Guest Bio
Vaibhav Kala is the founder of Aquaterra Adventures, a pioneering force in India’s adventure tourism industry. With over three decades of guiding experience across the globe — from the Andes to the Himalayas, and rivers like the Zambezi and Yangtze — Vaibhav brings deep expertise in both mountain and river-based expeditions. His leadership has helped position Aquaterra Adventures as one of the world’s top adventure travel companies, earning recognition from the National Geographic Society. A champion of sustainable travel, Vaibhav has played a key role in shaping adventure tourism policy in India, while also mentoring local talent and supporting rural communities. His work reflects a deep commitment to cultural preservation, environmental stewardship, and creating life-changing outdoor experiences that connect people to nature and themselves.
Show Summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Vaibhav about the remarkable growth of adventure tourism in India and his personal journey from a chemistry student to a global adventure leader. Vaibhav reflects on how his early days guiding river expeditions laid the foundation for a career defined by grit, adaptability, and a passion for the outdoors.
The conversation dives into the challenges facing the industry today, from over-tourism to shifting traveler expectations, and how Aquaterra Adventures continues to model sustainability and safety in every experience. Vaibhav also shares his perspective on India’s still-undiscovered natural beauty, the rising demand for meaningful, small-group travel, and the role of adventure in building not just better vacations — but better lives.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Aquaterra Adventures champions human-powered travel, emphasizing immersive, physical engagement with nature.
- ✓ Vaibhav began his journey as a river guide, discovering a lifelong passion for outdoor leadership.
- ✓ Growing up in a military family taught him adaptability and resilience — key traits for adventure tourism.
- ✓ India’s adventure travel sector has undergone dramatic growth over the past three decades.
- ✓ Over-tourism presents a major challenge, underscoring the need for responsible tourism practices.
- ✓ Educating travelers about expectations and safety is increasingly important as demographics shift.
- ✓ India still offers vast, unexplored landscapes ideal for small-group, off-the-beaten-path experiences.
- ✓ Technology is reshaping how people discover, book, and experience adventure travel.
- ✓ Today’s travelers are more conscious of their environmental and social impact.
- ✓ Sustainability, local community engagement, and safety are at the heart of Aquaterra’s mission.
What You’ll Find on Aquaterra Adventures
- ✓ Guided expeditions across the Indian Himalayas and remote wilderness regions
- ✓ A strong focus on sustainability, safety, and responsible tourism practices
- ✓ Culturally rich itineraries that connect travelers with local communities
- ✓ High-adrenaline adventures in trekking, rafting, and multi-sport experiences
- ✓ Eco-conscious lodging and wellness-focused travel options
Learn more about Aquaterra Adventures | India and connect with Vaibhav at:
https://aquaterra.in/
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Jason Elkins (00:01.128)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. Happy to have each and every one of you back today. And when I say back today, that’s also applies to my guest. We’ve got Vaibhav Kala. He’s the founder of Aquaterra Adventures. And this is his second time on the show. So Vaibhav, welcome back. Happy to see you again.
Vaibhav Kala (00:21.848)
Thank you, Jason. Thank you for having me back. Good evening. And yeah, it’s great to be back.
Jason Elkins (00:27.27)
It’s pretty cool for me because you’re actually the first guest that’s come back for an encore conversation. So that’s pretty cool. So we’re going to, we’re going to catch up on some things that have happened since the last time we spoke, which was, geez, I don’t know, probably a year and a half ago, kind of back in the beginning of the big world made small podcast days. And I think a lot of things have changed for both of us. So I’m excited to, to catch up on that, but let’s get our listeners caught up. The ones that haven’t heard.
our last episode, want to kind of give them a fair shake at figuring out who you are and what Aquaterra Adventures is all about. let’s start with the elevator pitch. What is Aquaterra Adventures? What should people know?
Vaibhav Kala (01:07.79)
Jason, we’ve been in the business of limbs and lungs travel. We are a 30-year-old adventure travel company based in India, but we operate throughout the Indian Himalaya and overseas. So from Akan, Kagawa to the Yangtze Basin, from Chile to Morocco, Jordan, running the Zambezi, climbing Kilimanjaro, and several multi-day options in the Himalaya.
That’s what we do. We also have a hospitality end of our business which operates two camps and an activity lodge as well. So we’re a bit of a hybrid firm. We realized very early that seasonality is the bane of adventure travel companies. So we’ve tried to beat that and just to make sure that we survive and we have a good team while we’re at it.
Jason Elkins (01:57.32)
makes a lot of sense. I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but I thought I heard you say you’re a limbs and lungs company. Is that what you said?
Vaibhav Kala (02:05.44)
Yeah, mean limbs and lungs travel. I mean it’s all about just physical outdoor pursuit and know our nature experiences. We don’t do any of the motorized stuff so it’s all human powered you know activity. So like rafting, kayaking, walking, hiking, climbing, high ropes courses, climbing walls, swift water rescue courses, kayak clinics, etc.
Jason Elkins (02:20.542)
Okay.
Jason Elkins (02:31.796)
So it’s your limbs and your lungs that get you to, well, I mean, I’m sure you use transport vans occasionally and stuff like that, but I got it. And I remember from our last conversation, we had conversations about a lot of cool things. We’re gonna weave some of those in here for the listeners that weren’t able to hear it the first time. But your personal story is of real interest and.
Vaibhav Kala (02:37.992)
Yes, between, yeah, for ferries.
Jason Elkins (02:56.65)
I want to dig into that because most of the people that do this type work have some sort of interesting story. Yours was really fascinating. So let’s recreate that part of the conversation a bit and let’s go back as far in time as you think we need to go in order for people to understand how did you get from where you were to where you are now.
Vaibhav Kala (03:17.494)
So Jason Young and Foolish, was 18, I was in college studying chemistry and science and we had a very active hiking club in our college in Delhi University and lots of hiking and climbing followed. I graduated in 1992, I was 20 and river running was just about starting in the country.
It was a new import sport and there were just about six guides in the country. The Americans had come and done the first descent of the Ganges River. That’s India’s holiest. And there was a small cottage industry that had started. So I signed up. I trained to be a guide. And by October of 1992, I was guiding weekend warriors down the river, taking them hiking, et cetera.
And I did that for about three years and then cabin fever hit because it was only river running that was happening and I wanted to do more. So I bummed around, I was a freelance guide for treks and river trips for a bit and then started Aquaterra at 23 with an old friend of mine, Solil.
and both of us set this up in 1995. So finished 30 years, Solil stayed on for about nine years and then he left the business to settle in the mountains and he still guides aquatara trips by the way. So he’s about 70 yeah and he climbed a 6 000 meter mountain a couple of years ago at 69 yeah so so he is
Jason Elkins (04:42.354)
Okay, very cool.
Jason Elkins (04:48.916)
Wow. Well, I have a feeling you’ll be doing that at some point soon. We’ll be hearing stories of you. That’s very cool. Let me ask you this, and this is nothing disparaging towards science people or people that go to school for the sciences, but they don’t always go from chemistry to…
Vaibhav Kala (04:54.555)
I hope so. I keep telling him I want to be like you when I grow up. So if I can be like solid, I’ll be happy.
Jason Elkins (05:15.334)
outdoor limbs and lungs type of stuff. So I’m curious a little bit about kind of the childhood. led you, maybe what got you going to school for chemistry and then kind of how did that transition other than you were going hiking? I heard that. I heard that you were hiking and getting involved in that, but why did you choose chemistry?
Vaibhav Kala (05:37.506)
So I was I was a contornment kid, you know, we had, my father was in the Indian army. He served in the infantry.
And typically of that core, you get transferred every two or three years to different locations across India. So I was changing schools, six to seven schools, through my entire 12 years of schooling. But we were always in contortments, which were like, you know, it was heavenly being in a contortment because after school, you’d go riding, you’d go swimming and cycling, wide open spaces, obstacle courses. So the outdoor, you know, DNA was already being built.
as one was growing up. And yeah, so it was just natural in terms of the graduation from that sort of contornment upbringing to the big city, to New Delhi. And the Indian education system just made sure that you got the course in which you got the highest marks in school.
Jason Elkins (06:41.066)
okay, all right. Before we…
Vaibhav Kala (06:42.934)
So I was the accidental science student.
Jason Elkins (06:46.758)
Okay, I gotcha. And I want to make sure I’m clear. I think I know what you mean when you say, contonement. I assume we’re talking about kind of like it would be a military base or something like that, where maybe there’s maybe you’ve got a little bit more space to kind of spread out and go explore than than if you’re living in a typical neighborhood. Is that kind of what you’re saying? Okay.
Vaibhav Kala (06:56.716)
Yes, yes.
Vaibhav Kala (07:07.062)
Absolutely, yes. These are large, large acreages of army bases which have residential accommodations for say young officers and brigades and battalions, etc.
Jason Elkins (07:23.344)
I spent some time in the US Army and lived on an Army post that was quite large that kind of sounds like what you’re describing. And I also realized that there were a lot of areas that probably were kind of off limits, weren’t necessarily fenced off, but were kind of areas that you just don’t go hang out. So I just want to ask you, did you and your friends get into trouble very often getting into places that you shouldn’t have been?
Vaibhav Kala (07:51.986)
Well, yeah, there were a couple of ammunition depots that had a sentry and he would tell us to leave. So, these were early days again. The environment was a lot safer than what it might be now.
Jason Elkins (07:58.154)
Haha!
Jason Elkins (08:06.16)
Yeah, I can imagine that. And I also envision moving every two, every two, three years or something like that, that you described, puts you in a spot where you kind of every time you showed up somewhere, presumably had to make new friends.
Vaibhav Kala (08:22.326)
Yes, exactly. I think that was the most traumatic part of moving. New spaces were great, but making new friends, that was always challenging because new teachers, new classmates, it was tough. Which is why one didn’t end up making too many friends through school and that only happened in college, in university and then after.
Jason Elkins (08:49.482)
Okay, I suspect there’s kind of a couple different potential scenarios that could happen there if you’re moving around every two, three years, but you’re in the containment, so you’re presumably with other kids that are kind of going through the same situation, which means at any given time, I’m sure you make a new friend and they might be leaving in six months. You probably have a constant kind of revolving door. So you get there and…
Vaibhav Kala (09:12.043)
Exactly.
Jason Elkins (09:17.642)
Yeah, they’re leaving, you’re leaving, which I guess compared to the flip side of which the good thing about that I’m guessing and I’d love to hear what you think is you’re all in the same boat. So probably nobody there has this big clique of kids that they’ve been with for the last five, six, seven years.
So you’re all in the same boat as opposed to if you just showed up at a school where everybody else had been with each other since they were five years old, that might be hard to fit in as well. What was your experience?
Vaibhav Kala (09:48.662)
Yes, I think it was pretty much what you described it to be. was, you know, and I think it just builds up your resilience. You just get used to it that, yes, okay, you know, I’ll keep making friends and it may not be for very long, but, you know, we get moved out and then we join another school. And so I think it just builds resilience at some level. You make do with whatever you have and you try and savor that and enjoy it.
Jason Elkins (10:13.93)
Do you think that’s helped you working in the tourism business?
Vaibhav Kala (10:17.294)
I think eventually it does. think the resilience for sure because you know these are spaces which are difficult to navigate when you’re young and you know trying to know trying to get rooted to some place and then by the time that happens you have to move on and yeah so I think resilience for sure it does get built up.
Jason Elkins (10:39.218)
And probably a bit of adaptability and just flexibility because like when you said, you know, you’re kind of bouncing around and doing different things, presumably different places, different team members, different colleagues. And that was probably just, no big deal. I’m used to this, right?
Vaibhav Kala (10:43.341)
Sure, absolutely.
Vaibhav Kala (10:59.446)
Yeah, you roll with the punches as they say, You just do what you need to do.
Jason Elkins (11:05.609)
All right, was there, what’s the earliest moment that you recall thinking, you know what, I think it’d be kind of fun to work in the outdoors and to, maybe you didn’t have to label tourism. I don’t know, you tell me.
Vaibhav Kala (11:18.734)
I think when I was 18 and 19, I was quite sure because I just loved climbing. It was really love at first sight for me, in terms of just being out with a backpack, hiking, doing stuff on your own, going out with friends and going climbing over the weekend to a nearby spot.
So everything that was out, running a marathon, playing squash, just being out and active was what I think I realized very early is what I wanted to be because that’s where I think I was happiest.
Jason Elkins (11:55.722)
Can you either maybe you’ve experienced this and actually experienced this, but can you imagine or did you imagine what it would be like to have a conversation with your parents and say, you know, I know the Indian education system thinks I should be a chemist, but I want to be climbing mountains or rowing boats down rivers. did that conversation come up or was that like, obviously no, we’re not going to discuss that or what was that like?
Vaibhav Kala (12:20.043)
It’s in.
Vaibhav Kala (12:25.39)
Now I did, and obviously as parents they were concerned because nobody knew what kind of employment would rowing boats down the Ganges would be like. I mean this was 1992 and it was unheard of. But I had very good support, I must admit. My parents were…
were fine with it and because they knew that my mind was made. But it was very, very early days, even in India, even anywhere actually, except in, you really organize mature industries like the US. It was different. like in Asia, it was very, early days for river running and hiking and climbing to be offering employment to people or…
or giving them a long gainful sort of employment. So it was rough and it could have gone very long.
Jason Elkins (13:22.858)
So when you say they, yeah, exactly. And when you say they were supportive and all this, but you still went to school, you still, right? There wasn’t a, they’re supportive, was it, okay, yeah, we support that. That’s a great goal, but you’ve got to go get your bachelor’s degree in chemistry or something first, or what was that like?
Vaibhav Kala (13:43.756)
Yes, so they did tell me finish your three years and then you do whatever you want, but finish your bachelor’s degree and then then you do whatever you like, but finish your studies.
Jason Elkins (13:52.266)
Do you, I mean, obviously it worked. guess we’re having this conversation. It worked fine for you. Do you regret finishing school or going to school? Did you feel like you would have been, was it a waste of time or was it good for you?
Vaibhav Kala (14:07.66)
I think initially I thought I would gain a lot by, you know, by not having finished college and just being ahead in my career by a couple of years. I think in hindsight it was good because you finish off, you’re a little wiser, you know, and I think it really helped eventually. Even with the network of friends and connections that you make to college, it’s important and it’s good to at least have a degree had things gone south.
Jason Elkins (14:34.943)
Right.
I get that. And you’re about the same age I am. I’ve got kids. I’ve got a couple adults now. Do you have kids as well?
Vaibhav Kala (14:44.462)
Yes, I do, I do. I’m going to be 54 and I’ve got a couple.
Jason Elkins (14:50.25)
All right, so based on what we were just discussing, okay, you can do whatever you want to do, but you need to go finish school first. Has that changed in the last, you know, since, since you were back at that age, did you give them the same advice your parents gave you or has it changed?
Vaibhav Kala (15:07.654)
Yes, mean the advice has been the same, know, finish your studies, get a job, you know, it’s pretty standard conservative outlook in terms of, know, just making sure you have all the paperwork with you. Do whatever you want after, but get that paperwork sorted.
Jason Elkins (15:25.354)
All right. Yep. What did your kids end up doing then?
Vaibhav Kala (15:28.77)
So my son is in fact he’s in Canada now and he’s finishing in December and he’s got a job lined up for next year. So he’s one line item of my expense book.
Jason Elkins (15:41.258)
Congratulations. That’s, that’s exciting. And, was there ever moment when he said, you know, dad, when I’m done, I want to go be a, a ski instructor or a rafting guide or a mountain guide or anything like that.
Vaibhav Kala (15:43.682)
Thank you.
Vaibhav Kala (15:55.338)
Not as yet, but he’s done a lot of travel, the kind of travel we do. He’s done a few expeditions. He really enjoys the outdoors, but I think he wants a regular job. I don’t think he’s ready for a full-time outdoor career. Not as yet, at least.
Jason Elkins (16:11.85)
All right, well, I’ve had a lot of conversations with people here on the show that it took them five, 10 years at a real job before they decided, okay, I got that out of my system or it goes the other way around. You know, that could happen as well. So, all right, that’s very cool. So, let’s go back to, well, when you were in school studying chemistry,
Were there moments when you thought, maybe I will get a job? I mean, were you applying for jobs in chemistry when you got to the end of your schooling, or was it just a certain thing? I know exactly what I’m doing when I’m done.
Vaibhav Kala (16:51.206)
No, so you know in my first year I did apply for the merchant navy. I got through the written examination but I was colorblind and apparently they weren’t perfect vision 6×6 which I wasn’t. So that was the only sort of occupation that I did try for. just seemed
really fun in my first year and then after that it was you know with as I got into more and more hiking and climbing it was it was always going to be the outdoors.
Jason Elkins (17:26.346)
All right. That’s very cool. So kind of walk us through, you’d mentioned that you were kind of initially on your school breaks doing some work and then you started moving around, doing some things. Tell us a little bit more about that. so we can kind of, mean, you gave us the overview now let’s, let’s pick it apart a little bit. What was, were there moments that you recall that you thought, what the hell am I doing with my life? I need to go get a real job or were there other opportunities that were like, wow, this is amazing. I’m never, I’m never going to turn.
Vaibhav Kala (17:56.366)
So I think the first two years of me guiding professionally were very exciting and a lot of learning because also it was 1992, 1993. was…
you couldn’t even get proper equipment in country, importing gear was difficult. Everything was challenging. And so you learned a lot, learned to innovate, learned to do, make do with limited resources, manage things, because it was literally a cottage industry, like I said. And so you learned a lot, which is very exciting for a 20-year-old to be learning new things every day, every week. And I think…
The stagnation, the boredom only set in after about three years, which is when I thought, I can’t be running rubber buses down the river with weekend warriors every weekend. I wanted to do more because I was skilled in mountain climbing as well and I loved hiking. So I didn’t want to just be a river guide and I wanted to really take my other skillset, put that to good use as well.
Jason Elkins (18:48.6)
huh.
Vaibhav Kala (19:06.632)
And there was not much in terms of the industry at that time. So then that’s when I quit my job at the river company I was with, the one I trained at, Himalayan River Runners. And I freelanced just figuring out what I wanted to do, et cetera. And that was the scary bit because there was no money. You would freelance. You’d depend on someone giving you the odd job.
etc. And then you started the company. I started it when I was 23 and young and foolish, know, but you just went with the heart and you had a dream, you had a vision that you wanted to do more river trips, mountain trips and more. And that’s how Aqua Teta started in 1995 and with the vision to
to offer people a very wide repertoire from soft adventure to hard demanding trips.
Jason Elkins (20:07.37)
All right, cool. That gives me some questions. I got a few here. Let’s start with, cause you’d mentioned that it was kind of new stuff. You kind of mentioned like words like cottage industry and you didn’t have a lot of the equipment. Did you have a lot of, were you interacting with other guides maybe from?
the states or other countries that kind of thought, we know what we’re doing. We’re the big shots and they show up and were you working side by side with them or did you run across them or was it just all Indians?
Vaibhav Kala (20:44.75)
No, so there were a lot of visiting guides that would come because there was a paucity of Indian guides. So I got trained by an Irish guy, Jonathan Nollieri, who’d take me down the river three times a day, just sit behind, tell me how to row, how to navigate rapids. And then there were visiting guides coming in from the UK, from the US, all the time. So you worked with them. And that was great because you got to know a different way of working, people from a…
from a culture where this was already established and it was not a very nascent sort of industry. So yeah, like I said, this was part of the learning as well, just working with people who were from more mature industries.
Jason Elkins (21:19.06)
with the
Jason Elkins (21:27.56)
Would they complain about the lack of proper equipment or, cause I’m envisioning them showing up. They’re used to maybe having access to newer equipment or different equipment. And then they, they show up and they’re mumbling and grumbling, my gosh, I can’t believe these boats or these or locks are horrible. And, then you’re maybe hearing this, I guess where the, where I’m going with this question is, did you even realize, or how did you realize that the equipment you had wasn’t really up to par in the beginning?
Vaibhav Kala (21:57.998)
So, know, I think it was sort of up to par. There wasn’t enough of it, you know. So like we would never have like a spare rescue bag, know, or spare oars just lying in the store. You had to be very careful not to break a blade, you know. So there was that sort of feeling always that this is very precious stuff. You know, there was only one self-bailing boat on the river in the 90s, you know.
Jason Elkins (22:03.708)
Okay.
Vaibhav Kala (22:20.718)
So it just gives you a sense of what it was like. But I think everyone who came into India, mean, India is so fantastic in terms of the culture and especially the mountains. We’re not talking about the Delhi, Delhi, big city, hustle and hassle sort of exposure, but.
But you’re in like pristine mountain country in the Himalaya. So everyone gets just blown away with the resource, know, and the scale of it. So it was great. I don’t think there was ever a point where they would feel like it was a disadvantage because I think the other aspects just made up for it.
Jason Elkins (22:56.298)
They were just happy to be there probably. Yeah. Yeah. We’re going to discuss that. And before we go any further, I want to figure out like, were your parents still supportive? Cause when you’re 19 and you’re like, I want to go be a river guide. And they’re like, yeah, sure. Whatever. But make sure you finish school first. Once you finish school, you can do whatever you want. But then I can imagine when you’re 22 and you’ve kind of finished school.
And then you actually say, okay, now I’m really going to go be a river guide. Were they as enthusiastic and supportive or did that change? Yeah.
Vaibhav Kala (23:29.486)
They were worried. They were worried. And I started at 20. I finished college at 20 and I joined the industry right away. So they were worried then, but I think they were more worried when I quit my job and started my company. So that was a bit of a shocker because nobody knew where it would go. It could have gone horribly wrong. But I think that was one source of support that really kept me going.
Jason Elkins (23:43.484)
Yeah, that’s even. Yeah.
Vaibhav Kala (23:59.054)
They helped out with initial, you know, a little bit of funding, etc. Just a little bit of pocket money to get by and just sustenance levels of support. I could lean on them, you So that was great to know that they were there for me for those few years that I needed some support in terms of financial help.
And then I think also the right place at the right time, Jason. The industry was just about growing. so that also helped. It was an advantage. We got the early mover advantage. There were very few players in the market. If you did a good job, you’d get more work. The word would travel really quickly.
And I think that was the basis of our business model, just high degree of referrals, word of mouth, reputation, et cetera. And we were young, I was willing to work. I would work 18 hours a day, no problem at all. So I think in terms of the right time, right place, that really, I think that was the secret sauce.
Jason Elkins (25:09.994)
It’s important. You look at a lot of successful business leaders, well-known business leaders. Maybe it’s Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or some of these people that just kind of, if you read about their stories, they just are in the right place at the right time. They happen to live right next to a university at a big mainframe computer that they got access to 10 years before anybody else really got access to those types of things. So that makes a lot of sense.
Vaibhav Kala (25:36.536)
Yeah, and luck plays such an important role, right? Being in the right place, right time. I mean, you can work very, very hard, but if you’re not at the right place at right time with a huge slice of luck, you know, I mean, things may not work out the way that
Jason Elkins (25:50.536)
that well, it’s, good to, mean, we’ve got some interesting things happen in the world right now that are opening up, you know, that right place, right time. It’s scary for the rest of us. Like for me anyway, that it’s like, well, I’m not sure I’m at the right place at the right time, but there are some people that sure are right at this moment. So anyway, I wanted to ask about, and I don’t know how deep, how deep you want to go into this, but I suspect that young man, early twenties, maybe there’s.
I don’t know there’s family pressure or not, but there’s usually an element of what’s my life going to be like? What kind of relationships am I going to have? Am I going to have a family? So I’m imagining a young man in his twenties who’s kind of a rafting guide slash freelance mountain climbing guide slash hiking guide slash, okay, I’m going to start a business. And these are things that most people don’t even probably realize that exists.
at that point in time. if you meet a nice young lady and she’s like, what are you doing? You say, I went to school for chemistry. She gets all excited maybe. And then you say, but I’m a river guide. Was that a challenge or were you even paying attention at the time?
Vaibhav Kala (27:05.652)
I think I hardly got to socialize. When we were young, we were always up in the mountains. So there was no social life. Yeah. So it was, and you know, we had to, those were days when we had to drive 114 kilometers, two ways to make a call to Delhi to find out whether there’s anybody coming that week. there was, mean, was, mean, infrastructure was a challenge. know, was telecommunication wasn’t there. There was no internet. So.
Jason Elkins (27:11.338)
Well, that makes it, that makes it tough too, doesn’t it? Yeah.
Vaibhav Kala (27:34.156)
So yes, it was easier in a way that there was no distraction and there was just no connectivity.
Jason Elkins (27:40.49)
So like you said, the right place at the right time with few distractions. That can be helpful because I, yeah, I get that sometimes that is a distraction. I remember last time we spoke, we talked a fair bit about kind of safety and this is…
Vaibhav Kala (27:43.104)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (28:00.628)
What’s prompting this thought in my head right now, again, as we’re talking about, know, cottage industry kind of new, you mentioned things like we didn’t have a spare, maybe a spare ore in the boat or things like that, or safety bags. And I’m curious when you got started with this, was there any sort of licensing or requirements or, and how has that changed over the years?
Vaibhav Kala (28:26.264)
So in terms of the rules and the regulations, it was the early operators, including us, who helped the government chart out the policy and the framework and the advice, because governments didn’t know any better.
So they relied on professionals to help them navigate the policy and put that down. So lot of the Indian safety guidelines were written by the older operators, including us. And so that really helped because we got really authentic information in. There were early days, there was one way to do it. There were no ways to cut corners. Safety was what it was internationally. The benchmark was there. We all knew about it. We may not have had access
at that point to everything, but we knew what we needed. So it was a very clean sort of understanding about what the industry needs to be and what we had to strive to get to. So in fact, when we started, sorry, when…
Jason Elkins (29:22.858)
Who would, I was gonna say who was really pushing for that? I’m curious, was this the government saying, we don’t know anything about this, but we know that we need to implement standards and safety and security, but we don’t know how to do it. And then you guys kind of just helped them figure it out. Or was it you guys saying,
Vaibhav Kala (29:42.029)
Yes.
Jason Elkins (29:44.66)
hey, we need to implement these rules, these regulations, and you go into the government saying, here’s what we think that needs to happen. I just trying to figure out who is driving the train there.
Vaibhav Kala (29:55.138)
So I think the initial push came from the industry because we wanted the permit system in because the governments, I mean, you have to work with a licensing system and the government didn’t know, they knew that they had to issue permits, but they did not know the conditions of the permit. So while we, so it was sort of symbiotic because we wanted the security of the permit and the license and the government needed to know what conditions that would entail.
So it was fairly symbiotic. So we pushed for the proper licensing mechanism, the conditions, the rules and the guidelines, et cetera. And the government figured out the permit rule pretty quickly.
You know, so, and then they were, they had, they weren’t cognizant of what this could be or where this could go. So they were fairly cooperative. You know, it was an absolutely new activity in the country and they were curious. so, yeah, I think fairly supportive at that point in time.
Jason Elkins (30:56.276)
Were there people within the government that were as enthusiastic enough about it to say, I want you to show me firsthand. I want to understand this. So take me on a river trip or take me on a climb. Okay.
Vaibhav Kala (31:08.448)
Absolutely. Yes. Yes. So that was definitely part of it. You know, they would come down. We had beach camps then. They would come down. The Wildlife Institute of India did a full research paper on how beach camps were sustainable and they could run responsibly with, know, dry pit toilets above the high water mark, et cetera. So there were studies done on it. The IITs came in. The government was fairly proactive in making sure that
that what was happening was under proper guidelines.
Jason Elkins (31:43.594)
Do you recall the actual individuals you dealt with at that time? Were they enthusiastic? Was that like a real treat for them to get to go out and spend time on the river with you guys? Or was it, okay.
Vaibhav Kala (31:55.948)
Absolutely, absolutely. I remember a few conservative forests of the Bhagirathi circle under which we came. Very, very good people, foresters for whom protection of forest was paramount and they loved it. They saw that this experience wasn’t at odds with the forest that they were supposed to protect. In fact, our presence stopped illegal hunting, dynamiting for fish.
So we were sort guardians of the river as well. And they saw that, I think, and that’s why it led to more growth over the years.
Jason Elkins (32:31.636)
that makes sense. Were there people either kind of in the industry or maybe that had other interests that were resistant? So what I’m thinking here is maybe an operator that doesn’t feel like they’ve got the resources to buy the safety equipment or they don’t want to jump through the hoops or they want to, or maybe there’s, you mentioned fishing with dynamite or whatever, blowing up, you know, that type of thing.
So were there other elements out there that were resistant to you guys being guardians of the river? I guess is what I’m saying.
Vaibhav Kala (33:07.15)
So that did start as the industry mushroom, but this was only in the mid late 2000s. So only about 15 years ago when it started to really mushroom where the problem started to occur overloaded boats, accidents on mountains, single raft trips, trips going without.
proper permissions, unlicensed boats, unlicensed guides. So that whole massification as it began, then they started the shortcuts for the industry and industry players. So that did happen and as a result of which in 2015, they stopped beach camping along the Ganga because there were many violations. And so instead of punishing the violators, they just shut down the beach camp industry.
So it’s typical government reaction in South Asia. If something goes wrong, don’t try and fix it, just shut it down for a while. And so we all bore the brunt of, in an industry that we all worked very, very hard over 20 to 30 years to set up the beach camp industry, which was a boundaryless experience for people to come and experience the great outdoors. So that was the end of that.
Jason Elkins (34:24.394)
What do you think it was? You mentioned it was, did you say about 15 years ago? 10 to 15 years ago?
Vaibhav Kala (34:29.71)
Yeah, sorry, 10 years ago, 2015 was when the National Green Tribunal shut down beach camps on the river.
Jason Elkins (34:37.962)
Okay, so what do you think it was that started causing all the problems or did it, sounded like what I heard was things were going great and then something happened. We started having these problems and then they shut down the beach camps. What started causing the problems?
Vaibhav Kala (34:57.526)
So I think it’s just that proof of concept when it’s there, and it shows itself to be highly successful and working. You get more people in the trade, more people want to do the same thing. But the outdoors, as you know, it’s more about…
It’s always been about outdoorsmen or outdoorswomen leading the charge. It’s not never been a regular business option. It’s always driven by passion and the need to want to have a lifestyle of spending time in the outdoors and combining it with livelihood. But then when it just becomes business, then you have a lot of people coming in, and especially in a populous country like ours, 1.4 billion people. There’s a lot of people who started wanting to
wanted a piece of the pie, but did not have the passion or the wherewithal to know how to operate safe trips. And there came the violations, the accidents started on mountains, on rivers. And even now, we have a lot of bans that come up because of unscrupulous operators that…
that want to run mass trips into very fragile zones and eventually the impact is there. It’s there for everyone to see and then governments just come in and shut areas down. So that is one of the greatest threats to our industry is over tourism and that is one of the biggest challenges, biggest threats that we see for us going forward.
Jason Elkins (36:40.616)
I’m curious in your area in India, does that?
Jason Elkins (36:57.525)
I’m just curious what that was like.
Vaibhav Kala (37:12.136)
No, it’s not come to that yet, but there is a definite need to speak out against the overtourism. Also, it’s a poor country, right? So operators who are doing mass traffic at very low prices, they get more people into an area, which means also that more people are getting employment.
Also, it’s double-edged because the local people don’t understand that more sort of traffic, even though in the short term it might provide employment, it does great damage to the very USP of the area, which brings people to it in the first place. So they destroy that USP, then people eventually will stop coming. So it’s double-edged. We’re trying to sensitize governments, and hopefully new policies will come where.
where group sizes will be regulated, guest to guide ratios to reduce accidents, et cetera, will come in. So as part of industry advocacy, we work a lot with trying to instill that into governments and we made some pretty good headway.
Jason Elkins (38:20.074)
Okay, does.
As far as the demographics or the typical person, the typical client, let’s say the typical client that you would see on the river 30 years ago, compared to now or 10 years ago when this stuff really started coming to a head, has it changed dramatically? Cause I heard you mentioned more operators, lower prices, more people. Does that mean more?
more local people, more Indian people, or is it just across the board, more of everybody?
Vaibhav Kala (38:55.278)
So I think the guests who go for those mass trips at low pricing are largely local people because they don’t understand value-based pricing. They understand cost-based pricing, but they don’t understand value of safety, of guest-to-guide ratios, what kind of tent are you using, what kind of hygiene levels exist on the trips, et cetera, et cetera. So.
So yes, that is something that we’ve seen the rise of domestic tourism contribute a lot to the over-tourism in our mountain areas. And the only way it can be controlled is by proper policy that eventually states will have to come into and enforce and regulate.
Jason Elkins (39:44.874)
But I suspect that’s difficult because I’m imagining a politician that maybe gets it. OK, we can’t have so many people in there. So we need to limit the number of people, which then means it’s more expensive for each individual to go in there because there’s fewer permits. And now it goes to a situation where not the only people, obviously, there’s a lot of people in India that have money.
maybe a lot of the local constituents might look at it and say, geez, you’re pricing it out to where I can’t take my family to go enjoy the river. And the only people I see on the river now are tourists from the US or Europe. And that’s not fair because this is my river and I should have access to it before somebody from outside the country. So then the politicians like,
Yeah. How do I, how do I go against my local constituency that’s voting for me or involved in, I don’t know how the political system in New York, so you can steer me in the right direction. But is, is that, is that a kind of the scenario? Cause I’ve seen that in my, you know, I was a fishing guide rowing boats down river in Montana and I saw things like that. So I’m just curious.
Vaibhav Kala (41:02.432)
Yes, you’re absolutely right. And what happens is that if you regulate the kind of traffic that would go to say a certain valley because it’s mass and you know, low priced, if you stop that, then that short term employment that is being offered that goes out and then there’ll be obviously be human protest that hey, you know, we want we want that income to come in.
Again, that realization between at what point do you control it because if you degrade the very USP of that region, eventually people will stop coming there. There are many examples of that already across the globe.
So that is where the environmental impact needs to be controlled. And secondly, the human risk, because what’s happening in a lot of places, not only India, that low price trips will always end up having a higher accident rate.
because lower price chips are cutting corners on guest guide ratios, the kind of equipment. A lot of accidents in the Himalaya are happening because availability of tents for 3000 rupees, going up to 5000 meters when a squall comes in, a snowstorm comes in, those tents get buried with people inside. Whereas the difference between say a North Face, VE25, which can go to South Kuala and Everest, the price difference is a lot.
it’s over 30 times landed price in India, but that will ensure that you never get stuck badly or buried in a snowstorm. So I think that is where the cost-based price versus value-based pricing will come in. And it’s always the discerning customer who will realize what
Vaibhav Kala (42:47.726)
What are those questions that they need to ask? And I think it’s a cycle of learning. It’s eventually the industry, the customer also has the owners to be aware and ask the right questions. And eventually I think it’s a long, slower cycle in Asia because it started off that much later than the rest of the world, the rest of the Western world.
So, but I think that will happen because we see it, know, we get discerning customers who understand this and that’s, those are the people that we want to take care of in the mountains.
Jason Elkins (43:23.412)
Right, right. You know, when we talk about or we hear about overtourism, it’s a big topic, big discussion that, you know, everybody in our industry is talking about. And when I think of overtourism or when I think a lot of people think about overtourism, they’re seeing images in the news of people in Barcelona or Venice or Rome protesting on the streets. We don’t want the foreigners here. Send them all home.
We’re pissed off. We’re done. We’re done with this. We don’t like it. But the overtourism that you’re talking about still fits into the overtourism category. But the local, other than maybe operators like yourselves that are trying to provide a high value product, there people out at the boat ramps on the river complaining that there’s too many people there? Are there protests about too many people there? Or is it just you as a
as an operator, realize there’s too many people.
Vaibhav Kala (44:24.908)
So the too many people scenario, it’s less visible on rivers because boats just go. It’s transient, right? I think it’s more in your face on trekking routes where the campsites are, people are just captive in one place. And that’s where you see the impact of what, say, 110th does with maybe three toilet tents.
So it’s more evident there. think the consequences of such over-tourism have also been more evident in India because a lot of places have got bans like there is a Bugyal ban, which is a meadow ban. In some areas, operators who indulge in mass tourism destroyed the meadows to the extent that the government had to stop checking to those areas.
And it has happened in Ladakh, it has happened in Garhwal, the famous Nanda Devi sanctuary has been shut for a while. So there have been examples of over-terrorism resulting in governments stepping in.
Jason Elkins (45:30.33)
Who sees it though? In India, what you’re describing, you mentioned a camp with 100 tents and only three toilet tents. And I’m thinking, okay, the people that see that and that maybe would think, hey, this kind of sucks, are the people that are the tourists. you correct me if I’m wrong, because I don’t know. They’re the tourists or maybe some of the staff or maybe there’s a handful of people that really care about the environment that see it.
but the people living in the community, do they see it as over tourism? Like the people in the villages around these areas, along these trekking routes feel like there’s too many tourists?
Vaibhav Kala (46:13.068)
So there are three parties involved, right? The tourist who’s coming in, are blissfully unaware of what this sort of impact results over a long period of time. The operator is obviously, he’s got vested interest in pushing these numbers. The local economy is short-term thrilled.
because that means income for their horses, for their mules, for porterage, for camp hands. So they are getting sustenance. And that’s very important for them because some parts of India are very poor. So these are the three sort of.
players in this whole game, know, and so which is why it’s difficult to have a very quick solution because it needs a lot of awareness, lot of maturity, a lot of understanding on all three, you know, the part of all three parties for operators to realize that you are killing the golden goose, you know, you cannot destroy the areas that you work in. You cannot have conveyor belt operations, know, fixed camps and fragile areas, just moving people in at low prices. That is, that is,
That’s killing the industry. The customer has to be aware and that this is not the outdoors. You cannot enjoy the outdoors with 200 people at a campsite. Adventure travel more and more is about small groups going into more remote areas where 90 % of the tourism dollar remains in that region. And the locals have to realize that…
Jason Elkins (47:48.682)
Mm-hmm.
Vaibhav Kala (47:53.068)
They are the guardians of their area and they must do everything to make sure that the USP of their valley does not get degraded. So it’s three completely different buckets of interest and protection involved.
Jason Elkins (48:08.668)
It’s a tough thing. In my mind, it’s kind of similar to commercial fishing. We both know stories of areas where somebody has invested a bunch of money in a fishing boat, and that’s how he makes his living. That’s how he feeds his family. So he’s going to go out and he’s going to catch as many fish as he possibly can and bring them back. And as long as there’s fish, everything’s good.
And then if the government comes along and says, geez, you know, we need to protect this, this fishery, we’re going to cut, we’re going to give you a quota. So you can only catch half as many fish each day. You know, it’s like, but, but you’re doing the right thing by, catching fewer fish. It’s better long-term for the environment. And he’s like, yeah, but my kids, you know, my kids are frigging hungry and why should I have to cut my catch because.
Vaibhav Kala (48:45.196)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (49:01.668)
somebody else didn’t manage this right or it’s a tough thing in it.
Vaibhav Kala (49:05.75)
It’s very difficult. mean, on one hand, you know, I’m inclined to think that you can’t democratize mother nature and, have it open for everyone to go in and destroy it. And there has to be some way to regulate it. Is price that point? I don’t know. I’m not sure. It doesn’t sound right. Is awareness the way to go? I don’t know. I was on the Akan Kawa base camp. I was there in January this year and they just run it so beautifully.
And there is a price to be paid for it. They’ve conserved it. They run a great operation. There are about 10 companies operating there. The price level is high because it costs a lot to be there. And so there are examples where places can be kept pristine. It’s cleaner than Everest Base Camp. It is the biggest base camp outside the Everest region.
and there is a price that they charge and you can see the difference. So I don’t know which way is good but I think the only thing I know is that you cannot destroy the USP of the area because that will kill tourism, that will end the flow of tourism. All three parties have to be in sync.
Jason Elkins (50:20.362)
Right, right.
Jason Elkins (50:26.76)
Wouldn’t it be great if we could figure that all out right now on this episode, solve all kinds of problems, but it is a, it’s a serious issue. I have to ask this. mentioned that they got rid of, I guess you, I think you called it shore camping on the river shore camps, beach, beach camping. So I know nothing about the rivers there, but do you have other options? Cause I’ve been on floats where.
Vaibhav Kala (50:43.566)
Yeah, yeah, beach camping. Yeah, we had that for a while.
Jason Elkins (50:56.33)
It’s not like there’s a boat ramp. You put in somewhere and then you’ve got to float for two or three days to get to the next road. So you do tend to do some sort of shore camping, beach camping, that type of thing. Do you still have options or does it, or would they say no more beach camping? Does that just shut down that stretch of the river or what happens?
Vaibhav Kala (51:18.848)
So the beach camping, the fixed beach camps have stopped, but we run the most number of expedition trips. We’ve done about 12 multi-day trips, rivers in Asia. So we have a lot of long rivers because of the Himalaya. have, you can go down 180 kilometers over six nights camping. So we do a lot of self-contained expeditions in India, much like the Colorado River. You start at Lee’s Ferry and you go all the way down.
have a lot of those rivers which provide that length.
and that distance to do that. So yes, our river operations are still very strong because we are able to go to other places and run those multi-day trips. But the threats are still there. The road building is going on. That’s killing the trekking industry because the roads are getting to over every high pass that you trekked over. Dams are killing rivers. We are having to run harder water because the dams are in the way.
So yeah, it’s, I mean, it is changing. The whole industry has turned on its head in the last three decades. Development playing a toll, greater disposable income, lack of awareness. I mean, there are just so many factors that are playing the pulls and tugs at the industry that it’s fragile.
Jason Elkins (52:40.626)
to make sure that listeners to this, well, I want us to be completely honest and, and, and, I don’t want to get to the end of this conversation. We end the conversation. stopped the recording and then we both reflect back and think, geez, we kind of made it sound like India’s done. Like there’s, you know, it’s, it’s overcrowded over whatever. And I guess we need to find somewhere else to go because I don’t think that’s the case.
Number one, number two, like me, even on our last conversation, I learned so much because for the typical American that hasn’t been to that part of the world, you say, come to India, visit the Amalias. like, I’m not, I can Everest. I’m not going to do that. Why should I go to the Amalias? What’s, what else is there that I can do that maybe doesn’t, it doesn’t fit like ice and snow and being miserable on top of a mountain. And I might not make it off of.
So let’s talk a little bit about what’s the good stuff in India that people need to know about.
Vaibhav Kala (53:44.386)
Yeah, absolutely. mean, you we were talking about the risks and stuff and I think every valley, everywhere where tourism is rampant, faces the same challenges as India does. But we are large, you over 70 % of the Himalaya lie in India. I mean, next month I’m guiding two trips back to back in, you know, what is possibly the last biodiversity hotspot on the planet in the northeast of India. Absolutely untouched. It sees maybe the, I’m on the Kamming River, which sees maybe two trips a year.
On the Siam, we are still the only operator 23 years down the line that starting from the Chinese border. So it’s a there are still spots you can be on a cruise around the Brahmaputra River in a big ship in luxury or the Ganges. You could be, you know, in a wellness station in the Himalaya or by a beach or in a forest. So, I mean, there are just lots and lots of options in a.
area which has so much diversity. got the world’s biggest mountain chain, you’ve got big deserts, forests, coastlines. It’s a big country and it faces a lot of challenges in the areas that we just spoke about but those are challenges that exist everywhere where there will be a popular tourism industry.
But India has the whole northeast, for example, it’s absolutely untouched. There’s seven large states with absolutely stunning, pristine scenery. That is still open. There are parts of Ladakh that are untouched. Kashmir is absolutely stunning. There’s not a place on the planet that looks like that.
So, I mean there is great diversity if you look at just diversity, know, we are lucky to have the Trans Himalaya which you can work, you can travel all 12 months in India. Even through the monsoon you have areas which don’t get the monsoon. That’s great for, we are probably one of the only adventure tourism destinations where you can adventure 12 months without the weather getting to you. So, yeah, sorry.
Jason Elkins (55:56.394)
When you say, here’s honestly what comes into my head. When you say, this area is beautiful and it’s untouched and there’s another area that’s beautiful and it’s untouched. And this is me as somebody who grew up in the United States and is not familiar with India. I’m thinking if in my mind, if it’s in India and it’s untouched, it’s because it’s 20,000 feet above sea level.
and it’s gonna, I’m gonna have to kill myself to get there. So help me understand when you’re talking about these untouched areas, why are they untouched? And what does that mean to me as somebody that wants to go see them?
Vaibhav Kala (56:39.99)
So I think, so in a country like ours, is very, it’s populous to curate trips and that is what we have been trying to do. We try and curate trips to take people to places which are off the mainstream tourism beat, know, whether it’s river, mountains, spa, whatever, is to take people like, I gave you an example of going to Arunachal Pradesh.
Every year they’re finding new species of snakes, of flying squirrels, birds there. And it’s totally untouched. There is no infrastructure. You don’t have to go 20,000 feet up in the air. The Himalayas run northwest to southeast. So even in winter, it’s very ambient temperatures. You can go self-contained. You can do mountain bike. You can go for hikes without seeing anybody.
So there are areas that even in Kashmir, four years ago, we opened up this place called the King of Meadows. And just nobody there, miles and miles of open meadows. You can go horseback on it. You can even ride a bike on it, a mountain bike. You can walk. So there are still parts and that is where the secret sauce, like I said, it’s operators have to come out understanding that the ethos of adventure travel is small group travel into areas.
where it is possible. You can’t take large groups into very remote areas, which is why the solution is to find places which are many in India, to take people remote, varying degrees of difficulty, and in small groups. And that will be the future of adventure travel, the world over.
Jason Elkins (58:28.732)
Are you hoping that other tour operators, maybe that you would call your competitors in India, do you hope that they listen to this episode and learn that from you? Or do you feel like by even saying that you’re almost inviting them into those areas to where they’ve, I don’t know, what do you think?
Vaibhav Kala (58:49.774)
I wish more would think this way. And I think over time, everybody will learn that there is no point in destroying the very industry that you’re trying to help grow. And I think there is also a large mature audience in India. There is a large mature adventure travel industry in India.
But unfortunately, the impact that an unscrupulous operator can make just is far greater than what maybe 20 good operators can do. So I think that there has to be a change of vision, a change of outlook, a change of ethos about not only just environmentally, but safety, risk.
everything has to be assessed and it cannot be cost-based pricing. It has to be value-based eventually. And sooner operators realize that, I think our destinations will be better safeguarded.
Jason Elkins (59:47.914)
Okay, so what I hear you saying is if these operators can realize this and make these changes that we really need to make as an industry in India, that’s the only way we’re gonna keep this going and do well with it. it’s almost like you need to encourage them because here’s the thing, if you’ve got a handful of operators that are just really, I’m just gonna say.
I shouldn’t, maybe it’s too dramatic to say killing people on rivers and mountains or providing poor experiences for people. People go home and say, yeah, I went to India and it was, my gosh, it was horrible. Because there’s parts of India that already struggle with that, with reputation, right? And so if someone goes home and has a bad experience, they’re going to say, I was in India. It was.
Vaibhav Kala (01:00:34.359)
Absolutely.
Jason Elkins (01:00:43.218)
I didn’t have a good experience, they’re not going to say, well, I wish I would have picked Aquaterra Adventures. If I’d picked them, it would have been a good one. You know, so you kind of need the people around you to be doing a pretty good job as well.
Vaibhav Kala (01:00:50.638)
I’ll send you a button.
Vaibhav Kala (01:00:57.44)
No, you’re absolutely right. mean, each of our guests, we should be looking upon them as our ambassadors, India’s ambassadors.
Jason Elkins (01:01:05.993)
Do you know, I don’t want to put you on the spot. I told you we didn’t have to do any homework for this, but do you, are you, do you have a guess what like, I mean, there’s a lot of tourists that go to India. Do you have ideas of like what percentage of, I don’t know, tourists that go to India or from the U S or Europe, or do you have any, any numbers on the top of your mind that you can think of or.
Vaibhav Kala (01:01:32.886)
I don’t have the exact numbers right now. No, no.
Jason Elkins (01:01:35.624)
I’m sorry. I was just, I was just trying to envision like, this, you know, are let’s talk about.
Vaibhav Kala (01:01:40.108)
No, but the US and England are big markets. I know that for sure. Germany.
Jason Elkins (01:01:44.66)
Let’s talk about your clients, your clients that come visit India. Are they mostly from outside of India, mostly English speaking or how would you just generalize your typical client?
Vaibhav Kala (01:01:58.262)
So they’re nearly all English speaking. It’s a mix of both Indians and non-Indians coming from Europe and the US mainly. And it’s seasonal. The inbound season moves typically from July till Jan-Feb and through the winter in India, maybe in Feb.
So it’s about half the year and the domestic season is throughout. So over time, the domestic population of tourists has probably grown. It was maybe when we started, it was 80 % inbound and 20 % domestic. And now it’s about 60 to 65 % domestic and 35 inbound because the numbers have grown.
Jason Elkins (01:02:35.891)
Okay.
Jason Elkins (01:02:43.082)
Okay, I’m curious, right, right. And I’m curious about your other destination, because you’re doing a lot of stuff in a lot of cool places. You mentioned Aconcagua. There’s other places out there that you’re doing. Are these the people going on those trips with you, are these people that generally visited you in India first? And that’s how you develop the relationship. And they’re like, yeah, bye, Bob, where you going? I’ll go with you.
to the next place or what does that look like? Are the Indians traveling with you on occasion?
Vaibhav Kala (01:03:17.676)
So it’s a mixed bag. Like I said, it’s people. So we’ve been in operation for 30 years and we don’t have any marketing boots on the ground. Our business revolves around referrals, word of mouth, repeat travelers. So you would tell somebody, hey, we’re in India. So that’s how it works. And I think over time we’ve realized that’s the best sort of guest to have. Somebody who’s come through referral.
A lot of questions that would be asked by somebody brand new are not asked by customers coming from referrals. So turnaround time is very quick. You know the sort of person you’re dealing with.
And yeah, so it’s a mixed bag. There’s people from India, from overseas. But generally, at our price points, it is always the discerning traveler who is aware. You asked about how has the traveler changed from 30 years ago to now. The travelers of the 90s and the 2000s were far more aware. They were tougher in terms of robustness.
The adventure travelers of today are definitely on a needy scale, needier for sure. They need more care. They need more supervision. They need more advice.
Jason Elkins (01:04:44.956)
Is that now, but let me ask you this, is that.
I’ve actually had a few conversations with people and I’ve been around long enough now. Some people started their business 30 years ago and their clients were all 30 and now they’ve got the same clients but they’re all 60. So I guess the question is do they need more because they are 30 years older or are we talking about they need more because society has changed and we’ve just all got softer?
Vaibhav Kala (01:05:17.582)
No, think the latter is true. think they’re not that clued on into adventure travel anymore. And they generally don’t have the skill set like the travelers of…
the 90s and the 2000s, you wouldn’t have to tell them how large a duffel bag that they would need for a seven day hike or what’s the liturage of their day pack, what all they have to carry in there. So what I’m trying to say is that today’s traveller, think even if they know, they expect a higher level of inputs, of information, of updation, of…
Jason Elkins (01:06:04.394)
Isn’t that interesting? Because we’re living in a world now where there’s access to more information than we’ve ever had in the past. And I hear you saying the travelers today need more information. So do you think that this is a case of almost so much information that they just don’t know? And it’s like, I read 15 different,
Reddit’s and I asked chat GPT 14 different ways and I watched 87 YouTube videos and they all said something different. So now I don’t trust myself. Whereas 30, right. As well as 30 years ago, it’s like, ah, seven days probably need about this much stuff. Okay. I’m good. But now it’s like, instead of they just like, can’t, I’ll just go to Google or chat GPT. And, and by the time I’m done with that, I’m like,
Vaibhav Kala (01:06:45.056)
It is also true. Yes.
Vaibhav Kala (01:06:53.176)
Yeah.
Vaibhav Kala (01:07:00.779)
Yes.
Jason Elkins (01:07:03.402)
I don’t know if I need just one pair of shoes or a whole bag. don’t know. So I’m going to go ask a bi-pov in his team. What do think?
Vaibhav Kala (01:07:09.964)
Yeah, and needing to be in control, know, like everyone’s got these smartwatches. How far are we? How long are we going? Why aren’t we there yet? The day plan didn’t say that there would be this and there would be that or it would take that long. So you get these questions were never asked. If it was an eight hour day and you left camp at eight o’clock in the morning, you wouldn’t ask how far it is till you did it was four o’clock in the evening because it was an eight hour day. You wouldn’t ask at 11 o’clock, how much have we done and how much is left? You know, so I think
Jason Elkins (01:07:15.082)
Jason Elkins (01:07:35.21)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (01:07:39.54)
That’s true.
Vaibhav Kala (01:07:39.968)
I there is a need to be in greater control of the experience now than earlier because adventure is about, know, there’s risk, there’s effort and there’s unknown. You know, I don’t know whether you’re going to finish this hike. I don’t know whether you’ll get to the summit. I don’t know whether it’ll rain. I don’t know whether we’ll be able to get there today. And that is the whole charm of adventure travel.
Jason Elkins (01:08:03.666)
I, I spoke with, I remember one of the guests I had on the show and she’s like, yeah, we don’t give them an itinerary. We, we just tell them, you know, you show up on day one, we’ll pick you up and eight days later we’ll drop you off at the airport and don’t worry about what we’re doing in between. We’ll do stuff like they’ll just trying to generally, you know, we’ll spend some time doing this type of stuff. We’ll spend some time doing this type of stuff.
Vaibhav Kala (01:08:11.63)
It’s very smart.
Jason Elkins (01:08:31.284)
We’ll eat well and we’ll stay in nice accommodations, but we’re not going to pin anything down because that gives us the flexibility to adjust by the group dynamics or by the seasonality or the weather or whatever. And I thought, well, that’s kind of ballsy and it’s working. Don’t you kind of wish you could do that?
Vaibhav Kala (01:08:51.276)
Yes, there’s two ways to do it. One is to just go this way and just say, day one pick up, day eight drop. Because I think even if you give a nightmare, I’ve had people asking me, why isn’t this plan more detailed? Why isn’t?
Why don’t we have more information? And so yeah, it’s tough because guests do want to be in control of the experience. And I think that is what dilutes the experience for them because they want to know everything, every turn, every detail about the experience. And I think that they’re robbing themselves of the whole adventure, which is also the unknown.
Jason Elkins (01:09:30.0)
Yeah. Well, I think part of the challenge is if you look at personality types and, you know, in general, what type of personality makes enough money to go on some of these trips is, you know, it’s generally people that are pretty consistent and have schedules and routines and, and really good habits that serve them really well.
when they’re in the workplace and they’ve got an executive assistant that has their, their day outlined every 15 minutes. And it works really well for them in that environment. So then they kind of want to take that with them into the other environment where somebody like myself, that’s kind of a free spirit. And I mean, I literally don’t know where I’m staying next week. I’ve been traveling full time for four years. I don’t, I don’t know where I’m staying next week. So if I show up on one of your trips and you’re like,
hey, we’re gonna go have fun. I’m like, okay, cool. know, wake me up when it’s time and I’ll, you know, give me 15 minutes to get dressed and we’ll go. But I also don’t have the kind of money to afford your trips. So that’s the problem.
Vaibhav Kala (01:10:34.764)
Yes, that traveler is probably lost. Lost to the world now.
Jason Elkins (01:10:43.09)
Yeah. Well, it’s probably the type that you were around a lot back when you were getting into this, you know, when you were
Vaibhav Kala (01:10:49.259)
Yes, absolutely. They knew their stuff and yeah, they didn’t need the neediness level was way less. They didn’t need to know everything. They knew a lot already.
Jason Elkins (01:11:03.198)
Yeah, that’s probably some of your guests might listen to this. we, so we’re not talking about your clients. We’re talking about the clients for the other operators, right? Yours are all super easy and never have any silly questions. And, yeah. So what do you, as a team? Well, I don’t know. We’ve got a lot of tour operators and listen to this that.
Vaibhav Kala (01:11:09.39)
Absolutely, yes.
Jason Elkins (01:11:29.066)
You do actually deal with a clientele that has some interesting stuff going on. mean, a lot of tour operators probably have trips that are a little simpler, maybe. I don’t know if I should say that. I don’t want to offend anybody, but like as an American, like I told you, if I think of the Himalayan as a place where it’s unknown or untouched, I’m thinking I need crampons and an ice pick to get there. So I don’t know. So I’m probably going to ask you about those questions.
If I’m going on a tour that’s a culinary trip in Vietnam, I’m probably a little bit more relaxed about what I need to bring. So you guys obviously do trip planners, packing lists, all that stuff. What have you learned about that stuff other than people don’t read it? I know you’re going to say that.
Vaibhav Kala (01:12:14.894)
You’re absolutely right. A lot of our guests, they end up without coming, having read the PDF. And that is so true. So I’ve started to do more calls with the guests just to set expectations. Like some of our hard hikes, say Moblegne and Dolomites, you have to get people onto a call and just tell them that you need to do this much in that amount of time because…
Jason Elkins (01:12:22.407)
you
Vaibhav Kala (01:12:41.83)
Otherwise, you won’t complete it. I think there is also a need now with all the factors that we discussed is along with the need for more information is to actually also lay it on absolutely thick and directly that this is what is on offer. And I think that has really helped us as a company because we’ve done a lot of hard trips as well. And it’s very important for us to…
tell them everything right at the start and then we record those conversations for those who missed. We send them with a note that you have to listen to this 45 minutes of packing and trip expectation. That has become a very big thing for adventure travel. And I think that’s something for better, that expectation setting has become easier with technology.
and it’s also become a very very important part of any adventure travel trip.
Jason Elkins (01:13:40.17)
Gee, you know, it’s interesting though. It kind of what you’re saying makes sense because if you just look at how people consume content right now, I I do a lot of digital marketing stuff. You’re obviously, you you’ve been around this space. There’s a lot of talk. If you go to an ATTA workshop or conference or summit or something, there’s somebody who’s going to be talking about using video. So we use video to help us.
you know, reach, reach new customers and get them inspired to where maybe they’ll book a trip because we know they’re not going to read the blog posts. We know they’re not going to read a really long social media post. So why are we still all doing these digital PDF trip planners? Knowing damn well that most of our customers haven’t read more than one page of anything. And probably the last five years.
So I love what you’re saying. Do a group conference call, right?
Vaibhav Kala (01:14:38.434)
I’m so delighted to hear this from you. So it’s obviously an international phenomenon that people sign up on trips with thousands of dollars and don’t read the PDFs. I’m very pleased to hear that.
Jason Elkins (01:14:48.498)
I think we’re all wasting our time. actually, I think maybe that’s a business idea for me, because I’m often looking for, I really like doing the video stuff. like having conversations like we’re having right now. And I’ve been looking for different ways I can help support tour operators. And I was thinking, know, video testimonials or maybe like…
Vaibhav Kala (01:14:50.798)
Thanks
Jason Elkins (01:15:08.596)
video introductions to guides, like, you know, or like your staff page on your website, instead of a little bio, they’ve been with us 15 years, they’re certified this way, their birthdays are this day, you know, instead of all that stuff, just do a little 60 second intro, like where the guide is actually, you know, sharing a little bit of story like you are. But then as I listened, as we’re having this conversation, I’m like, yeah, packing lists and trip planners. Yeah, that’s, you know, cause.
Yeah, OK. I think you and I need to test market some of that stuff. yeah. All right, that’s very cool. Anything you want to add to that subject?
Vaibhav Kala (01:15:50.904)
No, I’m good. This was great, Jason. Yeah, it’s great insights and always fun chatting about the travels of adventure travel.
Jason Elkins (01:15:57.362)
It is, it is.
Yeah, we’ve, we’ve discussed a lot, covered a lot of things that I know we could continue to do more. remember the last end of our last conversation. said, you should come back. We should can discuss some more. And what’s. And what’s interesting is I remember our conversation from last time. And I’ll tell anybody that’s listening to this. We just had two completely different conversations. We covered, we discussed a lot of stuff this time that we didn’t last time. The reason I’m mentioning that is anybody that’s listening to this, that’s enjoyed this conversation wants to hear more.
Vaibhav Kala (01:16:10.446)
Right, thank you for having me back.
Jason Elkins (01:16:31.848)
Make sure it’s right on the website. Go back and find his other episode that we did together as well by Pavan and it would be worth listening to as well. But yeah, I guess that’s question. Is there anything I forgot to ask, anything you wish I’d asked or anything you want to make sure we put out there before we wrap up this conversation?
Vaibhav Kala (01:16:51.746)
No, I think we covered everything that is covered some morose stuff, some morbid stuff and some fun stuff.
Jason Elkins (01:16:59.39)
Well, very cool. I sure appreciate it. It’s always good to see you. I look forward to seeing you in India. I need to check out the Himalayas. I think it’s probably one of the most spectacular places on the planet. And I’m excited to do that. And I’ll come see you. And we should mention, you’ve got, you still have the lodge, right? I don’t know if you call it a lodge.
Vaibhav Kala (01:17:10.092)
You must, absolutely must.
Vaibhav Kala (01:17:18.882)
We do, yeah. We have an amazing lodge in the Himalaya. It’s only an hour from Dardoon Airport, which is a 25-minute flight from New Delhi. And you are in the lap of nature, overlooking the holiest river in the land, and just reserved forests, barking deer roaming around, bird song all day. It’s fabulous. Jason, you must come out.
Jason Elkins (01:17:41.77)
I will. remember last time we spoke, you had that, I think was in your background and it was like, that’s what, that’s why I remember it. Cause I remember we discussed that. So, all right. Well, very cool. We’re going to have a link right to your website in the show notes. anybody that’s, you know, anybody that’s listening already feels a connection with you. So if they have any desire to do not just India, cause there’s other stuff you do, we, touched on some of it, but just click on the link or take a look at, at BiPOP website and reach out.
Vaibhav Kala (01:17:43.992)
Yes. My experience.
Jason Elkins (01:18:09.021)
And when you reach out to him, say, I, I heard you, or I saw you on the big world made small podcast. it’ll make, hopefully it’ll make him smile. And then he’ll drop me a quick note and say, Hey, this, we just booked a trip for this guy and his family. Cause he heard us on the podcast. That would make me feel great as well. There’s no sort of affiliate links or anything like that. I just, I just like to hear about it. So anyway, Vaibhav Thank you so much. Appreciate you taking time out of your day and look forward to seeing you again soon. Thank you so much.
Vaibhav Kala (01:18:36.546)
Thank you, Jason, and big world made small. Thanks a lot. Have a great day.
Jason Elkins (01:18:40.618)
You too. Bye bye.
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