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Episode #27: Stavros Makris

Co-founder

Bearing True South

Stavros Makris
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Guest Bio

Stavros “Stav” Makris is the co-founder and Sales Manager of Bearing True South, an adventure travel company based in Athens, Greece. With a background in Biology, Stavros has worked as a documentary photographer for newspapers, NGOs, and media organizations across Europe and the Middle East. His passion for exploration and storytelling led him to establish Bearing True South, aiming to provide authentic adventure experiences that showcase Greece’s natural beauty and cultural heritage.

Show Summary

In this episode, Stavros Makris shares his journey from biology and photography to adventure tourism. He discusses the inspiration behind founding Bearing True South, the challenges of promoting sustainable tourism in Greece, and the importance of connecting travelers with local communities. Stavros also reflects on his experiences documenting diverse cultures and environments, and how these experiences have influenced his approach to curating unique travel experiences.

Key Takeaways

  • ✓ Interdisciplinary Expertise: Combining diverse skills and experiences can lead to innovative approaches in business.
  • ✓ Sustainable Tourism: Promoting eco-friendly travel practices preserves destinations and benefits local communities.
  • ✓ Cultural Immersion: Engaging deeply with local cultures enriches travel experiences and fosters mutual understanding.
  • ✓ Storytelling in Tourism: Crafting compelling narratives enhances traveler engagement and appreciation of destinations.
  • ✓ Entrepreneurial Vision: Identifying gaps in the market and leveraging personal passions can drive successful business ventures.

What You’ll Find on Bearing True South’s Platform

  • ✓ Adventure Tours: Guided experiences such as sailing, diving, and hiking that explore Greece’s diverse landscapes.
  • ✓ Cultural Expeditions: Immersive journeys that connect travelers with local traditions, cuisine, and history.
  • ✓ Sustainable Practices: Commitment to eco-friendly tourism that supports environmental conservation.
  • ✓ Customized Itineraries: Tailored travel plans designed to meet individual interests and preferences.
  • ✓ Expert Guides: Knowledgeable professionals providing in-depth insights into Greece’s natural and cultural treasures.

Learn more about Bearing True South and connect with Stav at:

https://www.bearingtruesouth.com/

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Podcast Transcript

This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.

All right, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the big world made small podcast for the adventure traveler. So happy to have each and every one of you back here for another episode. This one’s pretty exciting. We’ve got Stavros Makris, Stav Did I say that right? Uh, yeah, perfect. All right, cool. We’re off. We’re off to a good start. Um, you and I have already had conversation in the past. Uh, just was fascinated by that conversation and you are working in a part of the world that I’m really not very familiar with. And.

learning a little bit about that. And before we go too far into that, I think all of our listeners are really kind of interested in the people behind this. So anyway, first of all, just happy to have you on the show. It’s a real pleasure to have you here. Same, same. Thank you so much for making time. I’m really looking forward to the conversation. I appreciate your, you know, we’re I think nine or 10 times zones away at this point. So I might be cutting into your day. Oh no.

Well, it works the same way the other way. I suspect it’s evening time there as we’re recording this. It’s mid afternoon here in Columbia where I’m at now. So it works great for me. So thank you so much, so much for joining us. Stav, as you and I had discussed last time we spoke, I’d ask you a few questions kind of about yourself, trying to figure you out. And I was kind of really surprised. I just think you have an interesting story, as most adventure tour operators probably do. Most of us.

Jason Elkins (02:31.978)
We might say we ended up here by accident, or maybe it was in your DNA or whatever. We all kind of have a different route, but they’re all interesting, probably more interesting than other industries. I’m just gonna say that. I know there’s other people listening that might disagree, but I always love speaking with tour operators about kind of how they got to where they are. So what’s your story? How did you get into tourism? How did you get from where you are now, how did you get there from where you were?

It was random. It was just pure luck, I guess. I’m a biologist as far as my studies go, years and years ago. Spent about 12 years working mainly in Africa and Asia as a documentary photographer out of all things. Again, random. And then at some point, I think it was 2013, early 2013, that was 11 years ago, a childhood friend of mine calls me. And at that point, I’m doing a thing in Burma.

and is like, when are you back in Greece? I have this idea for sustainable tourism. So I’m in my 30s at that point. I’m getting tired to do Congo and Burma. And all of those places that are super fun when you’re young, you have the energy and the curiosity to put yourself through specific, let’s just say rough conditions. And I was looking for a way out of that.

So, yeah, I didn’t really think about it. I was like, yeah, I’m in. I mean, I trust you enough, his second master’s degree was in sustainable tourism. His thesis was exactly what became Bearing True South down the line about a year later when incorporated. And yeah, I found myself being, I don’t know, a co-founder of a business. Like I have no business background. You need to be, I need to be very clear about that. I know nothing about business. No one in my family is into business or like, you know.

I don’t know, teachers and academics and all of that. And it kind of worked down the road. So I came back to Greece for Christmas that year. We started hatching like the big plan. And it felt, at least for me at that time in my life, it felt that it was the right fit. I love people, I love being social.

Jason Elkins (04:54.962)
I’ve traveled quite a bit all over the world. I’ve met some amazing people. I’m always interested in their stories. And while I was away, I usually had random people stay at my place in Anthe. It’s like people that I’ve never met. Just like the house was an open house for just like random travelers, friends of friends would just like visit. If I was around, I would just like make an effort of sewing them around. But not the, you know, not the super touristy stuff, but mainly.

I had people saw me around in different parts of the world and I always appreciated when it was kind of authentic. So I tried to do the same at the time. And then when we started Bermuda South, I realized that as a guide, as like a tour guide, that’s exactly what I wanted to do. Like I wanted to make sure that people see the sites, obviously, but at the same time, it’s a very honest approach to the destination. Like, we’re gonna…

about culture and history and architecture and food, but we’re also going to talk about on occasion politics or like local politics, not world politics, for example, or about what it is that we try to sort of like experience when it comes to cultural immersion, because that’s something that’s different for a lot of people. And I’m bubbling, but…

It just sort of like fit for me as a person. And I think my personality is that where, at this point in my 40s, I don’t get tired of being around people that I know nothing about. And it’s always a two-way thing. So I share my story or I share the destination, the country, the people, but at the same time, I get stuff from them. Like I get their life story.

life experience and like cool stories, interesting facts, you know. We only work with North Americans, so that’s like a limited geographical area of the world. But there’s so much cultural diversity in the US and I guess to a lesser extent Canada that I think I’m set for another 20 years. Good. And I love hearing that because that’s exactly what we’re doing here today is just sharing some stories.

Jason Elkins (07:11.394)
There’ll be some people out there that are listening to this. And something you say may inspire them to get up and go. Maybe it’s not Greece, but just to go do something. And I want to ask you, because when you were sharing your story, it was fascinating, because what you described kind of before you were doing what you’re doing now as a documentary photographer in Burma, Congo, you name all these places. And

I just noticed that you just kind of move through it. And I understand that you moved on with your life into other things. And that’s just a fascinating thing, what you were doing already. That’s something I remember as a small child, I’m gonna use National Geographic as the example. And it was just always, oh my gosh, that’d be the dream to go be a National Geographic photographer. And I know you heard that. I don’t know if you did anything for them. I’m just using that as an example. And that’s like…

fascinating. So I don’t want to just skip past that. I want to just ask you a couple questions about that. I’ll take a little paper because I’m sure it was fascinating. I guess first question, so were you born and raised in Athens? No, I was actually born and raised in Western Greece. Just to give you an idea, Western Greece is like the Pacific Northwest of Europe. It rains all the time. There’s forests and lakes and rivers. Very outdoorsy kind of part of Greece.

I moved to Athens when I was 17, when I came here to study biology. And I was lucky enough, we’re middle-class, my family growing up, like, you know, there’s four of us, but I was very lucky because my mom used to travel. So it was always very encouraging when it comes to that sort of like part of life. So it was always…

of like making sure that we get as many sort of like experiences as we can outside of the country growing up. And that’s not something that’s easy, especially, you know, it’s something that’s expensive. It’s an expensive hobby. But as a backpacker, when I was, I don’t know, 17 or 18,

Jason Elkins (09:29.674)
minus the sea, I think most of Europe at the time and a little bit of North Africa. And then over the years, sorry, traveling a bit more outside to Asia first and then more of Africa and then the Americas. And you get to this point where

Jason Elkins (09:46.206)
You talked about how cool it is to be a documentary photographer, but the truth is it’s a young man’s game or young woman’s game. So the older you get, the more appreciative you get over the, I would say being paid to travel and seeing some really cool places in the world that most people only get to see on TV.

But at the same time, it can be both physically and mentally exhausting. I’m curious, was it? Was it? I know it’s all, I know it all blends together. And I’m curious what part of it was most mentally, physically exhausting. Cause I can imagine a bunch of different scenarios. Maybe the subject you’re working with, maybe that the work to get the right photo. But then I can also imagine maybe it’s just the moving and not having a home. I’ve been traveling full time for two years, so I can relate to that part of it. So.

curious for you what was the part that was the most challenging? I think having a base is important, especially as we get older. And by base I don’t mean like a physical sort of like location. I mean like, you know, a group of people that are part of your life or maybe a family for some people or just a place you call home.

The physical aspect of it is obviously time chains, months upon months of being on the road, depending on where you are, certain medication that you have to take to make sure that, you know, malaria pills and all of that. I was on doxycycline, I think, for about 11 months at a time, like straight. That made my liver really not like me at the time.

I’m not a drinker. And you know what? There’s people sitting at home putting other things in their body that because they can’t travel, that’s not good for their liver either. So I guess that’s the trick. No, sure. But I can count in the fingers of one hand, the times in my life that I’ve had more than two beers. I’ve never been drunk in my 40 something years. But that dose of cycling, man, it’s bad.

Jason Elkins (12:02.594)
Okay. And the alternatives are bad as well, like Larian or Malarum, like they give you hallucinations and like, you know, photosensitivity and, you know, you’re talking to people who aren’t there and all of that stuff. So, and the, the doxycycline just for anybody that’s listening and also just educate me, tell me really what it’s, what it’s used for. Why were you taking that?

It’s basically a broad spectrum antibiotic that supposedly has some effect against the types of malaria that are present in Eastern Africa. So it protects you, but not as much. Now if you’re in Indonesia or Thailand, as far as I know, I might be way off there, but as far as I know, it doesn’t really work because those mosquitoes, they have a resistance to that. There’s three types of malaria, something like that anyways. So that’s the physical part.

The mental part is, yeah, basically, you know, I mean, you’ve been doing it for a while. You know it better than I am, you know, than I do. It can get exhausting. Like, you know, you’re on occasion, if you travel in what some people call third world countries or like the developing world, I think is a more appropriate term, you get exposed to sort of like aspects of the human condition that can be.

Jason Elkins (13:24.594)
they’re very different to what were used. And this is something you either sort of like become very cynical about it and I found myself becoming very cynical about it as the years went by or you have to…

sort of, I don’t know, discover drugs and alcohol and depression to go through life. When you’re traveling to such places. Very, very honest. I love that you’re sharing this because I’ve spoken with and I’ve had a lot of conversations with nomads or people that want to live that lifestyle. And there’s things you just don’t until you do it, you really just don’t know. And you touched on, for me, the one that I’ve seen the most both

you know, honestly, sometimes with myself and, and definitely others is that loneliness, depression, you know, I’m going to go with depression because that’s where you use, but it can come from that, that loneliness. Because on one hand, yes, you’re meeting a lot of fascinating people or I, that’s been my experience. And it’s very short lived because either I’m moving to the next spot or they’re moving to the next spot or they live there. And you know, they’re, it’s interesting to have the conversation, but there’s enough

challenge sometimes to, you know, or language challenges, obviously to really create and have those deep, profound conversations. And when you’re in a place for even a month where you really, you know, there’s been times I haven’t spoken with anybody that really speaks English other than very, very broken. And I love conversation. That’s probably part of why I’m doing this, this whole podcast off is I was sitting in Southeast Asia and I was like, I want to have conversations. So I started this podcast.

probably partly for that reason. So it’s good for anybody hearing this that is considering that type of lifestyle to just at least be aware. But if you know you’re the type of person that needs to be around other people and strong deep connections with family members and friends, then maybe start with a short trip before you sell all your stuff and move to your place. This is very good advice. Do it in increments. See how three months feel like.

Jason Elkins (15:42.386)
And then if you can do it, and it all depends on what kind of person you are. And I think we’re in the world you’re traveling to. Like he spent six months in Japan where, I mean, there’s language barriers for sure. But, uh, the, the culture is fascinating and not to the mean other places that have fascinating cultures, but at the same time, it’s considered like a safe place, like a safe destination for the most part, you’re not going to run into trouble.

But if you haven’t really traveled outside or at least a little bit outside of your comfort zone at all and you decide that I’m gonna sell everything, I’m gonna put everything in a sled, it’s gonna go into storage and I’m gonna fly to, I don’t know, El Salvador. Yeah, that’s kind of what I did. Yeah. I didn’t know that, but you said you could actually do it. I mean, yeah, I had traveled, I had been to…

I think when I started the full-time thing, I visited 20 some countries, you know, so, but never for more than a few weeks at a time. I always had a home to go back to. I had people back home that would say, we look forward to seeing you when you get home. And when my observation is when you do it, you just mentioned you just sell everything, you know, including I sold my car three days before I got on the plane and I had a one-way ticket to Columbia and.

what I learned, I’m happy I did it. I am still thriving in it. I’m still enjoying it. And I also realized that the power of self-identity is a real powerful force. And when you start to tell people you’re doing it, I’m selling all my stuff, I’m going on the road, I’m going to go travel full-time for the rest of my life or even two years or whatever. It’s really hard to change your mind later.

you’ve sold all your stuff, you don’t have a home, your option is to go back and live with your mom or something. And that sense of identity, it’s just hard to admit that, okay, I was wrong. Which can, you know, and there’s people that I’ve run into, they’ve been traveling for a year or two, and it’s clear they’re not enjoying themselves. But when you dig a little deeper and have the conversations, it’s like, yeah, but, you know, I’m a digital nomad. I told everybody I was going to be a digital nomad. I don’t want to go and they all told me.

Jason Elkins (18:01.538)
Oh, that’s amazing. Well, not all of them, but you know, some of them said, oh, that’s amazing. You should go do it. It’s kind of like if you said, oh, I took a job as a photographer for National Geographic. I think we traveled the world for five years. Everybody gets excited. You’re all excited. And then three months into it, you realize, yeah, this isn’t for me. It’s hard to kind of go back home to Des Moines, Iowa and tell your friends, yeah, you know, that didn’t work out. So it’s much easier to just say, I’m taking three months break. A sabbatical, I think, would be the term for it.

Go do it and then decide what you want to do, because by then it’s just so much easier. So I appreciate you letting us chat about that for a second. What are your thoughts? So.

I mean, you’ve done it. So I think you’re one of the few people that can relate to that in my vicinity right now, for sure. Like, at least for me, like when I first went to Southeast Asia, that was, I think, 15, 16 years ago, I was supposed to say there if I didn’t like a month or six weeks or something. And the more you travel, like the more people that you meet, the more sort of like random opportunities come.

your way and then you end up like… It’s happened enough times where I know it’s a thing. Like I don’t have the science behind it. There’s no algorithm that I can present with you. But I know from in my case and in other people that have talked about it, you start with this like preconceptions of what your next two, three months are going to be. And then at some point…

you realize that you’re so way off, but in such an awesome way that it doesn’t really matter. So for me, for example, my first trip to Southeast Asia, I ended up working as a volunteer in a Gibbon sanctuary, like primates on the border between Thailand and Burma. And then I came back to Greece for a bit and then I went straight back because I loved it. It was amazing. I was like, you know, breastfeeding, not breastfeeding, like bottle feeding, baby monkeys.

Jason Elkins (20:13.53)
That was my job, basically, in the jungle. There was nothing happening there, mind you. It was literally way, I think the closest village was 40, I think it was 42 kilometers away, just to give you an idea. The most exciting thing that happened over two years in that area was that they were filming Rambo 4 at the time. Because they were filming from the Thai side and the Burmese were having none of it. They were shooting, like, you know.

over the border, they were like shooting their guns because they were pissed off. They knew it was about Burma, that movie. And we were also excited because we wanted to see like Sylvester Stallone, right? Oh, it’s a big Hollywood movie being filmed in the middle of nowhere in, you know, Eastern Thailand, Western Thailand. But yeah, he wasn’t there obviously, but that kept us excited. And if it wasn’t for a random conversation that I had with this Canadian guy, Darrell, I don’t know if you’re still out there, but I love you, bud.

in this train station in Thailand while I was on my way to Laos, a couple of months before that, I would have never found out about it. And I met people that I’m still talking to today, like my friend Sarah, who’s in Australia, she has two kids now, she was on a round the world trip. I met her on that trip. I went to Australia a couple of years ago, she was there to pick me up from the airport, like I met her family, my mom. Years and years later.

You build those connections that you have no idea you are like, you have no idea what kind of people you’re going to meet. And obviously I’m not saying every sort of like interaction you have with other humans is amazing. It isn’t, but there are some that will get you out of your comfort zone and that will change you as a person, like your perceptions of people, of needs, of…

you know, cultural barriers. Because, I mean, I’m sure, and you can talk a bit about that. You live in South America, right? You live in Colombia. I’m sure, I don’t know how good your Spanish is. Mine is, you know, it’s shit with a capital M for mierda. But… I know that one, yeah. So I’m sure that you’ve made cultural faux pas, like, you know, things you… Oh yeah.

Jason Elkins (22:36.31)
while you’re there. But as long as you’re like inquisitive and respectful and you’re willing to sort of like change your perception over a specific culture, people, whatever it is like food, it doesn’t matter. Then this whole other world opens up. And just to backtrack and I know it sounds ridiculous, but when I started doing the tour guiding thing, and I’ve been at it for a decade now, I haven’t stopped traveling. I still go away every like three or four months to a different world.

in my job and like the thing that’s providing sustenance for me as a person in Greece, when I do that, I try to be that kind of person, like the vessel. And it’s not always easy and it’s not always successful, but when people are asking me questions, I try to be that guy Darrell from like 15 years ago or my friend Sarah or my friend Simon who’s in Sierra Leone right now working in an NGO somewhere.

You know, all of those wonderful people that you meet, that they gave you something to open up your horizons, they showed you sort of like, you know, they made sure that you had some form of cultural emergence, some form of like, you know, memorable experience. I tried to bring that to my day job. And the moment I can’t do that, I’m gonna find something else. Like I’ve done so many things so far, like I’ve changed. I think every 10 or 12 years I change sort of like sectors.

So I’m very easy to, if what I do now stops being fun, if I don’t get what I’m putting in as a person, as a human being, if I stop getting it back, it means that I’m not doing it right. So I can always just hop off to something different. I agree. And I think that’s so important and something that’s interesting about a lot of the folks I’ve spoken with, but also clearly yourself.

is you don’t see this as your only option. You don’t see that you didn’t grow up thinking, you know, you’re not working in the coal mine. It’s not like I gotta keep doing this the way I’ve been doing it, whether I enjoy it or not. And when you’re with a guide or an operator like that, that is doing it because they enjoy it, because they made a choice to do it. And as long as they still enjoy it, you have a totally different experience. And I always believe that if I’m having fun, my clients are gonna have fun, or my guests, or whatever word you wanna use.

Jason Elkins (25:01.362)
You know, I had a hotter Bluenright business and it was so easy in a sense because I didn’t really have to worry too much about them having fun. I just literally went to it every day as I’m going to have fun. I’m going to have fun with these people that are joining me. I’m going to have fun showing them some new things and a Bluenright business. Okay, you go for Bluenright, but I spent also spent just as much time.

you know, stopping in the desert to look at cactuses or to look at little ground owls or whatever. And if we got back to where I met them to drop them off, if, if I could legitimately, if I felt like I had fun, I knew what the reviews were going to look like. There was no doubt about it because I’m having fun. They’re going to have fun. And it got, it was the same thing. If maybe I had a client that reached out to me that wanted to go do something. And if I’m like, if I didn’t, if I didn’t have fun talking to him, don’t, you know, speaking with him on the phone.

the first conversation. I’m like, I don’t think I’m going to be able to have fun. And if I’m not having fun, they’re not going to have fun. And it’s that that’s just a micro example, I guess, of the bigger picture is, like you said, if you get to the point where you’re like, yeah, this isn’t fun, I’m not getting anything out of it anymore, then you almost owe it to your future clients to bow out and say, you know what, here, let me introduce you to so and so they’re still having fun. So I think that’s it goes. I think it goes.

little bit beyond that as well. Like you said, you owe it to your clients. You do. Like you actually do. I have tremendous respect for like the time they’re taking away out of their like regular life to fly halfway across the wall and like sail the Greek islands with us and the amount of money they’re paying for that. Because let’s face it, like North Americans, they don’t have a ton of

like paid leave, whatever you want to call it. So the fact that they’re trusting you with their 10, 12, 14 days, and it’s one year out of their lives, I would say it’s probably 1.5 to 1.7% that year of their whole lifespan, if we’re talking 80 years per person is the average life expectancy. So they have maybe what?

Jason Elkins (27:21.51)
50 good vacations in their lifespan, and they’re trusting you with one of them. Like, you know, now we’re talking about a higher percentage. You’re responsible for that. Like, you know, they’re spending good money and they’re dedicating their time to fly over. If I don’t deliver, and by not deliver, I don’t mean if I don’t go above and beyond and I do, you know, things that they’re not promised, but I really want to do it. I do it anyways. Like, you know, there are times

be very, very proper with the way I do my job. And I’m not talking about being fake. I’m not talking about being enthusiastic when I’m not. But the moment I appear at that marina, I better be enthusiastic. I definitely know what I mean. And if that stops being, if I have to force myself, that was my point before, if I have to force myself to be enthusiastic for them, or to go out of my way to do another little hike, or, you know, like make sure they interact with the fishermen in the morning.

If that ends up being a chore and I want to get my like 10 more minutes of sleep before the day starts, then there’s no point for me to be doing any of that. I should just pass it on to someone else or just like close it, shut it down completely. And I’ll find my way for over two decades now. How hard can it be? Right? And this is… You’ll figure it out. Yeah. I love that attitude.

out of the many conversations I’ve been having with folks in this industry, this is, you’ve brought up some really unique points and it reminded me of a situation that I’m gonna share cause I suspect there’s people listening to this that are in the business or want to be guides or wonder what it’s like. And I remember, cause you talked about, you’ve got maybe 80 years, 50 vacations. You can also look at that as like, you can narrow that down even more if you look at family groups, right?

when the kids are getting ready, there’s that window in between eight or so, before that they don’t really appreciate stuff. Some would say it’s later, but let’s just say that from eight to 10 somewhere in there, they start to kind of maybe appreciate stuff. And then about 15 or 16, they’re like, I wanna be home with my friends. And so you’ve got that very, very narrow window. So there’s a tremendous responsibility because now you’re really having the impact on that family’s connection

Jason Elkins (29:48.722)
is going to carry on forever. Memory is so many things are involved. And what really drove the point home for me, I was working for Orvis Travel. We did a lot of fly fishing specific, high end fly fishing trips. And we had a particular trip to a place in Ireland. Ireland has some good fishing. It’s not particularly known for good fishing. Most of our clients would go there for other reasons, but they would fish while they were there.

And I remember I had a client that had done several trips with us. I had booked quite a few trips with him or for him to other places. He was a fisherman. He wanted to go fishing. And I remember that when he contacted me about going to Ireland, he’s like, I want to go to Ireland. OK, great. But, you know, worked all the details out for him, set up like eight. I don’t know. As all he ever did was fish every day. And and I listened to what he was asking for.

And I gave him what he was asking for. I gave him eight days of fishing in Ireland. The logistics, everything worked out just fine, except the fishing was subpar to what he had expected from previous trips that he’d gone on, other places he’d gone to. I didn’t really take the due diligence or didn’t take the care with him to really have that conversation around expectations. And I’m responsible.

And the reason I’m sharing this story is when he got back, frankly, very unhappy with his phishing experience, he wrote a letter. He took the time to write a letter to share his feedback. And I remember in that letter, it was like, look, I’ve got these health issues. I’m failing fast. I might have less than a year left. And I’m really upset that you didn’t tell me that the phishing was going to be horrible. And

At first, of course, your normal reaction is sometimes as we get a little defensive and like, well, you know, you’re the one who said you wanted to go to Ireland. You didn’t call me and ask me where you should go. You just said, you want to go to Ireland. But fortunately, once I got past that, and then I got back into the thinking part of my brain, it was a real wake-up call. You got to kind of listen to what’s under this, under the music beneath the notes or the meaning under the words. And…

Jason Elkins (32:12.134)
The point was that yes, this time is really, really important. We owe it to our clients to maybe even help them find things that they didn’t even know that they’re looking for or help point things out and let them make the decision. Because frankly, I’d been to Ireland. I’m not knocking Ireland, love Ireland. By the way, my wife’s Irish, so you know. Okay. So after this conversation, she’s right. Yeah, okay.

So I get it. Those were all things I knew. And in hindsight, I was like, you know, I should have taken five more minutes and said, you know, I won’t mention any names, but I should have said, hey, let’s have a real conversation about this. I’m happy to set it up for you. And so that was always a reminder for me going forward to not just assume that, you know, they know what they’re booking, they know what they’re doing and just let them make their choice. It’s kind of like you, you know, maybe someone tells you, oh, we want this itinerary and you know, there’s something better.

out there, you know, you’re probably going to step in and say, Hey, that’s a great one. But it sounds like, you know, especially if you ask a few more questions, it sounds like you might guys might really enjoy this, which isn’t even on our website, but let’s go do it. So I’m just, I don’t know why I’m sharing that, but it’s, it kind of came from what you were saying about you just use the word. By the way, just for your listeners. Now this wasn’t a planned conversation. I can vouch for it. Like, you know, Jason didn’t like pre-recorded. I didn’t know. Like he didn’t send me an email saying we’re going to talk about it.

But that point, like, as we talked about a week ago, and we didn’t have enough time at the time to sort of like connect like we do now. That point, I can’t tell you how many times we’ve talked at the office with like Panos, my business partner is the co-founder and our guides, how many times we’ve talked about it, that exact point that you’re trying to make. Like people don’t necessarily know the logistics and…

destination. So our job is to make sure that we don’t represent what it is that we do. It sounds corny as hell, but I’m going to say it like we under promise but over deliver. There’s a reason that sort of like expression exists, right? And when we were starting, we could have just for the selling part of our business, right? The mainland is easy in Greece. You can get super adventurous and outgourcy.

Jason Elkins (34:32.986)
much everywhere and combine it with archaeological sites. When it comes to the sailing though, it’s weather dependent sort of like type of trip. Traveling on a sailboat is not something a lot of people are used to. It’s way better than, for example, a motorboat because it’s got a keel and stabilizers so there’s no usually sort of like seasickness issues like you get on motorboats or yachts and ferries. But at the same time,

it’s also your home. It’s like, you know, glamping in a camper van, for example, that’s how I describe it. But when it comes to destinations, like, you know, as a business, we could have been working in Mykonos and Santorini. I know you’ve never been to Greece, but I’m sure you know those names, right? The two most famous islands. Now the problem with those places is that they’ve been so affected by masquerade over the years that I never want to take people there.

I could be making way more money, like the business could be doing so much better if I chose the destinations, but I’m not going to have a good time there. And the people are not going to have a good time there because they’re going to be treated like moving wallets. Unfortunately, it’s the same in Ibiza, it’s the same in parts of, you know, in Capri, in Italy, all over the Mediterranean, all over the world, there’s places like that. During COVID, I went to Costa Rica to serve.

I’ve never been to Costa Rica before, so I didn’t know what to expect as far as the country goes. I like the jungle, I like surfing and all of that. But it was like being in parts of Florida, it was all around with tourists, especially the Tamaringo area, for example. And I’m not dishing on Costa Rica right now at all. It’s a beautiful country, super fun for outdoors and stuff. But it wasn’t what I expected because of mass tourists.

because they attract specific type of tourists that again, to its their own. If you wanna travel like that, you should definitely do it. Like, you know, who am I to tell you how to spend your money and your time? But the types, the type of guests we have are not like that. So our job is to make sure that, I do most of the Zoom calls with them prior to booking. So there’s sort of like this, I don’t know what you call it.

Jason Elkins (36:48.738)
this sort of like, you know, universe kind of talking to you and like there’s a giant shift and then they could just filter them and you sort of try to decide if they’re going to be right for that kind of trip, right? And then the ones that you think they’re not right for you, you will have to be very honest. And again, you have to be very honest because if you’re not and they become your guests,

If you can sense and based on each person’s experience, I think I’m pretty well with people to get what it is that they are expecting or what the wishes are when it comes to the experience itself where I can use that. Imagine.

staying on the upper part and I direct them somewhere else or I help them but they’re not going to be our guests. So I just give them pointers like maybe this is right for you. So my main argument when it comes to specifically the sailing trip is if you want to see Greek islands, there’s going to be tourists because there’s like 4,000 islands, 227 are inhabited. We’re going to go to somewhere, there’s going to be other tourists, but there’s not going to be the tourists.

the big cruise ships, you’re not going to be surrounded by tens of thousands of other tourists every single day. You might see tourists in like a little main town here and there, but that’s about it. If you want to see the road crystal, like what the Greek islands were in the 1980s and 90s before this sort of like European explosion of tourism in the Mediterranean, then you’re in for a treat. Like hands down, I can’t recommend me enough to take you there.

You should definitely do it. I want to spend time in like secluded bays, do your snorkeling and when it comes to snorkeling, you’re not going to see coral because this is not the Caribbean or the South Pacific is the Mediterranean. Are we going to see cool stuff? We can paddleboard, we can snorkel, we can swim and some of the cleanest waters in the world. And if you want to learn how to sail like the basics, literally learn the ropes, pun intended. And if you want to…

Jason Elkins (39:01.41)
go to little tiny, tiny villages where the locals, they’re gonna be appreciative that you flew from halfway around the world to visit their birthplace. If you wanna talk to local fishermen in the morning, if the food you wanna, you will, like if you wanna have grandmotherly food at a very inexpensive price, like better food than Mykonos at like maybe 20th of the price, I’m gonna take you where I eat. And just like you guys, I pay for my food. Like I don’t have any monetary incentive, I don’t, to take you to the place.

I don’t do commissions or freebies or any of that stuff that’s been going on for years. I’m here, go on TripAdvisor, find a restaurant. I know food. I’m a tiny person that has a lot of calories every day. So trust me, I know Greek food. It’s one of the few things that I know too well. My own health. So just trust me. Let me know what I do. And just like, you know.

come with me and you’ll see what my family, when they visit, what friends or friends of friends, when they visit us in Greece, you’re gonna experience what they experience. And this is the way I’m gonna treat you. That was so perfect and so important for people to hear. I think especially in the age of modern technology, social media, for example.

I know there’s people listening to this that either have done it or they know people that have done like they see an Instagram post. I want to go there and they get it in the head that they want to maybe it’s Mykonos or wherever, right? I want to go there. They decide that’s where they want to go and they go to Google and they type in Mykonos hotels tours, whatever. And when you reach out to that tour operator on Mykonos and say I want to go to Mykonos, you’re going to go to Mykonos.

Nobody tells you that there’s 800 people waiting in line to take that one Instagram photo. You know? You need to go like every week. Because in the summer it’s more like, you know, 20,000. Oh, okay, yeah. And when you start to see some of those Instagram spots and you start to realize how long they had to wait there and then they hand their phone to a local that takes the photo for them or the locals there with the camera, the phone and all that stuff and charging you 50 bucks to take the picture that.

Jason Elkins (41:21.674)
Nobody else can relate to it. And I think paying somebody to take a photo, that’s great. I’m just saying, I think a lot of times people get disappointed and it comes from the social media thing because we latch onto an idea of specific place. It’s also so easy to go book a hotel through some of the platforms, book flights, without ever having a conversation with anybody. There’s nobody in that, there’s no conversations with anybody. And the platforms that you’re using to book these things have no incentive necessarily to

say, hey, wait a minute, are you sure? Here, let me pan the camera around and show you what it’s really like. And what came up for me in that conversation that I think is so valuable is it’s kind of that having that trusted advisor. So it goes back to, I’m gonna use the analogy of real estate, because most people can relate to that. I can certainly relate to that. I worked in real estate. I was a real estate agent for a few years before I got back into traveling.

I didn’t particularly love it, which is why I’m not doing it anymore. Much more happy doing what I’m doing now. And but the analogy is the same off so many times. The real estate industry and just people that are buying homes have this mindset, I want to find the house first. So they go on to the Zillow platform, which could be just like Instagram or whatever. And they find the house. They’re like, yep, I want that house. They haven’t even driven by it, but they want it. And then they reach out to whoever’s name is.

paid ad on Zillow for that house that some realtor that may or may not even be attached to that house anyway whatsoever, reach out to them and say, I want to see this house. They get all focused on the house. And I’ve always suggested with my clients or anybody I spoke with, it’s like before you, you know, they haven’t even spoken to a lender. They don’t have a realtor to represent them. They just focus on the house. And they think if I find the house, whoever’s numbers on there was going to help me buy the house. Okay. So the reality is

If you find the real estate agent or the real estate professional that you can call and say, look, this is kind of what we’re looking for. This is what we’re trying to accomplish. These are our goals. And if that’s a professional realtor that can have a conversation with you about that, OK, great. Here’s a game plan. Let’s come up with a game plan. I’ve seen it. It’s much, much better results. And I believe it’s the same thing in tourism. So I guess boil it down to, OK, you think you want to go to Greece, give somebody like Stavokal.

Jason Elkins (43:45.442)
That’s part of why we’re doing this podcast. This is an opportunity for people listening to it to hear a variety of people. It’s a shameless bug. But I know. Well, it is. I mean, you’re not paying me. You’re not paying me to be here. I’m not paying you to be here. And it’s just advice. It’s like reach out. He said something before about like, you know, 800 people waiting for his selfie. So I had this experience a couple of months ago was in Iceland. Now I’ve never been to Iceland before. That was the first time. And I wanted to go for like forever.

Jason Elkins (44:17.519)
I chose the Western Fjords, right? Because I read online, I think it was Lonely Planet or something like that, that almost no one goes there. I think it’s 3% of all visitors to Iceland end up in the Western Fjords. It’s so out of the way, the roads are non-existent. So I ran the 4×4, it’s me and my wife and a few friends. We drive to the Western Fjords. We get literally, we go to Reykjavik, got the car, thing was like…

middle of the afternoon and then just by nightfall we’re in the Western Fjords. And we spent four or five nights up there just driving around and there was no one around. Like we had some places all to ourselves and I’m like Iceland is amazing. We have another maybe four or five days where we’re supposed to do the south of Iceland. And I knew it was going to be touristy now. I didn’t know how touristy that was going to be because you get to this waterfall and there’s literally like

we’re talking in size and it’s not that developed. There’s a little town here, a little fishing village there and then there’s like maybe three waterfalls and a gorge between those two areas. So there’s parking mates, there’s like tourist passes, like the big 50-seaters and all sorts of like… It’s like being outside of a Walmart on a Black Friday just to see that waterfall. So that was the first and the second day and then I was like we need to change things up.

because we have, you know, the day is long, so we have enough time. Most of the tourists, they’ll be there in the afternoon. They just try to go there at night. And by night, I mean like, you know, 11 p.m. when it’s still, the sun is still out, right? So you have to make adjustments. And then there’s this waterfall called Godfors, Godfors Falls or something like that. We get there, I could, you know, the line was over a mile, just like walking on the path. Just to see the one. Yeah.

Was it amazing? Yes. Did I enjoy it? Not at all. Because no matter how amazing the natural scenery was, I was surrounded by so many people and it was so loud. And it was, you know, from little families to just like, you know, elderly people that needed assistance because it’s slippery and all of that. That experience was great for me. I didn’t even want to take my camera out to take photos. Just to give you that, like, I love taking photos. It’s one of the few things that bring me so much joy.

Jason Elkins (46:43.094)
Whenever I feel sad, if I take a good photo, I’m happy again. I’m a simple person. But I didn’t want to take my… I didn’t want to reach into my camera bag. So there are places in Greece that I know, unfortunately, because there’s a reason. They’re beautiful. But you have the same sights, the same windmills, the same white horse law houses that you see in Mykonos. You have them on Chimolos. But Chimolos is 500 people.

maybe 300 in the winter permanent residence. It’s mostly older people. They speak English, like they will be excited to cook for you. Food is gonna be maybe, I don’t know, 15 euros a person at like a really nice, low authentic thing, including wine that they probably gonna, you know, it’s just like, oh, here’s some wine on the house. Cause they do that stuff. They’re not gonna rush you out. They’re not like, if you wanna have a bay all to yourself to go paddle boarding, you can do that.

And it causes less people. The infrastructure there might not be amazing when it comes to like, you know, public transportation, for example, but you can hike. And you’re not gonna have, you know, drunk tourists on motorbikes coming out of every corner and trying to kill you. So you get to, you get- It’s like a totally different country, right? I mean, your choice and where you go can be heavily influenced by who you have the conversation with is what I’m hearing.

And it’s almost like, okay, I have a conversation with you, say, yeah, I want good food. I want an authentic experience. I don’t want to be run over by, you know, tourists on motorbikes. And you help, and you helped me come up with something and it’s a totally different experience than someone else might have that also went to Greece. And that’s, I think where we owe it again, back to owing it to, to our clients, to really kind of understand really what’s important to them.

And you can’t do, I mean, you with your website, you’ve got a great website. You can put all kinds of stuff on your website. But that converse, who reads them? Who reads it, right? So that’s why the conversation is so great. I was just on another website earlier, and they’ve got, let’s book a call, not book the trip. Let’s book a call. Let’s jump on a console, have a conversation. Let’s see if we’re the right fit.

Jason Elkins (49:05.47)
And I can appreciate the consumers or travelers might look at that sometimes like, well, why do I need to do that? That’s old school. I should just be able to book it online immediately. But I actually think it’s a great thing. So anybody that’s listening to this, if you’ve got a tour operator or somebody likes, like Stav here, that’s like, hey, yeah, let’s jump on a call, do it. Because you might spend 30 minutes on the phone with Stav. You might decide, you know what? We wanna go to Mickenhouse and…

We want to go do all that stuff and Stav might say, well, OK, I’ll make a referral or whatever. But you’re so much more educated in making your choices and decisions. And I think there’s huge value in that. I think they choose us, but we also get to choose them. I don’t know if that makes sense. When it comes to our guests, prior to booking, I always do a video call.

it’s basically the conversation we’re having right now. It’s informal, it’s nothing planned. I asked them about themselves and what their expectations are. If they’ve been to Greece before, if they’ve been sailing before, if it’s a sailing trip, if they’ve been to Greece before, if they’re into archaeology, for example, so we can add in stuff to the itinerary that are going to cater to their specific interests. And it’s a relaxed conversation. And hopefully, we like one another enough.

they’ll email me afterwards and then be like, all right, so what we’re thinking of those days, when can you do that? I would say that’s about 70% of our business is done this way. A lot of it is word of mouth nowadays is we’ve been at it for like 10 years. We’re lucky enough to, at least the one, the tour groups that I’ve guided myself, I can definitely say that I remember every single one of my guests.

I still remember their names. So if my memory fades at some point, it’s not going to be due to lack of enthusiasm on my part. I think I’m going to get home. Is that doxycycline or whatever it was you said you were taking? I don’t know if it affects the brain. For now, I’m okay. But down the road, you know, we’re going to have another video call.

Jason Elkins (51:16.646)
And then I’m going to insist, because it’s usually like one or two people that are booking the trip, but then they’re going to add friends or maybe family members. I’m going to insist like everyone. Let’s get all, I’ll get on the same page. Is that what you’re saying? Basically, I’m going to make sure that they’re well prepared for whatever type of trip they booked with us for whatever type of food, that specific time of year. So if we’re doing like river rafting under the Peloponnese and then just like hiking in Southern Greece, then I’m going to let them know. So,

you know, make sure your shoes are comfortable. They get a packing list and all of that, but I feel like, again, like you said, you send a ton of information like PDFs, a lot of people skim it. They’ll read it the day before, you know, as they’re packing. Yeah, something like that. Oh crap, I don’t have any hiking boots. I’m sure that Stal will have that taken care of. Well, the other thing I always tell them is like, don’t overpack. Just so you know, one of the reasons I’m…

I’m kind of proud of myself. I’m not proud of many things in life, but I’m proud that I can pack, I can carry on bag and go on a three or four month trip with that. So that’s what I told them. I’m like, don’t overpack. Don’t like anything you feel you’re missing. It’s Europe. Like, you know, we have supermarkets and big like supply chain. You can buy it here. Probably cheaper as well because you don’t have to pay VAT tax here as foreigners. So, you know, don’t pack in two towels. You’re not going to need it. Like just pack one.

If you feel like anything, guess what? You can buy something like five years on an island somewhere. That’s that is so cool. And I’m going to just real quick, go back to when you said that, that first call that you do and what came up was like, anybody listening to this, if you feel like you are set up a call with an operator and you feel like they’re also trying to decide if they want to work with you, that’s a good thing. Um, because any operator that will just take anybody.

You gotta just, I mean, maybe they do a great job. Maybe the experiences they offer are lined up to where they can accommodate everybody. Cause sometimes there are packages that you can say, well, everybody will enjoy this. But if you’re doing something a little special or you want it to be special and you’re thinking, I’m not sure this, like this guy’s asking me all these questions about myself. Why is that? Well, I think that’s why. And it’s a good thing. And I mean, I remember in real estate, we’d say, you know,

Jason Elkins (53:38.346)
My goal is to help you achieve your goals and exceed your expectations. If at any point during this conversation, I don’t think I’m gonna be able to do that, I will let you know. And so we can part as friends instead of me disappoint you later on down the road. You could say that same thing. So if you ever meet somebody like Stav and they’re saying something like that, that’s a really, really good thing because they actually want you to have a good time. They’re not just trying to sell you a trip. So I’m happy the conversation went this direction. I had no idea that it would, like we said earlier, let’s just have a conversation.

I appreciate that. Boy, I mean, I feel like we could probably just have several conversations. And I wanna be respectful of listeners. I think we’ve covered a lot of great stuff and tips, but I’m also curious about what, cause we didn’t know which direction it was gonna go. What questions should I have asked you? Or is there anything I missed? Is there anything about, Bering True South or Greece that you think

you want to add to that before we wrap it up? Again, it’s going to sound like a plug. Anyways, okay, so if you haven’t been to Greece, it’s not because I’m Greek. I do recommend it as a destination. There’s a reason I moved back here. I live here. My wife who is against is not Greek, born and raised in London. She’s been here 17 years. It’s a beautiful country.

it’s highly underrated when it comes to a lot of stuff. So a lot of my Canadian friends, they don’t know that we have really good heliskiing here. Or like, you know, if you’re into snowboarding and like, you know, snow stuff, which I don’t really do, but like you can do it. The geographical diversity is insane. And the food is even more insane.

I think it’s part of the reason why we’re here is we have farmers markets in every neighborhood on a different day of the week in Athens. You can buy amazing produce at low prices. You can have really good food ranging from gourmet restaurants to low mom and pop stores. I’m not going to complain about quality of life living here, but as a traveler, because you only have a limited amount of time.

Jason Elkins (56:03.398)
If you want to experience a tiny bit of that, make sure that you do it by avoiding the super touristy stuff. Because just like anywhere in the world, anywhere you go, it could be from Cape Town, South Africa to Bogota, Colombia, where you are now, right now, anywhere in the world. If you go to a place that has a lot of tourists, you’re gonna have that experience. So your cultural

Jason Elkins (56:33.214)
that expression quite a bit today. Part of the reason I still travel and I have trips planned for next year, I think I’m heading to Florida in about a month to spend Christmas there. I strive for that every single time and one of the ways I can achieve it, I don’t always achieve it by the way. There are places, for example, Japan was kind of hard to achieve it for a number of reasons.

I still had a fantastic time. I would go back in heartbeat. But whenever I go somewhere, I strive for that. I strive for cultural immersion. I want to walk in the local sues, if that makes sense. And I can do it not just with the sites, but with my conversations with the food, talking to people who are doing stuff that I know nothing about. So for example, if you’re not into fishing,

and you come to Greece, like make sure if you wake up early in the morning, you’re out of the cell, but you’re getting your espresso right across the street, you’re gonna see the fish in them, like between four and six, every island in the summertime, they’re gonna be bringing out whatever they caught the night before. Just go and talk to them. Like have that conversation, that’s important. And it’s something that you’re not gonna be able to do. In my view, I might be wrong. I don’t think I am though. It’s not something you’re gonna be able to do if you book like a group.

thing where it’s like 50 random people from all over the world, super low price that are going to do the classical Athens, Meteora, Mykonos, Santorini and then you fly back out or you do like five European countries in nine days. Like you’re not going to be able to do that. I’m not saying it’s about if that’s your thing, do it. Obviously do it. But if you’re looking for cultural immersion, make sure you have, you know, make sure you try to…

read about it a bit more. Like it doesn’t need to be me, doesn’t need to be staff from Bering to South, it doesn’t need to be Jason. It could be Wikipedia, it could be like a really cool novel that you read from a Greek person and you get inspiration from that. It could be whatever, a TV show that, a documentary, whatever it is, just like try, you’re spending good money, you’re spending good time, just try to make sure that you do a tiny bit of research or you hire someone that’s going to help you with that, that’s going to take over. So you

Jason Elkins (58:52.59)
immersive experience. Life is too short to sort of like, you know, just do yourself in front of the Pantheon in Rome and, you know, the Eiffel Tower in Paris and, you know, whatever, the dome, the sphere in Las Vegas. And yeah, I did see that actually. I flew in there not too long ago. I haven’t yet. I haven’t yet. It’s interesting, but it’s, I’m not going to go out of my way. I know it’s following planes. We’re flying in. What’s that?

It’s like a smiley face that’s been following planes flying over it. Oh, that’s cool. Yeah, it’s cool. I’m not going to make a trip to go see it myself. And I love everything you shared was spot on. And I agree with you, like if people want to travel that, you know, we all have our different preferences. If I would much rather see people get on a plane to go get on a cruise ship to go travel the Caribbean on a cruise ship and get off the boat a few times.

than just sit at home, because I think there’s still some value in that. It’s all about connection. I’m sure if you’re on a cruise ship with 5,000 people, there’s gonna be some connection going on. A lot of the staff work other places or from other countries, you’ll have connect, whatever. So I’m not knocking it. And I personally, when I’m trying to decide where I wanna spend time, I tend to kind of look for the places honestly, where I don’t.

where I feel like I’m least likely to see other tourists. And I’m not trying to sound elitist or snobby or whatever. I just know that I will have a more immersive experience. We’re recording this call early November. I was in a small town south of Medellin for Halloween. I was in the town for a week. I went there because I was pretty sure I wouldn’t see tourists. And not that I don’t like tourists. I work in tourism. Of course, I like tourists. And I really wanted to connect with other culture.

And I went down there and I was in the town square and there were three, 4,000 people there, the kids trick or treating, everybody in costumes. I’ll use the word gringo. I don’t find it offensive. I’m gonna say I was the only gringo there. And I was like, I already had the story planned. If anybody asked me what I dressed up for Halloween, I came as the gringo. I’m pretty sure I was the only person from North America in maybe in that whole little city, but definitely in that town square. And it was that.

Jason Elkins (01:01:13.87)
Coolest experience. It was adventure travel. It was Halloween. I sat there at a beer and a bag of candy and I’m handing out candy to the kids. And as far as I’m concerned, that was adventure travel. And there were other people in the more popular areas of the city doing their own thing with a bunch of other tourists and that’s fine. So yeah. I think that you were the coolest trick or treater to ever happen to the whole town the way you describe it. Oh, it was, it was the coolest thing. And you know, and I’ve got kids. I’ve been on.

I’ve had some I have amazing trick or treating and Halloween memories. But just to see how they do it here without any, you know, I mean, I don’t know if they always did Halloween. I don’t know if that’s something they brought in kind of a thing from somewhere else or not, but man, they do it right. And it’s like the families are there. They’re the Colombian people are amazing just the way that their ability to connect and socialize with each other. So and I suspect that the Greek people are the same.

because I feel very, very. And I think that’s almost a stereotype that Greek people are that way. So there’s nobody listening to this. It’s like, where’d you come up with that? Let’s just say there’s a lot of similar culture. I wanted to ask you something and I’m gonna jump away from that point, but I have a question for you. So you had that experience, right? You were on a few people, there’s language barriers and you had that experience.

Have you ever had an experience where you’re in a place and you’re doing your best to fit in, to sort of like connect with people, but it doesn’t go well? So that’s what I wanna hear about. It’s because it’s fun to talk about like the night stuff, but I wanna hear like that kind of thing. All right. I will preface this with, I am a single man with broken Spanish who does date on occasion.

And occasionally it’s women that don’t really speak or mention English. So yeah, that’s probably all I need to say. Do you think that there have been times where there was miscommunication or I’m trying to think of a good example that pops in my head. Definitely get the weird looks cause I think I know exactly what I’m gonna say. I walk in sometimes to a tienda or a market or something and I’m just, oh, this is a good one.

Jason Elkins (01:03:40.334)
I was in Mexico in, I don’t even remember where I was, but it was in Mexico at a fish market. And I was walking through, because I just like to go check stuff out. I’m not buying any fish. I don’t even have any way to cook it, which was kind of the rest of the story. And I was walking through there and I know enough Spanish to understand and the guys were asking me if I’d like to buy any fish. And I kind of just granted them

probably I look like I don’t live there. And I just looked at them and I thought I said, I don’t even have a kitchen. And cocina is kitchen in Spanish. Cocina is a totally different word. And I’m actually know some Spanish. And I’m not gonna go into detail exactly what that means. But I looked at these guys and I said, no tengo cocina. And they looked at me, started laughing. And I’m like…

What’s so funny? Is it funny that I don’t have a kitchen? Do I look like I live here? I just could not get my head around it. And they just looked and snickered at each other. And I’m just like, okay, I smiled and walked away and went around the corner and then tried to figure out how many different variations of the word I needed to put into my Google Translate before I could figure out what I actually said and what it meant. And yeah, that was stuff like that. I think that counts as like accidental cultural immersion.

So, inadvertent, if you will. It’s fun. I think it’s fun when stuff like that happens. Like when you strike out with local people, it’s, you know, besides the funny anecdote that you’re gonna share with people down the road, I think it also puts you in your place. And if you’re accidentally funny, then it’s…

It works both ways. Like it’s a lesson for you, but it’s also like something memorable for the locals as well. Oh yeah. As long as you smile, like you gotta be like, you have to have a good sense of humor. Because if they’re laughing at you, you know what? It’s not a personal thing. You might have said or done something funny. You might look funny. I don’t know. But I think if you smile back and just engage with them, there’s that connection. Like, because I connected with those guys. I mean,

Jason Elkins (01:05:59.114)
I don’t know what they felt, but I felt a connection. And I was like, that is cool. And I think part of it, when you make a mistake, especially with language, if I make a mistake with my Spanish, it’s interesting how often all of the sudden they speak English. It’s like, you know, and I think a lot of people, I had this experience when I was a teenager in France, you know, in the subway as, you know, some woman came up to me, started speaking French.

had a question and I kind of gave her the look and she decided, you know, I think I asked her and I knew a little French and I, but it was obvious I spoke English and she just got kind of whatever and turned to walk away and then I went to continue the conversation in my broken French and all of a sudden she spun right around and she started speaking English to me, you know, and it was so my broken Spanish gives other people permission.

use their broken English because I’m not going to judge them. I’m making an effort, they’re making an effort. And all of a sudden the dynamic just totally changed. By the way, your experience in France is very similar to a lot of my experiences there. And I’ve heard that from other people. I speak French, it’s just not good enough that I will be more comfortable conversing in English. But I know when I’m in France, I will make my absolute

very best effort to be sort of like, you know, conversing in their language because they do appreciate it. They really appreciate it. And back to it, we were just discussing about kind of getting away from those tourist areas. Paris is an interesting city. I’m not, I really enjoy Paris. And probably a week later, we were in the Metz-Nancy region out in a small village around villagers.

and I used my broken French and we were invited to, you know, have bread and wine and cheese. And it was just a totally different experience because they probably don’t see as many tourists. So when they don’t see many and then one shows up that’s making an effort, it really can go a long way. And so I always encourage people to try and learn a few words at least, you know. You stand out from the average tourist, I think. I remember, I think it was about like 10 years ago,

Jason Elkins (01:08:27.178)
I had this thing in Kyrgyzstan in the summer, like the nomads, they bring the horses from the winter to the summer pastures. So we’re staying in this yurt camp with the family. And it was the grandmother, like they all spoke kind of Kyrgyz and then some Russian. My Russian isn’t good. Like I know maybe 100 words, that’s about it.

sort of like lack of communication when it comes to war. So we had to resort to like science and some stuff. But I’d wake up every morning because I noticed the first night war at the camp that the grandmother of the family, like the matriarch, said would go out just before sunrise to milk the horses. They make this thing called humus. It’s the most disgusting thing in the world. It’s fermented mare’s milk.

It’s as bad as it sounds, but they love it, right? It’s a source of alcohol for them, they party. And for my friend, Alex, who was with me at the time, he actually enjoyed it for some reason. He’s Greek, he shouldn’t be enjoying it. So anyways, I could, you know, I spent I think maybe four or five days just like waking up every morning, I was smiling at the grandmother, I was like trying to be all cute and stuff, like, you know, oh, look at me, you know, I’m so fat.

by, you know, you’re milking horses. Like I’ve never seen that before. I didn’t know you could milk a horse. But, you know, she would never smile at me, ever, zero. She was just like this cool person, just calculating, doing her job, and then just going about her day. Then I remember I was trying, even at the very last day I was there, I was trying to get, like, I even went in for a hug, as we’re like living the time.

Jason Elkins (01:10:22.743)
But I was so, I was like, I’m gonna get her like, you know, at least pretend to like me. And I’ve traveled enough around Central Asia to notice that if you smile a lot, it’s in their culture. The smiley people or like people who smile for no reason, which is something I often do.

Jason Elkins (01:10:47.518)
like you’re considered a person who’s not so smart to put it like. Ah, interesting. Okay. So I had no idea at the time. I was like, I was being, you know, those little Disney cartoons from like the 1960s where your eyes get bigger and you’re like, you know, I like me. Why don’t you like me? And she’s thinking this guy has problems. Oh, that person has like a mental disability, obviously.

You know, maybe the other guy, my friend Alex, who was with me was like his guardian or something, you know. Oh, isn’t that nice? Yeah, it’s a cultural faux pas. I had no idea about the part of the culture, but guess what? You know, I made myself look like a fool. I don’t regret it for one second. I didn’t get a hug at the end. I didn’t get like a smile or laughter. But in the long run, I learned about, you know, this bit. And if there’s any Kyrgyz people listening in.

Please tell me I’m right, because otherwise I’ve been living in Lai since August of 2014. It’s funny when we travel, because sometimes we do. We notice something that’s a little different, and then we either create our own story to explain it, or we listen to another tourist who doesn’t know, but they’ve got their story. And sometimes we walk away thinking, oh, well, I know something about the Colombian culture, the Malaysian culture.

And then later on you speak with somebody who really does know and they’re like, no, that’s not why. It’s not why they behave that way. They do it because of this way. Now, in my case, though, in this case, if I’m wrong and there is a good chance I am wrong, I’ve spoken to three people, they told me the same thing, I assume. They’re either telling the truth or they didn’t want to offend me. Because the other, if I’m wrong, it means that I’m unlikable.

And I don’t like that. I don’t want to be the unlikable person in that scenario. I want to be like, you know, do typical over-eager sort of like tourist. And that’s a good point. Cause there’s, you said, if I’m wrong, you know, they didn’t correct me. They’re trying to be nicer. And that is a thing too. There are definitely some cultures that they’re not going to tell you, you know, if you say,

Jason Elkins (01:13:07.638)
Heard it was this way. Am I right? They’re just gonna okay, they’re not gonna they’re conflict avoidant So you get to be a little careful and just understand that if you and even to the point where you might say Can I have this? You know, will you bring me something later today? Will you deliver something later today and they’ll just be like, okay No one damn well

that they don’t have it, they don’t even have it in the country and they’re never going to see you again. So, which is fine. It’s a cultural thing and it can be difficult to adjust to if your expectations are different. So I just say keep an open mind when things go what you feel like as things went sideways to them, it might not be sideways. So just look at it like I was on a bus that broke down the other day on the side of the road. And it was from the city down to Caldas where I was staying for the Halloween thing.

And the bus just stops. Nobody moved. Nobody said a thing. The driver got out, walked around the bus a few times, kind of disappeared, and everybody’s just sitting there patiently. 10, 15 minutes, no chattering. And I’m hoping someone will say something so I can try and interpret what they’re saying and figure out what’s going on. And finally I was like, well, I guess, maybe I can order an Uber. So I ordered an Uber and I got a…

to get off the bus to go get on the Uber, everybody was still sitting there perfectly quiet. I don’t know how long they were willing to wait. I offered, I said, you know, I looked at a couple of people and I said, you know, yo tengo un Uber, si tu quieres, tu puedes seguir conmigo, you know, so I’ve got an Uber if you want, you can go with me. It’s gratis, it’s free. So a couple of people stood up, followed me off the bus and everybody else, as far as I know, were sitting there an hour later. So that’s not what typically would happen where I grew up. If the bus broke down on the side of the road.

But at the same time, I was like, I didn’t get upset either because I’m like, hey, they’re not upset. I’m not upset. I’m in their place. It’s part of being exposed to different cultures, part of being sort of like living in a different part of the world. And if you do, if you sort of like, you know, leave a little bit of pre-conceptions that we have about specific areas, cultures, people, whatever you want to call it. If you leave them at home and you actually have

Jason Elkins (01:15:28.782)
I know it sounds like a horrible, I speak with glycase today and I apologize for that. But if you leave those things at home and you actually try to go with the flow as much as you can, you’re gonna have a great time. Which, if you start fighting it, if you start fighting the system and by system, I mean, it’d be the way you buy, I don’t know, train tickets in Siberia, or it can be the way you wait in line.

in like a border crossing in Eastern Africa. It could be, you know, whatever it is. If you start, like if the locals are doing it specific way and you go over and you’re like, you know what, this is how we do it at home and go back in Ohio or Athens, Greece or whatever. This is the way we do things and then you’re gonna have a bad time. And it’s…

be a teaching moment for most people, because there’s usually aggression that goes with it. They’re not likely to, they’re not likely to look at you and say, wow, that’s a great idea. Yeah. Okay, everybody. Let’s, let’s move the line around the other way. It’s going to change minds. You’re not going to be fine. If you go with the flow, like there’s a reason things are being done in a way, in a specific way, if you go with the flow, if you sort of like, you know what? They’re doing it this way. Let me wait in line.

It might be no line. Maybe people are gathering. Let me gather with that and I’ll get my clean people. Sometimes just see a gathering. I’ve gone, I’ve literally just gone and stand, stood in gatherings, not even know why I’m standing there, but thinking something’s gonna happen. There’s not, they’re all standing here waiting for something. Something interesting is gonna happen. And I’ve seen the coolest things by just walking down the street. I looked down an alleyway and I see a bunch of people. My mom probably doesn’t wanna hear this, but.

And I’m like, oh, something’s interesting, must be happening down there. So I walked down there and it’s a food stall with the best food I’ve ever had. Or I don’t condone this, but I saw a rooster fight in Indonesia. I had no idea what it was. I was just walking down the road. I saw this kind of tent thing with a bunch of people standing around. And I thought, man, I gotta go see what’s going on over there. It was not a pleasant experience, but it was their thing. It’s their, you know, no judgment. Wasn’t really for me. And…

Jason Elkins (01:17:46.71)
When I walked in, I was surprised how gracious everybody was to welcome me in. Again, the only gringo and this guy pulled a chair over and set it there so I could stand on top of the chair so I could actually see what was going on. It was an interesting experience. What’s that? Did you play a sub bet? I did not. I did not bet. Cause I know I’m like, okay, I’m viewing this. I’m not condoning it. I’m not supporting it. I’m not participating. And it was going to happen whether I was there or not. And I also was not.

like you said, I also was not the one to say, well, hey, we don’t do this back in Ohio. So basically, what you’re saying is you had an authentic experience in Indonesia as a foreigner, and the alternative would have been you going in there and telling them all about animal rights and PETA and everything else and then they would have turned those roosters loose on me. I’ve been to Indonesia and now I know what the reaction like the alternative reaction would be.

So yeah, that was, you had a memorable experience. You experienced a cultural event. You connected with a local person, the person who gave you the chair. If you were the only foreigner there, that means that, oh, that was like properly authentic. That was cool. And you know where it all started, cause it’s related, is I’d gone out, I’d taken, I’d gotten on the back of a motorcycle with what they call a grab bike.

and he rode me out into the rice paddies. And when I got ready to come back, they, oh, you can’t get a grab out here because it’s something about the taxi union. There weren’t any taxi cars. And I was like, ah, I’ll just walk. Like I didn’t get upset that, oh my gosh, I can’t get the equivalent of an Uber. I’m like, you know what? I’ll just walk back. It was only four or five miles. And I knew I’d see some cool stuff as I walked back. I saw that what I just shared. I met a nice young woman at a food stand who helped me.

pick out food, even though she had really no English. And I was just like, you know, what do you like? And I got the exact same plate she did. I paid for both of us. And she had her, she handed her friend to her friend, her phone to her friend and asked her to take a picture. So then I took a selfie and it was like this, this just this moment that you just, that’s what you get when you are willing to just kind of go do things that, you know, when you just accept that, okay, the culture, whatever.

Jason Elkins (01:20:12.046)
I can’t get a linober here, so I’m going to walk. And I think it’s great. The best things have come up for me when I’ve just do stuff like that. And I’m sure the same with you. I’m sure you have a ton of stories because you’ve been to some places that are even more off the beaten path than I have, which we’ll have to discuss those next time. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I had it like, I don’t do podcasts often. I think you were my second podcast ever. I have to say that was amazing.

Well, thank you. It’s like we’re conversing like normal people. Yeah, well, that was the plan. And I want to share with you, and I shared it with you right before I hit the record button. Last time we spoke, you discussed the quiet time before the quiet time. This is important. So I want to mention this. As I was trying to explain the first time we spoke, I was trying to explain kind of what I envisioned this as like, well, you know, when you’re done at the end of the day, and you sit down, and you’re having a conversation with your guests, I just want it to be like that. We don’t need to prepare for it. Let’s just have a conversation.

I think you said, oh yeah, the quiet time before the quiet time. And I’m like, oh, so explain that real quick and then we’ll wrap it up. So I don’t know, it’s a silly term that I use to describe the end of like a guiding day for me, where like you know you’re going to be going to bed soon. So you know, you’ve done your job. Hopefully everyone had fun and they had unique experiences, whatever it is that we did that day.

But it’s also the moment when people, because like the guests know they’re gonna be going to bed soon, right? So whether we’re at like a hotel patio or like a cellboat deck, whatever it is, wherever you are. I think it’s the best time during the day to like properly connect with people. Because a lot of defenses at that point are down, like, you know, physical exertion, sort of like, you know.

mental exertion because you’ve taken so much information in my experiences, whatever it is. So for me, I’m very receptive to, I’m always interested in other people. And through this job, I’ve met people who have been doing things that I knew nothing about. They had experiences that I had no connection to whatsoever. And I love learning.

Jason Elkins (01:22:33.61)
So this is when I tried to connect, I think with my guests the most. This is that like little window between maybe nine and 10 30 PM, or maybe if it’s a fascinating conversation, maybe like 11 or midnight. But yeah, I’ve been lucky enough, like we had guests that had backgrounds are so diverse, like we had Mennonites, I knew nothing. Like I didn’t know what Mennonites were.

I’ve met Mennonites, I think in Paraguay at some point, but I didn’t know it was, I thought it was Mormons. So then you get to, you know, learn about that specific part of that culture. And for me, that’s fascinating. It’s my anthropology at college, right? So you get to learn about like, you know, the way they live their lives, their faith, their dietary habits, you name it. But it’s something that I know nothing about. So I gained from that. I gained from that conversation. People who, you know,

Hi, Gary, my friend Gary, who was a guest once upon a time. I just flew to Rome a couple of weeks ago to see him, like, because we’re friends now, who was in the casino business in Vegas, right? It was a pit boss. Like, all I knew about casinos was like the movie from, you know, from like 15, 20 years ago, and maybe what you see on TV on occasion. Like, I know there’s things in there and all of that. I’m not a gambler.

But there’s like, you know, you talk to that person, you get their story. I was working with police officers. I’ve served way back when as a medic. So, you know, people who have a military background, we can connect on a few things there. But then there’s also people that are, I don’t know, like a hairdresser from New England or, you know, people who are missionaries or, you know, a carpenter from Oregon.

These are all places and people that I wouldn’t have a chance to talk to if it wasn’t for what it is that I do. And then during the quiet time before my quiet time is where I’m not going to say it’s the best part of my day, but for sure it’s the most interesting part of my day. Because like I’m sharing and I’m sharing about the culture increase through, I don’t know, personal experiences or through the science, but I can gain stuff.

Jason Elkins (01:24:56.57)
Like, and it’s not a, you know, it’s not a trade necessarily. And some people maybe don’t want to open up too well, or they don’t know how to open up, or they don’t feel comfortable, especially the first couple of days of the trip. But I can’t tell you how many times at the end of the week, I have so much more knowledge. Like if you asked me about farming in Nebraska, actually like three years ago, I would have said, I know nothing about it. I know there’s like corn and maybe potatoes. I’m not sure.

But now I know like there’s farmers that they use sensors and like drones and robots and they have like little weather stations in their fields and they’re using complex algorithms and it’s so much different from like farming 30, 40 years ago like a generation ago. And the reason I know that because we had guests from Nebraska who were farmers and they started telling me about their daily life. You are so right. I think that is definitely one of the perks of working in this business.

is that you’ve got people from a wide variety of backgrounds, locations, cultures, basically coming to you. And especially if you have an operation where you’re spending that quiet time before the quiet time with the clients. Because I recognize sometimes at the end of the day, the guides go home and you don’t have that. But like when you’re on a boat with somebody or you’re at a lodge, you’ve got that opportunity. You mentioned farming in Nebraska and it immediately reminded me of a couple that we.

had visit us when I was managing a resort in Belize. And I say resort loosely, like a lodge. And they were, I think it’s called, someone put in the comment, I think it’s apiary, or they do bees, and they have big beehives and they travel across the country with them in the summers for the pollination stuff. And I remember I probably asked them a hundred questions and I think they enjoyed sharing the conversation. I don’t know.

But I learned about something that I just really knew nothing about. And there’s so many examples of that. And it’s such a rewarding thing. I wouldn’t want to skip that part if I’m with clients. And you gave me the option, said, well, OK, we’re done eating dinner at 630. You can take off, disappear, or you can hang out with the clients and the guests. Guess where I’m at? You probably already figured I like talking and having conversations. But anyway, stop.

Jason Elkins (01:27:15.298)
Thank you so much, such a wealth of information and just a really interesting conversation that I think we’ve had that quiet time before your quiet time. What time is it there now? It’s, I don’t know, 25 to 10 at night. I think we just had it. We’ll name this episode Quiet Time before it stops Quiet Time. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. Jason, thank you so much for making time for me. We’ll keep in touch. We’ll do this again. I wanna know more about your…

you know, your experiences. We will, I think. We’ll go ahead and talk about the conversation a bit. Yeah, you were the guest on the show. That’s the way it’s supposed to be, Stav. So maybe next time you can come back, you can interview me. All right, perfect. It’s not really an interview. It’s not really an interview, is that it’s just a conversation. All right, thanks, Stav. Perfect. All right, thank you, bye. Bye.

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