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Episode #132: Phoebe Maina

CEO

Steri Tours and Travel

Episode #132: Phoebe Maina
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Guest Bio

Phoebe Maina is the founder and CEO of Steri Tours and Travel. With over a decade in the non-profit sector and a smooth transition into private travel planning, she brings a unique skill set for individuals, corporate clients, and international NGOs. Her background gives her a deep understanding of client needs, while personal interactions with Americans and Europeans help her tailor meaningful African travel experiences.

Through Steri Tours and Travel, Phoebe is dedicated to crafting impactful journeys that support women’s empowerment, community development, business growth, and child protection. With 15 years as a social impact expert managing turnaround projects and global initiatives, she offers insight into multicultural dynamics and sustainable tourism.

Recognized as an award winner at the 63rd UN Commission on the Status of Women, Phoebe strives to simplify travel while fostering authentic experiences that drive African economic growth and benefit both travelers and host communities.

Show Summary

In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Phoebe about her inspiring journey from a remote village in Kenya to becoming the CEO of Steri Tours and Travel. She shares how her childhood experiences and family support shaped her passion for cultural immersion and community-centered travel.

Phoebe discusses her career transition from the non-profit world to tourism, highlighting how her work now emphasizes authentic connections and sustainable impact. She reflects on the power of storytelling, the influence of technology on culture, and the importance of training guides to uphold respectful, genuine travel experiences. Her passion for showcasing Kenya’s diverse cultures shines throughout the episode.

Key Takeaways

  • ✓ Traveling is not just about the destination, but the people
  • ✓ Phoebe’s childhood experiences shaped her passion for travel
  • ✓ Family support is crucial in education and personal growth
  • ✓ Cultural immersion enhances the travel experience
  • ✓ Tourism can empower local communities economically
  • ✓ Authenticity in cultural experiences is vital for both travelers and hosts
  • ✓ Technology impacts cultural traditions and perceptions
  • ✓ Respectful interactions are essential in tourism
  • ✓ Training guides to maintain cultural authenticity is important
  • ✓ Kenya’s diverse cultures offer rich experiences for travelers

What You’ll Find on Steri Tours and Travel

  • ✓ Custom travel planning with a focus on cultural authenticity
  • ✓ Experiences that support women’s empowerment and local development
  • ✓ Trips tailored for international NGOs and corporate groups
  • ✓ Guided tours highlighting Kenya’s rich cultural diversity
  • ✓ Socially responsible tourism that benefits host communities
  • ✓ Emphasis on sustainability and respectful traveler interactions

Learn more about Steri Tours and Travel and connect with Phoebe at:

http://www.steritourske.com

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Podcast Transcript

This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.

Jason Elkins (00:01.186)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. Today we’ve got Phoebe Maina Here she is the CEO of Steri Tours and Travel. Phoebe, welcome to the show. Happy to have you here.

Phoebe Maina (00:16.305)
Thank you, Jason. Thank you for having me.

Jason Elkins (00:19.596)
Super excited. We had a conversation before and I thought you’ve got a pretty interesting story doing some pretty cool things and we needed to come back and actually record a conversation. So thank you. Thank you for doing that. Phoebe, where do you, where are you right now? I’m just curious.

Phoebe Maina (00:34.629)
I’m in Nairobi, Kenya.

Jason Elkins (00:36.878)
Alright, do you live in Nairobi?

Phoebe Maina (00:38.843)
Yes, I live in Nairobi.

Jason Elkins (00:40.652)
All right, very cool. Isn’t technology amazing that you can meet from different places in the world, have this face-to-face conversation for those of us that are just listening to this. They don’t get to see your smiling face, but I do. So I’m going to try and convey that to the audience as well. Phoebe, we’re going to dig into your story. We’re going to pull up some old memories and just learn a lot about kind of what made you into the person you are. But before we do that, let’s give our listeners kind of a quick, I don’t know, 30, 60 second.

Introduction to STERI Tours and Travel. What is STERI?

Phoebe Maina (01:15.077)
Okay, STERI is a dynamic company locally owned that offers experiences that are beyond the safaris. For the longest time Kenya is known for safaris, but at STERI to us, we are a dynamic company that offers Kenya beyond the safaris because we say traveling is not travel without the people. And so we incorporate people.

Jason Elkins (01:39.415)
Phoebe Maina (01:41.401)
in all the travel experiences that we create.

Jason Elkins (01:46.368)
Love it, love it, love it. You mentioned the word dynamic twice and I don’t want to put you on the spot, but help me kind of understand when you say dynamic, it seems like a key word for you. So what does that mean to you?

Phoebe Maina (01:57.829)
What it means is the word steric actually is steric because when I was in high school, I loved chemistry and there was this atom called steric that couldn’t stay. I mean, like it was dynamic moving a lot. And so I derived the name steric from that. So.

Jason Elkins (02:18.614)
Really, really happy I asked about the word dynamic. I did not expect that. And based on your personality and our previous conversation in this one, I bet your family when you were young and probably even now kind of like Phoebe, still. I’m just guessing, I don’t know. Very, very cool. Well, we’re gonna learn more about stereo, but before we do that, let’s go back to the childhood I mentioned kind of when you were younger.

Phoebe Maina (02:22.829)
Hahaha

Phoebe Maina (02:35.175)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (02:48.13)
How far back do you think we need to go for our listeners to get a feel for who you are, how you got from where you were to where you are now?

Phoebe Maina (02:57.272)
yeah. Actually, what I do today has it traced back to my childhood.

Jason Elkins (03:04.566)
All right, let’s go there then. How far back into childhood?

Phoebe Maina (03:06.67)
Yes.

When I was young, as early as seven years old, I grew up in a remote village in Kenya, that is in central Kenya, on the slopes of Mount Kenya. And I loved traveling, although there was so much limitation in travel because you’re in the village, your parents don’t have much, but at least I moved around within the village. And at the same time, I loved to help. I could not close my eyes to the problem

I saw around and every time I was prompted to help and that led me into wanting to become a doctor and I worked very hard. I scored A’s in sciences but I would say God had a different plan for me to be a doctor in tours or in travel.

Jason Elkins (03:59.898)
All right, very cool. Hey, let me me ask you this. Because you said you wanted to help the things around you help fix or improve the things around you. Where did that come from? Was that just you or did there somebody in your family that kind of inspired that or nurture or somebody that you were around? Or did it just come out of the blue?

Phoebe Maina (04:25.351)
I would save my childhood and also my grandfather because my grandfather took up the responsibility to take me to school since when I was six years old and he took me through school until the university.

Jason Elkins (04:40.344)
What do you mean by that? Because I think that’s something our listeners might like to learn more about. When you say he took you to school, he took you through from maybe six until university, what does it mean for a young African girl to say her grandfather is taking her to school?

Phoebe Maina (04:57.519)
Okay, for some reasons that I may not get into, my dad was a bit absent in our lives and mom was really struggling and from the little she could make, she couldn’t take me or my siblings to school. And I being the first grandchild of my grandfather who loved education so much, he took up the responsibility when I joined school for the first time. And I remember him buying all the books I needed, paying my school fees,

Jason Elkins (05:04.813)
Mm-hmm.

Phoebe Maina (05:27.433)
taking me to high school, shopping for me, also taking me to the university, coming for my graduation. And yeah, I can go on and on about my grandfather who shaped who I am today. And he was so proud of me when I got into travel business.

Jason Elkins (05:40.919)
Wow.

Jason Elkins (05:45.314)
That’s super cool. I’m really happy I asked about that. You’ve got my eyes watering here a little bit because I can just sense the emotion. so when you say, took me to school, it’s not just he walked me to school each day. He sponsored you. He ensured that you had the resources that you needed to not just get physically get to school, but to get through school and create something. That’s very cool.

Phoebe Maina (06:11.003)
Yeah, it’s true. Actually, I need to point out one thing that stands out. When I went to the university, I was two hours away from home. And that time there was no mobile phone, but there was a booth, a landline.

that was at the shopping center and my grandfather used to live at the shopping center because he had some buildings and some business there. So I would call the booth and then the owner of the shop next to the booth, the landline, would pick the phone, I mean would pick the call and I would tell him, please call my grandfather, tell him I need to talk to him.

Jason Elkins (06:26.766)
Mm-hmm.

Phoebe Maina (06:47.365)
And then I would stay on the other end and wait for him. When he comes, I put more coins. I call again. And he was very reliable because once he was called, he was told, your granddaughter wants to talk to you. He would show up. And I would talk to him and tell him, Grandpa, I’ve ran out of pocket money. And he would be like, let’s say it is on a Wednesday. He’s like, I’ll be there to bring you money on. Because we didn’t even have mobile money like we do have today.

I’ll be I’ll come see you on Friday. Let’s say I made the call on Wednesday and he promises to come see me on Friday to bring me money and he would make a two-hour journey. He wasn’t driving so it’s using public buses. So he would board a bus and he would pick the first bus to be at the town near my university at 9 a.m. and I would find him at the bus station.

Jason Elkins (07:17.569)
Mm-hmm.

Phoebe Maina (07:43.501)
I go pick him, we get into a restaurant, we take tea and a slice of bread together. He gives me the money that I needed. Then he bought the bus and goes back home. And that story is still stuck in my mind and in my heart.

Jason Elkins (07:55.224)
Wow.

Jason Elkins (08:00.48)
Yeah, I can tell just the look on your face. That’s a pretty high level of commitment. And just the logistics involved, because now we live in a world where, you know, a lot of people, not everybody, but people maybe, you know, that I grew up around now fast forward to these days, it’s like, they’re off in college, they need a little bit of money, they send a text message to their mom or their dad.

Phoebe Maina (08:07.079)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (08:27.074)
The mom or dad transfers it through Zelle, puts it in their account and sends them back a message. Okay, it’s there. They don’t even pick up the phone to call to say I’m out of money. they send a Venmo request to mom or dad. Hey mom, dad, I’m out of money. So for you to go down to a payphone, drop coins into the payphone.

Phoebe Maina (08:33.635)
Yeah, I know.

I know.

Jason Elkins (08:51.342)
call the neighbor basically, ask the neighbor to go get the grandpa to have the grandpa come back in five minutes, because I’m going to call back again. It’s a little different. So I can see where that left a real impact on you. I’m curious also about siblings. You mentioned you were the oldest grandchild. Do you have siblings or were there just other grandkids in the family?

Phoebe Maina (09:01.765)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Phoebe Maina (09:14.495)
There were other grandkids and I also have my four brothers, I mean my three brothers. I am the only girl in my family and three brothers are behind me. And of course there were other grandchildren in the family.

Jason Elkins (09:19.489)
Okay.

Jason Elkins (09:29.922)
I don’t know if you want to discuss this and maybe later you’re going to say, Jason, take that bit out. But I’m curious. You were the first grandchild. Grandpa been over backwards to make sure that you got through school and you needed what you needed. I’m sure the other grandkids, he helped them follow their dreams as well as best he could.

but I’m curious about maybe some of your siblings, some of your cousins, anybody else working in the tourism business or anyone else that you want to kind of mention or share anything with us.

Phoebe Maina (10:02.887)
Yeah, I have my cousin who was also, I mean, who was far young than I was. And when I started working, I was able to sponsor her through university. And now she works for me as the finance person.

Jason Elkins (10:16.365)
Jason Elkins (10:26.318)
All right, very cool. So it’s kind of that, that pass it, pass it down or pass it, pass it, pay it forward or whatever. So that your grandfather helping you helped you create opportunities for her and now you’re working together. So that’s, that’s very, cool. So when was the first you mentioned that you thought maybe you wanted to be a doctor. You studied hard, got good grades. I’m curious when or how it shifted from.

becoming a doctor to to working in tourism. Like when’s the first moment you thought, I can work in tourism someday. Just curious how you got there.

Phoebe Maina (11:02.243)
Okay. Okay.

It’s interesting. When I was done with high school, in Kenya there was that program where when you scored certain grades, you are admitted to public universities and you’re partially sponsored by the government. And so when the letter came for admission, interestingly, the government board that was picking, I mean, placing students to different universities, they placed me in a university that was only offering

education arts as a bachelor or a degree in education arts, nothing science. I, it’s interesting. I cried. was like, I didn’t want to be a teacher and I didn’t want to do English and literature. mean, what will happen to my chemistry? What will happen to my A’s in chemistry, in biology, in physics? And so I cried so hard. I tried to change, nothing worked. And

Jason Elkins (11:40.32)
Okay, how interesting.

Phoebe Maina (12:00.659)
I was like, okay, fine, let me be positive. Let me walk in into the university and do English and literature, although it wasn’t my choice. And along the way, I loved it. And as a matter of fact, I could see in the subconscious was getting prepared for tourism because my project in literature was oral literature among the Kipsiges. Kipsiges is one of the many tribes in Kenya.

So how I picked that as my project is quite amazing. I started falling in oral literature, in culture, and that is amazing because that is what I’m doing currently. But then I didn’t know I would be doing that today. And so…

Jason Elkins (12:44.558)
are

Let me ask you this because this is interesting. What I heard you say was in Kenya, you do well and your preliminary, maybe what we call high school or whatever you call it there in Kenya. if you do well, you take your tests and you say, want to go to college. And then the government or some entity decides where to place the students based on the

Phoebe Maina (12:51.281)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (13:14.23)
number of spots they have, the amount of money, whatever, whatever. So if you go into the program that they choose for you, then there’s some financial, you know, they help you go through school, scholarship, public university. I suspect that if you have the resources to say, you know what, I don’t want to study education or literature, I want to be a chemist or something like that, you could.

Phoebe Maina (13:18.128)
Yes.

Jason Elkins (13:42.638)
try and come up with the money on your own to go to a private school, presumably, or is that how it works?

Phoebe Maina (13:46.511)
Yes, yeah that’s true. If I had the money or if my family had the money I could have

studied medicine because that is the course I wanted to study as a private student in the governmental university or in a private university. But that was not the case for me. My grandfather didn’t have those resources and also my parents didn’t have the resources. Yeah, so I didn’t have a choice. So I just had to do what the government chose for me.

Jason Elkins (13:58.68)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (14:09.59)
Yeah, I can imagine. It’s expensive.

And okay, so I guess the obvious question is, are you happy that it worked out that way? Do you have regrets?

Phoebe Maina (14:25.887)
I am so happy. Actually, I normally say my story was written way before I got to know about it. And that is why I found myself, you know, with all the A’s in sciences, I got myself into a degree in education. And then I didn’t even teach. Immediately after I graduated, I looked for a job.

Jason Elkins (14:34.668)
Uh-huh.

Phoebe Maina (14:49.669)
And I got a job as a teacher in a high school for only six months. I taught for six months and I was like, no, I can’t be contained in a classroom. So I looked for a job in the NGO world where I got a job with one of the NGOs in the country. And I worked in the NGO sector for 15 years. Before now, I got into…

Jason Elkins (14:55.106)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Phoebe Maina (15:12.163)
into tourism. But while I was working there, I was organizing trips for donors and sponsors, and we were doing projects in the communities. And at the end of the project, with the community, the donors and the sponsors, and also the teams that were coming to work on the project that they had sponsored, we would take them on a safari.

And so I used to accompany them and I loved it. And not only loving them, I mean, love my country, also, something else, spark my desire to create a change in a better way. As we did all this, I could see the poverty around the tourist destinations.

And so I was already in the development world of helping communities and all that. But I was like, there is a better way to empower communities by using already what they have and giving them an opportunity to take charge of their lives. They already had the culture, the history, they were protecting the environment, they were conserving the wildlife, yet they were still in abject poverty.

while next to them were these big, thriving hotels with vehicles coming in and getting out. And so that is what kept coming up in my mind.

What can we do? What can I do? Collaborate with all the stakeholders and make a change or create a different story. Where now, not only will the travelers enjoy our beautiful country, but also the local communities will get to stand and say, because of tourism, we are able to put food on the table. We are able to send children to school. Because of tourism, we see the benefits of preserving our culture, of conserving the wildlife.

Phoebe Maina (17:06.753)
and also preserving the environment. That is how I found myself now in founding Stereotourists.

Jason Elkins (17:12.866)
That’s a mouthful. That’s a lot for me to digest, Phoebe. And I think the question, or the thing that you said that I want to follow up on right at this moment is you said, I asked myself, the question was, how do we do it? Right? How do we do this? How do we…

Phoebe Maina (17:19.751)
my god.

Yes.

Phoebe Maina (17:36.549)
Yes. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (17:39.734)
connect the resources coming in, the people coming in with the community so we can lift them up. I think that’s a really big question. How much have you figured that out? Like if I were to ask you, don’t know, Phoebe, how do you do that? Have you figured that out or what approaches have you seen that are working really well? Maybe since the time you’ve been working in this or what do you want to share with our listeners? I guess is about what needs to happen.

in Kenya to achieve your goals.

Phoebe Maina (18:12.806)
Okay.

Currently in our small way in Stereotours, we started cultural experiences where we give the communities an opportunity to showcase their culture and not just showcasing, it is welcoming the travelers and the people coming into their community to immerse themselves in their culture, to cook with them, dress like them, sing with them, dance with them, so that the whole experience is beneficial.

for the travelers and also for the host communities so that the host communities don’t feel like a prop, you know? They don’t feel like, okay, we are waiting for the guests, they come, we perform, they go, you know? They want the guests to learn their way of life. This is the food we cook and this is why we cook it. This is what we have for dinner and this is where we get it. This is how we go about it. These are the songs we sing during this ceremony.

Jason Elkins (18:50.69)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (18:55.15)
Phoebe Maina (19:11.865)
and we cannot sing them at this ceremony. And that is what we call about cultural immersion and experience. It’s not just stage managed. It’s not just performing. Yes.

Jason Elkins (19:23.063)
Right.

You mentioned performing and you know, I’ve been fortunate enough to travel to a lot of places, a lot of solo travel, but also with tourism organizations or just even day tours. You know, I went on, I’m in the country of Georgia right now and several weeks ago, a friend of mine that I had met, she’s like, we’re going to go do this tour. Do you want to go along? So I signed up and it was just a day tour. It’s not the difficult tour that I would.

ever generally do, but we were on a bus with 16 people that we didn’t know and you go out and I guess I would describe it as a tour of gift shops. If I was going to put it, you know, and I think you know what I mean. It’s like, okay, we’re at the first stop, we’re going to get off here and this is a winery. So we get off and basically we’re shuttled into the gift shop where we’re going to do a tasting and they’ve got all the wines and

Phoebe Maina (19:54.695)
Mm-hmm.

Phoebe Maina (20:05.74)
yes.

Jason Elkins (20:20.76)
fruits and all this stuff that they sell and they’re pouring little samples into little plastic cups and we’re trying it and most of the people are buying stuff and then it’s okay, let’s get on the bus, we’re going to the next spot. And so the reason I’m bringing this up is I know that also that happens in Africa. It’s like, we’re gonna go visit a cooperative where the ladies make

Phoebe Maina (20:34.587)
Whoa.

Phoebe Maina (20:40.572)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (20:48.654)
Clothing or gifts or whatever so we go there for two hours and we watch the ladies bat Weave some baskets or creates or or use a loom or something like that But the idea is that now you need to buy it now. We’re go to the next place Does this resonate with something that happens often in Africa? Where would you go like to go with this? I’ll quit talking you tell me

Phoebe Maina (21:10.771)
It is true, it happens a lot and I’ve had feedback even from the clients and they don’t like it. And also the host communities don’t like it because I mean, life is for the living and for the people and people want interaction, they want connection. And that is why we have…

Jason Elkins (21:25.336)
Yeah.

Phoebe Maina (21:33.607)
tried and we are working together even with partners to ensure that when we call it a cultural immersive experience, we really mean that and it should benefit both as much as the host communities are making something out of it in monetary.

terms but they also feel respected and they feel that for sure these people wanted to learn something from them and they also get to learn something like for example some of the experiences we create it’s like you come stay with the i mean like let’s say lunch will not be at the hotel it will be at this village and you will cook together with a village so

Let’s say for example, you’re Mexican. So we buy ingredients for Mexican food. So you teach them something. They also teach you something. And you all bring together the food which you all cooked together and eat together. That is cultural exchange. And you carry that away with you. You remember a meal you cooked together with the host community and you also shared your culture. Because I mean, like I said again, it’s about the people.

Jason Elkins (22:37.889)
I love it.

Jason Elkins (22:41.896)
I love it and there’s some challenges. Recently there’s been a lot of conversation around over tourism, but we can also tie that to like what you’re describing, I’m visualizing as pretty small groups. Maybe private departures, maybe families.

Phoebe Maina (22:51.836)
Mm-hmm.

Phoebe Maina (23:00.273)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (23:05.506)
maybe small mixed groups of probably, I don’t know, I don’t wanna put numbers in your head, but what I’m visualizing is it’s hard to really do that once you get over about 12 or so people. And then there’s other companies that do the whole tour bus and pull into a village with a whole tour bus and how do, I don’t even know how they could create something like that. So what do you think?

Phoebe Maina (23:16.263)
If it…

Mm-hmm.

Phoebe Maina (23:28.391)
I think it depends with the experience and also the people involved. For example, like that one I have described for cooking, about eight to 10 people, actually even to 12, because you have also 10 to 12 community members and in the village, the space is quite big. So you’re all cooking together and we are not changing anything for the visitors. We are doing it as we do. We are doing life as we do.

Jason Elkins (23:47.918)
Mm-hmm.

Phoebe Maina (23:55.717)
And so the community members will showcase life just the way they do. If they put three stones and they put a pot to cook, that is exactly what they are going to do because it is quite different and it is quite authentic. Then there is this other experience of my tribe. It’s called the Agikoyo Experience. It’s a new product that we launched recently, which involves a tea farm tour.

And then after the tea farm tour, we do a cultural experience and we had about 16 guests.

So that is like a whole bus, but you don’t even get to feel like it’s such a huge group because as soon as they get in into the farm, they are welcomed by a group of dancers who have preserved or rather we are working with to conserve or other preserve our culture. So they have trained gen Z’s who have trained themselves our language. They have trained themselves the traditional songs and they have also made traditional musical instruments. So they welcome them.

and as soon as they get in, they sing, they dance together. Then after that, we give a brief introduction about the experience and then we walk on the Tuwa farm. And because the farm is so big and we have a couple of guides, you don’t get to feel like you are overwhelming the community. And also the people who are picking the tea, there are so many and they want to, they are so excited to show you how to pick tea.

Jason Elkins (25:14.134)
Mm-hmm.

Phoebe Maina (25:20.997)
So you pick tea with the people. So everybody gets a basket because there are like 30 or 40 people in the farm. So you take a moment and pick the tea with them, then get to learn about how tea is grown, how tea came to Kenya, how it’s processed, and then also taste the tea with the people.

And after tasting the tea, then you walk down to the ground where now the same people, they dress you up in their cultural or other traditional attire, now for dancing and having fun. And so you dance together and eat together and learn about their food. And then at the end of the entire experience, you toss a muratina, that is our local brew. It’s called muratina.

Jason Elkins (25:54.645)
you

Jason Elkins (26:10.529)
Okay.

Phoebe Maina (26:10.607)
and the local brew, it’s organically made and they are also very excited to tell you about that local brew. And it is only served in hawns. That is quite exciting.

Jason Elkins (26:21.358)
Okay, you said, I want to make sure I understand you. said local brew. So when I hear that, I don’t know if we’re talking like a tea or an alcohol.

Phoebe Maina (26:25.552)
Yes.

Phoebe Maina (26:30.733)
no, we’ve already now done alcohol. I mean, we’ve already done tea. Now after the tea, we’ve gone now into the culture of dressing up and then eating the food together with the people. And after the food, you’re given a taste of our local brew, is alcohol, locally made, organically made, my muratina.

Jason Elkins (26:51.874)
the manatee.

Jason Elkins (26:55.662)
So what is more what is more routine I made out of?

Phoebe Maina (26:57.177)
Yes, you got it right. Maratina is made of sugar, is it honey? And also there is honey and there is a tree that produces that juice that is now made together, it’s brewed together and it’s kept for some time until it ferments and then they take, yeah, and it’s only done by men.

Jason Elkins (27:04.887)
Yeah, okay

Jason Elkins (27:17.244)
okay. And you said it’s, wow. that’s okay. We’re going to come back to that. But you mentioned that it’s served in monies or in a hon. What is a hon? Hon.

Phoebe Maina (27:26.468)
Okay.

A horn. In a horn. Horn. Yes. Like a cow horn. Horn. You know, like, ha!

Jason Elkins (27:38.254)
okay. Yeah, my hearing. yeah, of course. One of those. My hearing is bad. It’s not your pronunciation. Horn. Yeah, yeah, no, horn, horn. okay. That’s all right. That is significant. I’m happy I asked because I heard hon and I’m like, what’s a hon? Okay. Okay. So back to the only the men drink it. So what I’m interpreting is traditionally that’s something that the men sit around and drink.

Phoebe Maina (27:44.367)
Sorry, no, no, it’s my accent maybe. Yes, yes, yes.

Phoebe Maina (27:52.953)
Yeah, yeah, you had something else. Yeah, yeah.

Jason Elkins (28:08.536)
The women never drink it. It’s nasty. They know better. They’re smarter than that. Or why do the women, we don’t need to go too far into the culture, but I suspect you’re willing to. So tell me more about that.

Phoebe Maina (28:19.853)
No, I didn’t say women don’t drink. I said it’s only brewed by men. It’s men who brew it, yes. But it’s served to men and women.

Jason Elkins (28:26.729)
brood by men. okay. All right.

Jason Elkins (28:34.07)
Okay. So tell us more about the tradition of only men brew it. Is that like barbecuing? Like some cultures, like it’s the guy that runs the barbecue grill. It’s just his face and it’s, it’s how he kind of checks out. Maybe I’m going to go make some, some, some brew or something. need some buddy, some, some guy times. So they all go down and make it together. Or is that what that looks like? Yeah. All right.

Phoebe Maina (28:40.291)
I think so. It’s a cultural thing. Yeah.

Phoebe Maina (28:55.993)
Yeah, I think it’s a traditional thing and it’s only the men know why it’s only it can only be made by men.

Jason Elkins (29:03.982)
so this, so if you had a couple that you’re doing a private departure for, they go to the village and they want to experience how this is made. Say that would say the name of the drink for me again. I don’t want to get it wrong. Marinetti. Moratina. Okay. So let’s say they like, we wanted to learn how to make maratina.

Phoebe Maina (29:24.167)
Muratina. Muratina. Yes.

Phoebe Maina (29:32.517)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (29:32.778)
So they go down to where they’re making it, but this is a couple and the woman is, the cultural tradition so strong that even if, if she wants to participate, they’re like, no, you can’t, you can watch us, but you can’t actually stir the brew or anything like that.

Phoebe Maina (29:49.807)
Yeah, it’s very strong because the men are very specific. Actually, even the way it’s it’s served by a man. And there’s all the tradition around it. So I don’t think they would allow women into where it’s made. And you know, it’s made over a couple of days. It’s not a day thing. The brew is, yeah, like when we have an occasion, we have to book it like a week before so that after a week.

Jason Elkins (29:59.359)
Okay.

Phoebe Maina (30:19.161)
it’s ready. So there is a way they make it and then how they keep it to ferment for a week.

Jason Elkins (30:20.65)
Okay. I okay.

Jason Elkins (30:25.774)
Okay, so this leads us to the question of how does tourism impact cultural traditions? Because that’s a tradition, it’s always been that way, but I could see a scenario where the village decides, you know what, we need to kind of drop that mail only part of it so that we can offer an experience and we can bring in guests and let them all participate.

and let them all see it because there’s a financial incentive to do so, but they’re setting aside the traditions. That would be one example. Another example might be in Southeast Asia, there may be a temple that traditionally women maybe weren’t allowed to enter the temple or during certain times of the month, they’re not allowed to enter the temple. But then someone says, you know, we’d make a lot more money on tickets if we just drop that rule.

So do you see that? Is that a challenge in Kenya where they will drop the traditions in order to reap the financial rewards or is it just they’re pretty strong on it and they’re like, we’re not changing it for nobody.

Phoebe Maina (31:41.069)
I’ve seen it in some cultures where they drop it for the monetary gain. And I see that as a challenge and as a risk to the erosion of the culture.

Jason Elkins (31:56.706)
Cause honestly, if I went there, if I went to Kenya, I went to a village and they had the tour and they invite everybody in, this is not a sexist thing. I hope it doesn’t sound this way, but let’s just say, go to that experience and my wife, my girlfriend, my daughter is with me. We go have this experience and then.

Phoebe Maina (31:58.279)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Phoebe Maina (32:09.852)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (32:18.112)
A year later, I’m listening to a podcast and Jason’s having a conversation with Phoebe and Phoebe says, yeah, traditionally men are the only ones allowed to be in that space and to participate. I’m going to think, wow. So that experience that I had in Africa when I was there, it was not authentic. Cause clearly they were doing it for, for the guests, unless different villages have different, know, whatever, but,

So I think that that’s one of the values of keeping things authentic. Cause when you start to change things, it really dilutes it and it leaves people feeling like, they’re just, they’re just doing this for us. They don’t, this is not a tradition thing. They just think that we think it’s cool. So they’re going to do it the way we think is cool. Right. That’s a challenge.

Phoebe Maina (32:51.025)
Mm-hmm.

Phoebe Maina (33:04.241)
Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. And yeah, it’s a challenge. actually there is a course I’m doing. one of the things we were looking at the impact and also the risk of the cultural experiences that I’m offering, the risk at hand is that cultural erosion.

But if we work together with the stakeholders and make sure that we protect and also preserve the culture and keep it as it is, because the feedback that I keep hearing from both the…

I mean, the community members and also the travelers, they want things as they are, authentic, authentically. There are some guests that really got offended by being welcomed in one of the villages. I won’t mention the tribes, but it was a cultural, quote, unquote, cultural experience, but it was quite commercial. And the lady was like, she felt so bad because she was welcomed into their bedroom.

And culturally, even in most places, you don’t take strangers into your bedroom.

Jason Elkins (34:09.708)
Yeah. Yeah. I get that. That can, that can present challenges in a lot of different cultures. that’s a really good example. And you know, what I can’t help but think about is we’re talking about cultural erosion and I mean, should we even talk about cell phones and social media? And because we can, as tour operators, we can say, well, we don’t want to do anything that erodes the culture.

Phoebe Maina (34:19.056)
Yeah.

Phoebe Maina (34:32.284)
Mm-hmm.

Phoebe Maina (34:39.206)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (34:39.734)
And then you show up in the village and most of the teenagers are walking around with cell phones and earbuds of some sort in their ears or doing the social media stuff. it’s like, well, it’s really hard to tell what is causing the, I mean, is that something you want to even touch on?

Phoebe Maina (35:01.209)
Yeah, yeah, I think in some communities, they will even tell you, don’t, don’t take photos. actually, these are, I mean, I go around a lot with my clients. And so there is this, I mean, street food. And so you find people cooking on the street and somebody gets intrigued by how they cook chapati.

for example, or some of the traditional foods that we cook. And so they remove their phone and they want to take a picture because they find it cool. And then the locals are like, no, no, no, no, picture. And there are two different reactions. There are those who will say, they’ll get offended. Don’t take my picture. I’m going on with my business. You have no business to take my picture. See, it in your memory. Then there are others who will be like, OK, take me and pay me.

Jason Elkins (35:52.225)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (35:57.836)
Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s a really… And that reminds me, and that’s a really good thing for people to… I don’t know how you always figure it out, but when you go into a new community, I travel lot and it’s almost always solo travel by myself and figuring out…

Phoebe Maina (35:59.751)
You get it. So it’s a balance.

Jason Elkins (36:22.732)
the social norms and like I see fascinating things that I want to capture to share with people. But most of the time, honestly, if there’s people involved in it, I don’t even ask the phone just stays in my pocket because I kind of don’t know how to. I mean, I’m willing to admit that, like I don’t want to offend anybody and I definitely don’t. If they say, yeah, it’s.

Phoebe Maina (36:28.493)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Phoebe Maina (36:38.736)
Yeah.

Phoebe Maina (36:42.853)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (36:48.11)
you know, $5 or whatever, then I’m like, I don’t want to take the picture anymore because now it’s not authentic. just, I’m not going to post a picture of somebody that I paid to take their picture. That’s modeling. That’s totally different. And I’m not knocking them for, you know, it’s their likeness. They should get compensated for it if they want to, but it just, takes away from the authenticity. So with your clients, how do you prepare them? Cause I know there’s other tour operators listening to this as well.

Phoebe Maina (36:53.889)
Exactly. You’re paid. Yeah. Yes.

Phoebe Maina (37:06.787)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (37:15.854)
curious what advice you’d give them for preparing your clients for the whole conversation around people taking people’s pictures. Is that something you discuss ahead of time? Are you providing your planning materials or does it just come up with a guide or how do you handle that?

Phoebe Maina (37:29.383)
No, one, we provided on the materials before they arrive. We have a whole fact sheet what you need to know about Kenya, the traditions, the culture, the money, where not to take pictures, how to behave when you’re in different locations. you see, there are some locations and you’ll be at the beach. But because of the Swahili culture or Islamic culture, they require you to be

Jason Elkins (37:35.79)
Mm-hmm.

Phoebe Maina (37:58.257)
covered, not to go walking there in your bikini and all that. So we have to advise you on what to wear, where, and where not to take pictures, and how to interact with the communities in a respective way so that you respect them and they also respect you.

Jason Elkins (37:59.394)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (38:17.141)
It.

It can be a challenge and probably even more so important to tell, to explain this to them ahead of time is, you know, let’s say I, let’s say I go to the beach and I’m thinking, okay, I need to be covered up and respectful of the local culture. And then I get down to the beach and I see women that clearly, well, clearly is a tough one. You shouldn’t even use that word.

Phoebe Maina (38:26.363)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (38:44.866)
that appear that maybe they’re from there, maybe they’re local, but they’ve got a slightly different approach to things. Maybe they’re not as traditional. And I see them walking down the beach in a bikini. And I think, wow, this seems very…

Phoebe Maina (38:48.219)
Yeah

Jason Elkins (39:01.154)
I mean, this is not a big topic to be discussing, guess, but it might seem like our tour operator led us astray. They said nobody wears bikinis on the beach in Kenya, but clearly there’s somebody who looks like they’re from here wearing lens. So it can be a trick, right, to manage expectations.

Phoebe Maina (39:17.999)
Yeah, yeah. It’s a trick because actually we normally say we will give you all that info before you come. then also we advise, also we train our guides. But at the same time, we give you room for, you know, we have to tell you not everybody will be as advised as you are and expect this to, you know, because this is what the community expects. But we are so many players in this field, so expect

Jason Elkins (39:38.4)
You

Jason Elkins (39:47.404)
Not everybody’s gonna follow the rules. You know, you go there and you’re wearing the head to toe bathing suit and then you see a bunch of Italians that didn’t get the memo and they’re wearing like nothing. So yeah, anyway, I don’t know where I was going with that. Let’s go ahead.

Phoebe Maina (39:47.923)
things to be a bit different. Exactly. Yes.

Phoebe Maina (40:00.359)
I know.

Phoebe Maina (40:06.678)
huh.

Phoebe Maina (40:14.041)
No, actually you reminded me, it’s not really related to clothing, but it’s still cultural difference. I had this guest, they had come from Europe and they wanted to do some camping. And so we get to the campsite and the lady insists she read a blog somewhere and the person said, you don’t need a guard on top of the mountain. And I’m like, it’s a rule, a guard.

Jason Elkins (40:40.716)
You don’t need a guard?

Phoebe Maina (40:43.651)
Yes, because it is in a park. Yes, as you camp. And so she is insisting and she’s causing drama, like, no, no, no, we are not going with a guard. And I’m like, these are the rules of the law.

Jason Elkins (40:44.962)
Like someone to watch over? OK, got it.

Jason Elkins (41:00.814)
What’s the objection? it she doesn’t want to pay the extra money for the guard or what’s or she just wants her own privacy?

Phoebe Maina (41:02.789)
Hahaha

Phoebe Maina (41:07.431)
Once she doesn’t want to pay the extra money and then also, okay, there were three things. She doesn’t want to pay the extra money. She wants her own privacy. And on the third, she had read somewhere a blogger from her country saying he was there alone. He didn’t need a guide. didn’t need a guide. He just went alone. And I’m like, you’re putting my company and also yourself at risk.

Jason Elkins (41:33.898)
It’s, it’s a real challenge within this information age and it gets even more challenging with some of the AI because chat GPT told me that I don’t need a guard. You know, okay. And, and you’ve got, I’m not going to say any names. I’m not trying to apply anything against bloggers or writers or content creators, but you know, you can write up.

Phoebe Maina (41:37.585)
Mm-hmm.

Phoebe Maina (41:46.055)
Exactly.

Jason Elkins (41:59.48)
pretty convincing article about a place having never gone there if you, know, because you’ve got access to resources to research stuff. And maybe, maybe your story about camping in Montana somehow crosses wires with your story about camping in Kenya. And then it says, yeah, you can go do that in a tent without any, you know, it’s completely safe. There’s nothing there a little harder. Yeah. so yeah, it’s gotten, gotten pretty challenging.

Phoebe Maina (42:15.291)
Hahaha

Phoebe Maina (42:22.407)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (42:27.63)
think one last question on this cultural aspects, because I know that’s a huge part. It’s a huge part for me and I know it is for you. And when it comes to guides, guide training, it’s like, how do you take a local guide and train them up or just train them, work with them to work with clients from the US, the UK, Australia?

Phoebe Maina (42:33.659)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (42:56.566)
France, Germany, whatever, without taking the authenticity away of their culture. Because I know when I go somewhere and if I’m going to be with a guide, I really want to connect with them on an authentic level. I want to kind of see what their life is like. But I also realize maybe even from the guide’s perspective, they’re like, I want to appear like a professional.

which in their head might mean I need to be more like my clients. I need to understand my clients better and understanding is always a good thing. But I guess, I guess where I’m going with this, I’ll give an example. When I, one point when I was in the Bahamas, I met a guide that I was going out with for the day and I’m pretty gregarious, outgoing, not, I wouldn’t say stereotypical American, but I’m pretty outgoing.

And I walk up, I stick out my hand to shake his hand and he kind of puts his hand in my hand very loosely, no muscular tension at all in his hand. I’m trying to describe a really soft handshake. And so I shake his hand and he’s quiet, kind of tips his head forward and very, very soft handshake. So I’d asked later on, I asked the lodge manager about that. This was years ago. And he said, it’s, it’s a sign of respect. It’s a cultural thing.

Phoebe Maina (44:08.348)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (44:24.596)
your his client. he hate I don’t know if I want to use the word submissive, but that’s the word that comes to mind is he’s trying to be respectful and submissive to your desires. So he does a very loose handshake. So but if I was coaching him, if I was like, I’m a guide trainer, and I’m a fishing guide expert, and I know all about this, I’d meet him and say, Okay, when you meet your client, you look him in the eyes, you reach out, give him a firm handshake.

Phoebe Maina (44:37.787)
Huh.

Jason Elkins (44:53.898)
And that’s what you do. That’s, you know, if I’m training him to be a guide, but by doing that, I’m, I’m taking away from his culture. So that’s a very, very long question. I’m not even sure it’s a question, but, how do you deal with that? You know, if you’re training guides, that are going to work with your clients to meet the clients where they are, but at the same time, not give up their, their own cultural authenticity.

Phoebe Maina (45:04.487)
yeah.

Phoebe Maina (45:21.095)
One, okay, we already have, we work with trained guides. There is the ones that are already licensed, the safari guides and everything and all that. And at the same time, we connect them now with the local guides who are not the safari guides. And they have to be connected with that local so that they speak their language. Cause some of the guides there that understand the culture and everything about a place, they may not even understand English.

Jason Elkins (45:36.684)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (45:49.036)
Right. Yeah.

Phoebe Maina (45:49.923)
But they very passionate about their place. They are very passionate about their traditions. They really want to showcase and also interact with their guests. So what we normally do as we train them, we just tell them, don’t change anything. You don’t need to change anything. You just need to be yourself. And just like you would explain to me as a Kenyan, if I came here. So don’t change it because it’s a Mzungu. I need to teach you a new word for…

Jason Elkins (46:08.622)
Mm-hmm. Okay.

Phoebe Maina (46:18.811)
white people, we call them Mzungu. Have you heard of that word? Mzungu. Mzungu. Yeah, Mzungu. Yes.

Jason Elkins (46:21.862)
Okay, say it again. Say it again. Mzungo. Mzungo. Okay, it sounds familiar. I had a very close friend that was from Kenya. She used a lot of words. She taught me a lot of words. She may not have said that one directly to me, but yeah, okay. All right.

Phoebe Maina (46:34.575)
Muzungu. Muzungu is very common.

Phoebe Maina (46:42.567)
It’s not a bad, it’s not negative, it’s very positive. Yes, so when now the guests come, we will tell the local guides, treat them just like the locals, like even as you are explaining and showing them these places. And that is why we like…

Jason Elkins (46:46.454)
Yeah, good.

Phoebe Maina (47:02.745)
making the place or the destination as it is. No much adjustment. It’s just preparing. Like for example, if I was visiting a place, they would prepare for my coming because I’m a guest. Quote, unquote.

Jason Elkins (47:07.118)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (47:16.64)
Yeah. And you probably want to, you know, maybe you do this in your trip planning or if you’ve got an English speaking guide along with them that can explain that, Hey, we’ve, you know, the culture is different here. They are not going to treat you the same way that a, a horseback

Phoebe Maina (47:30.906)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (47:36.758)
riding guide in Montana is going to treat you or a surfing instructor in California, it’s going to be different. And we’ve encouraged the guides to maintain that authenticity. Just because otherwise, mean, honestly, some people travel and they get someplace and they see a behavior they’re not used to and they, people are really rude. They’re rude here. You know, I’m in the country of Georgia right now.

Phoebe Maina (47:39.781)
Yeah.

Phoebe Maina (47:50.459)
Mm-hmm.

Phoebe Maina (47:55.675)
Mm-hmm.

Phoebe Maina (48:01.039)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (48:06.414)
I, before I came here, I was told they’re very welcoming. And I’ve learned that welcoming means one thing to me and something different to some other people. They’re very welcoming. Once they get to know you, or if you happen to be staying in their room, you know, Airbnb room, they might be more welcoming than they are if they’re working at the convenience store and you walked in to buy, you know, some bread and cheese.

Phoebe Maina (48:16.097)
Difference to them.

Yeah.

Phoebe Maina (48:30.599)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (48:35.852)
But anyway, yeah, so I would sense that just working with the clients and making sure that the clients understand that there are cultural differences and what you’re getting when you meet somebody that has an extreme cultural difference is what you’re actually getting as an authentic experience. This is a good thing. This is what you paid for. You said you wanted authentic. So don’t come back to me and complain when they don’t, you know, when they don’t treat you like like you get treated back home. Maybe.

Phoebe Maina (48:44.049)
Mm-hmm.

Phoebe Maina (48:51.525)
That is true. Yeah.

Phoebe Maina (48:59.51)
huh.

Phoebe Maina (49:05.177)
It’s true. Actually, just one more example. There is this group that came. There were students from Georgia Tech and I was their guide and I was just new or rather fresh from college. I had not interacted with Americans much. And so as much as they were, they had culture shock. I also had culture shock.

So I get with that, I pick them from the airport. get into the, into the bus and I say, hi everyone. My name is Phoebe. Welcome to Kenya. And they’re like, my gosh, she speaks English. And I’m like, wow, what did you expect me to speak? then, then they’re like, they ask me, do you have a boyfriend? And I’m like, whoa, in my culture, we don’t ask such direct questions.

Jason Elkins (49:24.812)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (49:40.736)
you

Jason Elkins (49:51.054)
You

Phoebe Maina (49:51.929)
you don’t know me, I don’t know you, but anyway, I was just, you know, learning. But the most interesting one was the following day when I got them into the village and in the village there are no toilets, it is pit latrines. And so they asked Phoebe, we want to go to the washroom. And I showed them. When they get there, they get out screaming and they’re like, how am I going to use this? And I would just first of all laugh.

Jason Elkins (50:04.45)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (50:10.99)
you

Phoebe Maina (50:18.073)
I laugh loudly and then I try to, okay, come on, let me show you how to do it. Like I get in and I literally show them how to use a pit latrine. Like this is how you take off your clothes, use quote and you do your thing.

Jason Elkins (50:26.459)
huh. huh.

Jason Elkins (50:32.462)
Well, that’s a really, really, really good example because I could, I’m sure I’ve seen them. could imagine reading TripAdvisor reviews right now and someone talking about going on a tour in a village in Kenya and saying, it was horrible. There were no toilets, da da da da da da. We had to, we had to ask the guy to take us back to Nairobi early because I needed to go to the bathroom.

Phoebe Maina (50:44.774)
Yeah.

Phoebe Maina (50:50.385)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (51:02.21)
And it would just come across as a complaint from their perspective. But then you’ve got the other people like, I want authentic, I want authentic. Okay, great. Here, this is authentic. There’s the pet latrine right over there. Remember when you said you should have them like when they sign up for the trip, when they fill out their reservation form or whatever, there should be a little check block that says.

Phoebe Maina (51:07.387)
Yeah.

Phoebe Maina (51:14.533)
Yes, this is how I do it.

Jason Elkins (51:28.526)
I remember that I’m booking this trip because I want authentic and I, and you have, you have my permission later on to remind me that I said I want it authentic. Okay. Check. Or by submitting this. And actually it would be a good sales point. Cause if I was really wanting to go with the company that offered authentic.

Phoebe Maina (51:32.665)
Authentic. Mm-hmm. I’m authentic.

Phoebe Maina (51:43.687)
I’m adding that. I’m adding that on our materials.

Phoebe Maina (51:51.886)
Yes.

Jason Elkins (51:54.71)
And then they said, okay, you said you want it authentic. We’re going to give you authentic. And you understand that authentic is authentic, right? Then I’d be like, Ooh, these guys are taking this serious. It’s really going to be authentic. So anyway, we’ve, we’ve gone all over the place and I think we could come back and probably have several more conversations. Because I feel like we missed some stuff, but I also want to be respectful of your time and the listener. So let me ask you this. What did I forget to ask?

Phoebe Maina (51:55.024)
Uh-huh.

Phoebe Maina (52:01.435)
Yeah.

Phoebe Maina (52:05.955)
huh.

Phoebe Maina (52:19.254)
Jason Elkins (52:24.468)
should have asked or what do you want to make sure that our listeners know about you, about Dairy Tours and Travel, about Kenya, or just about life in general before we wrap

Phoebe Maina (52:35.263)
I just wanted to say I’m very passionate about Kenya, selling Kenya beyond the safaris. We got incredible wildlife, but at the same time, we have the landscapes, the pristine beaches, white beaches, and above everything else, the people of Kenya. They are

Jason Elkins (52:53.464)
Yes.

Phoebe Maina (52:53.871)
generous, they are hospitable, they got rich culture. You know, we are made up of diverse cultures and that is why we are dynamic as territories because we present all the cultures of Kenya, the 44 plus tribes that speak different language, offer different cuisine, different dances and songs. That is what makes Kenya beautiful above our incredible wildlife.

Jason Elkins (53:20.302)
And I should ask just for clarification, both for me and our listeners, you do the Safari stuff as well. So if you’ve got a client that wants to do Safari above and beyond, addition to Safari, you can do that. So it’s not just the cultural dynamic stuff in addition to Safaris, it’s Safaris as well, right?

Phoebe Maina (53:28.271)
Yes, we do.

Phoebe Maina (53:41.915)
Yeah, actually.

Actually, yeah, it’s a safari tour, on top of it, we incorporate the immersive experiences. Because most of the times, yeah, because most of the, yeah, exactly. I love that we do safari plus experiences. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (53:51.288)
Safari Plus. All right. Very, very cool. We’re going to have a link to your website in the show notes. Anybody that’s listening to this, I know you can hear Phoebe’s enthusiasm and energy in her voice. Anybody that might be watching this can see it on her face. So if you’ve been thinking about going to Kenya, this would be a pretty good time to

Click on the link in the show notes. Go take a look at her website, reach out to her, make sure you tell her that you heard her conversation on the Big World Made Small podcast. I can tell she’s going to take great care of you. Phoebe, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking time to come and share some of your story and let’s do it again soon.

Phoebe Maina (54:33.275)
Yes, I will.

Phoebe Maina (54:39.783)
Thank you so much, Jason. It was fun. I didn’t even realize time ran out.

Jason Elkins (54:45.318)
I know it goes quick when you’re having a nice conversation, isn’t it? So, well, we’ll say goodbye to the audience. And thank you so much. Appreciate you, Phoebe.

Phoebe Maina (54:50.471)
Yeah.

Phoebe Maina (54:56.219)
Thank you so much. Thank you everyone for listening. Bye.

 

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