Elkins (01:12:46.666)
yeah, I love that.

Jason Elkins (01:12:56.653)
I agree.

Jason Elkins (01:13:06.043)
Well, you know that I’m happy to mention that because that’s something we didn’t touch on when I introduced you is you guys have a podcast. So that was part of the other fun of this for me is you’ve got a podcast. So why don’t you pitch the podcast real quick? I shouldn’t say pitch it, but just tell our listeners, you know, just make it clear for them so they can go find it. Let’s do that.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:13:12.62)
Yeah.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:13:25.986)
Well, thank you for that and for the opportunity. The podcast is, you can find it on our webpage, walkingmentorship.com. And it’s called Keep Walking With Me. And essentially we’ve invited people we found interesting and we kind of went on a conversation. Well, similar to the one we’re having now. Yeah, exactly.

Jason Elkins (01:13:52.507)
kind of, it’s a good bottle. I love your bottle. That’s a that’s a really good idea.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:13:55.81)
So we just kind of follow whatever we’re curious about and try to put that out there available for people to check it out. And I mean, we’ve talked with people who do similar work to what we do, but then with people who, researchers, writers, sports people, I mean, you can find a bit of everything there. I mean, just take a look and see what calls you.

If you just listen a bit, you see if it interests you. We always have fun.

Jason Elkins (01:14:29.857)
I’m interested already after this conversation. mean, anybody that’s listening to this, that just like, this is really interesting stuff. It sounds like there’s more of that available on your show. And you also mentioned that you tried doing the walking and record the podcast at the same time. It’s a brilliant idea, I also appreciate the technical challenges.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:14:40.685)
Definitely.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:14:44.865)
We did.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:14:50.624)
I will tell you, we tried really hard and we just felt it was not fair on our guests. First of all, it’s, yeah, you know, they would have, we would have great guests with really amazing answers that deserve to be well listened to, but then you had trouble with the sound, you had trouble with noises, you had trouble with, you know, and so we just felt it.

Jason Elkins (01:14:58.321)
Yep.

Jason Elkins (01:15:18.417)
It’s a whole production. The only way I could see that, you guys have thought about it a lot more than I have. I haven’t really thought about it at all. it’s, it’s like, you almost have to do it like a video with a video team and a little lavalier mics and, but then you got to do, oh, we missed that shot. We got to do it again. yeah, that’s a, which is.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:15:33.632)
And you need to, yeah.

And then that loses the flow, right? Because I think when this is fun because we’re just following what is calling our attention and not really following the script. And then if you do it again, it’s not going to be as spontaneous. So, you know, in the end, okay, we’ll sacrifice a little bit and we’ll sit here for a while and have a beautiful talk anyway. So.

Jason Elkins (01:15:53.115)
That’s…

Jason Elkins (01:16:00.923)
Yeah, that’s that’s thing going on the walk is great, but it’s when you try to capture it through microphones and cameras and like you’re not going to do that on your your your. I don’t know. What do you call them? Your walks? What do you call like some tour operators would call it a departure, a an expedition or whatever. Programs, yeah, yeah, OK, you mentioned that. So.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:16:23.404)
Well, we call them programs. Yeah, programs, yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:16:28.549)
But it’s, yeah, you’re not gonna be running around trying to film that stuff for your program. I mean, maybe get some cool photos along the way, whatever, but that totally diminishes the whole point of the entire thing. So I get it completely.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:16:40.522)
No, yeah, we don’t produce. just, we do when we go on on our programs, we do take pictures and make sometimes we make movies, know, videos of what we’re doing, but really not not not capturing conversations, just, know, the the spirit of the thing. So

Jason Elkins (01:16:58.543)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess I did want to ask you, you mentioned scripting and I understand that as kind of, okay, well, here’s an exercise we’re going to do that’s going to help us tap into whatever we’re trying to whatever we’re trying to accomplish. But I actually just wanted to ask you, do any of these trips involve camping, building fires, repelling, ropes courses, any of that stuff? I just feel like I need to ask that question. Okay.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:17:25.23)
No, no, no, no. So they’re quite, let’s say civil in the sense they’re quite accessible walks that anyone able to walk, I would say 10 miles can do. We do usually a little bit more than that per day, but can vary. And we usually don’t do very extreme stuff.

because we want to make it accessible to a large number of people. Also because people that are more interested in self-development usually are not 20 or 30 year olds, they’re more like 40 or 50 or even more. Yeah, so probably you could narrow a bit your…

Jason Elkins (01:17:57.809)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (01:18:11.025)
Like you and I.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:18:21.262)
your clientele if you really make it too extreme. I personally really enjoy some, I love rock climbing, rockpelling, I love cold water, so I do like some, a little bit more extreme things, but I think that’s a very personal choice. so…

Jason Elkins (01:18:41.231)
Yeah, and it doesn’t sound like you need to do those things to accomplish the goals you guys are accomplishing. So yeah, all right. Very cool. We discussed a bunch of stuff before we wrap up. We’ve gone over a little bit. So I appreciate you spending more time with us. before we wrap up, there a good is there anything I forgot to ask you? You wish I would have asked you or anything you want to make sure our listeners know before we wrap up.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:18:46.646)
No.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:18:54.911)
I’m enjoying myself.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:19:04.238)
that’s… You caught me off guard there. Well, we definitely could keep going.

Jason Elkins (01:19:08.849)
I guess we covered everything. I know we could keep going. I just want to make sure I didn’t end the conversation and then you say, you know Jason, I really wanted to talk about this. But if there’s something, they’re great. If not, that’s okay too.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:19:20.782)
Well, I will say something which is a bit of a pitch, but not really, which is I really believe these programs are… So I think they are not for everyone at every moment of their lives, but I think everyone goes through moments where these programs are necessary. Well…

ours or others. mean, I’m not saying this is the only way. Of course, there are many ways to explore your reality map and to look into the future and to try to really be intentional about your life. But I do think it is important for people to do that reflection and to be open to if they find that moment, if they find themselves in that moment where they feel

this is really an opportunity and kind of a pivotal moment or I need to make important decisions or I’m feeling just that I’m going with the flow but not really going where I want to go. It’s really important to decide that and maybe address something you touched before, which is we do have more women joining our programs than men, which doesn’t come as a surprise.

but I really wish more men would join because I really think it can be tremendously impactful and tremendously useful, namely for our enjoyment of our own lives. So I really think we should be more open to this. And my business partner, the founder of Walking Mentorship likes to say that,

these are mentoring programs for skeptics. So we don’t make trust falls. don’t, you know, we’re not very, let’s say we don’t ask for a big leap of faith. And you’re basically free to decide how much you want to share and how much you want to be, you know, a participant in the group dynamics and all that. So that’s in your hands, but

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:21:40.768)
your own process that’s up to you and and definitely the more you give the more you receive the more you really open into this processes the more you can gain from them so i definitely i i think i’m i became a big advocate for personal development and and and if you can do it outdoors definitely it’s something worthwhile yeah well actually we will be joining if you allow me we will be joining

Jason Elkins (01:22:03.217)
great place to do it. Okay, go ahead.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:22:10.954)
super interesting event in Henley Business School, which will be now in June, which is Nature Connected Coaching Live, which is basically a gathering of people working in this area. this is, we’re not loonies anymore, so there are more people doing the same. we don’t feel the crazy ones, or the only crazy ones at least.

Jason Elkins (01:22:28.337)
You’re not loonies anymore. I get it. It’s super, super cool. Now, but of course, another question did pop into my mind when you mentioned that it’s most typically women are maybe more inclined to sign up and that you’d like to see more men. So the question that came up because you said you went with your wife the first time I went through.

fairly intense leadership type of coaching, you know, coaching program at one point. And they said, yeah, you and your partner should go, but not together, not on the same departure. Let’s call it the same departure because sometimes people are more comfortable opening up if like, you know, if you’re talking to a guy and he’s like, yeah, you should go with your wife. And and during the course of the five days, you’re going to open up and share all this stuff with everybody in the group. That’s going to sound very intimidating.

probably even more so he might be more inclined to do it if his wife was not on the trip. I don’t know what is your experience and what what advice do you give to men that are thinking about or up to women that are thinking about saying hey we’re going on a hike and not telling him the rest of it.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:23:33.87)
bringing their husband.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:23:38.766)
Well, I can tell you I did several of this programs with my wife and because we were not, so the issues both of us were working on were not relation related. So it was not an issue, know, there was no tension or no friction there. And so if that is the…

Jason Elkins (01:23:54.193)
Okay, that’s good.

Jason Elkins (01:24:05.691)
But if you’re thinking about a divorce, you probably shouldn’t go with your wife.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:24:09.998)
No, or even if you’re thinking about saving your marriage, but then probably you can both go on, following what you said, go on different departures. Just give yourself time to be with yourself and to really think and don’t put the stress of the relationship on top of reflection process.

Jason Elkins (01:24:10.715)
That was very direct.

Jason Elkins (01:24:24.71)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (01:24:33.509)
Yeah.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:24:37.708)
That being said, I’ve seen several couples joining and having a wonderful time and actually, because if the relation is fine, there can actually be benefits out of being together in this process, because probably you want to align different things. Imagine suddenly you start thinking, well, maybe I would like to move to a different country. Probably you want to discuss that with your spouse, right? Probably before.

Jason Elkins (01:24:51.789)
sure yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:25:00.655)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (01:25:05.307)
Probably a idea to do it on a walk. Probably a good idea to do it when there’s mentors around in case the conversation goes sideways.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:25:10.286)
And before you start actually making a lot of plans, that comes up to your mind and you say, well, look, I was thinking moving to China. What do you think about that? Forget about it.

Jason Elkins (01:25:16.591)
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:25:24.112)
Because here’s the thing, if you go away on one of these programs and your spouse doesn’t go with you and you come up with this idea to move to China and start a textile factory in China, probably something you write that you should have some sort of discussion with her before you visualize it and come up with a game plan and yeah, good idea. So, all right.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:25:43.754)
Yeah, and start going into details. Yeah. So I think there can be pros and cons to both situations, but especially unless your relationship is in crisis, I think you can perfectly do it as a couple. And I think there I have seen beautiful resolutions and evolutions happen in that environment. Now, this are

we actually designed them to be transformational programs. So this is transformational travel. There is the saying that whenever you travel, you never return the same, you always transform. But this is actually intentionally giving you the tools to transform. So you’re coming back transformed. Now that means the people who stayed behind did not transform in the same way.

Jason Elkins (01:26:29.271)
Even more so, yeah.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:26:42.956)
And so there is, we always really tell people plan for a soft landing and be ready for this kind of shock, which is when you go back, your life will be as it was, but you’re not the same. You will be different. And so there is, there is a need for an adaptation and for a capacity to, you know, merge back into that without losing yourself, without, you know, giving away your

Jason Elkins (01:26:53.135)
Yeah, you’re not the same person. and yeah.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:27:11.694)
your transformation and that is doable, but it’s demanding.

Jason Elkins (01:27:18.703)
Yeah, I guess I just need to ask this another question. OK, so you said mostly women going on these trips, transformational, figuring out kind of what’s important to them, how to enjoy life and all this stuff. You’ve got some men on the trips. In my experience, sometimes when you start really doing that type of work.

you can create connections with other people in the group? Probably do. I mean, I suspect that’s part of it. Yeah. And sometimes that connection can…

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:27:47.214)
Naturally, yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:27:54.639)
I’m just going to be very direct. Is this a place a single guy could go on a trip? And I’m not suggesting that it would be appropriate to go to meet women, but I just want to put the question out there so you can answer it. So anybody that’s listening to this thinking, yeah, that’s probably not a good plan, or it is a good way to go meet like-minded people that are also into personal development. What are your thoughts? Because I’m sure you’ve seen it happen.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:28:16.654)
We’ve seen it happen. It’s not the rule, but it does happen. It’s definitely not a dating program. So that is very clear and upfront. And so no one is expected to be there on a dating program.

But that being said, of course, it can happen if you are in a time of transformation, of change, and you’re with people who are also in that moment, it is natural that there will be some identity, some bonding. And usually very deep and meaningful friendships arise from that.

Jason Elkins (01:28:53.489)
some bonding.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:29:05.114)
I’m remembering at least one situation where a marriage arise from, I mean, not immediately, but after two years, no, no, obviously not. And actually the relation did not start during the trip, people, they stayed in touch and then eventually it evolved into, they started dating, they fell in love and it was a beautiful story. But it’s not, I mean,

Jason Elkins (01:29:11.729)
Not on the trip.

Jason Elkins (01:29:26.928)
Well,

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:29:34.766)
It’s not like the rule by any means. The rule is you make very good friends and people whom you can meet after a couple of years or maybe five, six years, and it feels like you were talking with them yesterday, which is a very, you know, really nice feeling kind of, you know, childhood friends that you meet after 20 years and you just feel like you were together the day before.

Jason Elkins (01:29:53.455)
Yeah. Yeah.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:30:03.31)
So it’s kind of this very honest, very real relation that you get to build because you were walking with these people for a week, walking in nature, talking about very meaningful, deep reflections. And so it happens.

Jason Elkins (01:30:20.58)
Love it.

Jason Elkins (01:30:25.019)
Sounds pretty cool. Thank you so much for sharing so much about what you guys are doing and your life and kind of what you’ve learned along the way. think it’s important for people to hear that. We spent a lot more time talking about personal development on this episode than we probably have on the other 180. But every conversation has brought out different things. You brought out a lot of good stuff and I appreciate that and I hope to go on a walk with you someday. This was fun.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:30:36.526)
Thank you, Jason.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:30:52.738)
Well, I appreciate it so much. Thank you so much for the brilliant questions and the conversation. was really very easy going. I didn’t notice the time going by. So I just hope we’re not gonna be too long for our listeners, but hopefully they will enjoy it.

Jason Elkins (01:31:02.373)
Yeah. I think I’m at. Yeah, if anybody’s still listening, thank you. no, no, thank you so much. Fascinating.

Nuno Santos Fernandes (01:31:11.502)
Yeah, thank you for that. But thank you for all the wonderful conversation. Thank you.

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