Guest Bio
Pat Pendergast is the Director of International Travel at The Fly Shop®, a premier fly fishing outfitter based in Redding, California. With a career spanning over three decades, Pat has guided anglers across the globe, from the remote rivers of Alaska to the flats of the Mexican Yucatan. His extensive experience and passion for fly fishing have established him as a respected authority in the industry.
Show Summary
In this episode, Pat Pendergast shares his journey from his early days of fly fishing on California’s Kings River to leading international fishing expeditions. He discusses the evolution of The Fly Shop®, the intricacies of organizing global fishing trips, and the importance of sustainable fishing practices. Pat also reflects on memorable adventures, including guiding in Alaska and exploring the untapped fisheries of Kamchatka, Russia.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Passion-Driven Career: Transforming a personal passion into a lifelong profession can lead to fulfilling and impactful work.
- ✓ Global Exploration: Embracing opportunities to explore uncharted territories enriches personal growth and industry knowledge.
- ✓ Sustainable Practices: Implementing responsible fishing and travel practices ensures the preservation of aquatic ecosystems for future generations.
- ✓ Leadership Through Experience: Hands-on experience and adaptability are crucial in guiding and mentoring within the adventure travel industry.
- ✓ Community Engagement: Building strong relationships within the fishing community fosters collaboration and shared learning.
What You’ll Find on The Fly Shop’s Platform
- ✓ International Travel Services: Expertly curated fly fishing trips to destinations worldwide, tailored to anglers of all levels.
- ✓ Private Waters Access: Exclusive access to prime fishing locations, including ranches and private streams.
- ✓ Fly Fishing Schools: Comprehensive educational programs ranging from beginner courses to advanced clinics.
- ✓ FishCamp™: Youth-focused camps designed to introduce young anglers to the fundamentals of fly fishing.
- ✓ Expert Gear Reviews: In-depth analyses of the latest fly fishing equipment, ensuring anglers are well-informed about their gear choices.
Learn more about The Fly Shop and connect with Pat at:
https://www.theflyshop.com/
Send Pat a Message
Send a short message through this guest feature page. Your email address will be included so they can reply directly.
No need to mention this page. They’ll see your note came through their Big World Made Small guest feature.
Message Sent
Your message has been sent.
Big World Made Small guest features are invitation-only and selected based on story, experience, and fit with the show. Guest support helps make the episode possible, but it does not determine who is featured. This helps keep the show free of third-party ads and interruptions while keeping the focus on real, story-driven conversations.
Guest access: enter your password to unlock your resources.
Incorrect password.
Guest & Partner Resources (Private)
Thank you Pat, for being a Podcast Guest with us.
We’d love to have you join us at the next level and get even more out of your appearance on the Big World Made Small Podcast.
Below you will find access to tools to help you promote your episode and get the most from your partnership benefits. This section is only visible when you use the link we sent, or by entering the password BWMS8873. Do not share the email we sent, or the password, unless you want the person to access the following resources.
Follow, Rate, or Provide a Testimonial
Please use this tracking link to share with your audience:
https://bigworldmadesmall.com/guest/pat-pendergast/?ref=guest8873
Cover Art
This is available to all podcast guests.
Download the file to use on your website or social media posts.
Buzzsprout Audio Player
This is available to all podcast guests.
This is the best option for website embeds, especially prior to the release date. Guests can listen to your episode on your website. This player keeps listeners on your site, which is why I use it.
Use this code to embed your Buzzsprout Player directly on your website:
<div id="buzzsprout-player-14329978"></div><script src="https://www.buzzsprout.com/2216718/episodes/14329978-adventure-travel-with-pat-pendergast-the-fly-shop.js?container_id=buzzsprout-player-14329978&player=small" type="text/javascript" charset="utf-8"></script>Full-Length YouTube Video Player
This is available to Base Camp, Expedition, and Summit Partners.
Upgrade to unlock these benefits.
45 Minute One-on-One Website Review
This is available to Base Camp, Expedition, and Summit Partners.
Upgrade to unlock these benefits.
Big World Made Small Podcast Pitch Portal©
This is available to Expedition & Summit Partners.
Upgrade to unlock these benefits.
All Video & Audio Files with Rights to Repurpose
This is available to Expedition and Summit Partners.
Upgrade to unlock these benefits.
45 Minute Content Strategy Session
This is available to Expedition and Summit Partners.
Upgrade to unlock these benefits.
Custom Branded Video Clips (12 clips)
This is available to Summit Partners.
Upgrade to unlock these benefits.
2 x 45 Minute Digital Marketing Strategy Sessions
This is available to Summit Partners.
Upgrade to unlock these benefits.
Review & Suggest Topic Tags
Review Episode Topics
These topic suggestions help keep this episode profile accurate and easier to find. Your suggestions will be reviewed before any changes are made.
Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
All right, everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. So happy to have each of you back here to enjoy the show today. We’ve got a great show. We’ve got Pat Pendergast from the Fly Shop, a former kind of fly fishing world colleague, partner in that. And so super excited to have him on the show today. Pat, welcome. Thank you, Jason. I’m looking forward to speaking with you about a little bit about fly fishing travel.
Yeah, very, very cool. It’s definitely a topic that’s near and dear to my heart, as you know, and by now I’m sure all the listeners know that it is. And you’re definitely, you know, and you’re both in your role with the fly shop and just the fly shop in general as a real leader in that part of the industry. So you bring a lot of value to everybody that might wanna hear about that. So thank you. Pat, I also recognize that as I’m doing these, having a lot of great conversations, I’m recognizing that pretty much everybody
that works in adventure tourism, adventure travel, definitely fly fishing travel, has some sort of interesting story. Like how, and usually it’s first question people ask is how did you get into this? So I’m gonna go with the standard question of how did you get into this? How did you get from where you were to where you are today? Absolutely. Actually, it’s an interesting story, I think. We’ll see, but I was, I’ve always fished and hunted all my life and never done any travel.
And my dream was to get up to Alaska and I actually had a job lined up as a commercial fisherman in Alaska, which fell through about two months before I was supposed to depart. So, um, I had some construction skills and I learned from some mutual friends that a fellow was starting a lodge in Alaska and it needed some carpenters to put bathrooms and cabins. So I got hired, drove up, drove from San Francisco to Anchorage in five days.
Jason Elkins (03:11.354)
Um, went into the lodge in April, built the bathrooms and all the cabins and was basically hired as what we call a camp Jack, just kind of a do everything, start to generate or move fuel, um, help with luggage, just one of those maintenance guys, and I was having a great time. I was 22 years old, um, didn’t know what I wanted to do with my life. So I said, Alaska is it. Um, about.
halfway through the season, one of the guides didn’t, couldn’t cut it. And I had the fly fishing skills and fishing skills, outdoor skills. So they said, Hey, tomorrow morning, you’re guiding. I said, I’m ready. Let’s do it. Let’s go throwing right into fire. But I was ready for it. I was excited and finished my first season in Alaska. Got out of there like mid October was a long, long summer from April to October.
never once went into town or other than out in the bush. So when I got back in the anchorage, I was a little spooked by all the traffic and cars moving fast. Sounds but it was like, exactly. I was like, whoa. So I loved it. And
Got a job the next year for a different lodge and went back guiding in Alaska, you know, usually June through the end of September, did a couple more seasons there. Then I kind of started to hone in on what I wanted to do. And I had some college completed, so I went back and said, all right, I’m going to do this thing. So I went back, um, enrolled at Chico State and, um, majored in recreation administration with a minor in business.
or thereabouts and then would continue to go back to Alaskan guide each summer, you know, so to pay for school basically. And at that time, you know, school was really reasonable and I could, I can make enough money during the summer to pay for school and lodging and food and everything without having to work going to school. So I’ve pretty much put the pedal down, fast track school, got out of there and did an internship.
Jason Elkins (05:27.478)
with a company named Fishing International out of Santa Rosa. And worked there a couple of years, started getting the itch for Alaska again. I had met Mike Michalak, the owner of the fly shop and his wife Bertha on a familiarity trip that we both went on in Mexico. So we had sort of a relationship and a friend of mine was starting a new lodge in Alaska and I said, yeah, I’m in. So quit Fishing International, moved back to Alaska.
Uh, with my, with my wife, we were newly married and we lived out in the bush for a couple of years, a couple of seasons, um, way out there. It was 130 miles Southwest of Cordova on the Alaska Gulf coast. And, um, we had a silver salmon camp there. So did that for what did your wife think of that? I, this would be a good opportunity here. That’s a great story. My wife had the absolute dream job.
Um, she was in movie production in Hollywood. I met her in Chihuahua Meadows up in Yosemite and she had just completed. She had completed a movie and was, and we met and hiked and biked and, and then, um, she helped co-produce the mask with Jim Carrey and industrial light magic at the time did all the special effects.
So after the movie, she got an interview with, um, ILM and ended up moving to Northern California from Hollywood and went to work for them. Okay. And, um, we ended up, uh, get back together and got married. And I said, well, you want to do this. You want to move to the Bush of Alaska from this dream job at, you know, working for George Lucas and star Wars and everything else, and, uh, she goes, well, if we don’t do it now, we’ll never do it.
Wow. Yeah, let’s do it. We put everything in storage, packed up the pickup and took a month to drive to Alaska. And then we were there. Have you ever considered that perhaps you should have been a dating relationship coach for men to help them find women that would go to the bush in Alaska for Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know about that. fishing guide. I mean, that’s a if you could if you could can that Sure. experience or can that skill you could make a lot of money.
Jason Elkins (07:48.926)
Well, my wife’s great. She was a gamer. She was a gamer and she wanted to do something different and she kind of grew up in an outdoor family. So it wasn’t that crazy for her. And we took her up for a test run in the spring and she said, yeah, I like this. We could do it. So, um, but you know, I was in the, I was selling fishing trips. So maybe it was a good salesman. Yeah. There we go. Anyways, we had a good time. So what
Was there anything just about that experience? Because I’ve had similar experiences. I remember my wife, we picked up and moved to Belize. We put everything in a storage space and we’re going. She’d never been out of the country. And she was pretty game to go at the beginning. Near the end, it changed a little bit. And just the realities of that type of work just kind of set in. I’m curious, did you have any experiences like that in Alaska that caused you to leave? Or what came up? You know, it’s what.
people understand when they work for, you know, a seasonal sport fishing lodge in Alaska, I think it’s as tough mentally as it is physically. And you have a short 12 to 14 week season of, you know, intense, you know, work, um, you know, 12 people coming in on Friday, 12 people were going out and boom, boom. There’s no rest. There’s no days off. And it is, you know, it, at the end of the season, you’re kind of running on empty. Um,
But as far as, we just, actually it just didn’t work out with the partnership that I was in with the lodge. And I had been talking with Mike, Mike Michalak for some time and he was ready to expand his whole business. And so actually, yeah, November or yeah, November 96. We flew down.
barge, moved down the Redding, found a rental place. It was a horrible place. But my wife said, well, it’s got indoor plumbing in the garage. It’s great. And it’s not 40 below outside. Yeah, yeah. It’s not below 100 miles an hour. So yeah, it started here at the fly shop. I think my anniversary here is like November 13 or something. So it’ll be like 2627 years or something like that. And I’ve been here since.
Jason Elkins (10:13.686)
And when I came into the travel department to fly shop, it was Mike and his wife Bertha. That was a travel department. And that was, yeah. So 2000 or 1997, we went, we made this huge push in the company. Not just travel, but retail and everything else. And we just kind of took off from there. Now, you know, we have, I don’t know, five different guys, you know, destination specialists and
couple of administrative people. We’re still small. Um, the goal was never to get to be the biggest. We just wanted to be the best, um, that we, we could, um, we have a little different business philosophy than other similar businesses, um, we’re not all things, all people, we kind of choose who we want to work with. Um, we like, you know, small.
small occupancy destinations, owner operators, family owned, people with skin in the game that are there on site, you know, that we think makes a difference in a person’s, you know, weak experience fly fishing. No, absolutely. And I can relate to that. I’ve watched the fly shop. I think I met you first a few years maybe after you had come on board and
Things were already tracking quite well at that point. And just, you know, for any of our listeners that aren’t familiar with, maybe they’re not into fly fishing because that’s about the only reason I could think that they wouldn’t know of the fly shop. But anybody listening to this, yeah, it’s kind of that. I don’t know if you like the word boat boutique. It’s for whatever reason, it’s the word that’s coming into my mind. It doesn’t really fit, but it’s, yeah, just the, you know.
I’ve been on many of the trips that you guys offer. It’s good stuff, it really is. So I think that that’s smart. And for those people that really don’t know anything about fly fishing, I’m gonna take advantage of the fact that I’ve got a fly fishing expert right here sitting in front of me. How do you describe fly fishing to somebody that’s like, I like to fish, it might, or I don’t like to fish, what’s this fly fishing thing all about? Because I realized that might be the case for some of our listeners. So if you don’t mind.
Jason Elkins (12:30.25)
Yeah, fly fishing is just a different means of delivering a artificial, we’ll call it lure in this case and fly fishing. It’s a fly to a species of fish. Um, some of the best, um, fly fishers I’ve met over my career have been great conventional anglers. Um, because it’s the fish.
don’t necessarily change their habits or where they’re gonna be in a fishery. It’s just in fly fishing, we’re using a different means of catching them. Instead of using bait or a spinner or spoon or whatever, a plug, jig, we’re using a fly. So the fly line is actually weighted on the fly rod and that’s what delivers the end product to the fish. But you could count on the fish, whether you’re…
spin fishing, bait casting, whatever you’re doing, the fish are still in the same spot. So that begs the obvious question that I know I’ve heard before and I’m gonna ask you is, so why would you use fly fishing if you can use spinners, lures? What’s the draw or appeal, do you think, to fly fishing? I think in fly fishing, there’s a lot of grace involved, a lot of art. It’s…
Jason Elkins (13:57.794)
That’s a good question. It’s just, I don’t think it’s better or worse. It’s just different. It seems to, in my mind, it seems to maybe engage a different part of the brain or just emotions. Cause it’s hard to answer that question. I agree. Cause I’ve asked myself that quite a few times, but it, you know, for me- That’s a good question. I mean, it’s not necessarily about muscle.
It’s not, you know, um, probably the people that, well, not probably. I know the people that pick it up the quickest are usually women because they know how to listen. And they don’t think they already know they after holding a fly rod. It was just a blank slate and they follow the guide’s instructions and, you know, in no time, they got them cast in 30, 40 feet and getting it where they need to be and they’re successful. I mean, honestly, one of the worst things a guy could hit could hear.
is I’ve been fishing for 45 years. You don’t have to worry about me just take care of my wife and you look over at the guy and you’re like, well, you’ve been doing it wrong for 45 years. And you just gotta say, okay, you know, it’s you do what you want to do. I’ll work with your wife, we’re gonna catch a bunch of fish. So and I know, and I knew you were gonna say that. And I also know that when you say I’m going to work with your wife, I know that the very next words out of your mouth oftentimes are and you keep your mouth shut.
No, we just move far away. Yeah. I did a lot of guiding out of a drift boat and it was like, we can only get about six feet away from each other. Yeah. And it was, it was part of the briefing in the morning. I go, okay, yeah, fine. I’m going to work with your wife, but you have to keep your mouth shut. And cause I can’t tell you many times. I, you know, she’s like kicking butt. She’s doing great. She’s catching fish and he opens his mouth and then she’s like, okay, I’m going to take a break.
Yeah. And I don’t blame them. I mean, I get it. No, I get it. And they usually come around once their wife is in there, like their sixth or seventh fish, they’re kind of like, well, maybe I do need a little direction. So it’s all good. Yeah. They open up to that. And it’s just, it’s a lot of fun. I remember my, I’m going to share this because maybe there are people listening that are thinking about getting into this or getting a partner into it. And I used to take my daughter with my wife quite often, we go float the river.
Jason Elkins (16:20.106)
And she drew a picture at school one day, she drew a drift boat with me rowing the boat. And she’s got the little bubble coming out of my mouth saying, blah, blah. And then there’s a bubble coming out of my wife’s mouth saying, leave me alone. Quit talking to me. What I’m doing. So, and I share that because that is just rather, it does not matter how great of an angler you are, how great of guide you are.
Do not guide your wife. No, do not teach her to fly. It’s not the fly cast either. No, farm that out to your buddy. Yeah, she would have enjoyed the experience and she’s an incredible angler and she would have enjoyed the experience so much better if early on I had asked one of my guide buddies, hey, can you go take her fishing please because she’ll enjoy it a lot more. I’d probably enjoy it a lot more. So anyway, so anybody listening, that’s just a.
No, that’s, that’s a great story. That hits, that hits home for a lot of people. I guarantee it. It did. And my wife put it right on the fridge. She’s like, yep, this is going here. So I could see it every day. I want a picture. I want, I want a picture of that picture. I will, I trust I will find it. It was the, it was cute, but it was also like a little bit of a knife in the heart. But it was like, okay, kids don’t have filters. They get it. And you know what? I also learned I’m now divorced.
So I didn’t learn very well. Um, and I learned, you know, we were, we were talking about, you know, like fly fishing, I mean, it’s challenging. Um, I think it’s a natural step for fellows that have mastered, you know, spin and bait casting, um, to move into fly fishing as just another way of, you know, pursuing fish. Um, I kinda, I mean, I was thinking of an analogy, it’d be like,
downhill skiing or snowboarding versus telemark skiing. Oh yeah, that’s it. You’re both going down the hill, you know, all three of those, you’re skiing on snow, but telemark skiing is different. It’s challenging. Yeah, and everybody else is looking at the telemark skier, why is he doing it that way? And it’s beautiful though. You see someone cutting turns, the telemark skiing, it’s like, oh my gosh, that’s just art, it’s poetry.
Jason Elkins (18:44.586)
You know, and, and as we chat and I probably, I’ve forgotten more than what I ever knew. And it seems to go quicker as I get older. And aren’t you a archery hunter? I have, yes. Sure. And I don’t know why for some reason I’m feeling like we’ve had this conversation before and we may have, and I feel like.
An analogy that I’ve used and I, for some reason in my head right now, I feel like, Oh, that’s not my heart from Pat is that archery is to hunting what fly fishing is to fishing, right? Archery hunting is to hunting what fly fishing. Cause it’s not necessarily that you’re closer to the animal, to the nature, but it maybe requires a little bit more cerebral engagement on what you’re doing. Certainly. And I like all forms of fishing.
but it does definitely, you know, when you’re fly fishing, you pretty much can’t think about anything else. And I think you’re connected. You’re more connected to the actual process of archery hunting. And you could go from, you know, shooting compound bows to shooting recurves, to shooting, you know, stick bows or, you know, straight limb bows. And then there’s guys that, you know, make their own bows.
and then go out and archery hunt with it. And that’s taken it to a whole different level. That kind of sounds like fly fishing, doesn’t it? Cause we’ve got guys that make their own rods, dry fly fishermen, nip fishermen, streamer fishermen, tie their own flies. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, you could take it to any level. It’s interesting to, yeah, it’s interesting too, that, you know, I grew up conventional fishing and I still have friends that.
don’t fly fish and they’ll ask me to go, you know, in their bass boat to go bass fishing. And it’s, I get so excited about picking up a, you know, a Baycast and rod and throwing plugs or jigs or worms and it’s beautiful equipment. You know, I’m like, Oh my gosh, this thing is like a piece of art, you know, and we’re flying around the lake in a boat and having fun. And so, uh, to me as a, almost exclusively a fly fisherman, when I get those opportunities, I always look forward to them and they’re exciting. They’re fun.
Jason Elkins (20:59.394)
I would agree, because I grew up conventional fishing. And I remember the first time I went fly fishing, I actually had bought a cheap rod at Cabela’s. I was on my way to Alaska. I was in the army. I was like, I guess I need a fly rod. I’d never held one. I didn’t know anything about it. Went up to Alaska, never ended up using it.
Few years later, I walked into fly shopping Casper, Wyoming. And I and I know you’ve seen this so many times when someone walks in with a rod that is not well suited for the fishing that you do in the area. Oh, yeah. I’ve got this rod. Can you help me figure out how to catch some fish with it? So I’m sure I had an eight or nine weight, which is, you know, for salmon, steelhead, that type of thing. And I walked in, I said, you want to catch some trout in Casper, Wyoming? And they were so nice. They didn’t even say, no, that’s the wrong rod.
He sold me a couple of liters, showed me how to tie a fly on, sold me a half dozen flies, and then drew me a map to this little road with some gates. And he’s like, open this gate, open that gate. And there’s this little Creek and it was full of brook trout. And I went up there. I was catching brook trout that were four inches long on my, you know, my salmon rod. And I didn’t know any different. I thought it was amazing. Every time I set the hook, which I didn’t really know how to do. I’d have to go get the fish out of the, out of the alfalfa. Oh, that’s funny. And.
It was like, oh my gosh, I literally within a week, I gave all of my conventional gear to my brother and it wasn’t out of snobbery. It was just like, I am gonna dedicate myself to this until I figure this out and then maybe I’ll, you know, go back and try some of that other stuff. Gave him all the stuff. I didn’t touch a conventional anything for years, became a guide within a year and a half in Montana and I was just absolutely hooked. And now,
listening to you talk about going out with friends and bass fishing and that, I’m like, yeah, absolutely spot on. I am like, I love all the different types of fishing now. Absolutely. And so, but there are people out there that are kind of purists, it’s like, oh, I just wanna do it with fly rod, doesn’t mean there’s snobs or whatever, it’s just, that’s how they feel the most challenged and connected, so. Absolutely, no, I don’t think there’s a right or wrong in it. Just what you enjoy. It’s how you connect with nature.
Jason Elkins (23:15.602)
Yeah, absolutely. And I also remember someone saying, you know, like the great thing about trout are they live in beautiful places. Absolutely. You know, and that’s like that with a lot of fish. I mean, I have sat below the dam in, you know, Tennessee with a bucketful of chicken livers. I’ve done all that and I guess I would say, well, maybe that’s not a beautiful place. But I have also visited some amazingly beautiful scenic places and used the
And I know you have as well. So what do you, so for people maybe that aren’t completely tuned into the fishing part of it, it’s not all about the fish. Oh my gosh. The mountains, the rivers, the streams. So people, the culture. Exactly. I just read a really great little quote from a fellow who returned from Mongolia, which is an amazing destination. It’s an amazing.
fishing destination, but it’s so much more than that culturally, the people, the history, you know, Chinggis Khan, everything about it. And he said this simple, beautiful quote that the fish are the outcome, but not the reason. And I thought, man, he just nailed it. Um, and it is, I mean, like you said, trout live in beautiful places. Um, but it.
I always say, you know, destinations are but servants to our journeys. Being that it’s the journey of getting to these far off lands and seeing this beautiful country and meeting these wonderful people and experiencing the food and the culture. It’s a combination of things. Sometimes the fish is way down the…
ladder. I mean, it’s like fishing is an excuse to go to Mongolia or go to Chile or Argentina or Tanzania tiger fishing, you know, it’s like, it’s, it’s almost like the bait for us. Yeah, you’re right for us. But it’s the whole No, you’re absolutely right. Because I can think of you actually just named off a few places. I’m like, yeah, okay.
Jason Elkins (25:37.986)
Specifically, actually, when you mentioned Tanzania, I did go, you know, I worked for Orvis, a fly fishing company. I went to Zambia and it was Orvis, so yeah, the fishing was definitely an element involved. But I was just speaking earlier today about taking my mom, I took my mom to Zambia, she likes to fish as well. And the whole conversation that I had with the
We talked about the experience of going to Africa, time with my mom, the people in the group, all this stuff. And I did not once remember the tiger fish until you said tiger fish in Tanzania. That’s cool. And it’s like, ooh, yeah. Because my mom, even my mom’s like, I want to go to Africa and catch a tiger fish. OK, great. So we went. And then five, six years later, I’m having conversations with people talking about Africa. And I don’t even remember that we were there to fish. I think that’s a good sign.
Oh, definitely a good sign. Good for you. That’s, that’s very cool. And you’ve seen that happen on, I’m sure it’s happened to you personally, as well as, as your clients, do you, do you have any stories that kind of come to mind as far as, uh, you know, maybe I think parents and children, you know, adult children and their parents is always pretty interesting. I always thought that it was very interesting when you had a mixed group of people come together because I, you know, I’m
I know that you’ve got trips that non anglers can go on and have an amazing time. So just curious if there’s anything that comes up that somebody that’s listening to this, like, yeah, I’d love to go fly fishing somewhere. But my partner, my husband, isn’t going to want to go with me that day. You know, we do we do a lot of trips for anglers and we call them non anglers to suitable destinations. I mean, some destinations that we represent or hardcore fishing is first and foremost.
sun up to sundown and not a destination that would be suitable for non-anglers or family members that are not that focused on fly fishing. But I would say the majority of the destinations and at some level are attractive to non-anglers. I mean, to me, like Chile, Patagonia, Argentina, Patagonia, New Zealand,
Jason Elkins (28:04.506)
Just absolutely gorgeous places. It’s like stepping back in time 50 years ago. And as my wife who likes to fish, but she’d rather ride horses, she goes, the lights different in Patagonia, you know? And she was in the film business. So she recognizes this and she goes, it’s just absolutely gorgeous, you know? And whether it’s hiking or horseback riding or doing whitewater rafting or…
eating cultural foods, meeting different people, going to small little farms and meeting people that are subsistence living off the land. I mean, there’s so much more to a trip than purely the fishing. And again, it’s that trout, we’re saying trout a lot, but obviously there’s other fish, but trout live in beautiful places like Patagonia, which means you also have beautiful scenery, you have things like whitewater rift.
rafting, horseback riding. Sure. Yeah. Generally where there’s good fishing, oftentimes there’s other cool stuff to see whether or not the operation, you know, that you’re working with in that area is tapped into that very well. I mean, even, you know, I can say, well, the Amazon, the Amazon, that amazing place, whether you fish or not, right. But I can also, but as you know, you know, a lot of those destinations in the Amazon, those are fishing lodges. So, so, um, but. And.
Some lodges are more suitable for non-anglers than others, that’s for sure. I think people need to have as a non-angler, they have to have an open mind and they like to experience new destinations, new sceneries, new culture, meet people that they’ve never met before or have a whole different perspective on life.
And a lot of lodges cater to non anglers, you know, that have non angling activities. And sometimes it’s just, you know, laying on a chaise lounge on the beach and having fresh fruit and a cocktail delivered to them for the day and they’re reading their book. So, yeah, that’s not bad either. No, it’s absolutely not. And it kind of reminds me of another thing that I kind of honestly surprised me a little bit when I was managing the lodge in Belize, it was a fly fishing.
Jason Elkins (30:30.678)
primarily as a fly fishing lodge. We had a scuba diving program and we had an ecotourism program. And a lot of the non-anglers, regardless of, you know, sex or whatever, a lot of the non-anglers would come there, their partners would go fishing all day and maybe the non-anglers would go out on a snorkeling trap or look for manatees or look for turtles or whatever. And I’m gonna say this as someone that worked in the fly fishing industry for quite a while.
Honestly, sometimes it was more fun to hang out with the ladies. I say the ladies, but I’m just non anglers. I’m not sure what the word is that’s best, but you know, the non angling companions, they were a lot of fun to go out with because they weren’t hung up on the size of the fish they caught, the number of fish they caught, whether that their partner in the boat caught more fish than them or whatever. Absolutely. So I saw them have so much fun. So if you’re listening to this and your husband or your, or your wife,
has been saying, I want to go on a fishing trip, but you go on a fishing trip with me to talk to someone like that. Um, trust me, you can have just as much fun or sometimes, to be honest with you. Cause cause sometimes anglers get pretty wrapped up in it when they’ve had it. They’re definitely focused, but you know, some of them, some of the most enjoyable trips I’ve had, um, when my wife has joined me has been a flats fishing trip in the Caribbean or wherever some war water destination is. And you know, she’ll fish and.
be in the boat and whether we’re chasing permit or tarpon or bonefish. And then we’ll knock off say 2 PM, 1 PM and we’ll bring our snorkeling gear. And we’ll, and the guide will take this some really cool place on the reef, you know, that no one goes to, and we’ll just dive over the side and we’ll snorkel and swim and, you know, just kind of bond in, in underneath the water and, you know, come up, you know, after a couple hours.
Oh, this is just a good journey. At least connect, connect. Maybe that’s not the right one. No, but anyway, that’s the sound bite for tick tock that I told you about. We might, but it’s fun. You know, it’s fun, you know, have a, have a cold beer on your way back to the lodge and just, you know, something different, something that you share other than just fishing. No, it’s that’s super smart, which, you know, if I thought of, if I had been more.
Jason Elkins (32:50.438)
aware and more mature at a younger age, my daughter probably would not have drawn that picture we would have less because, you know, because I’m like, I’m, we’re gonna go 12 hours, we’re gonna be out for 12 hours. You know, my daughter’s hungry cold, my wife’s like, you know, she doesn’t want to row the boat, but she doesn’t want me to give tell her where to cast her. It was just friggin miserable. I mean, for all of us got some great pictures of fish. We’re divorced.
Jason Elkins (33:21.534)
It does. I think fishing guides are probably pretty like cutting on the high end of the average divorce rate. I don’t know. I won’t speak for anybody else. She’s great. She worked for us as well. She’s a she’s a she’s a definitely a trooper if for some reason she’s listening to this. And I’m curious. So we covered quite a few things. What I would like to just touch on what you’ve seen change in the
let’s be specific, fly fishing travel industry over the course of the last, we can go all the way back, but maybe just the last year, 10 years, because obviously we had a period of time where people were not traveling. Absolutely. So much so fishing. Social media has changed a bit, which has impacted a lot of the adventure tourism, travel people, going to places just so they could get a picture, so they could put it on Instagram, regardless of what experience they’re actually having. There is some of that in fishing,
I have social media connections that are into fishing. So tell us what you’ve seen change in the last 10 years or so. I think social media definitely has an effect in our industry for sure, as it does probably in any industry. I would say within the last 10 years, I think they’re
Jason Elkins (34:44.998)
I think there’s people that are less focused on maybe having another car or another vacation home or a timeshare. They want to get out and experience the world. They want to see new places. They want to meet new people. They want to experience culture outside of their everyday life.
And I think that’s been very healthy for definitely for our industry. Um, what do you think is, I, too, I guess, two questions. What do you think has potentially caused that just in your own view? And how do you get that pulse? So if you’re taking the pulse, oh, I think people are more interested in experiences, less interested in buying cars. I’m just curious. Like how are you seeing that? There’s a non-tangible.
No. Assets, you know, it’s like, I guess there are going to be different levels within your market. But I think a lot of those, I think a lot of the older baby boomers that are coming up into their late 60s, early 70s, and I’ve heard this from several friends and clients, it’s like, man, if I don’t do it right now, I’m not going to do it. Okay. I saw that guy that was.
you know, 85 years old and he was in great shape, but there was, you know, he was struggling. And it’s like the clock is ticking and he goes, I’ve worked all my life, I’ve worked hard, I’ve been successful. It’s like, I can’t take it with me. Why not experience life? Why not get out there and see some new things? And what I’m seeing is guys are hearing that clock ticking and said, you know what, I’m going. Okay. I want to get out there. I want to see it. I don’t need another car. I don’t need another truck.
I don’t need another boat. I don’t need another house. Um, I want to go, I want to go to Mongolia. I want to go to New Zealand. You know, I want to go to Brazil or Bolivia or Columbia and see, see an experience and I think people are, um, maybe quantifying their quality of life. Less on tangible items than they are on experiences and living for that moment.
Jason Elkins (37:07.55)
of being, you know, living for that moment of the experience. As I listen to you say that I can’t help it. I guess I’m kind of stuck on the COVID thing, right? Sure. Because if I said, I said the last 10 years, COVID was definitely within the last 10 years. And that’s where I saw that kind of that re-evaluation. I’m sitting in Columbia right now. I’ve been traveling full time for two years.
Oh, yeah, right about the as COVID was improving and things were opening up a little bit as when I was like, screw it, I was working in real estate selling houses in Arizona. Right. So you talk about tangible things and, and there’s represent, you know, status or, you know, stat, I’m just gonna say status and move on. But to where it’s like, okay, yeah, I’m not gonna live the next 10 years the way I lived the last 10 years.
And if it wasn’t for COVID, there’s no, I’m sure, I would not be sitting right here. So- Absolutely not. I think it changed a lot of us. I think it did during people, I think it focused people on what was important to them. I mean, not being able to maybe visit and see family during the holidays. And I think that, you know, was a game changer and are spending time with their family. Yeah.
and getting out in the world. Yeah, exactly. I can’t help it. So you were describing the guy that’s like, you know what, if I don’t do it now, I’m not gonna be able to do it. Right. So that person that has that awareness gets to that point, okay, they finally retired, maybe they sold some investments and they’re like, okay, I’m ready. And then the world shuts down. Yeah. And it’s like, oh, I don’t wanna swear here, but that’s what I’d be saying. I’d be like, oh.
crap. Yeah, all of this work and effort. And the thing with COVID was we didn’t know that it was Oh, it’s a couple of years. Yeah, just hang on a couple years. Because I remember even myself, I was in my 40s. And I was like, Oh, man, I’m not going to be able to do all the things I wanted to do. And I’m pretty like, oh, easygoing and relaxed about a lot of things. But it was so as soon as I could go, I’m like, Okay, I’m going, I’m not gonna
Jason Elkins (39:26.198)
get myself stuck in a spot where I can’t go see Columbia someday. I can’t go do this. Can’t go do that. Sure. But, but the person that doesn’t have that kind of time, I’m still pretty young. Right. The person that doesn’t have that kind of time. I think it would just be heartbreaking. And there were a lot of hard, a lot of heartbreaking things. I’m not. Absolutely. There was a reality check for a lot of people. And for a lot of people, it’s not about having a discretionary income to travel the world, be it fishing or whatever you’re doing, it’s the time.
But I think people started to reevaluate their lives and say, you know what, I need to give travel as much time and emphasis as other portions of my life. Because something I’m not going to be able to do this. And I’m always, you know, these, I mean, the saddest things we hear is like, Oh, he’s wanting to go to Tear it off. We don’t catch one of them big sea trout. And the guy waited and waited and waited. And, you know, he finds out he’s got some horrible disease or
He can’t do it physically or, um, and you’re like, damn man. That’s like, you should have done it when you had the time and you had the discretionary income to go do it. It’s like, don’t wait, don’t wait because life changes life, throws your curve balls and all of a sudden you’re like in a position where you can’t go. And, and you have all the means to go. You just can’t do it. I think that’s probably why I’ve made a lot of the life choices I have is because.
It would be just, I think that would be almost a version of hell for me to have. I think it’s a definition of hell. Yeah. The time and the resources and not be able to go. And I mean, there’s so many things. It’s the same thing with family. I mean, there’s, this is a parallel to a lot of things. A lot of people neglect, um, when they’re younger because they’re after money, resources, whatever, and, you know, and then their kids grow up and go away to college and.
Or they moved to Columbia and their parents were like, hey, wait a minute. Where are you going? Um, so it’s, I think it’s a great conversation. I’m curious over the last 10 years, have you, I mean, you and I have both aged. I’m curious if your typical, you know, your average guest client, whatever you want to call them, whatever word you want to use, um, has changed as well. Do you feel like your clients are getting a little older or do you have it in flux of younger people? What have you noticed?
Jason Elkins (41:47.554)
I would say probably the mean average of a guy who’s traveling with us anyways, probably in the industry is probably 67, 68, 66 years old. A lot of these guys are aging out. But there’s, there’s up and coming young guys that have, you know, they got through college, they started a family. Maybe the family’s old enough that they could, you know,
Designate a week to go with one of their buddies, you know up to BC steelhead fishing and they’re in a financial situation to do so I know I think generally speaking Not just in fly fishing travel, but in travel overall adventure travel outside travel outdoor travel that
Jason Elkins (42:36.278)
You know, a lot of guys, a significant amount of guys are aging out for certain types of destinations. That 60 to say 70 is going hard right now. And then maybe the 45, the 55 are starting to pick up, you know, do more trips.
I’m curious because one of the things you and I discussed, possibly discussing on this conversation is kind of new stuff, what’s changing as far as destinations. And as I heard you talk a little bit about maybe some of the older guys aging out a little bit, and then you’ve got maybe some younger guys coming in, do you see a shift in the types of destinations? And the only way I can really explain the question is like,
Are the younger guys more open to destinations with more activities? Are they more hardcore? Are they, how does that, how does that like, so your typical 45, 50 year old, are they going to think of the 16, 70 year olds? Yeah, I could give you a good example of that. It’s like, you know, Dorado fishing in Bolivia, Somali. I tell guys, you know, a person who’s in decent physical shape can hike.
is physically able, is gonna have a much different experience than a fellow that’s way overweight, needs a new hip or needs a new knee and can’t hike and walk and wade and swim across rivers. So yeah, I think the younger guys that are coming in to the fold of fly fishing travel are looking for more adventurous trips.
trips that they know maybe in 20 or 30 years are not going to be able to do. Yeah. And it, and surprisingly there’s older anglers that want to do those trips that probably shouldn’t do those trips. Um, and they go and they kind of get a reality check. It’s like, Holy moly, that was a lot harder than I thought, you know? And it’s like, geez, I, you know, I told you it’s like, it’s going to kick your butt.
Jason Elkins (44:56.962)
But so maybe this is a good opportunity for me to mention my sponsor, the trip evacuation coverage. No, just kidding. Absolutely. If they were sponsoring the show, this that would have been a great time. Thank you for the setup. But, yeah, I hear you. And probably as the operator that’s helping them book these trips and send these sending them on these trips, that’s I imagine is that a kind of a heart to heart or head to head that you. Yeah, I mean, you have to help out with these guys. I mean, I think it’s I think it’s our.
obligation or duty to tell people exactly what kind of experience they’re getting into. And then be honest and say, you know, I don’t think, you know, this thing’s probably not right for you. Yeah. Hard to do, but that doesn’t mean people are necessarily aging out of fly fishing. It’s just picking a different fly fishing experience that will, that could accommodate them better.
You know, as you get older, I mean, guys are losing their balance. You know, they’re not as strong as they were. They don’t like the, you know, wade in difficult water, heavy water. Get them in a drift boat. Get them in a raft. They’re going to have a great experience. And you know, when there’s opportunities to get out of the boat and wade in soft water, then do that. It doesn’t mean you have to quit. It’s just, I think it’d be a little more prudent in selecting the right destination for your physical ability or capability.
I agree with you 100%. I’ve been on trips with people that once you’re there, you kind of realize, oh, maybe this wasn’t the right trip. Doesn’t mean they’re not having fun, but me as the trip leader maybe is worried the whole time. Absolutely. And unfortunately, things do happen. We’re dealing with remote locations that are not always easy to get out of. So that’s super important.
And it should be noted too. And speaking of destinations, I feel like you’ve probably been just about everywhere. I was just going to say, it should be noted too that when those situations arise where someone’s probably in over their head, the outfitters that I’ve worked with and fished with are really good about trying to accommodate those people. I just was with an outfitter here last month.
Jason Elkins (47:19.314)
One of the guys that came up was on a walker. I mean, he needed to use a walker to be mobile. And he figured it out. He got this guy fishing and got him in the river. And he caught fish and it was awesome. He says, best day goes, I don’t know if I could ever do this again, but oh my gosh, thank you for the greatest adventure I’ve had in a long time. And I’ll remember this until I’m gone.
Those are super in fact, because we were talking about the guys that couldn’t go. And now we’re talking about the guys that, that were able to have that. And that’s super rewarding. I mean, I’ve, I’ve lifted guys and I know you have as well lifted them into the drift boat. Okay. Here, have a seat, try and stay balanced. And they just float down the river all day. Just, you know, yeah. And they’re just having a blast. And I think in the back of my head and probably you do as well as like, I hope when I’m this age, somebody’s that kind of me.
It’s like, all right, old man. You know, it’s like, let me get your ass in the boat. We’re gonna have a fun day. And I know you can fish. So let’s just go. And I hope someone is that kind of me someday. Oh yeah, I hope so too. And yeah, just like, please. Cause I don’t wanna sit at the ramp and watch everybody else float away. I’m like, you know, strap me in somehow somewhere.
Um, I also had a hot air balloon ride business and we had situations there where they were kind of seller. Yeah. You know, you get people come in there, like this is my lifelong dream. And they’re in their eighties or nineties or sometimes even a little older. And you know, there’s, there’s always safety considerations as an operator, as a, as a balloon pilot, you’ve always got those considerations. Absolutely. And when you have that honest conversation and you make, you know, well
and you’re able to make it work. There’s like, I mean, I already, we were talking about fishing. I was already thinking about this guy that flew in my balloon. It was one of the last things he did in his life. And to this day, his partner who is there with him will send me a message of a photo of him in the balloon, you know, on the anniversary of his death. And you know, and it’s just like, it just gives me chills though. Absolutely. And that’s…
Jason Elkins (49:40.19)
That’s why we, I believe that that’s why a lot of us do adventure, I keep saying adventure tourism just because I think it is different. I’m trying to, you know, not knocking any other type of tourism, but I think when you’re able to connect with your clients like that and you’ve got the guides and the clients and the other clients and everybody’s just connected doing something that’s just kind of cool, quite frankly, is special. I’ve always been happy to be part of that. What do you see as…
What’s your next hot, I feel like you’ve been probably, maybe you’ve been, I’ve got two questions. You’ve probably been everywhere you wanna go. I don’t know. And I’m gonna ask you the impossible question that everybody asks you and just see how you answer it. Where’s your favorite place, Pat? Where’s your favorite trip to, where’s your favorite place to go? Usually where I am going. That’s a really good answer. And people say, well, that’s kind of a cop out. You know, you gotta have some, I have.
specific types of fishing I enjoy more than others. But usually when people say, what’s your favorite destination? It’s like my next trip, you know, I’m fired up. And I’ve got three spots left, would you like to go? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but no, I mean, I think you do, you know, you get pumped up, you get psyched up for the next trip you’re going on. I mean, my next scheduled trip right now is to the Seychelles and Providence.
Providence atoll for chasing GTs and all the different exotic species. And I’ve never been to the Indian Ocean. So it’s the first for me. I mean, I’ve fished all over the world, fresh and salt, but I haven’t been in the Indian Ocean just the way it worked out. So I’m pumped for that. When are you going? Going in March 19th through the 26th. Okay. So we’re recording this in November, 2023 in case you need, I mean, I’m sure he’ll go back again and it can help you set up a trip, but that’s pretty fun to go with somebody like that. That’s been a lot of places.
to go with them the first time they go somewhere. I don’t even know if you have spots or. No, I’m just coming. Well, we do have one spot. I’m gonna have to cancel, doodle a medical issue. He’s getting older. Ooh, yeah. So no, I have one spot, but you know, I’m gonna be running point. And we do a fair amount of business there. And I got some of my guys here in the office have been several times. So I’m pumped on it. And then I’m home for a few months and then I’m gonna go musky fishing up in Canada with a group of guys.
Jason Elkins (52:00.062)
Yeah. Okay. That’s totally outside of anything I’ve ever done. Done some pike fishing, you know, things like that, but musky on the fly, 100%. That’s going to be a really cool trip. And these boys got it dialed in some. Yeah. And I’m happy you said that because that’s my recollection of musky I’ve never really been. But it’s like, if you get it right, it’s frigging amazing. It’s reliable. But you got to get it dialed in. Yeah. So especially, you know, especially with a fly rod. I mean, I’ve never.
never fish for musky with anything. So I really don’t know. But that sounds like that would, that would, that would be pretty cool. Anything else coming down the pike that someone might not even know any new destinations that are coming up with the fly shop, any new partnerships, any great big trips you’re taking, anything at all? I mean, I think, I think the jungle fishing still is probably in its infancy, you know, Brazil, Colombia, Bolivia.
I think there’s still fisheries out there that we haven’t seen or experienced, which in this day and age, you’d say that’s impossible, but I think they are still out there. I feel some of the southern hemisphere, I feel Australia is probably going to be the next Indian Ocean like it was 20 years ago. I think there’s going to be a big push for Australia. It’s a huge country. They have a lot of fish.
lot of water, a lot of saltwater destinations that we don’t even know about. We’re just ignorant about them. Yeah. I think that’s going to be up and coming. And it’s really when you people’s, well, it’s so far and it’s, it’s not that much further than going, you know, flying to Dubai and then the Mahi to get to the Seychelles or flying the Buenos Aires and then Rio Grande, you know, it’s not that much further. And people have been going to New Zealand fly fishing for years. So come on.
Yeah, absolutely. Anybody that’s been in New Zealand can’t really use that excuse. New Zealand’s one of my favorite places and it touches on a lot of the things we’ve already discussed.
Jason Elkins (54:05.302)
Very, very cool. It’s a real pleasure. I’m curious, is there anything that you think that I should have asked? I forgot to ask anything at all that you think we should add to this particular conversation before we wrap it up? No, I think we covered some good topics. You know, I would just maybe end our conversation as like, gosh, if you’re thinking about going, go. And don’t wait, you know, life is short, things happen. It’s unpredictable. And
If you have the time, you have the means to go, jeez. And it doesn’t mean you have to go to some far off land. It’s like, go for a hike or go down to your local stream and fish and just get outside and enjoy the outdoors. That’s perfect place to stop. And I’m going to, when I edit this, I’m going to play that over and over a few more times, just so people. Yeah. You know, the word rec, you know, recreation is to recreate and it’s really, really cool and it’s true.
It is, it’s very cool. Thank you, Pat. Words of wisdom. Absolutely, Jason. Appreciate the opportunity to connect with you here and look forward to working with you on projects and all kinds of stuff and have more conversations in the future. So again, thanks for sharing your time. Appreciate it. All right, thank you for the opportunity.
Follow 205+ Leaders and the Stories That Shape the Adventure Travel World on the Big World Made Small Podcast
Access the stories here, or on your favorite platform; wherever you prefer.
Get Expert Interviews Delivered Directly to Your Inbox
Join the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast community and we’ll send you new podcast episodes weekly, and make sure you hear about exclusive and relevant opportunities that you won’t find elsewhere.