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Episode #180: Sally Guillaume

Founder

Undiscovered Mountains France

Episode #180: Sally Guillaume
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Guest Bio

Sally Guillaume is the founder of Undiscovered Mountains, a specialist adventure travel company based in the Southern French Alps. Originally from the UK, Sally’s path has included work as a science teacher, outdoor pursuits instructor, and BBC journalist before her love of mountain life led her to France in 2005.

Through Undiscovered Mountains, Sally helps travellers experience a quieter, more authentic side of the Alps through walking, cycling, climbing, canyoning, ski touring, snowshoeing, cross-country skiing, wildlife tracking, and tailor-made mountain adventures. Her work is rooted in responsible tourism, local partnerships, and a deep respect for the landscapes and communities of the Southern French Alps.

Sally’s commitment to sustainable travel began long before she founded the company, including undergraduate research into tourism’s impact in Ladakh. Today, she continues that mission through Undiscovered Mountains France, which was among the first French travel companies to achieve Travelife certification.

Show Summary

In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Sally Guillaume, founder of Undiscovered Mountains, about building a life and business around the mountains of the Southern French Alps. Sally shares how her early love of snow, outdoor adventure, and wild landscapes eventually drew her away from city-based work in the UK and into a lesser-known region of France where she could raise her family close to nature.

The conversation explores what makes the Southern French Alps different from the more famous Alpine destinations. Sally describes a place shaped by authentic villages, locally run guesthouses, strong French and Italian cultural influences, a stable mountain climate, and a slower style of tourism that extends far beyond the traditional ski season. From ski touring and cross-country skiing to via ferrata, canyoning, hiking, biking, wolf tracking, and local food experiences, Undiscovered Mountains introduces travellers to a more personal and less crowded side of Alpine adventure.

Sally also reflects on the challenges of starting a tourism business in a new country without speaking the language, raising a young child while learning French, and slowly finding her way in the adventure travel industry. Her story is one of determination, resilience, and a deep belief that travel can support both visitors and the communities they come to experience.

Key Takeaways

  • ✓ The Southern French Alps offer a quieter, more authentic alternative to the better-known Alpine destinations.
  • ✓ Undiscovered Mountains focuses on year-round mountain adventures rather than mass-market ski tourism.
  • ✓ Travellers can experience hiking, biking, climbing, canyoning, via ferrata, ski touring, snowshoeing, cross-country skiing, and wildlife-focused trips.
  • ✓ Sally’s move to France was driven by a desire to build a family life surrounded by mountains, seasons, and outdoor opportunity.
  • ✓ The region’s villages, locally owned accommodations, and food culture are a major part of the guest experience.
  • ✓ Sustainable tourism is central to Sally’s work, including a focus on supporting local communities and reducing dependence on seasonal ski tourism.
  • ✓ Starting a business abroad required Sally to learn the language, understand local systems, and build partnerships from the ground up.
  • ✓ The company’s success has grown from deep local knowledge, strong guiding relationships, and a passion for sharing lesser-known mountain experiences.
  • ✓ Sally’s story highlights the persistence required to turn a lifestyle dream into a long-term adventure travel business.
  • ✓ Responsible adventure travel can help visitors connect more deeply with a place while supporting the people who live there.

What You’ll Find on Undiscovered Mountains

  • Year-round adventure holidays in the Southern French Alps
  • Walking, biking, climbing, canyoning, via ferrata, and multi-activity trips
  • Winter adventures including ski touring, snowshoeing, cross-country skiing, and wolf tracking
  • Locally run accommodations, authentic villages, and regional food experiences
  • Tailor-made trips designed around ability, interests, season, and travel style
  • A strong commitment to sustainable tourism and responsible mountain travel
  • A trusted local DMC for other tour operators, offering reliable on-the-ground support, logistics, guiding, and first-hand destination expertise

Learn more about Undiscovered Mountains France and connect with Sally at:

https://undiscoveredmountains.com

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Podcast Transcript

This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.

Jason Elkins (00:01.132)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. So happy to have each and every one of you back here today and super excited to have my guest. Today we’ve got Sally Guillaume. She’s the founder of Undiscovered Mountains. Sally, did I say your last name right? It’s so nice to have you here and I introduced you as the founder of Undiscovered Mountains, but right before we push the button, I had asked you about that.

Sally Guillaume (00:17.74)
You did, yes, thank you. Hi Jason.

Jason Elkins (00:30.062)
because I know you’re in France and sometimes you use France as part of the title of your company. And I’m only saying that so if someone sees Undiscovered Mountains France somewhere, they make the connection, probably the same person. Sally, just real quick, I guess I already mentioned you’re in France. Is that right? You’re on the call from France right now, right, where you live?

Sally Guillaume (00:55.276)
Yeah, yeah, so I’m in the Southern French Alps in a town, well near to a town called Gap, which is the southern edge of the Ecrins National Park for people that know the French mountains. And that’s where our undiscovered mountains is based. So we’re based in this southern part of the French Alps.

Jason Elkins (01:12.59)
Very cool. We’re going to discuss a bit about kind of how you got from where you were to where you are now. And before we do that, let’s give our listeners kind of a clear idea of what you do with undiscovered mountains. What is undiscovered mountains? Maybe the 30, 60 second elevator pitch. And then we’re going to dig into how it came about.

Sally Guillaume (01:32.534)
Okay, so we basically organise all different types of adventures in the mountains in the Southern French Alps. in the summer we don’t do kind of the mass tourismy type things like ski holidays. So we try to do everything that is not that. So it’s more things like in the winter ski touring, cross-country skiing, winter multi-activity holidays, snow-shoeing holidays. And then in the summer we do, well, not just the summer from spring right through to the autumn, because we are…

Our whole thing is about trying to be kind of four seasons. So we do walking, biking, cycling, via ferrata, climbing, mountaineering, canyoning, horse riding, multi-activity. basically anything that you can do in the Southern French Alps, we do.

Jason Elkins (02:18.606)
I was gonna ask you, was like, other than ski, well, you mentioned skiing, but on two different kind of sides of that. One is the typical ski holiday that you think of people go to the ski resorts and downhill skiing and all that stuff. You don’t do that, but you do the cross country skiing and probably, and so.

Sally Guillaume (02:38.167)
Ski touring, yeah, backcountry skiing, probably think of it as in the States, yeah.

Jason Elkins (02:42.304)
is when you say, I’m just curious because I grew up in the Rocky Mountains and I had a lot of friends that were into, they would call it back country stuff, but they would like throw downhill skis on their back and climb up to the top of a mountain and then ski down. But there’s also cross country skiing. So when you say back country skiing, what is that, what’s your definition of that?

Sally Guillaume (03:05.237)
Yeah, so it’s a bit of semantic thing and it depends where you come from. But basically, for me and in Europe, cross-country skiing is relatively flat on skinny skis. So in the Winter Olympics, you can see people doing skating. So there’s a skating style and then a classic style where you do one in front of the other in light tracks. You’ve probably seen that.

Jason Elkins (03:22.765)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (03:32.78)
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Sally Guillaume (03:33.772)
Yeah, so that’s what I would call cross-country skiing. And then you’ve got ski touring, is like what you probably know of as backcountry skiing, which is where you have skis that look like downhill skis and you stick skins on the back and then you walk up the hill wearing the skis with your heel out and then you take the skins off, stick your heel in and you ski down when you get to the top. But it’s all off piste. It’s not in resorts. Yeah, so you get really away from, yeah.

Jason Elkins (03:57.283)
Ciao!

Okay, all right.

Sally Guillaume (04:02.637)
So yeah, I suppose, you know, it’s all the sort of alternative winter activities to the sort of downhill. We do do downhill skiing, but it’s just not our thing. It’s not like our biggest, you know, we try to focus on alternative stuff and also more natural stuff as well. we also do a wolf tracking trip, which is quite a unique trip in the winter. We don’t do it in the summer, we just do it in the winter. So yeah, I suppose it’s just slightly alternative winter activities in the winter and in the summer it’s more

classic what you’d think of in the mountains in the sun or all the different sort of activities that you can do.

Jason Elkins (04:37.518)
Okay, and I, there’s the activities that you mentioned and I can kind of imagine that. You mentioned most of them probably quite specifically, but I also imagine if I was going to the Alps, there’s probably fun food type of stuff, culinary experiences, the villages, stuff like that. So is that incorporated into most of what you do as well?

Sally Guillaume (05:03.063)
Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. And we need to, we should do more about pushing that forward. But yeah, I mean, where we are is a very, very authentic part of the Alps. So it’s not, it’s not a mass tourism destination. It’s not as well known as the Northern Alps. So, and we work with a lot of kind of more kind of boutique, locally run farmhouse type guest houses and locally run hotels who naturally have

a passion for food and use local products because that’s kind of what this area is about. So when people come on a trip with us, it’s part of the trip, that kind of immersion in the local culture. But it’s not something that we really promote, actually, we should promote it more, but we don’t. But yeah, it is definitely very, very much, you you come here and you’re, you come here and you’re, you know, you’re in someone’s, you know,

Jason Elkins (05:51.244)
Well, I’m happy I asked.

Sally Guillaume (06:00.334)
We just don’t work with big chains. So anywhere you stay is going to be unique. It’s going to be like a special place that’s just run by that family with their character and their way of doing things. yeah, so that’s the kind of feel, I suppose. And that’s why I liked this part of the Alps, because when I first discovered it, that’s what I felt about it. I felt this is a really authentic, real part of the Alps. people, know, when I first came here, which was 20 years ago,

it was a real novelty to be English. There were no other English people here, or very, very few other English people here. Whereas, for example, at that time in the Northern Alps, not that I’m dissing the Northern Alps because it’s got its qualities, you’d walk down the street in Mawson and you’d hear English being spoken. Well, people here, that does not, there’s no way. So I just felt like it was a lot more of a real, less of a…

It’s a more off the beaten track. It’s a little bit more difficult to get to, which is great because it means that it’s still off the beaten track and people who come here appreciate that. But yeah, definitely does have that feel of being how the Alps, how people imagined the Alps before it became overrun with tourists.

Jason Elkins (07:18.83)
That was, yeah, I get you. I was gonna ask you that directly and then you pretty much just shared all that. So that’s very cool. Where do most of your guests come from?

Sally Guillaume (07:31.917)
So most guests come from the UK, Holland, kind of Northern Europeans. And then we have a few guests that come from Canada and the States, some Australians, some South Africans. I mean, the website’s in English and French, so obviously attracts mainly English people. We don’t do any marketing in France. We get the odd French person as well, but our main marketing is in English. So it’s mainly Anglophones from around the world. But I’d say a majority from…

from England. actually just going back to what you said before, just a little anecdote, I suppose, talking about, you know, why do people come here and the kind of quaintness of it. So we have, run cross-country skiing holidays and we had a couple or family who came from Canada. And I was like, why are they coming from Canada where you’ve got like hundreds of kilometres of cross-country ski piece to come and ski here in the, you know, in the Southern French Alps. So I asked them the question, I was like, you know, why?

why did you come here when you’ve got like the best cross-country skiing in the world in Canada? And she’s like, well, it’s not at all the same. It’s completely different, you know, because apparently I’ve never, well, I have now, but when I’d spoken to her, I’d never skied in Canada. And she said that when you go skiing in Canada, it’s just in the forest and you just go for miles and miles and miles. But there’s not the kind of like, when you come here, where we are in the Southern French Alps.

you start off in a village. So you’re in a village and there’s houses and there’s a shop or a restaurant and there’s a ski shop and you hire your skis and you go out and you’ve got mountains. not in the forest in a monotone sort of environment. It’s a much more, you feel like you’re much more in a kind of cosy quaint village in the Alps and with the mountain scenery. So that was what they liked about it. And I’d never even thought about that. For me, that was just normal, you see. So that’s, you know, it kind of goes back to what you were saying before.

Ha ha ha.

Jason Elkins (09:25.25)
Yeah, I get that because, know, if I’m from Canada and I grew up there, I spend my life there, I probably go skiing there. It’s a totally different thing to go do that in France. You know, it’s like everything. It’s like everything. If you end up bicycling, maybe you live in Colorado and you like to ride your bike in the mountains, but the idea of going to, you know, the Alps.

Sally Guillaume (09:38.742)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (09:49.354)
and riding your bike and staying in these cream villages, it is a totally different experience. Still centered around an activity, but there’s so many other reasons to go besides just the activity, it sounds like, so yeah.

Sally Guillaume (10:01.761)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it gives you access to a whole new culture.

Jason Elkins (10:06.658)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I’m gonna just could be straight. I really know nothing about the French Alps and you know, as someone from the States, I travel a lot. I’ve been to France. I haven’t been to the French Alps, but honestly, if somebody said, you know, I don’t know, if I met somebody and they said, I’ve always wanted to go to the French Alps, would like what?

Really? Like, I’m not even sure. I would just assume the French Alps were the side of the Swiss Alps that were closest to France. I have no idea. This is just somebody from the States just sharing what I don’t know about the French Alps. So I guess, I guess I’m, where I’m going with this, it looks like there, seems like maybe the marketing.

Division of you know visit France hasn’t done a great job talking about the French Alps I guess is what I’m trying to say to the US to the US market because in the US in the US we all know about the Swiss Alps that’s there you know, maybe the Italian Alps, but Is that a challenge for you? Do you like if you? Speak to people from the states or if you go to a show somewhere or if you’re traveling and you talk about the French Alps Do you get that?

Sally Guillaume (11:07.465)
No, I think…

Jason Elkins (11:24.76)
kind of that weird look like, what’s the difference between the French Alps and the Swiss Alps? Do you get that?

Sally Guillaume (11:30.444)
No, not so, I’ve not really come across that. But then I suppose the shows that I’m going to, it’s people that are connoisseurs of mountains rather than just… But what we do get is people, when you say we’re in the French Alps, they immediately think of Mont Blanc, Chamonix and Morzine, which are the most promoted parts of the Alps, the French Alps, in the Aiguille de Midi and those kind of things, which might not mean anything to you, but if you’re into mountain tourism, they would.

Jason Elkins (11:36.662)
Europeans. Yeah, that’s true.

Jason Elkins (11:47.246)
Okay.

Sally Guillaume (12:01.117)
So my job when I go, when I’m hearing that is to share the difference between that part. We do actually do trips in that part of the Alps, but it’s not our bread and butter if you like. We’re much more focused in the Southern French Alps as I was saying before, which is from Morseigne we’re kind of like a four hour drive away south. So that’s the difference. It’s not that far, but it is far enough for it to be a different area. And it has a very different…

Jason Elkins (12:19.245)
Okay.

Sally Guillaume (12:26.87)
culture because our part of the Alps is right on the border also of Italy. So we share a border with Italy and then further north is the border with Switzerland, if that makes sense. But we’re not in that. So our part of the Alps has a really strong Italian influence as well as the French influence and it’s further south. we get the kind of, in the summer we get the Mediterranean climate which

Jason Elkins (12:38.744)
Mm-hmm.

Sally Guillaume (12:53.738)
but mountainified, so it’s warm and sunny. We don’t get loads of rain in the summer, it’s quite dry, but we get the heat storms at end of the day, so it still stays green. But it’s a really stable climate compared to, for example, in the northern Alps, I keep going back to northern Alps, where you can have like four or five days of rain consecutive in the summer, that just does not, it doesn’t happen in the southern French Alps. And we’ve still got…

Jason Elkins (13:00.91)
Okay.

Jason Elkins (13:05.262)
Okay.

Sally Guillaume (13:21.516)
high altitude so in the winter we’ve still got plenty of snow because that’s another kind of thing people think oh it’s southern French Alps so there won’t be any snow well no actually that’s not true and we have some of the best cross-country skiing areas because we’ve got high altitude cross-country ski areas in the southern French Alps so we’re you know in the Carin at you know 1800 and what 2000 meters so yeah I mean we’re very blessed with a fantastic climate in the southern French Alps and that is one of the biggest selling points I think of the area.

Jason Elkins (13:52.194)
You did a great job of telling me that I’m not your ideal client, which is a good thing.

Sally Guillaume (14:00.214)
You’re very welcome.

Jason Elkins (14:02.562)
Because you’re right, you’re like, well, when I speak to people that into mountain sports and mountain stuff, then they all kind of get it. So that’s good. I’m happy because I’m learning a lot. And I’m gonna ask you another question that probably shows that is even though I grew up in the Rocky Mountains and I’ve spent a lot of time in the mountains. is it, obviously it’s cold enough in the winter that it snows and the snow doesn’t melt.

But is it like super cold? it just cold enough to have good snow? it, mean, compared? Yeah.

Sally Guillaume (14:37.611)
Oh, can get really cold. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it can, you know, be like minus 20 in January. I mean, that’s more rare, that’s rarer now than it used to be. But, you know, with climate change and everything. I mean, the main difference, I don’t know if you’re going to ask me this question about climate change, but the main signs that we’ve seen here with regards to climate change is that we’re getting more, we’re actually getting lots of snow, but the snow line is higher. So where, where

Jason Elkins (14:44.598)
okay. Yeah, so.

Sally Guillaume (15:07.527)
it changes from being snow to rain, if you like, is higher, that altitude is higher. So some of the lower altitude ski resorts struggle, that’s the same everywhere in Europe. And there have been closures all over Europe of lower altitude ski resorts. But so far that hasn’t actually affected us particularly, because we’re not really based in ski resorts, if that makes sense. But it does affect tourism generally, yeah.

Jason Elkins (15:12.167)
Mm Okay.

Jason Elkins (15:36.718)
Yeah, sure. Absolutely. You know, there is something that I’m sure is in the Southern French Alps. I don’t know. If not, you’re going to tell me. But I grew up around hot air ballooning and I’ve got a lot of people in my social networks and I think a lot. I think they do quite a bit of ballooning in the Southern French Alps. Is that right?

Sally Guillaume (15:50.027)
Sally Guillaume (15:59.98)
Yeah, they do. That’s really no one’s ever asked me that before. But yeah, in fact, where where I where I where I live, just I can see it from where I live. like, look, I’m looking out the window, I can see it. There’s an aerodrome called Tallard, which is a famous aerodrome for all air sports like parachuting and all of that all of that kind of stuff.

Jason Elkins (16:01.89)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (16:20.664)
Mm-hmm.

Sally Guillaume (16:23.819)
and there’s a hot air balloon company that start from there and often in the morning we see the hot air balloons out the window. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, it is.

Jason Elkins (16:31.392)
Okay. I guess I do know one thing about the Southern French Alps. And I wasn’t even sure, honestly. There used to be a tour operator back a long time ago when I was much younger that would…

Sally Guillaume (16:36.734)
Yeah!

Jason Elkins (16:47.064)
do like week long tours around the Alps and Europe and it was called the Buddy Bombard Society I think. I don’t know if that rings a bell but they used to you know take a group for a week or so and go to different places and fly balloons and I just I don’t know. Anyway do your so if I’m the first person that’s asked about that I take it it’s not a popular activity with your clients.

Sally Guillaume (17:01.888)
wow.

Sally Guillaume (17:10.599)
It’s not in our portfolio, no, but people could ask us and we could organise it. Yeah, it’s just never, yeah.

Jason Elkins (17:19.854)
I was just curious. It can create a challenge because it’s very weather dependent. I don’t know, maybe you have, you know, ideal weather there, but that can be the challenge to building that into itinerary areas. know, OK, we’re going to do this Tuesday morning and then the weather is not right. Then it can be a challenging issue. So anyway, we’re not here to talk about balloons, but very cool. But I suspect you also have like paragliding and.

Sally Guillaume (17:34.643)
Yeah!

Sally Guillaume (17:43.416)
Hahaha

Jason Elkins (17:48.318)
some you because you mentioned some of the other aerial sports as well so all right it’s time to figure out how the heck you got there because you’d mentioned a couple things 20 years ago and you were you know there weren’t very many English people around so let’s go back and figure out how you got from wherever obvious it was in France so tell us where are you from originally

Sally Guillaume (17:48.565)
Yeah.

Sally Guillaume (18:09.685)
So I’m British, so from the UK. I’m not really from anywhere in the UK because I moved around a lot and actually also moved around to other countries as a child. So I lived in Norway and Denmark and America actually in Miami and the UK and in the UK and Scotland and England. So like kind of all over the place. But I probably spent the longest of my time in Manchester in the north of England as an adult before I moved to France.

Jason Elkins (18:37.326)
Okay. Okay. What was, what was, cause I suspect the childhood and the moving around had a lot to do with the choices you’ve made in your life. So let’s, let’s discuss that more. What was, what was going on that had you moving so much?

Sally Guillaume (18:39.307)
So that’s where I’m from.

Sally Guillaume (18:46.891)
Yeah

Sally Guillaume (18:52.971)
Well, a very, to be very, so both my parents married and divorced probably four or five times each. And I kind of went around with variations of them. And my dad worked in the oil industry at one point, and that’s where Norway came in. Anyway, I won’t bore you with the whole personal thing, but yeah, so moved around a lot. And yes, so living in Norway was probably my influence where I realised where you have like,

Jason Elkins (19:03.346)
okay. All right.

Sally Guillaume (19:21.339)
Like I can remember walking to school in the snow and having this whole kind of thing about the, you arrive at school and you take your shoes, your wet, know, snowy shoes off and you wear these woolly socks and sliding down, our school was on top of a hill and everybody used to slide down the hill on a toboggan after school to get home and jump on each other’s toboggans and stuff and snowball fights and this kind of, I now understand what it was. I think it was like a form of handball sport that I didn’t really understand what it was at the time, that it was like rugby but wasn’t quite rugby in the snow.

Jason Elkins (19:38.038)
Mm-hmm.

Sally Guillaume (19:50.783)
So yeah, all of these kind of like memories and that’s where I first ever tasted skiing, like cross-country skiing was in Norway. So I just discovered that I loved the snow and snow sports, which I’d never experienced in the UK, obviously. That was probably where I first had that kind of taste of, I want to live somewhere with a proper season, with proper winter and a proper summer, because they have really good summers as well in Norway.

Jason Elkins (20:07.16)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (20:17.038)
Right, around what age were you in Norway? Just trying to get an idea.

Sally Guillaume (20:20.17)
12, 13, yeah.

Jason Elkins (20:24.96)
Okay, and that can be a time, a very influential time for most people. know, whatever you’re doing when you’re around that age, that can be a big influence as well. Did you, when you first moved to Norway, did you like the winter or did it take a while for you to kind of get used to it and enjoy it?

Sally Guillaume (20:43.16)
no, I think I loved it straight away. I think that’s where I was supposed to… Yeah, and I still love the winter. And I love that feeling of the coldness on your face, where everything’s cold and fresh, but you’re warm because you’re dressed up. I really like that feeling.

Jason Elkins (20:44.844)
Really?

Jason Elkins (21:04.078)
I could see the look for anybody that’s listening and not watching the video. Yeah, I can see the look on your face. That’s very cool. You obviously like it. If we had a time machine and I could go back and met you when you’re 12 and I said, what do you want to do when you grow up? What do you think the answer would have been?

Sally Guillaume (21:25.898)
Oh my god, I don’t know, actually I have no idea. I definitely hadn’t thought about running a travel company. It probably would have been, I don’t know, what would I want it to be? I actually don’t know, probably a doctor or something like that.

Jason Elkins (21:27.662)
Do you remember?

Jason Elkins (21:34.21)
Hahaha

Jason Elkins (21:40.59)
Do you, well, do you remember, yeah, do you remember at any point in your childhood thinking you wanted to do something? mean, what did you wanna do when you grew up? you remember, do you have any specific memories of that? Not necessarily 12, I’m just.

Sally Guillaume (21:54.033)
No, I didn’t. Yeah, no, I don’t. I had a real problem trying to decide what I was going to do when I grew up as I was growing up. So so yeah, I started off I kind of got into the outdoors. So I moved back to England after being in Norway and Denmark and kind of got into the outdoors at that point, even though I’d been in the outdoors a bit and done skiing and stuff. hadn’t when I went to the outdoors, I started going camping and hiking in the mountains and stuff in the UK. I’d never really done that before. And that’s when I sort of discovered that

Jason Elkins (22:00.63)
Okay.

Jason Elkins (22:20.354)
Mm-hmm. Okay.

Sally Guillaume (22:23.304)
when I was in my late teens and I thought this is, I love this, is fabulous, this is me. And that’s kind of when I started realising, well I’d like to work in this field. So I ended up doing a course which was a degree to be a teacher, a science teacher, and you did all of the outdoor qualifications at the same time. So you became a climbing instructor and a kayaking instructor and a mountain lead and all the kind of first entry level instructor qualifications. And the whole purpose of that degree was to

be able to go into a school and be a science teacher because obviously that’s where your salary comes from really, but then be able to do all the extracurricular activities like do the Duke of Edinburgh Award or run the climbing club or all of that kind of stuff. So that was what that, that was the, that was the degree. So was a four year degree. So I did that and really enjoyed it. And then of course then I was a qualified teacher. So it was like, well, what do I do now? So then I became a teacher.

Jason Elkins (23:04.462)
okay.

Sally Guillaume (23:21.156)
and did that for a bit and sort of decided that I didn’t really… Well, I quite like teaching. I do like teaching and I have had some recent teaching experience here too in France and COVID, but kind of rediscovered, actually I do like this. But at the time I didn’t like it because it was all the paperwork and having to justify boring stuff about teaching. anyway, decided I didn’t want to do teaching. So then I…

But I quite like this sharing of information, this kind of… So I ended up retraining to be a journalist, which I thought at the time would tick those boxes of being able to communicate, if you like, and share stories and stuff, but not have the pressure of having to do a lesson plan.

Jason Elkins (23:58.154)
Jason Elkins (24:10.126)
Let me, Sally, let me ask you a couple of questions around this, because this is fascinating. If at the time when you started that program, four-year degree program, to be a science teacher with all these other skills that you could use, kind of outdoor leadership skills, maybe you’d call them that, if you’d had the option of just doing four years outdoor leadership part without the…

Sally Guillaume (24:10.932)
So that was kind of.

Jason Elkins (24:37.216)
Training to be a teacher, but maybe maybe it was a four-year degree to be an outdoor leader to start your own Tourism company somewhere would you have chosen differently?

Sally Guillaume (24:50.536)
Yeah, possibly. I did do a lot of outdoor instructing. I mean, I did do that. But I think the level that I was at, wasn’t, you know, it was entry level. So to get to a kind of higher level would have required moving somewhere like the Alps at the time and, you know, living in the mountains and doing, you know, you know, much more hardcore stuff than I was doing at the time. I didn’t

Jason Elkins (25:09.87)
Mmm.

Sally Guillaume (25:18.312)
visualise that at the time. That wasn’t kind of something that was accessible to me or didn’t think it was at the time. So that isn’t the route that I went down. But yeah, maybe if different doors had been opened or different opportunities had been opened, then yeah, maybe potentially I would have gone down that route. But I didn’t. So I went back. I went to be a journalist. And actually, did, did, was, it was a broadcast journalism. So it was great, actually. And I loved that job. It was a fantastic job. But I still had this yearning to

live in the mountains and then I kind of, I don’t know if you know, when I was working in, you you’re working in TV, I was working for the BBC. So you’re stuck in a city, you can’t work in the BBC and live in the mountains. It just doesn’t go together. No, so there I’m like, I did really like the job. It was a dream job, you know, it was really exciting, of variety, know, active, out and about, finding stories, that kind of stuff. I did enjoy that. But

Jason Elkins (25:47.534)
You

Jason Elkins (25:59.214)
doesn’t work does it yeah yeah

Sally Guillaume (26:15.017)
Yeah, it was gnawing away at me that I couldn’t be in the mountains. I every weekend I was out going into the mountains, but, you know, it wasn’t my part of my daily life. And then, you know, getting a bit older, starting to think about having a family and I’m thinking, right, no, I want my family to be, I want to bring my family up in the mountains. I definitely want to do that. I don’t want to bring them up in the city. So that was kind of like the turning point of like, you know, with my, now my ex-husband, but at the time it was like, we need to think about how we’re going to do this. And that was when

the decision was made that we would move to the mountains to bring up our family. At that time we were looking at all options. It was like, know, New Zealand, the Lake District in the UK, the Alps, and the Alps won because it was the best mountains, but we didn’t speak any French. So that was the big barrier and there was the big sort of like, my God, are we going to be able to do this not speaking French? So, that’s kind of…

Jason Elkins (27:04.974)
Okay.

Sally Guillaume (27:13.641)
we decided that that’s what we were gonna do. we spent, and this was not something that we did quickly, that we spent quite a few years coming to the Alps, looking at different parts of the Alps, deciding where we were gonna be. And we knew the Southern French Alps because my ex-husband is a big kayaker, a whitewater kayaker, and it’s a big area for whitewater kayaking. So that’s how we knew about the Southern French Alps. when we came here, we’re like, yeah, actually this is so much nicer than

other parts of the Alps, you all the things I saying at the beginning of the podcast and that’s when we decided, is in fact the actual day, the day of the decision, I can even remember the day of the decision, so we were, we’d gone to go and look at a, an old building that could have been a potential bed and breakfast and because that’s what we thought we were going to do originally, so we were there and it was in a little village called Devil We and we’d gone to go and look at it and we staying in a

in a bed and breakfast and we didn’t speak any French. We were trying to talk to this woman in the bed and breakfast who didn’t speak any English about the area and stuff and it wasn’t going anywhere. And she said, look, hang on, hang on. And she brought this person in called Mariana, who’s now a really good friend. So Mariana was English and she lived in this village. And so we said to Mariana, you know, we’re thinking of moving, want to move to the house, want to up a bed and breakfast. You know, what do you think? We’re seeing this property. And she said, we said what we thought we wanted to do and everything.

Jason Elkins (28:28.853)
Yeah.

Sally Guillaume (28:43.44)
And she said, no, no, no, I know where you need to go. drive over the Côte d’Inoilly and you need to go to the Champsour Valley because you’ve got everything that you need there. You’ve got the white water, you’ve got the climbing, you’ve got the, you know, all the things that we were interested in. So the next day we drove over the Côte d’Inoilly, which is a famous Tour de France cycling course. It’s quite dramatic. And it was pretty dramatic. So we were like, wow, this is cool. And then we arrived in Saint-Bornay, which is the village, the first village you come to. And I can just remember like,

arriving in the village and there was a minibus like in front of us in the car park and all these people getting out the minibus and there were ropes hanging out of rucksacks and you know walking boots dangling and and I just thought yeah this is it and and the village itself was just so beautiful it was really it’s actually now I know a bit more about the village it’s an old you know medieval Roman you know village and it’s still got remnants of that in there like stone places where they were

Jason Elkins (29:20.165)
ho, ho.

Sally Guillaume (29:38.755)
weigh their, their corn, stone things. Anyway, but so yeah, so this village was really pretty and I just thought, yeah, this is, this is, is perfect. So that’s, we decided that that was what, that was it. That was the place. And then, and then

Jason Elkins (29:42.734)
you

Jason Elkins (29:52.482)
Were you, because I think that your story will inspire people. You know, I think there’s a lot of people that are in a place doing a job that’s just not right for them. And maybe it’s for family reasons or whatever reasons they want to kind of leave everything behind and move to a new place. So my question, if you don’t mind, is were you still working for BBC? What were you doing back home?

while you were looking for the place. And how did you and your ex do that? Honestly, just how did you do it? it’s, to just, yeah.

Sally Guillaume (30:31.879)
Yeah, so well, it coincides with getting pregnant. I mean, basically, we made the decision that we wanted to make the move. And when we made that decision, and we found where we wanted to be, it was a case of what we’re to do. And originally, our original plan was to set up a bed and breakfast because that was what everybody did. There was a program on the telly at the time called No Going Back, and it was all about people doing that. So that was kind of our inspiration. yeah, by the by. we so I had my maternity leave. So that was the

Jason Elkins (30:49.08)
Right?

Jason Elkins (30:54.914)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (31:01.518)
Okay.

Sally Guillaume (31:01.575)
that was the cushion of being able to move and have a little bit of a salary before having nothing. So that was the sort of cushion. But obviously then of course, actually I was having to look after a baby, which was quite time consuming. So yeah, so.

Jason Elkins (31:03.906)
Hmm.

Jason Elkins (31:09.292)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (31:21.294)
They don’t give you maternity leave so that you can leave the country. So I get that, but good for you. You took advantage of it. Awesome.

Sally Guillaume (31:25.865)
No, yeah, but no. So yeah, so we moved when I was on maternity leave and we very quickly realised, because this is before Airbnb and booking and all the rest of it, when we started to think about, because we’d found this place we were going to invest in to do a bed and breakfast. But then when we started to look into it, we’re thinking, well, are we going to, nobody’s heard of this place. Nobody’s heard of the Southern French Alps. So where are we going to market this? No one’s, you know.

Jason Elkins (31:54.796)
Mm-hmm.

Sally Guillaume (31:54.813)
And that’s when we realized actually we don’t want to do the bed and breakfast. We want to market this, know, sell this place and create trips here, you know, have a tour operator. There were no tour operators basically. So that was how it all started. So we ditched the bed and breakfast and instead of having to invest all of our house sale into a new, it cost us two grand to build a website and that’s how it started. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (32:01.87)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (32:19.502)
Okay, very cool, yeah. And it makes sense, because if there are no tour operators and nobody knows the area, a bed and breakfast would be pretty hard. because it’s hard to just, now it’s different, because people like yourselves came in and set up tour operations and helped get the word out there, and I’m sure the bed and breakfast owners in the Valley really like that.

Sally Guillaume (32:29.863)
Yeah, well at the time, now…

Sally Guillaume (32:42.377)
Yeah, I mean, it’s a complete different world now with, you know, now you just put it on booking and it’ll be fine. But, you know, or not just other places that you can put your thing, but yeah, there’s plenty of them. But yeah, it’s a different world. But yeah, so that was kind of how it started. So there we are. We arrived when we arrived in San Bonet. Annie was four months, that’s our baby. She was four months old and we literally arrived and

Jason Elkins (32:47.618)
Well, yeah.

Jason Elkins (32:53.1)
Yeah, there’s, it’s a different world for sure. Yeah.

Sally Guillaume (33:10.845)
had nothing. We’d sold our house and everything in the UK and we arrived with nothing, didn’t speak a word of French. And we ended up staying with a couple who, one of the very rare English speaking people who actually still speaks to me in French, a Scottish guy called Donald and Agnes who ran a bed and breakfast, they’ve now retired. But we stayed with them and I lived in one of their rooms for like six months.

Jason Elkins (33:17.141)
So cool.

Sally Guillaume (33:39.013)
at the bed and breakfast and they really helped just like, learning French, speaking to us in French and just helping me. Because obviously, know, I had no idea about tourism. I absolutely no idea about anything to do with tourism or running a business or any of those things, all speaking French. So it was all bringing up a baby. you know, everything was, you know, everything was, everything was new. So it was very…

Jason Elkins (33:55.362)
Yeah. All right.

Jason Elkins (34:04.184)
Sally, everybody that’s listening to this right now wants me to ask the question, what was your ex-husband’s background? What was he doing during this? Did he have any experience in any of this stuff? Was he enthusiastic about it? So tell us as much as you can about that to kind of help people understand what you guys were going through. Not everything, because I know he’s your ex. We don’t have to go into all the details.

Sally Guillaume (34:24.786)
So not everything, no, no, no, I won’t get to all of it. I’ll be very brief. So he came from retail background. So he was in retail, like he worked for Aldi, you know, if you know Aldi, the supermarket. So supermarket, retail, basically. So he had no idea either. Didn’t speak a word of French either. yeah, I mean, basically, cutting a very, long story short, we got divorced after a few months and he went back to England and I stayed. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (34:52.042)
okay. All right. So it doesn’t play that big of a role. I mean, it does, but…

Sally Guillaume (34:55.354)
No, so he, so, so we, we, we, didn’t work out. He went back to England and then I was faced with this decision. I still had some maternity leave. I had three weeks of my maternity leave left and I had this decision to make of, okay, we’re getting, we’re getting divorced. I’m in France. I still don’t speak French, undiscovered mountains with a baby, undiscovered mountains, you know, hadn’t really done anything at that point. So what should I do? And I decided to stay, which was, which was the right decision, obviously now.

Jason Elkins (35:12.236)
with a baby.

Sally Guillaume (35:24.636)
really happy I the meditation but it was a really hard decision at the time and I just thought I can’t go back because if go back I’ll just always be thinking well what would have happened if I just stayed. So I just couldn’t go back and…

Jason Elkins (35:27.503)
yeah.

Jason Elkins (35:35.768)
Yeah, yeah.

Did you, I’m curious, did you have people in your life back home trying to persuade you to choose differently or encouraging you? Because I imagine probably had friends and family back home saying, you should come back and stay with us or whatever, I suspect.

Sally Guillaume (35:55.505)
Yeah, lots of being pulled in lots of different directions, you know, and everything. I just, now I just knew I’d been thinking, I’ve been dreaming about this for years. You know, I was very, very, very sure that this is what I wanted. And I was determined that it was going to happen, basically. So, yeah, but it was really hard. I think…

Jason Elkins (36:01.206)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (36:11.704)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (36:16.458)
Wow, wow, that’s powerful.

Sally Guillaume (36:23.368)
Now, if you ask me, would I do it again? Well, I would, because obviously I know the outcome. But would I go through that again? No, I wouldn’t. It was really, really hard. I think that if I think about the, you know, what is the emotion that I can remember feeling the most at that time? And I think actually it was loneliness. I was really, really lonely because I couldn’t speak to anybody. Like the only person I could speak to was Donald, who insisted on speaking to me in French anyway, and he’s a bloke, so it’s not the same.

Jason Elkins (36:27.893)
Hahaha

Jason Elkins (36:32.526)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (36:42.562)
Yeah, I’m sure.

Right.

Sally Guillaume (36:52.808)
and Mariana who became a friend, the first Mariana that I met too. But other than that I had nobody, and okay you can speak to your friends on the phone, can speak to your family on the phone, but they don’t understand where you’re at because changing, yeah it’s France and England, it’s not like it’s like a huge different culture or anything, but it is different, you know, it is different and there’s a whole system to navigate, know, everything’s, and the language and just being able to…

Jason Elkins (37:05.422)
So yeah, yeah.

Sally Guillaume (37:20.41)
express your emotions with a friend. There was no, you know, on a kind of daily basis and having a baby and all of the things, you know, when you’ve got a new baby, there’s a whole load of new emotions and things that you want to talk to people about that I couldn’t do that. I just couldn’t, I just didn’t have anyone to do that with. So I think the hardest bit was being lonely and then, you know, and also not knowing what I was doing and trying to, you know, work it all out by myself. Like, you know, because I couldn’t…

even go to it. I couldn’t go to anything like a course or lessons or even at the time. And now you see there’s those online stuff. There was nothing like that at the time. you’re kind of like, well, researching, know, how do you run a tour? What is a tour operator? How do you run? What insurance do I need? You know, what is packaged travel route regulations? What are all these things? How do I get them? Yeah. And also how do I learn French? And what are the rules in France? Are they different to the UK and Europe?

Jason Elkins (37:57.976)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (38:10.478)
How do I learn French?

Sally Guillaume (38:18.312)
It was so, yeah, was just very hard and yeah, lonely.

Jason Elkins (38:24.172)
I, Sally, honestly, the question I want to ask you is, and I don’t even know how you would answer it, but the question I want to ask you is how did you do it? Do you know, are you able to put your finger on how you managed to make it happen?

Sally Guillaume (38:37.158)
I think just having the dream, having that dream and wanting to make it happen. think, you know, I, you know, and also, you know, living here is just this, you know, your, your, like, you can go out in the, in the mountains, I can walk out in the mountains, like from my door in the winter, go skiing from, you know, literally not from my door, but almost. And seeing the views and

Jason Elkins (38:39.532)
Yeah.

Sally Guillaume (39:06.464)
wanting my children to have that, wanting them to be in this beautiful place and having clean air and being able to go skiing and you know, there’s like, yeah, just being really wanting that, just wanting it, like wanting to, yeah, just wanting to my kids, wanting Annie to be on skis when she’s three and want, you know, to go climbing and…

Jason Elkins (39:22.798)
That’s powerful. Yeah, that’s…

Sally Guillaume (39:32.838)
And of course you can do that in the UK, can go on skiing holidays and you can all of that, but it’s just not the same as living in it.

Jason Elkins (39:38.05)
Not the same. Yeah. What’s what’s the I guess the question is what’s the piece of advice that you wish somebody had given you or what’s the advice you would give to your past self that you know now in hindsight looking back and like what’s the advice you wish that you could have given yourself or somebody would have given you when you were going through all this.

Sally Guillaume (40:02.842)
I think it would have been very good advice to go and get a job, although it would have been very difficult because I didn’t speak French, but to go and get a job in France so that I had the security of a salary to do that first bit of learning French and understanding the system. Yeah, because that was probably, well, that was the hardest bit. know, we’re trying to having a conversation with an activity provider and you’re saying…

Okay, so, you know, they don’t speak English really and you don’t really speak French and there wasn’t Google Translate and you’re sort of trying to say, you know, I’m going to sell your rafting. This is the price. I want a commission. What’s the commission? So you’re going to charge them more. No, I’m going to charge them the same and you’re going to give me less.

Jason Elkins (40:47.052)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Negotiating all that stuff when you’re not even it’s kind of new to you and you’re figuring it out. And I suspect, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Sally Guillaume (40:56.143)
God. Yeah, and also this is, as I’ve said before, it’s a really, like, it’s not a place now it’s evolved, but at the time, you know, people didn’t really work with tour operators, they hadn’t actually understood what, they didn’t actually know what commission was, for example. Like, so, you know, that, that, you know, yeah, I mean, the whole thing has evolved so much. It’s just, Yeah.

Jason Elkins (41:10.314)
Great, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Elkins (41:19.968)
So it’s interesting to me that the advice you said was get a job. I’m going to boil it down. I’m going to summarize a little bit, but the advice would have been get a job. Were there people in your life at that time telling you, Sally, go get a job?

Sally Guillaume (41:38.829)
No, no, not really. no, no, I don’t think anybody said that. But I couldn’t get a job anyway. There wasn’t a job available to me without speaking French apart from cleaning or that kind of a job. you know, didn’t have remote jobs. No. So, But yeah, now if somebody wanted to do that, I would say get a job with another tour operator.

Jason Elkins (41:39.99)
No. Okay. Your parents are much more understanding than mine. Okay. Well, yeah, it would be very difficult.

Jason Elkins (41:55.596)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They didn’t have remote jobs, so you couldn’t. Yeah, yeah.

Sally Guillaume (42:08.232)
you know, learn the ropes, know, learn the ropes, learn how the industry works, obviously learn the language and have, do that with the security of having, you know, a salary so you haven’t got that pressure. I mean, I didn’t earn anything like zero for five years.

Jason Elkins (42:08.667)
Okay, yeah that would

Jason Elkins (42:24.055)
Yeah. Mm hmm. yeah, yeah.

Sally Guillaume (42:28.133)
because it was just so hard, you know, like, you know, I didn’t know what I was doing and I had a baby and yeah, it was just, so it was a very long, it was a very long slog.

Jason Elkins (42:37.997)
Wow.

I spoke with someone recently that kind of ended up the same thing when she started her business and she said, I just look back at it as an internship. I wasn’t making money, but I learned a lot and it’s kind of like an internship. A five year long internship is difficult when you’ve got a child and in a country you don’t speak the language. How did, yeah.

Sally Guillaume (43:01.447)
Yeah, and also on your own, like now, you know, the other advice I would say is like join, there’s loads of networks now, of which I’m in, you know, so, you know, go join these networks and go to these discussions. You can now go to like webinars with people in the same tourism industry as you from all over the world and listen to their problems and their hurdles and what solutions they have. I mean, that’s so valuable. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (43:09.262)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (43:21.356)
Well, yeah, it’s kind of like, yeah, it’s kind of what we’re doing right now. You and I are having a conversation that other tour operators and other people that aspire to do what you’ve done are listening to, and they can benefit from your story and hear the advice. And it is good advice because honestly, yeah, if someone came to me,

Right now it’s Jason, I know you work with a lot of tour operators. You got a lot of experience in this. I want to start my own tourism business. I would probably say, well, have you worked in tourism? Have you worked for anybody before? And if the answer is no, even with all these amazing resources, I would say you should go get a job with a tour operator, even if like.

Sally Guillaume (43:55.205)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (44:06.242)
You could, even if it’s an internship, know, do two years instead of, you know, the five years that Sally had to do, go do two years not making any money, but spending someone else’s money, the mistakes you make, or, know, whatever, and learn it properly, and you just get ahead that much quicker. So, all right, very cool. How did you end up learning French? Other than just necessity. Yeah.

Sally Guillaume (44:08.955)
Yeah!

Sally Guillaume (44:17.529)
learning it properly.

Sally Guillaume (44:32.171)
just by just being there. Yeah, just trying to like, yeah, just having to, you know, my first, the first language is the first words were, you know, you know, I won’t do it in French because you don’t speak French, when I baby nappies, feeding time bottle, you know, those kinds of conversations. And then, yeah, just gradually. mean, yeah, I think it probably took me three years before I remember, I remember going to someone’s 50th, a friend’s 50th and being in a

Jason Elkins (44:43.18)
I can’t.

Sally Guillaume (45:00.997)
I was like, you know, it’s horror. my God, I’ve to go to a group thing and like speak to lots of people. There’s going to be lots of people talking. I’m not going to able to understand anything. And I remember standing in like a group, you it was outside and there were three people having a conversation. I was in this group of three people having a conversation. I understood the whole conversation. I was like, yes. And not only did I understand the whole conversation, I was able to contribute to the conversation at the end. And I was like, yes, I’ve made it. I can speak French.

Jason Elkins (45:17.198)
Jason Elkins (45:25.87)
That’s a big accomplishment because, you know, in my situation, I’ve been spending a lot of time in the Spanish world and I’m learning Spanish basically the same way. I have some advantages, obviously. I’ve got Google Translate when I need it and I’ve got some apps on my phone. But I agree, like a one-on-one conversation I can get through because they know that I don’t speak it very well. If they speak slowly, do pretty well one-on-one.

But as soon as one or two other people join the conversation, especially if they’re all native Spanish speakers, it changes drastically. All of the sudden, all three of them are trying to speak to me. Just an example is if I’m looking for a bus stop or something, I stopped someone on the street.

Sally Guillaume (45:57.926)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (46:11.37)
And I think I’m doing just fine having the conversation with them. But as soon as they turn to somebody else and say, hey, this guy is looking for this, and then that person starts talking and then someone else is walking by. And also, and I’ve got three people trying to give me instructions and I have no idea. It went from 90 percent understanding of what was going on to zero really fast. So I’m just I’m acknowledging you. I.

Sally Guillaume (46:17.276)
Yeah

Sally Guillaume (46:32.356)
Yeah, I’ve been there.

Jason Elkins (46:36.27)
I would feel the same way if I had that moment of three other people. I’m like, oh my gosh, I understand what they’re talking about. So that’s very, very cool. So yeah. Yeah.

Sally Guillaume (46:39.065)
Yeah.

Sally Guillaume (46:42.468)
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, no, yeah. And the other big moment in terms of how I came to be here where I am now from there is when I met my now husband. So I’m now married to Bernard Guillaume, obviously. Hence my very Franco-English, know, Sally’s like a really English name and Guillaume is a really French name. So I really love that. I love the fact that I’m Sally Guillaume.

Jason Elkins (47:01.73)
Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.

Jason Elkins (47:05.883)
Yeah.

Sally Guillaume (47:10.918)
Anyway, so Bernard was a… I met him after about… Yeah, after that kind of three year period and he’s a guide, he’s a mountain guide. So we met because I had a group. So now I had clients, know, last. And I had a group of four people who were supposed to do a mountain called Les Ruies.

Jason Elkins (47:24.366)
Perfect.

Jason Elkins (47:30.626)
Mm-hmm.

Sally Guillaume (47:36.39)
which is like a mountaineering summit and there’s a limit to how many people you can have with each guide. And so I had my guide, Philippe, who’d been booked for ages. But then the group was two adult parents with adult children and the adult children wanted to bring their partners. So the group became six, but quite last minute. So I needed a second guide, but there no one around. It was peak season, there was nobody available. So I said, we must find someone.

Jason Elkins (47:41.198)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (47:51.822)
You

Sally Guillaume (48:05.447)
I said, well, the only person I can find is this guy called Bernard, but he doesn’t speak a word of English. I said, well, that’s OK. I’ll translate. I’ll come along and translate because I can speak French now. So that’s how we met. So we met there and it was a real love at first sight. We spent the whole mountain ignoring the clients and talking to each other. And I felt very guilty about it afterwards. But yeah, we got together pretty much. It was there.

Jason Elkins (48:09.814)
okay.

Jason Elkins (48:16.622)
huh, yeah.

Sally Guillaume (48:34.014)
And just to reassure the clients, they came back and I did speak to Gareth the dad and said, know, know, apologize for, you know, ignoring you. no, it that’s fine. In fact, it was such a special time for us because actually our son, one of the sons had got married and named one of the tables after the mountain. So it’s now the love mountain.

Jason Elkins (48:58.99)
That’s yeah, that’s very cool. What a great story All right, so His name is better than I was all right, but not am I saying right? Okay, is he was he did he get involved with your business right away? I don’t even know if he’s involved with it now. So tell me a little bit about that

Sally Guillaume (49:09.135)
Yeah.

Sally Guillaume (49:19.174)
So he’s a high mountain guide, so he’s independent if you like, but he is the guide for all of our, well not that we’re the other guys as well, but he’s the main, I’d say he’s like the head guide for all of our trips. yeah, he, his passion, he’s a high mountain guide, so a high mountain guide, if you don’t know what a high mountain guide is, is sort of highest qualification in mountains that you can have, in Europe I think.

So they can do everything from climbing, veerfrater, canyoning, mountaineering, ice climbing, ski touring, ski mountaineering, anything that basically involves ropes and mountains and ice axes and crampons, those kind of things. So he can do all of those kind of things and climbing. And his passion is nature. So he’s a real passionate nature.

watcher and so that’s how that element has come into our holidays. So basically it was a sort of I’ve got to know more about the mountains through Bernard and yeah it’s a very complementary relationship you know I do all of the office work now and all the organising and everything else and he’s the sort of mountain so it’s sort of grown you know I don’t know if I hadn’t met Bernard where it would have gone.

He’s a big key to it because his local knowledge and his passion and all of that combined with my skills, which are basically organizational, well, not that great at marketing, I try to be, all the office stuff, you like, those two skill sets have come together and that’s what really is Undiscovered Mountains.

Jason Elkins (51:10.188)
I think you’re, I’m just going to mention this. Maybe you’ve heard this before, but I think your skill set is your determination. The organization stuff. Yeah. Okay. There’s a lot of organized people. There’s a lot of people that are good at office stuff, but that if somebody asked me what Sally’s superpower, it’s not going to be, she’s organized and you know, obviously from this conversation, it’s just sheer determination. and that’s obvious to anybody that’s listening to this. And I want to ask you,

Sally Guillaume (51:17.114)
Well, yes.

Jason Elkins (51:40.194)
Really the reason you went on this climb with the clients and Bernard was because he didn’t speak English. So has that changed? I figured that was the case. But I wanted to bring that up in case anybody heard you say he does, he’s the lead guide. And if they’re still, I don’t think he speaks English, but yeah, okay. So very, very cool.

Sally Guillaume (51:49.606)
Yeah, he now speaks English.

Yeah, so.

Sally Guillaume (52:08.154)
Yeah, and we have, you know, and we have a son together. we’ve now, the family unit is four. So with my daughter and our son, so, but they’re kind of, know, Annie’s 20 now and Tommy’s 16, nearly 17. So yeah, they’re both bilingual and they both, you know, like my dream has come true. Like they’re bilingual. They are both great skiers. They both climb. They both love the mountains, you know.

Jason Elkins (52:29.528)
Yeah.

Sally Guillaume (52:37.943)
So yeah, I’ve achieved what I set out to do.

Jason Elkins (52:39.278)
Look at you. That is so cool. What’s what language is is I don’t even know how to say this in a bilingual relationship or what I like. What’s the language of the house?

Sally Guillaume (52:51.823)
So it’s probably, well not probably, it is French. We speak French and I speak English to the kids.

Jason Elkins (52:58.19)
Okay, is that.

Sally Guillaume (52:59.489)
But when we’re all together, we speak French. And then sometimes I’ll lapse into English if I want to say something quickly.

Jason Elkins (53:02.158)
Hmm.

Jason Elkins (53:06.028)
All right. All right. Very cool. Is that I’m just curious, is that intentional that you speak English to the kids? Is this is that? Yeah, tell me about that.

Sally Guillaume (53:13.613)
Yeah.

So yeah, I think any bilingual family will tell you this. So when the kids are learning another language, if you want your children to learn another language, when they’re little, they need to have someone that they associate with that language. So you should always speak in the same language to your children when they’re growing up. Because then they separate the two languages, they associate English with mummy and French with daddy or papa. And that helps them to create the two language centers apparently in there.

in their brains.

Jason Elkins (53:46.894)
That’s cool. That’s it makes absolute sense. It’s something I never thought of, but it makes makes absolute sense. So tell me if you don’t mind, tell me a little bit more about the kids. They sound like a little older than kids, but you said they’re both into the outdoors doing that stuff. Do can you? I know you don’t want to speak for them if you’re like me, like somebody asked me what what does your son want to do? I don’t know. mean, I know, but I don’t want to.

put that pressure on him to answer that question directly myself. But what are your thoughts on your kids? Do you see them potentially working in the tourism business or are they going different directions? Or do you have any idea or do even want to discuss it?

Sally Guillaume (54:26.947)
Yeah, they’re not going to work in the tourism industry.

Jason Elkins (54:31.374)
Okay, it sounds like you know that.

Sally Guillaume (54:34.629)
They’ve already made their choices. So Annie’s already, she’s on learning, well, she’s training to be a doctor. So she’s doing medicine studies. And my son wants to be an engineer. But they definitely do mountains in their spare time.

Jason Elkins (54:42.35)
Okay. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (54:47.192)
Okay, very cool.

Jason Elkins (54:53.484)
That’s pretty neat. What?

Jason Elkins (55:01.292)
I I have asked you like kind of what advice you would have given yourself. I think we gave a lot of good advice for people, but I’m just really inspired by your just tenacity and just like, this is my dream. This is my vision. were there tricks or is there something you can put your finger on that helped you stick through it other than just saying, well, it’s what I wanted. It’s what I always wanted. Were there tips or tricks or something that you were doing that kept you focused like that?

Sally Guillaume (55:25.262)
I think…

Sally Guillaume (55:30.213)
No, I think it is literally just the dream, but it’s also having having support as well. So I had good friends here. I made really good friends despite the language problem. So, yeah, so, yeah, I made good friends and, you know, they really helped me to to get there. And then obviously meeting Bernard and, you know, when that all came together, that that was really when it really started to sort of

blossom, I would say. So I don’t know how long I would have carried on in that kind of state of, know, that kind of loneliness bit before I cracked. You know, I think there’s a limit to how long you can do that for and three years was long enough.

Jason Elkins (56:02.498)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (56:13.197)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (56:21.294)
I’m not going to compare my struggles to yours, but I’ve been traveling for four and a half years, basically a solo traveler. And I get the loneliness part, but I don’t have a baby to take care of. And I’m not, I’ve, and I’m able to work remotely. So I can’t even imagine what you were going through at that time. So that’s, think that’s why I’m so impressed. very, cool. What’s, what’s next? Do you have anything exciting coming up here in the next couple of years? Any business?

Changes or any anything that’s got you excited and focused

Sally Guillaume (56:55.781)
Just yeah, I mean, so up until kind of reasonably recently, you know, the whole purpose of Undiscovered Mountains was really just to have a lifestyle to bring my kids up, as I think you’ve got that message. And now that they’re starting to leave home and I can see, you know, like it’s a different, you know, it’s a different stage of life. And I’ve kind of realised that actually I do now know quite a lot about tourism and I can build really good trips and

Jason Elkins (57:07.66)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (57:22.221)
Mm-hmm.

Sally Guillaume (57:26.137)
people come back and I’ve got some amazing clients, you really lovely clients and some great stories from, you know, clients that kind of keep coming back and you’re like, well, what we’re gonna do now? And I’ve done everything. So, yeah, so just, yeah, it’s, so now my kind of goal is to build up the business, suppose. So it’s more than just a lifestyle business so that it, you know, so that we…

that we have a little team and that, you know, that we can, it can run also without me, you know, so I can take a step back and just, yeah, keep, mean, the thing that keeps me going doing the business is the clients, you know, is being able to, you know, we’ve got a recent story, like, because one of the activities that I, my first sort of passion activity was ski touring. That was one of the things I really loved before I’m,

before I moved to the Alps and wanted to carry on when I, now I’m into ski, cross-country skiing, but anyway. And we had a client called Andrew, who I think it was probably about five years ago now, he joined us for a ski touring trip and he was, you know, limit just about able to cope with the ski touring trip. You know, he was like, his ability was quite, was kind of in the bottom end of the group. He won’t mind me saying this. And…

Anyway, he struggled through and he got through the end, you he did it and he was very proud of himself for doing the whole tour. And then he came back, but this time he came back prepared. know, he’d gone, like done loads of downhill skiing and loads of off-piste and came back and was really prepared. And yeah, and it showed and he was like loads better and, you know, had a much better tour. And then he came back again. There’s other people as well coming back, but this is sort of the key, the kind of key thing.

And he did the Haute route, is kind of like the, I suppose it’s one of the more, it’s quite technical, it’s quite hardcore ski touring, ski imagining. And we did the more alpine version of it with, know, carrying your skis on your back and walking up in crampons and, know, glaciers and quite technical and quite committing. And he was like, you know, he wrote this review at the end saying something like, this is the pinnacle of my…

Sally Guillaume (59:46.122)
ski touring experience, it’s the best thing I’ve ever done in my life, you really kind of gushing sort of like, you know, he let his, his emotions out. I can’t remember the exact after, but you know, this like really amazing review. It wasn’t actually even in a review, he had written it in an email, you know, in a thank you email. I’m now sitting in my bed with with an earl grey tea, having a hero’s welcome, you he just, was just like this amazing sort of like experience that he’d had. And I felt really

Jason Elkins (59:56.952)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (01:00:12.206)
Mm-hmm.

Sally Guillaume (01:00:14.357)
know, proud of that because I felt that we were sort of, you we were responsible for that. You know, we introduced him his first ski tour. He then got better. He got the bug. He did this big challenge. And then the best bit of it all was that he then decided to bring his daughter on a ski touring trip and introduce his daughter and her boyfriend to ski touring whilst they were young enough. Because he started it when he was in his sixties. He discovered ski touring as a retired person.

Jason Elkins (01:00:42.781)
wow, okay.

Sally Guillaume (01:00:43.204)
So he was in his, well, I actually don’t know how old he was, but he was retired. So he’s like, I need to get my kids into this before they get too old. And so they came this year and we had a lovely ski tour with them and they’ve now got the bug too. yeah, those are the sort of stories that keep you going and make it all worthwhile, yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:01:07.394)
I agree and as I heard you saying that I was thinking you know if it was if it was just the job like okay we’re gonna put together this trip we’re gonna take them up the mountain we’re gonna drop them back off at their whatever and they’re never gonna write a good review they’re never gonna say thank you they’re never gonna

bring back their other family members. It’s just the routine of we pick them up, we go do this, we bring them back. We never hear from them again. I think a lot of people would not want to do tourism anymore. It’s a lot of work. You know, I know I I had I did the hot air balloon ride business. And it was a lot of work to manage everything to get people out there. Go do the thing.

Sally Guillaume (01:01:43.18)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:01:56.294)
And if at the end of the day they just shook my hand and said, okay, thanks, bye. I said it wasn’t worth the work. It was the reviews. And I think a lot of people in this business trust me. like, I would just sit there, I would just wanted to see the reviews and read the reviews. And they would say, you know, how this was an amazing experience. I had people get engaged or married in the balloon or whatever. with the.

Sally Guillaume (01:02:17.784)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:02:18.56)
Yeah, without the reviews and that those kudos sometimes, it wouldn’t be worth the work. Is that that’s kind what I hear you saying is you really appreciate hearing that stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Sally Guillaume (01:02:26.934)
yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That’s the, that’s the payment. You know, that’s, that’s what, that’s where the job satisfaction comes from. Like, yeah, you you get, you get, you put all this effort in and you, you, you always go out of your way. You know, you’re always doing, you know, and, and you’re right. It’s a lot of work. It’s a lot of work to put together a trip. And when somebody appreciates that and, and when you’ve,

Jason Elkins (01:02:34.51)
you

Sally Guillaume (01:02:55.896)
when you’ve made it like their life experience or they’ve proposed on like, you know, these are the big things or someone’s big birthday and they’ve had, you know, it’s the best. Like we recently had a client who got in touch with us and said to us, we came on holiday about 10 years ago as a couple. It was the best holiday we’ve ever had and we want to come back with our children.

Jason Elkins (01:03:00.972)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:03:15.726)
That’s so cool. Yeah, I love it.

Sally Guillaume (01:03:17.22)
You know, and that is like, you know, 10 years has passed and they still think it’s the best holiday they’ve ever had. Now, how many holidays have they had in that 10 years? And now they want to bring their kids. You know, this is like a young couple bringing their younger family. It’s not the same as Andrew with his adult child. But, you know, that kind of thing, it’s like, yeah, you know, when, yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:03:22.744)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:03:37.088)
It’s hard to walk away from that, isn’t it? What I hear you saying is you’d like to not have to do everything yourself, maybe grow the team you mentioned, so you don’t have to be involved in everything. But it’s a really, really hard thing to, I don’t know if it’s hard. It would be hard to just think, you know what, I’m done, I’m just gonna close the business and go travel. For me, that would be hard.

Sally Guillaume (01:04:00.556)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:04:01.398)
Right. So what I hear you saying is grow the team so you can continue to have those experiences and make those those moments for people. Is that am I hearing that right? OK. Yeah.

Sally Guillaume (01:04:09.848)
Yeah, exactly. exactly. And just cherry pick, you know, I do. So I’ll go out with clients when they’re doing something that I want to do and with clients that I like because I like them because they’ve been before and, you know, and let the team do all of the, you know, ringing up and booking and all that kind of stuff.

Jason Elkins (01:04:18.028)
Yeah.

I get it. Yeah, I get it.

Jason Elkins (01:04:26.678)
So what’s the, if you were to, not if, but when you expand the team, what’s the first role or position that you would look to fill?

Sally Guillaume (01:04:39.086)
So I’ve got somebody who’s just started in operations. So basically I’m selling and then once the trip is sold, I then hand it over to them to do all of the booking, the accommodations, organizing the guides, negotiating with guides, creating, putting it all together and giving the, creating the, we have an app that we give to our clients, so creating that for the clients. So all of the kind of admin stuff, if you like.

Jason Elkins (01:04:43.639)
Okay.

Sally Guillaume (01:05:09.476)
I’d love someone to do the marketing for me. I marketing is just like a kind of thing that just is just like an bottomless pit of, know, just never. Yeah, it’s like it’s not science or that probably is a science, but it feels like it’s, yeah, there’s no kind of right or wrong way of doing it. And yeah, lots of trial and error. I find that really hard. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:05:13.196)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:05:36.814)
I think that is the challenge with marketing is there’s so many things you could do, should do, would do. People tell you, you should do this, you should do that. And there’s so many, sometimes just like figuring out which one am I gonna do and then actually stick to it is a challenge for me. I don’t know if you have the same experience.

Sally Guillaume (01:05:53.132)
Yeah, exactly. It is a challenge and the world of tourism, not just the world of tourism, but the world in general has changed so much and is changing so radically still, like with AI and everything else that’s coming on board. The way people make decisions has changed radically over

the last few years and it’s going to change even more radically over the next few years. so keeping pace with that and knowing that, you know, in tourism, when you’re in tourism, you’re in a global market. So you’re in global, you’re competing globally with companies that have got billions of dollars of marketing budget have like, you know, teams of, you know, a hundred people just doing social media, for example, you know, and when you’re a small business, you just don’t, you can’t compete with that. So, you know, you can’t, there’s no point even trying.

Jason Elkins (01:06:32.301)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (01:06:40.792)
Mm-hmm.

Sally Guillaume (01:06:48.675)
So it’s finding your way around this world where it seems like only the big companies have any power and the little companies like us, you’ve got to have a good client base, I think. mean, I think that’s where it all comes from, a good client base and word of mouth. But then when you’re…

just one destination, there’s a limit to how many times people can come back. I I have had people come back for like 10 or 11 holidays, but I’m not surprised if they don’t want come back again. You’ve done everything there is to do here now, you might want to go somewhere else. So it is a challenge and I haven’t got the answer to the challenge, just a case of…

Jason Elkins (01:07:22.638)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (01:07:30.03)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:07:42.488)
We’re lucky in a sense that we’ve got access to so much information. We’ve got endless information at our fingertips. But at the same time…

That means endless options and choices and decisions. And it just can get so overwhelming. So far. And even if you just go into chat GPT or or whatever, you know, I can go there on Tuesday and say, hey, come over the marketing, help me come up with a marketing strategy. And then I go on Wednesday and I say, hey, help me come up with a marketing strategy. Totally different things because there’s so many options. And it’s just like, it’s so hard to just say, you know what? I got to ignore the noise and just

Sally Guillaume (01:07:55.778)
Yeah.

Sally Guillaume (01:08:13.729)
Yeah, exactly.

Jason Elkins (01:08:21.39)
figure out something that I can do consistently and because It’s tough anyway, so I hear you saying you’d like to get somebody to maybe do some of that marketing headache stuff for you I get I get that completely

Sally Guillaume (01:08:33.601)
Yeah, so any marketing people out there that want to come and work for me for free?

Jason Elkins (01:08:37.774)
We discussed the internship and what the great value of being an intern for a couple years could do for somebody so If you were listening earlier, this is your this is your sign time to take advantage of that So you so much fun we discussed a bunch bunch of things and just I just love your You’re just passion for creating the life that you created. That’s I hope

Sally Guillaume (01:08:40.205)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:09:06.432)
More than one, I hope somebody is listening to this and somebody will make a difficult decision and go follow their vision and their dream and make it happen like you did. That’s just super cool. But I want to ask you before we wrap up, is there anything that you wish I would have asked you? Anything I forgot to ask you or anything else you want to share with our listeners either about you, philosophy of life, undiscovered mountains, France, Southern Alps, anything at all that you want to share before we wrap up?

Sally Guillaume (01:09:36.821)
No, I think we’ve talked about everything. Yeah, I think, yeah, I’ll probably get off the phone and think off the call and think, yeah, I should have said this or should have said that or whatever. no. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:09:39.118)
covered all that didn’t we?

Jason Elkins (01:09:48.858)
Well, we’ll just have to come back and do it again. No problem. Sally, thank you so much. This was a lot of fun. I learned a lot about a different part of the world that I’m not that familiar with, but more importantly about you and your story. And it’s super inspiring. I’m really, really happy we had this conversation. So thanks for joining me.

Sally Guillaume (01:10:08.267)
Well, thank you. Thank you for giving me the opportunity and it was great. Yeah, I enjoyed it. was fun.

Jason Elkins (01:10:13.302)
Sounds good. I’ll talk to you soon. Bye, Sally.

Sally Guillaume (01:10:15.511)
Thank you, bye.

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