Enjoy early access to Suzy’s story here; before it is published to all of the popular platforms on October 27, 2026.

Episode #211: Dr. Suzy Ross

Founder, Scientist, Author

Integr8

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Guest Bio

Dr. Suzy Ross is the founder of Integr8, a consulting, training, and certification practice dedicated to the emerging science of transformation and integration. With over 20 years of experience as a professor, author, and social scientist, she has extensively studied what occurs before, during, and after life-changing experiences. Her research culminated in the Figure-8 Model of Transformation and her book, The Map to Wholeness, which outlines the universal process of becoming a new version of oneself. Dr. Ross advises founders and organizational leaders on transformation strategy, experience design, and integration infrastructure, partnering with companies across travel, wellness, healthcare, hospitality, and education to help translate powerful experiences into meaningful human and business outcomes.

Show Summary

In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins sits down with Dr. Suzy Ross to explore the science behind transformation, especially as it relates to travel and adventure experiences. They discuss the significance of the figure eight symbol in her work, representing both the life-changing journey and the crucial integration phase that follows. Suzy shares insight into how people often transform unexpectedly through travel, whether intentionally seeking change or encountering unforeseen catalysts.

The conversation delves into practical ways tour operators and experience providers can support transformational travel, including simple reflection techniques and creating authentic connections during trips. Suzy also reveals her personal story of a profound wilderness experience that inspired her decades-long research into transformative learning. The episode highlights the importance of integration to fully realize transformation and how travel can serve as a unique catalyst in this process.

Key Takeaways

✓ Transformation involves both the life-changing experience and the integration phase afterward, represented by the Figure-8 Model.
✓ Most transformational travel experiences happen by surprise rather than by intentional searching.
✓ Integration is essential for transformation to be lasting and meaningful, yet it is often overlooked.
✓ Novelty and leaving familiar social structures, or “anti-structure,” play key roles in enabling transformation during travel.
✓ Transformation does not require travel; it can also occur through significant life events such as marriage, retirement, or career changes.
✓ Tour operators can foster transformation by facilitating authentic human connections and encouraging reflection in unobtrusive ways.
✓ Simple methods like sharing a “word of the day” or providing thought-provoking questions can enhance guest reflection and connection.
✓ The transformation process is gradual and can take 15 years or more to complete fully.
✓ Dr. Ross’s personal transformative experience in the wilderness drove her lifelong research and practice in transformation science.
✓ The emerging transformation economy reflects a shift towards selling experiences that foster profound personal change.

What You’ll Find on Integr8

✓ Consulting and training that apply the Figure-8 Model to help organizations design transformative experiences.
✓ Certification programs for practitioners and facilitators focused on transformation and integration.
✓ Strategies for experience design that balance catalytic moments with integration support.
✓ Guidance on building integration infrastructure to sustain transformation beyond the initial experience.
✓ Collaboration across industries including travel, wellness, healthcare, hospitality, and education.
✓ Practical approaches to support both intentional and unexpected transformational journeys.

Learn more about Integr8 and connect with Suzy at:

https://suzyross.net

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Podcast Transcript

This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.

Jason (01:09)
Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the Adventure Traveler. So happy to have each and every one of you back today. Also very excited. We’ve got another fascinating guest for you today. it is Dr. Suzy Ross. Suzy is the founder, a scientist, an author, all kinds of things. And her company is called Integr8. And that’s kind of abbreviated a little bit, but the key is it’s got an eight on the end of it. We’re going to discuss that a little bit more. But Suzy, welcome to the show. Happy to have you here.

Dr. Suzy Ross (01:39)
Hi Jason, this is awesome, thanks for having me.

Jason (01:42)
Yeah, it’s gonna be a lot of fun. We spoke I guess it was a week or two ago. We usually we do like a ten, fifteen minute kind of get to know each other call before we decide if we wanna move forward and record something. I think you and I ended up speaking for at least an hour. So it was a fascinating just kind of qu quote unquote intro call and I’m super excited to have you back. We’re gonna go a little deeper today and and share with our audience kind of what some of the stuff that came up in that conversation, but we’re gonna go much deeper. Suzy, before we get started, let’s

Let’s dig into the name of your company because I said, well, it’s kind of abbreviated. There’s an eight on the end of it. So I’d like you to share with our listeners both what they should know about, like if they were to go to Google, obviously we’ve gonna have a link in the show notes. But if somebody is just listening to this and they remember it later and they want to go look you up, what should they know about how to find you and what the company’s name really is? And then and then let’s dig into what is it that you do at integrate.

Dr. Suzy Ross (02:36)
Hmm, okay. Yeah,

Jason (02:37)
That’s a lot, I know.

Dr. Suzy Ross (02:39)
okay. So I’ll start with, I’m beaming in today from Santa Cruz, California. So this is where I live. I’m talking to you from my deck that I love working in. And so why integr8? What’s integr8 all about is your question. So I’m a professor, yeah.

Jason (02:54)
Well on and the yeah, kind

of the short. It’s like give our k kind of a teaser, I guess. The the sixty second cause we’ve got the next hour and a half to figure out how you how you built that up. So let’s not start with the history.

Dr. Suzy Ross (02:58)
The short version? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, right. We got some time. Okay.

Jason (03:06)
Let’s just what is it you do? If that’s

Dr. Suzy Ross (03:08)
Yeah.

Jason (03:08)
and I know it’s it’s not that easy, but let’s

Dr. Suzy Ross (03:10)
Yes.

Jason (03:11)
start with that, then we’ll dig into how you got there.

Dr. Suzy Ross (03:14)
I see, gotcha. Okay, so integrate is the word integrate, like as in integration. instead of at the end, the E, it’s the number eight. So integrate. And why that? Because my research shows that transformation happens in the movement and the movement and symbol of the figure eight.

And then my work, Integrate, is helping people to integrate life-changing experiences. And helping companies to help people to integrate life-changing experiences. So, Integrate makes it simple. It’s got the aid in there, which means we’re talking about transformation and integration and that type of thing. How’s that for short?

Jason (04:02)
wonderful. And I’m happy I asked you that because ’cause the eight at the end could j I s I kind of framed it as an abbreviation, but it’s more than that. It’s it’s kind of the eight is is it fair to say that eight is kind of the infinity sign? Is that is that true or am I just making that up in my head?

Dr. Suzy Ross (04:21)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, another flyby of what is integrate, what’s the eight? The short story is the eight is the outcome of my doctoral research that I completed about 20 years ago. And basically the outcomes of the research where I studied how do you integrate a life changing travel experience. And the outcome was that we integrate

through the process of the upper part of the eight is the life-changing journey. So anytime you have the hero’s journey, the life-changing travel is the upper part of the eight, and the lower part of the eight is the integration of that experience. And what the research showed was that, one, we can integrate, number one, and number two, it happens through that lower half of the figure eight. And a complete transformation is the whole eight.

the upper journey of the travel, the life-changing experience, and the lower part, the integration once you get home. And then when you complete both, which is the whole figure eight, upright figure eight, then that is the finality of you becoming a new version of yourself. So you can’t have transformative experience without integration, which most of us know. So that’s why the figure eight is more than just a symbol. It actually is a map.

Jason (05:41)
Okay. It’s there are so many different questions popping into my head and so many different directions we could go with this. and I think I want to start with I think a lot of our listeners, a lot of people that listen to our podcast, you know, to this show, or people in, you know, kind of you’re in my community kind of get that travel is an integrative thing or it’s it’s more than just going sitting on a beach somewhere and chilling out and not doing anything. I’m still

I still haven’t figured out where the question is behind this. But do you think that people have these transformational or integrational? Is integrational a word? If not, I just made it up. But but

Dr. Suzy Ross (06:17)
Ooh, I love it. That’s super fun.

Jason (06:23)
but I guess the question is do you have to be intentional about things when you travel in order to change your life? Or does it just kind of you just go and things happen? I mean, what it because you’ve done

You’ve looked at this stuff. You’ve thought about this stuff a heck of a lot more than I have. is it possible for somebody to go on a trip and and their life improves without them actually trying? Is that on is that on the tour operator? Make sure that happens

Dr. Suzy Ross (06:45)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Jason (06:48)
for them or how to tell just let’s go into that a little bit. There’s no question there. I’m just curious.

Dr. Suzy Ross (06:51)
Yes. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. For real. So, looking at a lot of the folks that you’ve had here, the amazing leaders that you’ve had on your podcast, know, so many of them are designing and guiding transformative experiences for other people. And specifically through adventure and outdoors and that sort of thing. And, you know, the vast majority of people

are having transformation by surprise. So we go on an adventure for so many different reasons that are very personal. We’re getting pulled to something or attracted to something and our conscious awareness might not be altogether there as far as knowing why we’re doing it. And that’s totally fine, of course. And then we have the adventure experience and then we have all like

these breakthrough moments, these touching moments, these impactful experiences, and then we come home feeling different.

Jason (07:55)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (07:56)
And so is the transformation happening intentionally? Of course, there are some people who are, they are seeking to change themselves, and they look for that catalyst.

They’re literally looking through the marketing opportunities, the advertisements out there, searching on the internet, now using AI. I want something very specific, and I want to be changed. But that is a small percentage of people, even now, let’s say, maximum 20%. And, uh-huh. Mm-hmm.

Jason (08:29)
Suzy, when I when I hear you say that, I think

of the person that specifically seeks out the Camino Real or something, or those types of trips, maybe, you know, climbing Kilimanjaro. Or, you know, not that everybody that wants to climb Kilimanjaro is because they want to change their life or whatever. as opposed to the person that’s just like, Vietnam s looks cool. Looks like, you know, I like Vietnamese food and you know, it’s a big cultural difference.

So when you say that a small percentage are looking that’s that’s what comes up for me is the communal royale. Is that th what you’re talking about? That type of thing?

Dr. Suzy Ross (08:59)
Mm-hmm. Yeah,

I mean, I had the fortune of doing some participating in the fisherman’s pilgrimage, fisherman’s trail in Portugal last year as a researcher participant. And I met people who were doing various different Caminos and I sense for a lot of people is getting,

Jason (09:18)
Did I s I said Camino Real, but I think I meant Camino de Santiago. I d Camino Real is like

a I don’t even know what that is. Is there anyway, a Camino. I need more coffee. I I think it’s Camino de San

Dr. Suzy Ross (09:26)
Well, that’s the name of a really long street in the Bay Area.

Jason (09:33)
del Santiago or something is a is a popular one. But there’s a bunch of them. There’s the AT. You mentioned the Fisherman’s Trail. Yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (09:37)
Yeah, there’s so many of them.

so many, right? it’s, I guess for me, it’s getting so trendy, this pilgrimage type of thing. And I think there’s a vast array of like offerings. But still, I think that type of situation is still like transformation by surprise where

So many people are going for so many different internal reasons with partial awareness of what what but in the end that doesn’t even matter It doesn’t

Jason (10:07)
I love it.

Dr. Suzy Ross (10:08)
matter. It doesn’t matter whether we go with intention to transform whether it happens by surprise or During the travel experience. We have a crisis and the crisis becomes really like very catalytic and in life-changing Like I have a friend right now who’s

currently in Costa Rica and she had a medical emergency and she’s having a life-changing experience that she wasn’t anticipating, right? And so these things happen and in the end for the psyche, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter whether we intend, whether we’re surprised or whether we have a crisis. It doesn’t actually matter because human beings transform through the peak or the crisis or somewhere in between.

And all that really matters is that we have a catalyst, that there’s a catalyzing experience,

Jason (10:56)
That we have an experience of some yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (10:58)
a peak or a low that causes us, and this is the key part, it causes us to experience a different reality than we knew was possible. And when

Jason (11:11)
You know

Dr. Suzy Ross (11:12)
we have that, that’s the key.

Jason (11:15)
It’s so cool because as I listen to you describe that, I’m like, it’s almost kind of like a duh. I’ve had a couple hundred conversations now with people. And as I’m listening to you, I’m thinking back to those. I mean, well, I’ve had more conversations than more conversations in my life than that. But just the conversations that we’ve had here on the podcast, pretty much every one of you know, at some point during the conversation, we talk about that experience, you know.

Dr. Suzy Ross (11:40)
Mmm.

Jason (11:41)
people that work in this space in the travel industry, tourism, adventures, whatever, when we go into the conversation, there’s that that trip that they took across country with their their dad, you know, when they were twelve years old and stopped at every rock shop along the way or whatever. You know, whatever that is, we all have our own experiences. And most of them were not a, I’m gonna go do this to transform my life.

They just ended up having this experience. And then, you know, 15, 20, 30 years later, they’re sitting here with me telling me a story about this accidental experience or this thing that happened

Dr. Suzy Ross (12:18)
You too.

Jason (12:18)
that they can look back on and say, Okay, that’s why I do African safari adventures for my clients or lead tracks or do the type of research and the work that you’ve done. So that makes sense.

I don’t know. I just wanted to share that because it was in my head and when it gets in my head, I have to share. So thank you. but you’ve had that experience. You’ve had a lot of conversations with people as well.

Dr. Suzy Ross (12:42)
Yeah, mean, the first part of my work was really understanding what the heck is transformation anyway, you know? Like, what is this? Because I used to lead backpacking trips in the wilderness in Colorado. I’ve led in Costa Rica and Peru. And I’ve had my own life-changing experiences while being in the wilderness that happened by surprise for me.

So I became very fascinated with how do humans become a new me? And so then I started studying it for my doctoral work 20 years ago. Why am I telling you that? It’s because I have heard a lot of stories. You’re right.

Jason (13:22)
Yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (13:23)
Because after my doctoral research, I, you for the last 20 years, I’ve been continuing to study it, right? And asking, like hearing everyone’s stories. What happened before, during, and after?

the life-changing experience because the literature is very solid that if we don’t integrate, we don’t actually transform. That lower part of the figure eight is critical, like when we come home. And so that means a lot for us personally, right, for our own journey. But for those of us that are in this type of industry where we’re…

helping people to become new versions of themselves through nature, through adventure. Learning about integration is gonna help us to support our people when they come home so that they keep coming back, right? The return customer, the return customer is key, right?

Jason (14:16)
Right. So that’s the wh what what’s in it for me thing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (14:22)
And also the word of mouth afterwards. So…

So yeah, so that’s kind of what I,

Jason (14:27)
So is he?

Dr. Suzy Ross (14:27)
that’s an important part of what I’m bringing to the table.

Jason (14:30)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, obviously we are discussing the travel side of it because it’s an adventure travel podcast. That’s kind of what we do here. And I think it’s important for me to acknowledge that transformation doesn’t require travel. People can have transformational experiences that have nothing to do with travel. we’re I think you and I are particularly interested in the travel side of it, but

So I’m trying to think of other things. Transformation could be, you know, somebody,

Dr. Suzy Ross (14:57)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (14:58)
you know, I don’t know, running a marathon in their hometown. It could be

Dr. Suzy Ross (15:00)
Yeah. Yes.

Jason (15:04)
taking up gardening and connecting with themselves through that. So it doesn’t have to be travel, right? I I mean and good.

Dr. Suzy Ross (15:11)
That’s right. Exactly. mean, people are having

catalytic life changing experiences all around us all the time. You know, giving birth to your first baby,

Jason (15:20)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (15:21)
getting married, retiring, having, losing a close family member. It could be having a change in your salary, an upgrade at work. And it could be moving, moving to a new city, new state.

So there’s all sorts of life-changing experiences that we undergo. Graduation from a major degree. There’s just so many, right, that happen that are either a peak or something that’s difficult. And like I said, doesn’t, the psyche doesn’t care which one it is.

Jason (15:55)
But it seems so much more fun to talk about it when it comes to travel, right? So is it you know, people like me and you and maybe a lot of other people that that we know, it’s like, yeah, we

Dr. Suzy Ross (15:59)
Yeah, right. yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jason (16:05)
know transformation does not require travel, but boy, wouldn’t it be fun if we could create f transformation

Dr. Suzy Ross (16:08)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jason (16:11)
during travel as well. But like you mentioned, transformational experience through travel could be a negative thing. It it things happen when you’re traveling. So I’m curious yeah, go ahead.

Dr. Suzy Ross (16:19)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Another important one

is divorce.

Jason (16:25)
Yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (16:25)
you know, when we go through divorce, it’s so, so intense for so many people. Or when our kids leave home and we’re the empty nest, empty nesters, you know, there’s just lots of different possibilities for turning points in our life.

Jason (16:42)
I’ve noticed those both those things you mentioned can be catalysts for people starting to travel. You know, there’s

Dr. Suzy Ross (16:50)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (16:51)
a lot of I’ve run into I know you’ve run into them. Maybe it’s a woman or man that, you know, was married to somebody for twenty years, thirty years, longer, and their partner didn’t really want to leave the country, didn’t want to leave the house, maybe even.

And all of a sudden they’ve got time on their hands and and they don’t have a partner that says, No, let’s not go. That sounds boring. So you’ve got this newly single person or a couple that maybe both want to travel for years, but that can be challenging with kids. so now they’re empty nesters and they go travel. So that’s an important part of the the travel market.

And my understanding or what I think you do is some of what you do is work with tour operators and experience providers to help them figure out how to work better with maybe people like that. Is that part of the conversation you have? Or am I just talking about something that is kind of obvious?

Dr. Suzy Ross (17:48)
Mm-hmm. No, I think, you know, I’m sure many of the people that are listening know about the experience economy and then the transformation economy. You know, that Joe Pine has, you know, helped to pioneer a knowledge about that phenomena and that, you know, we’ve been in the experience economy. The whole world is now the primary driver is selling experiences.

And then, you know, it started earlier on, it came on like the ultimate driving experience with BMW or with Disney World was providing magical experiences. And now you look at all advertisement, it’s all about selling an experience, like Starbucks is selling experiences. But the dominant…

paradigm for the world economy is shifting into selling transformation, the process of becoming a new you. And although it’s emerging more prevalently now, in about 10 years or so, the whole world is going to be, the economy is going to be taken over by selling a new you. And so,

travel is one of the leaders in that because travel is so much easier to transform during travel because travel has so much novelty and the novelty that’s just part of travel is a key part of what helps us to open up and to imagine and see and experience and feel

things that we’re not used to. And that is key for us being able to experience a glimpse of the new me. And that is the key piece for travel or transformation happening. that, you know, travel is just so ripe for it. It’s one of the easiest ways to trigger transformative experiences.

And let me say one more thing about that, and that is in 2010, I published my first paper about transformative travel, and it’s identified as one of the first papers to use that language. But the title of what I love about the title is Transformative Travel, a Radical Way to Foster, no, an Enjoyable Way to Foster Radical Change. And so,

And so you don’t have to say any more than that. It’s an enjoyable way to foster radical change. And now in a time when we have an epidemic of loneliness and also mental health crises, travel is going to be an enjoyable way to help people to heal, mend, grow, types of things.

Jason (20:46)
I I love that in the title of your book or the paper that you published that yeah of and it goes back to what I said. We’re talking about travel because that’s a fun way to transform. There’s a lot of ways to transform. A lot of things in your life can cause transformation. Travel’s a definitely a fun one. We say fun, but the things that can come out of there is maybe just traveling with a partner together the first time. You know, there’s probably a lot of relationships that ended after the f you know.

I remember when I was young, my dad used to say, if you ever meet a a a a young lady or a woman that you really like, you should take her camping before you invest too much time and energy into the relationship. Take her camping or caving or something like that. So, you know, cause you learn so much about each other. solo travelers or just any traveler learns a lot about themselves. And it could just be the awareness of wow, look what happens when we put ourselves in a stressful situation. We showed up at the airport and the transfer driver wasn’t there, for example.

And how how what came up for us, what fears came up about ch you know, childhood abandonment or or whatever. And those things tend to not come up when you have your daily routine all worked out where you get up and you have your coffee every morning at the same time and you sit down and start your work every day at the same time. Is that part of it? Is just it is. It’s just use you use the word catalyst, right? Something

Dr. Suzy Ross (22:02)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason (22:04)
that’s a little outside the the comfort zone.

Dr. Suzy Ross (22:07)
Yeah, mean, the novelty is the key. Outside your comfort zone is key, you know, as part of the novelty. But there’s also something in anthropology, I love this term, it’s called anti-structure. And

Jason (22:20)
Mm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (22:21)
so that’s by Victor Turner, one of the great anthropologists who studied rites of passage and initiation, which was the ancient way of transformation throughout culture across time.

was initiation, rites of passage. And that was the formula for transformation that is still true. anti-structure is key. What is that? Anti-structure is when you leave the societal structures that put us on autopilot. So there’s exactly what you described.

our routine, what’s expected of us socially, emotionally, even what we’re wearing, the way we think, it’s all influenced by the social structures that we live and breathe in since we’re born. And so when we travel, even if it’s to another nearby city, better yet, a different state, even more extreme is international.

When we do that, we are purposely, not purposely, we are leaving the social structures that we’re swimming in 24-7 that is affecting every layer of how we’re thinking, being, doing, even our feelings. And so that anti-structure experience, the outside of the structure, that plays a key role in our receptivity to having a catalytic

experience, having a transformative experience, an impactful experience, something that touches us, changes us.

Jason (24:00)
You know, a couple things came up when I was listening to you say that. I’ve had a few conversations with operators that specifically I I think now in and in hindsight of retrospect, I think what was the word anti structure, right? Am I saying it right? Anti anti structure. I love that.

Dr. Suzy Ross (24:15)
Yeah, anti-structure.

Jason (24:17)
And immediately like this idea popped in my head, you know, we had a guy on the show that does desert island survival type tours, you know, which you can kind of imagine like, you know, the TV show survivor type we

Take everybody go to a deserted island and we teach you survival tactics and skills and and we really get you outside your comfort zone and then there’s, you know, an opportunity to practice some of that stuff. Or or tours that were put together that are just kinda like, we’re not actually gonna give you an itinerary. You don’t actually know where we’re gonna go. You just have to trust us that we’re gonna go somewhere cool and do something fun. You know, or it which turns out to be transformational. That’s super outside the box or anti structure or

Outside the comfort zone for so many people that want to know, okay, exactly where are we going, exactly what should I pack, what time is the person gonna pick me up at the airport? They want to know every single detail. So where I’m going with this is I think some operators maybe have already chatted with you about these types of topics and come up with how do we make this tour more transformational? And the answer is not necessarily make it super structured, I guess is what I hear you saying.

Is that maybe if you really want to have a transformational experience for your clients, maybe you want to leave a lot of room for that anti structure, even ri recognizing that sometimes clients might think that they don’t really want that, but maybe you th you mix that in. Is that is there a case for

Dr. Suzy Ross (25:39)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (25:40)
that? Because I’ve been with a few tour operators that things happened that were not on the itinerary and honestly those are the things I remember the most and the and were the most impactful.

Dr. Suzy Ross (25:50)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, so it’s a little different than what I’m talking about as far as structure because, you know, a silent retreat, you know, has an enormous amount of structure. You know, there’s just like a ritual for every single thing that happens and, you know, we’re doing this from this time and this time, but it’s all in silence. And so there’s an enormous amount of structure going on. But so it doesn’t…

have to be lack of structure or you don’t know. It could be both extremes like what you just said. You have no idea what’s going to happen and trust us to a silent retreat where you know exactly what’s going to happen.

Jason (26:29)
Is that that but

that sounds purposeful. So like you mentioned a silent retreat and I’m thinking, okay, the struc it is so structured, maybe. Does that is that because that frees you up to you’re not worried about when are we gonna eat next or when are we gonna stop or how long are we gonna do this? It just frees you up to go to other places. I I’ve never I wanna actually I wanna discuss that a little bit more. The silent retreats.

Dr. Suzy Ross (26:51)
Yes. Yes,

exactly. Again, it’s about being able to experience something that is extremely different than what you are accustomed to. So most of us are not accustomed to spending a week meditating with other people in silence or longer. Right?

Jason (27:11)
A week? I think most people are not used to an hour of silence, but go ahead.

Dr. Suzy Ross (27:16)
So that’s the whole point, right? The whole point is that’s why novelty can’t be underestimated. As far as its catalytic power to touch us deeply and to cause us to experience a reality we are not used to. And that’s the key. So I’m not used to sitting and meditating for a whole day, let alone a week. And you’re right.

There’s a lot of structure in that, but that structure is allowing the freedom of the psyche. And so there’s this, the freedom and the new frontier is in beingness and in being with yourself and being in silence and less movement. So the frontier is that experience that’s so novel.

and you’re not even doing anything. whereas the other extreme is living on an island with some strangers and like, you’re afraid you’re gonna die and you’re learning skills and you have no idea what’s gonna happen next. So that is extraordinary novelty that puts a lot of pressure of even the threat of death.

perceived or real and that is another approach to causing us to do something that we didn’t think was possible and so that desire that need for human beings to do something that we didn’t think was possible is critical for our own like longevity

And because we are creatures of habit and we’re creatures of control. But in order to become a new me, it is important that we expose ourselves to experiences that cause us to feel a little bit out of control, to let go of the control so that we can become more open and experience things that we’ve imagined.

Jason (29:19)
You know what’s I think what’s interesting or what I f find interesting just about this little part of the conversation, we we talked about the extremes of silence and meditation for a week and maybe on the other side, am I gonna die? Am I gonna get eaten by a jaguar? That type of thing. But I’ll tell you what.

The idea of sitting in silence for a week and meditating for a week is probably more terrifying to some people than being on an island and worrying about jaguars. Do you agree? I mean, I maybe you’re used to it, but

Dr. Suzy Ross (29:48)
Absolutely.

Jason (29:49)
I that’s ter like even me. Like and I kind of think of myself as pretty open minded and kind of a spiritual kind of guy, but holy cow, I’m also an extrovert that has a podcast because I want people to talk to. So I can imagine.

Dr. Suzy Ross (30:03)
Yeah, right.

Jason (30:05)
They call them

Dr. Suzy Ross (30:05)
Yep.

Jason (30:05)
the Viposna retreat or what is there a particular one

Dr. Suzy Ross (30:07)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason (30:09)
that’s known wha how do you pronounce it? V Vasna. Yeah, I had a friend I

Dr. Suzy Ross (30:11)
Vipassana. Vipassana, yeah.

Jason (30:15)
had a friend that went and did it and I was like really just super nervous and ex excited at the same time to hear her talk about what it was all about and she’s like, you should do it and I’m like, I don’t know. okay, I wanna touch on the word novelty because you’ve used it probably fifteen, twenty times.

In some circles, maybe in my world, it’s kind of a bad word. You know, some people novelty seeking. This is novelty seeking behavior. It’s bad. You know, social media is all about novelty, everything novelty. So I hear a lot of people kind of poo poo the word novelty. you know. but you’re you’re clearly saying it’s it sounds like one of the most important parts. So

Have you had other people that when they hear you say the word novelty, they respond in a weird way or what is there anything we should touch on there around the w just the word novelty?

Dr. Suzy Ross (31:04)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, I didn’t know that people are using that word novelty in the literature about recreation, recreation therapy, adventure therapy, adventure, transformation, all of that. Novelty has just always been around. It’s something that’s key. And we need it for our neurology, you know? Our brain seeks novelty. And our body seeks.

novelty because novelty is where, is like a source of life.

Jason (31:36)
I am so happy to hear you say that. I realized

when you said I haven’t really heard anybody, you know, poo poo the word. And I was like, it’s in a little bit of it’s in my head because I

Dr. Suzy Ross (31:46)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (31:46)
definitely really in I mean I’ve been traveling full time for five years.

Novelty’s super important to me. I know it’s important to me. And I think sometimes I feel some shame or some guilt because I have other people in my family that maybe, you know, might even look at me and say, Geez, Jason, you know, you just can never get enough, can you? Like every you know,

Dr. Suzy Ross (32:05)
Waaah!

Jason (32:06)
can’t you just sit still? Can’t you just do a miserable job? Can’t you, you know? So I think that in my head I’ve created a situation where people around you know, where I enjoy the novelty too much, if that’s possible.

Dr. Suzy Ross (32:18)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (32:18)
I mean I’m sure it is it could be possible. It’s called ADHD.

Dr. Suzy Ross (32:19)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No, yeah, for sure. For sure.

Yeah, I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier about this idea of the meditation retreat and like meditating for a long period, being in a quiet, silent retreat because what we all desperately need is integration.

When we look at the figure eight, the upper part, the life-changing experience, does involve movement. And oftentimes it’s movement away, a movement towards something different. That’s what

Jason (33:01)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (33:02)
we’ve been talking about. However, in order to integrate, become a new you, it does involve less movement, being at home, being quiet.

going inside, feeling our feelings, letting go of control, being with ourselves rather than trying to do something. And all of these things are extremely uncomfortable because in the West, we are not used to developing those muscles. And of course, it’s gotten better with the now that yoga has come from India and the East over

into westernized countries. Meditation has gotten kind of she-she and that kind of thing. And so we’re getting there, right? We’re learning about these things and developing skills around them, so many people. But the bottom line is that…

going on yoga retreats, getting more popular. That’s in the right direction because we’re moving into integration activities where maybe we go on travel and the purpose is to integrate rather than have this big experience to affect us. I think the horizon for sure of travel.

is going to be that integration travel.

Jason (34:28)
think when I heard that I’m gonna paraphrase what I heard is the the top part of the eight is the maybe the the novelty, the experience, the bottom part is the integration. And it occurred to me that maybe somebody I won’t say like myself, but somebody that’s like, go, go, go. I gotta have constantly new experiences, but I can’t sit still and absorb them and process them. And I certainly would much rather go to, you know,

deserted island and have an adventure there than go sit in a room and not talk to anybody for even a few hours. yeah, I I I’m learning a lot. Thank you. I’m I’m I’m not saying

Dr. Suzy Ross (35:04)
Okay. Mm-hmm.

Jason (35:06)
any of this stuff for the sake of the the podcast conversation.

Dr. Suzy Ross (35:08)
Mmm.

Jason (35:09)
I’m just processing out loud. So I apologize everybody there for just a moment.

Dr. Suzy Ross (35:12)
And you know

what? You bring up a really good, very important point that we haven’t talked about yet and that is transformation actually is happening to you right now. Like we don’t actually have to work at transformation per se. There are definitely parts of transformation where we have to be courageous. We have to decide the thing that’s going to push us.

feel our feelings when we can. There’s like some skill sets to develop. But for the most part, transformation is happening to you. So why does that matter? Because there’s a drive for that like escape. So maybe you might want to escape and go on vacation or go do an outdoor experience and adventure experience. And it really the deeper level is you just need some escape, whatever, which is totally fine.

But then what happens during the travel is advancing your integration and you don’t necessarily know it because the information I’m sharing right now is not widely known. And so do you have to worry that you’re like behind, that you’re not integrating? Actually, what we are doing in our daily life is moving us towards integration.

However, the key piece is developing the muscles, taking time to feel our feelings, reflect, be brave, to do things that are actually towards our best interest. Like when we know that inner voice that says, you know, those people, for example, for happen for me, those people that I’ve been hanging out with, these people, I’m not really actually have anything in common with them.

Jason (37:01)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (37:01)
And

I actually, when I’m done hanging out with them, I don’t actually feel better. Sometimes I feel worse. And so, for example, that was happening for me about five years ago. I just was not having it. The social sphere that I was having in my hometown, and I was like, man, this makes me feel bad. And so finally, I just decided, I’m not going to do it. I’m not going to hang out. I’m not going to say yes.

I’m only going to say yes to people that really match who I am and that when I come home, that I feel good. And so I made that decision and I just stopped. I just stopped hanging out with those people and boy, that felt so good. Now, was I less social? Yes. Was it kind of a bummer for a while? Did it feel a little bit like some feelings I didn’t like feeling? Yes.

But in the end, my goodness, I’m so glad that I let go of that because I liberated myself from feeling like I’m stuck. And the truth is, that wasn’t true. And so that’s what I mean by having courage, that your daily life is already showing you what is a match and what’s not a match.

for what you eat, who you hang out with, the car you drive, the job you have, the way that your routine is, you know, all of it. And as we are courageous to make this hard decisions to say, this is me, this is not me. And so I’m gonna make this hard decision. And that is actually integrating.

That’s a process of integrating. so, yeah, these mundane things are important. Yeah.

Jason (38:50)
Yeah, it’s it’s so interesting ’cause I can look back kind of over my life and see several moments. Yeah. I mean, I think most of us can. Hopefully we can. If we can’t, that’s kind of sad. But those moments where you just kind of realize that’s not me, you know. Somebody told me like I think they they just some people talk about the matrix, right? The matrix told me that I need to work this type of job and these types of hours and this is just part of

what I’m supposed to be and you know, you’ve eventually come to realization, well, that’s not me. So you you mentioned people in your world that after you spent time with them, you felt worse. So you made decisions that, okay, I need to change my environment. And that is a for somebody else that could be a job. You know, I mean exactly it sounds exactly like that’s where I’m going with this is, you know, I’m in a job where every day I come home thinking, my gosh, I feel, you know,

I do not feel better. Nothing about this feels good. And when you realize, okay, I need to it’s scary. It’s scary to leave a group of friends. It’s scary to leave a job. And I guess we’re not here necessarily to tell people leave their friends and leave their jobs. But what I’m taking out of this is just that that awareness of this is not working for me and I want to change my life. I’m trying really hard to come up with a question here, but yeah, please do.

Dr. Suzy Ross (40:10)
Yeah, let me jump in here. Why

is this relevant to adventure guides, adventure leaders, founders

Jason (40:18)
Yes, thank you.

Dr. Suzy Ross (40:19)
of travel and adventure and nature-oriented things? Why is this relevant? And that is two things. One is, in what ways are your offerings integrative rather than transformative? can you include both? Both catalytic

deeply impactful experiences, but experiences that allow for that to seek in, have downtime, to have introspective time, sharing, reflection, writing, poetry, even artwork. Experiences that allow for that inward movement and then the outward movement.

both before, during, and after the travel, if possible, that is going to allow for both ends of the figure eight in your offerings. And also, another thing is what happens when your clientele go home. And if you want to increase recidivism of people coming back,

Like there’s this one woman that I’m working with, a founder, helping her retreat company. And she’s gotten to the point now where she’s got 87 % return rate. She doesn’t have to advertise

Jason (41:29)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (41:30)
anymore because she’s so good at providing both a catalytic experience, the upper part of the figure eight, but she’s helping the people integrate on the way home and whence they’re home.

So she literally has a community of people, of her alumni that know each other, they’ve gotten to support each other, they know each other’s lives, they interact with each other on a regular basis. And so that now she doesn’t have alumni, she has a community of people that she’s nurturing. So they just keep wanting more.

And that’s the ideal situation because as my one friend who’s a founder, who I’ve worked with, founder of Conscious Leaders Quest, they have an executive immersion retreat in Costa Rica. I love, he calls integration the long tail of integration. And so for example, he had Zoom meetings

with the alumni for nine months, Zoom gatherings once a month, where he’s keeping the touch point of the people so that the people are remaining in relationship. They’re knowing about each other’s lives. They know each other’s kids, what’s going on. When a crisis happens, they come together to help each other. And that is supporting the integration.

Jason (42:55)
Early on at the very beginning of the conversation, discut I asked you a little bit about the intentionality. Like, are people intentionally seeking out these transformational travel experiences? And I believe you said something like maybe twenty percent. We spoke a little bit about some of the Caminos and the hikes and all that type of thing. And when I listened to what you were just saying, I’m thinking.

Okay, yeah, this type of thing probably works well for those people that are going to a retreat or a you know, they book a c with a company that uses the word conscious in their in the name of the company. And I’m thinking, yeah, that probably all works pretty well. You know, s let’s sit down and reflect, let’s sit down and journal, let’s sit down and do art, let’s let’s follow up for the next several months on Zoom calls or whatever. It sounds great. I’m just gonna use the word is it frou fru or woo woo or

Dr. Suzy Ross (43:48)
Yeah,

woo woo. Right. huh.

Jason (43:49)
Okay. I’m just calling it as I see it and I’m not saying I’m not knocking it. I’m saying, yeah,

that probably works really well if your company is I do retreats and yoga and I do all this stuff. People are just gonna buy that. the people that sign up are gonna they want to integrate it. But how do you do that if a company comes along that really is not known for retreats, you know, a

I won’t mention any names, but we’ve got an awful lot of people that listen to this show as well. They’re like, Yeah, if I said to my clients, we’re gonna sit down and hold hands around the campfire afterwards and discuss our feelings and and and discuss what we got from our experience today, they’re like, Yeah, I’m never gonna do that. But

Dr. Suzy Ross (44:32)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (44:33)
I suspect there’s ways to help clients have a transformational experience and then integrate it.

Without them even really knowing it and without them feeling

Dr. Suzy Ross (44:43)
Yep, yep.

Jason (44:44)
like I didn’t sign up for this

Dr. Suzy Ross (44:47)
Yep, yep, absolutely. And that’s going to be the vast majority, right? Until the world really is taken over by a transformation economy, the vast majority of offerings of companies, they’re going to need to do it in the way you talked about, stealthy, behind the scenes. People don’t even know that they’re being guided towards their own destiny. That’s going to be the vast majority.

But even right now that’s happening all the time, right? You walk into a hotel lobby that’s been curated. A really excellent luxury high-end lobby is going to be totally curated to try to get the guests to have a certain type of experience. And do they know it’s been highly curated and a bazillion hours and experts have gone into making that? No. They just know how they feel. And that’s all that matters.

And so it’s the same thing with transformation design. We just have to start understanding transformation design. And then the horizon after that is integration design and infrastructure. But for now, the vast majority, we just got to understand transformation design. And so for example, right now I’m working with an award-winning wellness retreat in Costa Rica called Surf Synergy.

Jason (46:03)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (46:03)
And Surf Synergy is exactly what you’re talking about. They are really doing a great job of staging an experience that causes people to feel changed.

Jason (46:20)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (46:20)
So people in the centerpiece of their offering is literally working one-on-one with surf coaches in the water.

to get on a surfboard. And most of the people like me are not like barely done it before. And there’s fear factor and all these other things going on. But there’s also a lot contrast therapy where they’re teaching you all sorts of breathing techniques and getting in the sauna and teaching about your body and expanding your lung capacities and all these sorts of things that are really fun. And so why am I telling you this?

because do they do reflections? No. Do they sit around in circle? No. Do they talk about their feelings? No. Like, is there any of that woo going on? Zero. And many people who come there are coming for rest and rejuvenation in Costa Rica in a luxury spa and a good pour, and then they get surprised at how they

how cool it was to stand up on a surfboard and how meaningful that was. So

Jason (47:22)
I get it.

Dr. Suzy Ross (47:24)
none of that is happening. However, behind the scenes, I’m working with them to create strategies and infrastructure where they’re designing to increase the life changing experience and then support the integration. And the people aren’t even gonna have any idea that’s going on.

Jason (47:43)
Want to oversimplify this, but I worked in tourism long enough and I’ve

Dr. Suzy Ross (47:47)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (47:48)
had a few of those moments that just happened that you’re like, my gosh, I wish we could repeat this. Every every group of clients I or guests that I go out with, I wish that we could recreate that. So, an example, I had a hot air balloon ride business. We were

Dr. Suzy Ross (48:02)
We do.

Jason (48:03)
flying out in over the desert in Arizona. I say desert, but it was actually a farming area, which

Might sound weird if you aren’t familiar with Arizona. But anyway,

Dr. Suzy Ross (48:12)
Mm.

Jason (48:14)
I think it was the fourth of July. We landed the balloon out in this field and this.

You know, Latino guy, Mexican guy that was working out there came over, he thought we were in trouble. We were letting the air out of the balloon and he said, I’ve got a air compressor in the car, I can help you. And you know, he

Dr. Suzy Ross (48:29)
Ooooo

Jason (48:30)
doesn’t know anything about ballooning. I get that. We didn’t need an air compressor, we were actually taking the balloon down. But anyway, long story short, is he stuck around, helped, he was so excited. The guests got to experience this guy’s energy, and then he had a bunch of watermelons in the in the van.

So he brought out some watermelons with his mach his machete and chopped them up. And we stood there after a balloon flight with this guy on the fourth of July in Arizona eating watermelon. And I remember I looked at at my wife at the time that worked in the business with me. I said, We need to hire this guy to come every time. Because at the end of the day, both mine and even my guests’ experience, they went home and they remembered this really nice, friendly Mexican guy working in the farms in Arizona. Right. And

Dr. Suzy Ross (49:14)
Yep.

Jason (49:16)
And I guess where I’m going with that is I joked about we should hire this guy, but it’s not that hard. Let’s say you own a lodge in Africa or you or something and and you build it into your program to have you know you don’t it’s not on the itinerary. You don’t say, Okay, Thursday evening you’re gonna get to meet with one of the local farmers, but the guy just kind of shows up at at the lodge with his kids and just kind of gets integrated into the conversation.

And people have that experience and it’s it’s all planned, but they never would have known it. Is that the ty that type of thing?

Dr. Suzy Ross (49:47)
Yep. Yep. Exactly.

Exactly. Yep. That’s beautifully said. And sometimes it’s on the itinerary, sometimes it’s not.

Jason (49:55)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (49:56)
But the key is, is that front end, you’re not telling them, okay, we’re going to have this transformative experience, know, per se, or integrative. So, but you said something also that’s really important, and that is human connection, or connection with life.

So a very, it could be intricative or transformative to have a very real, authentic, touching experience with another life. So this man that shared with them in novel ways, in authentic ways, where a real connection happened between human beings, where it wasn’t canned, wasn’t…

It was just an organic experience. That can’t be underestimated on how important that is. Another different example is there’s a transformative travel boutique company outside of Amsterdam. And they help people to come out of Amsterdam in a little car to their farm and the

catalytic experience is to hug a cow, to like lay down next to a cow and hug a cow. And so

Jason (51:07)
How cool. Yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (51:09)
one, that’s extreme novelty. But what is really deep about that that touches is that connection with another life.

Jason (51:19)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (51:20)
And so whether it’s that man coming off of the air balloon and that touching or

or an animal, or there’s something that is touching them that’s a life form. And that’s a really wonderful catalyst.

Jason (51:37)
You bring up it’s such a good point because I’ve learned that most people grow up in a world where they don’t feel like they can ask for connection. They don’t feel like they can initiate connection. So let’s say a cow. Let’s say because it’s a great example. Yeah. I mean,

Dr. Suzy Ross (51:54)
Yeah, let’s go with the cow thing.

Jason (51:57)
let’s say somebody has always thought cows were cool and they’ve always wanted to pet a cow.

They don’t have a cow and they don’t know anybody that has a cow and they don’t know anybody that has a farm. So it’s all they’ve ever done is they’ve driven down the road. And every time they drive down the road out in the country somewhere and they look over and they see a cow and they think, I really wish I could stop and go meet that cow. I believe it. I think kids are like that. And then we lose our enthusiasm as we get older. And so as an operator, you can facilitate those. You can give permission you can give people permission to have a connection that

they feel like they need permission to have. So you say, come on, let’s go. We’re gonna go get close to a cow. And if you’re the type of person that’s always want get close to a cow, but you never felt like you could get close to a cow, that could be a transformational experience. And it also opens up the possibility, maybe there’s other connections that I can create. So there’s that one, or with people. People tend to think, you know, maybe they want to talk to a guy working out in the melon fields in Arizona.

But how the heck do you do that on your own? But as a tour operator, we can facilitate those things. We can create those connections.

Dr. Suzy Ross (53:07)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (53:08)
Probably the simplest idea that comes to mind, and I’m curious what you think, is just like usually when you’re on some type of trip, there’s a tour leader, there’s guides around. And sometimes what happens is at dinner time the the guide or the tour leader just kind of disappears. You know, he gets everybody sat down, they start eating and

He kind of leaves and lets them have their conversation with the group, but what if that guy stuck around and had that conversation that that is inevitable when they do stick around of, you know, let’s call him Sergio. Hey Sergio, what you know, how did you get into this? What were you doing? What was it like growing up in Colombia? Or what was it like when you worked in the the the police force in Bogota during the day when Pablo Escobar was around and all that stuff?

You can have those fascinating conversations and it’s all you gotta do is keep your tour guide or your tour leader around to have those conversations. I think that’s a huge one that I think a lot of people just kinda miss. That’s such an easy one too, ’cause you’ve already paid the guy to be there.

Dr. Suzy Ross (54:11)
Yep, yep, exactly. Those are critical because if we don’t do those types of things, we’re going to, the recidivism rate just goes up exponentially when

Jason (54:23)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (54:23)
we have, when we make sure that we can have authentic human interchange, especially with someone that is the guide or people in the location wherever you are. But the other thing is, is it could be very unassuming.

Like, so for example, at Surf Synergy, they’re going to integrate like something, this technique. And it’s very simple. So they’re all on the beach at the beginning of the day. Everybody’s doing stretches, of in a line or in a circle. They’re stretching their body, getting ready for the ocean. And they might say, OK, what’s your word for the day? You know?

And everyone just identifies the word for the day. What’s your word for today? And then just pick a random word, whatever comes to mind, what’s your word for today? And everybody says their word for today. And then when everybody’s finished and everyone’s been surfing for, I don’t know, let’s say two hours or two and a half hours, and everyone comes back on the shore and you’re getting, you know, everyone’s getting some electrolytes and some water and toiling off.

And while they’re doing that, the guides circle everyone up and say, what’s your word now? Everyone’s,

Jason (55:39)
Mm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (55:40)
your word at the beginning of the day, say your word at beginning of the day. And now what’s your word as we get into the vans and go back and have breakfast? What’s your word now? And everybody says a word. So it doesn’t have to be super woo woo. No, it could be as simple as that. So that allows for it.

Jason (55:58)
Is is the idea that I

love that idea and is the idea that to see if they remembered their word or is it they come up with a new word or it can be the same word? ‘Cause I I hear and I I sense on the integrate part, integrating it with your experience and and all that. But help me understand. Was that

Dr. Suzy Ross (56:17)
Yeah. So if I mentioned earlier, if people haven’t read the recently published book, Transformation Economy by Joe Pine, P-I-N-E, I highly suggest you do so. His first book, Experience Economy, is sold, I don’t know, hundreds of thousands of books, don’t know, a million, I don’t know. But it’s known all over the world. It was published in the 90s. And then now, you know, so many around the world have been waiting for the Transformation Economy.

And in that book, he explains that reflection increases the value of your product. Like, I don’t know how many fold, but I don’t remember what he says, but let’s just say it at least double 4X is my guess. Reflection is something we’re not used to, but if you can get your client, your guest to reflect even one word.

a reflection that causes one word as an outcome. That’s going to increase the value of your product, of your service. But it’s even more than that because when you ask your client to reflect, you’re increasing the value retrospectively. So even after the experience happens, you’re going to increase value. So, well, I guess that’s what it is, is after, that’s what reflection is. But

But and that’s one of our goals as a business is to increase the value. the the you know if the customer finds it increased, how can you increase the value what you already created? Ask them to reflect.

Jason (57:52)
And it could be, geez, I love this. And we might think we asked them to reflect when we ask them to fill out a questionnaire or review, like, well, please write a review or fill out the questionnaire, which I guess that is reflection. But I suspect some questions are better than others for that. And the question that popped into my head was because usually when people start an experience, like let’s say you’re going surfing for the first time, you might at the end of the day or at the end of the outing say, What surprised you the most?

Let’s just real quick, let’s just go around the group. So based

Dr. Suzy Ross (58:24)
Exactly.

Jason (58:24)
on how you felt this morning to how you feel now, what surprised you the most? And somebody

Dr. Suzy Ross (58:29)
Yep.

Jason (58:29)
might say it was harder than I thought, it was easier than I thought, it was the water was colder than I thought it would be. What it could be that simple is what you’re saying. I love it.

Dr. Suzy Ross (58:37)
Yes, yes. Yeah, and it doesn’t, and in that way, it’s

not sounding woo, you know, what surprised you about today? Yes, yes, yes. Exactly, exactly. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Because any

Jason (58:43)
Yeah. Not like what childhood memory did this bring up for you Just what surprised you. Yeah. Okay.

Dr. Suzy Ross (58:53)
time we reflect and share, there’s so many things that go on. And a really critical part is, is that in the sharing part, other people get validated.

Other people hear things they didn’t think of before. They feel more connected to each other. And that is creating the possibility of return customers, all of it.

Jason (59:15)
It’s in this stuff, there’s so much carry over to everything in life. And I because I’m also what I’m thinking is like with a child, you know, when you see your kid at the end of the day, maybe you pick them up at school and they get in the car and hey buddy, what was your favorite thing that happened today? You know, or whatever,

Dr. Suzy Ross (59:32)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (59:33)
because that it both causes them to reflect and and it could be negative. He might be while the kids were picking on me, okay, or whatever. It creates the conversation. There’s the reflection, but then there’s also the shared part of it.

‘Cause if you wanna be a good parent, you need to connect with your kids that way. And if you wanna be a good tour operator, you probably wanna connect with your clients that way through reflection. I I love it. That’s really cool.

Dr. Suzy Ross (59:53)
Exactly. Yes.

And not only do you want to connect with your client and build that sort of real authentic bond with your client, but you want that to happen with your client to client. Because that causes exponential outcomes because

Jason (1:00:09)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:00:09)
there’s only one guide, let’s say, and

Jason (1:00:11)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:00:11)
like 10 people in the group, whatever. But if you have the people connect to each other and you exponentially increase the connection.

Jason (1:00:22)
wonder, guides are guides and guides generally if you know, if they’ve they’re around the world a while, they’re probably pretty good at connecting people, but there also is sometimes that anybody that’s been on a group trip recognizes there’s the guide to let’s say clients, guests, whatever word you want to use, there’s that relationship and then there’s the the guest to guest relationship and experience. I

I almost wonder if you couldn’t like hire a gu a person to show up as a guest. Somebody that was very good at connecting people. And so

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:00:56)
Mm.

Jason (1:00:56)
you you’ve got a group a group of twelve and you’ve got your trip leader and then you’ve got this person that shows up as a as a guest. And I’m just thinking out loud here. And that person is is that type of person that’s like wants to hear everybody’s story. where are you guys from? I knew somebody, da-da-da-da. You know, that that is like facilitates the connection.

without the the appearance of it’s just a guide just trying to do his job. I don’t know. I’ve never heard of anybody doing that, but it seems like it might be a good idea. I just throw that out there.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:01:25)
huh. Yeah, I’ve definitely never heard of that. I definitely, I mean,

I think it has utility for sure. But

Jason (1:01:31)
Yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:01:32)
I also think you can do it like in other ways. So one of my favorite techniques is, strategies is at the table having like a slate, like a stone slate that’s like hanging from something. So it looks really nice, for example. And on the stone slate is a question.

Jason (1:01:52)
Mm, okay. Yep.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:01:52)
And again,

so that people could take it or leave it. Some people might like that and then they might run with it. Like it’s a question that provokes conversation, reflection and that kind of thing. And some people will take it, some people will leave it. But having some passive ways.

Jason (1:02:07)
Cause you don’t even you don’t even have

yeah, you don’t have to say, Here’s the question of the day, discuss amongst yourselves. It’s not like you’re going to an official meetup or meet and greet

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:02:14)
Yep. Mm-hmm.

Jason (1:02:16)
or language exchange. But you just it’s kind of yeah, you just kinda plant the the

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:02:20)
Yep. Yes.

Jason (1:02:22)
idea ’cause people sit down most most people when you sit down with a group of people that you don’t know that well, you’re kinda like trying to think of okay, what are we gonna talk about?

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:02:31)
Yes, that’s a big problem, right?

Jason (1:02:35)
And if you look over to the left and there’s a a stone tablet with a question on it, obviously somebody

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:02:38)
Yes. Yes.

Jason (1:02:40)
at the table is gonna say, that’s an interesting question. What do you think? I love it. That’s a really good idea.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:02:43)
Yes, exactly. Yep. Yep. That’s a fun technique.

And then there are games, you know, there’s like, there you could have little question cards on the table and people can

Jason (1:02:54)
Those are good. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:02:55)
pick up a question card. But then there’s also something like, you know, for lack of a better, like a whiteboard or a chalk, chalkboard, where people when they’re coming in or out to go on their adventure.

It’s like, leave a note about your adventure so that people can write on the board about something about their adventure, something they want to share. Share a story of your adventure. Share a moment from your adventure. What was a highlight of your adventure? So that all of a sudden the board starts populating and then people start sitting there and reading it. People might start talking to each other about

and then start looking at or draw a picture of your adventure, whatever. You know, that’s

Jason (1:03:39)
Yeah,

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:03:40)
that kind of thing.

Jason (1:03:41)
I I visualized and I think this is what you’re saying, but it’s it’s a fascinating idea. but like maybe it’s a lodge. Let’s say it’s a lodge on you know somewhere in Costa Rica and you’ve got eight couples staying there and couple one leaves and the person on the front counter is like, where are you guys so you guys are going to I don’t know, release turtles or something today. And yeah, we’re gonna go release turtles, and then you and the person actually walked walks over and they’ve got

Couple A up on the board and they say, they’re going to do turtles or whatever, right? Just some little ing interaction. And then when they get back at the day, it’s like, so tell me, what was your favorite part of the turtles? Like the

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:04:17)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (1:04:18)
the person working there already knows where they went, right? But just I’ll tell you, because I’ve been to enough places. If I get up in the morning and I go meet my guide out front and I leave, and then I come back at the end of the day and I come inside and

Nobody at the lodge acknowledges where I’ve been or how my day was or whatever. It’s a totally different experience than when I show up at the lodge at the end of the day and somebody meets me out front with, you know, just something as simple as a hot towel, hot wet towel or whatever, because they know I’ve been out in the dirt all day and they say, my gosh, tell me about the turtles. Cause I used I managed to lodge in Belize. My job was to go down to the boat dock at the end of every day and meet the anglers as they came back.

my gosh, tell me about the fishing every day. And it I think it just makes such a huge difference and it’s not generally it doesn’t require hiring a new person, just re reorganizing things. ‘Cause you’re causing to reflect on the day. Like you said, right. Yep, yep.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:05:09)
Yep. Yep. Exactly. Yes, exactly. So, so,

so right now with the folks, the surf synergy company, you know, they’ll probably they might, they’re probably going to hire what we’re going to call like the integration specialist. But then the rest of the people are not going to be new hires. It’s going to be about the rest of the staff learning to be what we’re calling. Yeah.

Jason (1:05:33)
How to ask a question. What was your word

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:05:35)
We’re

Jason (1:05:35)
today?

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:05:37)
calling them integration ambassadors. So that’s

Jason (1:05:39)
I mean

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:05:41)
what the service energy wants to call them. And so they then get trained in being able to understand transformation integration and how they can help support people simply by making these connections that are simple.

Jason (1:05:54)
Yeah,

’cause it it could be down to the server at the end of the day putting dinner in front of says, you know, tell what was your word today? You know. All right. That’s that’s pretty

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:06:03)
Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jason (1:06:06)
cool. This all started with give me the sixty second elevator pitch for integrate. what do you do exactly? And I knew it was

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:06:10)
I know. Right?

Jason (1:06:13)
it was a much deeper conversation. And I suspect we’ll still discuss a little bit more, but I was I also want to make sure we don’t miss the

That part of the conversation with you. Suzy, holy crap, how did you get into

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:06:24)
No.

Jason (1:06:24)
this? What, you know? So let’s go back and figure out kind of what was little Suzy doing when you were, you know, eight, nine, ten, eleven, you know, if I had a time machine and I was there and asked you, Suzy, what do you want to do when you grow up? That type of thing. So let’s how far back do we need to go into your life to kind of get a feel for what caused this to happen? So you and I here are having this conversation today.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:06:48)
Yeah, that’s super fun. I mean, I think a through line is play and nature. My parents, I grew up in Madison, Wisconsin, my background had lot of things I could do. There were lots of different play equipment.

that my parents purchased like a little wheel go round and this structure we called the TV tower that I could climb up and make things and there was like a jungle gym. Yeah, we did. There was a little

Jason (1:07:14)
wow. You had a whole park you had a whole park in your yard backyard. Okay.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:07:18)
jungle gym. There was like hippity hops. I learned about, I learned how to walk on stilts. You know, there was just always something to play with and my parents really valued that. And then they valued travel, like in the car going on.

longer road trips around the country to historical places. And so my parents really valued play, learning through travel and nature. And yeah, I did. had two siblings.

Jason (1:07:45)
Do have siblings? I’m guessing so with all

this the playground stuff in the backyard. I mean it’d be nice to have that for okay.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:07:50)
Yeah, yeah, it was I had two siblings

for sure. And then I had the neighborhood kids and that sort of thing. But I think those that value those values helped me to be able to value play value learning.

Jason (1:08:05)
Where do you think your parents got those values?

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:08:08)
You know, I think my mom was a teacher. And I don’t really know.

where they got it. My mom really wanted us to travel, so she was a major component. But I think, I don’t know, they just created a great little play, like a little haven where all the little kids would come from the neighborhood and we’d play. But I think play is a powerful medicine for our body, mind, spirit. And then as I grew up when I led backpacking trips in Colorado,

I had a life-changing experience. I was like 21 years old and just had this powerful life-changing experience in wilderness, unbeknownst to me. And that really informed me wanting to study transformation, specifically in nature.

Jason (1:08:56)
Suzy, yeah.

What did you know, as as deep as you’re willing to go, I’d love to hear more about that life changing experience. We’ve been having conversation

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:09:04)
Yeah.

Jason (1:09:05)
the whole time about transformation and integration. So it’s it’s kind of making sense. but what can what are you willing to share with us about your life changing experience?

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:09:09)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I

hate this, Sarah, because it’s woo. It’s a woo story. And but it’s true. mean, yeah, I was living in Colorado for three months. I was only 21. I was the backpacking director. I had an assistant and we were leading, you know, maybe 10 teenagers at a time, one week at a time.

It was the end of the summer. I’m getting ready to go back to college. And it was the last week of living in my sleeping bag with no tent, et cetera. And I had this life changing. It was like a transcendental experience, basically, where I wasn’t on like any psychedelic medicine or anything like that. I was a clean kid. yeah, I just woke up one morning. The elk, hundreds of elk went.

rumbling past us. We were at tree line between two sizable mountains. We packed up all our stuff, left the place better than we found it. We hiked over the top of a saddle between two peaks. We’re on the Breckenridge Range. We’re walking on the spine of the mountains. I could see as far as I could see in both directions. I was at the end of the group.

And so all the kids were in front of me. I was carrying like, you know, a 40-pound pack at least. And then I had the surprise where I’m been out to me. I had an out-of-body experience. I experienced everything in the universe simultaneously, like what it was like to be a molecule of grass or something floating in the wind or something in a faraway galaxy or…

You know, for real, it sounds weird, but it really happened. And it felt really normal. The experience lasted for about half an hour because I’ve studied Google Maps since to trace out where I walked when it happened. And I started coming back into my body when we were coming down the mountain. And there was a huge storm system coming towards us. And I was like, dear God, I…

I don’t want it to rain. It’s been raining for a week straight and I’m tired of being cold and wet. And then a nanosecond later wasn’t even using a thought. I was like, huh, I am that cloud. Like, if I don’t want the cloud, I can just move the cloud. Yeah,

Jason (1:11:26)
You can change it. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:11:28)
and it was not a stream of thought, right? It was like without conscious thought, right? But that’s kind of the nano, what was going

Jason (1:11:34)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:11:35)
on. And I was still like,

hard out of my body, still in my body, like in between somewhere. And so I just moved the cloud and then the sun showed where we were and then there were rainbows all around us because it was raining all around us, but not on us. And when that happened, I was enough in my body to know, holy crap, like,

I just started weeping because literally it was like, I just moved the cloud and then a move cloud moved. And then it, and I was like, my God, it is, this is really real. And so I just wept the whole way down the mountain cause I was beside myself. And then the only thing that could help me cause it was almost painful. this song came to me, which wasn’t a big song in my life, but the song, amazing grace.

came into me and then I just started singing it quietly to myself. And that’s what helped me to tolerate the awesomeness of what I was experiencing and had experienced. And after that, you know, that, you know, that happened in 1991. And then I started, I started my research and…

Jason (1:12:49)
Wow. Thank you. Hold hold on. Before you go any further, hold

on. Let’s acknowledge the moment. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah,

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:12:56)
Yes.

Jason (1:12:57)
that’s it’s that’s powerful. I felt that, you know, i in my spine. yeah, thank you. That’s and if you don’t mind, I like what I heard was you were still walking up the trail. You were having this experience

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:13:10)
Totally.

Jason (1:13:11)
and the the teenagers,

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:13:12)
completely.

Jason (1:13:13)
the people in front of you

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:13:14)
They had no idea. To this day, none

Jason (1:13:15)
Had no idea.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:13:17)
of them know what happened.

Jason (1:13:19)
I hope one of I hope someone is listening to this podcast though they will hear that. But

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:13:21)
No. Yeah, yeah, nobody,

nobody knew and I didn’t talk about it either. Right. Because I’m like, how do you even start talking about it? You know?

Jason (1:13:31)
Yeah, no, I

I I get that. It’s a it’s a very personal thing and that’s why I’m saying thank you for sharing it because regardless of what anybody else thinks happened, whatever, that was your experience of the of the moment and that’s powerful. And obviously it’s kind of like based on the conversation we’ve been having for the last hour and fifteen minutes, I I recognize, Okay, yeah, you probably needed something like that to happen in order for you to go into the you know, so when I say

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:13:58)
Thank you.

Jason (1:13:58)
how did you get from where you were to where you are now

I think you just shared a huge part of it, right? and I’m curious though,

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:14:01)
You’re right. Yeah, right.

Jason (1:14:05)
was this your had you worked that job in previous summers or was this the first summer out for you doing that type of work or that job?

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:14:16)
Yeah, I mean, I’ve been in Girl Scouts and, you know, different things like that so that I went, you know, used to go up to the out, boundary waters in northern Minnesota

Jason (1:14:26)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:14:28)
and go in deep into the wilderness with, led by this amazing teacher and it was all girls trips and I had different immersive experiences like that. But I don’t even remember your question.

Jason (1:14:37)
This was your first time leading

but this was your first time leading people in the mountains in Colorado type of thing.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:14:39)
Yeah. Leading backpacking. Yes, I’d never done

that before for sure. I was into ropes courses and I was a guide for ropes courses and those kinds of things, facilitator, but I’d never done that before. And honestly, yeah, I did it since, but that was my first time. Ironically, the summer before the backpacking, I worked at Walt Disney World in Florida. So

Jason (1:15:02)
okay. All right.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:15:04)
talk about diverse experiences, but yeah, I was.

Jason (1:15:06)
That’s

super cool. But but let me ask you,

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:15:07)
It was…

Jason (1:15:09)
was was this the last yeah, I think you said it was the last week. Was it the last day of the last week of of of that summer?

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:15:16)
Yeah, it was

pretty much the last day of the last trip of my, and I think what, because I’ve thought about it many times, right? Like, because why did this happen to me? You know,

Jason (1:15:25)
I’m sure you have. huh.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:15:29)
I’m not an overly religious person. I’m actually quite frankly, wasn’t a religious person. And so it’s not like I was seeking something like that, or that I was religious or anything. It just happened to me. And I’m like, why did it happen to me?

And the only thing I can think of is that I was so deeply immersed in living in the wilderness, like three months living in there with,

Jason (1:15:53)
Yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:15:54)
you know, and I think that did something to my psyche that allowed me to be open, I guess. I don’t

Jason (1:16:00)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:16:01)
know, guess I just got lucky, I guess.

Jason (1:16:04)
It kind of makes sense, you know, without the it’s woo woo whatever, but it make it to me it makes sense that what happened the last trip, the last day, the last trip where it’s this is a series of

I guess the novelty experiences, the those moments kind of building up. And if it was gonna happen, it had to happen that day, because if it didn’t happen that day, I think you would have missed the moment. Right. And if it

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:16:27)
It wasn’t gonna happen. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jason (1:16:30)
had and if this if you described the same experience to me and said it was, you know, two weeks into a three-month summer, we could we could probably attach different meaning to it. But it’s yours it’s your story. So you get to attach the meaning.

And obviously, but it ties very well in with the whole conversation we’ve been having, obviously. All right. So

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:16:50)
Yeah.

Jason (1:16:51)
on how long after that moment did you decide I want to study this and figure this out and and see how I can maybe share it with other people? I don’t know what the motivation was.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:16:58)
Yeah, was a

decade later. It was about 2000 that I started. In 2000, was like, have to go through transformation. I

Jason (1:17:09)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:17:09)
was like, I know that I have to go through a massive transformation process to become my destiny. And so I started researching what is going to be big enough to do that.

was become a mom, have a baby. And I’m like, yeah, no. Okay, that’s not going to work. that, that, I’m like, yeah, that does. I’m not doing that. So then, so that was easy. No. Okay, then the next question was a traditional rite of passage. I need to find a true elder who can bring me through a rite of passage, an authentic one in my own lineage.

you know, Irish, Norwegian, Scottish, I need to find a true elder of my own lineage to guide me through a true rite of passage to become my destiny of who I’m meant to be in this life. And so I searched them out and I tried to find, but I never found an elder that I didn’t find one. And then the third option was what Maledoma Somme

author and elder from West Africa, the Dagara people, Malodoma Sone explained that the first thing you need to do is to go through the rite of passage of your predominant culture, not necessarily my ancestry culture, but like the United States. Like that’s where I’m from.

Etc and go through the highest rite of passage of that dominant culture. Okay, so when I looked at that I’m like, well, what is that? Well one of them arguably Yes arguably

Jason (1:18:47)
I’m I can’t wait for you to tell me ’cause I’m trying to imagine. What what is it?

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:18:51)
in my upon Analysis arguably one of those is a PhD because in in ancient ways, right the elder becomes the wise one well how

a mechanism of modern Western culture to become a quote unquote knowledgeable one is a PhD process. Now it’s questionable if that process could ever produce a wise one because it’s probably broken on some level. But I obviously decided that the third one was the one that I needed to do. then I started the PhD in 2002 and I finished in 2008.

And no surprise, I studied how does a human being integrate a life-changing experience if it is even possible? And then, of course, what’s going on in a deeper level is I’m trying to integrate my 1991. I’m trying to integrate

Jason (1:19:46)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, of course you are.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:19:49)
it. I’m trying to like, and honestly, I feel like it was such a big experience.

that certainly the 15 years, the 20 years it took from 1991 to about 2011, it took to integrate. But now is the next layer of integration. So I’ve been integrating the next layer since about 2010. So the last 17 years and I think I’m going to complete this cycle in about three years.

Jason (1:20:22)
Wow. Very cool. I’m I want to acknowledge you, I’m happy that you decided maybe not to go be an army green beret or navy SEAL or what

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:20:29)
Yeah

Jason (1:20:31)
’cause some people might say that’s a rite of passage for, you know, some people. There’s a lot of there’s a few. but you’re right.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:20:33)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Agreed.

Jason (1:20:39)
just gaining that that knowledge and figuring out how do I take this thing that almost the fact that you said woo woo i is

kind of the like how do I make it make sense, right? It’s like some the thing is nobody else needs to get it, but how do I make it make sense for myself? And I it sounds like that’s kind of what you went to do. And that’s a whole that we could probably have 15 more conversations before I even get my head partially around what you’re saying. but it’s very cool. So what did so what was what do you call the field of study? Like I have a PhD in what is it called?

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:21:16)
Right. So my PhD is in transformative learning.

Jason (1:21:19)
Okay, makes sense.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:21:20)
So I studied transformative learning literature. Jack Mezzarro is really getting very popular in tourism and travel because transformation is now taking hold. And so my PhD is in transformative learning to learn where through experiences that help us to transform basically.

Jason (1:21:42)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:21:43)
And so yeah, that’s the PhD. But I would say, you know, really, I’m a scholar of transformation science. That’s what I would say.

Jason (1:21:51)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And I love one the one thing I really enjoy about you, Suzy, is

Some people, okay, I’m very spiritual and transformation and if you want to transform people’s lives, you gotta sit down and think about the energy and the universe and all this stuff. And that’s fine for some people. You know, some people are definitely on board with that.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:22:09)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (1:22:10)
But a lot of the conversation we’ve been having is simple things like, Hey, what’s your word today? You know,

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:22:14)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason (1:22:16)
or hey, we’re gonna go hug a cow, you know, to to create change in people’s lives without honestly without kind of shoving it down the

throat or you know,

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:22:27)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (1:22:27)
sticking it in their face because y you and I both know as soon as I say this is the way and you need to accept that this is the way to transformation, you’re gonna shut a lot of people down. And

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:22:37)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

There’s one lady that I interviewed, she was in her 90s, and she’s transformed four times in her life. And she didn’t have any idea she was going through transformation. She wasn’t seeking transformation. She wasn’t going to meditation. She didn’t even probably read a psychology book. know, none of this is happening, right? But she was a courageous woman. She was a woman who tried new things.

She was a woman who, you know, I don’t know if she reflected, but she transformed four times.

Jason (1:23:08)
It’s very, very cool. And I I suspect there are people like her, obviously.

Say, well, there I’m sure there’s people that have not transformed. I don’t know. I’ve I in my mind I kind of feel like we all are transforming, like you said, at any given time. I remember the well, I don’t I I say like I remember the book. My favorite book is The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho, which to me is a story of transformation, not a super and you know, deep intellectual book, I guess, from what I’ve heard some people say, but it resonates with me. and I’ve been on my my digital nomad quest for the last five years and

I’m reflecting on it now because after five years, I’m back in Arizona where I started five years ago, trying to decide, well, am I gonna keep going? Or am I at the point? Am I have I done that Paolo Coelo alchemist loop where I went to the pyramids and looked for my treasure and realized, geez, maybe I didn’t ha well, I can say maybe I didn’t have to go there to look for my treasure because it was back in Andalusia and Spain or whatever. but I did have to go.

To the pyramids to figure it out type of thing. So you and I are having this conversation at a a a a pinnacle point for me where I’m thinking transformation is probably happening as we speak.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:24:18)
Yeah.

Jason (1:24:18)
so thank you.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:24:21)
I would say you’re integrating because

Jason (1:24:23)
Okay, yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:24:24)
your own inner impulse to come back to Arizona, to come back to, you know, literally to family is an impulse of your own desire where you’re bringing yourself back to you. Like we go out on that journey and we’re seeking something that’s missing and that missing thing is our future self.

And when you have the impulse, you follow that impulse to come home, to follow the impulse to something with its less movement that is more, that does ask you and it’s more conducive to be inside of you. That that is the integration impulse.

Jason (1:25:10)
Mm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:25:11)
It’s happening to you. You’re following the impulse and that will lead you to eventually

to your own wholeness, to your becoming a version of yourself that you know that you want. And it’s just an inevitability

Jason (1:25:27)
It it’s

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:25:29)
because for a great part, it’s an organic process.

Jason (1:25:35)
Yeah, I I appreciate that because it it feels uncomfortable, but there’s there’s a draw. We’ll see. You know, I’m sitting here saying this now and who knows, three weeks from now I could get restless and anxious and buy a one way ticket and go and go on to the next place. So I don’t know what’s gonna happen. But I’ve definitely noticed it’s as the five year and I don’t know why I don’t remember if at any point in the past when I started this, if I had the number five in my head, I probably did. I don’t recognize it.

Maybe I was like, I’m gonna do this for at least five years. I don’t know. I just noticed that as the five year mark approaches, I’m like, I’m actually open to the idea of of slowing down and maybe integrating, right? even though it feels weird. Like I feel like I can’t believe I’m thinking about sticking around here. Maybe my family’s

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:26:22)
This is it.

Jason (1:26:23)
gonna hear this. Maybe I’ll have to edit that out later, but anyway.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:26:25)
Yeah, right. Uh-huh. But that’s a sign right there,

just your words. I don’t believe that I actually have this feeling. And that’s because that new you is starting to emerge that actually wants something different than the past you. And that’s why it feels so weird because you’re like, is this really me? You’re like, this isn’t really me. But the truth

Jason (1:26:48)
This is yeah. I

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:26:50)
is, is that who is me, right?

The new you actually wants something that’s different than the past you, that you’ve outgrown.

Jason (1:27:00)
Yeah. The past me, the fifty-three year me, is has always been don’t slow me down, I want to go have an adventure. You know, I went off to to to college the first time as a music and theater major and I ended up I gotta go have an adventure, so I dropped out to go join the army to be a paratrooper. You know? I met a woman in the army, I said, Hey, don’t get too attached. As soon as I’m out of the army, I’m buying a motorcycle, I’m going. And we we got attached for a few.

Few years and I have a wonderful daughter as a result. No, you know, no hard feelings. And the next one was like, Hey, I’m gonna go travel the world. Then so I’ve always been focused and thinking I need to go. And now for the first time in my life, I’m like, maybe I need to stay. And not because I’ve fallen in love, or not because somebody’s pregnant, or not because my family needs me to stay, but I’m actually like, maybe I

could actually just stay on my own and feel good about it and not it still freaks me out a little bit. I’m not gonna lie. But anyway, you and I should we should book another call so you can help me work through some of this shit.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:27:57)
Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Uh-huh. Yep. What I

would say is, if I was a betting person, I would guess that you’re in the phase of transfer integration, that figure eight, called surrender and healing, where at

Jason (1:28:15)
Yeah, maybe. Yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:28:17)
some point, probably a couple years ago, you made that key, bold decision to come back.

Jason (1:28:25)
Yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:28:25)
And then there

might have been yet another decision that’s happened relatively during that time where you had to make a choice that involved choosing you. And maybe that was the choice of coming back to Arizona, but there is a key choice of you choosing yourself in a way that you have never done your whole life. And when you do that, you enter into the surrender and healing phase where

where little nuances about your life are like kind of a breath of fresh air, like soothing, where it’s like,

Jason (1:29:02)
Yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:29:03)
that’s kind of nice. I’ve always kind of wanted that. I’ve always, know, something about that feels, you know, like a warm cup of soup on a cold day.

Jason (1:29:12)
It’s yeah,

it’s just like the restlessness is starting to just kind of mellow out a little bit. Or I’m mellowing out. you know how sometimes you’re on a Zoom call at a work business call and they and a really fascinating conversation starts up and and someone says, Let’s take this offline You you and

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:29:30)
I do.

Jason (1:29:31)
I need to keep chatting for sure. I I appreciate that. And

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:29:34)
Thank you.

Jason (1:29:36)
feeling a little uncomfortable here, getting t a little intimate.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:29:39)
Yeah, right. It’s going to make

Jason (1:29:40)
all right.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:29:41)
a difference for other people though, because it’s not just you. Like there’s this deep

Jason (1:29:44)
Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:29:47)
restlessness in the West and that integration causes us, our life circumstances causes us to have to, that restlessness to start to settle exactly what’s happening for you. And that restlessness is only going to continue to dissipate.

And so that you can literally arrive, like the new you can literally arrive as the restlessness dissipates. And you almost don’t even have to do anything. You did the hard work already. And now you can just, you

Jason (1:30:20)
good. I’m happy to hear that.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:30:21)
don’t even have to do anything different than what you’re already doing because the restlessness is dissipating because you already made the key choice to come to be where you are right now.

Jason (1:30:31)
Yeah, yeah. And I I do suspect that like just the nature of the conversations we have here on this show and the people that listen to it. I’m sure there’s probably a pretty good chunk of our our listenership can relate to this. Either they’re feeling real restless right now or they’ve been through something like this or something like what you’ve experienced and so I do think it’s relevant. So I will leave it. I’m not gonna cut this out.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:30:54)
Haha!

Jason (1:30:56)
Suzy, I we talked a lot about

kind of what you’ve done, what you’ve learned, a bit about your story. I as I mentioned before, we could probably and you and I probably will continue to have conversations. But I w I’m curious, ’cause I’m sure we missed some stuff. So I just want to ask you this way. What do you wish I would have asked you? What or what do you what do you want to make sure to share with our listeners before we wrap up, I guess is what I’m trying to say.

‘Cause we just spent the last ten minutes working on me, so thank you for that.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:31:24)
Well, I think it’s really relevant

because, like, so for example, for me, I was, I’m now in the phase of abundance, the phase called abundance and creativity. So if we’re looking at the figure eight, you’re almost to the lowest part of the eight. Lowest doesn’t mean the worst. You’ve already been through the worst. The worst is behind you

Jason (1:31:42)
Okay. All right.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:31:44)
when you’re in surrender healing. Dismemberment?

The word, that’s the hardest phase. That’s where the outdated self dissolves. The old you, the self that is ready to dissolve.

Jason (1:31:57)
And you think that part’s

probably the step right before where you think I’m at now? That sounds about right. I would describe I would use the word dismemberment. That’s what it felt like. interesting.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:32:01)
Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, exactly.

in the recent past, you went through a really difficult time. And you went through, and I’m not being a psychic, it’s just looking at the science, right? The science of, yeah, it feels like psychic, that’s why I want to say it.

Jason (1:32:20)
Feels like you’re but Yeah,

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:32:26)
But the science is very clear. It’s even grounded in a Nobel laureate physics. So if you look at the figure eight, it maps onto Prego Green’s Nobel Prize winning physics on dissipative structures. So this is not Wu. It sounds Wu, but it is grounded in the natural sciences, et cetera. Yeah, yeah. Because Wu is super annoying.

Jason (1:32:48)
I love that you know it sounds woo. I love that some people talk like that

and never would even acknowledge it, get offended if I said it sounded woo woo. But yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:32:54)
Yeah, it’s not

helpful because at this point what we really need is science to help us to know what the heck to do in this complex world. so coming back to the figure eight, I know this, right? I’ve been studying it for 25 years now so that I can tell pretty darn quickly that you’re in the surrender healing phase, which is phase nine.

Phase eight, which precedes it, is dismemberment, where the identity dissolves. so, you know, the old you is definitely gone through the difficult dark time that you went through. Now, it’s a brighter time. It’s brighter, it’s lighter, life is easier than it was during, you know, your recent dark time. And people are coming, opportunities are coming that are really like…

this is breath of fresh air. wish I would have had this a long time ago. But then at the bottom of the figure eight, the lowest part of the eight is the birth phase. That’s when the new you actually arrives. When you have a circumstance in your life where you have to step into something that feels uncomfortable, but you’re the best person for the moment. And other people see you for your knowledge, for who you’ve become.

And that’s it’s nuanced, but it’s when the new you arrives. OK, that’s that you’d have to read

Jason (1:34:13)
Very cool.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:34:14)
my book. You’d have to read my book to get more. But where I am is right after that. I’m in the creativity abundance. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason (1:34:17)
Well well hey w while y while you mention that. Okay, I’m sorry, I just wanna

let’s mention the name of your book. You know, we’ll

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:34:26)
yeah.

Jason (1:34:27)
we’ll have some information. People will be able to find it in the show notes as well, but let’s let’s get that on the record.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:34:32)
Yeah, the name of my book is The Map to Wholeness, Finding Yourself Through Crisis, Change and Reinvention, Real Life Stories of the 13 Phases of Transformation. And that’s what the 8 is. The 8 is a map that basically walks you through, like, if you don’t know where you’re going when you’re hiking in the wilderness, it’s helpful to have the map.

Same thing with transformation. And now after, you know, I studied 15 disciplines of literature to understand transformation from every angle, including physics, natural sciences, et cetera. And it’s very clear, what came out of the data was that the transformation happens through 13 phases, very clear, identifiable, distinct phases.

that it happens in a figure eight motion. for me personally, I’m in phase 11 now, which is creativity and abundance. And so what’s happening? What does that mean? It means that I’m getting opportunities that I’ve been waiting for and working hard to get. I’ve been working for 20 years to get to this, right?

Jason (1:35:39)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:35:40)
Like the right people.

that can open the doors that I need. I’m like meeting them, know, serendipitously through synchronicity. I have more money than I’ve had before so that that way I can invest into my business. I’m meeting people around the world who I resonate with, who I can partner with.

And just door after door after door is opening to me to help me to fulfill my dream, which is in my purpose, which is to teach and train people about transformation integration. And everything’s kind of falling into place. I’m getting really freaking busy. You know, I’m like working

Jason (1:36:21)
Yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:36:21)
seven days a week. Well, that’s totally normal in abundance and creativity phase because you’re getting all these things that you’ve been working hard to get, these opportunities.

And you can’t say no, because this what you’ve been

Jason (1:36:33)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:36:33)
working for. But in the next phase, after this, is the phase of power, phase 12. And that’s when life slows down. You have people and systems in place where you know what you’re talking about. You’ve figured it all out. People recognize you as the go-to person for what you’re really good at and who you are. You’re emblematically that. And it could be…

you know, that everybody in your neighborhood knows that you’re the expert on bees and beekeepers.

Jason (1:37:02)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:37:04)
But it’s more than your neighborhood. Like all sorts of people know that you are the leader in beekeeping and you love it, but you have all your systems in place. You’ve got all the, you know, you’ve got the website, you’ve got everything set so that all your beekeeping knowledge and resources can be made use of.

In the power phase, you get to go on vacation. And during

Jason (1:37:26)
wow.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:37:26)
the abundance in creativity, I’m not having any vacation right now. If I go on vacation, it’s for business. When you get to integration, which is phase 13, that is a shorter phase. it’s like, you know how when you come back from a powerful travel experience and you’re like, I feel different on the inside, but my whole life hasn’t changed?

I still have the same issues, the same people, the same problems, the same to-do list. You’re different on the inside, but your outside is not changed. But when you get to integration, that’s opposite. Your internal matches your external seamlessly. There is zero friction between who you have become on the inside, values, your thinking, how you like things, what your preferences are, what you’re good at.

what you like about your external, everything about your relationships, your house, your car, your money, your nutrition, every layer of your life matches who you are. And you didn’t force that to happen. It happened through an organic unfolding of integration, which is our destiny.

Jason (1:38:40)
I I I’m just curious what you thought because what you’re describing does not sound like something everybody

guess the question I want to ask you like well what percentage of people make it to level thirteen is this like you know I don’t know is this different levels it’s like achieving an enlightenment if you’re a Buddhist or whatever or

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:39:01)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (1:39:02)
is this I just help me get my head around that part of it. Is this something that because you kinda said it’s organic, just kind of happens, but it

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:39:08)
I think. Mm-hmm.

Jason (1:39:09)
doesn’t probably happen for everybody. I don’t know. What are your thoughts on that real

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:39:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. For real. transformation happens. There’s three forces. There’s three fundamental forces. There’s an organic force, force like the tree behind me. Organic forces cause that tree to unfold to become the palm tree behind

Jason (1:39:29)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:39:29)
me. So, nature, the force of nature. So, we are organic.

So transformation is happening to us the same as transformation is happening to the palm tree behind me because it went from seed into the tree, it transformed. So nature is an important force that causes us to transform. So we could all be completely unaware and transform. Just like the lady who was 90-something years old that I interviewed, she had no idea she was transforming to become her new self four different times across her lifetime. She didn’t know that was happening.

But it happened to her and she met the moment. when she was, when the moment asked her to be courageous, she did. She did the scary thing. And did she know that was happening? No. So, can’t, can’t.

Jason (1:40:15)
Does that mean does that mean

she hit level thirteen four times? Is that what okay. All right.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:40:18)
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

so it, because it isn’t a level, it’s a phase. So there are 13 phases to transformation. So, so for example, so she, she went through all 13 phases four times. How long does it take for a human to transform completely from a completely different human being like caterpillar to butterfly takes 15 years minimum. So

Jason (1:40:41)
wow.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:40:41)
people don’t like that, right? Because it’s like, my God, that’s a really long time. But

Jason (1:40:44)
That’s really slow in today’s modern

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:40:46)
That’s a really long freaking time. But if you think about it, right, we’re… Yeah,

Jason (1:40:47)
age. Can’t I just order it from Amazon and get it here in three days? Yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:40:53)
and yeah, it’s just not gonna happen, right? Because we… Your whole entire life has to be reorganized and that takes a long time. But, you know, you get to reap the reward. I mean, just think about across your life, like right now, you’re literally on the upswing of transformation.

Like, you’ve done the hard work. Yeah.

Jason (1:41:13)
I was doing the math in my head already. I was like, fifteen

years. I’m like, okay, where was I fifteen years ago and what was happening that that I could point to the beginning of it so I could figure out where I might yeah, okay.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:41:19)
Exactly. That’s right. So, uh-huh. Now you’re starting to read the map.

Okay. So if we’re starting to get into the gritty here, so if you’re in the surrender healing phase, that means you had a life-changing experience probably around 10 years ago. Yeah, about 10 years ago-ish.

Jason (1:41:38)
You’re you’re gonna freak me out here. yeah, ten years

ten years ago sounds really pretty spot on, yeah, I would think. Okay. Ooh. Enough of that. Let’s change the topic.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:41:47)
Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And again, it’s not, it’s not,

because think about it. It’s not, it’s not being psychic. Like, it’s not psychic for a doctor to say, hmm, you’re going to give birth in about nine months, you know? Or the lady doctor, you’re

Jason (1:42:02)
Hey, that’s a g yeah, that’s a good point.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:42:04)
going to give birth in nine months. And they’ll say, you’re psychic. And it’s like, no, that’s just modern medicine, you know? And like a thousand years ago or two thousand years ago, it might have been seen as psychic.

But now with modern medicine, we’re like, yeah, it’s all on schedule.

Jason (1:42:19)
All right.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:42:20)
You should be like, your water’s going to break and this is what’s going to happen. Really?

Jason (1:42:24)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:42:25)
my God, you’re psychic. No, it’s science. It’s the same thing, is that nobody has studied transformation. I mean, I’m just being truthful. I studied 15 disciplines and I’m telling you right now, there’s nothing that I could find that comes even close to the science that…

my doctoral research and since has come to, which is why I wrote the book,

Jason (1:42:44)
All right. Yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:42:46)
which is why I’m making a business because I have to disseminate this information because this is actually predictable human development. This is really what we’re talking about here is human development. If people want to really look at like, because it’s more than human development, right? It’s human evolution because

Transformation is evolution occurs when there is transformation.

Jason (1:43:17)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:43:19)
so what this is really, when we’re talking about transformation, not change, is humans developing to the point that we evolve into versions of ourselves that we could not have scarcely imagined previously.

Jason (1:43:37)
Very cool. Yeah, I’m I’m with you. I think this pretty, pretty interesting. definitely gonna read your book. yeah, it does sound a little woo-woo, but not so much. I mean, it’s like kind of makes sense. And well, I I say it sounds woo. I recognize that to some people it does. You already you can acknowledge that for sure. But you know what?

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:43:53)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jason (1:43:57)
There’s people that think the idea of the

The earth being round sounds crazy too. So

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:44:02)
Yeah, I mean, if we look at Jane Goodall, for example,

Jane Goodall, when she first started out, and I don’t know her life very well at all, but I’m imagining that before her life-changing experiences with powerful animals that are radically different than the West, before that massive life-changing experience, she became known around the world.

as this incredible leader, bringing these powerful animals and helping the world to get to know them and

Jason (1:44:36)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:44:36)
getting to know the cultures and the places and their beauty to us, the rest of the world. And so she became an icon of that. But is that the icon that she was when she died? No, because she evolved and transformed.

and became an icon of something even greater than that. That’s what happens when we transform, is that, you know, she had one transformation and became an icon for one thing. But the woman that passed away recently became an icon of something so much bigger, and that’s what happens when we transform. Could she have guessed that she was going to be that when she was young?

before she saw her experience her first gorillas and trampensies? No. She couldn’t have imagined any of it. But each time we go through an iteration of 15 to 20 years, we become something that we couldn’t have scarcely imagined. That’s not woo. It just happens. Look at any great leader in any discipline. They become something that they did not imagine previously.

Jason (1:45:50)
Never could have imagined.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:45:51)
Exactly.

Jason (1:45:52)
I never c I mean I I’m I’m not saying that I’m at at the thirteenth phase. I’m not even close. Right now, but I maybe went through one before, right? and I could have never imagined that I’d be sitting here having these fascinating conversations with fascinating people like you and I it and I it brings me so much joy. Thank you so much for being for being part of that. Cause that’s yeah, you and I and remember I

At the very beginning of the conversation, I’d mentioned that we took a 15-minute call to at least an hour when we first met. And now anybody that’s listening is like, I get it. I completely understand how these two could continue and have such a a long conversation because it’s just fascinating. You’re fascinating and super easy to chat with and feels a little psychic, but I I hear you. I’m I’m giving you a benefit of a doubt on how you know these things about me.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:46:40)
Yeah, this is definitely not. Yeah, it’s so like

I work with the the carol people Q E R O of the high Andes of Peru. I’ve been learning from them for 20 years and and brought people to, you know, transform travel down to Peru to experience the ancient sites of Inca with them. And I’ll never forget one time we brought them to Hawaii to do a training and and I had them get in my rental car.

the elder, you know?

Jason (1:47:10)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:47:10)
The rental car was like magic, you know? Everything about it was magical to him. You he didn’t know anything about it, right? But for us, that’s not magic. Our cell phone isn’t magic. Or maybe it is.

Jason (1:47:23)
Yep. That’s a good point.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:47:25)
But like, when you start to understand a new frontier of psychology, let’s say, a new frontier of evolution, let’s say,

Anytime we’re beyond our capacity to make sense of things, we interpret it as magical. But it’s not, right? Like,

Jason (1:47:44)
Yeah, you’re absolutely right.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:47:46)
if you take someone to transformative travel and to some very radically different place, it’s going to feel magical. But it’s not. It’s just a different part of the Earth. It’s like, so for example, Aurora Borealis, right? It’s like, if you’ve ever

Jason (1:48:00)
I love it. Yep. that’s a good one. Yep.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:48:04)
seen Aurora Borealis, it’s

a magical looking, it’s surreal, it’s otherworldly. Is that really like just particles and sun and light and stuff like that? It feels magical. But the truth is, it’s just particles and light and all these other things. It’s nothing actually magical going on whatsoever. It’s just that it’s new to you. And so your brain is trying to make sense of it.

Jason (1:48:27)
I you’re you’re absolutely right. Yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:48:31)
you know, all things that, you know, that’s why science is so critical. Because

If we don’t have science, the edge of our knowledge feels magical. And in fact, that’s one of the reasons why science is so much fun, because it’s about bringing something that feels magical into concrete reality. my gosh, this is just particles. This is just the ways that particles work.

Jason (1:48:56)
It’s it you make it sound it’s like

really kind of obvious the way you just described it. That was fascinating because even go back to, you know, pre Columbus times in Europe, people thought if they sailed too far they’d drop off the edge of the earth. And so anything and there were

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:49:09)
Yeah, exactly. Right.

Jason (1:49:13)
demons and dragons and devils and whatever on the other side and and as we explored

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:49:14)
Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jason (1:49:19)
and pushed the boundaries, look how much things have changed. some people would

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:49:22)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (1:49:22)
argue not for the better, but

I’ll let them you know, other people can decide that. So

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:49:26)
I mean, scientists

who push the edge are always seen as woo. Always. know, Einstein,

Jason (1:49:33)
yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:49:34)
you know, look at all of them. They’re all seen that way because people are like, you, this isn’t real.

Jason (1:49:42)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:49:43)
You know, and I’ll tell you, when I first started studying transformative travel in 2003,

The colleagues in my university department thought I was weird. They thought I was making stuff up. They thought I was, it wasn’t real science. They thought they made fun of me. And then in 2015, Transformative Travel was on the front page of Vogue magazine. And now Transformative

Jason (1:50:11)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:50:13)
Travel is one of the largest growing niches of travel and tourism industry, which is the largest industry in the world.

And all sorts

Jason (1:50:20)
yeah.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:50:21)
of people, when I say, I got my PhD in transformative learning, they’re like, that’s really interesting. But now all of tourism industry is reading Jack Mesereau and they want to know everything

Jason (1:50:33)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:50:33)
about transformative learning. Suddenly it’s not funny, it’s not weird. It’s all of a sudden the most important need to know information. So, I mean, I’m not saying this to like, pooh-poo, it’s just like more like, yeah, it’s just, I don’t know, I guess I, I’m…

hopefully not coming across sounding defensive. Maybe I am.

Jason (1:50:52)
No, well, I and I apologize if I said I acknowledge that to some people it might sound woo

you know, and that’s not a to me, woo woo woo does not mean wrong and accurate. It just means uncomfortable. Let’s call woo-woo uncomfortable. Right? It’s outside of my my my sphere

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:51:07)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Outside of known.

Jason (1:51:12)
of understanding right now. So it’s unc and and that is the way for everybody. Because you know what? If you take somebody that lived in

The Midwest their entire life, never been out of the country. The idea of going to Europe or some other place feels very uncomfortable. You could almost, you know, so it’s it’s the same thing conceptually, just considering ideas and things that we hadn’t thought about before. But you’re absolutely right. There’s a reason that I asked you to, you know, to come join me here on the show because I recognize that in my listenership in our industry, this is a a topic that’s a very interesting topic. And

And as I listen you, I’m like, I can think of tour operators I know that are really gonna enjoy this conversation. So thank you so much

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:51:55)
Mmm.

Jason (1:51:55)
for for joining me and making that happen. And I look forward to working and collaborating with you on some stuff in the future and probably having a few more calls to help me get to level thirteen might be worthwhile as well. So

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:52:07)
well you’re gonna make it, no problem.

All you have to do is get on the inner tube and just enjoy your life like you’re going down a little

Jason (1:52:14)
okay.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:52:15)
babbling brook because you actually did the hard work and all you have to do now is just enjoy, reap the rewards of your hard work. That’s all you have to do now.

Jason (1:52:23)
I l

I as you said that my body literally relaxed as like the inner tube thing was

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:52:28)
Mm-hmm. You’re good. You did it.

Jason (1:52:30)
like now everybody

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:52:33)
Hmm? You did it.

Jason (1:52:35)
now all my regular listeners like gonna try and go back a a c a year or so in time and listen to my episodes and try and figure out what’s going on. No, everything’s good. I just

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:52:44)
Yeah!

Jason (1:52:44)
and I’m so grateful that I’ve got people like you to chat with. Suzy, thank you so much and look forward to chatting with you again soon. All right, have a great day.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:52:49)
Absolutely. That will be awesome.

Thanks for having me, Jason.

Jason (1:52:53)
Hey, thanks, Suzy. Bye bye.

Dr. Suzy Ross (1:52:55)
Bye bye.

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Episode #211: Dr. Suzy Ross

Founder, Scientist, Author

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