Guest Bio
Robin Weber Pollak is the Owner and Chief Adventure Officer at Journeys International, a family-owned adventure travel company based in Ann Arbor, Michigan. With a background in experiential education and cross-cultural leadership, Robin has been instrumental in curating immersive travel experiences that foster deep connections with diverse cultures and environments. Her leadership has upheld the company’s commitment to sustainable and responsible tourism practices.
Show Summary
In this episode, Robin Weber Pollak discusses her journey from growing up in a family passionate about adventure travel to leading Journeys International. She shares insights into the evolution of the adventure travel industry, the significance of sustainable tourism, and the role of personalized experiences in creating meaningful journeys. Robin also reflects on the challenges and rewards of guiding a company with a legacy spanning over four decades.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Heritage in Adventure Travel: Building upon a family legacy to innovate and adapt in the evolving travel industry.
- ✓ Sustainable Tourism: Emphasizing eco-friendly practices and responsible travel to preserve destinations for future generations.
- ✓ Personalized Experiences: Crafting journeys that cater to individual interests, leading to more meaningful and transformative travel.
- ✓ Cross-Cultural Connections: Facilitating authentic interactions that promote understanding and appreciation of diverse cultures.
- ✓ Leadership and Adaptability: Navigating the complexities of the travel industry with resilience and a forward-thinking approach.
What You’ll Find on Journeys International’s Platform
- ✓ Custom Trips: Tailored itineraries designed to align with travelers’ unique interests and goals.
- ✓ Group Expeditions: Small group adventures that balance camaraderie with individual exploration.
- ✓ Family Adventures: Multi-generational travel experiences that cater to all ages, fostering family bonds through shared discovery.
- ✓ Rare Journeys: Exclusive trips to less-traveled destinations, offering unique cultural and natural encounters.
- ✓ Virtual Experiences: Interactive online offerings that bring global adventures to travelers’ homes, inspiring future explorations.
👉 Visit Journeys International’s Official Website to explore their offerings and learn more about Robin Weber Pollak’s contributions to adventure travel.
Learn more about Journeys International and connect with Robin at:
https://www.journeysinternational.com/
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Jason Elkins (00:05.918)
Okay, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Big World Made Small Podcast for the Adventure Traveler. So happy to have all of you back here again today. And today, I’m super excited to have Robin Pollak from Journeys International here with us to share her story and to just kind of give us some insights into her life, her business, and some of the favorite, you know, some of her favorite places around the world that she’s had the opportunity to experience. So Robin, so happy to have you here today.
Thanks for having me, Jason. I’m excited. And where are you right now? Where are we chatting with you from? I am sitting at my desk in Ann Arbor, Michigan, where I try to spend as little time as possible. Especially as, so we’re speaking in early November, so I’m not sure what the weather is doing there in Michigan right now. But if I was there in early November, I think I’d be dreaming about the next warm place to go. So what’s the weather there now? Well, fall is a really nice time of year in Michigan.
A couple months from now, I might be itching a little bit more, but I love a good fall day. All right. Very cool. So let’s start with because the first time you and I spoke, you had shared some things about your upbringing that I just thought were super, super cool. And maybe at the time you didn’t realize how awesome it was. But I’m sure you can look back at it. And I just I think you had some amazing experiences. And I’m hoping you’ll share some of those with us. Starting with your parents.
How did this all come about? Because the wheels were already in motion, I think, when you showed up, and then you’ve just kind of taken it to the next level. So tell us your story. Yeah. Oh, well, thank you for asking. Journeys International has been around 45 years, which is longer than I’ve been around. My parents started the company. And I actually think it was kind of an accident that the company got started. They were living in Nepal as a family.
even that was in some ways an accident. My dad had joined the Peace Corps to get over really a broken heart when my mom tried to break up with him. But he sent her a postcard. Yeah, yeah. But he sent her a postcard and it said, I’m leaving for two years in the Peace Corps in Nepal. Hello, hello, do you hear me? And she got the postcard and she said, I don’t think I’m gonna find someone I like as much as him.
Jason Elkins (02:32.842)
and she ended up moving to Nepal to join him. So my parents lived in Nepal for a couple of years. And then when they were done with their stint in Nepal, which had been prolonged, not just two years, but extended for my dad to train other Peace Corps volunteers and also to work for an additional year as a volunteer helping establish the national park system in Nepal.
they ended up applying for graduate schools and ending up at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, where I am now and where they still are. So they would tell these stories about their times in Nepal and their friends would hear them talk about what an interesting culture there was in this Himalayan country and their times in the mountains. And their friends would say, well, this sounds like such an interesting place. Maybe we could go on a trip there during one of our summer breaks. And my parents said,
yeah, you definitely should. And they would even dream about joining for a trip back. And it turned out that the companies that organized trips at the time did it with a philosophy of insulating travelers from what they deemed to be the intimidating culture of the local environment and protecting people from the harsh mountains. And my parents had a different idea of the way it should be done because what they thought was the best part of travel.
was the local culture and the natural environment. Right? Yeah. So they said, you know what, forget about those companies. Why don’t we just organize a trip? And so they put up flyers all around the campus at the University of Michigan. And they said, seeking hearty travelers with curious souls to join a trip to Nepal. And they ended up recruiting 10 travelers plus themselves for a trip
Jason Elkins (04:26.59)
It was a great success. They did a three week trek to Everest Base Camp and they really connected with not only the other travelers but with the Nepalese that led their expedition. They had a team that helped them carry their gear, their cook tent, their cookware, their food and.
on their expedition, it wasn’t us and them and Nepalese and travelers. It was one big, one big group all walking together. And they thought, you know, what if this is the way travel should be done? And what if we could do this again? And what if we could even do this in other places? And so they decided together that they would start Journeys Nepal and they would start Journeys International. And they did it. And they did another trip to Nepal and they started
to find partners in other countries. And then relationship by relationship around the world over the years, they started building up slowly to what we have today. So that’s just how we’ve done it. And because we’ve been around 45 years, we’ve been able to build up to a company that goes to about 70 countries, but it’s only by doing it, you know, with those relationships over time, not because we’re like aggressively trying.
to expand around the world. Oh, we gotta have a trip here. We gotta have a trip there. And yeah, I’ve seen some companies do that. And yeah, so how, so initially it sounds like it started with we’re leading trips. We’re, you know, we’re leading a group.
How long was it that model before they started sending groups on their own with other trip leaders? You know what I mean? Yeah, well, you know, it from the very beginning, it was all about recognizing the value of the local leaders, the value of traveling with local people. So for a long time, and even now we do offer group trips where there’s a trip leader along that helps convene the group.
Jason Elkins (06:31.85)
within, I would say, within about three or four years, we would also, we, I say we, I was, you know, one year old at that time, we, but my parents would start hearing from people who would say, we understand you have this way of traveling where you, you have connections with local people who can show me how they live. And so pretty quickly, they were also connecting individual travelers with local people to…
give them experiences seeing the local way of life. And my parents were among these pockets of people sort of inventing what came to be called ecotourism, culturally and environmentally sustainable travel by giving local people a way to preserve their culture through tourism. And they did it both through group travel and through individual travel. That is so cool. And you’re still doing group, how many group departures is Journey Internet?
Journeys International do on a year now. You know, we really focus for our group departures on the experiences that can’t be done individually. So we only do about 15 or 20 group departures a year. We also have opportunities for our travelers to join group departures on ship-based trips. We don’t own any of our own ships, so we use other companies for those. But other than that, we mostly at this point are focused on
giving travelers experiences that are tailor-made to fit their goals. So we talk to families, we talk to couples, we talk to nature centers or museums and the leaders from those groups. And we say, well, what is it that you’re trying to learn or what are your members want to achieve through their travel? And I just, it’s one of my favorite things to do to understand the goals of travelers for understanding how they fit into the world and then how we craft the right experience for them.
That’s fascinating. And as people progress in their own personal travel journey, their goals change, right? So I think, I mean, it’s maybe the first trip is a group trip, you know, with you guys. And then as they kind of open up to other ideas in other places and they’re kind of what they want to accomplish or where they’re at in their travel journey changes and that’s probably, I suspect you have clients that you’ve been working with for years that started out doing one type of trip
Jason Elkins (08:57.878)
just go a totally different direction. And that’s gotta be pretty cool to watch that, I would think. Yeah, it’s really fun. We have travelers who will say, well, sure, let’s take our kids first to Costa Rica. Or, we’re the kind of traveler that wants to go just to Europe. Maybe we wanna do a trip in Italy. And then after they see how well cared for they are with Journey’s Guides, or they see, the local people are really
friends of friends, you know, I trust journeys and journeys trust them. Well, you know, that was a really interesting cultural experience. And I’m ready to try something else. You know, maybe Morocco is next. Maybe, maybe I’m ready to see what Spain is like. And then they say like sort of steps. It’s not one huge leap to Papua New Guinea, although we do have trips in Papua New Guinea. But
Bit by bit, oh, you know, an African safari is a trip of a lifetime. I’m gonna go there next. And then next thing we know, we’ve got kids playing soccer out in the Savannah with groups of Maasai kids. And the photos that I have of my colleague Florine’s teenage kids with Maasai teenagers playing soccer, just some of the best photos that we’ve gotten from a trip.
It is so cool because you speak about playing soccer. Well, you can go down to the park in your town and play soccer. But what you just described is it’s soccer, but on a whole other connection level, right? I mean, that’s really, really cool. So I can see where someone initially might have thought, well, I’m not going to go to Africa so my kids can play soccer. But that connection, that’s what they’ll remember. That’s what you’re remembering. You’re sharing it.
And it’s those simple things and it might just be sitting down and having a meal with somebody. You know, we do that two, three times a day our entire lives. And then it’s that meal in Papua New Guinea or somewhere that you really just are… It’s life-changing. I love that you’re sharing that. Yeah. And I mean, to share a meal can be one of the richest cultural experiences because eating is so central to everyone’s culture.
Jason Elkins (11:20.378)
And we don’t necessarily think about it at home when we grab food on the go, but when you realize that, you know, an iftar break fast at the end of the day during Ramadan is this family bonding experience and you can be welcomed into a family’s home. My husband and I in a village in Turkey shared a Ramadan break fast with this family.
and we’re sitting on their living room floor with them and we’re waiting for the announcement that the sun is setting. And then we all dig in with our hands into the shared platter in the middle of the table. And as we’re eating, they said to my husband, you know, are you sure you’re not Turkish? Because you look Turkish. He’s like, no, I’m pretty sure I’m not Turkish. And by the end of the meal, they had decided that we would have to pose on their living room couch.
in the traditional engagement photo pose that every Turkish couple poses in when they get married because they were sure that we must have some Turkish roots somewhere that we would discover eventually and we would regret not having taken these photos while we were in Turkey. So we bonded with this family. They dressed us all up in their special engagement photo clothes, posed us on their couch. And now we have these photos taken from our, you know.
our home away from home in Turkey. And we’ll remember this meal that we shared with them forever. And we’ll remember that we have this family connection that could have been if only we were Turkish, which we’re pretty sure we’re not. Well, you might be. You might have figured out at some point, maybe previous life or something like that. But what I heard in that is…
Is it really that, oh, we’re sure you’re Turkish or we’re just sure you’re humans? Like we’re in the same family here, whether you’re Turkish, American, African, whatever, it’s that, that’s the connection, right? That’s the feeling like, oh, you must be Turkish. No, we’re just humans, just like you are. And that’s the value of travel, I think, is, you know, I’ve met so many fascinating people that in the past or on the outside, I’d look at them and say, what do I possibly have in common with them? But when you share a meal and…
Jason Elkins (13:41.23)
you share something that is part of their culture and you’re probably going to share some of your culture with them at the same time. And it’s like a leveling field. It’s like we’re all the same. My first trip to Southeast Asia, we were chatting a little bit before I hit the record button, was over in Southeast Asia. And I went to Malaysia, which is quite a bit different culture than its first Muslim country I’d ever been to. And it did not take me long at all to figure out that,
different religions, different customs, different everything. But at the core of it, we have more in common than we have differences. So your story kind of illustrates that, whether you’re Turkish or not. So yeah. I mean, I love to remind travelers to go in open to the common humanity and attuned for the differences. I do think.
not that we’re all the same, but that we do all have a common desire to connect and that we sense in each other an openness or a closeness. And if we can all go in with an openness to really listen and understand and show a willingness to understand first and to ask questions and not to
predetermined expectations, not trying to teach people something about themselves, but instead to let them teach us about themselves. That’s what makes for a really genuine experience. That’s what leads to that meaningful, deep outcome and connection. That’s when I’ve seen the most transformation during travel.
Jason Elkins (15:39.33)
that just opens up that Pandora’s box, I don’t know if Pandora’s box isn’t the right word, but just opens up the possibilities. So like you mentioned, you know, maybe someone’s first trip is to Europe or something, but then before you know it, they’re exploring more and more, because they realize, wow, there’s so much, so many cool things to learn, so many interesting people to meet. The scenery is important, the animals, the physical environment that you’re visiting.
is important, of course, because those things help shape those cultures that you’re visiting. But for me, it’s always been, I can go to the most amazing place on earth. The scenery is amazing and all this stuff, but it’s always the people in those areas that I remember. Because everything else is just a photo that I could have seen online. It’s the connection that I have with the people is what I cannot replace with a photo or an Instagram shot or something like that. So that’s
That’s pretty cool. And you have a unique, because of your history, you have a unique perspective, because I think one of the first questions I asked you when we spoke was, what’s your earliest memory of what something that we would, you know, most people would consider exotic, strange, your first memory of a trip, that type of thing. So I’m gonna ask you that again. What’s your first memory when you were a child that you’re like, oh, that was kind of different than what most people experienced at that age?
Well, I honestly don’t remember what I said to you when we first talked, but what’s coming into my mind now is this sensory memory that I have from age two of a trip to Israel that we took as a family. And it’s really salient and timely also to share this because as we’re recording, I’m not sure when this will go live, but as we’re recording, Israel and Hamas are engaged in this really upsetting and troubling.
war. But I remember sitting in the Sinai with a camel next to me eating a piece of toast spread with chocolate hazelnut spread. Well, Nutella is really common around the world these days, but that was definitely the first time my parents have let me eat toast with chocolate for breakfast. So it was a pretty exotic cross-cultural experience for me.
Jason Elkins (18:05.546)
But that first memory of that cross-cultural thing ties back to the food conversation we’re just having. So there must be something there to that. That’s pretty cool. And then you continued as a young child, your parents took you a lot of different places. Do you have any other specific memories kind of along the way where you… Maybe the question is, when is the first time that you
your childhood wasn’t necessarily, I don’t want to say normal, but I’m going to say normal. I can’t think of a better word right now. When was that moment? Oh, you mean all the kids don’t do this? That’s such an interesting question. You know, we went to Nepal when I was four. And I probably realized coming back with souvenirs from that trip that the
going to the Bazaar in Kathmandu was not an experience my friends had and bringing back the bangle bracelets and the pieces of textiles that I had chosen in the market were different from the souvenirs my friends got from their vacations. And I certainly realized when I went on a seven month trip in high school with my family and took a semester off of school
Jason Elkins (19:32.562)
I mean, that was so different from what my friends were doing. And I kicked and screamed about that trip. My parents were wise and grown up and realized that it would be a tremendously transformative experience and important for our family. But I just said, you can’t take me away from my friends when I’m 15 years old. How am I ever going to grow up with normal relationships?
And I even said to something you said earlier in our conversation, I said, I’m not going to be anything like you when I grow up. I’m going to take my kids on normal vacations to Disney World. Of course, the irony being that I now do exactly what my parents did for my career and take my kids on exactly the same types of vacations that my parents took me on. And that trip, that seven month trip ended up being one of the most positive experiences I could have possibly had.
and taught me so much about myself and about myself in differentiation for my friends, taught me how to develop my own opinions about the world and how to feel confident in my viewpoints instead of checking everything I thought in reference to what my friends thought. And it also taught me, I think, how to learn about cultures of the world but not to blur the lines
to me has come to be really important. I think to learn about every culture and differentiation and to respect it as its own entity has become something that I really wanna communicate the value of to all of my travelers, because everybody wants to be understood for who they are and not thought of as…
Jason Elkins (21:29.046)
as, oh, like, I think when you meet somebody and you say, oh, I feel so much like you that you’re just like me, it allures the, it makes people feel misunderstood because they hear you saying that there’s nothing unique about what they’re doing or their Buddhism is just like your Christianity. And they’re saying, it’s not, I don’t believe the same things you believe.
Um, but on that trip, I ended up having some really powerful experiences that while I found them beautiful, for example, I, we visited, uh, Buddhist monasteries in Vietnam. And uh, if any of your listeners have been to monasteries in Vietnam, they have some things that are similar to Buddhist monasteries elsewhere, but also some beautiful elements that are distinctive from Buddhist monasteries. I’ve been to elsewhere. For example, they have.
massive incense coils that are these spirals that hang from the ceiling. So it’s not just a stick of incense. It’s a spiral of incense. And they might be four coils, four feet wide and four feet tall that hang from a string from the ceiling. And the coil of incense might be a full inch. The string of incense might be an inch in diameter coiling all the way up four feet from the ceiling and hanging down. And
That is not a sight that you’ve seen elsewhere, most people. And then the monks will pray walking among the coils of hanging incense. And to me, that sight and the streams of smoke from the incense coiling up as the monks with their bald heads and their saffron robes walking among that incense, they’re just a little bit powerful about that. But also so
different from what I had seen in houses of worship anywhere else that I had ever been. And the impact that it had on me was not to be was not to say to myself, I need to find a place where I can pray among coils of incense at home. That in fact, would be not only impossible, but also I think I was just struck by how different it was from what I would find at home
Jason Elkins (23:56.762)
um to be uh like that was an irrelevant conclusion to come to but the conclusion for me was wow the peace that their religion is bringing to them to these monks is so profound that I would like to find something in my own life that could bring me such peace and so I was inspired to understand
Jason Elkins (24:26.422)
to their own tradition and to find something in my own tradition that could bring that to me. And so we could, I could see a point of common humanity, but I was also differentiating between what is mine and what is theirs and how can we respect each other, but also live in distinction and each find our own place in the world. I love that you said all that in a sense, you know,
I was speaking a little bit about commonality earlier and I loved it. I don’t think you were intentionally challenging anything I said, but I’m so happy that you said it because it adds such a deeper layer to kind of what I was trying to say, but wasn’t saying it so eloquently because yeah, we all want that piece, but we all get to find it in different ways. We all want that connection, but we get to find it in different ways. And now, yeah.
That was pretty cool. I’m happy you shared that. And as I listened to you say that, cause you were, was that the trip when you were, the seven months that you took off from school on that trip? Yeah. And look what you came back with, right? And I have had similar experiences with my son. I took him summer before last, we spent his entire summer break, two and a half months or so in Central America, Guatemala, Mexico, and-
Frankly, there were some moments when he’s like, this is boring. It stinks here. I want to go home. My friends are doing this. My friends are looking for jobs and this and that. There were other moments that he was pretty excited to be there. But at the time, I didn’t feel like he was completely grasping it and enjoying it quite as much as I was. And then this past summer, we did Southeast Asia, and Malaysia, and Thailand. We spent a little time in Japan.
And there was a little bit of that again, he’s getting more open to it. And then probably about when he went back to school this past fall, he was, you know, they kind of do this like icebreaker type of conversations with the other students so they get to know each other, kind of like, what did you do this summer? Type of, you know, thing. And I think Jackson finally clicked like, oh, this is actually pretty cool what I get to do with my dad, because you know, they,
Jason Elkins (26:50.658)
come up with five things about yourself you share with the group, and he’s sharing that he’s been to 10 countries now and some of the places and the other kids are like, wow, that’s kind of cool. So a little bit of it’s ego, a little bit of it’s like, oh yeah, they think I’m cool. So that’s good, but he’s also realizing that he’s getting to see things that other kids don’t and his view of the world is just expanding. And there’s a game called GeoGuessr. Are you familiar with GeoGuessr?
No, I haven’t heard of that one. This is pretty good. It’s basically, it’s on a website and they use Google Street Views and you push a button and it drops you in some random place on Google Street Views. It’s international around the world type of thing. And you can navigate using the Street View, like you can drive down the street or whatever. And the idea is that you look around and try and guess where you are, right? It’s actually really fun. Might sound a little boring, but it’s really fun.
And the other day, Jackson, I’m in Columbia now, and he called me on a video call. He said, dad, I was playing GeoGuessr, and they dropped me right in front of Pedaling Street in Kuala Lumpur. And he’s like, I knew it immediately. And he’s like, I’ve been there, I’ve been there. And a couple other times, he’s like, oh, dad, I found this place. We went there last summer. I was like, it’s cool. And he’s getting excited about the traveling, and he’s starting to see that, you know.
I’m not talking about cultural connections so much, but I’m saying that when you travel with your kids, I think it really opens them up to the world and gets them excited. And it makes them feel like things are not so far away. Big world may as well. I think that’s exactly the power. And there’s so many levels that everybody processes, which everybody processes travel, but one of the really important impacts with kids and with everybody is this global self-confidence that we build in our kids.
And in addition to the individual potential for connections, just that potential to build self-confidence interacting with people who are different from ourselves. You know, that, how can we hope for any kind of peace in this world if people don’t feel comfortable interacting in places that are not their home and with people who are not like that? Sometimes it’s like a part of town.
Jason Elkins (29:17.314)
Like people are like, I don’t even want to go to that part of town. They’ve like, they’ve got their isolate, you know, isolated bubble and just going across town or walking into a, I lived in, my son is in Phoenix. I lived there for several years. I think there’s people in Phoenix that won’t walk into a carnicería, you know, which is the Spanish butcher shops. And I’m like, they’re the coolest place in town. And when you can get to the point where you can walk into places that you don’t know what to expect and like, Oh,
that was a cool experience, I think I’ll try that again. And that’s just on a local level. So then when you take that out to internationally, you travel to other countries, the confidence thing is amazing, right? It’s like when you get to the point where you’re like, oh, I’ll go there. And you’re not like, what, I don’t speak the language. I don’t know if I’m gonna fit in. I don’t know if it’s safe or whatever. And when you get to the point where you’re willing to pick up and step outside your comfort zone in one area of your life, is how you do one thing is how you do everything.
when you can step out of one area of comfort in your life, it opens up so many other possibilities. Job, career choices, relationship choices. There’s so many areas of your life that get better when you’re willing to step past your comfort zone. And travel is just a great way to do it. It’s just one way to do it. Travel can be a great way to learn it too. I think there are folks who think that they should feel comfortable doing everything within.
50 mile radius of their house and if they don’t they just shy away from it. So practicing stepping outside your comfort zone while traveling can be a great way to learn to do some of those things because you’re supposed to be outside your comfort zone. You’re supposed to be doing unfamiliar things when you travel and so you know everybody understands. Well if you’re in a country that’s far away from your home everybody understands if you mess up some etiquette or
Jason Elkins (31:13.55)
practice getting it wrong while you’re far away from home and everybody understands. And then you’ll be a little bit more comfortable stepping into an unfamiliar scenario closer to home. And you’ll already have that ability to cross boundaries or to do something new. I think travel is a great way to build that life skill of doing something unfamiliar.
Oh yeah, so even when you’re back home, you just kind of walk through life. I’m gonna say less scared because that’s the word that’s coming to my mind. Less scared of what’s out there because, so for example, I had traveled, I worked in the tourism business for a long time. And two years ago, I decided I’m gonna go do adventure travel full-time and I basically sold everything I had, bought a one-way ticket to Columbia. And in hindsight, I recognized, oh, I chose Columbia because there was, it was
outside of my comfort zone. I didn’t speak any Spanish. I knew the people here, I’m in Columbia right now. I knew the people here mostly didn’t speak English. And it was like, well, if I can go to Columbia and figure it out, then the next place will be easier. And it just kind of grows on itself. And now I’m pretty much like, probably could drop me anywhere and I’ll figure it out. There may be some hiccups, but I’ll figure it out. So it’s super important.
The one of the questions, boy, I have so many questions for you. I think we could probably just speak forever. And I’m curious, did you have a point, cause at 15, you had a moment where you’re like, no, I don’t wanna be like you, mom and dad. I wanna live a normal life. I wanna raise my family and take them to Disneyland. I don’t know how long, I guess I’m curious, how long did that last? Was there a period in your life where you really did step away?
I don’t know your history. When you finished school, did you go do something else for a while and then realize, no, I need to come back? Or how would you describe your journey? Yeah, I think actually that trip in Asia for seven months turned me around in some ways quickly, not turning me around to a commitment to join the family business, but to the mindset that…
Jason Elkins (33:37.218)
cross-cultural experiences and experiences that take you outside your comfort zone are incredibly valuable. I’ve always been really independent though and eager on my own to step outside my comfort zone, to redefine myself and see how that goes. And my parents were never the kind of parents to push me into conforming to their expectations or to ask me to do…
a job that they expected of me. So I did after college go off and do some other things before I returned to the family business. And I had some jobs, full-time jobs in the summer camping industry, as well as working with university students in leadership development and training other university professionals in running travel programs for college students. At which point,
took a step back and said, this seems a little nuts to work for other organizations running travel programs. So that was the moment when I decided to go to graduate school, get a business degree and use that as a training program for learning all the ins and outs of the business, of the family business. I had learned the product my whole life and business school became the,
stepping stone to return to the business of the business. So that the two years of business school I think were very valuable for us in getting the staff comfortable with the idea of the transition. My parents were already starting to think about their retirement plan and what was going to happen to the business and they were
They didn’t place any pressure on me, but they were relieved that I was interested because it was hard to figure out what the other options would be if I wasn’t going to return to business. I’m sure I can imagine scenarios where, you know, family, maybe the family business is, I don’t know, restaurant, retail stores, the more traditional businesses. I’m not discounting any business because I realize it’s business. And
Jason Elkins (35:57.246)
Some businesses, you can go to a business broker and say, okay, I’m ready to retire. Can you help me sell my business? And it’s kind of easy to value it. And you’ve got real estate involved or whatever. And it’s like, okay, that’s my retirement plan. So if your kids don’t wanna take over the business, there is kind of a plan B. And with tourism, it can be a little different because a business like yours is really about your family, I think. That’s my perspective, looking at it from the outside. You’re following, initially,
were followers of your parents. So if somebody totally different came in, bought the business and said, I want your email list, I want your website and I’m gonna just take over, I want your contacts. That’s the, there’s not a lot of certainty there that the business is gonna continue with the same success that you’ve had in the past because you lose that continuity is kind of what I’m thinking. Yeah, you know, we’ve watched transitions and buyouts in
a number of businesses within our industry. There are brokers that help with sales within our industry. There are ways of vowing the business, there are ways of structuring deals. I think the most important factor was that for me, it was really hard to think about the business exiting our family. And so I do have a brother, but he was not at all interested in the company. And I really cared about…
the essence of the business, the values of the business. And so it doesn’t really matter what the other options were. To me, the core values of the business are really important and the potential for travel to change people is really important to me. Yeah, yeah. And also, you know, my personal passion is building transformative experiences that help people understand where they fit into the world. So…
why would I give up the opportunity to take over an established entity that already has a successful foundation if what I want to do is continue to build experiences for people that can essentially achieve what I’m most passionate about? It just, you know, there may have been plenty of other options for the business and there may have been plenty of other options for me, but just this seems like such a lot. It seemed like
Jason Elkins (38:21.718)
a very logical match once I really gave it my attention. Yeah. And I can imagine, or it seems like maybe those few years, you weren’t completely doing something completely different, but those few years when you were kind of, I guess I’m going to say doing your own thing, were probably really beneficial because you picked up some skills and did some things that you might not have done. But you just said, OK, mom and dad, I’m going to lead trips for you forever, and I’m not going to do anything else. I’m just going to lead trips. And then when they’re ready to retire,
You’re like, okay, I’m really good at leading trips, but maybe I didn’t pick up some of those other skills, those business skills, the leadership training skills, all those things that you just happened to pick up that obviously merged really well with where you’re at. But is that an accurate assessment or what do you think? If you were talking, if you were speaking with someone right now that’s 15, 16, 17, their parents on a adventure tour business,
And they kind of like it, they grew up around it, but they kind of also feeling a desire to go do something on their own. And I know this is a really weird question because there’s so many variables. In general, what would your advice be to somebody like that? Yeah, there’s so many variables. And if somebody knows they wanna get involved in adventure travel, then there’s a lot of great adventure travel companies out there that you can, with which you can pursue opportunities. If you wanna pursue a career in
immersive experiences, the realm of organizations that are delivering transformative, immersive experiences is much broader than travel. And I love to expand people’s awareness of that, right? Because the educational organizations that are delivering transformative experiences is vast. And working in summer camping and working with Hillel, the Foundation for Jewish Campus Life,
really taught me a lot about the principles of experiential education and about how to design experiences well. I think what I have learned about facilitating group experiences, about building an experience with a narrative arc and an educational arc to it, about starting with goals in mind and not just helping people check off
Jason Elkins (40:51.178)
the things they wanna see, but how to sequence those things, how to think about the story behind the experiences and the through line, how to think about who should be taking everybody to the places that they’re seeing, the questions that should be behind them, the resources that we share to inform those things. I just think everything that I learned about the
The subtle, the unsaid, and also the explicit and overt elements of education that are components of travel, it was invaluable. Hillel is, you know, whether travelers are Jewish or not, I just, I have to say how smart an organization Hillel is. They, there are so many innovative people who work there who are thinking about it.
community building, identity building, and education, and working there was one of the most formative experiences in my career. I’m impressed by you, just by the multiple levels that you have stepped into and realized in the tourism business. Not everybody does that. Some people in the tourism business just have really outgoing personalities. They’re adventurous, they’re curious, and they’re fun to hang out with, they’re fun to go travel with.
And I can hear in your voice as you describe that, you’ve gone a few levels deeper, maybe than some of your, I say competition colleagues or whatever you want to describe it. And that’s pretty cool. That’s nice to hear that. What do you think is the biggest thing right now in adventure travel that we should all be paying attention to?
I mean, in the world, we all have to be paying attention to how we take care of our planet. Without that, none of us have anything. Yeah, it’s kinda hard to go travel and explore when things are falling apart. Yeah, and I think there’s so many levels on which we all have to be engaging questions of sustainability and regeneration. To me, for travelers, driving…
Jason Elkins (43:12.862)
innovation in aviation is the key. And I think there’s a lot of people who are talking about how to just fly less, but I don’t think that we are going to have a successful future if we just talk about reducing flight. I think we have to be talking about sustainable aviation fuel. I think we have to be talking about carbon recapture. I think we have to be talking about more efficient
flight with less emissions and less consumption of fuel. So I think that making airlines the bad guys in the industry is not going to be our successful path forward. I think it’s partnership with airlines and moving toward a more sustainable form of aviation instead.
Jason Elkins (44:13.314)
I mean, I have a whole different platform I could stand on, maybe on a whole different podcast around how we need to be partnering with big industry to drive innovation instead of just depriving the biggest companies of funds. I think they’re the ones who are going to be driving the most impactful innovation. But I think, you know, we need to be
putting funds into innovation and aviation is right now the place where we need to be innovating within travel in order to make global human connection possible. How do you, I’m not sure how to ask this question because I’m not sure what the question is, but it kind of prompted me to think about, you know, the difference between the mass tourism, the resort hotels, the cruise ships,
I guess I would maybe make the argument that aren’t always contributing a lot to that cultural connection. There are people taking their bubble back home and just moving their bubble to a beach in Playa del Carmen or, you know, not knocking Playa, it’s a great place, but there’s that type of travel which, and those people are on the airplanes as well, you know, and then there’s the other people that are on an airplane to go.
know, do a truck to base camp in the Himalayas. Again, I don’t know what the question is there, but how do we like, I don’t know, you’ve given this a lot of thought, I can tell. Are you able to pull anything out of what I just said? Yes, I can. Good question, Jason. Yeah, thank you. You’re so kind. I think that there’s an element of education for everyone, right? So
there’s an element of provocation in asking all travelers, what’s the purpose in your trip and where’s the best place to go for the experience you want to have, given the impact that you will have on our planet. So is it possible for us to ask,
Jason Elkins (46:32.902)
all travelers to consider their impact on the planet in deciding whether they need to go to the Maldives for their beach vacation. And, you know, actually maybe Playa Del Carmen is the answer and not the problem because it’s a lot closer than the Maldives for a beach vacation. Oh, man, you I must ask a great question because you’re coming up with a great answer. I didn’t
I hear you. I like the way you’re thinking. Okay. You know, I mean, depending on who the traveler is, I guess if the traveler is coming from, you know, depending on where the travelers coming from, Playa del Carmen is closer. I’m thinking that we’re talking to Americans, but if we’re talking to people who are doing business in Singapore, then maybe they should be going to the Maltese, you know, but it’s all so it’s all personal calculation and you have to make a personal you have to come up with your personal answer.
Jason Elkins (47:32.386)
to, we have to trust people to be helpful. You know, one of our core values at Journeys is assuming positive intent. And I think that is also a part of the path forward that we can’t write off people who aren’t taking a trip that looks exactly the way our ideal trip would look.
There are people who are at a different place on their journey where even if maybe they’re taking a trip where they stay at Club Med, they still may be going on a tour as a part of that trip that’s exposing them to people who are different from the community that they would interact with in their hometown that’s teaching them more about the world than they would be learning otherwise. And I don’t discount that experience.
I was really impacted by a session that I attended at a travel conference a couple of years ago that taught me about the differential impact of 10 small ship cruises with a hundred people each versus one large ship cruise with a thousand people. The environmental impact of that one large ship cruise is much smaller than those 10 small ship cruises with a hundred people each. Much smaller. Good point.
And so I think it’s easy for us to make, to pass judgments about people who are participating in mass tourism. But culture isn’t just traditional culture or culture experienced in an elite way. The whole world is full of lots of different cultures, right? Like the culture of suburban.
Minneapolis is a culture and the culture of rodeo towns in Texas is a culture. And the culture of the Hill Tribes of Thailand is a culture. And we just need to keep really open minds about how we understand the facts of the world as we work for innovative solutions.
Jason Elkins (49:56.322)
to preserve our planet and also to interact with cultures that are different from our own. That’s great. I’m happy you shared that because you actually caused me to challenge some of my own preconceived ideas. And I trust that if that’s the impact you’re having on me, other people listening to this will get this as well. I know that I don’t personally want to be on the big cruise ship with a bunch of people. It’s just not, I’m not going to be, it’s interesting. Cause there’s a lot of stimulation, I’m sure.
on those trips, but it’s not the stimulation I’m looking for. I’d read last night, I finished recording some interviews last night, I’m in this really interesting little neighborhood south of Medellin, Columbia. And I walked up the street to this little, I guess restaurant, this guy’s cooking sausages and arepas on his front patio. And there’s a kind of a bench and you can sit on the bench and there were seven or eight people there were all just sitting there eating. That’s what I, I love that type of thing, but that doesn’t.
mean that the person that’s getting on a cruise or going somewhere isn’t having their own experience and benefiting from it. They’re traveling with family, it’s an opportunity to connect with family. There’s all kinds of things going on. So thank you for challenging me on that. Yeah, and you know, I don’t personally advocate for mass tourism for most people. You know, when a cruise ship with 3,500 people disgorges those people on a shore excursion.
it tends to have a negative effect on the communities along the shore. My personal feeling is that the world is generally better off with more smaller travel groups and less mass tourism. I just think that our assumptions aren’t always right. And also that people on the whole are also better off seeing more of the world as opposed to seeing less of it.
And so I want to make sure we ask all the questions and understand the impacts as deeply as possible before we steam forward with the solutions that we assume are correct. Yeah. No, you’re absolutely right because I’m going to use an example of Belize. I worked in Belize, managed a very, what we call a Ventures Tour Lodge, 30 miles offshore, scuba diving, fly fishing, all that stuff.
Jason Elkins (52:18.722)
but we’d go into town and where the cruise ships would drop off their cruise passengers. And you could see, this is like, we’re 30 miles away, totally different worlds, totally different experiences. I’ve had so many opportunities to chat with people that say, oh, I went to Belize, we went on a cruise and we went to Belize. And oh, well, what did you think of it? And I guarantee that the answers that you get from the person that went on the cruise ship and spent a day in Belize are totally different.
than the travelers that were able to go maybe with a small group or CSUN. So not discounting either experience. But I was always excited to talk to people that had gotten, that did not go to Belize on a cruise ship because they’re excited. They’re like, oh my gosh, it was amazing. The people were great. Da da da. And sometimes the people that were on the cruise ship were like, yeah, Belize city is kind of a, you know.
not so nice, da da, there were just a bunch of people selling T-shirts and this and that, it is a different experience. So if anybody’s listening to this that has traditionally done the larger mass tourism experience, I would definitely encourage you to at least dip your toes in the water and go do something, maybe with Journeys International or really anybody that they hear on this show. Yeah, and if you’re concerned about the
challenge of trying to figure out how to get past the excursions that are offered by a cruise ship. I think it’s helpful to realize that there are resources out there to support experiences beyond what’s available from a cruise ship. So journeys or companies…
like us tour operators that’ll listen to exactly what you do want and people who will still give you an equal amount of support for longer experiences or farther afield experiences and people who probably will be even more helpful because they’ll be there just for you and your one travel companion, you and your six travel companions. So the support is there. I think the challenge can be finding it and
Jason Elkins (54:31.922)
As we push forward into the future, as we continue to innovate, there’s even more interesting ways of finding it. So you can even get personalized support from like chat GPT saying, I know right? This is exactly who I am. Tell me who I should talk to find this exact kind of experience that I want. So I just would love to empower people to go seek out those smaller experiences exactly personalized for them.
Because the resources are there and there’s also, the resources are there and it also we’ve shifted towards, because the resources are there, a lot of us get in the habit of using booking.com or, you know, Cloud Velocity or Kayak. It’s like just so easy that maybe sometimes we forget that, you know, maybe another Google search, maybe get to the second page of the Google results. Or like you said, you know, resources like AI, it’s…
If anybody listened to this that has not touched chat GPT or any of that stuff, I would encourage you to go to that to pick up. Like if you have an idea of a trip somewhere you may want to see, just put in a question, just ask something like, Hey, I’m thinking about, I like this stuff. See what kind of results you get. I’m not saying necessarily plan your whole trip around it. I would obviously suggest you reach out to someone like Robin and her team. When it comes, when you’re ready to send off a deposit, because chat GPT, as far as I know, it doesn’t have any way to take a deposit. A joke, but.
Um, but yeah, it’s with chat GPT. They’ll just steer you up. So, but yeah, you know, what’s great with chat GPT though is ideas. It’s like, because, you know, we have so much stuff in our head. Sometimes it’s hard to get outside of our head. We have this preco and you just put something in a chat GPT, even if what chat GPT says is you, you might be reading it and thinking, this is ridiculous. Obviously a computer wrote this, but there were two or three things in there. Like I’ve never heard of.
you know, oh, I can go to Tanzania and climb Mount Kilimanjaro and learn how to pick coffee beans and make coffee and all these ideas that you might not have came up with had you just gone to Google and said, you know, I want to go to Tanzania. So it just use it as an idea resource and then go ahead and close the box and then take the ideas that you got from it. And it helps you figure out what you’re searching for on Google a lot better is what I’ve been doing. So I’m happy. Happy you brought that up.
Jason Elkins (56:58.218)
You want to, we we’ve chat a lot. I feel like we could probably talk. I have like a whole podcast episode for all kinds of different things. I would love to do that. Um, and first time we spoke, you told me about something that was really cool. Then I just, I’ve been talking to other people about it. I’m excited about it. I went and watched the solar eclipse and just outside of monument Valley a few weeks ago, when I was back in Arizona and I was chatting with this lady about a trip to Antarctica.
And I was like, yep, I’m going. And I said, I talked to somebody recently about Antarctica. I’m so excited and it’s gonna be my seventh continent. Da da da. I was all ramped up because of the story you told me. So I’d love for you to share that story a little bit with our listeners about traveling with family, big milestones, and just cool stuff that you get to do or that you got to do when you went to Antioch.
Yeah, well, coming full circle from my parents starting the company, my dad, who is not involved in operations, neither of my parents involved in daily operations of Journeys International anymore, but my dad wanted to make it to his seventh continent. So we announced that we would be offering a founder’s journey to Antarctica. And we had such a huge response of travelers who wanted
Jason Elkins (58:23.37)
we thought we might want to have two trip leaders along, especially just because the trip kept getting pushed back with COVID and my dad is in great health, but he’s also getting a little older and just never know. So we said I would go along too. And my dad and I together with 20, I think 22 of our travelers got to go on a journey to Antarctica earlier this year.
And it was fantastic. It was such a joy to be able to travel alongside my dad again, to be able to enjoy an expedition in each other’s adult company with our travelers and to be reminded of what a great storyteller he is, of what vast travel experience he has. To celebrate our seventh continent together, it was number seven for both of us. And also to…
just recognize the precious resources of our planet. I think investing the time and the environmental resources to get there is a big deal. So we thought really carefully about what it means to go there and the stories we wanted to tell when we got back about what are fragile, the treasures of our fragile environment, why we need to act as conservation advocates. But that…
that journey is one that I will treasure forever and that I will share in stories with my kids, with other journeys travelers, and I would encourage other travelers also to think about what a trip to Antarctica would mean to them and to consider adding it to their own future travel wish list. What I love about that is you’ve combined two things that I’m excited about. One is Antarctica because I, you know, it’ll be my seventh and the other part is the multi-generational
and travel. And I’m not sure if there’s a term for it, but I think it’s common for people to say, oh, I want to, we started the conversation with, I want to take my kids somewhere. I’m going to challenge anybody that’s listening to this to take your parents somewhere. I’m going to get all emotional. So unfortunately, there’s a podcast that people won’t see the water tearing up in my eyes, but it’s, if you haven’t done that with, you know, when you’re an adult and you’re like, okay, I’m adventurous, maybe mom and dad are our adventures. Maybe they’re not.
Jason Elkins (01:00:45.646)
But I’ll tell you what, do a trip with them. I took my mom to Africa. We went to South Africa and Zambia several years ago. And I didn’t kind of really get that it was such a big deal. I was like, okay, mom, I’m going to Africa. And she’s like, oh my gosh, I’d always wanted to go there, but I’m scared, I’m afraid, da da. And I was like, okay, well, why don’t you go with me? And I didn’t think that much of it at the moment that we started talking about. Once I got there, I realized, oh wow, this actually is really, really cool.
Every lodge we stayed at thought we were married. So we always had to push the beds apart. You know, we’d show up at the camp and they’d have flower petals on the bed and the hot bath drawn for us. It was all very romantic. We did Robos Rail. We shared a little cabin on Robos Rail. It was really romantic, but it was so special. And to this day, she still talks about it. She named her dog Safari. She got a new dog after that trip. It was such a profound thing.
After I spoke with you about going to Antarctica with your dad, I mentioned to my dad that I’m thinking about doing Kilimanjaro in January, because I’ve got a client that I’m working with there. And he said, oh, Jason, I’ve always, that’s on my bucket list. And that would be a fantasy for me to go with you and sign Kilimanjaro. I’m like, oh, that’s cool. I’m just hearing that. Like my dad and I are not always that close. We don’t share a lot of memories and experiences together anymore. And it was just that, I got excited.
and thought of your trip. And then, oh, and when I mentioned that I mentioned you when we were watching the eclipse, my son overheard me and said, dad, can I go to Antarctic with you? You know, it’s like, that’s cool. So I’m just so happy that you mentioned it the first time we chatted because it’s super, super powerful. And yeah, please, anybody that’s listening to this, if you can figure out a way to make it work, take your mom and your dad or your mom or your dad or.
Whatever, I would definitely encourage you to take them on a trip. And- The best thing about those family trips, especially for people who don’t necessarily talk a lot, but create memories by doing together, things go up on trips. Even the best planned trip always has little things that are, that go wrong just a little bit, that don’t go according to plan. You meet somebody quirky, you see somebody doing something silly, and-
Jason Elkins (01:03:10.758)
Those little memories from trips become the things that you repeat as family inside jokes over and over for the coming years. And so I love those memories and those family jokes that get repeated from travel. It just, it becomes the stuff of family bonding for decades. It does. You’re just, you’re not gonna ever forget that. And how many, so a lot of us as adults, we visit our family for holidays maybe. You know, how many Christmases have you gone home
you know, spend time with your family or holidays or family emergencies that caused you to go spend time with your family. There’s probably a lot of them. And if some, and I know I’ve had them. And if someone asks me, what’s your fondest memory of your mother as an adult, as you know, oh, that’s easy. It’s like, it’s not Thanksgiving. It’s not the Christmas sitting under the tree. It’s that having that experience of, you know, sitting on that train.
pulling out of the station in Johannesburg with my mom, who was like for weeks before we got there. What happens if my flight’s late? What happens if my flight’s early? Cause we were meeting up there and all that fear and anxiety, and then you get on the train and you’re like, oh my gosh, here we are, you know, getting ready to take a train across South Africa. And it’s so, so special as you know, and I’m sure you’ve led probably a lot of trips with father, sons, mothers, daughters, all kinds of mixes of, and it’s…
So fun to see that. So I’m happy we were able to discuss that. So Robin, is there anything, I know we have more we could talk about, but is there anything that I should have asked you, anything that you really wanna make sure people understand about you, your business, the world, anything at all before we wrap up? Oh my gosh. Well, as you said, so much we could talk about, but to us at Journeys, the essence of adventure is just-
stepping outside your comfort zone enough to see the world through different eyes, to shape your perspective a little differently and find that discovery zone that potentially transforms you. And so I hope people can adventure a little deeper and we’ll help you do that if you come to us at Journeys, but I hope that everybody can do that every day a little bit. Tell me again, the flyer that your parents handed out when they decided they were going back to Nepal.
Jason Elkins (01:05:31.566)
the wording on that flyer, and I know you know it because you rattled it off like you, what was it that they put on the holder? Hardee Travelers and Curious Souls. I’m gonna write that down. I’m gonna use that somewhere in my own marketing. I mean, that’s brilliant. So thank you so much, Robin. Really appreciate having you here and you’re just a wealth of information and appreciate your generosity to share it with everybody listening. So- Thanks for having me Jason.
Look forward to seeing you again soon in some exotic place or Ann Arbor, Michigan. I don’t know where that’s gonna be, but stay warm this winter. Thanks, Robin. You too. Thanks, Jason, bye.
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