Guest Bio
Wells Jones (aka Tad Jones) is an adventurer, author, and former Navy Antarctic Pararescue & Survival Instructor. With a unique background that spans military service, theater, and live event production, Wells has had an extraordinary career. He is an American Academy of Dramatic Arts NYC graduate with Off-Broadway, commercial, TV, and film credits. Wells has also worked as a producer and director of live events in venues such as the Kennedy Center Opera House, Lincoln Center Avery Fisher Hall, and along the Red Sea Coast, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. He is co-author, with Miles Spencer, of the Amazon best seller *A Line in the Sand: A Novel (Adventures in Understanding with Magnus & Finn)*. Passionate about adventure, Wells finds peace scrambling up 12k+ mountains for sunrise summits in all seasons.
Show Summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, Jason Elkins interviews Wells Jones, an adventurer and co-author of *A Line in the Sand*. Wells shares his incredible journey, from his military upbringing to his experiences in Antarctica, and his transition into acting and producing. The conversation touches on his travels in the Middle East, cultural insights gained along the way, and the importance of empathy in understanding different perspectives. Wells discusses the role of adventure tourism and travel organizations in providing unique experiences and concludes with reflections on the power of storytelling and the shared humanity that connects us all.
Key Takeaways
- ✓ Wells’ military background – Discipline, adaptability, and the importance of being prepared.
- ✓ Isolation teaches self-awareness – Wells reflects on the lessons learned during solitary experiences.
- ✓ Theater skills – Acting played a key role in Wells’ later work as a producer and director.
- ✓ Role of travel organizations – Facilitating safe and enriching travel experiences.
- ✓ Cultural exchange – Fostering empathy and understanding between diverse cultures.
- ✓ Adventure comes in many forms – From extreme sports to cultural travel, adventure is all-encompassing.
- ✓ Storytelling’s power – Connecting people and bridging divides through shared stories.
- ✓ Following passions – Wells’ journey underscores the importance of pursuing what ignites your passion.
- ✓ *A Line in the Sand* aims to shift perceptions – The book provides deeper understanding of the Middle East beyond the headlines.
Learn more about A Line in the Sand Media and connect with Wells at:
https://www.alineinthesandbook.com/
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Podcast Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated on recording, and has not been edited by a human. It may contain lots of mistakes, crazy words, and stuff that makes no sense. The host and the guest are not responsible for the accuracy of the transcript.
Jason Elkins (00:01.092)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. We’ve got quite an adventurer on the show today. He’s going to tell us a bunch of cool stories and his name is Wells. Wells Jones. He’s an author of A Line in the Sand. Wells, welcome to the show. So happy to have you here.
Wells Jones (00:02.862)
Thank
Wells Jones (00:20.462)
Thank you very much, Jason. It’s great pleasure to be here. It’s a good day.
Jason Elkins (00:24.78)
As I mentioned, yeah, as I mentioned to you right before I pushed the record button, I thought we’d just give our listeners just a real quick. And you said that’s hard to do. I get it. But we’re going to give them a real quick, what’s the book about in the 30 second kind of time frame? And then we’re going to go back way back in history and we’re going to work back to the book. And then we’re going to dig in a little deeper. So what do you want our listeners to know right off the bat about the book?
Wells Jones (00:32.258)
Hahaha.
Wells Jones (00:47.886)
Okay, dear listeners, the book, Line in the Sands written by myself, Wells Jones and Biles Spencer back in 2005, we want to do know more about what’s going on in the Middle East. We worked eight months to get into the Middle East to follow T.E. Lawrence’s path from Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, following the Arab revolt right up to Damascus, just like in the Lawrence of Arabia movie. And then we went into Israel. The book is based on that and finding out.
what’s really going on in the Middle East, maybe something beyond the headlines that were just raging around us in 2005, 2006 during that war.
Jason Elkins (01:27.716)
Very cool, because now anybody that’s listening is, that was really, I didn’t time it, but it was enough that everybody that’s listening to this is, ooh, that sounds fascinating. And I promise everybody that’s listening, we’re going to come back and dig into that deeper. But I’m always curious about when somebody does something like that, what the heck was going on in their childhood? What was going on early in life? And how did they get to the point of doing that? Because you’re not the typical person that’s.
Wells Jones (01:29.196)
Was that 30 seconds? that? Okay.
Jason Elkins (01:55.706)
you know, sitting on the couch watch, I shouldn’t say the typical person, but you know, the person who’s sitting on the couch watching the news or scrolling through their social media. So something happened to get you to where you are. And I remember the first time we spoke, we talked a little bit about some time that you spent in Antarctica. And so how far back do we need to go to get a kind of an idea for you Wells?
Wells Jones (02:02.412)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wells Jones (02:17.608)
Well, I think it has to start with a large military family. My father was a captain in the army, Korea, a general’s aide. I have two older sisters that are twins, a younger brother and a sister that are twins, and a brother born on my first birthday. Okay, folks, that’s six kids. We were all within six years of age.
My mother has passed on, bless her, mean, fabulous woman. And my father passed on when we, when I was 11, everybody was very young and we were in Vermont. We’d moved from South Carolina where I started school, good old South Carolina and moved to a very rural town in Vermont. My graduating class with five towns was 31, very rural.
Jason Elkins (03:01.134)
wow, where in Vermont were you Wells?
Wells Jones (03:03.97)
Bethel, Vermont is close to the center of the state. It’s right off of Interstate 89. And, you know, we had just a number of small little towns that people fed that school. During high school, of course, the biggest influence in my life was my mother. There were things that set the stage. One was, by the time I was a sophomore, I said, I want to run away. So what are you talking about?
Jason Elkins (03:09.039)
Hmm.
Jason Elkins (03:32.911)
Hmm.
Wells Jones (03:34.486)
I said, I can’t deal with this. I want to go out there beyond that. She said, read, you need to read more. You’re not reading. I don’t want to read. Why would I want to read when I can go out and do something? And she said, well, if you cannot handle where you are in the moment, you have no business going forward. Deal with where you are first, always. And then you’ll know where to go next.
Jason Elkins (03:56.152)
Hmm.
Wells Jones (04:03.79)
start with that. So that was something that I learned and another thing that I learned that was very instrumental was a Churchill quote and I have to read it because I mean I could paraphrase it Churchill forget who it was but it was Churchill. I mean you may have feelings about him to each there comes in their lifetime a special moment when they are figuratively tapped on the shoulder and offered the chance to do a very special thing unique to them and fitted to their talents.
What a tragedy if that moment finds them unprepared or unqualified for that which could have been their finest hour. Jason, I have been tapped my whole life on the shoulder to do things I never would have dreamed of doing. I wanted to fly jets. 1973, Vietnam just over.
And I thought, gee, go into the Navy, you can get a GI Bill. I mean, this is how much I knew. And then apply for jet school. That’s as far as I got. I got into the Navy and I ended up, I did not end up getting into jet school. By the time I was on my way out the door, the commanding officer really, he really, the sentencing was very clear and quick. Son, you’re six foot three.
You have lousy eyes. You will not be flying jets. I can put you anywhere in the world if you would re-up. Your record is stellar. You’re Antarctic para-rescue. You’ve done great things. You’ve been awarded and so forth. Where would you like to go? I said, sir, I’m going to leave. And if I can’t fly jets, I’ll be a smoke jumper in the Pacific Northwest. Anything, at any rate.
The time in the Navy was very instrumental because it was the discipline, it was learning capacity, was adaptability that I got from my mom. was learning to be, find the joy where you are. Don’t comment on it, participate, be involved. And it just gave me great skills that I’ve used ever since. And they’ve just stacked up. I ended up going to acting school.
Wells Jones (06:29.94)
instead of smoke jumping. My best pal, my climbing and skydiving partner on the rescue team. By the way, the para rescue team was a skydiving precision parachuting team that could land. We landed on glaciers and on the polar plateau and it was established because we had so many mishaps. We called them mishaps when a plane went down, usually because on takeoff trying to plow through an open field.
of snow and ice, there would be JATO, which is Jet Assist Takeoff, canisters put on the back aft part of the plane to assist lift in the aircraft. Well, they would fly off the bracket like rockets. You see it, I’m used to see it at air shows. They have a C-130 and on a regular runway, they’re ignited and it just
Jason Elkins (07:15.043)
So they were like rockets or something? Yeah.
Wells Jones (07:29.452)
basically gives it jet assist to that aircraft. And so that’s why we had a parachuting rescue team. Why were we there? We were flying the planes for the National Science Foundation, flying scientists and placing them in all different lat longs around the ice, Antarctica. And so it was an extremely exciting, adventurous deal.
for four years.
Jason Elkins (08:00.13)
want to dig in a little bit more into how you got there because we left with, okay, you were in Vermont. Your mom’s like, you need to learn how to deal with where you’re at. Be in the moment, be in the present. A few different ways to say that, that’s what I heard. And then you ended up in the Navy thinking you wanted to be a pilot in the Navy. Did you go straight from Vermont into the Navy? Did you go to school before that? Or what did that look like?
Wells Jones (08:04.782)
Thanks.
Wells Jones (08:08.43)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (08:20.814)
Correct.
Wells Jones (08:25.494)
I did. I know, no, I was in, I was out of high school, I think nine days. I wanted to get out of Vermont as soon as possible. And this was my avenue. I had no business going to school. Dartmouth was very close. And I know about Dartmouth from other people that went there, friends, and also it was the only cultural avenue that one could get in Vermont or in the area where I lived.
Jason Elkins (08:32.847)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (08:54.028)
You know, it had Hopkins Center, which was, you know, you could see it, listen to some music, could see some theater and so forth. Actually, the drama director of Dartmouth, Rod Alexander at the time, was our commencement speaker. And I am telling you, it was a very, it was a great choice for me. But the crowd was kind of perplexed by this very flamboyant tweed guy with an ascot and
glasses coming on and off is telling these 31 kids to go live life, travel, experience. And most people hadn’t been far in where I lived.
Jason Elkins (09:33.388)
Uh-huh.
It’s it’s an interesting thing because I lived in Vermont for nine years. I was in southern Vermont down around. Yeah, down around Bennington actually went there for. Yep. Very close to Bennington. I went there to work for Orvis. I don’t be in a Vermont guy. Maybe you’ve heard of Orvis. Yep. But I but the only reason I went and I’m not knocking Vermont’s beautiful place and I was in Montana before that. So I went from Montana to Vermont to run the travel business for Orvis. So
Wells Jones (09:42.662)
you did.
Bennington.
Wells Jones (09:52.352)
I do. of course.
Jason Elkins (10:07.051)
in my mind it was like, okay, I’m going to Vermont because I’m going to be able to go visit all these other places in the world. So it worked out. But I remember thinking, don’t know. Gosh, it’s so beautiful. And I know we’ve got listeners in Vermont, but it’s quiet and it’s isolated. And if you have a little ADD like I do, and maybe you do, I don’t know. I’m not going to speak for you. But it was, yeah, it was like, as long as I was traveling, it was fine. But then if I go for a few months without taking any trips, it was just like,
Goodness, it was the same little country lane back to my house every day after work in the same little market that I would stop into to buy whatever I needed. And I went in the same place for nine years, three or four times a week. And every time I walked in there, they looked at me like, who are you? What are you doing here? I didn’t go to high school with you. You’re clear. You know, you know. So for to listen to you talk about going to school there and how you’re like, man, I want to get out of here.
Wells Jones (10:41.71)
All right.
Wells Jones (10:51.266)
Amazing.
Exactly!
Jason Elkins (11:06.061)
I kind of, get it. And now that we’ve turned off all the Vermont people, they’re like, I’m not listening or they’re resonating and they’re like, yeah, I can relate to that. All right, so yeah, nine days you’re like, I’m going to go join the Navy. And I guess the question is, cause I heard you say it.
Wells Jones (11:16.782)
Bye.
Wells Jones (11:21.742)
Well, I had signed up before. It was planned. I actually signed up in February. And I knew, and the war was just over, I knew that was my ticket out. And I wanted to just to see where I would land. And I was very positive. And it was spectacular. What a choice. At 19, 20 years old, stepping off a C-130,
Jason Elkins (11:28.297)
like the… Okay.
Jason Elkins (11:45.187)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (11:49.918)
as a member of the parachuting rescue team of Antarctica.
Jason Elkins (11:54.157)
Yeah, it’s super, super cool. I completely get it.
Wells Jones (11:56.874)
had gravitas and responsibility, responsibility, accountability, it was focus. And fortunately, I just wasn’t into big drinking or drugs and it was mountain climbing, working with the Kiwis that taught us how to do rescue techniques, guys that were from the South Island of New Zealand. The staging base was Christ Church, New Zealand. So we went from Point Mugu to New Zealand. It was.
Jason Elkins (12:21.327)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (12:26.595)
What did your family think? You’ve got a bunch of siblings. I don’t know if your, was your mom still around at the time? Your mom was still around at the time when you shipped off to the Navy, right?
Wells Jones (12:27.406)
Christchurch, New Zealand.
Wells Jones (12:35.85)
I miss, yes, my mother passed on 10 years ago. Yes, absolutely. And the fun thing was, you know.
Jason Elkins (12:43.129)
So what did she think? And your siblings?
Wells Jones (12:48.426)
Siblings didn’t, that wasn’t, just they didn’t have a say in it. They were involved in their lives. You know, they were involved with their friends and the things that they did. They just knew that I was heading out. And then, you know, when I came back to visit after a year and I had my parachute and things and I was showing my brothers, well, this is what it looks like. And they’re just standing there just like, this is amazing. And they were like, this is amazing.
So do you have to, do you carry a gun? No, I don’t have a gun. I have an ice axe. What do you do with that? Well, I arrest myself from falling down from the sides of glaciers, you know, but.
Jason Elkins (13:20.153)
Mm-hmm
Jason Elkins (13:31.511)
Yeah, hopefully you don’t have to use it very often.
Wells Jones (13:35.124)
No, it was fantastic. the exposure to the scientists, to their assistants, to multiple cultures, the languages, the French, Russian, we made an annual flight to Vostok-Buktok, which was the Antarctic, the Russian Antarctic base. And it was always exchanging, you know, Wrangler jeans for
fur coats. I mean, it was unbelievable. Wrangler jeans was probably the hottest item back then in the early seventies to exchange for another item or a series of things with the Russians. But it was the Kiwis. And of course, the Kiwis are just renowned Mountaineers. Edmund Hillary was a New Zealander, you know.
Jason Elkins (14:04.943)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (14:27.439)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (14:31.15)
Rob Hall, so many, and the guys that I was trained with and became friends with and climbed with in Antarctica, all have passed on on mountains. Everest and different places have moved on. And we were all within the same age range.
Jason Elkins (14:45.529)
well.
Jason Elkins (14:49.487)
You know, couple, right, a couple questions on that. One that I just have to ask, one question that I have to ask is when you joined the Navy and maybe you were thinking, OK, I want to go be a fighter pilot in the Navy.
Wells Jones (15:05.486)
Mm.
Jason Elkins (15:08.163)
Did your recruiter not mention, jeez, Wells, you’re 6’3″. Your eyesight’s not that great. Or was he just kind of like, yeah, sure, once you get in, once you get in, can do anything you want to do.
Wells Jones (15:16.364)
Well.
Wells Jones (15:21.294)
Well, what I started off, I had to select a rate when I was, you know, a trade, as they say, and I was going to be a yeoman. And I was going to be a yeoman so that I could be a judge advocate’s assistant. Now a judge advocate is an attorney and that’s an officer. And I thought I would start at that level because it’s intelligent, it’s high level. I had no idea that.
the direction it was going to take in my mind. When I mentioned fighter pilot, he goes, oh sure, sure. You know, it was in Vermont or New Hampshire, Concord, New Hampshire. I was sure.
Jason Elkins (15:57.488)
You
Once you finish your basic training, you can go to flight school. Yeah, I remember. They got me the same way. They were going to…
Wells Jones (16:07.959)
He said, and then what I found out is…
today.
Jason Elkins (16:13.987)
Yeah, was, you know, was, yep. go be a Ranger and do Ranger airborne infantry and then you can go be a helicopter pilot. It’ll be really easy.
Wells Jones (16:25.038)
Exactly. Exactly. Well, I had buddies that were, they flew UH-1Ns. That’s what we flew in Antarctica, twin jets. And the guys, you everyone’s like 26, 27, 28 years old, you know, young JGs, Lieutenant JGs, you know, and they’re flying and they’re getting their AC, their aircraft commander. And they were Mavericks. These guys were
Jason Elkins (16:25.325)
Yeah, I never became a helicopter pilot either. So, but anyway, yeah, that’s pretty cool. and
Jason Elkins (16:35.353)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (16:46.884)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (16:54.186)
Hot shots, even the C-130 guys, there was, when I found out about the jet school, it really after I was in the Navy, is what I realized that’s what I want to do. And it came from the C-130 pilots. And I heard, because I was into, I was a yeoman, I had access to the officer’s records. So I knew a bit about these guys. Of course it’s all confidential, but I didn’t know.
Jason Elkins (16:55.598)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (17:05.552)
Okay
Jason Elkins (17:22.084)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (17:23.374)
their background, where they went to school, how well they did and so forth. And some had applied to jet school and they didn’t get in. And I asked them about it because I became friends. I was a pretty intense skier at the time. And when they found, even though I was enlisted, they found out that Jones was a skier and they’re like, huh. And I said, well, yeah, let’s go to Mammoth and we’ll ski. they said, all right, you know, we’ve got to keep it quiet. And then we just all whooped it up big time.
Jason Elkins (17:36.995)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (17:52.452)
Yeah, that’s great. Because that was the other question I was curious about. Two parts, maybe one is the typical person that ended up on the, you know, I’m thinking, geez, join the Navy. And they say, we’re going to send you to Antarctica. Was that like a good thing? It’s like, is that something people wanted to go or was that like, man, that’s like sending me to Siberia? How did most people interpret this opportunity?
Wells Jones (17:53.005)
You
Wells Jones (18:07.374)
and
Wells Jones (18:18.508)
The first way I knew about it was when I had just finished A school, was Yeoman training. You go through bootcamp and then you go to A school and it’s usually in a different city, different part of the country. I was in San Diego and the guys that were running the class were handing out orders. People were getting submarine and I knew I did not want to go submarines. And some people were going to apply for SEAL training.
I had considered that and I said, no, no, no, no, just stay with where you are. Just see where this goes. You can always, and that’s what I was told. You can always apply for seal training buds. And, that was my mindset. And they were going Davis, Diaz, blah, blah. You’re going on a, you know, the different acronyms for things. I’m more catered to that, but on this or that ship. And, they said Jones.
Good.
Wells Jones (19:19.19)
He showed it to the guy next to him and he just was shaking his head. Put it down, didn’t tell me until the very end. He picked it back up and I was going.
Wells Jones (19:33.834)
and they picked it up and he said, Jones, you’re going to teach. I said, sir, Christchurch, New Zealand, you’re going to fly planes for National Science Foundation. This is a choice deal, but I’m going to tell you son, and son was used a lot, I’m going tell you son, you’re going to freeze your butt off in Antarctica. So I don’t know about that, but Christchurch, New Zealand is pretty choice.
Jason Elkins (19:53.156)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (20:04.067)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (20:04.11)
And so that was it. And getting there, you everybody was pretty much, the feeling was everybody was selected. And I had talked a lot about my hiking and my outdoor work time and skiing. was a very proficient skier. I didn’t compete, but I was competitive in a way. And so I always…
said that to people and I think that that had a lot to do with how I got down there. And it was…
Jason Elkins (20:37.807)
Yeah. And they’re figured, well, he’s from Vermont. He must like the cold. It’ll be good. He likes to ski, likes the, and isolation, all those things.
Wells Jones (20:48.633)
And I’ll tell you what, you learn who you are when you’re in those situations in isolation, you know? And I’ve found out out doing my hikings. Yeah. Well, I have always… Go ahead.
Jason Elkins (20:57.423)
I do want to touch on that.
Yeah, I wanted to touch on that.
Well, I was just, was curious about kind of social life, honestly, is what I’m thinking is because I was in the military as a young guy, been around it a bit. And if you took me and sent me off to some Island with a bunch of army guys, it wouldn’t be for be long before I was like, man, I really want to go socialize. want to be around other people being around these same army guys all the time, you know, could be stressful. So.
Wells Jones (21:30.286)
I loved the ice. was into, I was rescued. And so everything I did in the United States or in Christchurch was preparation for my work in Antarctica.
Jason Elkins (21:35.139)
Did you have opportunities to socialize? Do you look back at it and think it was kind of fun? Or how would you describe what that, I mean, maybe in Christchurch.
Wells Jones (21:59.766)
I became a survival instructor. I mean, I learned and after the first year, it’s like I became the assistant and to the officer that was the survival instructor. And then my third year, I became the instructor running the show and running, training the crews on how to deal with adverse situations. And that’s from weather, white outs, how to tear a plane apart and use pieces of it.
Jason Elkins (22:22.031)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (22:29.016)
for protection, what’s the one, two, three if something happens and you know, it’s get out of the wind. There’s just, and as far as the medical stuff, everybody got a sense of that, how to splint a sprain and breaks and stuff and secure people in order to evac. But, and I had a pal, Paul Dearing and I were just so totally into it.
We were jumping out as high as 16,000 feet above the ground in the United States and landing on the target. And that was the whole thing. were precision. You start off with a great big huge canopy that they used in World War I, I’m sure. You can’t steer it. And worked into high performance canopies. so that was the excitement.
Jason Elkins (23:17.967)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (23:26.51)
And the joy of the lessons learned with my Kiwi friends, the Mountaineers, real Mountaineers, guys that’s their life, that’s what they got paid for. And one guy teamed up with, they were talking about a kid who was back home in New Zealand. They’d say, what’s that kid’s name? That tall, lanky guy. And they said, Rob. He goes, yeah, the kid’s like 15 years old. What’s his last name? Hall. Well, Rob Hall became a renowned.
climber, he and the guy that was I was friends with and talking with Gary started their own their own company. Gary wouldn’t if you were to tell Gary then that you know, hey, Gary, five years from now, you’re actually going to be paid to get people to the top of Everest. And he would say no way. I would never do that. I would never. I’m pure.
I’m this, I’m that. But they had something, you know, and both Gary and of course, Rob Hall, Into Thin Air covers that. It’s Rob Hall. That’s the movie in the book that covers his expedition along with several others, but he was the main hero and he stayed with a guy that couldn’t move and he wasn’t gonna leave him. And he just froze, you know. So.
Jason Elkins (24:38.265)
Sure, okay. Okay, all right.
Jason Elkins (24:52.783)
Wow.
Wells Jones (24:58.153)
Wonderful, wonderful lessons from there. And my mother saying, said, you know, Paul’s not going to get out for another six months. We’re thinking of being smoke jumpers. I found out that we’re not even going to be able to jump out of a helicopter until after two years on the ground doing groundwork. And I said, I just don’t want to do that. And she said, you should go into acting and don’t ever tell anyone that your mother said that to you, but it’s
She said, because the few shows you did, the community theater in another town, she said, just your presence on stage, you’ve got it. And it’s in your background through your grandmother, your dad’s side of the family, stage work. And so I did, went to the, I was in Santa Barbara, I studied, did very well. And we were doing shows again with other people that were just…
at the top of their game with ACT, American Conservatory Theater Actors, were just as good as anything out of the Royal Shakespeare Company. I mean, they were just brilliant. They’re out of San Francisco and they came down for repertory summer in Santa Barbara. And so I just, I was lit and it allowed me to, yeah.
Jason Elkins (26:17.251)
I’m I’m curious. Well, it’s because I actually, I was involved in theater, military. There’s quite a few things here that are kind of interesting. Not at the level you were, probably neither one. But what I’m curious about is you show up for acting class. I’m just gonna say acting class and you can correct me if we should expand on that. But you show up for acting class and they’re like.
Wells Jones (26:28.78)
Really?
Jason Elkins (26:43.139)
Who are you? Where’d you come from? well, I spent the last several years down in Nectar skydiving and parachuting and climbing mountains and all this stuff. And I’m envisioning that you probably weren’t the typical person showing up in acting classes in California. Is that fair to say or am I wrong?
Wells Jones (27:01.134)
Well, no one knew. I kept my mouth shut. really, I never, until I started doing these podcasts have, I mean, to say or to, mean, I did get an acting job because of it. And I said seventh person to skydive the South Pole. That’s in the world. And that happened in 1977. And
Jason Elkins (27:03.677)
Okay, all right.
Wells Jones (27:29.568)
It was Lee Strasburg, John Strasburg’s son. Lee had just passed on. I had moved from Santa Barbara doing very well and getting lead roles and getting wonderful recognition in the press and attention from managers in LA. Known managers. And I went down, they told me what I had to do. I came home and I wrote him a note. Thank you. No, thank you.
Jason Elkins (27:49.092)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (27:58.19)
The note going into that meeting with these managers was, gotta tell them you wanna be a star. They’re not gonna deal with you unless you’re willing to sacrifice whatever they want you to do. And I wasn’t. And what I really wanted to know was to my craft. I didn’t wanna jump into Los Angeles without really knowing what I’m doing. And that goes back to my mom.
Jason Elkins (28:09.677)
Hmm.
Wells Jones (28:28.026)
stick where you are until it’s time to go some and you’ll be tapped. You’ll you’ll be you’ll you’ll know. And so I applied for the American Academy. did an audition on the West Coast and I was accepted. And I got in and went through their two year program and then was invited back to their third year program. In the two year program there there were let’s see.
Jason Elkins (28:34.073)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (28:56.746)
Out of the three awards, the big awards they give, male and female, I got two at the Merrick Academy. And we were on the Winter Garden Theater on Broadway where Othello was being done with Christopher Plummer and…
Jason Elkins (29:03.887)
Hmm.
Wells Jones (29:18.99)
other people. I didn’t, I just, it was hard for me, actually. The school was hard because they said no tricks. And they just whittled me down. This one acting coach, Janice Powell, fabulous. She would sit there and those are the days where people could actually smoke in the rooms. She had a little ashtray and she smoked and she’d sit there and watch the scene. She goes, how did you feel? I said, great.
Jason Elkins (29:41.199)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (29:48.45)
She said, no, I didn’t buy it. Not for a moment. You’re thinking too much. You’re thinking too much. You’re not living. You’re not in the moment. You’re blah, blah, blah. So the acting gave me these things like being in the moment, being calm, being accessible, listening, being aware.
Jason Elkins (30:06.383)
Isn’t that interesting, the connection to your…
Same thing, right?
Wells Jones (30:15.246)
Yes. And it was the observation. It’s like the same with, you know, the first time I heard situational awareness, you know, scan where you are, know where you are, risk assessment. That happened way back in the service. That’s come with me all the way through all these things because I couldn’t make a living acting.
Jason Elkins (30:19.524)
Yeah.
Wells Jones (30:44.802)
So I became a producer director. And the first show I was tapped on the shoulder to do, I would never have applied for the job. It’s not something that was in my mind. I know I needed to make more money to feed my family, you know? But other people saw something in me that they felt, you’re the one. No, I want you.
And I just learned not to stand there and go, no, thank you. I’ve never done that before. I’ve never been a director at the Kennedy Center Opera House for a show with James Earl Jones as the host and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 300 inner city school kids that are going to do song and dance to entertain.
and there’s going to be, know, Mrs. Bush is going to be there and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Jason Elkins (31:50.784)
How did it go?
Wells Jones (31:51.406)
And it was, oh, was, was, it was stellar. It really was. And it was the first round of, the actual first one was at Lincoln Center in Avery Fisher Hall. And that was a jazz show. And Charles Carrault was our host. Do remember Charles Carrault? Do you remember that guy? Charlie, Uncle Charlie was our, our host. And we had
Jason Elkins (32:11.637)
yeah, yep, yeah, I’ve seen him.
Wells Jones (32:20.398)
The jazz musicians from Tito Puente to Lionel, Hampton, people that were around, I mean, it was loaded. It was like seeing Newport Jazz on one stage, the hot shots in one show. And so it was fabulous. And the production company was with my then wife. We were actually together for 29 years.
And part of our deal with, along with children and family and moving and many amazing things accomplished was having this production company. And, but as far as that went, I was the lead and the lead producer and director of the events. And there have been well over a hundred of them all over, did a tribute to even.
Jason Elkins (33:06.063)
Okay.
Wells Jones (33:16.034)
Doesn’t matter, I won’t say names because it gets political, but people where the expectation is very high and the people involved. I had Colin Powell on stage lip syncing how sweet it is to be loved by you in a leather motorcycle jacket with a t-shirt, jeans and loafers. And he’d turn around in the back, it said heartthrob on his jacket.
Jason Elkins (33:23.682)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (33:43.599)
Wells Jones (33:46.742)
It was fabulous. there were four other couples on the stage. The women were dressed in early rock and roll outfits and the men were in these Fonzarelli type, you know, outfits, leather jackets, they say heart throbs. And the names were, you know, like Steve Case from AOL and mean, people. And it was to raise money for a foundation. And so the ideas
the execution, the responsibility, accountability fell in my court. Not all the ideas, because they grew through the group.
Jason Elkins (34:23.353)
Do you?
Right, right, right. Pardon me. Do you mean we kind of touched on a few things that kind of tie the military, you know, kind of being present and, you know, scanning your surroundings and all this stuff. But other than that, what do you think it was from your time in the military that contributed to your success and your production company and, you know, these types of projects? Did you, do you feel like there were some things that really contributed?
Wells Jones (34:35.406)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (34:55.595)
I suspect there were.
Wells Jones (34:55.694)
Yeah, think that it, consciousness, being conscious, being present, listening, knowing how to listen, knowing how to, that started the discipline, organization, being organized. In order to do a production where you have designers and you’re the sign off on it.
on this is good, this is not, we need more, we need less, we don’t have the budget, blah, blah, blah. So it was.
organization, probably, and the discipline and a knowing that it’s going to work out. It’s a live animal. And it’s not just taming it, it’s building, it’s creating it. And that is a takes a mastermind group to do that. Now mastermind, we can look back to certain people, Stephen Covey or someone
that talks with some leadership group. But it’s true that I learned very quickly that I didn’t have to know the details of a lighting designer. I had to know a lot and I had to learn that. And to know the sequence of events that gets something done, starting with the end result. Okay, this is the date, backing it up.
to today and what needs to be done between now and next week now and getting a handle on that. So it was organization. And I heard just real quick in acting, I’ve heard so much about, some people talking about shows they were in in New York. I did a lot of off-Broadway and I did it with Geraldine Page and F. Marie Abraham and just one for Sally Erie. So I was always,
Jason Elkins (36:37.615)
Yeah.
Wells Jones (36:57.966)
tapped at these levels, it was just wonderful. I wasn’t asking for it. It was offered. And so it goes back to the Churchill quote, being ready, which goes back to the first time I heard, prepared to model all the Boy Scouts. But I wasn’t a Boy Scout, you know, being prepared.
Jason Elkins (37:10.2)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Elkins (37:16.655)
Right.
You know, there’s so many things coming up and part of it is, you know, as a young man just leaving Vermont and going on this big adventure and doing these things that not everybody does. I mean, I remember just even in my life sometimes I’m like, well, I used to.
sleep in a hole in the ground, you know, with my M16 or I used to jump out airplanes or whatever, whatever. So when I run into something that seems like a little bit of a challenge, it’s like you kind of like, now wait a minute, this isn’t so bad. I mean, I did not miss my time in the army myself. I’m like, okay, I got that out of my system. But I definitely that sense of confidence, you know, I was 19, 20 years old calling in at
Wells Jones (38:02.504)
Mm.
Jason Elkins (38:09.487)
full of helicopters into my LZ and I’m in charge, you know, or you were doing some of the same stuff. And it’s like, so sometimes those other things just seem so much easier to kind of, I don’t know how to do it, but I have faith in my ability to figure it out along the way is my kind of mantra. And it sounds like you’ve had kind of a similar experience.
Wells Jones (38:12.878)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wells Jones (38:31.178)
I would say so, Jason. It’s, you know, even to this day, even this day, my intention going up the mountain for the sunrise, and I go out early, I’m on the trail at 5.30, and I get up before the sunrise just right when it’s just ready to come up on the top of the mountain. And so it’s not a heck of a long hike, an hour, but it’s fast. And it’s…
Jason Elkins (38:58.073)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (39:00.462)
I said to myself, I want to go as fast as I can, but I don’t want to step on the dirt. I want to step on rocks and boulders. And I’m going to do the climb. mean, it’s literally up and down. It’s like, I don’t know, stair master, whatever. I don’t do stair master, but it’s that kind of a thing, an exercise. And so it’s about capacity. And there was this thing that said,
Jason Elkins (39:20.015)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (39:27.404)
Yeah, well, you didn’t get a lot of sleep or you didn’t, know, yesterday was kind of a big day. Why don’t you just like, it’s like telling learning to say, to dismiss those thoughts and finding out about capacity and learning to treat the body and mind rigorously. And when you’re, when you’re, I stood, I had
Jason Elkins (39:37.967)
think you could do that. Yeah.
Wells Jones (39:54.604)
Mike Love from the Beach Boys, Colin Powell.
Sam Donaldson, who else is in the room? Many people. And these guys, and there’s just men, we were pulled off to the side of the Marriott Wardman Park, big ballroom. It’s 300 feet long and 100 feet wide. We were pulled over to one side so I could tell these guys what they had to do. And when you stop, I stop and I’m looking at…
James Earl Jones, Colin Powell, Steve Case, Sam Donaldson.
Wells Jones (40:39.31)
And saying, and I just like this, okay, guys, this is what’s going on. And then of course, he said, so let me get this straight. And it’s Colin Powell. You want da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da. Yes, sir.
we do that guys, let’s go blow it off. You know, and it was about what they were going to do that evening to entertain 650 people were there to write big checks for a foundation that Alma Powell was the, had been the chairman of the board. You know, so it’s learning it. Well,
Jason Elkins (41:18.127)
Very, very cool. And not everybody can do that. That’s a knack to stand in front of a group of people like that.
Wells Jones (41:27.202)
But you realize that people, and I know enough working at that level, that everyone is vulnerable. Everyone has their thing, their concerns, and it’s to learn to feed them what they need, put them in a position to excel, even Colin Powell. And I said to him, said, his nickname is Collie, Collie. And I said, what you need, you need this comb.
And he’s going, oh, oh, oh. So I can, yeah. While you’re saying how sweet, first you get up there and da-da-da-da, Marvin Gaye. You just do a little calm back, put it in your thing. And he said, got it. Brought the house down. But it’s like, it’s about them. It’s not about me. People say, why aren’t you on social media?
Jason Elkins (42:17.081)
that’s that’s very cool
Wells Jones (42:24.588)
I’ve never been on social media. I’ve never been in a position where I highlight myself until now. I mean, I have a LinkedIn page and I do have a Facebook, but it’s not, you know, it’s not about, I always feel it’s service. I’ve been serving. It’s been adventure with purpose. That’s what the book’s about. That’s what that you see. And that’s what kayak for a cause was about.
Jason Elkins (42:44.897)
And yeah, I think.
Wells Jones (42:53.238)
My meeting Miles, it’s like it says in the book, these two guys met and they were lifelong friends the day they met. It was just like a calm, like, you’re not, you’re cool. Yeah, I think you’re cool too. It was just the end. And it’s been 30 some odd years. Yep. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (43:08.15)
to fit.
Well, let’s get into that, because I promised at the beginning that we would come back around and really dig into the book. And I’d like to start with, where did the idea come about? Maybe the relationship between you and Miles, how did that inspire you guys to go do this?
Wells Jones (43:18.008)
Okay.
Wells Jones (43:30.508)
Well, first, Miles and I worked on a television show called Money Hunt. He called on me because I was an act, I was an act working actor. And we met in church, like it says in the book. And he had a concept to do a television show that we were, you know, he worked it out with his co-host partner at a cable access in Norwalk. Cable access was free.
But it was to bring entrepreneurs that had a business plan, they were looking for funding, and these two guys would rate whether they deserved the funding or not or what they needed to do. So it was in the mid 90s. But it blew open into a PBS series that ran for three years. And we were right on the cusp of six models in six different countries modeling this. It’s pre-shark tank and it’s a lot better. I mean, it was amazing.
It was an amazing, amazing show. Money hunt. So we started there. I went to DC. ran the foundation. didn’t just like the production work that I did. They wanted me to run the foundation as a chief operating officer. And so I took that on. So they got two for one. I was a chief operating officer and I did the producing and directing of the events, the big events, but it was a good fit. Moved, bought a house in Chevy Chase.
Jason Elkins (44:43.481)
Okay.
Wells Jones (44:57.422)
You know, was there four years and got out of there as soon as I could. Came back up through not in Vermont, but into upstate New York, Connecticut, saw miles and the first, this is 2005.
T.E. Lawrence?” I said, yes, I do. No way. I said, yeah, I’ve read Seven Towers of Wisdom. Have you? Yeah. He said, you could play him. I said, I was going to. I wanted to do a one man show when I was back in my acting days. And I found out it was five foot five and a half. And no way. But I think the guy is amazing. He’s an icon. I mean, I loved his story. The movie, you know, lit my fire, Lawrence of Arabia. And then I found out more and
I was thinking, Peter O’Toole, he’s tall, he’s blonde, blue, I’m tall, blonde, blue. I could do Lawrence. And then I found out that being five foot five and a half for him was integral to his whole nature. was his drive came out of that and proving his value, his worth and his strength, his stamina. And at any rate,
We ended up being introduced to a Broadway producer. We’re still with her. It’s been almost 20 years. We’ve had four different writers that we’ve commissioned known people, British, three known. And now we have a woman that’s an American and she has re-conceptualized the play. The play is to bring Lawrence back to life, Gertrude Bell and Faisal to give an inkling on how we got into this Middle East mess.
Miles and I after Nell bought into it quickly. Nell was the executive producer, the Broadway producer. She did Nicholas Nickleby, Mornings at Seven, Amadeus, Elephant Man and something else. And one Tony, she’s major West End Broadway player still. And so we said, leaving her office a few days later, we’ve got to go there. It’s 2005, we trained for eight months.
Wells Jones (47:09.462)
and to follow T.E. Lawrence’s path from Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, up through Aqaba, the fort. We’re at that fort, still there. There was one, there was a turning point in the war. Up through Jordan, taking side trips to Petra, to, you know, Quraish, to beautiful castles, medieval castles, all the way up to Damascus, went further to Homs, and then into Israel. That was our journey. It was a month long.
39 checkpoints, tremendous training before going. We thought about writing a book, but we were working on a play and we were responding to all the different versions of the play, as well as our normal jobs, producing and doing other things. October 7th, 2023, the horror of it all, the level of hatred, anger that has become hatred.
It’s a
Wells Jones (48:14.274)
beyond belief. And it stems from the foundation coming from those days, early days of Lawrence, when he was with the Arabs fighting the Arab revolt. There were promises made that simply weren’t kept, secret agreements that were kept, Sykes-Picot, the Balfour Declaration allowing a Jewish homeland in an Arab area. Right or wrong, everybody’s doing what they think is right.
I’m not judging it. We went to see for ourselves what it looked like. Lawrence loved the region, loved the people. They loved him. He understood the tribes. He didn’t try to change them. He saw who they were as human beings, as well as people in Israel. You know, the Arabs there. There were very few Jewish people there until the Balfour Declaration.
when it allowed the establishment of a Jewish homeland, which is beautiful. Zionists. And so after October 7th, 2023, we said we have to get the book out because our, what we viewed, and yes, we’re observers, but what we saw was very different than the headlines that were happening in 2005. We went in 2006.
We wrote the book last March, not this last, one year ago, March, and we decided to make it historical, nonfiction. And that was a choice instead of a, I mean, historical fiction, not doing nonfiction because we just didn’t want to bore people. didn’t, we wanted to entertain people, to pull them in, to hear the history.
Jason Elkins (50:05.999)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (50:09.976)
So there’s a time travel device, a dagger. And the question is, could this have been Lawrence’s dagger? But anyway, suspension of disbelief drama. A time travel device for the lead characters, Magnus, Miles and Finn, Wells, to eavesdrop on Lawrence in very specific moments of history. So there was a crypt text, you dial it back to a certain thing when they were Magnus and Finn are in certain areas of the Middle East. It’s like, hey, let’s go.
Let’s go, let’s go back in time and see what, you know, experience there is and see what’s going on. And so it gives an accurate picture of the history and the fiction is to entertain as it informs. The book has two young protege’s from a, that met one’s an Arab, one’s a Jew, and they met at a camp called Seeds of Hope, but it’s based on a real camp called Seeds of Peace.
Seeds of Peace received a quarter of our funding that we raised to go to the Middle East back in 2005 and 2006. We started raising money and we identified Seeds of Peace and they’re an organization that’s still around since 1993, bringing Arab and Palestinian and Israeli high school thought leaders together in Maine for the summer on a lake.
to deal with conflict resolution and a new way of resolving issues. And we met with the
Jason Elkins (51:40.655)
Hmm.
Jason Elkins (51:46.147)
Now is that still content? Is that still? You said it’s still continuing this organization. They’re still doing this. Okay.
Wells Jones (51:50.35)
Yes, it should be on in the show notes. It should be in the show notes, Seeds of Peace. In the book, we call it Seeds of Hope. It’s Abdu and Jeremy. Jeremy is a Jewish kid and he’s in the IDF.
And Abdou is, you know, he’s been at the Sorbonne as a student and he’s very international, but he is of Arab descent, Muslim. And there’s another character from the camp, but these fellows look out for each other. But at the same time, Jeremy has to go fight. And who is he fighting?
Wells Jones (52:33.59)
We met with the woman that is the wife of the man that started the organization. John Wallach had passed on and we met with Janet in 2006 and told her our plan that we wanted to, the money we were raising to do this track following T.E. Larnes. She just lit up. She said, this is amazing. And you’re going now. There’s a war going on. We know. Are you ready to do this? Yes, we’re training. We’ve got.
a risk assessment and a special SAS major that is helping us get through this, what to look for, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And technology, we had the latest technology to protect us. And we had a boatload of insurance for kidnap and ransom. And we went through 39 checkpoints. And people say, after you go through a few, you’re probably, go ahead.
Jason Elkins (53:25.775)
Did you have a particular experience that you thought you weren’t going to make it back and all this or were you able to get through it all because of your planning and training? And I mean, obviously you got through it because we’re having this conversation, you know what I mean?
Wells Jones (53:42.158)
Yeah. Yes, I think that as an observer, there were several things that came up. Just to finish off with Janet, she set us up in Jeddah, in Amman, and in Damascus, and in Jerusalem to meet with seeds of peace, former campers. So it was totally brilliant. We were like meeting with an Israeli guy.
Jason Elkins (54:05.924)
Cool.
Wells Jones (54:11.746)
that had been through the IDF and it was trying, you know, he didn’t really want to meet with us, but he, and he was just very closed mouth. He said, look, you know, he said it was tough after doing the camp in the summer. I loved it. I made friends. come home. I have my service. did two years in the IDF. And I just said, was, I said, there moments? He said, yes, without even saying.
I said, how do you feel about your seeds of peace?
opponents. He said I would do anything for them and I have to protect them. I know where people live and there were times when I was able to
to give him a heads up.
Jason Elkins (55:04.269)
Wow.
Wells Jones (55:05.174)
that we use that in the book as well. That they had a code between themselves and they did that. There was a great love of country, of religion, of family.
but total perplexity with these young guys. Like, what do we do? We’re exposed to this and we have to do this, but that’s not what we think.
Jason Elkins (55:30.303)
Thanks.
Jason Elkins (55:34.125)
Yeah, yeah, that’s a tough end. And the thing that just came up, and I know it’s maybe a dream, but jeez, if everybody went to a camp like that, boy, and everybody was protecting the other side, that would really change the world, wouldn’t it?
Wells Jones (55:48.29)
Yeah.
Wells Jones (55:53.026)
Yeah. Well, you would think, but one of the things that came out of the people that went, I said, I, as a parent, they said, what did your mom or your dad think about you going to the camp? Or they didn’t like it. Really? They said, what are you doing this for? And then someone else would say, go, learn, come back and tell us what you learned. So it was both ways.
Jason Elkins (56:22.531)
Yeah, I could see that because if I was a child and growing up in the middle of a conflict and I’m 18 and I say I want to go to this camp to hang out with a bunch of our so-called enemies, that would be like me saying I was going to go to an insurgent camp and learn to do these things. And I could see where the society would be like, you just signed up for the Taliban or whatever. No, I’m, yeah, I get that. I can see that. Yeah.
Wells Jones (56:41.984)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wells Jones (56:47.84)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. And also this story came up twice. It was actually with women, young ladies that said that they were at camp and I don’t know which side it was, that they just got furious. They said, they said, my parents didn’t want me to go. They were very concerned. And, and we actually had fights about it. But I said, I will never
Jason Elkins (56:52.185)
Hmm.
Wells Jones (57:17.23)
like you talk about these people. I’m going there and I’m to show my support for us coming together, but I will never, I am not you mom, I’m just not you and I’m not you dad. Well, they get to camp, there’s a conflict and the first thing that comes out of their mouth in retaliation is the same words they heard at home and they were admitting to us sitting there having tea.
Jason Elkins (57:43.951)
Yeah.
Wells Jones (57:47.02)
you know, in the hotel and just they said, it was crazy. I couldn’t believe that I was saying it. And then everybody’s crying. I mean, and I just ran out of the room and I just didn’t know what to do. And then this person that I was yelling at, I’m underneath a tree and I hear a flute.
Wells Jones (58:12.686)
Someone’s playing the flute. You know, it’s on a lake or under a tree, it’s summer camp stuff. And she opens her eyes and it’s the same girl that she was screaming at an hour before. The girl came out to play the flute next to her as a peace offering. mean, it’s just kids.
Jason Elkins (58:33.023)
But you know what comes up for me when I’m listening to all this? Because it all makes sense. Because I think we tend to oversimplify things. Can’t we all just get along? But if you look at you, you’ve had a family. I was married. I’ve been in relationships. So what comes up for me is like, OK, you can fall in love with someone. They can be the most important person in your life, whether it’s your children, your partner. And when we get upset,
how quickly we go back to our childhood upbringing and how quickly we behave like our father did when he was upset, or we say the things that our mother said to us, to our own children, those same things that, exactly what you just said. I would never talk to my child the way you talk to me. And then…
Wells Jones (59:08.142)
Mm.
Wells Jones (59:18.606)
Boom!
Jason Elkins (59:21.199)
Yeah, wait until that Thursday morning when your kid’s like, nah, I don’t feel like going to school today. And you’re late to a meeting and you’re screaming at them like, get the F out of bed, you little P, da da da da. So it’s not that hard to imagine why we would have situations like you just described. It’s the same situation, isn’t it?
Wells Jones (59:43.15)
It is, it is. Going back to the sense of danger or sense of concern of, we had, Miles and I both took a 35 liter backpack, an offspray backpack. We had a tough book that was new. This is 2006, a brand new Panasonic Toughbook so it can handle the desert.
Jason Elkins (59:44.695)
Yeah.
Wells Jones (01:00:12.908)
We had in 2005, late 2005, they cleared 406 megahertz frequency for civilians. So there was a personal locator beacon that we had the first. It was out.
Wells Jones (01:00:28.322)
this is a personal locator beacon. There’s a band that flies out. You have to triangulate three spots where you press and it’s set to signal satellites overhead and then relay to a place in the United States where there’s information on miles and wells and exactly what to do. And the only time that would get tripped is if we’re in mortal danger. So we had that.
We had a BGAN satellite broadband global access network that perplexed people, but especially at Israeli immigration, because it’s kind of a cream color. It looks like a laptop, but it’s thick, maybe two inches thick. And you open it up and there’s nothing inside. And that’s what people got alarmed. It could be a bomb. And I said, it’s a BGAN broadband.
Global access, satellite connects. we have phone, solar panel, change of clothes, very, I mean, a sleeping bag that went into a little ball and ultra light sleeping bag. And we were prepared and we had training from a man that was a former SAS Irish guard major. He had
that year in 2005 had been appointed, you can look this guy up, appointed Jamie Lothar Pinkerton. He had been appointed by the Queen of England, private secretary to Prince Harry and Prince William as their security guide. He was a partner at Ackerman International Risk Management Insurance Company security group. I don’t know what they are today, but he trained us and
Jason Elkins (01:02:12.471)
Okay.
Wells Jones (01:02:25.42)
Before us, he had trained Ewan McGregor and Charlie Borman for their long way around motorcycle trip. So when we actually made contact with him, because I was looking at Blackwater, Triple Canopy, Centurion, the main groups to see if we could get a course through them, but we were led to Jamie and it was perfect because you broke it down.
Jason Elkins (01:02:46.991)
Okay.
Right, and as far as help us kind of visualize what the transportation process looked like, were you on camels at some point? I haven’t read the book, so help me out. And I’m not sure the book, yeah, the book could probably give me kind of some idea, but again, you mentioned it was fiction. So you guys doing a lot of walking, what did this look like?
Wells Jones (01:03:11.374)
Mm-hmm.
combination. That was the next thing and that was from Jamie, like, how are you getting around? Just like you’re asking. And we found to get a travel company. Hey, a travel company. We’re finally talking about travel companies. Okay. Thank you very much. Peace out. I said the magic word.
Jason Elkins (01:03:28.047)
Wow, we made it. I appreciate you getting back to this well as we talked a lot about theater. Just kidding, which was fascinating and it all ties together. But anyway, you were looking for a travel company.
Wells Jones (01:03:42.99)
I know, I know.
Wells Jones (01:03:47.97)
Well, yeah, in 2005…
We want to go to a war zone. Not a war zone, but we want to go to Saudi Arabia. It’s like, what? No one’s going to Saudi Arabia. There are 19 terrorists, 3 quarters of them from Saudi Arabia. What are you doing? So again, through connections, we were connected with R. Caruso Company. Do you know that name? R. Caruso? We found out.
Jason Elkins (01:03:59.945)
huh. Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:04:19.339)
I’ve heard that name. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Wells Jones (01:04:24.108)
that this, we were told, yeah, last year they put the Chicago Symphony at Machu Picchu. What? They did? Okay, that’s interesting. Well, we ended up talking, I believe his name was Bob, the owner at the time. He’s no longer there. And it is a, I don’t know how it’s morphed. I think they’ve morphed into something else. But we gave him an idea of what we’re looking for, what we wanted to do. We’re following T.E. Lawrence’s path through.
Jason Elkins (01:04:32.096)
Hmm.
Wells Jones (01:04:53.688)
during the Arab revolt. if you want to, if you’re interested in this, we need you to look at Seven Pillars of Wisdom. That’s part of this package. We do not, we won’t go with anyone that doesn’t, isn’t familiar with Lawrence and the places that we want to go along the Hejaz, along the Red Sea, up through the peninsula and get into Aqaba and, you know, hit key places.
Jason Elkins (01:05:02.671)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (01:05:22.996)
And we don’t want fancy travel. We are not going to register with the embassies. We’re going under the wire. So we want drivers in their beat up old cars to take us from one city to another. We’ll show you which ones we want, the route we want to do and where we need drivers, where we need, we’re going to hike or we’re going to do camels.
One, no driver can know another driver. And that was Jamie said, make sure that the driver you have, you get out, they turn around and leave, that that’s the deal. And that the next driver is not where he dropped you off, it’s someplace else and no one knows excepting you. So he said, one of the things you…
Jason Elkins (01:06:17.519)
Really, no one person knows where you’re.
Wells Jones (01:06:20.704)
Exactly. No one knows where we’re going other than our Caruso. And they set it up. And one of the things Jamie said is that just know you are always being watched.
Period. Be aware, which means that where you walk, when you come out of a building, you go a different direction each time. And you go into a building, sleep, get out of there, and you’re gone. Always, if you’re sleeping in a hotel, first floor in the back.
Saudi, if they grab you within the borders. He said, not I’m saying the government, but in Saudi, if you are kidnapped, you’re gone.
In Jordan, Jordan’s very westernized. Less than two weeks before we were going to go, one of the hotels we were going to stay in, the hotel we were going to stay in in Oman, was bombed. Ten days before we got on the plane to go there, to land there. And now it’s the first time. Are we going to stay in this hotel? was like, absolutely. We’re there to experience what the people on the street.
experience. What about the crossing into Israel? Well, just remember when you get to the Israel, have a separate sheet of paper for their immigration stamp. Do not let them put it in your passport because you want to be able to get back into Saudi and different places. And how are you going to cross? The best way, Jamie broke it down. The best way is to fly in all of them. And we didn’t.
Wells Jones (01:08:12.364)
We took cars, got out, walked across all borders.
and took pictures and there were plenty of signs that say no pictures allowed but we figured out how to get pictures.
And we made it. going across the King Hussein-Alam B. Bridge to go into Israel, I mean, of all places to go to Jerusalem, Damascus and Jerusalem, that was, I’m just like, I can’t wait. I just, you know, and by the time we did, we decided to take a bus. And James I, he said, buses get blown up.
And they get blown up right there.
Well, let’s hope we’re not on one that gets blown up. We’re going across on a bus. We did. was, we’re packed like sardines. It’s in the book. That crossing, what we experienced is in the book. That’s it. And when we talk about aggressiveness, it’s not personal. It’s because everyone’s on high alert. The people coming in could be innocent, but they’re not looked at as innocent. Anyone.
Wells Jones (01:09:30.444)
beneath all those layers of clothing, can have a vest. I mean, there’s just so many different ways to create havoc. And so you have very aggressive immigration officers that…
command you, stand here, don’t move.
No messing around. There’s no, hey, how’s your day gone, man? know, usually isn’t it immigration, but you know, but it’s still. And 39 checkpoints and the checkpoints, one was most impressive, right at the, Jordan, right at the Dead Sea. To go to the Dead, we wanted to go to the Dead Sea, was Easter, 2006, Easter day, Sunday for us.
Jason Elkins (01:10:00.858)
Yeah, I get that.
Jason Elkins (01:10:20.633)
Mmm.
Wells Jones (01:10:22.124)
We went to the Dead Sea and Mahmoud was our driver. He came from Seeds of Peace and we just knew that he didn’t talk much. He was a very stocky man, very strong and just quiet. We pulled up to a checkpoint and handed over our blue passport, you know, it says United States of America. And I’m telling you, always at cloud.
Wells Jones (01:11:02.712)
They would say, you’re welcome. We didn’t have issues. We had issues when we were in country going through checkpoints when no one could speak English. And they’re holding a rifle and they’re half dressed and they’re in uniform, they just say, I love, I. And it’s like on a parachute table undoing your bag and they, with a nozzle of the rifle, rifle, not an assault rifle.
Jason Elkins (01:11:06.927)
Hmm.
Wells Jones (01:11:31.79)
the rifle, you know, it could be a 22. It was, and just moving the things around. Hey, well, hey, it’s like the began always they open it up.
Jason Elkins (01:11:42.947)
Yeah, that’s pretty fascinating. I’m curious, were you still married at this time when you did this trip?
Wells Jones (01:11:51.598)
Yes.
Jason Elkins (01:11:53.582)
Okay, I think we need to touch on what did your family, maybe your kids, what was that like? Did you even tell them you were going? I mean, how did that happen? you were married when you went, but you weren’t when you came back, I got it.
Wells Jones (01:11:56.074)
Okay.
Wells Jones (01:12:04.8)
I did and that was the problem. The problem was the retort that came back.
No, no, no, no, no, no, we’re not. No. Living in Golden, Colorado, and Miles’s wife and my wife had a little chat.
Jason Elkins (01:12:24.421)
boy.
Wells Jones (01:12:24.492)
do it. The will.
Wells Jones (01:12:31.318)
And then it came to Karen. Did he ask you? No, did he ask you? No.
Jason Elkins (01:12:42.521)
Yeah, huh.
Wells Jones (01:12:43.798)
And I said to that, you knew I was working on this for eight months. And it really was kind of a weak position. But what Beth did is that she, my wife, had a map of the area. And then each day, because we had the BGAN and a pack light solar panel that could charge everything up, we were sending dispatches every day.
of experience, from Miles’s viewpoint, his going out and mine going out. And so they were able to see those pieces of information and our funders, the people that supported us were getting this information live from the desert. I mean, it was great. It was cool. And so that was good. And so the kids, everybody was following our path daily.
Jason Elkins (01:13:37.456)
Well, were you completely honest with these dispatches and these updates, knowing that your wives and your kids and your supporters were going to read these dispatches? Did you ever find yourself, know, maybe we don’t need to describe the guy going through our bag with the rifle and yelling at us or, or any of those, or that we’re going to take this big, this bus and it’s, you know, just the words, just the things you’re saying, this conversation, where you, did you hold back little?
Wells Jones (01:14:04.312)
Well, that wasn’t in a dispatch. Yes, I mean, we did not hold back that the discussion was on people. wasn’t on…
Jason Elkins (01:14:07.246)
Okay.
Wells Jones (01:14:18.338)
danger, was, we didn’t even talk about, we absorbed all the checkpoints and all of that. What we were talking about was the culture and the people, someone that we met or the history in the area or just a note on where we were. It covered a lot of different things, food. It was like when I went to the…
Jason Elkins (01:14:28.974)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Wells Jones (01:14:45.518)
to the Mount of Sacrifice in Petra climbing up and getting to the top. There’s a wonderful story on, you know, hearing a baby cry. It’s like, we couldn’t see anyone. And then find coming around and seeing a fully covered in abea and black, you know, two women and holding little baby, two babies. And they had a little.
cloth that had little silver trinkets on it to sell to people that came up to the top of this altar of sacrifice, you know, and it was just, or swimming in the, at the Royal Marine Dive Club, going scuba diving and watching a woman that came out of the water looking like, you know, who was it in,
007 that walked out of the water with a knife and a bikini on Halle Berry or someone. I mean, just absolutely stunning shape and tanned. And then two women in fuchsia, fully completely covered, just a teeny little bit on their eyes, opening in their eyes, completely covered that had little fishy like children, a swimming ring around them.
Jason Elkins (01:15:45.603)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (01:16:11.054)
you know, a floaty that had little fishes on it. And watching these two cultures, they went by each other. They could almost brush shoulders. And one’s half naked and the others, I mean, even had little booties on and they jumped into the pool with everything on. And this woman just came out, you know, with a, she had a knife and things like that. The culture and the differences.
Jason Elkins (01:16:12.033)
Hmm. Yeah, okay. I’m picturing that. Yeah, that’s interesting.
Jason Elkins (01:16:30.478)
Yeah.
Jason Elkins (01:16:34.479)
huh. Wow. Wow. That’s pretty, sounds like a fascinating experience. Would you have, would you have been supportive knowing what you know now if maybe that’s just hypothetically, let’s say a year after you went situation still kind of the same. And one of your children comes up to you and says, dad, I’m going to do it. What would you have? What?
Wells Jones (01:16:43.105)
Yeah.
Wells Jones (01:16:59.31)
that no one would say that, even the people that we knew. We kept it totally quiet. And when we announced it, was at each year before Kayak for a Cause, was an organization on the last Saturday in July, kayakers formed a pod of 10 kayaks and they raised money. And we had worked up to 313 kayaks.
Jason Elkins (01:17:03.969)
Okay.
Wells Jones (01:17:27.022)
and pods, so there was 30 pods plus, and of kayakers. And we would have a party on the beach, we’d kayak across Long Island Sound, just under 13 miles, take transport boats back and have a party. And then the money that was raised, we would have a band, pay for a band, pay for food.
And the bands would be like Dicky Betts and the Great Southern, you know, from the Ammons Brothers or the Neville Brothers. I would bring these people in and then we’d give away checks to five charities. We were writing $50,000 checks to five charities raised by these kayakers. And we just spent all the money that was raised between the party and giving it all to charity.
Sorry.
Jason Elkins (01:18:27.267)
Well, was going to ask that I was trying to connect in my head, the kayaks for cause to the book and I got lost a little bit.
Wells Jones (01:18:27.658)
that tied in.
Wells Jones (01:18:32.716)
I’m sorry.
Wells Jones (01:18:37.784)
it has to do with announcing that we were going to the Middle East. Because Miles, that was his brainchild, kayaked for a cause with another guy. And then I was brought in at later point. And then at this annual kind of pre-event party that happens, you know, to get people inspired to raise money, we announced that we were going to the Middle East and the room just went quiet.
Jason Elkins (01:18:59.279)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (01:19:07.182)
And then people started moving, they were like, holy cow, because back then in 2006, there was war. It was just a few, not too far away from the different area. And so I wouldn’t say that I would.
I support my kids. have a son that’s an LA County fireman. He’s stationed in Malibu. He was on the fires that were there. It was nuts. He said 36 hours straight of just insanity of the fire. But they just wouldn’t, they don’t have that gene in them other than Casey to do something like that. My two daughters and my two boys, the oldest boy does have that.
He appreciates what I do. They all appreciate it, but they wouldn’t put themselves, they’re not trained for anything like that.
Jason Elkins (01:20:05.677)
Yeah, well, most people just don’t even have the desire to do that. I mean, I’m pretty adventurous. Most people don’t have the desire necessarily to go do something like that. Maybe they aspire like, man, that’d be cool. But that’s another thing. So, know, well, this fascinating conversation, and I know we’ve been chatting for quite a while. We’ve discussed quite a few different things.
Wells Jones (01:20:21.844)
and
Wells Jones (01:20:32.846)
Mm.
Jason Elkins (01:20:32.911)
I’m just curious, like, what should I have asked you? What should I be asking you to make sure that our listeners really kind of have, they’re not going to get a complete picture of you in this one episode, but what do we need to cover before we wrap up so we don’t leave anything hanging?
Wells Jones (01:20:52.768)
I don’t think anything’s hanging. It’s probably an ongoing conversation that it could be an ongoing. Do you know?
Jason Elkins (01:20:57.889)
I think so. think we could do a whole series of podcasts.
Wells Jones (01:21:03.53)
I do want to say that though I brought up our Caruso and company at the end, they were spectacular and they followed, they really worked with us to have the experience where we could go with our training and our research knowledge and feel covered. And there were times where we did have to call them and to get clarity.
on a particular driver or something, a change was happening on site that they handled. And it was, I’ve never worked with a travel organization. know, my travel and my family has always been, you want to go to Aspen, you go to Aspen, you know, you fly or you want to go to Edinburgh and climb around and go to the different islands. We go, but I know people use.
travel agencies and they’ve become very instrumental in offering just wonderful adventures for people that otherwise wouldn’t go.
Jason Elkins (01:22:12.527)
I think that’s key that otherwise wouldn’t do it. Actually, one of the early episodes of the podcast here, the Big World Made Small podcast, I interviewed a Bodden and I’m not going to say his last name because I don’t want to get it wrong. with, I think it’s B Adventures. He’s from, anyway, he’s from Jordan.
And he was talking about having American clients or just variety of clients from around the world coming in and having these amazing cultural experiences and going to these places and sitting down with families in their houses, eating meals. And it’s like, that’s pretty cool. And that’s not something that most people can coordinate on their own. I mean, hardly anybody. So that’s what I love about the people that we have here on the show, the different adventure tourism operators.
Wells Jones (01:22:32.27)
you
Wells Jones (01:22:47.288)
Yeah.
Wells Jones (01:22:52.279)
No.
Jason Elkins (01:22:58.851)
And we can define the word adventure many different ways. That could be eating street food in Bangkok for a lot of people, or it could, I always say it’s easier to describe what it’s not. It’s not the all-inclusive beach resort. It’s not the big cruise ship. know, anything else I kind of feel like could fit in there. It doesn’t have to be Antarctica or whatever. But yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up because your adventures, yours are very self-sufficient.
Wells Jones (01:22:59.342)
Mm.
Sure. Sure.
I know, yeah.
Wells Jones (01:23:12.378)
You
Wells Jones (01:23:20.418)
Right, exactly.
Jason Elkins (01:23:27.449)
but you still found an opportunity to work with an operator that helped you do something that you couldn’t have done on your own. that’s why we’re having these conversations. Yeah. Yeah. So.
Wells Jones (01:23:34.038)
not, could not have done it. Absolutely. You nailed it. You could not have done that without our Caruso and their attention and Jamie and, having an advisor to where we were going because of where we were going and being able to, you know, being able to meet people on the ground and being invited in to homes, you know, by the men of Saudi.
Jason Elkins (01:23:51.887)
I get it.
Wells Jones (01:24:03.682)
but having meals and unusual food. The book has recipes from what we’ve eaten, what we ate when we were there. And it’s just the commonalities are truly.
Jason Elkins (01:24:11.261)
cool.
Wells Jones (01:24:20.458)
Universal. And the storytelling, you can listen to someone’s opinion. But when you hear their story, it’s undeniable. Right? And there’s empathy. That’s where the empathy, and it’s like, my goodness, different color, hair, skin, clothing. It’s just embrace. Embrace it.
Jason Elkins (01:24:31.021)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, I get it. That’s, it’s…
Jason Elkins (01:24:49.615)
I started this podcast, really came, you I really got it going and came up with the idea when I was in Malaysia. You know, I got my first trip to Asia and I went over there and I’m in Malaysia and people are dressed so differently and you you’d see the women in, you know, sometimes, not always, but you’d see a woman in like a burka.
Wells Jones (01:25:05.74)
and
Jason Elkins (01:25:11.343)
with their kid climbing all over them. You know, or like you described the women in the burka with the swim floaty thing. It’s like, my gosh, these are just people. They’re just like, you know, it’s not that different. And you see a couple walking down the street when she’s in a burka and he’s, you know, he’s got his daughter under his arm, you know, and they’re just like, they’re just people. They choose to do what they choose to do for whatever reason they choose to do it, but they’re still people.
Wells Jones (01:25:11.811)
Mm.
Wells Jones (01:25:18.597)
man.
Wells Jones (01:25:31.19)
Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Yes.
Jason Elkins (01:25:37.839)
And that’s why I was like, want this big world to feel smaller. Big world, you know, it’s like, and that’s the whole purpose of doing this. So I love that we are leaving it off there. We’re going to have a link to the website where they can learn more about you, the book, because this sounds like a fascinating story. I’m really, really happy that you joined us today to share quite a bit. also I really, really appreciate you. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us.
Wells Jones (01:25:55.47)
Mm-hmm.
Wells Jones (01:26:02.69)
Yeah.
Wells Jones (01:26:08.034)
Jason, it’s really been a great pleasure. Thank you very much.
Jason Elkins (01:26:12.72)
A lot of fun. We’ll do it again. We’ve got, we think we’ve got some more episodes to record. So let’s, let’s come back and do it again sometime. All right. Thanks Wells. Bye bye.
Wells Jones (01:26:18.238)
Excellent. Let’s do it. Okay. So long. Enjoy.
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