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Enjoy early access to Stefano’s story here; before it is published to all of the popular platforms on September 29, 2026.

Episode #204: Stefano Tricanico

Expedition Director and Founder

Driftr

Episode #204: Stefano Tricanico
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Guest Bio

Stefano Tricanico is the Expedition Director and Founder of Driftr, bringing over twenty years of experience in leading expeditions and managing field operations in some of the world’s most remote and challenging environments, including the Arctic and Antarctic regions. His background spans expedition leadership, maritime operations, and field safety systems, with extensive involvement in frontline conservation efforts. Stefano’s work focuses on verifying conservation projects in difficult-to-access areas, ensuring accountability and transparency where enforcement is scarce or absent.

Show Summary

In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Stefano Tricanico about his unique approach to conservation verification through his company, Driftr. Stefano explains how many conservation projects claiming to protect vulnerable species and environments often lack measurable results or even a real presence on the ground. He offers an independent field verification service for donors, helping ensure that funds go to projects that genuinely deliver impact.

The conversation dives deep into the complex realities of conservation in remote regions like the Arctic, touching on the controversial topic of polar bear hunting and the contradictions between public messaging and actual practices. Stefano shares insights from his frontline experience working with organizations like Sea Shepherd and discusses the challenges of protecting wildlife amid geopolitical, cultural, and traditional pressures. The episode also explores the practical difficulties of enforcing conservation laws in isolated marine and wilderness areas.

Later, Stefano reflects on his personal journey from growing up in South Africa to becoming an expedition leader and maritime professional, emphasizing the importance of competence, independent thinking, and confronting uncomfortable truths in conservation and adventure travel.

Key Takeaways

  • ✓ Conservation projects often lack independent field verification, making donor accountability difficult.
  • ✓ Driftr provides on-the-ground verification to assess whether conservation efforts meet their claimed milestones.
  • ✓ Polar bear populations are legally hunted in Canada, with quotas and financial incentives fueling ongoing harvests.
  • ✓ The mainstream narrative about endangered species can conflict with on-the-ground realities and traditional practices.
  • ✓ Effective wildlife protection requires physical presence, such as patrols and enforcement, not just designated protected areas on maps.
  • ✓ Frontline conservation work can be dangerous and complex, involving direct conflict with poachers and illegal operators.
  • ✓ Transparency and measurable results are rarely demanded in conservation funding, unlike other industries.
  • ✓ Independent exploration and technical competence have been key in Stefano’s career as an expedition leader and conservation specialist.
  • ✓ Challenging assumptions and seeking multiple perspectives is essential to understanding conservation issues fully.
  • ✓ Buying back hunting tags could be a practical, direct method to reduce legal hunting pressure on vulnerable species like polar bears.

What You’ll Find on Driftr

  • ✓ Independent field verification services for conservation projects, ensuring transparency and accountability for donors.
  • ✓ Expertise in operating safely and effectively in remote, harsh, and logistically challenging environments worldwide.
  • ✓ Evidence-based assessments of conservation claims, including wildlife population counts and habitat monitoring.
  • ✓ Support for multi-agency efforts addressing illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing and wildlife trafficking.
  • ✓ A discreet, third-party approach that does not work for conservation organizations but provides unbiased reporting.
  • ✓ Experience bridging expedition leadership, maritime operations, and frontline conservation realities.

Learn more about Driftr and connect with Stefano at:

https://driftr.world

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Podcast Transcript

This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.

Jason (01:10)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. So happy to have each and every one of you back today and also very excited to have a wonderful guest for you today. We’ve got Stefano Tricanico. Stefano is the expedit or I I don’t know if it’s the expedition director, but he’s an expedition director and founder of Driftr. Stefano, welcome to the show. Happy to have you here.

Stefano Tricanico (01:34)
Thank you, Jason. Happy to be here.

Jason (01:36)
So I kinda stumbled over it. He’s the expedition director. Are you the expedition director? Or w help us understand that part of your title?

Stefano Tricanico (01:45)
Both. I work as expedition

Jason (01:47)
Yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (01:48)
director or slash leader on expedition cruise ships, but I am the expedition director at Driftr, which is the company I started recently to solve

a very specific problem.

Jason (02:00)
And we’re gonna jump right into that because I want our listeners to get kind of an idea what the heck is Driftr. So probably

Stefano Tricanico (02:06)
Yeah.

Jason (02:06)
how we’ll do this is let’s without going into the history of how you got there, because we’re gonna do that. We’ve got an hour or so to do that. But

Stefano Tricanico (02:13)
Yeah.

Jason (02:14)
let’s start with what the heck is Driftr, what is your your very specific mission that you’re on, and then we’ll kind of figure out how the heck you got there.

Stefano Tricanico (02:22)
Yeah, sure. Well, just a little short intro into it. I’ve been doing a lot of conservation work, direct action conservation work at sea and with my travels as expedition leader to the Arctic region and Antarctic regions.

I started to notice a very specific problem that a lot of conservation projects that are claiming to be working in these areas either don’t exist or they are not achieving what they are claiming to achieve. So I started Driftr as a sort of a field verification process or step that I offered to donors before they release money to conservation organizations to go out into the field and assess whether these projects exist,

what exists on the ground, whether they’re meeting their milestones or actually achieving what they are claiming to achieve because conservation in general is one of the few, let’s call it an industry, because there are billions and billions of dollars going into conservation every year, that is rarely held accountable for the claims that they make. everything else, even if you sell a product or you’re…

Selling a property or you you have a company that you want people to invest in

Generally people are going to hold you accountable to what you claim. They’re going to send some kind of verification. They’re going to send an auditor or an inspector to come and have a look and see whether this thing exists, if it exists as you say it does, before the money is released. In conservation, these organizations get to make all kinds of claims about, you know, saving species, saving ecosystems, rainforests, and even the entire planet in certain cases. And there is no system by

which they are held accountable for what they say or any of this can be verified other than what they self-report, which can be problematic in its own way because they benefit the most from receiving the money. So self-reporting your claims and results can be problematic. And I’ve noticed, especially in the Arctic, and we’ll talk about the polar bear, I use that as the case study, that a lot of these projects

In fact many either don’t exist or they are just dabbling in stuff that really doesn’t have any effect in the conservation of the polar bear and there’s a lot of hypocrisy and controversy.

in the whole conservation industry when it comes to polar bears. But so I started Driftr to kind of add a verification process other than just the normal desk diligence that most donors have. have the advisors in the office do a bit of research, check up on some reports. But beyond that, I will go out into the field and document the project to whatever level they need and then come back and provide them with a third party

I don’t work for any conservation organizations. I’ll just present to them what I find and then they can make an informed decision as to whether they want to invest in their project, whether they want to start a new one. I can go on the ground. We can do anything from animal counts. mean, with technology now you can count individual trees, you know, if that’s the case. And then we can keep track of how these things evolve, whether they’re having an effect year to year. And because this is an issue, because in the past,

last 100 years, think there’s about 2.5 million square kilometres have been downgraded or lost their status entirely from being protected.

And we have a problem with these projects. The moment the money runs dry, they either stop altogether or they get re-designated or the infrastructure falls apart and it just goes back into being the Wild West again. And generally the first thing to suffer are the species they were trying to protect or the environment they were trying to protect in the first place. The moment

Jason (06:04)
Right.

Stefano Tricanico (06:04)
the fences come down, the moment the guards turn away, you know, everyone comes back in and cleans up house, which is

common practice I’ve noticed.

Jason (06:14)
Wow.

Stefano Tricanico (06:15)
As far as I know, I’m the only company offering or the only person so far, from what I’ve been told by everyone I’ve talked to about it, that offers anything like this. So hopefully I can be of some use and, know, and allow some of this money to go to projects where it’ll actually have some kind of effect and we can keep track of this, progress they make. Because, you know, when you make claims about protecting the environment or protecting species, if we lose these things, they’re gone forever.

It’s not

Jason (06:44)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (06:44)
like you’re selling a product or an investment in some kind of company or property or something. And if you make a bunch of bogus claims while you lose a bit of money and that’s it, move on. Call it a day. But there’s a moral and ethical concern when we make claims about saving environments and species. Everyone can agree on that. Everyone agrees it’s super important. It’s the cause of the day, saving the planet and everything on it.

Everyone can agree that’s a good thing. There’s a lot of money to be had and there’s a lot of hands grabbing at the money making all kinds of claims.

and promises which they really, in many cases, there’s no way they could possibly keep these promises or even begin to enact what they say they’re gonna do. So at least I’m trying to bring some field verification to it to say, look, I’ve been out there, this is what I saw, this is what I found, now you can choose to send money their way or not. So essentially that’s Driftr.

Jason (07:40)
So thank you. there’s so many different directions we can go with this conversation. Just just

Stefano Tricanico (07:44)
Yes.

Jason (07:45)
based on that. And I know you know that. The first thing that comes to my mind is, you know, this I didn’t know if this would turn into a political conversation, and I’m not suggesting that it has, but I also realize that you’ve placed yourself into a situation where there’s a lot of politics

Stefano Tricanico (08:04)
yeah.

Jason (08:04)
and diverse interests.

Stefano Tricanico (08:06)
Yes.

Jason (08:07)
and I don’t

You’ve thought about this a lot more than I have, so you might be in a position to s speak in a more politically correct way. But I’ll just tell you what’s coming to my mind is

Stefano Tricanico (08:18)
Hmm.

Jason (08:18)
kinda sounds dangerous, Stephano, because if

Stefano Tricanico (08:22)
Ha

Jason (08:23)
you’ve got these you’ve got these organizations out there that are I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and I don’t know enough about it. So

Stefano Tricanico (08:29)
Mm.

Jason (08:30)
please nobody, you know, clip what I’m saying and use that as anything because I don’t know. I’ll tell you I’ll be the first to tell

Stefano Tricanico (08:35)
Yeah.

Jason (08:35)
you. I don’t know how it works.

But I can imagine a situation where there’s organizations out there that have been receiving funding for whatever they’re doing, and they may feel that what they’re doing is completely above board, but maybe it’s hard to verify those claims. So then, you know, somebody hires someone like you and you’re gonna come there and verify these claims, and you’re out in the middle of the Arctic with it’s easy for people to disappear in the Arctic.

Stefano Tricanico (09:03)
Yes.

Jason (09:03)
so you’re you’re out there trying to verify their claims and I d I don’t know, does it feel like you’ve kind of put yourself in a dangerous spot or should we not even talk about this? And if people don’t hear this part of the conversation because it’s later on, you’re like, Jason, we should take that out because I I need

Stefano Tricanico (09:18)
You

Jason (09:19)
to and I don’t want to give anybody any ideas. But is that something you’ve experienced, thought about? I d I don’t know, I’d just love to discuss that a little bit.

Stefano Tricanico (09:27)
Yeah, well certainly. I think there’s this misconception about conservation because I would say 99 % of conservation out there is all based around raising awareness and education.

which is all fairly safe, it can be done from an office. You print materials, you put out infographics, you go and you lecture people about how to live in harmony with nature. And it’s all fine, but very difficult to measure, and whether it has any progress at all. But if you speak to any frontline conservationist, putting your life on the line is pretty much day to day. It’s normal. Whether you do it at sea, whether you’re an anti-poaching unit in a national park in South Africa,

or anywhere else in the world, these guys regularly lose their lives. Frontline conservationists regularly are taken out by, you know, you always have the same kind of setup. In the front, the poachers are invariably the locals that have access to the wildlife, the ones that are suffering, the ones that can’t feed themselves and are just trying to feed their family, and then they get desperate and they do desperate things, and they poach the local wildlife. But then after that, you have, generally what you have is cartels.

that move this stuff around the world that then bribe local officials and make it their stuff containers full of these animal products or animals themselves and then ship them off all around the world. having worked at sea, I did a lot of work with Sea Shepherd Conservation Society and you you’re in direct conflict with fishermen and fishing vessels or whaling vessels out in the open ocean where there is

Jason (11:02)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (11:03)
no jury.

Nobody can come and help us. Nobody has jurisdiction even if they wanted to come and help us. It’s just a risk that you take and real conservation, the one that has actual impact is done on the front line. It’s

Jason (11:14)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (11:15)
messy, it’s dangerous, you get your hands dirty, you come into face-to-face conflict with some very very desperate dangerous people and that’s just the reality of it. You you just take an anti-poaching unit in South Africa in a national park. These guys

camp out in the wilderness every night chasing down poachers and whoever sees it, whoever first takes the first shot and that’s pretty much how these things go. They’re hunting each other out there and they’re doing it all for the sake of

Jason (11:40)
Yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (11:41)
protecting the wildlife so real frontline conservation is a dangerous business and I’m not concerned about some conservation organization coming after me physically. And if I was to challenge their claims directly and name them and say look

Don’t buy this this is not all they do is put a team of lawyers on you and sue you out of existence It’s the biggest one, which is why I don’t I won’t do it You know, I was part of a documentary that kind of did that see spirit see on Netflix we got a lot of backlash from the organizations that we kind of let mentioned in the end and sort of exposed for a lot of green washing and blue washing and they’ll just send their lawyers out for defamation and all sorts of things and

That’s not a fight I want to get into so I won’t ever deal with the organizations themselves all I’m proposing to do is work for the donors and Go out and say look this project claims to be doing this all I’m going and I essentially almost as a tourist but a but a an informed one I’m gonna go out there with a drone and with cameras and I’ll map the area and I’ll do a wildlife count and Just present them with what I find is just I witness what’s on the ground and they can decide

You I’m not promoting or trying to dissuade them from doing anything. All I’m going to do is present them with a report and say, there you go. You decide whether you feel this is worth sending money to. If you want to be part of it, that’s fine. Otherwise,

Jason (13:04)
Got it.

Stefano Tricanico (13:04)
it will get into a legal quagmire. And politically, there’s also, you you can go and you can…

petition or lobby the politicians to change regulations and rules and there’s Generally, that’s what they do anyway and you need big legal teams and you need big complicated systems to deal with that with very little effect in the end anyway because You know, it’ll take you years just to get a single line changed In a document or something, you know back and forth and this stuff just doesn’t work. We don’t have that kind of time You know

Jason (13:34)
Yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (13:34)
in a matter of years, you’ll lose hundreds if not thousands of individuals. Let’s take the polar bear

for instance this is a can of worms if there ever was one because you have the organization’s it’s a poster child for selling anything from coca-cola to climate change to cars to cigarettes to anything washing powder they’ll use the polar bear to sell anything

And as far as the rest of the world is concerned, if you ask them, me what you know about the polar bear, they’ll say, it’s dying and vanishing and the ice and it’s starving and they’re drowning and, you know, all of this. But essentially what’s happening with the polar bear is we are hunting about a thousand of them every single year, you know, and the vast majority of those are in Canada. And this is quietly being, I wouldn’t say ignored, but allowed.

by the very conservation organizations that claim to be protecting the polar bear. So you and I, on the one hand, the donors are getting the story, help the polar bear, drive electric cars, give us money and we’ll protect the environment and the habitat and we’ll educate. We in a city living, working in a big air conditioned building will go and tell the local Greenlanders.

Jason (14:44)
Never s never seen a polar

bear, never you know, yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (14:46)
Yeah, we’ll go

and tell them we’ll go and educate the Inuit on how to live harmoniously with polar bears, you know, as a means of trying to save the polar bear. This is not the problem, you know, and if we want to save the ice under their feet, fine, maybe it will have results in 100 years and good luck with that. I wish you all the best trillions of dollars later of carbon credits and fighting things on a national level, on an international level and with no guarantee of results. But I can guarantee you if we pull the tags

this year alone, the hunting tags on all the polar bears, we will have a thousand more polar bears next year than we would have had, because the vast majority of bears are taken by hunters. Whatever the reasoning is, whether it’s trophy, which is a very small percentage, whether it’s in self-defense, which is a very small percentage, but the vast majority, about 80 % of them, are taken in subsistence hunts.

But when you look at the export numbers for the polar bear products that are being shipped around the world, and Denmark and Norway, funnily enough, were some of the most progressive countries on Earth, and themselves advocating for the protection of polar bear, Denmark is the largest per capita importer of polar bear products on Earth. And you wouldn’t think it, and Norway’s right behind them. People would never think it, and you think,

It’s banned, the Danish kind of allow the Greenlanders, they give them a quota to hunt bears. The Norwegians have banned polar bear hunting in Svalbard and in their territories, but they openly import Canadian polar bear products and allow a channel. it’s so lax they don’t even check the tags, they don’t even require tags.

to verify whether the bears were taken legally. So the problem is you have this avenue, this channel that’s open for export, which the Canadian government has created to help subsidize the northern community’s income by allowing them to sell these bear products. But once they leave Canada, you have no idea how many illegal bears or how many poached bears are making it into their channel because on the other side, they’re not requiring any of the paperwork.

requiring tags to be attached to every skin to make sure that it’s come from, you know, in Canada they have to, you have to get a tag and that tag is registered with the, with the pelt or whatever it is that you’re selling. But the moment it leaves,

It’s a free for all and poaching, as we all know, poaching numbers can sometimes easily rival legal hunts, sometimes even more. if we’re losing

Jason (17:16)
Yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (17:16)
a thousand bears a year, up to a thousand bears a year in legal hunts, we’re going to be losing at least half of that on top of that in poached bears, which will have to be sold onto the market using the same channel because very

Jason (17:29)
Right.

Stefano Tricanico (17:29)
difficult to sell a polar bear skin under the counter. know, it’s pretty…

pretty expensive item.

Jason (17:35)
Obvious what it is. Yeah. Well, because

I suspect boy, so many, so many questions. Let’s start with this. because what I heard is, you know, we’re getting sold the message of we’ve got a polar bear problem, we’re losing all these polar bears, and we need to change greenhouse emissions and do all these things so that we

Stefano Tricanico (17:54)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (17:54)
can have more polar bears, but at the same time people are hunting polar bears legally.

Stefano Tricanico (17:59)
Yes.

Yes.

Jason (18:00)
In my mind, the story I hear is we don’t have enough polar bears. And I just stated what I just stated, but I guess the question

Stefano Tricanico (18:05)
Yes.

Jason (18:06)
to you is, do you think we have enough polar bears? Is this a polar bear problem? Or is this just totally just something that’s like with the current hunting levels, figure

Stefano Tricanico (18:15)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (18:16)
in obviously some poaching and all that

Stefano Tricanico (18:18)
Yes.

Jason (18:18)
stuff? Do we have a polar bear shortage, in your opinion? I guess is the question I want to start with.

Stefano Tricanico (18:24)
The only ones that think we don’t are the ones that are allowing the hunting, is the Canadian government, obviously. Everyone else

Jason (18:28)
Okay. Well, you know

Stefano Tricanico (18:34)
seems to think, wants to actually up their level to protect them more. Everyone else has banned polar bear hunting. Everyone agrees right around the world that there’s a problem with bears.

But then the Canadians are literally the only people that say, obviously we don’t have a problem because they have up to 60 % of the polar bear population is in Canada.

Jason (18:56)
Well, yeah,

so let me let me play devil’s advocate here a little bit,

Stefano Tricanico (19:01)
Yes,

Jason (19:01)
I guess.

Stefano Tricanico (19:02)
sure.

Jason (19:04)
The whole world says we have a polar bear problem. The country

Stefano Tricanico (19:06)
Yeah.

Jason (19:07)
that has most of the polar bears says we don’t have a polar bear problem.

Stefano Tricanico (19:10)
Yes.

Jason (19:10)
That actually seems like a reasonable thing where the Canadians, like, you know what, we’ve got most of the polar bears in the world. Trust

Stefano Tricanico (19:17)
Yep.

Jason (19:17)
us, there’s not a problem. And people that are living in countries that don’t have polar bears are saying, Hey, wait a minute, we got a polar bear problem. I would be just if I was really trusting of governments, I would say.

Well the Canadians should know better than anybody else if there’s a polar bear problem. What do you think?

Stefano Tricanico (19:33)
Yes, well

the issue is how many polar bears is enough for the world and who gets to decide this? You see the Canadians, we’re sitting anywhere between 20 to 30,000 polar bears on earth. Estimated

Jason (19:47)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (19:47)
numbers averaged out amongst all the organizations that count them. Is that enough? Is that too much? Is it too few?

You know, who gets to decide how many of a species is enough to consider? And if there were enough, how come everybody else doesn’t agree? How come everywhere you look, the polar bear is being pushed as endangered, as dying? You look at all the materials, you go to the major conservation organizations, to their Arctic or polar bear page, or marketing materials is pretty much what they are, and everyone is pushing the same narrative

that the polar bears are in trouble.

I always look at it from the bear’s perspective. I try not to take anybody’s, you know, who’s allowed to hunt and who’s not allowed to hunt because one person flying in in a helicopter with spending $100,000 to hunt a bear, that’s not okay and that’s frowned upon and we’ll make a big fuss about it. But another person rolling up in a snowmobile, talks a different language, has a different culture, it’s perfectly okay to hunt a thousand a year.

Jason (20:48)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (20:49)
Either the thing is endangered or it’s not endangered. And if it is endangered, it’s endangered for everybody, for its own sake, or it isn’t. So I look at it the polar bear’s perspective. It doesn’t matter who shoots the bear. A dead bear is a dead bear. The bear doesn’t want to die. It doesn’t want any of its offspring to

Jason (21:05)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (21:06)
die. And generally with a hunting, because the products are sold, it’s not just about feeding yourself.

They are selling the pelts. So what’s happening is the biggest, healthiest bears are being taken out of the population. The ones who should rightfully be breeding and keeping the genetic pool strong, they’re being taken out of circulation up to a thousand a year. So…

You’re being left with a whole bunch of mediocre breeding bears and they’ll eventually get smaller and weaker and more susceptible to all sorts of things because the strongest, healthiest individuals are the ones everyone’s after because those pelts can sell for up to $100,000. And

Jason (21:47)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (21:47)
the hunters only get 10 % of that on the ground.

Jason (21:50)
Right.

Stefano Tricanico (21:51)
They might get five, $6,000 bucks on the ground and it’ll sell, some of the most expensive are selling for 90, $100,000 around

Jason (21:59)
Wow.

Stefano Tricanico (21:59)
the world.

And you you got the Canadian government in Nunavut is paying the hunters 50 % upfront of the estimated value of what the polar bear before they even shoot it. they’re not only allowing it, they’re incentivizing it and giving them 50 % of the money upfront to go and hunt them. So you’ve got to wonder.

You know, and we don’t know who these people are who are sitting deciding this stuff. It’s all behind closed doors. It’s presumably a handful of people. They use the estimated numbers. decide arbitrarily that 2 % of the population is perfectly fine to remove from the face of the earth, even though everybody else on earth is bleeding hard about the polar bears. So they decide what the final numbers are in estimated. They decide how many will die that year. And who are these

They’re not accountable to anybody. Nobody can even name them. They just publish the data in some government report. It’s all published. It’s not hidden or anything. If you look for it, you’ll find it.

There’s no discussion being had here. And the rest of the world is trying to save this thing and the ice under its feet and the habitat of the seals so the polar bears don’t starve. I mean, we talk about this all the time. We lecture about this constantly on the expedition cruise ships. All the people

Jason (23:18)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (23:20)
we have that come up there are all in agreement come up there knowing that the polar bear, for them, the only fact they don’t know is that we purposefully and deliberately shoot 1,000 of them.

a year. So my

Jason (23:31)
Okay.

Stefano Tricanico (23:33)
retort is, well, if you want to save the polar bear, just stop shooting them. There’s nothing we can do in one year in any kind of scheme or program or whatever that’s going to put a thousand bears on the planet by next year. But if we just don’t pull the trigger,

We’ve got a thousand more bears next year and maybe we should all have discussion, not just a handful of anonymous people deciding the fate of an entire species behind closed doors. And really it’s just for subsidizing the living to allow traditional hunting to carry on and for them to subsidize

Jason (24:09)
Well, but it’s

Stefano Tricanico (24:10)
their living in whatever means possible, whether they consume it.

And it’s very doubtful whether it’s very healthy for you because any numbers I’ve ever seen even 50 years ago, they were finding PCBs and heavy metals, any apex type of predator or large predator builds up an enormous amount of toxins in its body by eating all these smaller creatures. So I can’t imagine it’s very healthy to eat.

We have a bunch of modern materials. The Canadian government has just stepped away from, they don’t want to get involved. They’ve got a very bad history with how they treated the indigenous populations. So they’re allowing them to take care of themselves, and that’s fair enough. But ultimately, we always have this issue of, there’s endangered species involved here, there’s protected species involved. And if that’s the case, if there’s plenty of them, then why do we tell the rest of the world,

that it’s endangered and extract billions of dollars from the rest of the world in donations

Jason (25:07)
Yeah, yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (25:09)
under the pretext that we’re now going to be saving the polar bear. Well, if it’s not a problem, someone needs to either stop marketing the fact that they’re endangered or they need to start marketing the fact or stop marketing the fact that they’re not endangered. Someone’s not telling the truth. Clearly. Yes.

Jason (25:23)
There’s some there’s some mixed signals there for sure. You know, which

i I I know that you can’t read their mind. You mentioned that they’re making these decisions behind closed doors, so maybe this question is is not so easy to answer. But what I when a government says we’re gonna give you money to go shoot an animal, you know, that’s typically for a few d a few different reasons. One is that they’re just dangerous.

You know, so

Stefano Tricanico (25:50)
Yes.

Jason (25:50)
like in the western United States, there was a bounty for things like wolves and and predator animals because they just felt like, the it’ll be safer for the settlers if we don’t have so many wolves.

Stefano Tricanico (26:02)
Yes.

Jason (26:04)
which I can imagine maybe that scenario with polar bears. I don’t know, but I I don’t think they’re the safest animals. And I’m not knocking and I’m saying I’m not saying we should shoot because of that, but I could see a scenario.

or there’s, you know what, there’s too many of them. So they’re getting sick and they’re not, you know, so we need to cull the herd to make it

Stefano Tricanico (26:24)
Yes.

Jason (26:24)
healthier. which is, you know, there’s hunting organizations in the US that do the same with you know, would

Stefano Tricanico (26:30)
Yes.

Jason (26:31)
say make the same convers argument about deer or elk or things like that that are not dangerous. So I guess where I’m going with this. So what I hear you say is the government is paying them to go shoot

polar bear. But then I also are you saying that it’s about indigenous relations and letting them continue their traditional way of life.

Stefano Tricanico (26:54)
course yet.

Jason (26:55)
Which but those are two different things. because when you

Stefano Tricanico (26:58)
Yes.

Jason (26:58)
start paying somebody to go shoot something, they go shoot it just to shoot it. And it has nothing to do with their traditional way of life other than maybe I don’t know what am I I’m not I don’t know where I’m

Stefano Tricanico (27:07)
Well, I mean…

Jason (27:08)
going with this, but is did anything pop into your head with me rambling that you want to mention?

Stefano Tricanico (27:11)
Well, none of those

scenarios are true for the polar bear. I mean, they’re not paying them to go and shoot them. They’re fronting them 50 % of the value of the pelt once it’s shot, and they’ll have to get their tag anyway. So they get the tag and they get money up front. I don’t know why, why they couldn’t just get paid out for the bear once it’s hunted.

But from my understanding is that they give it 50 % upfront. So this is a bit of an incentive and a bit of a problem, but you don’t have…

the scenario where, know, when they were taking out wolves and they’re doing it now. They’re petitioning it for again around in Wyoming and around there. They repopulate and then the wolves do very, very well. And then the ranchers are complaining that they’re taking out their calves and they’re losing cattle and blah, blah, blah. So.

Then they hunt the wolves again, but this is not a problem the bears aren’t Taking food out of the mouths of the locals by eating too many seals or any of this sort of thing That’s the excuse for the sealers in Canada when they kill hundreds of thousands of seals on the East Coast every year because you have this group of island called the Magdalen Magdalen Islands and the Magdalen Island is all of French origin and they can only fish during You know the summertime and in the winter they got nothing to do so they the

government allows them to go out and seal and club seals that’s still going on everyone thinks that ended in the 90s whatever when the when they were the campaign that’s still going on they leave the carcasses thousands of them get left on the ice they just take the skins and they sell the skins and their excuses well the seals are eating all the fish so we’re suffering our fishing season is suffering so it’s now the government’s responsibility to help us subsidize that by allowing us to kill the sea

to make up the money. But that’s not a problem with the polar bears. There’s no competition with that the polar bears, there’s so many polar bears that the Inuit are not eating or getting seals because they’re eating. And the conflict between bear and Inuit, they’ve been living together for thousands of years. There is no conflict. It’s not some crazy, violent, wild animal that’s unpredictable. Bears are very, very predictable. In fact, it’s my job as

What I do in the Arctic is actually polar bear safety. I’m firearms master and I lead a small team of people that clear the area and protect the operation while it’s on the ground or in the water against polar bears. And polar bears are very, very intelligent. They don’t want to get hurt. They generally avoid human contact at all costs unless it’s a sick, desperate bear. Any sick, desperate, starving animal will do desperate things and behave out of the ordinary.

But generally this is not an issue. So there’s no bears that have to be shot because they’re dangerous to humans. There’s no bears that have to be shot because they are competing for the same food source. They are just being shot because that’s a traditional thing that they do. As to whether they took a thousand of them a year back in the day, I don’t know. That’s disputable. You you’re talking six to 700 a year in Canada, about 200 a year in Greenland.

In Russia it’s technically illegal but the poaching numbers are anything from 2 to 300. In Norway it’s illegal but they import the ones from Canada and they kill their fair share.

on Svalbard every so often, you know, there is conflict with tourism operations or camping operations or the scientists accidentally over anesthetize the bear and it dies or gets killed. You know, they’ll anesthetize a female bear that has cubs and then while she’s still recovering, perhaps a male bear will come in and find her and then kill the cubs. So there’s a bit of a mess. But these are small numbers compared to this regular hunting every single

year for subsistence hunting but if it’s subsistence and how come these pelts are being shipped all around the world for enormous profits and you can go to a

Jason (31:17)
Yeah. Yeah. Makes it makes you wonder, huh?

Stefano Tricanico (31:21)
warehouse in Bergen

in Norway and buy a hundred, if you got the money you can buy a hundred polar bear pelts every single one of them from Canada and have them shipped by FedEx to your front door. know,

Jason (31:32)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (31:33)
and it’s like hang on a minute, know, subsistence is one thing but surely there’s better things to eat. You know, you would rather eat a narwhal or a whale or something.

for food than a polar bear. It’s quite a thing to risk yourself to go out and shoot a polar bear for food or to use its hide. The hides were traditionally used by Inuit hunters to make pants because they’re very, very warm. They shed water. If you look at the traditional use of the products, but this is not really a thing anymore. Yes, they have them, but how many do you have?

Jason (32:06)
We have Gore Tex

now.

Stefano Tricanico (32:08)
and down and all of this sort of thing.

Jason (32:10)
Yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (32:13)
Nobody in Canada wants to touch it because it’s traditional hunting. It’s a Pandora’s box. If you want to go in there and open it up and then you’re dealing with federal governments, provincial governments, First Nations themselves. Then you’re arguing about the sacred cow of traditional anything. It’s very, very difficult for anybody to…

to try to dissuade them not to. My solution was there is only one solution to it. Instead of going the long route and trying to convince everyone it’s a bad idea and preaching and telling them what’s good for themselves, say hang on a minute.

We spend how many hundreds of millions of dollars trying to save the bear and pulling money in. If we say each Inuit hunter, we estimate an average of let’s say they make 10 grand or 20 grand, maybe even 30 per bear, and they take a thousand bears a year. You know, that’s not a lot of money. You know, that’s a few million bucks.

And we say, okay, we’ll come in, we’ll have a, instead of spending hundreds of millions or throwing money away on trying to change the thermostat of the planet to save the bears in the most indirect

Jason (33:21)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (33:22)
possible route you can with no guaranteed results, buy back the tags. Say how much is it, if you’re shooting the bears to subsidize your living and you’re selling the products to take the money then to pay for your living and to pay for supplies which are very expensive in the Arctic, how about we just buy back the tags? Yeah.

Jason (33:36)
Yeah. We just pay not pay not to shoot the bears. Yeah. Isn’t isn’t that kind

Stefano Tricanico (33:41)
Thank

Jason (33:41)
of similar to

buying a fishing boat? I mean, there’s there’s countries I believe in Northern Europe, maybe where there’s areas that were overfished where they just went in and

You maybe know more than I do, but I feel like they’d go in and buy the the fisherman’s boat or h and just basically I don’t know. Did I make this up in my head?

Stefano Tricanico (34:02)
Yes, yes, where they buy the boats

and I think it happened in some countries in Asia do it. Well, they pretty

Jason (34:08)
Okay.

Stefano Tricanico (34:08)
much subsidize the fishermen’s salary by turning them into tour boats and using them for tourists.

Jason (34:15)
Okay. Yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (34:16)
Or, you know, even in Norway, you get people that in part of the season, they do well watching tours and the other part of the season, they work on whaling boats.

Jason (34:25)
interesting.

Stefano Tricanico (34:26)
So one way or another, and this is quite common in Norway, and I know I’ve worked with guys on board that we take people all the way around the world to show them these whales and what Embanini off-season is whaling on a whaling ship.

And Norway

Jason (34:40)
Hm.

Stefano Tricanico (34:42)
also claims the same thing, traditional, this is our tradition. Iceland is doing the same. is just, there’s a conflict happening right now. Sea Shepherd Conservation Organization has just had their ship impounded in Iceland for protesting the whaling operation there. Iceland is one individual that insists on whaling, they still whale. And it’s always the same thing. Faroe Islands, it’s the same. Denmark, again, hypocritically, runs big conservation organization.

their head offices are in Copenhagen and they allow the mass slaughter of cetaceans in the harbour in the Faroes every single year. Everyone, the grint, it’s horrific. All

Jason (35:13)
Okay, yeah, I’ve seen that. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I’ve seen seen video.

Stefano Tricanico (35:20)
falling under the same umbrella of tradition. Tradition, tradition, tradition. And it seems to be untouchable just because we label it tradition. If anybody else did it, they would be locked up in a second for animal cruelty and nobody would accept it.

For some reason you say tradition and all of a sudden it’s hands off and fair enough if there’s a case to be made and hardly a case to be made for the Faroe Islands where it’s a modern society. Most of these kids go to university in Copenhagen, they have all modern amenities, they have access to everything. It’s not like there’s some remote northern communities that are cut off half of the year and

Jason (35:55)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (35:55)
have to just survive. That’s a whole different story and it’s not advocating against any of this or…

Utilizing

it in any way, but there’s a lot of hypocrisy involved There’s a lot of conflict of interest just because of the amount of money. So my solution

Jason (36:10)
Yeah, yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (36:11)
is buy the tags back So you need if it’s the money you need and if it’s the food you need well will Subsidize will bring in the food will fly it in at great expense But it’s still going to be cheaper than trying to replace a species

You trying to replace a thousand polar bears, it’s going to… How do we do that? You know, one or two cubs a year for how long and then how long is it going to take to actually replace these bears naturally when we can just not kill a thousand of them and just replace the reason why they’re being hunted in the first place. It’s plenty of money in conservation, billions and billions of dollars. So we’ll just throw a few million at it and maybe flying food supplies, flying whatever it is that they need. And if it’s cash,

give over the cash and buy

Jason (36:55)
Yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (36:55)
the tags, destroy the tags and that’s a thousand bears a year remain on the planet. There is nothing we can do education wise or raising awareness or carbon credits or driving electric cars in California is going to do anything for the polar bear in the Arctic other than that just stop shooting them.

Jason (37:14)
Let me ask you

this. And I don’t know if it’s it’s not maybe directly correlated not correlated, but I don’t know if there’s a good example. But I’m curious because there’s organizations. Let’s look at, and I don’t know a lot about them, but there’s like the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, which is an organization that is all about hunting. And I think that they would say, Look, we we want more elk habitat, we want there to be protection so we can have elk.

So partially so our members and our hunters can go hunt them. So

Stefano Tricanico (37:46)
Yes.

Jason (37:47)
I can imagine somebody thinking, you know what? What if we spread the word that we don’t have enough polar bears so we can get a bunch of money to have more polar bears so we can continue to let the Inuits go and maintain their traditions and possibilities someone might’ve be thinking that.

Stefano Tricanico (38:02)
not entirely out of the question.

Not entirely out of the question. Although it would be very hard because you involve the whole world. One organization in the states preaching to the choir is one thing. But when you have

Jason (38:17)
By getting

by l getting little seven year olds and eight year olds in New York to collect their bottle caps to protect the polar bears so that so that they can so they have more to shoot. okay.

Stefano Tricanico (38:22)
Yeah, and drink out of paper straws because, No,

I doubt the Canadian government has gone to that kind of length. know, and I understand, look, I’m a hunter, I was born and raised a hunter. I have no issue with hunting.

Jason (38:34)
Well, I was gonna ask that. I’m happy you brought that up. I was trying to figure out how to

ask you if you think this is a overall hunting thing. Cause someone listened to this is okay, Stefano Joseph doesn’t like hunting. And

Stefano Tricanico (38:45)
No, no.

Jason (38:46)
so this is so I they’ll check out. Somebody listens that likes to hunt maybe he’s already checked out. Maybe we should have brought this up earlier. But do I’m not gonna ask you if you still hunt, but do you think that hunting and is a

Stefano Tricanico (38:58)
I do still have to.

Jason (38:59)
okay, all right, cool. So tell us a little bit about that so people don’t just think you’re

Stefano Tricanico (39:03)
Yeah.

Jason (39:04)
completely against hunting. Which would be okay if you were. That’s okay.

Stefano Tricanico (39:05)
Well,

all the hunting I’ve ever done was, to a certain degree, subsistence. I never shot anything for a trophy. I’m not a sport hunter.

Jason (39:13)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (39:15)
So

I grew up, from the moment I could ride a bike, could shoot a gun and we would go out hunting for game birds mostly and once in a while an antelope and everything would end up in the freezer and everything would end up on the table. My whole childhood

Jason (39:27)
Mm-hmm. Same here.

Stefano Tricanico (39:29)
was like that. And for the same reason I would hunt now, it’s not for sport or because it’s a challenge or something because for a good hunter, it’s not really a challenge. You’re out there to achieve something. So I have no issue against hunting.

the stand.

You know elephants for instance. There’s also a tricky one Elephants are being poached in record numbers now on one hand in certain countries But in other countries in national parks where they kind of bounded or in restricted areas They still have to cull them so they they’re being poached in huge numbers Which is a problem, but they still have to cull them in other areas because they’re incredibly destructive They’ll knock down trees and they’ll turn everything into a desert if it was up left up to them They’ll just push entire trees over so they’re very destructive

for the habitat for other creatures. So it’s never a simple thing, but I think the polar bear example is a lot more clear cut. And I don’t believe 20 or 30,000 is some kind of number that we, there’s plenty of them, because someone has decided that 20,000 of something is enough for the entire planet. And it’s all in the hands of…

They’ve decided for the rest of the world because everyone else is doing their best to protect a little the few numbers that they have but polar bears aren’t separated they’ll migrate right around you know they are just divided into what they call subgroups or whatever but those sub if you look at how they’re divided there’s a lot of straight lines and blocks and squares all over this place that’s that’s those are arbitrary lines that have been put in there and they’re pretty much management zones and each one of those subgroups or subpopulations has a quota attached

to it. So it’s a bunch of bureaucrats that are born of straight lines across everywhere, just like you do with countries, and then they’ve attached a quota to that so the local populations can take according to how many are estimated in that area they’re allowed to take so much. So everyone’s doing their part to try and minimize and ban bear hunting and make a big fuss about protecting them, but then of course the Canadians, it’s the only country in the world that still allows polar bear hunting, and in Quebec, in the province of Quebec, you don’t even

even have to report. There’s no quota for Quebec. So we have no idea how many bears are being shot in northern Quebec. They don’t even have to report. It’s self-reported entirely. So there’s a lot to be done as far as that. the story needs to be cleared up. And there was just a movie released called The Trade Secret recently, last year, or the beginning of this year, which goes into this, which is something that should have come out years ago, because many books have

have

been written by people on the subject. Very unpopular subject, you I’ve lectured about it on board these vessels and it’s always very well received and people are shocked to hear this information. And I’ve been told…

straight up by my bosses to not talk about that because people aren’t here to have a good time and they want to be told about how wonderful the

Jason (42:18)
Yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (42:19)
bear is and how much we’re doing to protect it. But ultimately there’s a truth that isn’t being told and needs to be brought out there because if we want to save the bear…

Like I said, not shooting them would be a great start and it would be the most effective, quickest way to put as many bears as possible or to keep them here. Bears that are already here, we don’t have to go to extreme lengths to breed them or to cordon them off and hopefully they recover. They’re already here, you know.

Jason (42:43)
Don’t kill them. Yeah, just don’t kill them. You know, it’s

I’m happy, I think it’s a really, really, really good example to kind of help understand why you started Driftr and why you’re doing that. Because even if even if you and I and everybody was in agreement that we’ve got plenty of polar bears, what you gave is a really good example of just the

Maybe hypocrisy and the one on one hand we’re doing this and then on the other hand we’re doing this crazy stuff. It’s kinda like, you know, I grew up in Wyoming. I grew up hunting deer and elk. Same as you though. If you shot you shoot something because you’re gonna eat it. Like to the

Stefano Tricanico (43:18)
Yeah.

Jason (43:18)
point that when my kid was eight or nine years old, he he killed a bug and I said, Jackson, if you ever kill anything again like that, you’re gonna have to eat it. I’m like, it was like, you know, and and then and

Stefano Tricanico (43:28)
That’s a good lesson.

Jason (43:30)
then a few weeks later I I saw him do it again.

big June bug. We were living in Vermont and I said, okay, go get five more. And then we went inside and toasted them up on the cast iron skillet. I had to do a quick go Google search to make sure I wasn’t gonna kill him. But but I

Stefano Tricanico (43:43)
Make sure you don’t poison your kid.

Jason (43:45)
was like, okay, from now on you kill something, you ought to have a really damn good reason or you’re gonna eat it, you know. So anyway.

Stefano Tricanico (43:51)
Yeah.

Jason (43:51)
but my point is I grew up in Wyoming, you know, you talk about the hunting areas and yeah, you you you buy a tag to go get an elk and they’ve got so many in certain areas.

And it would have just been so weird if like I’m out there elk hunting and then I’m seeing ads on TV talking about the, you know, endangered elk and we need to you know invest

Stefano Tricanico (44:13)
Yeah.

Jason (44:14)
money to protect the elk because, you know, we’re losing them at record numbers and global

Stefano Tricanico (44:19)
Yeah.

Jason (44:20)
warming. It would have just been so obvious. I was like, wait a minute. This Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (44:21)
Yeah, yeah, what? This is clearly bogus. Yeah, that’s exactly what’s going on.

For someone who works up there, it’s really problematic.

Jason (44:31)
Yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (44:31)
I mean, I

can’t believe the nonsense that is spread by polar bears, even by big organizations, even the big broadcasters, BBC and all. It’s the same story. Watch anything they’ve ever produced on polar bears and it’s the same story. You’ll never hear a word, not a word spoken about the hunting situation because they know you’re treading on very, very shaky ground and you don’t possibly want to be labeled, you know,

lecturing the ones who have been living with them for but ultimately then you shouldn’t be preaching that they’re endangered or whatever because you can’t to both of those things can’t be true at the same time it can’t be endangered

Jason (45:08)
If I was

Stefano Tricanico (45:09)
and then we’re taking a thousand of them a year it’s okay for one set of people to hunt almost as many as they want because they decide amongst themselves

you know, anonymous tiny group of people.

Jason (45:20)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (45:21)
So they could easily up the quotas because according to them it’s not a problem. they could go to 3 % or 4 % and who’s gonna touch it? Nobody’s gonna touch it because if it’s disputable, it’s disputable now. I would say a thousand bears a year is a lot of bears. If your population is only 22.

20 to 30 thousand and they don’t always breed successfully. They might have one, two, sometimes even three cubs now have been reported but they’re not all going to survive. So

Jason (45:50)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (45:50)
the survival rate and the replacement rate, you know, it’s all math, it’s all calculus.

Are they replaceable? Are they replacing themselves under these so-called impossible conditions that we created by the shrinking sea ice and human conflict and pollution? They’re always the same stories, but not one of them. I work with experts, with polar bear experts, and I’ve spoken to them and I’ve asked them,

Jason (46:14)
Pardon me.

Stefano Tricanico (46:16)
how many bears have died from climate change? We don’t know that number. Okay, but…

If you find a dead bear, how do you prove it died from climate change? Well, we can’t do that either. You know, it’s not like it’s got a belly full of plastic and you can say, well, because of plastic pollution, you got to rip. Yeah,

Jason (46:29)
Had a straw stuck in its nose or something, yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (46:32)
you got you got rubbish dump bears that hang out at the.

bins and the garbage dumps all over the world, whether it’s a black bear, a grizzly or a polar bear, and they’re fat and healthy and they don’t consume plastic. So neither will a wild bear. And they’re not going to drown. They’re not going to just flounder around in open water looking for ice to rest on. This is a marine mammal. It’s classed as a marine mammal. They can swim hundreds of kilometers. They are excellent swimmers in the water. They are very intelligent. They are omnivorous. They’ll eat anything from flowers to green grass to seaweed, carcasses, fish,

anything they can get, even each other, they’ll eat absolutely anything. So the bear is omnivorous, so really…

it’s going to be one of the last things to starve up there because it can eat almost anything. It’s the specialists that need one specific type of food. And if it disappears, now they’re stuck because they can’t switch diet. And yes, they’re not going to be in the best condition. And yes, it’s not their favorite food. I mean, the idea that they’re just going to start starving and dropping off like flies is just not the case. They might not be in the best condition, but these are the ultimate survivors. They’re certainly not going to survive a gunshot wound.

Jason (47:43)
Yeah. That’s a tough one for them.

Stefano Tricanico (47:43)
That’s where I have a problem

with it, know, unless we make them bulletproof here. All of this money we’re spending and all of this marketing, I mean…

you just look at you pull up polar bear in advertising and it’s everywhere they love using it and even for climate change or for conservation it’s like the panda that was used by WWF back in the day they chose the panda because it’s draws attention everyone will feel some kind of affinity to it they call it charismatic megafauna

Jason (48:16)
But you know, and you also

but think of this. There’s not a l well, I don’t know if there’s a lot of I’ve heard there’s a lot not a lot of pandas, but maybe they’re shooting so maybe I don’t know. But but my I guess where I was going with this is a panda is something that most people have like are not ever gonna see other than maybe in a zoo. And it’s kind of

Stefano Tricanico (48:33)
Yeah, in a zoo, yeah.

Jason (48:34)
a faraway type of most people as you know, live in the

Stefano Tricanico (48:38)
Hmm.

Jason (48:38)
US or Europe or whatever probably don’t know much about pandas. It’s kinda

it’s feels like the same thing for me for polar bears. It’s like most people, you know, most people are never gonna see a polar bear.

Stefano Tricanico (48:45)
it’s the same for… Sure.

Jason (48:47)
So you can make it look as and I’m not saying they’re not well, they’re I don’t think they’re sweet. I’ve never thought they’re sweet other than maybe on the Coke can they seem pretty sweet and and friendly.

Stefano Tricanico (48:56)
Yeah.

Jason (48:57)
but it it’s kinda like we can take something that people really don’t know much about and we can just kind of make it into whatever we I that maybe that’s on a different different trajectory.

Stefano Tricanico (49:06)
Yeah. Well, they’re certainly

making it out to be completely helpless and that needs our help. This is the ultimate survivor. know, polar

Jason (49:11)
yeah yeah yeah that’s the key right there. Yep. That’s the s mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (49:16)
bears don’t even hibernate. The females will den in the winter with the cubs, but the males roam around.

on the frozen ocean in pitch darkness for months out of the year. They don’t sleep, they

Jason (49:27)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (49:27)
just roam constantly in the dark by themselves. These things are incredibly tough, incredibly intelligent, but they make them out to be helpless. And fair enough, there’s things they can’t control, there’s a lot that we can’t control, that’s just life for everything. There’s so much out of your control anyway. as far as,

Jason (49:44)
But let me let me ask you the go ahead.

Stefano Tricanico (49:46)
no, no, go ahead.

Jason (49:48)
I just I don’t want to skip skip something if you have it so we can come back to it, but I’m imagining a conservation organization. Maybe one that’s been around for a while and has done different projects in different parts of the world. And they decide, there’s a lot of interest in the polar bears right now. So they

Stefano Tricanico (50:07)
Yes.

Jason (50:08)
decide we’re going to do a polar bear, I don’t know what they would call it, a prom

Stefano Tricanico (50:13)
Campaign

Jason (50:14)
campaign, which

Sounds like is that an advertising campaign or a conservation campaign? I don’t know. But it’s like we need to we need to do yeah,

Stefano Tricanico (50:20)
Both.

Jason (50:22)
yeah, exactly. We there’s everybody’s interested in polar bears right now, and we’ve got this big donor database, so we need to we better do something with polar bears because we’re getting a lot of pressure to do something with

Stefano Tricanico (50:33)
Yes.

Jason (50:33)
polar bears. And then they go hire the PR company, the marketing agency in New York and say, Hey, we’re gonna do all this stuff for polar bears and how do we come up with a strategy that

Stefano Tricanico (50:43)
Yeah.

Jason (50:44)
Number

one shows that there’s a need for work to be done so so donors will pay, will donate, whatever. And that that something can be done about it. And I could see that them looking at like you and I are having this conversation. Well, okay, why don’t you take that money and and then either lobby the government of Canada or work with them to figure out how to

reimburse, you know, the Inuits that are losing out on their opportunities to hunt, buy back the permits and all this stuff. But as soon as we start doing that, as soon as we start talking about hunting, the

Stefano Tricanico (51:20)
Mm.

Jason (51:21)
donors are gonna be like, hey, wait a minute. I don’t want to give money to protect the polar bears if the Canadian government is shooting the polar bears. And and it

Stefano Tricanico (51:29)
Yes.

Jason (51:30)
so so those organizations are like, yeah, let’s not talk about the hunting thing. Is that basically my summarizer everything you’ve just told me?

Stefano Tricanico (51:39)
Yeah, I well, I

Jason (51:39)
Or not, or am I missing something?

Stefano Tricanico (51:40)
think the hunting thing opens up that can of worm of traditional practices, which nobody wants to go near. Nobody wants to touch

Jason (51:48)
yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (51:48)
it because it’s a can of worms and it’s very, very easy to demonize people that are supposedly looking like they’re lecturing the experts on how to live with polar bears and what they should and shouldn’t be doing.

Jason (52:01)
Yeah, okay.

Stefano Tricanico (52:02)
As far as marketing,

Jason (52:02)
That’s fair enough.

Stefano Tricanico (52:03)
it’s very marketable. The polar bear is very marketable and pretty much what they’re marketing.

Jason (52:08)
‘Cause all you need

cause all you need is a video of a polar bear a long ways away from the ice swimming and it looks like, my god, he’s gonna drown, he’s gonna die and look

Stefano Tricanico (52:14)
Yes, looking like it’s drowning. Yes, precisely.

Jason (52:20)
what we’re doing to the polar bears and meantime he’s polar bear’s just doing what polar bear does.

Stefano Tricanico (52:25)
Yeah,

they tug it. marketing and advertising sector is not known for its ethical or moral background. They’re not there to decide whether something is. They just there to sell whatever it is. And they are known to use psychological backdoors and tug at the heartstrings of people to get what they want, to sell them almost anything. And polar bears easy to do that. And it’s easy to.

take images and to take footage out of context.

the numbers of bears that they are claiming are dying because of climate related issues or starvation or whatever are minute compared to how many are dying every single year provably. Every bear that gets shot has a tag, that tag has been issued by the government, there’s a whole paper trail. It’s indisputable. So let’s deal with the stuff we can control. Let’s like stop issuing hunting license

This is for polar bears and then we can control that and we’ll worry about this the minute amount of bears that are dying and the stuff we can’t control that’s on a global level so they show they they’re burdening everybody with this Global crisis and all these animals that are dying and nobody can do anything about it other than hand over a bunch of money to big organizations and say well somebody must know what they’re doing all these experts and Scientists and here’s the money you guys deal with it. You know what you’re talking about, but it’s like hang on a minute, you know

over here what nobody’s talking about right here in our faces and you can go to the you you land at the airport in Longyearbyen or you go in Tromso and you walk around and there’s stuffed polar bears in the street outside of shops to draw tourists in. Everyone’s taking selfies with the thing and they don’t for a second think hang on a minute how’d that bear get there?

Jason (54:06)
Curious, it’s on a slightly or a little bit back to the conservation organizations, because I’m imagining

Stefano Tricanico (54:11)
is.

Jason (54:12)
a large conversation conservation organization, or any large organization, probably has you’ve got one team that’s about figuring out how to bring money into the organization, and then you’ve got another team that is supposed to figure out what to do with that money. I’m just guessing, I’m making this up in my head as I go.

Stefano Tricanico (54:27)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jason (54:30)
And I can imagine.

The team bringing in money is like, wow, we got a gold mine here. And I’m not trying to knock, I’m sure there’s wonderful organizations out there and there’s people that maybe will never listen to another episode of my podcast because I’m saying it this way, but this is what’s going through my head. And I’m I’d rather just be honest. So

Stefano Tricanico (54:46)
Yes.

Jason (54:47)
you’ve got, wow, this is a gold mine, we can bring in a lot of money. And then the team that’s supposed to take action with it is like, Are you effing kidding me? What am I supposed to do here?

Stefano Tricanico (54:57)
Yeah.

Jason (54:57)
Because

There’s ways I can spend the money. I can spend money on clim climate research. I can spend money on education. I can do all this stuff. But if they’re the if if that person making those decisions is like me based on what you’ve shared with me, I would be very frustrated. Because I’d be like you. I’d be

Stefano Tricanico (55:15)
Yeah.

Jason (55:16)
like, hey, wait a minute. Yeah, okay. If we really want to help the polar bears, why don’t we do this? But we can’t do that because if we do that, then we gotta report where the money is going and and now

People are like, Well, you’re paying the you know, the hunters. I don’t know. It it just seems like it could be kinda complicated.

Stefano Tricanico (55:31)
Yeah, it is very, I mean, I would

say 30 to 40 % of the money has already taken care of paying their salaries and paying the rent for these big buildings they occupy in major cities around the world. So that takes care of a big chunk of the money. Then they have to advertise and market, which is millions of dollars worth.

So they’re spending millions of dollars just on advertising alone to solicit more donations. So it’s a kind of a revolving, it’s a flywheel

Jason (55:59)
Revolving.

Stefano Tricanico (56:00)
effect there. But ultimately there is that major disconnect between the marketing material, what is being claimed, the effect that they’re having and I’m not disputing.

the problems that are that they are claiming are false or exaggerated or whatever it’s the effect that they’re having it’s the results that they are claiming that we are actually protecting this I say okay but show me the numbers if you say what you’re doing is protecting the polar bear and you’re keeping more polar there’s more polar bears on the planet this

in 2026 and then we’re in 2025 because of what we did. You need to show that because conservation is the only industry where they don’t have to show the numbers. They’re not accountable to anybody. Everybody assumes and takes it on face value because it’s an altruistic pursuit, because they are doing it for the benefit of everyone that…

it must be being done. they’re not going to tell us a bunch of fibs just to make money and them drawing $100,000

Jason (56:57)
Just to get more money to come in.

Stefano Tricanico (56:59)
salaries to push paper around on a desk. These offices are full of these types of conservationists and education and making infographics and educating the kids and educating the Inuit on how to live with polar bears, which it’s a bit of a joke really. And one of the major organizations, if you look at

what they are doing they claiming to be

reducing human conflict in this one specific village called Itokotormet on the east coast of Greenland. And I know Itokotormet, go there regularly. I’ve worked with the polar bear hunters. There’s designated hunters for each village. They’re not all allowed to go hunting. And I know there isn’t so much as a printed sign even showing that this organization’s even been on the ground. And what are they going to tell them? What are they going to teach them? How to live side by side with polar bears when they’re the actual ones living there?

and everyone else is in Copenhagen and riding

Jason (57:51)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (57:53)
in an air conditioned office.

Well, what are they doing then essentially taking money into save the polar bear and all they’re doing is what preaching to the choir about how to live with polar bears is it’s There’s so much hypocrisy and it’s like, okay Then you can’t take them on directly and say your claims are bogus If anyone wants to start donating money to any of these causes and they say well these guys say there’s a project here and they’re protecting this specific animal or the specific environment and we’re really interested in say Hang on before you hand over the money. I’ll go and have a look and I’ll come

and I’ll show you what’s on the ground. If you want, we can go together because a lot of these places are out in the middle of nowhere, logistically very difficult to operate in at all. Just to get there is a problem, never mind to run a project. So if you want, if you’re that interested…

Come with me and we’ll go and have a look together, but generally most of these people don’t have the time to do this sort of thing. They just want their money to work for them. know, everyone gets a tax break for donating charitably, and you look at their advertising campaigns as well. April is coming up, now’s the time to make your charitable donation and we’ll send you your tax rebate or your tax slip so you can write it off. Fine, but I’m sure they don’t want to. Yeah.

Jason (59:01)
And you can feel good about it because we’re saving the polar.

Stefano Tricanico (59:04)
But I’m sure they don’t want all their initial capital to go down in some black hole somewhere without having any effect. They’re giving this money in good faith that somebody’s going to save something. Once we lose these things, they’re gone forever. It’s not just a bunch of lost money. We’re talking about species and environments and rainforest. There’s lots of projects claiming to protect rainforest or claiming to protect trees. Well, how do we know this? Every package you pick up at the supermarket says 1 % of the profits go to this.

every

package you buy we promise to plant a tree well how do you know that? That’s just printed on a package that you buy and you’re assuming that it’s the truth but we have no idea.

So I’m not on some world quest to go and disprove everything, but certainly, at least when there’s millions of money, a lot of organizations get a little bit of money from a lot of people, but they have big donors in the background that send on a recurring basis millions of dollars every year, because that’s their project. That’s their feel-good project. That’s their legacy project. But a lot of that money is being certainly misplaced and misused and doesn’t have the effect they wanted to have.

I’m trying to get in before the money gets released and say look at least

Even if the project is failing, let’s set up some milestones. Let’s try and get these things on track. We say, okay, we’ll release a certain amount of money. Once you get the infrastructure built, once you start having measurable results, then we’ll release some more. And you would manage it the same as you would manage any other enterprise or business or project. You would apply the same level of due diligence before you throw money at something to make sure it exists and

Jason (1:00:41)
Great. Yep. Yep.

Stefano Tricanico (1:00:43)
that exists as they say it is. You know, there’s that famous

story of I think it was the Brazilian government that bought an airport in I think it was Nigeria or something for 250 million dollars and it didn’t even exist so you’ve just lost

Jason (1:00:57)
Think I yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (1:00:58)
250 million dollars when you could have put your assistant on a flight

to that airport just to make sure it actually exists and it’s not some bombed out mess or there’s nothing there, it just an open field. And you would have saved yourself $250 million. So the amount of money it would take is minute to do a little bit of diligence on the ground and then save yourself a lot of time, a lot of money and being pretty much robbed.

Jason (1:01:24)
Yeah,

it yeah, yeah. This is definitely an oversimplification, but sometimes I like to boil things down to where it’s really simple for my for my to get my head around it. So I’m imagining a a charitable organization that says, okay, one of the big things we’re doing is we run this education center. I’m just making this up as I go. That

Stefano Tricanico (1:01:43)
Yeah.

Jason (1:01:43)
we have this education center in this village where people can come in and learn how to do other things other than skin polar bears, I guess. I don’t know.

Wow, that sounds great. And and they they get the community together, take some photos, all this stuff for the websites, and people are donating money and then they hire someone like you to fly up there and you go to this community center and the the doors are locked up and you know there’s

obviously hasn’t been used for a while. So technically, yes, they’ve got a community center up there. But I I think what I hear you saying is maybe you just want to go if if you think that that’s a good way to do it. And I’m not saying community center’s the way. I’m just saying,

Stefano Tricanico (1:02:22)
Yeah.

Jason (1:02:22)
you know, that as an example. have someone like

Stefano Tricanico (1:02:24)
Yeah.

Jason (1:02:25)
you I mean, I know that’s oversimplification. I know you want to do more than just fly somewhere and make sure there’s community

Stefano Tricanico (1:02:29)
Yeah.

Jason (1:02:30)
center open, but

Stefano Tricanico (1:02:31)
But it pretty much boils around that. You you need roads, you need fences, you need ranges that are equipped with, you need regular patrols. You can make all these claims on paper, but ultimately to protect wildlife, you actually have to protect it. You can’t just…

designate a random area on a map and call it protected, like marine protected areas. It’s just a colored patch on a map. When you go out there in the open ocean, it’s just open ocean. There’s nobody there. In fact, if there is anybody there, it’s more than likely fishing boats because you’ve just told them where all this wildlife is and why it’s worth protecting. But unless you go and put a boat there that’s going to chase them off, it’s like creating a national park without fences and without ranges or without wardens.

You have must if you want to protect something you need to physically protect it If it’s worth

Jason (1:03:18)
Yeah, yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (1:03:19)
protecting you need someone with a gun to prevent people from coming in and stealing it and poaching it It’s as simple as that. There is no other Yes, and if you

Jason (1:03:27)
That’s a much that’s a much better example than me and the community center. You’re like, we need fences, wardens, and guns, and I’m

like, community center.

Stefano Tricanico (1:03:35)
It’s as simple as that. Imagine

you have your coastline. Look, if you think how many countries don’t have a coast guard and foreign fleets of fishing boats come in there and clean up. I I worked off the coast of Liberia for six months. They have a coast guard. They have vessels, but they don’t have fuel for the vessels. So they’re sitting on the beach watching trawlers and fishing boats from all over the world clean up right inside of their sovereign territory and they can do nothing about it.

So right in front of your nose in your own country, they’ve come from somewhere else to do it right there. it’s not, so unless you have a coast guard.

Nobody’s going to do it for you. You’re to have to go out there, chase them off to be on the 12 mile mark or to be on the 200 mile mark of your exclusive economic zone. And you’re going to have to patrol to make sure because the moment you turn your back, they come right back in. I’ve seen this myself. As long as you’re there, as long as you’re patrolling, walking that line up and down.

They’ll stay out. You turn around, you take a few days off, they’ll sneak right back in or they’ll send one vessel in to poke around to see if there’s any response. And if there’s no response, they all flood back in. This is that and

Jason (1:04:44)
Which

Stefano Tricanico (1:04:44)
that’s the open ocean. You know, on land it’s easy because you can fly drones, you can have satellite coverage, you can have 24 hour patrols. Out on the open ocean, it’s a virtual impossibility because there’s no jurisdiction beyond a certain.

The high seas is the high seas. It’s completely wild. People will scarcely believe what happens out there on a grand scale. They won’t even believe it. If they think it’s bad on land, wait until you find out how bad it is out there. And it’s not just the wildlife, you know.

Jason (1:05:15)
That’s

gonna be a really interesting conversation. You and I should have to come back and do kind of a special episode or something and discuss that because I would be fascinated.

Stefano Tricanico (1:05:23)
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Jason (1:05:24)
You know, one thing, you are still an expedition director and ex expedition leader on some of these expedition ships. Is that correct? Okay.

Stefano Tricanico (1:05:32)
Yes, yes.

Jason (1:05:33)
So

I guess the question I want to ask is I heard you say earlier somebody on your team was like, Yeah, don’t talk about this movie. I can’t remember the name of the of the Netflix series or the movie that you mentioned. But in general, what I’ve picked up is, yeah, don’t talk about the polar bear hunting.

Stefano Tricanico (1:05:53)
Yeah.

Jason (1:05:53)
when you’re giving your presentation, talk about all the work that’s being done to save the polar bears and all the conservation organizations that are working to save

Stefano Tricanico (1:05:59)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (1:06:00)
the polar bears. But we don’t

But people are here to have a good time. So don’t say we’re doing all this work to save the polar bears, but then the indigenous people are shooting a thousand a year.

Stefano Tricanico (1:06:12)
Yeah.

Jason (1:06:12)
Am I tracking so far? I’m gonna keep going, but I just wanna make sure I’m tracking so far.

Stefano Tricanico (1:06:15)
Yes, and that’s more

than once and more than one company have had this problem. Yes, that’s true.

Jason (1:06:18)
Okay. And I’m trying to say

this in a way because I recognize that you still plan to

Stefano Tricanico (1:06:23)
Yes, yes.

Jason (1:06:23)
do some work for some of these companies. I’ve seen a little bit on social media, specifically LinkedIn. I’ve somehow I’m connected with a lot of people that do expedition leading and stuff like that. And I’ve I’ve kind of picked up on this tone about, you know, things aren’t exactly the way that they’re presented sometimes. And there’s some some people that are getting frustrated with that.

so we’re listening to you have this conversation, and I suspect that there’s somebody else listening to this that’s been on an expedition chip and hers has heard about all the great work that everybody’s doing to save the polar bears, and now they’re

Stefano Tricanico (1:06:59)
Yes.

Jason (1:07:00)
listening to this, and they might come to the conclusion, well, no, that’s not what our expedition leader said or our scientist said when we were on board of the ship. So Stefano’s just kind of off on his own, going a different different

Stefano Tricanico (1:07:12)
Yeah.

Jason (1:07:12)
direction. It’s a f

I guess what I really want to know is do you feel like you’re one of those frontline guys that’ll come out and say, Hey, here’s the reality of it and other expedition leaders that are listening to this right now are is it gonna resonate with them or is what you’re saying controversial within within your your circle?

Stefano Tricanico (1:07:30)
No, I will come out and say it and they all know it but because it’s that untouchable subject of traditional hunting nobody will go near it. They know very well. Anybody who’s actually informed and goes up there knows this and this is easily verifiable. The Canadian government prints these numbers and it publishes this stuff on their own websites. It’s not controversial in any form or fashion. It would take a five minute search on

pick whether you use Google or Claude or chat GPT and they’ll pull up the papers and every single year you can go onto the federal government’s website. is their own, know, this is not hidden, this is not some kind of theory of some sort. This is well documented, everybody knows there’s traditional hunting, everybody knows they still shoot polar bears, they just don’t know to what extent because this stuff isn’t, you know, people aren’t going to research it because they’re so, they’re being pumped the same kind of narrative over and over and

over again so that’s where their attention is so when you tell them about this they’re kind of shocked they say hang on a minute but I’ve been told everyone’s being told this story about in one direction and now you’re telling me we kill a thousand a year this is horrific what do we do about it this is the problem

because inevitably the question comes at the end of the talk is, well, what do we do about it? This sounds horrific, well, what do we do about it? And my answer is, well, unless you want to petition the federal government and you want to take on traditional practices and, and, and good luck spending the rest of your life and being demonized for doing it, or you buy back the tags.

and we put a thousand bears on the plant just for one year. Let’s do it for one year. Buy all the tags for one year in Canada. And then we know for a fact that those bears are going to be walking around next year. And that’s how we save the prolobe. That’s the easiest,

Jason (1:09:19)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (1:09:19)
most direct, measurable route of saving anything is don’t shoot it. Don’t poach it. Don’t kill it. Don’t harvest it. Whatever you want to call it. Don’t.

Jason (1:09:29)
It’s so obvious, it’s so simple, isn’t

it?

Stefano Tricanico (1:09:32)
Yeah,

mean, what are you going to do? Otherwise, it’s all a scheme and an idea of, yes, for future generations, if we do this, then we’ll ensure their future.

If you want to ensure their future, just don’t kill them directly. We can’t control stuff that’s going to indirectly affect them. We all have to deal with it. Every creature on the planet is going to have to adapt and survive as always have been. Whether you get hit by a meteorite or whether you’re in the middle of an ice age, whatever it is, everything on earth is still here despite of all that. But we cannot escape rampant hunting and poaching. We will wipe everything out in one generation. It’s like commercial fiction.

commercial fishing has got to be the most destructive human endeavor ever because you’ll trawl with big heavy steel weights from the bottom to the top you’ll trawl that entire water column and you’ll wipe an entire ecosystem in one pass you keep doing that you’re gonna you’re gonna collapse the ocean ecosystems in no time at all barely even discussed the feet the the fishing nets the pollution from fishing is like yeah but that’s that’s a side issue that’s just

like a spin-off. The fact of the matter is there’s millions of

Jason (1:10:40)
visible it’s the visible one, right?

Stefano Tricanico (1:10:42)
fishing vessels 24-7, something like five million registered fishing vessels let alone the unregistered ones and they are fishing in Antarctica you know they were just down there the Norwegians and the Chinese are fishing krill in Antarctica right in front of the faces of the tourist ships 500 meters off away from them accidentally catching whales in the nets and nobody says anything

You know, because people assume that this doesn’t happen because Antarctica is a sacred place that is protected by all the governments and the people that signed the treaty. It’s just not true. Nobody has jurisdiction there. If everybody is involved, nobody’s involved because no one country can go in there and say, stop doing this. They issue their own permits, they issue their own quotas, and they go all the way from the north to the south to fish for commercial in Antarctica.

you can’t protect Antarctica when nations have decided that this is some kind of sacred place, Galapagos Island, of world heritage sites, small little islands, completely ravaged by fishing fleets, even the locals now are long line fishing in the Galapagos. If you can’t protect the Galapagos, what chance do you have some marine protected area up in the high seas or some massive continental sized thing or a creature nobody even sees or couldn’t find even if they tried?

effort we put in to find polar bears to show people.

you know, is enormous. That’s like an entire focus of Arctic trips is to find a bear at all costs. That’s like the main thing. So, but, and people are thrilled to see them and they’re like, wow, they’re still here, thank goodness. I’m alive to see these bears before they vanish into thin air. Well, they don’t vanish into thin air. They vanish in containers packaged up after being killed. And you can see the bullet hole in the hide. If you turn it upside down, you’ll see the patch.

just

like you would on any hide of an animal, the taxidermist will patch it and there’ll be a number attached to it and that number goes right back to an individual that can be named, you know, so.

This is the problem and nobody’s talking about it and the main thing with conservation in general is it’s all a dirty, messy, horrible business on the front line. It’s always bloody and people’s lives are involved and people risk their lives even to save turtles. How many activists have died on turtle saving campaigns walking at beach and they get taken out in their tents? I’ve had friends that…

headed anti-poaching units in South Africa. He was working for two years straight. He decided to take a week off one time. during his week off, his team was found by the poachers in the middle of the night and they cut all their throats while they were sleeping in their tents. And if he had been there, he would have lost his life. And he says, you either get killed or you face the reality of every single day. If you find a poacher, you have a shoot to kill mandate. Anti-poaching units have a shoot to

There’s no negotiating. You’re not even allowed to get out of your car in a national park as a tourist. You have to stay in your vehicle. Not because the animals are dangerous, it’s because you have anti-poaching units. You start wandering around in the bush.

and some anti-poaching unit sees you, they’re not going to ask questions. They’re not going to come and try and wrestle you to the ground. They’re going to shoot you because that’s what they’re supposed to do. So it’s a messy, ugly business and educating and raising awareness. These are all just, it’s all talk, it’s all marketing, it’s all printed materials and websites and brochures. And it’s all great for getting the money in the first place. The thing is, well, now what do we do with the money? And is it having effect?

Because unless you’re paying frontline conservationists to go out there and stop the killing, which is essentially what it is, they’re not vanishing, they’re not starving, they’re not just fizzling away into the ether. We’re shooting them and we need to stop and it’s as simple as that. It’s not complicated. There’s no point in over-complicating a simple thing.

Jason (1:14:39)
Stefano, I’m trying

to figure I’m trying to figure out how do we go from this very important and powerful conversation to so tell me about your childhood. But

Stefano Tricanico (1:14:49)
and I’m

Jason (1:14:51)
honestly, and this doesn’t always happen in this in on

Stefano Tricanico (1:14:53)
Yeah.

Jason (1:14:53)
these conversations. You know, we generally start with kind of what do you do? Tell us what you do. And we’ve

Stefano Tricanico (1:14:58)
Mm.

Jason (1:14:58)
spent an hour and almost and a half discussing that because you’re you’re passionate.

It’s fascinating

Stefano Tricanico (1:15:02)
Yeah.

Jason (1:15:03)
to me. It’s an important topic. And then usually when we’re done with that, we say, okay, so now tell me how you got there. And I want to I do I think that’s important as well. So if you don’t mind, we’re gonna try and emotionally shift gears to hopefully. I don’t want to say I’m more positive, but I don’t know. Yeah, let’s rainbows and leprechauns.

Stefano Tricanico (1:15:15)
Okay. We’ll wrap it up nicely. a rainbow, in a rainbow. Yeah.

Jason (1:15:26)
hopefully, I mean, I don’t I don’t know your child, I don’t know your story.

But what I would like to do is I’d like to spend a few minutes just kind of giving, you know, it’s that it’s maybe a shortened version of that story, like when you sit down with a group of guests on one of the expedition vessels and they’re like, Stefano, how the how the F did you get into this? You know, where are you where

Stefano Tricanico (1:15:46)
Yeah.

Jason (1:15:46)
are you from? Da da da da. So I don’t know how far back we need to go. Usually I say, How far back should we go? And someone will say something, Well, you know, COVID happened and I decided I wanted to do something different.

Stefano Tricanico (1:15:57)
Yeah.

Jason (1:15:57)
We’re going to go a little further than that. Let’s start.

Stefano Tricanico (1:15:59)
Sure, sure.

Jason (1:16:00)
Let’s just start with where did you grow up?

Stefano Tricanico (1:16:02)
Well, I was born and raised in South Africa and this all started,

Jason (1:16:05)
Okay.

Stefano Tricanico (1:16:05)
you I realized there was a problem even back then because we were hunters and because we lived, my dad was into the bush and you know there’s a poaching problem. was always the black rhino back in the day was the poster child for the endangered species. Everyone wanted to save the black rhino and they never managed to do it. After half a century, that thing is pretty much everything but extinct.

Even behind 10 foot fences with 24 hour arm patrols, they’ll still get them. And I realized there was a problem back then and it’s always the same story. Poaching is always the same story like I mentioned before. It’s the locals that have direct proximity that do the poaching. They know where they are, they know the movements of the animals. Then they sell them off.

to cartels which then use their connections to ship all this stuff off in a container somewhere. so you become an inadvertent conservationist as a hunter anyway. It’s part of the discussion. People that don’t know hunting think that we’re just a bunch of meatheads that go like shooting stuff because we’re cruel and dumb. But that’s not how it is. The conservation discussion is always part of hunting.

In fact, some of the best and most effective stewards of animals and areas are the hunters. They’re the spokespeople usually for these types of things.

Even though most people don’t understand, if you want to protect it, then how are you going out there shooting these things? Well, you’re not going out shooting endangered species. You’re shooting the herd animals, and you understand that there’s a chain there, and the environment is all part of it. And without protecting the environment, there’s no herd animals, and you have direct contact with it. so if anything, we are the best.

people to talk about it and the traditional, the people that live on the land, doesn’t matter where they’re from.

hunt all the time anyway and they are the stewards of wherever they are otherwise you have no food source so you have to be. You can’t just indiscriminately hunt until there’s nothing left. I don’t think anybody has ever done that. Everybody’s hunters have always understood you can’t just kill and kill and kill until there’s nothing left because where are going to go then? So they all understand a certain level of,

Jason (1:18:16)
Yeah. Stefano Stefano,

Stefano Tricanico (1:18:19)
yes.

Jason (1:18:20)
see the challenge? I was just gonna ask you like what subjects were you interested in high school? How many siblings do you have? What you know, what did you did you place words? But but I I say that jokingly because obviously

Stefano Tricanico (1:18:30)
Yeah.

Jason (1:18:32)
you’re very, very passionate about it. It is an important part and I wanna touch on

personal side a little bit ’cause you mentioned you were hunting with your dad. Did do you have siblings and what other things did you like to do other than be out in the field hunting and paying attention to what’s going on in the world? Which are all really, really good things by the way.

Stefano Tricanico (1:18:49)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, well, most of my childhood was involved around hunting. I mean,

Jason (1:18:56)
Okay.

Stefano Tricanico (1:18:56)
I come from a generation where we still had a shooting club at school, a marksmanship, we used to call

it Bisley. So after school, instead of going and kicking a ball around, I would go to the shooting range and shoot. And then we would hunt sometimes twice a week, at least on the weekends, go for bird hunting.

My favorite subject at school was geography, suppose, because it taught me more about

the world, all the rest I didn’t, you know, the usual reluctance to study science and math and finding out how is this going to help me. But I realized very, very quickly when I was in my early 20s that I wanted to see the world as a…

let’s call it, careers wasn’t going to work for me. By the time I left, I already had half a dozen different directions I went in. I went from pharmaceutical assistant to non-destructive testing technician to working in the largest steel factory in the southern hemisphere at one point for a year and a half. That was my first real job. Then I was an armed response officer. Then I got injured doing that. Then I worked in a bank as a teller and…

I realized none of this stuff is gonna see me through for the rest of my life. I’m gonna be bored to death here in a year or two doing whatever it is that I’m doing. And everyone, all the older folks keep telling me, I wish I was your age. I wish I was 20 again. I would have done, well, if everyone keeps wishing they were my age, but at the same time

Jason (1:20:16)
Mm yeah, yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (1:20:17)
they’re telling me, you’ve gotta settle down and do this and do that. So, well, there’s two things done, Matt. So I decided that seeing the earth in general,

was what I was going to do. it was, you know, I became a mountaineer and I went to the Himalayas a lot and I went to, I wanted to see the wildernesses of the world before we trashed them all. So for a good 15 years, I traveled to the wildest, furthest places I could find on independent trips just to see them for myself. I

Jason (1:20:46)
Wow.

Stefano Tricanico (1:20:46)
wanted answers and I wanted to see beautiful places.

Jason (1:20:50)
You mentioned that it was kind of early your early twenties when you decided you

Stefano Tricanico (1:20:53)
is.

Jason (1:20:54)
wanted to go see the world. I wanna step back a little further because it I let’s just you know, imagine that I had a time machine. I know you were hunting and going to the range and shooting a lot. if I had met you you had a time machine, went back to when you were fifteen, sixteen years old and I said, Hey

Stefano Tricanico (1:21:08)
Yes.

Jason (1:21:08)
Stefano, what what do you want to do when you grow up, man? do you have any recollection of what that would have been? What you would have responded with?

‘Cause I’m pretty sure it wasn’t working in the steel plant.

Stefano Tricanico (1:21:17)
No,

no. mean, things were very different in South Africa back in those days. Our school system was very archaic. was like comparable to the English school system in the 40s, 50s and 60s.

corporeal punishment was pretty much normal. Any teacher could whack you with anything they could find for any reason. They didn’t even have to give you one. So we didn’t get a lot of guidance. We didn’t get the, live your dream, dream big and you can be anything you wanna be. You will shut up, you will sit down, will do as you’re told and when you get out you’re gonna work like everybody else. So

Jason (1:21:52)
In the factory. Yep. Yep.

Stefano Tricanico (1:21:53)
you didn’t get too much of a choice.

I try to just survive that as a teenager and you know I was an immigrant child first generation, parents are Italians, born in

Jason (1:22:04)
Mm.

Stefano Tricanico (1:22:04)
South Africa, very very complicated situation. You have all these separate ex-pat communities amongst the white immigrants. Then you have a big separation between the immigrant kids and the Afrikaans kids, the multi-generational white South Africans which considered themselves South African. So even amongst ourselves we were

separated and then you’ve got you’re living in a country with 13 official languages and another 25 unofficial ones you have all of sub-saharan Africa a very complicated

country to find your way in and I just felt the need to escape. I mean I couldn’t help it. I’m like this none of this is working. I’m being forced to do these things. I’m not having a choice. You just choose you take whatever you can get for work and you do it which is why I had to bounce around as much as possible. So it’s not like I felt like

Jason (1:22:54)
Did but that was in

the but that was in the early twenties or did you like at sixteen did you know you wanted to like get the F out of here?

Stefano Tricanico (1:23:02)
Yeah, yeah, I mean for sure something was wrong I suppose when it was 15 we came home one Christmas and I unlocked the door it was late at night we came home from family and the doorway door was kicked in and I realized immediately we’d been robbed so

called the cops, whatever, we went in and realized that my dad was old school and he kept everything in a safe, pretty much money under the mattress, the guy, and we were completely cleaned out. And then the insurance company, after paying premiums for 18 years, never paid out, so we were left with zero, and there’s no social help. There’s none of that in Africa. You start from scratch, you become homeless, and you gotta feed yourself and sort it out, or it’s not gonna happen. And I started seriously asking questions at…

because of that incident, none of this stuff.

it works as they say it should work. And I’d grown up Roman Catholic, so I went to church and Sunday school and communion and confirmation and all of that. And that wasn’t working like they said it would because I saw a lot of good people suffering just as badly even though they were on their knees in church on Sunday, they still got it like everybody else did. There was no advantage to it. Certainly wasn’t making sense when I’m comparing.

what’s advertised and what’s happening in reality. The two didn’t match. It seems to be the story of my… It’s the story of my life comparing

Jason (1:24:25)
Ki kinda sounds like some of the conversation we were having earlier. I’m just trying to you know yeah, yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (1:24:31)
the marketing material with reality. Yes. So that’s

Jason (1:24:34)
What I’m what I’m hearing being told and what’s actually happening or yeah. that’s a whole nother conversation for

Stefano Tricanico (1:24:43)
pretty much was my quest. I knew something was up.

and I knew I had to figure it out and I was going to figure it out by putting my head down at the grindstone and working away my whole career. My childhood felt more like a survival than, you know, I’m grateful for the childhood now because it made me who I am, made me tough, it made me inquisitive, it made me…

independent. I’m glad I didn’t grow up in soft circumstances and like, know, with helicopter parents that did everything for you and I grew up, we played, you know, they kick you out the house, come back before dark. That generation, you know, you were part of it too. You grow up very, very different to now. Yeah, but I mean, I wouldn’t say I was a dreamer. I was a very different kid. I was very reserved, bit of an introvert, very quiet. And then

you know, after school I kind of rebelled against everything as you do and then, you know, I was going to do it my way and no one was ever going to tell me what to do, when to do it or how to do it and here we are.

Jason (1:25:45)
Very cool. You you mentioned that you were traveling I think you were used the word independently. So you said, I went to the Himalayas a couple times

Stefano Tricanico (1:25:51)
Yes.

Jason (1:25:51)
and did this and traveling independently. So

Stefano Tricanico (1:25:54)
Yes.

Jason (1:25:55)
I am curious what that means to you. Is that you were working along the way or I mean or did you just have the

Stefano Tricanico (1:26:03)
No, generally trips

Jason (1:26:04)
resources to just go visit the world not work? I don’t know. Tell me.

Stefano Tricanico (1:26:06)
Well, no,

I used to work as a dishwasher and I was paying in a kitchen in London and I used to pay for four to six months traveling. When I say independently, mean, a lot of Himalayan trips, you go out, you pay an agent to make all the arrangements for you and they send you with a guide. they buy, when I went, I would.

arrange everything myself, the route, I would manage everything myself even though couldn’t speak the language whether it was Pakistan, Tibet, India, Nepal, you know, and I ended up doing a full circumnavigation of the Himalayas over eight months, was covering 10,000 kilometers.

Nobody ever helped me out that I wanted to prove to myself that I could do it and then learn how to do it So it was never a question that if anything again this weird survival mode if anything I know I can handle it I’m not last time someone helped someone’s been helping me to do this now that I’m stuck with it I don’t it’s like being a passenger in a a a

in a vehicle. You’re not paying attention to directions and if someone asks you, know, where are we? And it’s like, well, I haven’t been paying attention. I’m just looking at the view here. You’re driving, you’re the one who’s supposed to. So I wanted to be in charge of that, to teach myself and to become as competent as possible in whatever it is. Competency is a big thing for me. To become competent,

Jason (1:27:22)
Yeah, I can tell.

Stefano Tricanico (1:27:24)
also part of that survival instinct. You need to know how to do this stuff for yourself.

So I did all of that by myself. I planned it all, I managed it all, and we did some incredible trips, exploratory mostly, around. And I got a lot of satisfaction from knowing that all of them worked out. We never had an injury, nobody ever got hurt. We never really ever got lost. And it was all wonderful, some of the best years.

Jason (1:27:50)
Yeah, I I hear you saying

we because the next question I was gonna ask you was when did you figure out that you wanted to do this for a living and and not spend your time in a kitchen saving up money so you could go do this? But when did you decide that you wanted to do it for a living or and then you said we? So then I thought maybe maybe I missed a step.

Stefano Tricanico (1:28:10)
Well, no, the time I was traveling with my partner and she was very, very obliging. She just followed me everywhere. So it’s amazing. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason (1:28:18)
I guess so. Hey, hey Stefano,

where do I find one of those? That will go circumnavigate the Himmelands. Yeah, I figure I’ve I’ve noticed that. Yeah, if anybody’s listening

Stefano Tricanico (1:28:22)
Yeah, good luck. luck. They’re very, very rare creatures for sure. Endangered species. Yeah, I mean.

Jason (1:28:33)
that fits that mold, reach out to me

Stefano Tricanico (1:28:35)
Yeah.

Jason (1:28:36)
for sure. anyway. All right. So y so the two

Stefano Tricanico (1:28:38)
I mean, let’s.

Jason (1:28:40)
of you were traveling around. So when did you get to the point where like, yeah, I think I could actually make a living doing this?

Stefano Tricanico (1:28:45)
Well, I was advised against it. Every time I met guides that were doing this kind of life that it was, you meet them there on the way and they just said, don’t do it, man. Don’t do it, you’re just gonna end up,

Jason (1:28:52)
Mm-hmm. Why? What what reasons would they give you?

Stefano Tricanico (1:28:56)
you’re just gonna end up taking your passion, the classic, you’re gonna take your passion and turn it into work. And you’re gonna end up babysitting a bunch of people.

up in the mountains where it’s difficult and it’s not going to be the same kind of… You have this idea that, I’ll get paid to travel, but you give up a lot for that, you know. And then I started live… I went to live in Scotland when I stopped working in a kitchen, I moved up to the Isle of Skye on the north end to this tiny little hamlet and I started working as a handyman just out of the kitchen for the first time. And then…

we kind of started this walking company, interpretive guiding and hiking up there. And that’s when I actually started guiding, mostly doing wildlife trips and wildlife watching and all these sorts of things. And that’s where it all started. So I did that for a few years. Then I moved to Canada and I was already, I was liking the seasonal guiding. It was the seasonal side of things that really drew me to it because I could work.

six months, eight months a year and then just disappear and nobody would need me until the next season. They’re not expecting you.

Jason (1:30:01)
Yep. Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (1:30:03)
They’re quite happy for you to leave and come back.

Jason (1:30:05)
Yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (1:30:06)
And that was perfect for what I could do whatever I wanted. And in Canada, I was cave guiding.

in the summertime and I was dog sledding in the wintertime as a guide which worked out perfectly and with gaps in between so I did that for a number of years and then I went into rope access to get up as close to a proper job as I could know in an industrial setting again you just try to Yeah,

Jason (1:30:30)
Wait, you said rope access?

Stefano Tricanico (1:30:33)
you’re pretty much an industrial climber

you access very difficult to reach areas using ropes essentially. If you need to inspect something that’s way up on a tower or the side of a skyscraper or something, you’ll see the guys hanging off buildings on ropes. A lot of them clean windows or do repairs and that sort of thing. yeah, exactly, exactly. So that’s what you do.

Jason (1:30:45)
Okay. Okay. All right. Yep, I know what you’re talking about, yeah. Change light bulbs on the top of the towers type of thing. I’ve seen some of those videos online. They do a good job of making it look absolutely terrifying.

Stefano Tricanico (1:31:01)
And I just like the challenge of it.

My whole life has been about ropes and technical, more the

Jason (1:31:06)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (1:31:06)
technical side of guiding than the actual interpretive, you know, being with people. I like to solve problems technically. And then I decided to…

Jason (1:31:14)
I can’t I can’t I gotta I

don’t know if we’re gonna come back and I’m gonna get another chance to ask, but what I just heard is yeah, I like the technical part. The people

Stefano Tricanico (1:31:23)
Yeah.

Jason (1:31:24)
So if I heard that, someone else might have heard that. So if we need to correct anything, we should do it now while we’re on that topic. You’re like, yeah, no, no.

Stefano Tricanico (1:31:32)
No, I am an introvert and mean, as

if you know anything about being an introvert, any type of social

Jason (1:31:37)
I do.

Stefano Tricanico (1:31:38)
stuff is very draining as you know, there’s a certain limit to that. I’m surprised I went into. I know this is is this is very nice.

Jason (1:31:43)
Like like chat like chatting with Jason for an hour and forty minutes. Like, Okay, Jason, you said an hour

Stefano Tricanico (1:31:50)
But it’s it’s the.

it’s the theatrical to any to any type of job where your front-facing there’s a certain we call it the theatrical aspect of it

Jason (1:32:00)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (1:32:01)
You’ve got to be there, you’ve got to perform, feel like it or not. The smile has got to be there. You’ve got to be interested, even though you’re exhausted and tired and you’ve got to do it all again tomorrow. Everybody knows this. mean, whether they admit it or not, I think they all know when you close that cabin door at the end of the day, you’re like, I’m so glad I don’t have to talk or smile or pretend like I’m listening or play along. Yes.

Jason (1:32:23)
That’s why so many guides are alcoholics.

Stefano Tricanico (1:32:26)
You’ve got all these hats you’ve got to wear. You come from outside

in the wind and the cold and you’ve just been dealing with watching polar bears or whales and then you’ve got to sit at dinner and have some polite conversation and your wind-swept face and you just want to sleep. So, I mean, and as an introvert there’s a limit to that sort of thing and, you know, but that’s what I went into and we’re all going to manage our own.

ourselves and our personalities in that sort of thing. yeah, if I could choose my ideal job would be like something I’m doing with Driftr where I can just go out on my own, perhaps with a team of one or two people that I choose for limited engagements and just do some good in the world instead of, you know.

Jason (1:33:11)
You know what, I I can appreciate that. And I managed a small resort off the coast of Belize. I don’t I wouldn’t even call it a resort a lodge, but it was probably smaller than some of the expedition ships you’ve been on. And I get it. It’s just there’s that s that space. It’s really, really hard to kind of get away.

Stefano Tricanico (1:33:27)
Yes.

Jason (1:33:28)
You go to your cabin and either someone on your team or somebody, you know, or one of the guests needs you and it can

Stefano Tricanico (1:33:33)
Yeah.

Jason (1:33:34)
I I l I like people. I’m I’m an extrovert, but

Yeah, it’s I kind of sometimes I feel like an introvert. Like please just leave me alone. So I can imagine. So all right.

Stefano Tricanico (1:33:43)
Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Jason (1:33:48)
So what how did you get so let’s move forward to getting you on your first expedition boat. Or unless there’s something else we need to cover that’ll help us kind of understand that in the in in between.

Stefano Tricanico (1:34:01)
Well, eventually I lost my kind of obsession.

over mountains and mountaineering. It’s very taxing on your body being in high altitude a lot. So I decided, well, sailing always drew me. I liked the idea. So I decided to get my captain’s license for sailboats. So I went to South Africa and I did the whole Zero to Hero course. I had to cross the Atlantic from Cape Town to Rio as part of the exam. It was big thing. So I got my captain’s

Jason (1:34:29)
Wow.

Stefano Tricanico (1:34:30)
license in sailing. It took five and a half months.

a lot of learning and lot of practical work, they do it all in one shot if you’re willing to dedicate the time.

Jason (1:34:42)
Are you saying are

you saying that in order to get your captain’s license in South Africa you need to sail from South Africa to Brazil? Or is this a a special way of doing it?

Stefano Tricanico (1:34:50)
Well,

the qualification in order to get your… It’s under the Royal Yachting Association, so it’s the British system. And

Jason (1:34:59)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (1:34:59)
in order to get your Yachtmaster Ocean, which is the highest qualification, you have to skipper a vessel for 5,000 continuous miles. We were

Jason (1:35:09)
okay.

Stefano Tricanico (1:35:10)
doing celestial navigation, the works, was all part of it. So that was

Jason (1:35:13)
Wow, okay.

Stefano Tricanico (1:35:14)
part of the qualification was to do a croc.

the most obvious crossing would be across the Rio from Cape Town, which is about 5,000 miles if you add a few, you know, it’s never a straight line, so you’ll get your miles. And then that kind of got me into working with Sea Shepherd on their vessels for the Marine Conservation. that’s how ended up there because I had the qualifications as a mariner. Then I got on there and I worked as third engine. I started in the engine room as third engineer.

Eventually worked myself up to officer. I was the medic. I was the fast boat driver You know, it’s kind of one of those ships where you get to do a bit of everything because we’re all volunteers and it’s limit There’s limited skills

Jason (1:35:58)
So somebody

somebody who does not know what Sea Shepherd is, how do you summarize that just so people aren’t left thinking I have no idea what he was just talking about?

Stefano Tricanico (1:36:07)
Well, they’re the organization that chased the Japanese whalers out of Antarctica. If you’ve ever seen the series Whale Wars on Animal, I think it was Discovery or Animal Planet. It was started by Paul Watson. He started Greenpeace and then he was kind of excommunicated from Greenpeace because he was very active and very direct, but too much for them.

Jason (1:36:27)
Too intense.

Stefano Tricanico (1:36:30)
So he started Sea Shepherd.

and they started directly opposing Japanese whaling and the whaling, they sunk a few of the Icelandic whalers in port by scuttling the vessels back in the day. after 40 years of continuously arresting the Japanese in Antarctica, they finally…

chased them out of there and they stopped whaling because of them. Nobody else was able to do it, nobody else wanted to do it because again, there’s no jurisdiction down there. the kind of the philosophy is, well, if you’re gonna go, if you’re gonna take it upon yourself to go and do something illegal in the ocean, we’re gonna take it upon ourselves to come and make it difficult for you because nobody else is. So I decided that.

I didn’t want to get involved in protest groups or just raising awareness and education. That’s why I got it from Direct Action Frontline where it’s gnarly and ugly and dangerous, but that’s where you get the job done. So I did a few campaigns with them and then just in the middle of the night, one night I was online and I saw this ad for…

somewhere I saw it for guiding on an expedition ship and because I had years of guiding and I had my years of firearms behind me and I was a mariner they were looking for a polar bear guard on one of the vessels and

So I sent in my application, I did a 20 minute interview and that’s how I ended up on expedition ships and now I’ve been going for about 10 years. I made it all the way up to expedition leader, led in Antarctica, I’ve led the Northwest Passage in Canada, all the big check boxes. It’s been fantastic. But you know, I feel like now I’ve kind of got to the point where…

I’ve done what I wanted to do without now repeating the same thing over and over again, going again to Antarctica, leading this. I know what to expect, I know what’s down there. It becomes habitual at that point and that’s when I start to feel like I’m outgrowing it and I need the next step. The next step

Jason (1:38:25)
Have

Stefano Tricanico (1:38:26)
is Driftr. That’s where we are now.

Jason (1:38:27)
Have you heard the

have you heard the term ADHD? Yeah.

Stefano Tricanico (1:38:32)
Yes,

I reluctantly won’t give that, you know, I’ve heard it but…

Jason (1:38:35)
I’m pretty good at I’m pretty

good at diagnosing. As a podcast host, I’m especially you know, skilled at diagnosing ADHD or assessing. hey, here’s a th No, no, I would n I would never

Stefano Tricanico (1:38:43)
So you reckon I’m ADHD? I’m for almost certainly.

Jason (1:38:48)
say that. But here’s here’s what I’ve noticed, a little bit of a trend after almost 200 conversations. I know I am.

Stefano Tricanico (1:38:56)
Yeah.

Jason (1:38:56)
And and the people that get into this, they have such fascinating stories. And well, I got bored of this, so I went and did this, and then I did this.

Stefano Tricanico (1:39:03)
Mm.

Jason (1:39:04)
And so it’s like, which is part of why I love doing this so much, because

Stefano Tricanico (1:39:07)
Yeah.

Jason (1:39:08)
there’s no way I could line up 200 people that all have ADHD and I’m not no, they don’t all so my past

Stefano Tricanico (1:39:13)
Yeah.

Jason (1:39:13)
guests are listening, I’m not saying that. But yeah, it’s just like, wow, I feel like every everybody I have a conversation with, I feel like, yeah, you’re you’re I’m in the same boat or the same same tribe. So anyway, didn’t mean to call you out, but

Stefano Tricanico (1:39:24)
No, no, that’s fine. I’ll almost certainly got to be something

Jason (1:39:28)
But I thought maybe it was relevant.

Stefano Tricanico (1:39:29)
not normal.

Jason (1:39:30)
It’s very cool. Hey, so okay. So now imagine yourself, you’re I don’t know, sitting at a coffee shop somewhere, some young guy walks up, he he sees something about your uniform, whatever. He’s like, Hey man, what do you do? And you’re like, yeah, I’m expedition leader on this ship, and I’ve been doing this for 10 years, and I was a guide here, guide there, and all this stuff. And they’re like, man, I want to be a guide. I’m like,

I’m I’m working my ass off learning how to tie knots and ropes or whatever, so I can be a

Stefano Tricanico (1:39:57)
Mmm.

Jason (1:39:57)
rope guide. I don’t know. Remember you mentioned earlier that when you ran into guides, they told you, Yeah, don’t do it. Don’t do it. So I’m

Stefano Tricanico (1:40:03)
Yeah.

Jason (1:40:04)
curious, what advice do you have for that young guy, the young Staffano, that’s like maybe has a little ADHD and wants to go be a guide and travel the world? just general advice, what would you give him?

Stefano Tricanico (1:40:16)
I’d say do it because it’s a…

It’s a good way to, especially on the ships, it’s a way to, the reason I went is because you can get to Antarctica and the Arctic very easily on a regular basis, which independently would be very difficult to do. It’s kind of the

Jason (1:40:31)
That’s true.

Stefano Tricanico (1:40:32)
reason I, know, everywhere else you can just fly to quite simply, cheaply on a regular flight and go and do your thing. don’t need to, and if you wanna really explore and have adventures, go and do it on your own, I would say. Go and work, get the money, do your little,

expedition and go. But if you want to get to the hard to reach places, being on the ships is definitely the way to do it. And you travel in style, you’re comfortable. I mean, would never have been able to do the Northwest Passage in Arctic and Antarctic to the extent that I have to get to these places. It’s impossible independently and it would have cost me a small fortune. And the bar to entry is not that high for the ships because you do a lot of

Interpretive stuff and you’re in a bigger team and you know you can kind of you do very simple boat work I mean personally, I would like it to be a lot higher the bar to entry but just out of because I’m I like To be as competent as possible. I’d rather be over prepared You know prepare for the worst and expect the best kind of thing and that’s what

Jason (1:41:35)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (1:41:35)
I prefer because you’re working in very very challenging unforgiving environments

But because of the amount, because it’s tourism and they’re constantly going around, they just don’t have that amount of competent people to go around. So they lower the

Jason (1:41:50)
Yeah, I get that.

Stefano Tricanico (1:41:51)
bar and lower the bar and put them in. And there’s not much to do about that. It’s not what I would do, it’s not what I prefer, but that’s how it is. So fortunately, fortunately,

Jason (1:41:59)
Yeah, I’m sure there’s some challenges. Is it a young person’s

is that a young person’s game?

Stefano Tricanico (1:42:05)
No, I mean I regularly work with guys well into their 70s, some of them even 80s. They just end up lecturing more and they have all the knowledge. So we do lectures on board and we interpret it. It’s not very physical. Any of the landings we do, we don’t cover too much area, especially in the Arctic. We keep it tight because of the polar bear terrain. We need to be able to get out of there quickly for bear turns up. And in Antarctica, you’re limited to

a small area because you want to limit the damage and the impact you have on land so we stick to little flagged routes. doesn’t amount to any more than a few hundred meters of wandering around. And the rest of the time you’re spending it on zodiacs.

inflatable pontoon boats. So it’s, you know, it’s long days, but I mean, it’s not like you have to be physically fit or anything. And generally the guys, if you do it often, you maintain a certain level of fitness and then you get to live on a nice comfortable ship. So we have everything from up and come youngsters all the way through to the, you know, the old timers and they’re still going strong.

Jason (1:43:04)
All all all dudes

like us or me, I should speak for myself.

Stefano Tricanico (1:43:06)
Yeah, way, well older than me, I mean…

Jason (1:43:09)
‘Cause ’cause I’m thinking

Stefano Tricanico (1:43:10)
You get expedition leaders

into their 70s and they’ll still, you know, maybe they step back from expedition leading because you’re just on call the entire time and they just don’t want to be bothered with the responsibility and constantly having to be making decisions. just like, just stick me in a zodiac and I’m happy to guide again. Someone else can do that. I’ve been there, done that kind of thing. I don’t need to prove anything to myself anymore. I’ll just putter around on a boat and talk about icebergs and whales and birds and things like that.

Jason (1:43:40)
Are are there any mistakes you feel like you made that you wish you could go back and change? And the second part of that question is that you’re willing to share with us. Or just any any

Stefano Tricanico (1:43:50)
Any mistakes that I made…

Jason (1:43:53)
anything you wish you would have done differently that you think is relevant that someone maybe needs to hear. And if not, that’s okay too. There I’m sure there we all have things we’ve done we wish we’d done differently, but mm hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (1:44:01)
I wish I would have gone earlier to the ships because

Jason (1:44:08)
Okay.

Stefano Tricanico (1:44:08)
it was really cool back in the day because there were almost no rules. They went to places that you can’t go to anymore now.

there was only one or two ships operating so you had these places all to yourself. Now there’s dozens and dozens of ships and you need scheduling software to make sure you don’t

Jason (1:44:27)
Mm-hmm.

Stefano Tricanico (1:44:28)
end up at the same place at the same time. So if anything I’d wish I’d started 20 years earlier.

Jason (1:44:33)
Yeah. All right.

Stefano Tricanico (1:44:33)
I just wasn’t

even aware that it was a thing because I was so fixated on mountaineering and yes the Arctic was there and but I never it never even occurred to me and I would have gotten on I would have gotten on just with a few courses I know now that I would have but it was also my fault because I wanted to

Jason (1:44:49)
You’ve seen others because you’ve seen others

that did not have to sail from South Africa to Brazil to get a job.

Stefano Tricanico (1:44:56)
Yes, yeah. Well, in those

days, it was just, you willing to do that type of work? Are you interested? Yes, you’ve got to do some training, but eventually you’ll figure it out. So that’s the only, mean, and those days are gone now. It’s not like something that somebody can learn from, but yeah. Do it while you’re still young. Get in there, don’t waste any time, I would say. Don’t dither too much about your decision. Yeah, do what you’ve got to do.

Jason (1:45:16)
Very cool. I hope I hope someone hears that. I hope someone hears that. Stefan Yeah, absolutely.

Stephana, we’ve we’ve spent you’ve been gracious to spend a lot of time with me, and I know you’re an introvert, so you mentioned

Stefano Tricanico (1:45:27)
Hahaha

Jason (1:45:28)
so you probably need to go decompress for a while in your cabin. But but I’m curious before we wrap up, is there anything else that yeah that you wish I would have asked or anything else that you want to make sure that our listeners know about you, polar bears?

Life in general or anything like that that that we should touch on before we wrap up.

Stefano Tricanico (1:45:47)
I think the general advice would be never take anything you see on face value and I think we all know that now with social media especially you know there’s so much nonsense out there if you have especially stuff like conservation and you know because we’ve been talking so much about it you know if you’re really interested in something if if Whether you want to donate your money or your time or anything make sure you inform yourself

Take in as many sources as you can. Don’t automatically exclude an argument just because it’s not reinforcing what you already believe, especially that. Challenge yourself. Specifically go and look for the arguments that are counteracting what you believe because everyone has a point. There’s a lesson to be learned everywhere and everyone has a point otherwise they wouldn’t have a leg to stand on. The argument would fall flat immediately. So I’ve learned more from saying, well,

These guys have an argument and they argue it just as fervently and passionately as I do. So they must have a point there and you’ll find yourself being surprised constantly. Just never settle on a belief. It’s just a story we tell ourselves. Always challenge it, always go to the opposite end, the ones you least want to hear from because they’ve got a point to be made and there’s a lesson to be learned there. Whether you accept it or not, it’s at least going to broaden your view and you’ll get closer to the truth. For me, it was always about,

truth, unvarnished. don’t want some comforting story. Whatever it is, whether it’s horrific or beautiful, whatever the truth is, I want it as it is. And the only way to get there is to not hold on to a belief just because it brings you comfort or it’s easy or it’s… You’re not going to get challenged by the people around you. You have to be willing to be ridiculed. You have to be willing to be challenged. You don’t have to defend yourself necessarily, but…

constantly changing, constantly wanting to learn and taking these difficult to take positions, like the polar bear argument for instance. If you’re after the truth, be ready to face a lot of pushback. Or you can just take a nice back seat and chill out and enjoy the ride. But some people just don’t have that luxury, you can’t do it. Some people like me, I just can’t do it. To

Jason (1:48:00)
Ha ha ha.

Stefano Tricanico (1:48:02)
my own detriment.

Jason (1:48:04)
I yeah, I I get it, ’cause it’s it’s between like, you know, being willing to stand up for what you believe, but at the same time being flexible enough. ‘Cause that’s the most of what you were just saying was be open to challenging yourselves and looking for the truth instead of sticking with w the story that you have in your head, which I think they call confirmation bias, where

Stefano Tricanico (1:48:24)
Yes.

Jason (1:48:25)
you’re like you decide, okay, this is the way it is, so I’m gonna look for evidence to support what I already believe and I’m gonna discount everything that doesn’t. So that’s

A sign of maturity that hopefully you and I have that maybe the the the twenty year old versions of us, I don’t know about you, I won’t speak for you, but might not have got it. I remember learning about confirmation bias and how interesting it is. And it’s like, wow, it’s it’s changed my life just to recognize that that it’s a normal thing. But but anyway, I’m rambling. Stefano.

Thank you so much. This was a fascinating conversation. quite a bit different than others that I’ve had and I really appreciate that, but also a lot of overlap as well. And thank you so much. Let’s I look forward to connecting with you and continuing to have more conversations in the future. So thanks for joining us.

Stefano Tricanico (1:49:09)
Thank you, thanks for giving me the time to rant and carry on. I’m efficient.

Jason (1:49:12)
No, no, no. It was fun. and I and I sh I

should mention before we go, is, you know, anybody that’s still here with us in this conversation, I’m I trust that’ll be many. if this is resonating with you or if especially if you’re someone that’s involved, I assume Stefano, I’m I’m preaching to the right person. If you’re someone that’s involved with corporate donations and figuring out how to make sure money is working, in the way that you want it to, then

You know, Stefano would obviously be a great person to chat with. There’ll be a link to his website in the show notes. it’s the only link in the show notes. So it’ll be easy to find and reach out to Stefano. Make make sure you mention that you heard his conversation with Jason here on the podcast, and then he’ll let me know. So it just always feels good to know that people are listening and and taking action and what he’s doing is pretty cool. So Stefano, thank you so much. I’ll chat with you soon. All right.

Stefano Tricanico (1:50:03)
Thank you, Jason. It’s been a pleasure.

Jason (1:50:06)
Thanks, you too, bye.

 

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